A

We are almost halfway through the year. And I'm curious, what number planner are you on? Number two? Three, four? Because if you're anything like me, every planner starts with the same promise. This one is finally going to be the one. You know the planners, the ones with 400 pages. The ones that want your 10 year vision, your life purpose, your goals before death and possibly your blood type before you're allowed to write down. Buy dog food. Yeah, you know what I mean, right? It's almost like planner companies believe the more complicated a planner is, the better it must be. But what if that's actually the problem every single time you want to use a traditional planner? Think about it. You have to tab to the right month, then the right week, then the right day. By the time you find Thursday, you. You've forgotten what the hell you even wanted to write down. You know what I'm talking about, right? Look, after years of abandoning planner after planner, I finally realized something. Maybe the problem wasn't me. Maybe the problem was the planner. So I started removing things instead of adding them. And that's what led me to create AOK every day. In fact, we call it the Unplanner. It's a simple card based planning system that keeps your current week or right in front of you, visible, accessible, easy to use. I've spent my entire life abandoning planners. This is the only planning system I've ever been able to stick with. I've used it every day for the past eight years. A few years ago, during COVID I released 100 of these planners. They sold out immediately. Then production costs got out of hand, so I stopped selling them. After years of people asking me to bring it back when I. We're finally bringing it back, but we're starting again with just 100 planners. When these 100 are gone, they're gone. So if you've been looking for a planning system that's simple enough to actually keep using, head over to tracyoutsuka.com planner and grab yours before they sell out. Richard Branson, Michael Phelps, Justin Timberlake, James Carville. Wait a minute. Where are the women? Greta Gerwig, Lisa Ling, Audra McDonald, Simone Biles. That sounds like a list of highly successful titans in a variety of industries. They all have adhd, but you don't hear much about that now, do you? You know what else you don't hear about are the 43% of people with ADHD who in excellent mental health. Why aren't we talking about them and what they're doing? Right. I'm your host Tracy Adsuka. And that's exactly what we do here. I'm a lawyer, not a doctor, a lifelong student, and now the author of my new book, ADHD for Smartass Women. I'm also a certified ADHD coach. And the creator of youf ADHD Brain is aok, a patented system that helps ADHD women just like you get unstuck and fall in love with their brilliant brains. Here we embrace our too muchness and we focus on our strengths. My guests and I credit our ADHD for some of our greatest gifts. And to those who still think they're too much, too impulsive, too scattered, too disorganized, I say no one ever made a difference by being too little. Hello, I am your host, Tracy Outsuka. Thank you so much for joining me here for another episode of ADHD for Smartass Women. You know that my purpose is always to show you who you are and then inspire you to be it. In the thousands of ADHD women that I've had the privilege of meeting, I have never met one, not one that wasn't truly brilliant at something. So of course, I am just delighted to introduce you to Charlotte Hastings. Charlotte Hastings describes herself as a smart ass ADHD woman, psychodynamic therapist and founder of Kitchen Therapy. Originally trained in anthropology, Charlotte has always been fascinated by what makes people tick. Before becoming a therapist, she worked as a teacher and later as head of drama at a school for neurodivergent teenagers. In 2009, while training as a Jungian inspired psychotherapist, she began leading community cookery groups and discovered something that would shape the rest of her work. Kitchens can be powerful places for healing, belonging and transformation. What started as a love of cooking eventually became something much bigger. Charlotte built an entire therapeutic approach around it, bringing together psychology, food, and human connection in a way that is both practical and deeply personal. Charlotte is also the author of Kitchen Therapy, how to Become a Conscious Cook, founder of the nonprofit Kitchen Sessions, and is passionate about helping women with ADHD understand how they're wired, harness their unique abilities, and create lives that fit who they really are. Charlotte believes that growth is an ongoing practice and that every day is a school day guided by the natural world. She prefers to dance rather than walk life's pathways. She lives in Brighton, where she co presents a local food and drink radio show, enjoys easy adventures, good stories and live music. She shares all of this with two of her three grown children, a couple of feline teachers, and an adored husband of nearly 40 years. Charlotte, did I get all that right?

B

Yes, just to Be clear. I've got. I've got three children and two of them live with me and they're all coming backwards and forwards because they're quite grown up now. But it's delicious to have them at home at the moment. And one of them is in London.

A

Yeah, absolutely. I think it's my favorite part of this stage of life is when the kids come back. And they come back as mostly mine are 24 and 27. So I would say mostly full formed adults. They're my best friends and it sounds like yours are too.

B

Yeah, absolutely. It's the humor, I think, because you've known someone right from the beginning and they've been watching you and the way they can make me laugh and also how they can pinpoint where I am and that's, you know, sometimes it's a little bit. Oh, but I'm so grateful for my teachers.

A

I can completely relate. I think that my kids have taught me more than anyone about myself, but also about the world. So we're very, very lucky and I don't take it for granted. Charlotte, what we always do here is we start with the diagnosis story just so our listeners can really connect with you. So would you mind sharing with us what the circumstances were around your ADHD diagnosis?

B

Yeah, for me, I think they were quite difficult and perhaps not in. Not really the classic way, if there is such a thing. I mean, the first thing to say is that I haven't actually gone spoken to a doctor and. Well, the, the doctors have spoken to me and asked me to get a diagnosis and it's something that I chose not to do because I would. I knew myself that it wasn't going to help. So perhaps I'll just take a little help me. So I take a little step back. I was in the middle of a very difficult addiction story and I was always trying to break that. You know, I was constantly in and out of drinking was the alcohol was the substance. And when once again, I found myself drinking, I just googled addiction as an attachment disorder. And that's where I came across the work of Gabor Matte. And I know that his work is like what we say in England Marmites, you love it or you hate it. But for me, what he was talking about was the light just went on. Firstly, I'd experienced the same upbringing, you know, albeit in 1960s in Switzerland, but the. The sort of war zone that he talked about was what was happening in my house. And I think that my father. My father was an alcoholic and I can see he Was always in fights. He, you know, was a lovely, lovely, charming man.

A

But.

B

But he also just really struggled with his mind. And I can see, I understood now. Well, he had adhd, which was. He was drinking to medicate that. It was a really enlightening moment. Oh, my word. Everything that I just hated myself for.

