Episode 391: What Happens When a School Is Built for ADHD Brains

A

We are almost halfway through the year. And I'm curious, what number planner are you on? Number two? Three, four? Because if you're anything like me, every planner starts with the same promise. This one is finally going to be the one. You know the planners, the ones with 400 pages. The ones that want your 10 year vision, your life purpose, your goals before death and possibly your blood type before you're allowed to write down. Buy dog food. Yeah, you know what I mean, right? It's almost like planner companies believe the more complicated a planner is, the better it must be. But what if that's actually the problem every single time you want to use a traditional planner? Think about it. You have to tab to the right month, then the right week, then the right day. By the time you find Thursday, you. You've forgotten what the hell you even wanted to write down. You know what I'm talking about, right? Look, after years of abandoning planner after planner, I finally realized something. Maybe the problem wasn't me. Maybe the problem was the planner. So I started removing things instead of adding them. And that's what led me to create AOK every day. In fact, we call it the Unplanner. It's a simple card based planning system that keeps your current week or right in front of you, visible, accessible, easy to use. I've spent my entire life abandoning planners. This is the only planning system I've ever been able to stick with. I've used it every day for the past eight years. A few years ago, during COVID I released 100 of these planners. They sold out immediately. Then production costs got out of hand, so I stopped selling them. After years of people asking me to bring it back when I. We're finally bringing it back, but we're starting again with just 100 planners. When these 100 are gone, they're gone. So if you've been looking for a planning system that's simple enough to actually keep using, head over to tracyoutsuka.com planner and grab yours before they sell out. Richard Branson, Michael Phelps, Justin Timberlake, James Carville. Wait a minute. Where are the women? Greta Gerwig, Lisa Ling, Audra McDonald, Simone Biles. That sounds like a list of highly successful titans in a variety of industries. They all have adhd, but you don't hear much about that now, do you? You know what else you don't hear about are the 43% of people with ADHD who in excellent mental health. Why aren't we talking about them and what they're doing? Right. I'm your host Tracy Adsuka. And that's exactly what we do here. I'm a lawyer, not a doctor, a lifelong student, and now the author of my new book, ADHD for Smartass Women. I'm also a certified ADHD coach. And the creator of youf ADHD Brain is aok, a patented system that helps ADHD women just like you get unstuck and fall in love with their brilliant brains. Here we embrace our too muchness, and we focus on our strengths. My guests and I credit our ADHD for some of our greatest gifts. And to those who still think they're too much, too impulsive, too scattered, too disorganized, I say no one ever made a difference by being too little. Hello, I am your host, Tracy Otsuka. Thank you so much for joining me here for another episode of ADHD for Smartass Women. You know that my purpose is always to show you who you are and then inspire you to be it. And the thousands of ADHD women that I've had the privilege of meeting, I've never met one, not one that wasn't truly brilliant at something. So, of course, I am just delighted to introduce you to Bevin Burns, who is no exception to this rule. Bevan Burns is a neurodivergent educator, nonprofit leader, and the mother of four who has spent her career helping children thrive by building environments that actually work for them. Go figure. She is the executive director of Bridges Middle School in Portland, Oregon, the only middle school in the state created specifically for students with learning differences such as ADHD, autism, dyslexia, and anxiety. With more than 25 years of leadership experience and over $15 million raised for Mission driven organizations, Bevan has dedicated her career to building systems where every child feels seen, supported, and able to thrive. Drawing from both professional expertise and lived experience, Bevan brings a thoughtful and refreshing perspective to conversations about parenting, education, neurodiversity, leadership, and what becomes possible when our differ are not just accepted, but actually valued. Welcome, Bevan. Did I get all of that right?

B

You did. That was a beautiful introduction. Thank you so much.

A

Well, you have a lot to be proud of in your background. So before we go there, what we always like to do is introduce our listeners to our guest by talking about their diagnosis story, because there's always something there to connect with. So can we do that first?

B

Absolutely. You know, I don't know that it's such a unique story, but. But it's. I think you're right. A lot of people might relate to it.

A

Certainly.

B

I'm finding more and more that women of my age, I'm 50, who are experiencing perimenopause menopause symptoms are sort of experiencing for the first time that there might be something else going on. When that estrogen. When those estrogen levels drop and our ability to so successfully mask many of which we didn't even know we were doing, all of that happens. And so that's a really similar story to min. Even though I've been working in the neurodivergent field and raising neurodivergent kids, it wasn't until after my cancer diagnosis that required five years of cancer treatment, primarily hormone suppression. So I was put into menopause like a brick wall at 45, and really quickly started losing my ability to mask. Some of the strategies and tools that I had always used for executive function weren't working anymore. All different kinds of things started happen, happening. So that really led me then to work with my doctor to figure out, you know, what's going on here. And sure enough, you know, she also kind of confirmed for me that this is becoming more and more common that we're seeing, you know, as this generation is aging particularly. It's been a really interesting process for me. Right. And tied up in all of the other things that come with a cancer diagnosis. Right. And examining our own mortality and examining how we move through the world and what things we value and where we want to put our time and energy. That's been another piece of the puzzle for me, but it's actually been freeing also. Right. Looking back at my history and always feeling like I didn't quite fit in the environments I was in. Even at an alternative school, everything kind of makes sense now. And this is all within the last year for me, and I'm sort of navigating through that. But I think it really has helped also bring even more passion to the work that I do already and a different kind of understanding.

A

So, Bevan, when you talk about always feeling different, what do you mean? What did that look like?

