A

And that's when you see that footage. And he just unloaded. He says, I know UFOs are real. I was inside one. I know they were made with materials that we can't duplicate. We can't replicate. First time you ever hear him like the noise? My name is Jeremy Corbell. I seek to weaponize your curiosity.

B

And I see a white light pop up and stop about 100ft in the air.

C

Unweaponized. You've broken some amazing stories. Matthew Brown. Dylan Borland. Jim Lakatsky.

A

You told us, because you were allowed to tell us that our government has a UFO in its possession and has been able to access the inside of it. Right? Yes. It's a Rubik's Cube. It's a constellation. It is a variety of investigations with different hardware, software, and minds on them to exploit in different ways. Working on a craft is different than working with a craft.

C

Do you think we get another Bob Lazar coming out near term?

A

We almost got it. And he's dead. Matthew Sullivan was fact going to testify two weeks about before he died, I think. And that's why people and the FBI are investigating if his death was suspicious. Somebody you know worked on the reverse engineering. Yeah, of course. Of a laser weapon system from a downed Russian asset. Nhis last name start with T. We're not playing that game in front of the camera. I'm gonna crack a beer for this part. I wanted to have a drink with Jesse. He's got water. Cause he's an alien. So this is back and forth, rapid fire. Okay. Are you independent or are you controlled? Bro, let's not get into it. Right? You said you don't want to. Okay, so let's not.

C

We can if you want.

A

Bro. This is gonna be so awkward for your audience. Ignition sequence. How is this possible?

C

Nothing too unusual about that.

D

Their existence cannot longer be. Denia. Before we dive into this wild episode, I want to give a huge thank you to one of today's sponsors. Dose Dose for your liver is an extremely high quality drinkable supplement. It tastes absolutely delicious. It makes you healthier, and all you have to do is take it once a day. I love nerding out and finding the best new health and wellness hacks. And it's super easy to overlook the biggest internal organ in your body, the liver. It's your body's most metabolically active organ. It runs over 500 functions every single day. It processes everything you consume. It detoxes you daily. And it supports your energy levels and your digestion. A lot of people with bad guts actually don't realize it's linked to their liver health. What I appreciate about Dose is that they actually have serious research behind it. Two double blind placebo controlled studies showing positive impact on liver enzyme levels and in liver function. Having data like that is very rare in the supplement space and it's the reason I was comfortable working with them. No pills, no powders, and no icky taste. Just a two ounce shot that tastes like tangy orange juice. It's simple, effective, and super easy to build into your routine. New Customers can save 35% on your first month of subscription by going to dosedaily.co Jesse or entering Jesse at checkout. Again, that's D O S E D a I l y.co Jesse for 35% off your first month subscription. I love this product. I want to thank do so much

C

for sponsoring the show.

D

Now back to today's episode.

C

Jeremy Corbell.

A

Jesse Michaels, this is an honor and

C

it's been a long time coming and I'm just so grateful for you coming on the show. This is really cool. Yeah. You need no intro, but I'm going to give you one.

A

Okay.

C

You broke the og original whistleblower of the UFO reverse engineering program. The guy that did it in. You know, there are guys before him like Bill Uous, but in the most credible, thorough way, and that's Bob Lazar. You made an amazing documentary about him and covered it as thoroughly as anybody. Obviously working closely with George Knapp. Who broke the story.

A

I was gonna say I did not break that story. That story got broke because Bob was about to get broken by opposition. And George Knapp not only broke that story with Bob, but he carried it along the way, making sure his reporting was accurate to this motherfucking day.

C

That's right.

A

Can I say those words?

C

You can say those. You could say whatever you want.

A

We broke the fuck barrier.

C

We did. And you and George are close collaborators, longtime colleagues. He's called him your mentor. And you guys both host the podcast Weaponized. Everybody should check that out on Weaponized. You've broken some amazing stories, Matthew Brown. I want to get into. I want to get into Dylan Borland. I want to get into another person who breached the hull and walked into a ufo. Not in some sort of liminal state, in a dream, but in a. Presumably a hangar, an aerospace hangar in Jim McCaskey. So you've broken some of the most incredible, interesting stories when it comes to UFOs. And I'm very excited to speak to you today.

A

Thank you so much. Jesse, I'm excited to speak to you. There are things that people don't know, background things that I think will be really interesting to people. You didn't mention David Grush. I wanna talk to you about how that all went down. He came over to George Napoleon, to him at a bar with the unclassified ICIG complaint. And we took so much time vetting him to make sure, and I fought to make sure he could talk in Congress. And he'll tell you the exact same thing I fought. They didn't want him to testify, and he's one of many they didn't want to testify. Additionally, what people might not know is George Knapp and I did break the Commander Fravor store Tic Tac story. We did it quietly on the radio

C

twice before the 2017 New York Times article.

A

Yes, sir. Reverse time machine.

C

Wow.

A

People got to be audio Didex or whatever. They got to, like, go in there and listen. I can pull them up.

C

Well, let's get. Because you just said something very interesting. Leaning over at a bar.

A

Yes.

C

With David Grush. So what happened there?

A

Okay, so there's so many things. Where's your audience? There are so many things Jesse and I want to talk about because this is like actually him and me just talking, and this is long overdue. So when you ask me a question, I'm going to answer it directly and then we can go from there. What happened there? What happened is we were in Rocket City, Alabama, and we were there for SCU because there were some people that are not public that we wanted an opportunity to meet with where it was like we could go somewhere and have a actual private in person meeting. So we went to the SCU thing so that we could do a journalism thing. I happened to be filming because that's why we were there. I was filming and I'm pointing the camera at George. I thought it was just so cute. He's like, you know, gets to this thing. He's overwhelmed with all this stuff. And, like, he. And I like to just have a beer. I'm gonna crack this at a certain point. So bartender gives him a beer, and as I'm filming, this guy's blocking my shot. He, like, comes in and he whispers to George Knapp. And I'm protected like a pit bull, right? So immediately I capture. I watch him. And turns out that was David Grush. And he's essentially. We knew about David, but we have to vet every single source, no matter how good they sound. That's our job. You gotta vet them. Right. And that I'm on cosmic time. Journalists that rush stories out, they wanna be first. I'm gonna be first. I wanna be right, I wanna get it right. So he leaned over and I got it all. Lip readers know what he said he was kind of trying to do like he didn't know it was filming. Now he does. Now he does.

C

Well, I'll, I'll, I'll give you an out. What did the lip readers say that he said?

A

You know, essentially all he said was my name is David Grush, I'm an intel officer. You know a little bit of his history.

C

Sure.

A

I am going to come, I'm going to file, or I just did file, actually my official icig. Inspector Intelligence Community Inspector General, which we should break down for your audience. A lot of people don't know what that means. Inspector General is like the police. Let's look at it that way. How I understand it from a Simpson version, right, Police. The IC is Intelligence community. Wraps up all the intelligence communities. At the top of that is ODNI, Office of the Director of National Intelligence. But CIA is under them as well as maybe 16 intelligence agencies that are acknowledged within the United States. So that's what the Inspector General of the intelligence community is, is the watchdog of the intelligence community. And that's very relevant up until this minute. We're talking. Some stuff was in the news a few days ago and I want to break that down for people. So David Grush provides in absolute legal capacity enough information for me and George to begin. So we have our little side talks and we're like. Well I'm like George, you know what I gotta do? He goes, yeah, you gotta take him to a bar. I go, but he doesn't drink. Cause I asked him, right, all right, we'll get him. Anyway, so I met up with him later that night and he watched me drink a beers which is glorious. And I always like sip em just to stay on the level. I think Gary Nolan was there with us and he did actually take a shot with me. If he says he didn't, he's lying. I think he'll admit to it. Gary Nolan came out to the thing and I got to know David a little bit. You know how you and I get to know each other a little bit over time? The first time, right, that's what happened that day. But then what happened after is what people don't know, which is how do you communicate about something sensitive? Just like signal smoke signals, how do you do it? So we got to a point where we knew David Grush was not only legit, but everything he said is accurate. Not just to the best of his knowledge, that it is accurate. And there's a difference there. So that began the conversation. What is the end goal here? You're worried, right? Yeah, of course he's worried. He's a lone standing wolf telling the world something they'd never heard before, always have suspected, and our government has covered it up for all these decades. I'm getting goosebumps because if I was in his position, think about the pool of people that know and then the pool of people that really know anything. It was his job to investigate black budget programs surrounding UAP. He did 40, like, depositions, whatever you call them, and more. This guy has put everything on the line. Everything. He broke the fold. It's not for personal gain. First question I asked him at the bar, you know, I said, you gotta tell me what I'm gonna find out. What's your dirt? What's the lowest point in your life? Because if you're telling the truth, that's what they're gonna come after. PTSD, bro.

B

I was in combat in Afghanistan, 2013. You know, I got diagnosed with, you know, post traumatic stress disorder. You know, sought treatment. I got help, good to go. But there was an agency that tried to dig that back up and say, oh, Dave still has ongoing issues, unmitigated, we need to pull his clearance. And then I had to show my medical records and be like, no, dude, I sought treatment. Still do, because that's what you do.

A

And they tried to use that against.

B

It was crazy.

A

Almost every service person and non service people I know can have that. So they, of course, attacked that in a malicious way leaked by intelligence community to a fake journalist. Because fake journalists don't pay people, by the way. So that's the story of the beer. It was the beginning of the potential of having somebody raise their hand in front of the world, America, the Congress, the entire world, and say, not only are UFOs real, but we are reverse engineering the craft. We've been exploiting their derivative technologies for decades. We've made very little progress, but a little bit. And there were biologics, just means pilots, beings, non human. And that was the assessment of. That's what he followed up with. That's what David Gresh did. He popped the balloon. And now we're all just trying to, like, catch up.

C

And you're talking about a guy who handled the presidential daily brief, was well regarded by a lot of his colleagues. I also, in the name of vetting he was one of the guys who I got to talk to.

A

You got him on camera first and brought him out.

C

So, you know, actually cold hard did okay. But I, but I also had known him for a couple years before.

A

Yes, sir.

C

And, and I met some of his colleagues and they all just spoke about him in super high regard. Even colleagues who weren't working with him in an official capacity investigating UFO programs, they just worked with him in other capacities that are prosaically well regarded, you know, like handling the presidential daily brief. Here's a bullet being in, you know, National Geospatial Agency.

A

I want you to give his biography and all that, but next level, find somebody that doesn't like them. Find out if they tell you I don't like them, but yeah, and then they tell you what he did and you're like, aha.

C

I, I have met people who don't like him and it feels like they have ulterior motives.