A

How old were you when this happened?

B

Oh, not very long ago. So 15 years ago. Yeah, and I'm 58 now. You know, it was really late in life and bizarre because I'd come across ADHD in. In other people and kind of felt very at home with it and also really enjoyed it, do you know what I mean? And just thought, wow, this is an amazing way to be in the world. I think that the layers of shame and the difficulties that I'd experienced growing up through being different and. And. And the amount of brain fog that was going on, but I think the kind of contrast in my behavior. So one minute I could be super smart and able to be at the top of the class. I was engaged. I was listening and drawing connections and was clearly really focused. The next minute, zoning out, out the window, fairly rude or just absent. And it looked to me and everybody else as if I was doing it on purpose, or at least they were telling me I was doing it on purpose. So I thought, you know, I'm a child. I'll. I listen. You listen to those messages. And I think it really felt, yeah, that I had a choice and that if I just beat myself up a little bit more, I'd be like everyone else. And that kind of habit is still there a little bit.

A

So at the time, were you working with neurodivergent children?

B

Actually, at that point, I'd already left that teaching a job, and I had because of the way the curriculum changed, and I wasn't able to respond to their creativity in the same way. And so I started to train as a psychotherapist. And at that. So I guess the. The words like attachment, you know, and early care were starting to come alive in my consciousness and starting to think, well, maybe, you know, the problems that I've got, which felt like many, as well as having a lot of things about my world that I was really enjoying. Maybe this has got something. Maybe I can understand myself a bit better psychologically. And so, yeah, it took. It took a lot of ground to wake me up, to be honest.

A

Your training as a psychotherapist, and it sounds like you found out about Gabor Matei's work. And so how did ADHD come into that picture in Terms of. Because he talked about it?

B

Yes, because he talked about it and because he explained the connection often between addiction and adhd. He was making those links and understanding that actually I was self medicating, which of course I knew that, but I didn't, I didn't understand what it was to do with. And I'm going to be, you know, honest. One of the things that really worked for me, which is why I have not gone for a diagnosis is amphetamines because they could really give me just one thought at a time. And I didn't feel particularly high. I just actually just felt able to stay in conscious mode, just, I mean I just able to stay focused. And the same thing was happening with alcohol. So he was explaining the links and he described the behavior of, you know, that scattered way of thinking. You know, I was in so much trouble for losing things, forgetting things, interrupting impulsivity, you know, that just wasn't able. Every morning before I went to school or at the end of, I just used to pray, you know, like, please, can I just be like the others? You know, can I not? I just felt that I didn't have any control over my brain.

A

Well, and then if there's so much chaos going on in your family, there's no one to actually help you provide the executive like function supports. Right. You're just led out there thinking there must be something terribly wrong with me because everyone else can do it. But not only do you have an ADHD brain, but you're in this chaotic environment where your needs are just not addressed at all. They're not even recognized.

B

Yeah, I think that that was really, really the case as you know, which is for a lot of people and it's quite a long way in the past where people didn't have any understanding really around this or not, not very much. But I think, you know, what you've pinpointed there is the main thing, you know, the chaos outside was also just not, not in a position to help or understand. And I'd actually, my mother had left my father, so and that was in Switzerland. So we'd come back to England. And my mother's family is very organized, bless them, and really not very adhd. And so I just felt really foreign. And I think, you know, it wouldn't have been good to grow up with my dad. But on the other hand, when I first met him when I was 21, I was like, oh, there I am. And that. And I think Gabor Mate in his explanation helped me find myself as well. And I Just felt really, I was just a complete fish out of water, which I think is what a lot of ADHD people feel until they understand that it's a way of being. And. And the world, you know, I think, has become increasingly formulaic, so that there's, you know, there's one model and we're supposed to kind of fit into that, which I've just. It's such a relief to think, well, that's never gonna happen. It doesn't matter how old I get. It's not gonna happen. In fact, in some ways, you know, with the menopause, it's going back the other way.

A

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Tell me, what kind of a student were you? Were you always struggling in school or were there certain subjects that you just loved?

B

Oh, there were certainly subjects and moments in subjects that I loved. Drama, English, writing, storytelling. You know, I. And anything that engaged my imagination, I was there. And when it was about people and relationships, that. That really captured my attention and finding patterns. So I was really. I just didn't understand maths at all. But when it. Suddenly we were introduced to algebra and I loved it, I was as shocked as everyone else because I was just like, I love this because it was finding patterns and finding. And my brain works really well with that and absolutely loved that. And. And another really captured me was environmental science, which is kind of like geography in. In. In a middle school setting. And I hated the subject most of the time, but then we studied the Industrial Revolution, and I was fascinated by that. So, yeah, I just remember these moments of so much of the time being in trouble, not being able to follow what was going on, and then suddenly being, you know, right at the top of the class and, you know, super enthusiastic. And of course, instead of that being. Well, there were some teachers actually, to be fair, who were really good with me and helped kind of just really nourish me and. And foster that attention when it was there and find opportunities for me to shine. But on the whole, I was really irritating. I'm laughing now. But it was horrible.

A

In what way? Like, you were always asking more questions when you were really interested, and then when you weren't, you were just ignoring everything.

B

Yeah. And causing trouble. You know what I mean? Oh, okay.

A

So you were a troublemaker.

B

I was a troublemaker, yeah. I mean, and I really didn't want to be, but my mouth would be on its way. Well, Own thing going on. Oh, yeah, I was funny. Yeah, I was funny, which meant that I got away with a lot. And I was also, as I Say, because I loved people really, you know, so I got away with quite a lot. But I think the big thing that stands out for me is that it was such a massive contradictions, which I think humans are, you know, but some people, you know, with undiagnosed adhd, misunderstood. You really look as if you're just being naughty when actually your brain is just often just moved on. Like you've just told me what I need to know and I've gone to another place with it and I. And I'm not really that interested in what you're. You've got your agenda and it's just not mine.

A

Yeah, Yep. So. So what about higher education? Did you end up going to school after? I don't know how it works in the uk. I do know, but I always forget. But after what we would call high school.