B

As I look back and I reflect a lot, I actually ended up. My mom put me into a alternative school when I was in fourth grade. And I was. School was always odd for me. It came very easily in a way. I kind of skipped from first into second and then from third into fourth, but it didn't feel right to me. I always felt like I wanted to do it a different way. I couldn't stand people just sitting there talking at me. I'm not an auditory learner, so I wanted to get my hands on. I wanted to do projects the school I went to, they actually chose that because I also came from a diverse family, a lesbian household, and back in the early 80s that wasn't very well understood or accepted and I had teachers who actually bullied me for it. So I got pulled into a school for that, thankfully, because I found a lot of other benefits there. And I think it, it helped me shape my understanding of the importance of belonging in education. Not just education, really all facets of our life, but in particular education. And so that has really shifted how I lead and what kind of an environment I envision in. Not trying to get kids to fit into our environment, but rather shifting our environment in micro ways for each of our kids so we're meeting their individual needs. But it boils down to that sense of belonging. And I think that was really hard for me to find. I did find it at an alternative setting, but more for the social, emotional, well being part. I still didn't access the kind of academics I really needed. So that came later in life.

A

So are you saying that grades weren't hard for you? School was easy socially, you always felt like there was a disconnect, but then beyond that, you, you. As easy as school was for you, it just wasn't satisfying, There was something missing.

B

Absolutely. It just. I very much felt like square peg in a round hole. And because of that I also found ways. Right. I think that's one of the things particularly, I know you know about this, but high functioning women, particularly. Right. Find workarounds. They find ways because going is what they know. Right. Doing is what we know, producing is what we know. And so I've always been in that bucket.

A

But.

B

But what? It didn't. And, and I found opportunities. You know, I ended up graduating really early, doing my junior year at a community college. You know, doing things deeper, dives into things I was interested in. But it was only because I had this alternative school that I was kind of able to carve my own path and even, even walking with my graduating class because I had left early, I came back a year later to walk with them because they were my friends. But I had sort of started a new life. So even that felt really disconnected and disjointed.

A

You were just never doing anything according to the rules the way everybody else was doing things.

B

That's right, yeah. Okay.

A

How were you different in terms of what was Bevin like as a grammar school kid? Were you ever in trouble? Did you have a sassy mouth? Did you challenge teachers? Or were you pretty much the good girl?

B

I was pretty Much the good girl till high school. And then I found a voice, or I tried a lot of voices on, right. I think it's that phase of our life where we're trying on clothes, personalities, whatever, to kind of figure out what feels right. And at that point I think I was a little more challenging, pushed the envelope a little more, probably made some bad decisions, right. As a teenager, thankfully I lived through all of them. But I would say I wasn't a behavior kid. Right. The teachers loved me and so that I wasn't a problem child for them. Right. And I think that so often happens, particularly for girls and why they go misdiagnosed for so long is that they're not creating a problem for anybody but themselves because they're internalizing. And I think that's very much how I navigated elementary and middle school and then high school. Things just shifted a little bit. I kind of, you know, right or wrong, felt like, oh, I'm grown up, I don't need to play this game anymore. I'm gonna figure out how to do it my own way.

A

So were you a challenge for your moms in high school?

B

For sure, but not until then, really. Yeah, I mean, I just wanted freedom. I craved freedom so much. For so long I craved freedom. So I was gone a lot. I moved out very early and just was ready to start my own life and do my own thing. So I think in a way it was probably hard for me, for them because I, you know, at such a young age I extracted from, from the family sort of, you know, unit. But in another way I, I wasn't the type of kid who was, you know, getting arrested, breaking laws, hurting people, hurting things. So I wasn't causing problems for them either.

A

What happened after high school?

B

I just, like everything else in my life, took weird paths to get places. I went to community college initially and while working full time as a nanny, got my early degree in early childhood education. But then at 19, I think I was still kind of doing my two year degree finishing, I got my first job in nonprofit. And ever since that became my home. I found that the, again, not really understanding all of it at the time, but knowing that I was a high functioning person and things would come easily to me. I've also been a very mission driven, cause related person my whole life. Like I grew up with a mom, working in health clinics on the weekends and bringing me and, you know, marches for equality, all this stuff. So right away, as soon as that happened, sort of the new trajectory started and I rose through that field. Went back to school to get my sociology degree with middle school science as my secondary. And then I went to the Institute for Nonprofit Management at Portland State, really realizing, well, I need to figure out how to bring these skills into nonprofit leadership, because that's where I want to do my work. And so it's all just kind of unfolded that way. I've always worked with populations that are underserved and don't have as much of a voice. So that's been sort of. My focus is bringing a voice to those who aren't necessarily represented in the rooms where they should be, starting with, you know, my first job in nonprofit was with seniors and trying to help companies be more senior friendly and bus drivers understand what it's like to have glaucoma and.

A

Right.

B

And so it's also about that perspective taking.

A

Yeah. So it sounds like you were a powerhouse. Whatever you were interested in, you did very well. You enjoyed what you were doing. So where did ADHD even come from? Like, what were the symptoms that you were experiencing that felt like, wait a minute, this isn't my normal brain that I've been used to that made you even consider adhd?

B

That's a really good question. And I think for me, it really came down to once my hormone and, you know, all everything changed through. Through the cancer fight, I quite literally lost my ability to mask and. And I had to start teasing apart. Okay, how much of this is like medical ptsd? Because there's a huge part of that, right. When you're in a bad medical battle like that for so long, how much of this is. Is other things. And then really trying to kind of overlay that on my life, but losing the. Manage it the way I always had is really what the indicator was for me. And then looking back, I realized the things that I didn't know to relate to that. Right. Like being sensitive to feedback, feeling like I might be letting somebody down if I'm not doing a perfect job. Like, perfectionism is huge for ADHD for girls, particularly for girls, especially if you've

A

achieved at such a high level for so long.