A

Right, right. But you still early in the early stages, you, you know, coworker situation, all this, you got people like people don't like them, that kind of thing. You, when you're investigating something, you always try to find the people that want to hurt somebody or don't like them and see if they can't deny certain truths that you're looking to validate. That's one tactic in journalism.

C

The funny thing is when I try to kind of corroborate his claims with, you know, people I meet in the government, I say, hey, like, what about what he's saying isn't true? And they're like, well, a lot of it checks, to be honest. And like, you know, you're pretty above board as far as his background goes. But like, I don't know, it's just this. And they use these like hand wavy ways to sort of explain it away. And I'm like, okay, well, why don't you go a little deeper? Why don't you look into, you know, if you have the proper clearances, you know, he gave presumably hundreds of pages to Thomas Manheim, the IC Inspector General.

A

Not allegedly, whatever word you said.

C

I don't know about the amount of pages. No, no, no.

A

I'm like, no, it doesn't matter. Yeah, you're right.

C

Yeah. And 40 firsthand people that worked directly on the craft. Not only that, but I have reason to believe that there are factions involved in UFO disclosure and there's a specific faction that sort of come out, you know, and, you know, is gung ho about a certain disclosure to a certain extent. And I think they weren't really anticipating David Grush.

A

Oh, no, they weren't. That was. That was a plan. Thing is how to move somebody from. He's lived in his whole life, you know, kind of in. You're not going out there trying to be on social media. He lived his whole life, I say, in the shadows, right? This happens with a lot of these intel guys. They're not used to the public attention, and then good or bad, it hurts them or it makes them feel better. I tell them, praise and blame is all the same, man. You got to be right with yourself and your family and your dogs and make sure this guy got dogs and. And make sure that you're solid. Because that public attention, when you bring your head out of the parapet above it can really harm people. It has harmed people.

C

Absolutely. Well, I think it's really important, though, to make clear upon questioning him and others, I feel like it's very clear that his sources aren't only the ones of the people who want disclosure to a certain line. His sources go deeper than that. And so there's this constant question of circular reporting. Are you just talking to the people who did NIDs and Bigelow and all this sort of, you know, external ostaps?

A

They don't believe, though. Even Dr. Cassidy doesn't believe we should handle disclosure. Don't kick a sleeping dog. That's what I've been told every time I got to the top of the food chain, the highest George and I could ever get to. Every single time. It's like they practice that saying. So even people that you're naming don't think disclosure is a good thing, right? So. So imagine the people that are. Have their whole lives have been to guard it. You can't get that out of them. That's been their job. Protective programs. It's protective programming.

C

Why do you think that? You know, when you get to the inner layers of this program, it always comes out that, like, oh, if you knew what I knew, you wouldn't want this stuff out.

A

First of all, you say program. I think it's really important to break that down. People say the legacy program, dude, that's a holding name. Like, Bill is a holding name for a team of FBI, Frank. It's a group of people, right? So the legacy program, when people say that, yeah, program. There are programs and they are isolated from one another. Uh, so not every single person was a technician directly on a craft that David Grush brought to the icig. They had direct exposure to the program with an S Right. So that, that's really important to know. We, we call it the program the legacy program, bro. Many names. Palm is Apple in French. I was just told by gsp Apple is Apple, you know, so different names, same thing. But it's a Rubik's Cube, it's a constellation. It is a variety of investigations with different hardware, software and minds on them to exploit in different ways. Working on a craft is different than working with a craft. Right.

C

That's what's so weird. I'm curious to hear if this is your experience because you've done this for decades longer than me. But for my experiences I always think okay, in a few months I'm going to get to the bottom of this. I'm going to figure this, you know and then, and then a few months go, go, go by and you learn about this whole new weird aspect to this.

A

Any though?

C

Yeah. How so?

A

Because there are protection programs.

C

Yeah.

A

Dilute. Sure to misdirect.

C

Yes.

A

And I've. And they're seductive, they're shiny. You want to believe it. You have to be careful of the next aspects. But it is an onion. There's layers to it. I didn't mean to say there aren't. It's just be careful with it for sure.

C

Well, no, I think you have to think with extreme epistemic humility and not.

A

What does epistemic mean?

C

Not a way of knowing. So you can't jump to any sort of conclusion. You can't snap anything to grid. You have to sort of say, okay, I'm going to wait for corroboration for that in the future. But this could be counterintel to like everything you have to put so far.

A

If you listen to Dr. La Caskey said on my program with George, you know, he gave a warning about two things. One is the protective programs and the disinformation that he knows. He never identified who. Somebody lied while their hand was up in Congress. Knowingly, I think he was saying. And then he said that people believe things because they're shown in official capacity. But I'm not talking about stupid nonsense where, where people are saying Yankee blue. That was a, that was a psyop. They're trying to pretend that existed in the capacity they say. So he warned us against that, Dr. McCaskey. He also warned us very strongly if you watch that we're going to lose the ability to really engage this topic without the brightest minds because we're not teaching inside scientifically the younger generations. And he is scared about that. That because of the secrecy which he doesn't want full secrecy on this, but because of it, we going to fall behind with the American mechanics of how to interrogate the UAP problem when that.

C

And that's what's really interesting about his new book, New Insights. At the end of it, he goes into a bunch of modalities and frameworks that he clearly wants spread among young STEM students all over the country. Gets into high frequency gravitational waves and rotate solid state rotating superconductors for gravitational manipulation and like really crazy shit.

A

They should hire you because let me just tell you, most people don't read his book and take from that what he means. And you, you have to translate complex things into. You don't dumb anything down, you simplify it until the next question is asked. And he needs to practice that because his voice, man, he's done more for. He has actually done more from a knowledge standpoint of transparency on this than I think most people throughout history. If you go and you read his books like you did. But we need bright minds to look at it. We need everybody asking the next question. Like, when I started this, man, people thought it was like UFOs, this, that, right? So now we're at a consensus reality where it's like, okay, there's a there, there, but what's the question not being asked. And we're so close. We're so close.

C

Did you find it frustrating when he was on your podcast and you asked him about him stepping inside of a UFO and he said yes, but then he also was like, very clear that he couldn't say much more than what he had said in the book is.

A

You're officially allowed to tell us that, that the United States government has in its possession a craft of unknown origin and you are able to access the inside. Is that correct? The wording that you read is correct.

B

You're going beyond the wording.

A

No, I'm not. I'm not. I'm asking you, did that meeting happen and is it true? And it's true. Yes. Okay, you're, you're telling us, you told us because you were allowed to tell us that our government has a UFO in its possession and has been able to access the inside of it, right? Yes.

D

Why do you think he was able

C

to get that cleared?

A

The fact that he stepped inside of a ufo, like, why could he get that cleared?

C

And I think it's a reasonable.

A

No, it's extremely reasonable. But it creates a conspiratorial mindset, right? Like, oh, we've distrust government on this. Why are they allowing it now it's like people ask questions like how is Jeremy and George not in trouble for. And how do they obtain such a variety of different products from argument that I'll. I'll call sensitive most likely. Right. First of all about me and George is called fucking journalism. And, and if, and if you, if you are not seeing that you are looking at the wrong thing. So with Lekatsky, why you asked a bunch of questions there. So why did they let him? Well, you know, not everybody at adopts your desk, you know, is equal, you know. And you can submit a book in one way and say it's fictitious or you can submit it and say it's this is fact. And he did the fact way. Right. It's harder. Took a long time. George knows how long it took with each book. Why did they let him? I know for a fact there are people in the mechanisms of government that let things get through because they're on our side. Truth. I suspect that's why it's not some big plan. Dude, if this was planned, I would kick back, relax and stop and not worry because then we've got a planned situation. This is Vietnam. Everything has been provoked. It's been fought for millimeter by millimeter for years and decades. So what you get from him is the absolute factual information. It's not theoretical, it's factual. And so. And he says when he doesn't know stuff.

C

Yeah, he's a senior DIA rocket scientist with a long history. And I, I think it's important for people to realize there's probably a war going on inside the government and there are probably elements of the quote unquote legacy program that want itself outed or partially outed. Like there are members of, you know, inside these programs that think the way they're being run is ridiculous.

A

That's why you had the vice president of Lockheed Martin trying to get the craft and hardware that they have obtained a long time ago out the back door into the sunlight through the front door and studied that way they saw the writing on the wall and it was being facilitated by Dr. Colm Kelleher, Dr. James Lekatsky, a bunch of people they worked with. That's the truth, what you just said. There are a lot of people that realize there's no right, there's no purpose to hold back from human beings the ultimate truth, whatever that might be. I got some guesses. You know, Maybe there are UFOs and they're not from here, whatever that means. I mean, why would you build a Ferrari not go fast? Why Would you make something that appears that it could travel amongst the stars? If it doesn't, and that gives you a sense of at least one aspect of origin? Yes, of course, there might be more. So. Yeah, dude, I. Look, man, this is my favorite topic and you and I got so many things we can talk about that I agree with what your analysis is.

C

Well, I want to touch on something that you just mentioned, which is the VP at Lockheed Martin. His name was Jim Ryder.

A

That's right.

C

And he gave a very interesting speech called the Garment of the Gods. And it's very strange. It's about the veil thinning and he talks about extrasensory perception and consciousness. But he's a VP at Lockheed Martin Space Systems who's very well respected.

B

The idea that everything from spoons to stones or conscious is gaining academic credibility. Who wrote that? One of the most senior physicists in Canada.

D

Canada.

B

It's the only conclusion we have. Everything is conscious. We're just discussing amount and levels.

C

I find him and Lekatsky's language around this topic very interesting. McCaskey talks about Plato's Cave and consciousness.

A

And it affects you.

C

Yeah.

A

To know something this big and hidden. It's like if you've ever taken a psychedelic, right. You've seen this world around you at all times, but you are not initiated to what that world is or means. So you might see like a tie dye or dancing bears of the Grateful Dead, but as soon as you breach the hull of that craft, you see a world that has always been hidden to you but has always been there. And that can. It has disturbed people to their core. And then they start getting angry that other people don't get to know. And what. This goes back to your question, what was it? Frustrating? Why did he not go outside the parameters of his book? Why was he allowed to say that? Told you why. He's allowed to say it? Most likely. Yeah. You can see on my face, I hold my emotions, like right here. You could see I'm frustrated. I'm not trying to hurt the guy. I mean, you know, I'm sure they all got mad at me at different times. I'm just pressing because I know people want to know. And he can't say the words that aren't printed because he's the kind of guy you want protecting secrets for America. He's the exact kind of guy.

C

You know, it's. It's so. It's so interesting and it's so messy because. Yes, it's like, ideally, if this thing is like a portal or a Gateway. The object is to a new sense of the actual true nature of reality. Yeah, this should be for humanity. It should be for everybody.