B

Yeah. So high school. School altogether had been a disaster on the whole. People thought I was really sick or just really. Yeah, idiotic is perhaps a better word. And I was so lucky to get my A levels. So that's. That's our passport into university. And it was a fluke for sure. Possibly they were misdiagnosed, but they gave me the passport to study anthropology and I had no idea that I was going to be able to go to university. And so I just basically looked down the list and I just got to anthropology.

A

Did you even know what that was?

B

No, no, I just read the thing and I said, that's great, I'm gonna do that.

A

And.

B

And I got a, you know, a very good result. I just loved it because it was also with social philosophy and I found that, yeah, it was hyper focused and, yeah, very engaged and again, you know, the same kind of argumentative nature of just looking, you know, the thing is, what comes across as argumentative is actually me just asking.

A

You're interested, you want to know more?

B

I. I want to know more and I want to prod and I want to find the holes. Not to be irritating, but to be. To get further, you know, I'm just really interested. So I was very fortunate to study in the 80s in London, London's Goldsmiths University. I had the best tutors I could have wished for. It really was the subject that I. That was perfect and I had no idea. And that's where I was introduced to the work of Carl Jung. And yeah, it was just one of those incredibly serendipitous moments that has really set me off on a path.

A

So how did you at the time explain the disaster that you called high school you know, how did you juxtapose it with this incredible experience that you had at university? I mean, my understanding, based on what you're telling me, is you left high school and you thought, I don't think I'm that smart. And then you went to university and you realized that, oh, wait a minute, no, I actually am really smart. Like, how did you make sense of all that?

B

Well, I think there was another part of me that is born with quite a lot of confidence, and I was aware that other people thought I was stupid, but I also felt like, that's not true. Do you know what I mean? It was. You know, there's other parts of me that were full of shame about just not letting. Not being in normal intelligence or straightforward. But my intuition told me, do you know what I mean? That when. When I passed them, I thought, yes, I was lucky. I was so interested. And that just trumps everything else, actually, once I'm interested. And I think because I have had moments of being able, I suppose they're enough, you know, children, people don't need that much, really just. I mean, to grow. They just need those moments that deep inside, you know, you know, it's there, but the other messages get so in the way. And it's really about trying to clear those out, which is a lifelong journey, I think, that I really appreciate and gain so much from sharing with other people.

A

Absolutely. So, Charlotte, I am fascinated by kitchen therapy and how it came about. How did an anthropologist, anthropologist, drama teacher, psychotherapist, end up creating something called kitchen therapy? Can you tell us the backstory?

B

Yes, I'll try to bring it in as small as possible, but really it was about joining all of those dots. So in anthropology, we think about the. The ways people eat is one of the ways in which we'll understand who they are. And it turned out that I. Cooking was something that I really loved and I'd always loved. And the sort of background to that is that my mother hated it. My mother hated to cook, and also she didn't like to eat that much. And I had my grandmother, who I spent a lot of time with, you know, a lot of. I stayed there a lot. And she loved to cook, and she was a great cook.

A

Was this your father's mother or your mother? Your mother's mother's mother?

B

Yeah, my mother's mother. So I had come. We'd come back to England and I lived in a house, actually, with my grandmother and my great grandmother and my aunt, as well as my mum. And so I had these Two stories going on about food. And because I was an only child, the way people were feeding me was a language that I could understand. And I think, you know, with this different brain setup, food is a place that is the same for us all. I know we all have different tastes and ways of doing it, but it goes in and out the same way. I wonder, I wonder if there was that kind of unity in there and something that I was really searching for. And so I was a drama teacher where I was working very creatively with people with various different needs. And it was in a boarding school and I didn't cook with young people there, but I had as soon as I'd left home. And even when I was at home, I was just enjoying playing with food. You know, I would just get whatever would be in front of me, just a tin of soup, I would just be playing and adding things to that. And so it was, it was my go to place. I realized now that it was a therapeutic space for me where I could feel at home with myself and feel aligned because, you know, I would be feeding myself, you know, the tummy, the brain in the tummy. I would feel absolute pleasure. Because for me, whatever happens with food, if you use ingredients and you love what you're doing and you play with it, it's kind of always going to be good because I've loved it into being, if that makes sense, which is the, the basis of kitchen therapy. And I'd. I'd left the job teaching young people drama and I'd started my journey of becoming a psychotherapist, which I'd always wanted to do. And at the same time, I started teaching adults cookery in the community. And because I was in those two classrooms, which I, you know, I love studying because that first experience was so good, I was absolutely blessed out to be in Brighton University and studying what I'd always wanted to. So I was very alert, I was very awake, very, very engaged. And so when I was teaching cooking, which was a whole new area full of novelty and allowed me to be who I wanted to be. So I wasn't teaching for an exam, I was just going to show you how to cook the best way for you. So I was giving the recipes, but we were not using measurements. We're just going to put it together and you're going to see how it tastes good. I'm not going to tell you, you're going to find it out. So I was able to be myself in the kitchen and as I was working with people, there were people Again, with quite significant needs. And one of the classroom had autistic young men. And there was one woman in there who was a little bit older than me and just had an anxiety disorder. So she and I were. Were connected because we were quite similar compared to everybody else in the room. And I just took one of those adhd, just put it out there moments. She was very frightened of the way she. She was really anxious about cooking and really anxious about life. And I said, the way you're holding that wooden spoon is the way you're holding life, isn't it? Frightened to touch the edges, you know, and worried what's going to happen. Not able to take in, you know, what belongs to you. Because I would bring in the food for everybody, the ingredients, and she was always giving hers away and not really feeling like she belonged to. So I suppose there was something that I recognized and I just put something out there, just. Which you know, could have been quite rude, I suppose, or. Or intrusive, perhaps, because it wasn't what I was being invited into. But it came out and she looked at me and I think she felt so heard. She was like. And because the food was this incredible metaphor, and it's not. It's not threatening. So if I say to someone, oh, you're really shaking and you look really anxious. Not that you would do that. You know what I mean? If you. If you just pinpoint something, something when you're eyeballing someone, it's quite different for when you've both got your eyes on a saucepan, and we both know we're talking about a cheese sauce at the moment, but something bigger is happening that we can speak through. And somehow that released her to actually. She started telling me about what her life had been like growing up. And as a result of that conversation, which we were able to open up, that's where the idea for kitchen therapy, bringing in cooking in the same way that we might use art or drama as a therapeutic medium. And it was incredible how it joined up back to my anthropology, back to my own childhood, and kind of specific moments as I trained as a systemic therapist doing couples work. Specific moments of my childhood, like making a tea party for my great grandmother's knitting circle. And rather than losing her attention to the knitting circle, there I was, center stage once again. Boom.