B

Right, Exactly. Exactly. So there was also. I think it's the quiet, internal emotional part that I didn't ever really understand to be part of ADHD until I was really engrossed in this world. And so that's when kind of the dots started coming together for me. And, you know, I look back at patterns of, like, starting projects and not finishing them. Right. All that's been a pattern my entire life for passion projects, because I poured that focus into work. And so while I'm able to do that really well at work, when it came to my personal life, not so much. And I think that's another thing that girls and women often struggle with in ADHD is boundaries. Because that drive to overperform, to prove yourself continuously, to have, you know, that sense of that need to do things right and thorough, that really is tied to that. And girls are internalizing that at such a young age. And when I look back, I so clearly can see how that's what I was doing. Absolutely was the overcompensating for the feeling of fragility and not being enough and not being understood and not being seen. So I think that very much translated into my work, but then into self examination at the same time. Right. Watching my second round of children, I have two adult children and then I have 10 year old twins.

A

Oh, wow. Yeah.

B

And you know, all four of them are neurodiverse in different ways. So I've learned a lot through that process too. But then the twins were, you know, five, you know, three, three to eight say when I was going through the all of this and one of them has significant adhd. And so it, that also caused me to do some self reflection and I think that is really calming. I mean, of course I'm read, reading about it and seeing it, but anecdotally just living it. What I'm experiencing more and more is that parents going through the diagnosis process with their child, that's when some of that self reflection really starts to happen and those dots and it's really coming in tandem quite often that the parent is also being diagnosed, you know, at the same time or shortly after.

A

Usually the mom.

B

Yep, you got it.

A

You know what's really interesting is that everything you are saying, I can completely relate to having experience it almost identically. Just being so confident, being such a hard driver. And then all of a sudden it was like someone took my brain. What I find really interesting in your situation though is you didn't immediately go to. Oh, this had to do with the cancer and the treatment and all of that.

B

Yeah, well, I think I did, but I did both.

A

Okay.

B

Yeah.

A

Because I think that's what probably most clinicians would say and expect. Right. It makes sense if you're going through rounds of chemotherapy and you know, the medication, whatever you had to do, that it would affect you cognitively. And so the expectation is, oh, it's all that.

B

That's so true. And when you're caught in that medical cycle too, like What I found was doctors were trying to give me more meds, right? Oh, oh, you need antidepressants, you need ADHD meds, you need all of these men. And I'm like, no, actually I think we need to cut all the meds and let's figure out what baseline is so that I can really figure out right what's going on. And so that was also part of that process. I can see how you can relate to that. I think a lot of high functioning women are really experiencing this. Another thing that before I realized it, I always called myself an extroverted introvert because if you, anybody who meets me would assume I am 100% extroverted, right? That's. But for people like me, what that means is it literally is a mask all day long. So when I get home, in my home, we call it bevin alone time. I need to be alone and de escalate for a little while before I can transition successfully into mothering and wifing. Because I have been on for so long that I have to be able to turn that off. And that for me it's, you know, I need at least an hour. And so thankfully in my family we've been able to figure out how to do that and recognize. But it is, it has helped me in taking ownership of that. Even though it looks easy, it's really hard work all day long and being able to accept that, that rest and restorative time is part of the high functioning. Right. And, and to, to feed my body and mind in that way. You know, I'm still adjusting to those feelings of guilt when you're not doing anything, you know.

A

So that's what I was curious about. We learn early on that when we're productive and producing at this high level, we get the accolades. Everybody's like, how does she do that? Oh my gosh, she's so good at that. And so that is what we crave. And so I know with me it was like, no, no, no. You know, the actual restorative time, the relaxation, the sitting around doing nothing. Oh no, that's for people who can't do, right. They can't do what we can do. And so it's a negative rather than understanding. No, that is part of what our brains need because that's what we've been trained to believe. We gotta go, go, go, go. And that is where our self worth is.

B

That's right. We've really tied, I think our value on such a, such a deep core level to that. And it was, you know, Going through like all the chemo and radiation parts of was the first time in my life, I would say that I had to. Right. But I also had a really good excuse. Right. Which means it would take something like cancer.

A

Right. To allow that for yourself.

B

It's true. But even then.

A

Right.

B

Still feeling guilty, feeling like I'm not doing enough, feeling like I'm a burden. Right. And it's just such a false narrative. And it's so many years of programming, though. Right. That we are now having to invest years deprogramming from it. And I think that's something that so many of us women are dealing with right now. Now, right?

A

Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, I look at it like with my kids, I have a son and a daughter, and both of them have. Have adopted this go, go, go mentality. Everything has to be done, you know, to the best, to the most, you know, the studying the longest. And I realized that, yes, society contributed, but I'm sure me as a role model because I know how much they respect me. I feel bad because I see that in them already as well.

B

Yeah, exactly.

A

What do you do about that? I mean, you've got four. I only have two. But I see what perfectionists they already are and how important it is for them to succeed in a traditional way.

B

Yeah. I wish I had an answer for what you do about that, because I see the same in my kids and I. It looks very different in all of them, but I do. I worry about those same patterns and how do we support work ethic. Right. Without developing workaholism. Right. There's.

A

Isn't the problem, Bevin, though, that I say this all the time. We just love what we're doing so much. So it's actually fun. So then where's the line?

B

You know, that's right. And I think that comes so much more for people who are doing passion work. Right. It's so true. Because the line doesn't end at 5:00pm, right. You're. It occupies the space of your brain, your heart and your body 24 hours a day. And so it is a different game. And I very much feel that way about my work. I call it a labor of love all the time. Right. Because I can't, like, imagine I, you know, if I won the lottery, I would end up volunteering on all these boards because. Absolutely. And people talk about retirement. I'm like, like, what. What would I do?

A

That would kill me.