A

Is humans, human beings, knowledge and information. We own that. Right? It is so having that held back, you know, you know, the reason, you know, okay, America first Weaponization, Strategic surprise, strategic advantage, technological advantage. Like, I get that now. That's some like, Stone Age thinking when we're in the Jetsons, you know, that we're past that now. So. But that is. I understand what. So they need to formally acknowledge the known facts, formally acknowledge the unknown facts. They really need to define the terms and boundaries and parameters and topography of what we're looking at. Because if they don't do that, if they don't, if they give us like this partial disclosure of stuff, then we get kind of lost with what it means to be human. We get lost with understanding our position in what it means to exist. And there might be questions that are unasked there, that are profound, that have profound answers that we just haven't. Like eating the mic.

C

No, you're good.

A

We just haven't been able to ask. And how do we evolve if we don't have the right questions? So we need. You don't need to tell somebody how to make a nuclear bomb, but you need to tell them nuclear physics exists and you can study it and try to protect that part. So we gotta get to the point where we're all at a consensus reality that matches up a little bit better with actual reality. And if we do that, then we're going to have questions. And those questions, the answers might be a little disturbing if you're a person that gets disturbed, but it will be the truth. And the truth, that's what's going to help us evolve. And so that's why I'm so upset with the secret keeper.

C

Well, it makes sense that they wouldn't disclose it because on the one hand, you're kind of ceding your authority to this higher thing that's flying with impunity at your most around your most sensitive sites, around your nuclear installations, tampering with the nukes themselves. So you don't want to admit that if you're in some position of governmental authority and then you don't know, as far as you know, what could confer a tactical advantage to the adversary. Maybe you haven't figured it out, but it's this weird cat and mouse game theory thing vis a vis China and Russia. And so it's this weird thing where they have this asymmetric knowledge on the nature of reality, which they should not have any right to vis a vis normal people or scientists. But their incentives make it so that, you know, they're just not gonna go full open kimono anytime soon.

A

Well, don't go so fast or quick. I mean, you know, what are we

C

fighting for unless we can wrest it out of them?

A

We can provoke. You can't just. How? You can't give anybody anything because all you can do you put in their hand. But it's an object. You can't give anybody anything. You can lead by example. You can't take anything. It's not just one person's thing. You need to provoke and they need to give. And when they give, you need to receive. And that's so I'm not trying to be oblique here. It is an ontological issue. This thing, an ontological idea, I believe means relating to the existence of being. An existence itself. Relating to the existence of being. Right. Is that what it means?

C

Yeah.

A

So this is the UFO thing is a symbol. There are things a lot deeper than UFOs, I suspect.

C

I agree. I think it's the tip of the iceberg.

A

Yeah, but it's a symbol, it's a symbol of freedom of thought. Because if you, if we can talk about it with the right words and factual information, then we have freedom of speech. Freedom of speech causes debate. Debate causes thought. Then we have freedom of thought. It's fucking beautiful, man. What are we fighting for?

C

It is beautiful. And I hope we're on the verge of a paradigm shift because, I mean, how do you feel now that the Department of War has a website with more hits than, you know, people in America? And you know, we have stuff coming out and you can say that the stuff often is repackaged, repurposed, things that have already kind of existed in the open source world. I find it hilarious that that is what's making, you know, the Citadel scientific gatekeepers like Neil DeGrasse Tyson take it seriously is the fact that it gets a stamp of approval from authority. So it kind of shows that they were never doing science in the first place. But how do you feel? Do you feel, do you feel vindicated? Do you think it's going to keep going and we're going to get more or how do you feel about where we're at?

A

Yeah, I, I don't self reflect when I'm, when I'm fighting, when I'm going forward. That's like the death gargle, if you're doing martial athletics is thinking about what you just did wrong or, you know, what, what happened yesterday, you need to be fully forward facing and forward looking. So what I feel is optimistic, but I'm an optimist, you know? But now there's tangible evidence that we should all have optimism, but don' complacent in that optimism. Optimism is only powerful if there's action behind it. So what we need to do, in every single way, every person, we need to fight for what we want. If we want truth, we have to fight for truth. If we want inner peace, we have to fight for inner peace. Counterintuitive, but it's true. Okay. People ask me all the time, what can I do? It's like they feel powerless. I'm not this. I don't have this. A microphone. I'm starting a podcast, bro, I figured it out. Use your voice now. How do you do that? I talked to some grade school teachers, I talked to some high school teachers, and I talked to some professors at major universities. All in one weekend, right? They were all there at the McMinimans UFO Fest, which is the funnest thing in the world. They gotta come with me next time. You get a golf cart and a six pack of beer.

C

It sounds epic.

A

And I was put in jail one morning. And that's a true fact.

C

What?

A

It's hilarious. So what you can do is you can show other people your curiosity. If you have a class, none of us have the answers. You got a class. Teach it. What do you know? How do we separate critical thinking? The average singular person with nothing. They have five followers on Twitter and they're like, what do I do? There's a woman that came up to me. She's a little bit older. I'm like, oh, don't worry. If you have five followers, say what you're thinking and tag every representative that is fighting for this. Tag the Department of War. Tagnergy. That's the Department of Energy. Tag them. And here's why I know that's what you should do. Because I get calls from people that saw the tags and it affects them personally and it starts building. So imagine if everybody did that rap. Luna, great job. Keep fighting. Don't stop. Oh, my gosh. People read that stuff and they go. I mean, I notoriously don't because it's toxic for me. This organized attempts at that, you know? But that's what the average person can do. If you're a scientist, look at it from a scientific perspective. If you're a philosopher, look at it from a philosophic perspective. Teach it, pass it on. Show people your curiosity and they'll be weaponized just like you and me.

C

Jesse, let's go.

A

Yeah.

C

I want to talk about how you got into UFOs, which is described very well in this new movie, Sleeping Dog.

A

The first person that I ever pointed a camera at and was like, oh, fuck, it's like a Rubik's cube, you know, I gotta, I gotta, I gotta get this person talking. It was really hard. Was John Lear.

C

It started where a lot of people have to start with UFOs, which is you have to start with the widest possible filter. And for you, that was embodied in a man named John Lear.

A

He taught me how to keep my mind open, but not let my marbles fall out because he was spilling marbles sometimes. And it was, I'm gonna crack a beer for this part. I wanted to have a drink with Jesse. He's got water because he's an alien. There's my beer. So I like you. I'm not gonna repeat what people can watch in a movie, right? I like you. I think like everybody who gets interested in something other than themselves, you know, they look outward. And the ancient Greeks used to say that the stars were pinpricks from the beaks of hummingbirds. So that was a beautiful cosmology. And then all of a sudden, science stepped in, goes, actually, it's fucking cooler than that.

C

That sounds cooler than science to me.

A

No, I don't know. I, I, the orbiting planets, galaxies, I'm.

C

Come on, I'm going to take the beaks of hummingbirds pin prints. But.

A

So I love hummingbirds, man. They're fucking fantastic. They're amazing what they can do. Anyway, so I got curious, and I've said this before, you know, I heard George Knapp's voice interviewing a guy named Bob Lazar on the radio. They were replaying it on one station, probably K Rock or something. I was a dumbass kid. I don't know what station. You know, I wasn't really tuned into the whole coast to coast thing. I was 13, and something really happened to me that day. And people make jokes when I say my curiosity is weaponized. So I started making jokes. It's like when people call me fuck you, Forename. Online. My family all now calls me Forename. It's like you have to embrace the thing, right?

C

You do.

A

So what I embraced in that moment is that Babazar said, it's not a reactionary propulsion system. I think he said, it's a field propulsion system. You're falling where you need to get, which is the story of my life, actually. Which is hilarious, but you're, like, falling to it. And that just flipped this switch in me. And I was like, holy shit. If what he's saying is true about travel, then distance no longer matters. Because everybody told me I wasn't into UFOs and stuff, but when it came up, when you're a young kid, it's like all the scientists, like the Neil DeGrasse Tysons, well, there's no way. Life is probably way out in the universe, but don't be silly. They can't be coming here. The distances are so vast, you'd have to travel the speed of light almost for 36 years to get through our closest planet. All this bullshit. And I thought, damn, they really got it figured out. Unless Lazar was right. So I was like, because from rockets to roller skates, it's push something out the back, you go for it. Called reactionary propulsion system. So all of a sudden, if you're falling into time, space, distance is irrelevant. And I was sitting there as a dumbass kid thinking, oh, my God, is this guy telling the truth? That's what I was thinking. Because I thought, then, obviously it's not hummingbirds. Obviously, there are tons of planets that are in the Goldilocks zones in these hundreds of billions of galaxies, not just our galaxy. And I'm like, is he telling the truth? And then I went and, you know, just, like, met up with my girlfriend, started doing jiu jitsu more and, like, just dropped it like, it's hot. But I never forgot that moment, that feeling. It taught me that authority is something we bestow upon people, not something that they truly are. They can have more knowledge than you. That's what the word sensei means, is born before knowledge in you is born before knowledge in me. So you're my sensei at this, right? So everybody's teaching each other. A sensei is somebody that he has or she has certain knowledge that's born before. So you pass it on one generation, otherwise, and it's gone. Because it's a physical art, it's not written down. It's transmitted physically. You have to actually choke someone out, right? So to just back up, because I get so excited about this moment, I feel it as if it was yesterday. That's how it really got started. But I was a kid. I was sure I was just going to do the martial athletics thing. My whole life, I didn't think I was smart enough to do other things. And then I thought, well, maybe I am. But this is what I like doing. So I'm going to do what I like because if I do what I like, I'm going to get good at it because I'm going to practice it 10,000 times. Then all hell broke loose. And this is what you were talking about.

D

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C

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D

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A

Because of an illness, I couldn't physically train. So I said, what am I interested in? Fell into art. Fell into. Then getting a camera.

C

That was cool to see that you did that Sharon Tate exhibit. That was amazing. I like didn't realize how deep and rich of an art background that you had. And then that was kind of an expression of the pain of the illness that you fell into.

A

Dude, you learned that from the movie? Yeah, I did. Okay.

C

And it really, the movie's really good and I recommend everybody watch it because it really, it helped me understand your psychology and where you're coming from, what you're motivated by. And I think UFO space, now, you know, I didn't, I didn't need that from the movie because we've gotten to know each other. But UFO space can be a hall of mirrors. And if you, if somebody doesn't know you personally, I think it's a really good way to kind of get to know you.