A

So this is fascinating because, yeah, I mean, we do hear. We hear about art therapy, we hear about drama being used in therapy, but I've never heard of cooking being used. Doing therapy through cooking. So what is unique about the kitchen, right why is that? Why does that work so well in getting people to share, to open up whatever?

B

You know, as I've researched and experienced it more and more, there were so many reasons, but I think we. What fascinates me, cooking actually makes us human. So there's a very good argument which makes sense to me, you know, the importance of fire, of humans, the way we use fire, which is our first technology, and combined with our hand movements and our mind. But when we're able to manipulate fire and change the resources around us into a meal, we save an awful lot of time. We give ourselves very rich nutrients that available to before. And my goodness, that must have felt good. Right? You know, and we start to actually change a little bit our relationship with nature, which is a whole other conversation. But nature, I would argue Mother Nature has given us the gift of fire. Right? This is, you know, humans can cook their meal. This is actually where our consciousness begins, which is where. Why the title is as it is in the book. This is where. Because we've got a story right here. We've got the before all of those ingredients, we've got the middle where all the plot happens, and then we've got the resolution and we've got a complete story, which is something that, you know, that our time builds upon. You know, that the. The past, the present and the future, it gives us a whole structure that we start to build our brains from, both from the nutrients, but also from this process, because that is our first experience of alchemy, of transformation, and we're at our fingertips.

A

So is there something happening psychologically that makes it such a powerful place for growth and healing?

B

Well, it's an incredible superpower to be able to cook your food, you know, and children very often, I find just, you know, they want to get that spoon and there is that, that sense of creative confidence which is. Begins right there. I think also the thing with the kitchen is in all sorts of different ways, but nearly everyone's got one. Everyone has one to some extent.

A

True, right.

B

And that's the case all from time. So that's what I was, you know, really referring to there. It's at the base of who we are as a human being. So although all over the world we do that differently, we still know what we're talking about. I've often been teaching people from all parts of the world, and we've got a language that we can relate through. It's universal, but also really unique. So I can find out quite a lot about you as a person through your food. Stories and, you know, that I'm going to understand. Does that make sense? You know, because I can relate to when we've got this, we've got this arena that we recognize, but we can also celebrate and inquire about the differences that helps us to really understand you as a particular human being. And I think that's why, one of the reasons why it can really work as a therapeutic arena, because we can relate to it deep down in our DNA. DNA. And you know, one of the things that I really love to think about is our first brain is in the gut. And we quite often call that the second brain. I would call it the first brain because, you know, from the amoeba onwards there's been a digestive system. So that is the first place of growth. And you know, we talk about our gut instincts and so I really think that we can start to come back to who we are deep down in ourselves. And our gut is something we share with every living thing. Everything has a digestive system. And so instead of, you know, that place of complete difference which has really informed my work because feeling so different from everyone else, I have been really searching for the places where we're all the same and at the same time celebrates our complete unique uniqueness and, and our gifts. I just love watching, you know, the way particular people chop, you know, what things look like, you know, because they all do it slightly differently. They like different things in the kitchen. They'll add, you know, different quantities at different times. And I just really love observing that. That helps me to talk to them about who they are and why they are and how they want to be.

A

Okay, so what does kitchen therapy look like? Is it done in groups? Is it done individually? How do you decide? And I'm asking way too many questions, but how do you decide what you're going to cook? You know, is, are you following a recipe? Is it all intuitive?

B

Okay, so the work started with groups and I still run family workshops and, and groups for different types of people who want to come together. So it's a really. As it always has been throughout time. Our word company comes from the Latin companis with bread. So when we eat we also love, you know, and this is a shared space. So I often work with groups. I love taking groups outside where we can be around that kind of, you know, natural campfire and really connect with ourselves. Everyone's got a job job and fits in and coordinates and feels that sense of ownership, belonging and pleasure around one another. So it did begin as an attachment based intervention. Which I would still say it is because our earliest experiences of being fed and loved are always there with us. So I'm connecting into that in groups

A

with everybody who signs up. Then are they all exploring attachment or how do you put these groups together?

B

Yes and absolutely not. So you know, you asked about whether how recipes and so on were chosen. And so often those sorts of groups really are just about having a good time with, with one another and not necessarily directed in, in large groups we won't necessarily be specifically direct directed at therapy but it's more therapeutic does that if that makes sense. So there's a little bit of a difference that it gives us a sense of feeling about ourselves, a sense of resourcefulness which is really important of being able to find out working in a group sort of I suppose it's like a team building exercise you could say. And then I also work with couples and individuals and, and, and children, young people that. And there we will be more goal directed around what it is they, they have come for. So I have a young person that I'm working with who has arfid where they are refusing foods because they, they can't compare them. And so we're being really playful with the foods and talking about the foods as characters. We're building up a video game so that the vegetables can, can speak through and have superpowers and we can understand how, how they fit together. So we get to know each of the vegetables, each of the ingredients, we get to know who they are and then we can feel a bit more friendly to them. And I'm really lucky where I live and I will quite often do this with, in garden spaces outside. So I go and dig up the vegetables so that. Or forage for them so that people can actually see where their food is coming from and feel that sense of connection which underpins everything that I do. Those, those kind of patterns and feeling that sense of human connection, whatever that might be, is how we work. And with couples it can be a really lovely place to see people's patterns, people's different approaches and so that we can talk about them just as different approaches, how they might be connecting or disconnecting with one another, but in a non judgmental exploratory sense. And if we don't do anything else we've got a lovely meal at the end of it.

A

So what is it that you see happen in a kitchen that you don't see happening when you're sitting across from someone in a therapy office? Is it especially I'm thinking for an ADHD brain. To just sit there is often difficult, whereas we probably can process and talk better when we're doing something with our hands. You're moving.