B

Yeah, exactly. And I think it's a. It's a continuous process. Right. I mean, everything is right A process of continuous improvement. And I, I think about that a lot in terms of how I apply it to myself as well. And recognizing when those patterns come up, right. And allowing myself grace to be like, okay, I recognize that. And I can shift here or there. Micro, micro decisions, right. That add up over time is really how I look at that because it is. Every day is different how we sit and feel with that. But the awareness of that deep coding of that sense of value and need to produce and teasing that out from the reality of having the human condition where we actually need rest and we actually need restorative practice and our brain actually works better then I think just this year in February, I was really honored to be chosen to go on a leadership renewal retreat in Oaxaca, Mexico. And it was the first time in 30 years that I had traveled by myself. No children, no husband, no anybody else to take care of. And I traveled with a group of nine other nonprofit leaders who've been in the industry for 20 plus years of, you know, never had a sabbatical type. Like we're all running the marathon every year still. And it was such a profoundly transformative experience for me in putting sort of the, the, the test in action, right. And seeing the results afterwards. And it was so much easier than I thought it was going to be. I thought I was going to have a lot of like, like, you know, like, oh, what do I do with myself? I don't have kids, hair to brush or, you know, Right. And it was so not that for me. I found myself filled with energy. Waking up before the sun every day to go walk to the park so I could write poetry and just be in it and rediscovered that part of myself, right? That creative artist part. And feeding that. Giving my, my leader brain a minute to nap, right? Giving my mom brain a week was completely transformative for me in just myself, but also in my leadership, my parenting. And it was such a good reminder that the proof is in the pudding. Like, my brain literally worked better afterwards. I was so much more productive, so much less emotionally responsive.

A

Talk about it, because some of our listeners may not know what you're referring to.

B

Power in the pause is about just taking a moment. Sometimes it's a deep breath moment, sometimes it's a couple hour moment. But before responding to a situation, an email, a text, whatever it might be, that triggers some type of an emotional response. And turns out most things trigger some type of an emotional response, right? But in the culture work, we do it here at school, this has been a really powerful practice for us so it's something I brought into my train more and more to bring into my personal life too. But is that in that moment of being able to just pause, change your body posture, walk around the room, sit back down, take some deep breaths, maybe take longer if it's a big issue. But the different perspective you can bring to that in just those few moments of pause is so powerful. And the trip for me was like a week long pause on life and on everything to recharge, but to refine myself. Like, who am I if I'm not a mom and I'm not a leader and I'm not, not serving everyone else in the world and how do I do that without feeling guilty or selfish? But it was amazing. I mean the facilitators did an amazing job too of helping keep us grounded and you know, and in the know and really deep entrenchment in the experience and the culture there, but beautifully linking it to all of these different parts of our leadership and our service and, but, and so it was, like I said, a long version of power of the pause. But in everyday life, power of the pause is just taking a moment, breathe through and think about it with, with, you know, inquiry, like, okay, and you know, one of my coach, I have a professional leadership coach who often asks me this question, what if the exact opposite is true also, right. Of whatever idea I have in my head or thought about something and it's, it just flips it in a different perspective of, okay, let's think about that. If the opposite of what I believe is true, right? And it just brings you up to a different way of looking at things and being able to work collaboratively with people too. When you're not stuck in that feeling of needing to immediately respond, but just giving that pause.

A

Absolutely. It's also almost like you need something like a trip to Oaxaca or I mean it doesn't have to be that extreme, but just something that forces you to realize, oh, wait a minute, when I just let go, I am so much more productive, I am so much less reactive. I am so much happier because you and me telling people this, it doesn't work. It's like you, you have to be, at least for I think our personality types, almost forced into it to finally get it and see that oh, wait, really does work. It's not just talk, it's so true.

B

It's. And I think especially in this era of right, like over stimulation and over information, right. I mean, people don't even breathe anymore. Like we've forgotten how to like we're, we're breathing up here, we're not breathing down here. You know, it's. And it, it's so important. Even those micro minutes. I really like to tell people, my car, this is one of my favorite places to practice deep breathing because I'm captive, right. And if I'm not on the phone making the parent calls I didn't get to make during the day, this is my opportunity to really practice deep breathing on the way home. And it helps a lot with traffic response as well. But it's those little tiny micro pauses that can help us, even through the day, stay more regulated, stay more productive. Absolutely. So important.

A

Wonderful. Okay, so, Bevan, you work with students who have adhd, autism, dyslexia, anxiety. You work with these kids every day. What are some of the biggest misconceptions that adults have about these kids? That it's just not true?

B

Well, that they're bad and that they need to be fixed. These are the two I see most, not necessarily from my parents because. But they've been through the public school journey kind of before they come to me. But so I want to delve into that a little because I think that is a huge difference of how we look at neurodivergent brains as we are not looking at them as deficit based, and we are not looking at them as though they are a problem to be fixed. We are meeting them with inquiry. And. And how, right? What was the barrier to accessing this? How can we set it up differently so that they can reach that full potential? And that is really hard to do. Right. In a lot of settings. And I have so much love and admiration for public schools. Most, you know, my children have been through the public school setting. I was public school educated, all that, but they're being asked to do the impossible, right? At this point, 30 kids in a class and so many different neurodivergent brains and all trying to get them to do right. So they're not something to be fixed. It's how do we fix the system to serve them right? And that is a hard question to ask, particularly in systems that are budgeted, restricted, or, you know, just so much red tape of huge bureaucratic systems. And I think that's one of the things we're able to do so well as a smaller program. But I think another thing that is so important is that they're labeled behavior kids so often, I think more so for boys, right. We know this for many reasons, but the truth is behavior is just communication, right? And if these kids had a way and knew the words to communicate what they're actually feeling and experiencing. They would do that, but they can't. And they don't have those. That understanding that language. And so it comes out as behaviors. And so when you're in a traditional system, what happens with that is you create this negative feedback cycle where the kid is feeling like a bad kid, the adults are feeling like it's a problem to be solved and fixed, and then that internalizes shame and loss of confidence, and it becomes. And it creates more behavior because they don't have those communication tools. I think that's such a huge difference that here at Bridges, we look at behavior as communication. And, you know, I. But you have to have safeguards right around that because we also recognize, oh, 99% of the kids who come to us have experienced school trauma. And so we need to come at this from a trauma informed approach as well. But we also have to be curious and we have to ask deeper questions and look for deeper understanding of what is the root of the. The feelings and the emotionality that's underlying these behaviors. And that's just not possible in a lot of traditional settings now. But those are two things that I think are really, really important. Sorry, I just want to clarify that. I don't mean to say that neurodivergence excuses violent and aggressive behavior. Right. There's. That's not what I'm talking about. Right. But they're the behaviors that I would classify more as, you know, annoying or dysregulating or distracting for others that become the problem. Right. For the class. We have to be really careful here in our admissions process, even to try and extrapolate the differences. Because our kids traumatized, it's key that we maintain a safe space for them. They have to feel safe to be able to make mistakes, to be able to learn. Right. And so those. All of those pieces kind of work carefully together, but it's really. Behavior is communication.