A

That's what, that's what the kid sold me on, you know, that and the self defense mechanism of showing my personal life. But yeah, but I think that moment you were talking about was, okay, I've got this camera. First time I pointed it at somebody they spilled the beans. It was my grandmother, right? And she told me a story about my family that she had kept hidden from everybody. And she was like 90 or something. And I recorded it. I'm like, holy shit. So I pointed it at John Lear because I was like, who can I get to that seems to have these wild ideas? And if, say, crazy, wasn't crazy at all. Very sane man, you know. CIA pilot, did some incredible stuff. One of the youngest people ever to climb the Matterhorn. The dude has had so many life experiences, people don't know.

C

Won a bunch of flight records as well. Like, really amazing. Esteemed pilot, bro.

A

So he called me back finally, and it was so, like, come over Las Vegas, Nevada. Y' all will be here. It was the weirdest call. And I fucking packed my bags and I looked at my wife and there's a scene in the movie. I know the kid. My voice is all hoarse. That was after that first trip. The first thing I. Michael, just. I said, when you tell this story, don't put anything visually out of order. See, it exactly like it happened first time I roll up to his gate filming it. Like, that's all real exactly in the order it happened. So because of his openness to me, I mean, he didn't tell me shit about UFOs at first, but he was testing me, right? But that's how it started. And then I would just see these floods of people over the years just come into his house. He'd let everybody in. They tell him sometimes the craziest, and you could tell they weren't wrapped so tight, stories. And he'd just listen, like. Like he cared, because he did care. And then other people come in, and they were CIA, FBI, nsa, amazing pilots. I mean, just all these people, this world of people that I would never have had contact with because I had a camera. They would talk with me. They mistook me as a authority figure with that camera. But what John did was he had no filter, and that's the trap. The trap is you. Belief and actual functional reality start to blur when you have heard it all.

C

Yeah. Start talking about soul catchers on the moon.

A

And I can't. I can't verify his craziest theory. His. His wildest theory.

C

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

A

I can't verify.

C

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, what did he tell you that did check? Because I think it's important to caveat about him. He broke the F117 to George Knapp. He actually knew a lot about advanced aviation, well ahead of anybody in the kind of civilian world. And was kind of, you know, hanging out at Dreamland at Area 51 before anybody knew it was even real. So he definitely knew some real stuff, bro.

A

I have Original photographs from 1977. Groom Lake, Lake level, with a chain going across. John Lear drove out there many times back in the day when security was different. He came. I'll show you the photographs. It's amazing. He wrote to me, let's. It's Groom Lake, you moron. Let's go Wednesday. Because Wednesday was the famous night nights they would fly the. So what he did was he sat there drinking beers on the back of his pickup truck with a buddy of his, who I know, and he snapped a bunch of photos in a row of Groom Lake at lake level. You've never seen a photo like this before unless I put it out. Or Lear. I don't know if it was leaked online, but I'll. I'll give you a print.

C

Wow.

A

Then what he did, because it's John fucking Lear. And he's so. And they knew his dad, William P. Lear, inventor of the Lear jet Learjet. A track stereo became Motorola. His company. Whole crazy shit. Worked on some amazing stuff with people that you talk about sometimes, by the

C

way, towns and Brown.

A

Not saying shit. You're gonna talk about what you know will be. You'd be my sensei on that. So what he does, because he's so John Lear, he takes his panora. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. He sees the dust trails in the desert. You see the dust trails, the. What the fuck is this guy doing out there? Daylight, sitting on the back of tailgating with a beer, right? He takes the 35 millimeter film thing out of the camera, hides it under his ashtray, puts in another, does an identical set of photos. And when they came, they said, john Lear. Okay, well, you can't be here. You know, we're confiscating the camera. He goes, no, it's my camera. We're taking the film. They took the film and left. John drives home. That's how I have a photo of Groom Lake at lake level with a chain that I will give you a print of.

C

Whoa.

A

Crazy. 77.

C

What?

A

19. That was the year I was born. Oh, my God. He did that.

C

That's crazy.

A

What did he tell me that was true? He did break the story of the stealth fighter, but it was Ned Day. It was George Knapp's mentor in journalism. Shout out to Ned Day. Big sip here.

C

Shout out to Ned.

A

I've learned about Ned from George, so John had some credibility. He also knew A lot about CIA operations in the. When they were flying drugs because he'd never ask what's. What was in his flight. He'd fly anywhere at any time. And he gave me all these, like, this footage of him going in, like, these tiny little runways made of dirt, flying for the CIA.

C

Well, Iran Contra situation.

A

He was moving drugs a lot of the time.

C

Yeah.

A

Philippe, he says, I don't know, I'm just a bus driver.

C

You know, there's a famous photo of him with G. Gordon Liddy. And like, you've got. You're like, who this guy's in with, like the spookiest of spooks, right?

A

And that's why people think people would try to influence him in the negative ways. And maybe they did. But most people, like me, loved. There's something about John Lear. He had a laugh. I've only heard one other human being on planet Earth, and one day I hope to achieve this laugh. It is the most joyous, beautiful belly laughing. Almost like wink at the same time. You're onto something. You're onto something. It's just this really inspiring laugh. So he rolled deep with some people. So he verify, verifiably gave good evidence about a whole bunch of terrestrial stuff to the news station in Las Vegas at klas. He had a credibility there. He was running for senator, state senator at the time or something. And then he walks in with this UFO madness and nobody. Ned Day, George's mentor, he said. I think he said, if. If this was true, I would have already known about it. John George is like peeking over. It's like a young reporter, you know, and he's like, hey, John, I'll. I'll check out the files. And that's how it started. So that's why. Did I answer your question?

C

You did.

A

Sometimes people say, I don't answer questions. I'm just pumped.

C

No, that was thorough answer. Describe your first time meeting Bob Lazar.

A

Oh, wow. You know what that's like?

C

I now I'm. It's so surreal. I mean, I'm honored to have had that experience myself.

A

It teaches you a lot. Use the word honored a lot. Like, you know how we all have the same amount of time, so people choose if they want to spend it together. Right. It should always be an honor with somebody you're hanging with because you're both choosing in space time with limited amount of life. But anyway, so first time meeting Bob Lazar. Well, first of all, reverse the tape. You know that I wanted to know if he's a liar or not. That was the only thing I wanted to know. If he was not a liar then. I mean, it's so like, then distance doesn't matter. That's in my brain. Caveman brain. That's what I thought. I want to know he's a liar because the distance doesn't matter. That's my line of thinking. So John kept telling me that George Knapp won't talk to anybody because I've been trying for years to get to George Bob Lazar, there's no way. But he does. You know, Jon always wanted him to come for, like, a birthday party hit, so always had these big birthday parties. Really wanted to brag that Lazar was his friend, right? So he kept kind of telling me, you know, maybe Lazar will show up this year. And I'm always like, fucking call him then, you know, I'm like, I would love to. Just. No cameras, out of risk. So what happened was. Answer your question. One day I'm just filming with John like I did every day for years, or every week at least. I'd go out there every two weeks, so. Oh, God, what happened? Oh, and he goes, lazar's coming over. It's the first thing he says to me. I go, oh, because I got my cameras already all set up. We're doing our daily thing.

C

How well known was Bob at the time?

A

Right? See, it's very different now. Yeah, it's very different. So niche, right? So, like, nobody knew his name unless you're a UFO nerd on the paranet, Right?

C

So like a very popular city councilman or something.

A

Like, less than that. But in UFO land.

C

Yeah, sure.

A

He was UFO Jesus. You know, he was the Messiah. Yeah, you know, the. The unwanted. He, like, he didn't want the attention. It's like the weirdest conundrum of a guy. I called him the. The big foot of UFOs. Is he. Is he real? Does he even really exist? So my first experience meeting him was like, first I go, total respect mode. I'm like, I can't. I'm not even a filmmaker. Never made a film, putting away all the cameras. I don't want him to feel like he's walking into a bear trap. And I'm like, john, just talk with your friend. But I knew that all that was out there were these tiny little clips of him, these small, little hard to find interviews, and that the majority, 99% of what you read by getting to know Lear and all this wasn't true. So here's my pitch. He comes in. I'm just Looking at him, you know. Really good to meet you. Yeah. I'm making a movie, I think, Bob, when I got a respectful moment of silence. Bob, I don't know if you're telling the truth, but I do know from Noah and John, the entire world within this UFO little silo is saying things that aren't true about you. And three minutes of you talking would completely change the dynamic of the ratio of what people know, because it's just not out there. Do you mind if I push record and ask you a couple questions about UFOs? And that's when you see that footage. And he just unloaded.

C

I know there are alien craft here from another planet. I now I saw other ones, but I was inside one. I know it was not made on Earth. I know it was maybe with materials that we cannot fabricate, we cannot duplicate, and we've never been able to. I know it uses a power source

A

that's so advanced that we could only

C

dream of something along those lines.

A

And the energy density on it is phenomenal. And I. And I was just looking at him like, holy fuck. First time you ever hear him, like, fuck the noise. So. So I thank him. He sits down with Lear. I never release this footage. Michael put it in the movie because I gave him 20 years of my footage and he just used it. And it's. He's with Lear and he's arguing with Lear about Lear's crazy ideas, right? And so you see Rob, all the way back then being like the rational dude.

C

The Grays were controlling the soul sucker on the moon. And when you die, it sucks up your soul and it gets reprocessed unless

B

the Grays steal it.

C

I mean, come on, John.

B

What the fuck?

A

And it just. What it was like was like, okay, now I really gotta find out.

C

Well, he's a walking mind fuck.

A

Because he. That's a cool term.

C

It is. Because you. I. So I had the same motivation as you. And as, you know, and I. And. And I, you know, as of a few years ago, probably netted out more skeptical than believer when it came to his story. Not necessarily the, like, surface level details, but I thought maybe there was sort of like a cover for something else or something.

A

How do you know the information is all that you. Whatever information you have, you have to base your assessment.

C

100 and I the, you know, at the time and even now have immense respect for Jacque Belay, sort of godfather of UFO research. And he had said some negative things.

A

I pushed him on it once at my ranch alone, he and me were sitting there and I love him with all my heart. This is nothing negative, but I pushed him. I don't want to get into it, but like, what. Where did that come from? Specifically why do you say that? How do you know that? Do you know that? Are you just saying that? And I'm just saying, yeah, we are friends, but I stick with. I stick where I stand on that one.

C

Okay.

A

It wasn't compelling, but. But dude, he's incredible. And everything else.

C

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

A

Is compelling. But that, that idea of.

C

But you stress, you wanted to know where he was coming from.

A

You felt, is there something I don't know? Right, Tell me. I knew where it all came from. The. I know exactly, specifically who it came from, why they said it, what their second hand knowledge is that all in the scientific world, they start spreading around that somehow. So you know that he's a marionette, you know, Right?