B

Yeah, absolutely. I think that you're always getting somewhere. And it means. George. I mean, so we're always kind of on a journey and on a physical journey, and we are connecting our mind, body and spirit in that way, which I think is. Yeah, is key to this approach and how it's worked for me that I, you know, I'm feeling kind of engaged with all the parts of me. So I think that that is often how it works in the kitchen for an ADHD person. But I. I can also think that sometimes that can work online or in talking conversations, because even if we're just exploring a meal, exploring you as a cook, exploring early memories around food, I've got your memory and your body memory engaged. So it's not necessarily in the practical kitchen. And what I tend to do is with people is that we do a mix, so that, you know, one session is never, you know, they're never the same, which is probably for more for my benefit than theirs. I don't know.

A

Although I would think that, you know, if people, if they're hesitant to try therapy, the attitude could be, well, if the therapy doesn't work, at least I've got a meal at the end.

B

You know, for a lot of people that it's just, we need a result and I need a result the way I work. So. Or at least, you know, that that can be really, really, really helpful. And the thing is that the focus in our world is so on the physical product, you know, on the actual food we eat. Are we eating the right supplements? Are you eating the wrong things? And that focus is all like, yes or no, really. Do you know what I mean? And it's limited on the physical food itself. Now, as I've said, I'm really hungry and I'd like to have those results. But what I'm really interested in is the process, in the psychological and spiritual nutrition that I'm getting from a meal, because, to be honest, I trust is always going to be good. It might not be my favorite meal, or it might be, I'll never do the same thing again twice, so I'll never know

A

such an ADHD thing. I, you know, I remember when my daughter was, I don't know, in grade school, and they had to write down about holiday traditions. I think it was Christmas, Christmas traditions, like, what are the foods you eat? Blah, blah, blah. And my daughter was like, our Tradition is that there is no tradition. The tree is different every single year. What we make is never the same. And I felt bad because even to this day, it's not like I have a binder with all, like, family favorites, because I barely ever make the same thing twice. Like, what the hell.

B

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And that's why. Yeah. So the. The book, you know, where there is a bit of a binder of these kind of family recipes that have come together. And so it's not. So I do cook, you know, these kind of specific meals, but how I get there really has to. You know, it really is a state of flow where I'm not. Yeah, I'm just enjoying that moment. And, you know, sometimes your carrots will be, you know, really quite tasty because of the time of year or the nature of them, and sometimes they'll need a bit of sugar to help them along or. Or some other spices. Just. I mean, so it's. It's going to. It's really about allowing that meal to speak for itself. I really think about it kind of, you know, you're. You're. It's like bringing up an ADHD child or. Or any other child, actually. It doesn't. But that you. What you're doing is following them and allowing them to be their best selves and really enjoying that process. And if you've enjoyed that process, it's always going to be good.

A

So does that mean, Charlotte, that when you run these workshops, individual group cook yourself, are you never following a recipe? Is everything salt, fat, acid, and it's learning how to balance that. Is that how you cook?

B

Yeah, absolutely. I'm really interested in developing people's creative intuition. I'm really interested in the fact that the word educate means to bring forth. And, you know, when I work with little children, I tell you what, they can quite often cook really well. Do you know what I mean? Because they haven't learned that. They can't yet. They have. Not necessarily. Well, they can't necessarily read, so. And, you know, our ancient ancestors didn't have measuring scales and they. They didn't have an ingredient list, but they got on with it. Little facts really fascinate me that today we know that if you have fish and eggs, you've got your complete amiga range that you need. And the recipe, an old recipe for fish pie has eggs in it. So our intuition, our knowledge, and there's so many points like that that, you know, science is now showing us, and recipes are showing us why and how, but actually, our ancestors are the People, that's that knowledge, that ancestral knowledge is within us. And I'm really interested in connecting with that and allowing it to express itself. And, you know, because I'm quite happy around taking risks. Risks. And that's, you know, one of the benefits of growing up like this. You know, I'm used to things going wrong. I'm used to having to fix stuff and finding solutions and, you know. Yeah, I am very comfortable with chaos. It feels good for me to kind of, you know, have a lot of different things going on at once in these family workshops. I'm really thinking around at the moment, and. And, you know, those people really connect with that because they just have this freedom to find out rather than be told. And that's. That's really important to me that we can. We need to do more of that. Of. Yeah. Exploring and valuing that as the meal. You know, the exploration or the journey, if you like, is the meal.

A

How did you learn how to cook that way? I've told this story many times, but when my. Actually, when I was first married, honestly, since I was a little girl, I love to cook. And then when we were married, we just did a lot of entertaining. You know, when the kids came, we did probably even more entertaining, but more kind of family sort of food and what we made. And I was such a good cook. I was also an extremely confident cook. I would pull out the French laundry and I'd make a meal out of there. No issues whatsoever. I did have some problems following recipes, meaning.

B

But.

A

But I. I never messed anything up. Like, I always was able to fix it. Then came perimenopause, and today I feel like I don't have the confidence, and how could I not after decades of cooking? And so I don't really like to cook anymore. And what I was thinking is, well, it's because you've always learned how to cook with recipes. So my husband does most of the everyday cooking, and all he cares about is that it's healthy and he does it. He never follows a recipe. And so, honestly, it never tastes that great, but it's healthy.

B

Yeah.

A

And so I'm always on him about, can't you just follow a recipe? Like some seasoning? Like, you know, he'll just say, I'm gonna throw turmeric in there. And then he'll throw a pound of turmeric in.

B

Oh, yeah.

A

How are you eating this? So, you know, I'm scared to do that intuitive kind of cooking, because in my experience, unless you're a classically trained chef, I'VE never found it to be particularly good. Like, how do you learn how to cook like that, where it's actually good? Because I know that I still know what good food is. I really do, and I still really enjoy it. But I always think that, well, if I could cook more intuitively, I wouldn't have to deal with the recipes, which. That's the problem where all of a sudden, I completely miss an ingredient. I forget to buy things in the store, like things that never happened before, and now they are.

B

The thing is, they've always happened to me. Just this little story came to mind. I made a chicken p. Forgetting to put the chicken in, and I went.

A

It was a vegetable pie.

B

Yeah. Worse than that. I was like, what is going on? Oh, no.

A

Chicken.

B

No.

A

And was it literally just sitting there or was still in the refrigerator?