A

Yeah. I mean, don't you find that a child who's a quote, unquote problem child, when they finally feel heard so they feel safe, that kid typically becomes the most brilliant kid in the classroom. And I think that is what is so confusing for a lot of people with adhd. They'll look at their, you know, whether they're young or whether they're older, they'll look at their trajectory throughout school, and they'll see a lot of bad grades and a lot of teachers that they did not connect with. They hated to be in that class. And then there'll be one or two classes where they are literally the star of the show. And that is so confusing because how could I. And so they think, oh, I'm stupid. Well, how could I be stupid there? But then get an A plus here. What I've always said with my son who has ADHD and dyslexia is my daughter has adhd, but she presented very differently. Very good girl, very high achieving versus my son could get attitude, especially when the teachers weren't good teachers. But you give him a good teacher and it was important that he respected that teacher. He would move hell and earth in order to perform at his highest capability. Do you find that as well?

B

Oh, absolutely. I would say the most important thing that a teacher can do is invest in building relationship immediately. Right? You cannot expect to get the best from a kid if they don't trust you and if they don't feel mutual trust and mutual respect. And so that happens through relationship building. That happens through teachers being vulnerable and authentic and even when they're willing, sharing right. Personal stories that help these children connect and identify. But it's also helping, like you said, helping them feel seen and heard and understood. I witness it all of the time here because that is exactly the core of what we do. Relationship based teaching is how we get to individualized instruction. Right. We can't get there until we really build that rapport with students. So that's the core of everything we do. And you can see it. I talk about this all the time. It is incredible to see the difference. Like, it's physical. Students with severe anxiety, adhd, right. Walking into an unknown place is so hard, right? And we do what we call shadow days here for our students. They come kind of do a whole day of school. We want to make sure it's a good fit. But they walk in like this, just terrified and trembling. And within a couple of hours, you can sense that they're starting to realize they've found their tribe. Their shoulders drop, their eyes brighten, smiles come out. And it is so profound. Even in just a few hours of a kid feeling like, oh, I'm not the enemy here, right? I'm, I'm okay. This is. Everyone else is kind of different too. And like, they're not being shamed, they're not being called out. It's, you know, it's. Teachers are literally getting down onto a knee and asking questions, not making assumptions. So I think that is everything. And I experienced that with my own children too. The teacher of the year is night or day difference of how Successful not only the actual outcomes, but how successful they feel about school.

A

Yeah, absolutely. I've also always believed that ADHD is not a deficit of intelligence, that it's a mismatch between the person and the environment. So running a school designed specifically for neurodivergent learners, what have you seen happen when that mismatch is removed?

B

Oh, it's amazing. Kids who have fallen 1, 2, 3, sometimes even more years behind in some academic subjects. Once you're able to rebuild that confidence and that love for learning.

A

Right.

B

And that sense of belonging and then providing different ways of accessing the content, we see like it's not uncommon to see like 2,300% growth in students in a school year. Once that happens, it is incredible. You also find that, right. With autistic children who might have deep focus and passion content. Right. It is not that hard to find ways to tie in the other unrelated content to those areas of special interest, which gives you this initial immediate intrinsic buy in and motivation. Right. But that's just not happening in most settings. But again, that relationship based piece means that teacher knows that Jimmy is really into trains. And if I did this algebraic equation based on train stuff, he's going to get into it. Right. So it's, it's little even tweaks that can make a kid feel seen and heard. But yeah, so much of it. Absolutely. It's transformative in what they can achieve. And it's not just academic. Right. I think that's important. The social emotional piece is so important too. I hear from parents. I mean, we had graduation last night. It was the first graduating class at our new campus and it was beautiful and just such a bittersweet moment watching our students fly off. But I can't tell you, every year, and this was my 14th school year year, every year the parents tell me how transformative this has been for their entire family. They went from being a kid who was bullied and felt out of place and had no confidence, had never been invited to a birthday party. Right. By fifth grade, to coming here and getting invited to 20 birthday parties and finding friends that they're going to be connected with for life. It is, and the parents will tell you too, like this is, this speaks to belonging so much too, because parents of neurodivergent children get this gut fear in their stomach when their kid's going to go to somebody else's house. Because now, okay, how do I explain to this parent, right. That there might be severe nightmares and anxiety that happens at night. There might be, might be like Sensory issues where my child can't have the peas and the potatoes and the meat touching. Right. These things are really hard. And as parents, we don't know how to communicate it without feeling this weird shame. But when you are in a community of acceptance and parents who have parented all different kinds of neurodivergent kids, all of a sudden it's like, hey, no, I got it. Don't worry, you don't have to say another word. My kid too. It's all good here. So that sense of belonging, when you can establish that in an academic setting, it reverberates so far beyond the walls of the school that it's core to success, I think, for humans in general, but particularly for neurodivergent children, because who don't feel like they've alone for so long in their life.

A

And what does that do? I mean, years of being misunderstood, what does that do to a child's confidence and how quickly can you rebuild it?

B

Yeah, I think that's unknown. But I will tell you one thing I know is children are incredibly resilient. Right. I mean, it is fascinating to me. Every year at this time with graduation, we see what can happen. We have this really cool event called Top God and our.