C

He's some sort of MK Ultra.

A

Like he had bullshit.

C

Yeah, yeah.

A

But. But I, I do want to address one thing which is that I did have and do have a secret. And that's for me. And what that is is why I knew that Bob Lazar was telling it as it is. Meaning a facility like that exists. Exactly. What's inside of it exists. I wanted to find out if Lazar was actually there and saw it for his own eyes or if he was lying and being used as a marionette. So that day I knew for the first time, because I asked him certain questions, I knew that it was worthy of deep, deep, deep investigation. It took me.

C

So you already knew about the existence of S4.

A

I say that in the movie, that there was a lot of people knew about the existence of S4. Theoretically. What I'm trying to.

C

It sounds like you had a pretty good source.

A

What I'm. What I'm trying to do is go as far as I can. But we have to respect one thing. As a journalist, when someone says to you. This is for you to know, not to say, if you break that one fucking time, you're done.

C

Yep.

A

Nobody will ever trust you. And it's so tempting sometimes, of course, I'm just trying to say as cleanly, I'm not being oblique. I'm like, you know, it's a bright room, sunglasses off. I'm trying to tell you what I can while respecting my oath.

C

Yeah, of course.

A

And that is that I didn't go.

C

You had good reason to believe.

A

Yes, I had very solid good reason to know that Lazar was correct. Now, was he there? Right? Was he there and did he see it? You know? Cause that's another trick that's played when you're spilling information, like use people as emissaries to propagate a truth or a lie. So I hope I explained that to the satisfaction of your amazing and beautiful audience. And, you know, that's that. I had cause to want to bullet test Lazar. And then meeting him was the first step to me saying, okay, this guy is not a liar, but I need to really find out.

D

Legend has it that in 1943, the Navy tried to teleport a ship in what's known as the Philadelphia Experiment. And it worked. Sorta. It disappeared, reappeared, and then half the crew got atomically fused into the ship's walls. Others just vanished. No one was where they were supposed to be. Talk about a breakdown in communication. You know what that sounds like? Your team before you had Quo this year, upgrade your system to a workspace that keeps your team from shattering across dimensions. If you've ever tried to schedule a meeting across five time zones and six different platforms, you know the horror of losing people to the ether. That's why today's episode is brought to you by Quo, spelled Q U O. The business communication system. Built so you never miss a call. Your entire team can handle calls and texts from one shared number. So no more missed messages or dropped conversations. Everyone sees the full thread, replies are faster, and customers actually feel taken care of. It's the number one rated business phone system on G2, which is the premier place where you review these sort of workspace applications. It has over 3,000 reviews there, and more than 90,000 businesses rely on it to stay connected. So it has an amazing track record. No vanishing, no fusing into calendars. Just your team fully entangled and synced across time zones, timelines, and even caffeine levels. Money is on the line. Always say hello with Quo. Try Quo for free. Plus get 20% off your first six months when you go to Quo.com. jesse. That's Qu-U O dot com.

A

Jesse, this guy is not a liar. But I need to really find out.

C

Yeah. And I think something I want to talk to you about is. Is the fact that you really corroborated his presence at S4 Area 51. Because you. You spoke to some other people.

A

That one of the pilots that flew the Blackbird. Really cool plane. Yeah. I mean, look, in so many ways, not public, but also public. I got one dude on ancient aliens to give his testimony that, you know, he saw Lazar there. You know, wild. Yeah. Getting off getting on a bus. So it doesn't prove flying saucers, but it proves Lazar was there.

C

He proves he was there. Yeah.

A

Oh, dude, there's so many things like that.

C

That's. That's what I always say when people are like, do you believe him? I'm like, I a hundred percent at this point think he was there, and I 100 think S4 exists, and then I'm high probability on the story, you know? But, like, I can't say I'm 100, you know? But after spending time with him, why I say he's a walking mind is I asked him all my most skeptical questions, and the dude didn't bat an eye. He was cool with me just hurling everything. And to him, he's probably annoyed, right, because he hears all these things ad nauseam, and this is like, you know, one of his last kind of media tour. Maybe he does something else. But as you know, he hates media. And he's just getting, like, all these skeptical questions thrown at him from this kid he just met. And. And he was. Handled all of them gracefully.

A

And he's a great. He's a great human being, and he's a fighter. People don't know that, like, he is. He's very strong. He does. He just doesn't want more drama in his life, and he doesn't want to cause more pain, which I can relate to. To his family, to his beautiful wife and all animals.

C

He's had five heart attacks, too, since

A

you got to say that.

C

Yeah, it was on. It was on our episode. He talked about it publicly.

A

Okay. So, yeah, there's a lot of.

C

He said it's just from stress. He said his arteries are clear.

A

I've had five heart attacks from stress and other things from stress. And look, man, I really try to keep the personal stuff away because I've had problems with that. But there was something in what you said, just kind of meeting him. It's not good enough to say, well, I met him and I can tell he's not a liar. No, I want a tangible, actual proof, you know? And, oh, yeah, I found that. And so the question then becomes, do you protect this guy? Do you blow up his life? Dude, I started making the movie. Here's what happened. I never sign anything with anybody, and I don't make them do it right? So I show Lazar the movie and I go, look, here's the deal, man. I'm not a filmmaker, but this is. I want people to see who you are. It's not about proving anything. I Just want them to see how I've gotten to know you after all these years, right? We become friends. You've let me in your life. So look at it through. Through that lens. And I. I said, it's a gamble right now. You're so terrorized by. Anytime you say something, people twist it and they get angry. At that time, Jesse, people were really angry at Bob. He was. You know, it was attack, attack, attack. Now he's like, with you up on stage in Austin, and everybody's cheering, everybody loves him, but imagine the risk. So I say, look, I don't know if anybody's gonna pick up this movie. I don't know, but watch it, think about it. And I. And you can ask him. I said this. I said, if you want, I'll scrap the whole thing. I didn't have you sign anything. You know, this is, to me, I think, important. So I give him the movies with his wife, and they're. They popcorn. Like, let's watch it. And there's, like, excitement, like, oh, this is pretty neat, you know, and he'll call me right after. Call me right after. 24 hours goes by. Not a call, 48 hours. I mean, I have, like, the receipts, like, my phone. I thought it was so funny. I screenshot it. So I just calmed myself. I said, okay, okay, what's gonna go on? He calls me and, you know, he gets that, like, you know, she's struggling because he knows how many years I spent, and he knows that I'm. I want to. To do this. I want the world to see this. And it was just like, no. And I go, okay, well, what? So here I am being calm. I can actually do that, by the way. I can instantaneously be calm, But I don't like to. So I calm myself. I say, okay, what. What. What did you not like about the film? Well, why did you show? He didn't yell, but he's like, why did you do this? And I go, oh, let me walk you through why I did that scene, why I showed that personal part of your life. Oh, well, that makes sense. Okay, I'm winning here. I'm winning. You know, I'm like, okay, well, what else? We went through the thing, and he, to his credit, he's like, okay, you know, you made a good movie, okay? And I'm like, so that was the moment where the world almost didn't see it. And how that would have changed things is that people would not have seen who he was as a human, and he would have been this totem pole that you could just put gasoline on and light it on fire or worship, and you should do neither.

C

He'd probably be relegated to, like, deep corners of the wet. Like. Like Reddit forums and shit. Like, people wouldn't really. I mean, because then you guys went on Rogan, and that is the most viewed Rogan episode of all time. I think it has, like, 66 or 67 million views or something.

A

People hungry. People hungry for this. To Joe's credit, it also took an act of God to get Bob there. And, like, Joe had asked me about my first film, Patient 17. Actually, the first DM I ever did was Joe taught me via. It was a. It was a public post. You probably find it. And I was like, I don't know how or something. And he goes, dude, you have to follow me. I'm like, oh, so I follow. And then you learn. And I never sent a DM. And it was about patient 17. So it was like this weird thing. It was a movie I did before, probably.

C

I want to talk about patient 17.

A

But. And so then Joe, to his absolute credit, kind of kept tabs, I think, on the stuff going along the way. We weren't friends or anything at that time. It was like, you know, you never know where you stand. But he just asked me out of the blue one day, how I remember it. He asked me, can you ask Bob and you guys come on the show? And I didn't know if it was the size of the show or anything. I'm not following. I'm not tracking that stuff. I knew it was big, though. So the thing is, I said, joe, it was a phone call. And I'm like, literally a month ago, you know, two months ago, this came out. He said he would do one interview, one. And I took him on Larry King. That was like, the one thing he would do to promote them. Just sit next to me, the one thing. And I said, I don't want to do that. But Joe said these magic words to me. He goes, can you just ask him? And before I talked, I thought, can I? I can. Okay, I can. So, yes, I can. Absolutely. Because I would love it. I would love for him to be heard more, right? Not just about the film, just Bob, you know, and. And how cool. Somebody else who can interrogate him. You know what I mean? And so. So then.

C

And in a long form, you know, Larry King was, I love, you know, great, great legend, but he's got the suspenders, and it's like this legacy sort of format, you know. Rogan. Yeah. Unnatural. Yeah. Rogan's got the long form, you know, and for people to build trust, that's really important.

A

But I wasn't thinking about nothing. I was just like in this world state where it's like UFO Vietnam and someone's asked me to pull this guy back out somewhere to go on. It was months after the initial movie came, but right before Netflix got it. So basically the funny thing is, is that, I mean, it's hilarious. I was, I was. He goes, he goes, is he a disc jockey? Bob said. I go, bob, look, George and I are coming out because we have a premiere or a screening in Michigan. So we're coming out. Let's just talk about it then. So I remember texting Joe, like, okay, I'm going to need you to ask because I've really tried to do all this stuff with Bob, you know, and I don't want to. And so then there's this really funny phone call and George is standing over here and we. I said, bob, just get on the phone with Joe, dude. He's a good dude. Dude, just get on the phone. Like you can say no, but just hear the dude out. You know how people, Bob, you know, fill in the voids on. You just don't fill in the voids. Just talk to him. And I was like. So I get him on the speakerphone and. And Joe talks to them. And I remember Bob saying, okay, I'll. I'll think about it. That's a win, right? I hope it works, you know? You know, I hope it works. I would love to see that. George snapped a photo at that exact minute. And behind us is this 80s poster of like John Lear's face with the czar and Nap. And there's me and Bob leaning over. And that's the moment that really like Bob Lazar was about maybe to tell the world one more time what happened to him on a big ass platform and just do it. I mean, different than a movie, right? And my, by golly, did he ever. And that episode, I think why people loved it so much is because we are all starved to know the one thing. Is this true? Any of it? All of it? Some of it. I don't know. But it was cool as fuck.