B

Yeah, no. So, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. No, I hadn't actually forgotten to buy. It was a roast chicken becoming a fish pie. So this is a really interesting question, and lots of thoughts are going off in my mind. So I suppose right there, I'm just saying I do make mistakes. It's just that because I am used to that, I find ways, you know, you. I. I taste test it. And I think that in the kitchen, what I've realized is it is the place where I really am confident, because. Not because I believe, because I'm not the world's best cook, right? I. I'm not classically trained, but I love it. I love food. And so all of that other stuff goes out the window. And I think the big thing that happens for me is my grandmother was an excellent cook. I mean, really good. And so those lessons that I didn't know I was learning are with me. And, you know, that. That kind of is deep inside me. If I don't know if I want to cook something, I go to three different sources, at least, or, you know, a few different sources, and I read through what. What they're telling me, and I picture it and make sense of it in my mind, and I come up with my own solution. And so that is, you know, where I think the. The strength really lies, is that I'm always doing it my way, but I'm not doing it on my own. Do you know what I mean? So I'm not trying to completely freestyle it. I appreciate the knowledge and the experience and the talent that I'm drawing upon. I really have absolute respect, you know, for. I mean, I. I'm just blown away, really, by, you know, culinary talents and, you know, all technology. I just think, God, humans are just these ingenious little beings and they can, they can do this, and I'm just another human being and I, you know, I. I can do this. So obviously it is a, you know, a particular, like you say, you know, everyone's got. Got their particular gift, and mine is around. Around cooking, really, in that my approach to it is. Is very open and it really clicks into that solution. Finding talent that I think I have. You know, I find those patterns.

A

Okay. But I'm thinking about. So my mother was a phenomenal cook, and so I learned so much from her. And from a young age I was. And, you know, like Julia Child, she would literally, she'd buy the book and she'd go through the whole book from beginning to there was a whole series of gourmet. You know, she. She was so interested in it. And so I think a lot of that rubbed off on me, so I became a good cook. You said your mother hated to cook, but your grandmother loved to cook. So what was that about? Why did your mother hate to cook? And what's interesting is it sounds like your mom had a real linear brain.

B

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And so therefore she would think you had said something.

A

And so I guess my real question was, do you think that this is just. Some people are just innately really good at cooking and other people just have no interest, and so they're never going to be good at it. Which is a lot of ADHD women, right, who hate cooking.

B

Yes, absolutely. Really big question. I suppose one, when I started teaching cooking, people would come because they hated cooking and they knew that they needed to do what. I mean, they've still got to cook a meal. Actually, the lady who, who I spoke, spoke about earlier, she hated cooking, Right. And she is the one who started kitchen therapy. So not everybody's going to be the best cook. But that course that I was teaching was called Learn to Love Cooking. Because if you can learn to love feeding yourself, this is the first base for healing, you know, so, like, your husband knows food needs to be healthy. It does. Right. We. We are feeding our bodies, but we're also feeding our mind with messages. And my mum' message, for all sorts of complicated reasons, was, I hate this food. But there were. Although, yes, there's a linear brain, but I've worked with so many wonderful cooks who are very linear and they're great and they can do things that I can't do. Yeah. Follow a recipe for a start, which is nice. And remember what you've done, which is super.

A

Oh, my gosh. That's gotten so bad. Did I put the salt in? Did I put the baking soda? Oh, no. Did I forget to measure it? So now I'm gonna go add more. Like, what the hell.

B

Yeah, well, that was the. I get away from that because I just don't measure anything.

A

You just taste it, and then, you know.

B

Yeah. And I have a little rule. You can always add more. So, you know, just. It is that way of just finding. Giving yourself permission to. To find your way in the kitchen. And I think that we come at the kitchen with these stories in our mind, and I came with a story that there was a lot of pleasure and sense of trust and connection and belonging in the kitchen. So I come at it with that, which is what I'm hoping to share with people who didn't, you know, And. And I know what that feels like, because my mother's kitchen had to be spotless and because. For not to use things, you know, because that was the way she needed her life to be.

A

Were there actually people who showed up, up, hated to cook, and by the time they ended the program, they loved to cook?

B

Absolutely. Absolutely. What's the difference? I. I think it is just having fun for a start, you know, and taking out the perfectionist, you know, and removing that sense of everything's got to be right and doing it together. So there were groups of people, and we could see that people are doing it differently. And rather than judging o, you know, that actually we just take an interest in the differences and just try to take an interest in the process. So that's what kitchen therapy, the basis is. Let's. Let's not concern ourselves with what it looks like and what it tastes like so much. All right? Let's use ingredients that we get to know and we appreciate, but let's really enjoy this journey of getting there so that we've kind of got a different slant, because I think that is where people hate the kitchen. They. They come with a preconceived story. So let's try and understand that and listen to it, but also realize that stories can be retold and stories. You know, that's the wonderful thing about narrative therapy, that it's. It's there to be interpreted, and we can switch that up and we can do something different. We can just make small tweaks, like finding out what it is. That is the block, because we all need to eat, and food is an experience of love. So where people are saying that they don't like it and they hate it, there's something really important in there. Do you know what I mean? There's something happening in there that we don't have to force a change, but it is important to listen, to talk more about that.

A

What do you mean?

B

Food and love are absolutely entwined. So when the baby arrives there and they're being fed, they have that experience of being loved and they lock eyes. So where we talked earlier about my children being my best teachers, when I had my first child, I thought to myself, you know, there she is feeding. I'll just make a couple of phone calls or write some notes, you know, do a ton of other things. And she's like, you're gonna do that? You need to look at me. Because it's a bit like saying, right, I'm inviting someone for a meal. There it is. Put it in front of them. I'm just going to go on my iPad. Yeah, that's all right, isn't it?

A

On my phone?