A

What's it called? Top Gun God.

B

D G O D God. Top God. It's a high school seminar class our 8th graders take all year. And it's rooted in Greek mythology. So that gives you the God reference.

A

Got it.

B

And the culminating event, and we have about 200 people that show up for this thing. Alumni, families come back. I mean, it's huge. But they get up on stage and they give a speech as if they were a campaign manager for their God that they've been assigned. So say it's Athena. Right. And they give a speech to the audience about the traits and personality traits, skills and gifts that Athena brings to the table. That if the audience was to vote for Athena to be the top God of bridges, the students of bridges would benefit from. Right. But. So, but it's really cool because what it does is it gives them a topic they're going to do in high school so they're going to feel like experts coming in their freshman year. It gives experience with public speaking, essay writing, speech writing, debate theatrics, all of this. But every single one of the parents who come in at fifth grade, when they hear about that, I don't think my kid's going to be able to do that, you know, and. And I. It's so fun to be able to Tell them every other parent felt the same way. Every one of them is able to do it. And for some, it might look a little different. Some do it as a play, some do it as a video. Right. But they all are able to do it. And it is so in their own way. Their own way. Exactly, exactly. But that confidence carries on with them for life. But that transformation, right. In general, we've got kids, kids for four years or less, and you see an amazing transformation. So I know that it's possible. Absolutely. And I know kids are resilient. I think it's very individual for each, how long that takes and what that secret sauce is. Right. Of the partnership between home, family, school, therapeutic providers, all of that plays into it. But it's possible for every single one of them. I know you've spoken, spoken to the sort of the untold genius of the neurodiverse brain. And I, I talk about that a lot because I truly believe. I mean, when you look back in history, almost every single great invention was from a neurodiverse brain. And I have no doubt that the kids we're teaching today are the ones that are going to solve water crisis in the future and cure cancer in the future. Because it takes a neurodiverse brain to think about something differently and not just do the same thing that's always been done. Right?

A

Absolutely. So, Bevin, you've raised more than 15 million for Mission Driven organizations. No small feat. How has your neurodivergent brain influenced the way you lead, build relationships, and inspire people?

B

I think it all roots to relationships. And I have been incredibly relational my entire life. And I think, think again. Kind of, you know, hindsight being 20 20, somehow, instinctually, as a child, I knew that I needed to earn that mutual trust and respect from the adults around me to be trusted, validated. And that gave me the. The pathways to create my own right journey. And so when I came into the nonprofit world 30 years ago, I didn't know what it was, but I knew that relationship building was what had to happen. And so that was what I brought. I initially started into the nonprofit world through development and fundraising. And it's not just the relationships, it's storytelling. And I really, really believe that storytelling is the key to any good fundraising or marketing campaign. Because to get like you, you tell beautiful stories right. In your podcast. It's. It's the storytelling that is where people find the connection. Right. And so I think that's a gift that, because of my neurodivergent brain, I brought to the table without even really realizing it. But I have. I have that gift of I can build a relationship with anybody in any room, from any wall walk of life. And perhaps my neurodivergent brain has helped me be able to meet these people with a different sense of perspective and compassion. Right. I mean, I truly believe that everyone you meet.

A

Right.

B

Is hitting, is. Is fighting in a hidden war you know nothing about. Right. That's. I love that saying, and it's so true. And I think about, like, later in life for me, like, even with the cancer journey, people would meet me on the street, would have no idea, right. That I have metastatic cancer and I've been in treatment for years. But it doesn't need. You don't have to look it. Right. And that's so often with neurodivergent brains. It's such an invisible. And I don't even call it a disability because like you said, I think these brains are the brains that will change the world. But it is a big factor of it in how we perceive things and communicate things. But for me, it's all about relationships and storytelling.

A

I want to ask you one more question about teaching. If you could give every teacher in the United States one piece of training about ADHD girls, what do you think that they really need to understand?

B

I think if there was a way to help teachers understand that what we typically see in boys with adhd, we know it's more outward, right. Physical, like we talked about. Right. Problem causing for the adults with the responsibility of making something happen, if we can think about how impactful that is outwardly for those boys and transfer that inwardly for girls, because I think it is equally as disruptive, as damaging, as deteriorating for confidence and all of those things. It's just so much more invisible because it's all directed inwards for girls. And so if I could help teachers understand that with the intended effect of having them bring more compassion and inquiry into how they build those relationships with their students. And in. And the other side of that is in with that inquiry, the question has to shift from how do I make them be successful in my classroom? To how do I make my classroom successful for all learners. Right. And that's a huge shift. And it's hard for adults because it means we have to take our ego out of it. Right. It means we have to accept that we maybe didn't do everything perfect. And that's hard for humans and that's hard for adults, as we've been talking about. But it is so important because we have to start there, we have to start from what can we change to help them access this content? And how can we do that in a way that they truly feel seen and heard and like they belong here? Because that's the only way they're actually going to be able to access it.

A

Wow. I love that. And I frankly feel like we as a family have a lot of personal experience around that. You know, my son, he went to three high schools in four years. And the second high school, it was a private school, well funded by some billionaire in the Midwest. They promised us they would teach to interest, but all of the educators came from. What they cared about is, you know, credentials. You know, the director of the school was a professor at Stanford. And, you know, the. The teachers were from Harvard. And so they did things exactly the same way as any school would have done them. They did not teach to interest, even though that's what they promised. And I think it was because if you have educators and leaders at a school that did just fine, obviously they did very well in the current educational system. How can you even understand when things don't work?

B

Right? Yes. That's so true.

A

So in your school at Bridges, are all the teachers neurodiverse?

B

Not 100% of them, or at least not open about it, but a huge percentage. Off the top of my head, at least 75% are openly neurodiverse in some way. And I think, quite honestly, it's probably even higher than that as I'm thinking about. And that brings up a different subject, which is workplace support for neurodivergent people.

A

Okay, huge issue.