C

It was cool as fuck. It was amazing.

A

And he didn't put the bone down, right? He didn't put the bone down so you could stop there. But he's had on. I get so joyous even if I don't agree with somebody, what they're saying, people on this. Bob's a liar. I'm like, okay, well, I can tell you what you don't know, but he's brought it into a popular culture thing where I think a lot of us wouldn't exist in the same way with this if he didn't. He allowed the discussion to occur.

C

Well, you were inextricably a big part of that, so I hope you just take that as a compliment.

A

I was sitting in the room.

C

I want to get into some other amazing people that you've sort of broken out into the public and are now part of the whole UFO conversation. Who is Dylan Borland?

A

Okay. Do you think your audience would prefer if I just give you really short, direct answers?

C

No, I think. I think they want the full deep. I love what we're doing now, which is just getting into it and, you know, talking to.

A

Yes. Right.

C

Yeah.

A

Okay. Yeah. Dylan Boylen.

C

That's Larry King.

A

Okay.

C

That is all respect to Larry.

A

No, no, no. He was awesome, dude. You know what he did? When I walk in with Larry King and Bob, I'm like, you know, nervous. But for Bob, because I'm making him do this thing early morning, I come in, Larry King looks at me, and he just, like, winks at me like a 1950s, like, you're gonna be okay, kid. But I wasn't the nervous one, you know, it was funny. He was a cool dude.

C

He was a cool dude. Yeah.

A

So Dylan Borland. So friend, intelligent. Balls like church bells. A man of faith, Husband, animal lover and protector. Honest, nervous at times.

C

Endured extreme adversity.

A

Endured extreme adversity. He doesn't have a roadmap because other people got shit cleared by getting stuff cleared. He would expose himself, so he has to dance a line until they let him talk. And he's endured extreme adversity, like you said. And people don't know all that. I was just with him for five days. We were just having a good time at McMinnville, you know? And I know I try to keep the private stuff out, but he just say he's very loved and has a loving relationship and is an absolute, in my assessment, honest, straightforward. He has a little ocd. Like, me, like, he's like, did you lock your room? I'm like, I think so. He, like, ran back up to check the door, you know, so he's fastidious is what I like to call it when someone's, like, fastidious. You know, that's who Dylan Borland is as a human being. He also is somebody that you should trust.

C

What did he experience?

A

Okay, that I can talk about? He told you in Congress is there was a large triangular shaped craft that was near the NASA hangar. It moved over towards him. It had zero sound. It had electrostatic, like the smell of rain. His phone had interference, went hot, went out. All the classics.

B

It was between one to two stories thick equilateral triangle. I could never see the top of it. And the edges were 90 degrees. There were four lights in total. One light on each corner and a larger light in the center. Two to three times the size of the corner lights. The craft itself was this black metallic flake paint. But on top of the craft was this gold lava plasma. Some type of fluid going over and around the craft.

C

Little lava plasma.

A

That was something that, if I had a nickel for every time someone described the seemingly intelligent gold undulating hue that engineers have described to me. They can't describe the exact. They're engineers. It really bothers them when they can't. They don't have the words or something. You know what it made them feel an intelligence. Now, Dylan didn't say that part, but if I had a nickel for every time I've heard that. So, yeah, that's undulating lava, lava lamp style. Gold. And then shoot straight up. You'd mistake it as a star. And then took off on a military base. That's what you know. And the world really knows up till the very minute, basically of what he experienced. But a lot more.

C

Sounds like there's a lot more.

B

I have direct firsthand knowledge and exposure to crash recovery, reverse engineering, integration of technology into redacted as well as the most important piece of technology on the planet. And it's not the craft themselves, it

A

would be the power source.

B

You can make that assessment yourself.

C

Is your sense that that craft was being housed at the military base or was doing sort of recon from above at the military base, or is it like anybody's guess and he's open to either interpretation?

A

Yeah, if he doesn't know, I can't know. I don't know. It is a conundrum. What was it doing? Were we operating it? Was it ours? Is it a program where we utilize things? I mean, look, if we have that technology, everybody's been lying to me. So if we have it, I really want us to have that technology. And there are some arguments.

C

You believe we have crafts. You believe we have crafts and saucers and hangers.

A

Oh, no, we do, yeah. Yeah. But I'm saying. I guess what I'm saying is some people claim that we have a modicum of control over them, like even Lazar, you know, they gave him the impression that we were flying it. Obviously, it seems that way. Low performance tests. So these triangles. There is evidence that would make me think that we've done something like a retrofit, but it's not something that there's a thumbprint for that is easily findable. I don't think there is one. So I think at best what we're doing. And this leads into other things that were told to me by an intelligence agency that I said for the first time publicly because my lawyer said, well, if they said that to you, you can. Dylan never said it to me. They did. And that's well documented. So I was able to say three things last weekend that were never said before and Dylan couldn't answer any of them. And to, to, to. To get to your. I'm sorry. Get to get to your. I think you're.

C

Can you say what the intelligence agency said?

A

Yeah, yeah, I can. But then we go off on a whole different tangent. It's just broke news. It's breaking today while we're doing this.

C

Okay. It's just high level. The, the.

A

Yeah, I, I can. But let's just finish this one little triangle thing.

C

Sure.

A

Which is, I think there is evidence that we. Meaning that the United States have been able to put a non human power source into a constructed body of other craft. The problem is, is it can't handle it. It's like putting a Ferrari engine in a Pinto, you know, and then you try to drive that fast on those wheels, you're dead. Right. So that's where I'm at at this point. The evidence has directed me to that. That we've made some exploitive deri based on it. But the skin of the craft, but

C

non human power source, the ability to make it work at all. Well, even if you can't retrofit it onto some. But that's what it sounds like what you're saying does.

A

So I'm thinking that it just does work.

C

Okay.

A

And then you're trying to harness that and not have the wheels break off. You know what I'm saying?

C

Sure.

A

So it's like, you know, you can

C

slap it on there and slap it on there.

A

Yeah, exactly. So that's to the best of my knowledge, without getting too specific and in the weeds for your audience. That's to the best of my knowledge. And then the three things I said. Is that what you wanted to know next?

C

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

A

Okay. So I said that I was directly told by a lead of the ODNIS diggs the director's initiative, that Dylan Borland drew four drawings, I think it was, which was a lie. He did draw three for the ICIG because it was filmed. So why the lie? We'll talk about that. But I think it was four drawings is what they said. So one was the craft and everybody knows that. That's just. He saw it at a base, doesn't know anything. But the ODNI told me that he had told them about Project Rubik's Cube. Now if that is a classified UAP program, then nobody should be telling me that, especially if it was said in a skiff. Now the problem is I already knew about it. Multi source. I don't know the full nature of Project Rubik's Cube, but I think they were trying to entrap him to see what he had said to me in George, in private. He had never said that to me, but I knew about it already. Multiple sourcing. Right. So George and I were like. When OD and I told us that, we said you said it, not us. Yeah, so.

C

So he shouldn't get in trouble, to be clear.

A

Well, he can't.

C

He can't.

A

He never said it.

C

He never said it.

A

So I asked him on stage, but

C

his face did look down in. I don't know.

A

I don't know what he looked like. I try not to look at him. I said, I'm not even gonna look at you. I wasn't trapping him either.

C

No, sure.

A

You know, I called Chuck McCullough.

C

Yeah.

A

Prior earlier that morning. And I said, here's the deal. You know, ODNI was targeting me and George and they were targeting us and all these whistleblowers. And then we got proof, by the way, the CIA, the whole thing that happened in Congress. We'll get to that if you want. So they're targeting us. But I said, chuck, they told me about Project Rubik's Cube and kind of long silence with Chuck and there's two more things. And he goes, well, he goes, you're a journalist. They have no authority. If they said that to you, it's on them. That's on them. I said, so I can say it? Yeah. Can I try to get Dylan to confirm that? And he goes, essentially as a lawyer, Right. If he knows or doesn't know that he is not in a legal position to admit or anything about that. And I said, well, I'm going to ask him if you say I can say that on stage because I think it's important people now know and I know Dylan can handle Himself, Nothing. Pre planned, nothing. He stood up in front of Congress and handled himself right. So I asked him. I was told by an ODNI agent that Dylan testified to icig, the police of the intelligence agencies that there is a UFO program and it's called Nubik's Cube. That's what he said. That's what. That's what I heard from the odni, which they shouldn't be calling me and telling me what was described in the skiff, should they? Right? So I'm a journalist, so I listen and I am testifying to you, believe me or not. I'm a bearded tattoo journalist, a great mentor. You don't need to believe me. Project Rubik's Cube. Dylan. I'm not even looking, dude. Have you. Have you ever testified to ICIG about a UAP program containing UAP called Project Rubik's Cube?

B

Let me collect my thoughts. I am modernist stiff. I am not going to jail. I can neither confirm or deny. But if you want me to answer that question, ask for amnesty for the whistleblowers, ask Congress and the executive branch to give it to us. And I'll answer that question.

A

In my read. That says if he is protected as a whistleblower and they want him to be able to talk freely, then he will absolutely talk about that. So he didn't confirm nor deny it. Smart move.

C

Yeah.

A

Now it gets weird. Through the intelligence agency. George was on the call through the intelligence agency. They said he drew obviously the triangle that he saw or whatever, but in the ICIG that he drew, a pyramid shaped power source. Pyramid, triangle, by angle of observation, pyramid shaped power source. Non human. We're talking about nhi. I don't know if we publicly said where that was being housed, but I have already reported this to multiple agencies that were trying to find where the legacy shit was being held. So this is like. I already reported all of this, what I knew, right? Factually, we're holding facilities when they're trying to hide it from doj, who's trying to, you know, find out where this stuff is. As a journalist, right, when the American government says they're hiding from us, I openly will try to help an agency go hold them accountable like another agency. Oh, I'll fucking help them, no problem. I'll tell them something. Not talking about sources or witnesses, you know, nothing to do with that. Third thing that was told to me by ODNI is that Dylan DO did a drawing of like a hieroglyph. And. And by the way, these were told to me they were classified. Why would you classify a symbol. What the. What the. So I imagine the symbol is somehow associated physically on the pyramid.

C

That's trippy.

A

Yeah, bro.

C

Well, because my mind, when you said pyramid, I started tripping out because I'm thinking about the pyramids all over. You know, disparate civilizations from thousands of years ago. From you can go to the Yucatan in Mexico, you can go to Peru and you can go to Egypt and you can go to, you know, Cambodia. And you know, one of the sort of most common things is a pyramid that is sort of a very common structure. And then what I also find fascinating is they are. Now there's a guy named Filippo Bioni who I've had on my show, he's an Italian radar scientist who, with synthetic aperture radar, Doppler tomography, has found this energy grid is what he believes it is. At least we know it's tubular, 20 meter long, eight of these things with coils wrapping around them that go a kilometer deep, tens of meters down below the pyramid. I've hosted a debate on my show. I don't know for sure if it's real, but it does seem like he found some anomaly under there. And there is something under there.