B

I know, I know. No, no. And so the thing is that what is happening there is the baby's brain is being wired, as in. In. In that maternal gaze. So something really important is happening there. So our relationship with food as. As Mother nature has set it up, is right there in the beginning in our relationships. Company with bread, you know, it is. Is right there in the heart of our spiritual rituals. And I think that if it is our defining feature, it's one of our defining features. And so nature doesn't make mistakes in how she creates her menu plans. And little children, you know, they'll take that spoon, their feeding spoon. They take charge of it. It. This is the first place I start to say, this is mine and that's yours. So we. All sorts of learning is happening there. To make a meal, you takes a village, you know, you have to coordinate different people who is going to plant the seeds, look after them, sell them, get them to your house. You know, it. It requires a huge coordination of effort. When people say that they hate to cook or that they're scared in the kitchen, we need to investigate that because there is. There's information there, right? And I'm not saying I want to change you, you know, if you don't like cooking, that's fine, but we do need you to eat well, right? This needs to happen. And it is that first place of experiencing love. So right here is where when I cook a meal, you know, I. I really take time to make something that I like. And if nobody else likes it, then hoorah, because there's more for me. And you know, that's. I think that taking that approach and also not expecting people to do it on their own. I think a lot of ADHD women are in the kitchen on their own, trying to manage all these other different demands, and somehow we need to kind of. I hope that something of this conversation says, let's prioritize this for now, right? Let's look at the reasons why and let's give it a go. So, you know, I'm really hoping that you and I will maybe have a little exploratory conversation around managing perimenopause or with your cooking history, you know, of being a great cook and obviously loving good food, you know, so it'd be a really lovely place to, you know, just to be able to talk about, because that is. Is quite. Can be quite a safe place when we talk about it at a distance. People. I know people's barriers are coming up saying, I hate it. It's too much. I hate the mess. And those are challenges. I. I do hate washing up, that's got to be said. But life. Life is challenging, isn't it? And the thing is the. That it is. Can be difficult challenge to meet to cook a meal. But there's many challenges in life, and this is one that's actually achievable and actually necessary. Do you.

A

Yeah, we. We all have to eat.

B

You have to eat. And you also need relationships with people and. And the food is, you know, meets those needs for us. And most importantly, I think it meets a need for ourselves to go back to our younger self and just say, you know, I really care about feeding you. Because when we're saying, I can't be bothered to cook, we're actually speaking to that little child, you know, and saying, I can't be bothered. It's too much trouble. This is what I think we have to remember.

A

And what does this say about society? Because we are definitely going in the direction of not bothering to cook. We're just, you know, either going out or we're ordering in. 100% not, you know, cooking for other people, not having company over.

B

Yeah, absolutely. And I can get a bit ridiculously emotional when I just think about, you know, the Deliveroo. Do you have delivery in the States?

A

We do. I can't do it. It. My kids do it. And, you know, I guess this, you know, other people do it, no problem. But there's just something about it that it just seems so disconnected from.

B

That's exactly right, Tracy.

A

Even ordering food in, I don't do. Because what's the point I made someone else cook my food. Then you're going to come into my house, make a big mess I might as well make myself or I'll go out and eat, you know, but that's my opinion. I just can't do it.

B

Yeah, absolutely. And I just think about, you know, the, as the word that you use, there is disconnection. And you know, when I especially working with young people, because they're just sort of, you know, shiny and you know, someone says, God, this is really good. Who made that? And this hand goes up, you know, I did that. And you know, they can just feel that sense of, yeah, yeah, can do. And I just really feel, you know, these people are making food so far distant from where it's going to end up. And I think I'm so pleased that you just thought about, you know, what's going on in our society because I really believe that if we can take a new approach to how we feed ourselves and really understand our profound connection and stop thinking about the perfect meal and focusing on the physical because that's always got its limits and that makes us competitive, you know, and then we're judging who's the better cook than who. Well, I don't care who's a better cook because I haven't got that answer. You know, all I know is someone better, yet there's always someone better.

A

You know, the other thing about cooking too is there is a beginning, a middle and an end. And there's so little in life where in that short period of time you have that complete cycle.

B

That's exactly right. And I think that's where the ADHD really needs those tangible results which can help keep and develop an attention focus as well. I think that's what I've already noticed, that it can hold my attention because I will start a meal. I do normally need to be a bit hungry before I start cooking, otherwise I haven't fully, I'm not fully in it. Do you know what I mean?

A

So again, I'm going back to. Are there certain rules that you teach about? Like I always make jokes. If I have butter, an onion, some garlic and an herb, I can make anything taste good. Good. And you know, that's just a made up in my head kind of a thing versus, you know, like my husband, he, he would use an onion, he would never use butter, he rarely will use an herb. And if it is, it's dried out of a shaker thing. Oh, and, and salt, I need salt. He won't use salt either. So because the focus is so on health and God bless him that he does, because I would probably not eat as well as I do. And yeah, it might not taste good, but it's good for me. But still, it's like, you know, it's these little things that, to me, those are kind of part of the formula. And so is that a formula that you teach in terms of how do you balance salt and fat and acid and.

B

Yeah, the way I teach it actually is about building a party so that you've got your. Your foundations, you know, that you've. You've got your celery and onion and possibly garlic, often ginger, maybe carrots in there. So you've got that kind of basis from which you can create a few bits of interest, invite your main characters, and then you've kind of got the. The cabaret, the lights that go on with adding flavors. So I'll. I'll teach it from that way that we're kind of building something. And I also teach that each ingredient that we use, you invite them into the pan and you welcome them and you seal in their flavor. So that has a psychological aspect, isn't, in that we're welcoming and appreciating each ingredient as if it's a character, as if it's someone that we're enjoying. We notice how good it's smelling and how good it looks. Looks. So we're engaging the senses and you're

A

being in the moment, right?