B

But it is the same issue. Yes. Organizations and companies trying to get everyone to fit into their model in their box, a different model that works for other people. So it is so important, though, right? Particularly in this setting, we talk a lot about the importance of kids seeing themselves represented in the adult roles around them. And so that's a really special part about here. In fact, two of our staff members are graduates from our school. I love that part. Right.

A

Well, they graduated and they want to come back. Back.

B

Yep, exactly. And they understand our kids like nobody can. You know, they. They. We have one of our. One of our para educators, Riley. She's lovely. She. She used to call me her fifth mom. We had a lot in common in terms of the family setups we had. And she connects with these kids in such a way, but again, it's because she is willing to be authentic and vulnerable and share, you know. Oh, that was such a struggle for me when I was Your age, too. This is what it looked like. Here's what I actually ended up trying. That worked differently for me, but there's no shame in that. It's. I'm right here with you. We can do this together. And that is a very different feeling from I am the adult who is telling you what you should be doing and how you should be doing it. Right. It's night and day difference, and kids don't respond to that well.

A

And then you end up with an adult who can only follow other people's rules. Rules, Right.

B

Correct. You got it. Yeah.

A

So in that school that it was the third high school in four years, so Marcus left it. I cannot even begin to tell you how many students got kicked out of that school. And it was a very small school. And every single time one of the kids got kicked out, it was someone Marcus loved, and it just made him dislike the school even more. Now you go back and you look at where those kids that got kicked out are today. They are among the most successful. They are the most successful kids in the school. They're all mission driven. They're all loving what they're doing. They, you know, they went all went on to higher education. So at that point, I look at the school and it's like, what was wrong with that school that you could not see those gifts in those children?

B

Yep, exactly. Yeah. It's so. It's heartbreaking when you. When you see it happen. Right. And it happens way too much. But it is.

A

When you sell yourself as being a school for different learners. It sounds like bridges. That's what you do. And you walk the talk.

B

We do. It is. And it is hard work. Right. But it is the most important and meaningful work ever. And it is. There's nothing more rewarding than seeing these kids walk across that stage at the end the day of their four years here with confidence and excitement for their future. Right. That we didn't used to experience that. And what a gift is that.

A

And for teachers, if you have kids that actually love being there, isn't that a much better place to work than a bunch of children that are defiant because, you know, they can't learn the way. I mean with. I keep going back to that school, but I was just thinking one of the most important things that my son needed is an online port so he could go and figure out what is due. They had none of that. It's like, how do you have a school, especially today? And I mean, this was, you know, eight years ago now or seven years ago. How do you have a school where, like, we couldn't go online anywhere to see what was due. Marcus couldn't remember because he probably wrote it down half, you know, halfway. So it was just little things like that that to me were like 101 in education. Right?

B

Yeah.

A

So you talked about the workplace, and clearly you're creating a school culture where differences, they're not just accommodated, they're valued. What would workplaces, schools, and families look like if we truly embrace that philosophy?

B

I think they would look a lot more beautifully diverse because I think one of the things we know about human nature, right, is that like tends to group with like. And if you are a linear thinker, you're gonna end up wanting. Right. Following that linear path. And so often neurodivergent brains are not linear thinkers. And there's. There's so many other ways of getting to that same place. It is so important. It's a paradigm shift that has to happen as a society. And it's not in just language. Right. I think we're at the language shift point right now, and that's really important. Language matters incredibly. And I've worked in a lot of language campaigns through the years that I think were really meaningful. So, like, you know, right. We're really shifting to this neurodiverse, neurodivergent, and we will probably shift to something else soon, right? Because it's ever evolving. But more importantly than the language shift is, I think, a paradigm shift that has to happen, and it's exactly what you were speaking to. It is that neurodivergent looking and talking and understanding neurodivergent brains is not about a deficit. Right. It is about truly a different way that a brain works, and in many ways actually a lot more high functioning and capable. And you just have to do it in the right. Whatever that brain needs in terms of order of operations. So flipping that paradigm and that understanding and everything from language to classroom design to bedroom and home design to. To communication strategies around families and in classrooms and in workplaces. And it is so rooted in inquiry instead of assumption. And that is the sort of, I think, overarching paradigm shift that has to happen is that we as humans have to stop believing that we already know everything better than everybody else around us. Right. And find the. The beauty and the gift in not knowing and in being curious to know more and to be able to ask about things because we're curious, because that's how we learn. Right. And in. When we can create environments like that, whether it's home, school, or Work where people feel not just seen and heard, but safe to inquire when they don't know something and safe to try something and fail. Because all research already shows us that that's actually how we learn. Right. We don't learn by doing the same thing over and over that we've, we've dispelled that with a lot of science. So now that we know that our behavior has to shift, shift to match that. And I think that's the bigger work and the longer term arc of this sort of societal shift that I would say we're way over in the very beginning of. And I think language is an indicator of that. Once we start seeing that language shift happening and people doing podcasts and talking more. Right. Normalizing this conversation and being to. Able, able to do it in a way that demonstrates how to do it in a non deficit way that gives people the way to start thinking about it and talking about it. Right. Somebody who's listening to this podcast is probably going to have a conversation when they're at brunch next friend with their week, you know, next week with their friends. And so then it creates this spider web of awareness and shift. So I, I think we're at the beginning of that. That. But there's a long ways to go.

A

Well, we have to overcome the people who say things like, well, the reason we do it this way is because we've been doing it like this for 150 years, so why break it?

B

Yep. Yep.

A

Oh my God. That's the reason to shift it, to change it. Right. That is not the reason not to.

B

So people don't feel safe in their workplaces to say that. Right. That's the problem. Like they're for so many. Yeah, it's. But you're exactly right. That's it.

A

Of all the kids you've worked with over the years, what do the ones who flourish have in common?