A

I looked at the Italian stuff too. I mean, there's something under there.

C

Seems like there's something under there.

A

Didn't Joe talk about some tic tac shaped metallic object they also found? Is that real?

C

That's in the labyrinth that Herodotus and Pliny the Elder and Ben Van Kirkwyk is now sort of reporting on.

A

Good beer. Pliny the Elder.

C

Pliny the Elder. We had to get him in somehow. Pliny. But yeah, and so I know less about that. But Egypt's so weird because it seems like there's like an underground city. Like even the most conventional archaeologists I think would say that there's so much going on underneath all of these kind of topological structures, even, you know, the Sphinx, there definitely are shafts below that. Even Zahi Hawass, who's like the embodiment of like, you know, gatekeeping in the region, former, you know, Minister of Culture, will admit that there's a shaft below the Sphinx and for whatever reason it's all like locked down. And I don't know, if you're Egypt, you've got to be thinking, what's the number one GDP boosting thing we can do? Dig, figure out what's under there and you find some new, exciting, you know, discovery that's like for all mankind and everyone's going to visit and Be excited

A

and celebrate being the disclosure president. Wouldn't it be great? I mean President Trump has forced this mandate and is following through so far. Look, whoever does this first is going to be hero for the rest of their life. Hero for eternity. But you're talking about something outside of my scope of knowledge and ability. Like I've heard of all these things but let's to bring it to.

C

So but maybe it's the UFO power source. Is this, this pyramid. There's some. Maybe there's something about the pyramid shape.

A

Yeah. So that's. Now I'm going to tell you what I pretty much. I'm pretty confident.

C

And there's pyramid tubulin in the microtubules of the brain that Roger Penrose and Hameroff think are responsible for collapse of the wave function and consciousness. And even Hal Puthoff who's out here in Austin talks about this as his best model of consciousness. And there are rumors of UFO legacy programs recruiting psionic assets to call in craft mentally. And so the tubulin pyramid structures in the brain might have some sort of part in that.

A

Okay. So now when you hear about tubulin brain structures collapsing the waveform of consciousness, I am lost on what those words represent in functional reality. However. Sounds fucking cool. I don't know about the whole psionics thing.

C

Yeah. What do you think? You think, do you think that's real?

A

It's just, just top level thing.

C

Yeah. Like the sky watcher stuff. Do you think any of that.

A

So I'm not like the.

C

And Greer pushes this stuff.

A

Yeah. So like two things.

C

Yeah.

A

One when I'm talking about a pyramid power source in a Cl. No, in a classified icig.

C

Yeah.

A

Alleged drawing from Dylan again he didn't tell me and he still says I can't confirm nor deny but I'd love to have the authority. The symbol hierarchy I think was the word was used to me and George. Hieroglyphic I think on the thing we're talking about something that you could put in other stuff, you know. So if we're talking about a power source I'm imagining that's how we would retrofit things. But I'm not sure on that. Like let me report back to you just, just the multitude of sources that we've got. It's all aiming towards this idea that there's different parts of technology that are held by different groups. And that's why DOJ is like saying remember I mean it was a public thing that we're like trying to find out it's a public thing. That Burleson rep. Burleson was going to places for different hardware. So I'm not speaking out of school. What I'm trying to say is there are certain different types of hardware that I understand to be held in different places. So I'm not talking about big pyramids. I'm talking about something that appears to maybe movable as a power source. Now, you just went somewhere else. I want to catch you back on where you left off, but I wanted to qualify that.

C

No. Yeah.

A

What was the last.

C

The last thing I was saying is, do you think this idea of psionic assets, is that real?

A

So. So what people don't know is that a homeless guy came up to me in 2013 and said, look up. Yeah. And I looked up, and I saw, like, a globe, like, just a. I didn't know, balloon, you know? So then I started. I think it was 2013. No, no, I'm sorry. That. That's. No, that was in 2020 and four, because 2005 is right after I was sick. So this homeless guy says, look up. Right? I'm looking up. It's a little bit more than that. What happened was I got a message on a YouTube video that I posted because I saw this thing in the sky, and I didn't know what it was. I filmed it. I called it the Silver Surfer, and I just. It looked like these zigzaggy things. Do you know this part of. Oh, this is cool. You got to hear this. Okay, so zigzaggy things. And I pulled out my phone. I'm filming. I'm walking in Santa Monica with my now wife, right? And we had a different pup, lucky three legs. So I filmed this shit in the sky, post it onto YouTube. Next thing I know, Bill Nye the science guy is saying, oh, I don't know. He probably superimposed brine shrimp onto the film.

B

It could be sea monkeys, which are brine shrimp shot in the right light and superimposed on the blue sky with the shaky thing.

A

I immediately go on Google. I look up what Brian Shrimp is. It's sea monkeys. And I was like. I was fucking pissed. So I, like, I thought people on TV there were science people, had, like, scientific method. I don't even know how to superimpose nothing on iPhone footage at the time. I was like. Like, just barely.

C

That's whack of Bill Nye, man.

A

Yeah. What was the first year of the iPhone?

C

2008, I think. 2008.

A

So it must have been 2008. So we'll look. You know what But I think of

C

Bill Nye, I'm like, that's such a bummer because he's, you know, he's like this Mr. Rogers character of science.

A

But I'm, I'm obsessed with accusing you of shrimp brine. Yeah, it gets better. I'm super obsessed with getting the right date so you can look up the video yourself. That's how you know the date.

C

Oh, so maybe it was a little later.

A

I used to get kicked in the head for a living. I, I, I literally when it comes to dates, I have to keep all in a phone and I use photos. So if you guys look up Silver Surfers, probably one of the first videos on my YouTube's probably there. What happens is he goes on the news. I get pissed off because I didn't know about news. What are you doing? Right? So I call the news station, I say, wait a second, I didn't superimpose anything. And they just dismissed me, right? And I'm like the. But they did this like, story about it. So I went to deep dive investigation on my UFO sighting. I mean, I went into like, and like Facebook and like, what was it? It was called, like, you know, all this stuff. MySpace. And I found all these people that had also filmed it. I got six angles of this, right? So I went like crazy, bro. I was like, no one's going to tell me, you know, that I superposed brine shrimp. And I literally A weird accusation, bro. I literally. Yeah, yeah, you might be a nice guy. I literally.

C

It's probably a science guy as well.

A

I don't know. Ever. Yeah, I don'. No. Oh, that's. Oh, so then I just like. So then what? Here's the deal, man. I get six angles of this thing.

C

Yeah.

A

So I can then figure out where it was. I figured it out. There's a bunch of people online. It's funny story, I tell you later about online. Who is there but figured it out. And I got the footage from the helmet cam of the Red Bull skydiving team with iridium flares that look like the Silver Surfer. So I debunked my first UFO case in life. So that's how I, I like finally realized like, you know, you gotta make sure and talk about. So I didn't never said it was ufo. I just asked the question.

C

Well, well, even then it was a ufo. It was an unidentified flying object.

A

But I solved it. And I realized you can solve it. I remember writing into like some UFO thing goes, hey, guys, guys, I have a solved UFO case. They were so not interested in a solo case.

C

It's a problem with, you know, a lot of the reporting in this space. They don't want the debunks.

A

But that was kind of like a funny thing. So where I realized that people were disingenuous and that they were just saying and that they're not authority, you know, on stuff and they're not even scientists.

C

Sometimes you also, I mean, there's so many layers to that story because it, it does eventually get. Get debunked by you more accurately. But there's like a fake debunk as well. And so you want the right debunk. You don't want. But then you also want the community to say that the debunks are important and they didn't care about like the ultimate debunk was. Right.

A

I would say debunk. I, I would say like you don't. So debunking means you're. You, you already have an idea and you, you have to fit it into that idea. In my. Yeah.

C

Or it means you were presenting it for sure as non human.

A

You weren't just saying, what is this analysis is analysis. You analyze. Some of the UFO videos are going to come out from. The government had deep, deep, deep analysis, like instantaneous acceleration. That is what you're seeing in that video. They did not want that video out.

C

Yeah, but even then, do you think that there are possible ways to poke holes in it and that there, there might be.

A

Oh yeah, dude. And look one day, you know, like what?

C

Like if it were massless.

A

If I get more. I was massless.

C

Like if it didn't. If it was some sort of, you know, looked real, like it had mass, but it was a hologram or something.

A

It got a weapons grade lock on it. And by the way, how do I say this?

C

So like, because you can technically look like you're breaking Newton's third law if you got.

A

So the debunk. Not the debunk, but the plausible.

C

And I'm not saying I believe.

A

No, no, no, I look, new information, I'm gonna absorb that. But we learned this the hard way. Life did. Did. You know, people did in a cool way. So yes, sure. Jesse, maybe that's not a ufo, you know, spacecraft that it's instantaneous. If you give me information, you should give it to the government first of all, because they disagree. But you know, because they, they have eyes on all the assets.

C

I'm sure they know that.

A

So here's my point. That was a deep dive analysis that came out right. Because George and I obtained and released it. Our government hasn't released it. I'm sure there's a pilot it, a mission report on that. I want that. The world should have that. So whatever. Yeah. And at some point you do your best, you put something out and then maybe it's not what you were told or what the government thought. And the reason I'm saying this is because in these, they call them tranches of releases, there's gonna be good information and bad information. And that's, that's why we want it out. So people, really bright minds. The Internet can solve shit real quick, right?

C

That's why I struggle with video myself. Because I'm like, I'm not a VFX guy. I don't know, know. So I see some of these videos, I'm like, they look compelling to me. But like you could probably give me some and I would probably think, you know, maybe that looks compelling too. So I just try to like not even weigh in.

A

Let me argue why. It's tip of the spear.

C

Okay?