B

You're being in the moment and you're being playful. And because of that engagement, then you go, oh, yeah, that smells, right? Oh, that's burning. I can smell that. I can hear. Something's too fast. So it's engaging those senses and having, you know, a basic structure that you've got those things that kind of make the basis of a meal. And then you have your main character and by giving it a story and by giving the ingredients characters and also by enjoying them as well as being quite funny with it. And maybe I will try and bring in some memories around that as well, which works really wonderfully with all people, actually, because this is. Memory is lodged in here. And now I can engage and understand that process and I'll go away knowing it. Whereas if it's in a book, book, I'm just going to forget it. But if I've engaged each of my senses, then I am remembering. And the more personality I give it, the more kind of connections I make, which is a, you know, really exciting. If you can think that each time you cook a meal without a recipe. I mean, I'm not saying I just go in and just completely wing it. I'll have an idea what I'm cooking. So you need that physical aspect, aspect, you know, of roughly what you're going to cook for whom, at what time those things need to be in place that guide us. But it's actually that kind of process of getting there can evolve and that keeps that novelty alive and keeps that interest going. So, you know, a little. Yeah, it is. I do have ingredients that I suggest people keep in their store cupboard and I list that up for people of fresh ingredients and ways of remembering to put that in into your shopping and, you know, and try and follow people's own formats because we all work differently and I love finding out, you know, the method that's going to work for individuals of keeping their stock cupboard ready for action because that really, really helps. You know, we really need that some of that step covered and working out how we're best going to do that and how we're going to cope with the washing up, which is dreary. But the thing with those, those problems is that they are solvable. Just. I mean, so many of life's problems are so challenging and, and might not have a resolution, certainly not here and now, but this has. And if we can is. I think it's maybe it's a bit like cold water therapy. You know, if I can manage this and just get my system used to managing the stresses and finding my talent, you know, finding out who I am in the kitchen is really exciting and going with that and just enjoying that, you know, maybe I am really linear and I like to know how much. And Charlotte is very annoying that she'll never tell me.

A

Okay, so that leads me to my final question for you. Such a great segue. So if you walked into my kitchen, what would you learn about me in the first five minutes? Because I. And I'm thinking again, you know, with my husband and me, so everything, if I slice an onion, it is absolutely perfect. You know, I do the whole grid thing and it just drives me nuts to eat something and I think it's just a texture thing. My husband, we've been married for over 25 years and he could care less. And there'll be this big chunk of, of onion in there and they're all different sizes and I'm like, yeah, well, I am completely neurotic about this and he doesn't give a damn.

B

Right? Yeah, yeah. So we've got something about your sensory perception. We've also got something about things being neat and Things being, you know, in a pretty. Yes. And in a style as well, which I think maybe you've learned from. From your mother. So, you know, we've kind of got these connections that are happening. Give us a little bit of a picture of you with onions, and then we might have a look at how you are with carrots and see. See.

A

Less neurotic.

B

Yeah. Different thing altogether. Yeah. And so it would be interesting to think what your, you know, what. What the memories that have come up. And we can see some differences in how you approach different things in the kitchen and, you know, finding your playfulness. So I might, you know, see there the very tidy and very pretty Tracy and I would always be looking to see where can I find the messier side?

A

Oh, watch me cook, honey. Oh, my God, I am a disaster. And that is where my wonderful husband always comes in. Like, he is the one who. And it's weird. It's like the bigger the kitchen, the more I fill it, you know, so.

B

Yeah, so that. So. So right there. So I. I would just be letting you talk to me about what you're like in the kitchen, and that's a really wonderful metaphor for something for you, of just, you know, that you will fill that space and you will enjoy that and really kind of be yourself in. In a. In. In the kitchen and in life and. Yeah.

A

Oh, my gosh, you're absolutely right. I think how you are in the kitchen is literally a metaphor. Right. For life.

B

Yeah, absolutely. And also those contradictions, you know, that we can be different and allowing those. And to look at those places where we do make mistakes and get. Get into a bit of a muddle and say, oh, so, you know, what. What's. What's happening there? What's the story? And. And I think the trick is to really enjoy that. Do you know what I mean? And. And find. Yeah. Find out what it's about and. Yeah. Engage the interest.

A

I think. What. I'm a big baker, and. Or I was now, you know, the kids are gone, so who am I going to. I can't eat all this. But I love baking and I love decorating, you know, like cakes and cookies and things like that. Or I used to. And what I learned as a baker was, you know, people, they'll bake something and the cake will fall on one side. They'll, you know, something. It'll crack, and they panic. And so to me, it's like life.

B

Right.

A

No, anything is fixable. You can cobble anything together. And so that is what I learned. And so People would say, oh, my gosh, you know, you're such a good baker. Look how beautiful they. This isn't like you have no idea where it started, but you just. I just kept working on it. Right. And figured out how to fix it. And I think that's life.

B

That is life and that is you. Yeah. I mean, so other people just throw it away because it's no good, because it's correct. You look for the solutions, you look for the joy.

A

It's always fixable. So, Charlotte, what is your, your number one ADHD workaround? Do you have one?

B

Well, I was, I was thinking about this. I think what it would come down to is really enjoying my chaos, you know, and realizing that that chaotic brain is really valuable. And, yeah, my greatest asset, really. I did think about, you know, putting the ADHD into some, some different words. So that was attention directed. Healthy diet.

A

Healthy diet. I love that.

B

I love that. So it's just, you know, putting in your attention because there is some, you know, those words around deficit and that, you know, I'd really like to work that around and think, actually, let's redirect it or, you know, let's direct our attention. And as I've been trying to express, I think food and cooking is a place that we can learn to do that if we don't already. That's even better because that gives us really rich ground to work with you and to find this, find your sense of pleasure and release that. Absolutely.

A

So, Charlotte, where can people find you if they want to know more about you and what you do?

B

Well, my website, therapykitchen.co.uk has all the links on it and I am on the Instagram, although I do find social media a little bit tricky to keep a handle on. But I'm Therapy Kitchen on there as well. Charlotte Hastings things. And so you can, you know, I'm always, as you can imagine, very keen to talk about things with you. So do, do look me up and, and come say hi.

A

Wonderful. So it's therapykitchen.co.uk and Instagram is Therapy Kitchen.

B

Right, Perfect. Yes.

A

Wonderful.

B

So much wonderful.

A

Thank you, Charlotte, so much for spending time with us here today and teaching us about. About therapy in the kitchen. I had never heard of this and I just, when I did, I thought, this is. I think this could really work. And clearly it has. So that's what I have for you for this week. If you like this episode with Charlotte, please let us know by leaving a review. Our goal is to change the conversation around adhd, helping as many women as we possibly can learn how their ADHD ADHD brains work so that they too may discover their amazing strengths. Thank you so much for listening and I'll see you here next week. You've been listening to the ADHD for Smartass Women podcast. I'm your host, Tracy Otsuka. Join us at ADHD for smartwomen.com where you can find can find more information on my new book, ADHD for Smartass Women and my patented your ADHD Brain is AOK system to help you get unstuck and fall in love with your brilliant brain.