B

Zest and grit. I would say those are two. We talk about those a lot here. And zest comes for me that really it's curiosity and curiosity to explore the world around them, which requires. Right. That safety. But then it's also grit. When you see kids who are willing to do hard things. Right. And this is a challenge for our youth. Right now we're at a crisis of work ethic, I would say. Right. For a lot of reasons. But when you see kids who have an intrinsic motivation to be curious, that transitions into grit, which I would consider more than willing to do the work to get to the solution they want, even if they don't know how to get there. They're willing to try, right? They can see, they might not be able to see the path to get there, but they can see where they want to get, get. And so having the curiosity and the sense of security and confidence to try without fear of failure is so huge, so huge that those are the kids that I really see going on to the next place, post bridges and thriving and then beyond that. And, and it's huge. I mean, we see this every year with about 75% of our kids or more go back into public high school. And we really intentionally have not expanded into high school because we want to teach our kids to be successful everywhere, not just here. So when I think about the things that serve them well as they transfer on to high school, college, whatever comes next for them, those are the things. It's the curiosity, the willingness to try things without fear of failure. It's the confidence, right? And that often took a while to be repaired and restored. And it's looking around the room and believing that the people around them, believe in them. Those are such huge keys of what I see as truly helping our kids flourish. And the ones that were really able to develop those things do well in every setting that they go into.

A

You know, I think we've come full circle because when we first started we were talking about our kids and this fear that are we setting an example where they're not going to know how to relax, they're not going to know how to do self care. I mean, even the word self care, I'm kind of like. But I understand the importance of it. However, the other part of me, which is why I don't want to discourage them from going for what they want, is grit. It's exactly what you're saying. And so if I see grit and passion around purpose, then I'm like, okay, they're going to be okay.

B

Totally, totally. That's so true. My, my middle child, my 23 year old, she lives in Oakland. And she said to me recently, she said she's in school and doing great and everything. And I was like, what are you thinking? Like, what do you, what do you want to be when you grow up? You know? And she was like, oh, that's too narrow. She's like, I'm an entrepreneur. I want to have multiple businesses. So, you know, that's why she's doing a business, because she's like, I need to know how to run the business. I've got the idea. And I love that she has that confidence and Right. The double edged sword of that is don't work yourself to death.

A

Right.

B

And so it is that balance. But I think that we have the opportunity to model it right now that we know more and that we are embracing the importance of that. We need to do that visibly and we need to model that for them. I am really open with making kids about Bevin alone time. Right. Which is rest and recover, but being able to name that, that. Hey, me too.

A

Right?

B

I need my, I need my charge, my recharge time. It looks different for everybody, but it is just as valuable as producing. Just as valuable.

A

Yeah. And it just makes you produce more better stuff. Right. So, so why wouldn't you? Okay, Bevin, I've kept you forever. Last question. What is your number one ADHD workaround? Do you have one? Ooh,

B

I could not survive without my calendar.

A

Is it a paper calendar?

B

I know I use my phone, my computer, electronic, but I have multiple, multiple calendars and that was really hard for me. So I use one system that manages all of them and that's been super helpful for me. But even with that, oh my gosh, I still rig. Oh man. I'm supposed to be in a minute, meeting in five minutes. Because I'm. When I'm into something, I'm into something. Right, Right.

A

What's the system that manages your multiple calendars? I can't imagine if I had to manage more than one calendar.

B

Yeah, yeah, it's, you know, it's motion. I've just started using it a few months ago and it has been life changing for me. And it has AI Intuition integration, so I can, and it's project management software too. So I can, it takes all of my calendars and syncs them and then I put into it projects and it calendarizes my tasks for me. And it. If I can't do, say I have two hours set aside to work on accounting this day. If I can't do it and have to cancel it, it reschedules it for me within the deadline so I don't miss my deadline. So those things. And it gives me warnings like, hey, okay, this is the third time you've canceled this task, but it's due on Monday. Right. And so it's, it's been incredible for me. So that's one of the reasons I, I started doing a lot of research to figure out what tool am I going to use. And it was recommended to me by one of my coaches and I'm so glad that I've started using it. This summer I plan to put more time into it to really figure out even what I can get more out of it. But I think there are so many different tools too. And that's, that's one of the challenging parts of neurodiverse brains is everyone is so unique. Right. And so again, having the, the confidence to try things and then knowing if it doesn't work, you can try something else. But I think the most important thing is that, and I say this to my students all the time, particularly girls, highly successful women, all use tools and strategies, period. Right. You are not broken because you need tools and systems and strategies. Nuh. Michelle Obama uses tools and strategies. Right. And it's. It is the area era that we live in where we are asking our brains to do too much all the time there. We should not feel any sense of shame, of needing supportive tools and strategies to navigate that.

A

I always say our brains are not built for remembering. They are built for thinking.

B

Absolutely. I love that. Oh, I love that. Yes.

A

So, Bevan, where can people find you if they want to know more about you and what you do?

B

Well, our school website is bridgesms.org and of course, I am the schooler on Instagram. I am Mrs. Burns and it's B, Y, R, N E S. And Bridges is also on instagram @bridges miss and we post really fun behind the scenes stuff all the time. I do encourage you to check it out.

A

Bevin, thank you so much for spending time with us here today. This was a fun conversation.

B

I thoroughly enjoyed it. Tracy, thank you so much for having me. I'm just, I'm a fan and I'm really honored to be here with you today. Thank you.

A

Ditto. So that's what I have for you for this week. If you like this episode with Bevan, please let us know by leaving a review. Our goal is to change the conversation around adhd, helping as many women as we possibly can learn how their ADHD brains work so that they too may discover their amazing strengths. Thank you so much for listening and I'll see you here next week. You've been listening to the ADHD for Smartass Women podcast. I'm your host, Tracy Otsuka. Join us at adhd for smart women.com where you can find more information on my new book, ADHD for Smartass Women. And my patented you'd ADHD brain is a okay system to help you get unstuck and fall in love with your brilliant brain.