A

Right now, now this should change, this should change. But right now it's tip of the spear. Because man, if you were with me 15 years ago, you'd be one video from the military. Are you kidding me? You go crazy, man. You're gonna get, get bad stuff inside these UFO drops from the government. Not because they're trying to trick you, but because certain products have been highly evaluated and there's multi sensor platforms, some they can't show you like with the 2019, 100 UAP swarms, some were pyramid in shape, some were somewhere. Look, there are other platforms. So when you have multi platform, multi sensor, some of that's going to be really good and well thought out and the government should be giving that up to you. But some of it's going to be like, like this looked cool. That pilot says that was crazy. And that's the pilot report. But here's how we learned the hard way, in a good way. Those 46 videos, that's the tip of the spear. Just to begin the process, the last, the first tranche of stuff that they put out. George Knapp and I had reported on something called the Baghdad Phantom. We released seven images which were still shots because obviously people are leaking. So I don't even. We, we make it in a way so we could never even know sometimes. But we validate everything. But we put it out, we told people, here you go, it's cold, it's running through here. And you're like, cool video dude, right? And all Of a sudden, it was. Wasn't a video. We just stitched together the images, but the process worked. They knew that people knew about that case. So guess what was in that first tranche was the actual video of the Baghdad Phantom. That felt good to me and George because we're like, look, we're pushing transparency. But what people missed. If you look and read through all the documents like a psychopath, there is a mission report of that collection. So that's before it gets into the disinformation arms of the old Arrow, because now everything's gonna be thumbs up, from what I understand. Maybe. Maybe. No, I'm just. I'm going like this. But we're gonna hold them accountable, and they know that we can. They know exactly how we can. So one of those ways is look at the mission report from the Baghdad Phantom that was supposed to be declassified in 2047.

C

Whoa.

A

Just the mission report.

C

Well, that's cool that that came out.

A

It did. Because what it does.

C

What does the mission report say?

A

Look at what the pilot said. It's very simple. It just shows the process is working before it gets, like, twisted by intel agencies. Like Arrow has been acting like one in the past, given maybe future props. So. So that is what I'm saying is you learn that when you put something out. If the pilot report was like, oh, no, we knew what this was, then I would know that wasn't a uap. When they label it uap, when they talk about how it went by them super fast and they tried to keep the camera on it. Right. And. And they got as much footage as they could. It reinforces what I said. Central Command has a bottleneck to UAP information before it gets to the people who legally supposed to get to. Who want the information. So we informed them about that and about the bottleneck at centcom, because we found out about it.

C

Anything else of note that the pilot said in the back?

A

No, it's. It's really simple. It's just an example. It's just an example of a mission report that goes with footage that you were told about three years prior to it through proper reporting. And it should give you confidence. Confidence that reporting is working and that pushing this way works.

C

You mentioned Arrow under Kirkpatrick. It does feel like it was not only like a, you know, an intel agency or something or a modern Project Blue Book kind of trying to dismiss, you know, many UFO cases. It seemed even more nefarious than that. It seemed like maybe it was acting as like kind of a fly trap, like it was explicitly getting leads on. The cases that I'm most familiar with are some of these nuclear cases, Arrow.

B

The people that took the testimony from these veterans did not record them. They were told. A couple of the veterans were told, well, we're taking notes. Well, if you're conducting a serious investigation, you want to tape record every word, every grunt, every syllable. And they did not record any of

A

the interviews, according to the veterans.

C

And they wouldn't take notes, but they would maybe take high level notes about where, you know, certain evidence would lie. And then they might even go and try to find that evidence and destroy it in certain cases. It just seemed like a total limited hangout with ties to UFO legacy program.

A

Like.

C

Like the definition of bad actor agency is my sort of rough assessment. But what's, what's your assessment for, you know, for.

A

For people to say I don't answer questions directly. Here's a direct answer. You are 100% correct. It is exactly my assessment, and I can back it up. And there are a number of ways. In a court of law, Arrow was acting as a counterintelligence against the American public to siphon out what people knew and then to be able to clamp down on them. It was a honey trap. It was a disinformation campaign. Dr. James Latsky even said that on our podcast, Mine and George's. You know, he says, well, they're sure acting like it. Aren't there something like that? This is a known thing. Now, I have direct, specific knowledge and evidence of exactly how that mechanism worked. Recorded, documented.

C

Whoa.

A

Oh, yeah, bro. So, for example, if somebody. But there's a lot of good people that work at Arrow, by the way, shout out to the good people. I do know some good people that work at Arrow, but it under Dr. Sean Kirkpatrick, all the way up from the NASA people that are sources of mine who have told me what, what it's like in the room with him, what he tried to do to the direct harassment of witnesses. Not. I'm not talking about dismissal. I'm talking about harassment threats. And I'm not. I'm not sure how to go far to go right now. But imagine it's recorded, so recorded. So in the court of law, I could prove that Arrow was intimidating and harassing whistleblowers. And it's wild. Yeah, man. So them. Sorry, in that, in that old version now I hear that Dr. Kozlovsky, everybody I know that knows him professionally before he was in that role. Yeah. My job is to have sources everywhere, right?

C

Yeah, yeah.

A

Yeah.

C

What do they say about that?

A

He's a great guy.

C

Okay. I've heard similar.

A

That he's an honest guy.

C

Yeah, yeah.

A

Now he is in Project Blue Box. It's the modern version, much more sophisticated. The battlefield is, is cyber. The battlefield is social media. It's pr. Notice what he asked for when he went up? The last thing with Gillibrand? All he asked for wasn't more money. He asked for public trust. Because he realized coming into that job, poor guy. After it was just kind of shit on by Kirkpatrick and shit on by Tim Phillips. Right. Coming after whistleblowers publicly on like LinkedIn with when? Are you kidding me? Is that in your job description? Project Blue Box, dude, it is worse than Project Blue Book. A book. You can open a box, how do you get in?

C

And it's, it's so bad. It's so bad because it's. You can literally tie its inception to legacy programs. So Kirkpatrick was at saic. If you study UFO legacy programs. SAIC is all over that stuff. Ronald Moultrie, who is office of, you know, under Secretary of Defense, had Battelle on his resume and scrubbed it. If you again study anything about UFOs, in fact, you can even go back to the pentacle memo at the inception of Blue Book. And Battelle was behind the scenes doing sort of, you know, the more real stuff while Blue Book was kind of doing the front facing things. So, you know, definitely legacy stuff going on there. It's obviously, you know, very close to. Right, Pat, you know, Ohio State, a lot of interesting stuff happening in that sort of nexus. So it's, it's people where you don't. Glenn Gaffney's on the board of era. Glenn Gaffney, who's Director of Science and Technology, the CIA, who's blocking UFO transfer between Lockheed and Bigelow, which we just discussed with Lekatsky. So you have three people who like

A

the guy that George Knapp said his name with his hand raised.

C

That's right.

A

Congress. Glenn Gaffney. That's right. In the transfer of a non human intelligence craft.

C

I have a name for you.

B

Go ahead.

C

Glenn Gaffney, CIA.

A

So those are the three people who

C

are supposed to be helping we, the American public make sense of UFOs.

A

Congressionally mandated. It's crazy, dude. Bro, I'm so glad you, you're tracking all this because the average person is not. And not everybody can track all that. So like putting that out in a digestible way, explaining that to people that there Is a generational pattern of relationship, just like you would have in any organization or agency or group of people. Cabal, you know, I don't know the word. Edgar Mitchell said like a group, a secret group of people.

C

Is that what he told you? He said a secret group of people. Because I know you. You interacted with. With Edgar Mitchell, the sixth man to walk on the moon.

A

Sixth man to walk on the moon. Allegedly. Some people would say, I don't want to get into that.

C

Neither here nor there.

A

He absolutely. In the film, you see, there was the last filmed interview before he died, from what I understand at this time. Spent many days with him and he was very clear with me. He really let me in. He knew that time was ticking. We became friends. He lived for a little while after, but that was like the only filmed like, you know, cameras in his home kind of interview before he died. Lived longer. But then we got down to brass tacks and yes, that's exactly what he said. He told me who he talked with. I knew about the Wilson Davis thing long before.

C

Wild.

A

Yeah, of course, you know, the things that George and I can't say, you know, look, man, there is a. I wish it was organized. There are groups of people holding information back from me for no good fucking reason. And the idea is how do we get it out? We can't take it.

C

But Mitchell talked about some sort of cabal, some sort of closely knit.

A

Yes, he did.

C

Interesting.

A

Yes he did. But not that he knew everything.

C

Sure.

A

And I didn't dodge your Sanex question. We should get back to that for your audience. Right. But yeah, Dr. Mitchell talked about how. Because look, six man to walk on the moon. People want to talk with you. Born in Roswell, New Mexico, bro. Right.

C

Yeah.

A

He behind the scenes and in front of the scenes tried to be an advocate for truth and transparency on this because he knew it was true. The whole enchilada.

C

It's so interesting to me. The dynamic around this whole topic is you have people like Edgar Mitchell, you have. Have Wernher von Braun at the end of his life talking to Carolyn Rosin. His.

A

His text me sometimes.

C

Oh, amazing. And she's cool and she's talking about some planned alien invasion. And then you. I feel like you have modern equivalents of them where it's like guys who are really well respected in their agencies or you know, with their past credentials people like Latsky or Hal put off. But those guys, everybody I just mentioned considers themselves an outsider.

A

Yes.

C

And that's interesting about this whole topic because you have Guys who are. Have very high security clearances who can, you know, walk into all these places, like, no questions asked.

A

Bigotless.

C

Yeah.

A

No, there's bigot lists.

C

Okay.

A

You have to. So what do you.

C

What do you.

A

Yeah, it doesn't matter your clearance. It's need to know. It's very simple. Yeah, there are bigot lists. That's what happened.

C

But there's a cabal that's deeper than Wernher von Braun. I think of Wernher von Braun as like, he's got to be part of the.

A

He's on the inside of what he needed to know. Like how Bob was on power and propulsion, you know, with Project Galileo. But worse, you have. I hope there is a cabal that is planning how to do this right. I don't think so, because everything's been provoked and forced. But, yes. All these people, you know, that you would imagine, like Hal put off. Maybe he also just can't tell you certain things I know for a fact.

C

Yeah. Like, you know, I know there's a lot he probably.

A

For example, somebody you know. And you might know this, but somebody you know worked on a laser weapon system from a downed Russian NHIS spaceship. Someone you know. Have they told you that? Nope. Just saying that because you're on camera.

C

No, I really don't know who you're talking about.

A

Okay, so somebody.

C

But I'm extremely curious.

A

Somebody you know.

C

Yeah.

A

Worked on the reverse engineering.

C

Yeah.

A

Of a laser weapon system.

C

Yeah.

A

From a downed Russian asset. This is an NHIS last name, Start with D. We're not playing that game in front of him. I'm trying to.

C

Well, there's one person who said something along those lines.

A

In a documentary. You're an investigative bro. Okay, here's the deal. What I'm saying to you is that even if they wanted to.

C

Yeah.

A

They can't tell you how much they know. Now, are they in this cabal planning shit? Oh, fuck, no. Who those people are? Highest. Highest up on the food chain. All I found is the cabal of people who want you not to know. Not the people that do know. Did you really hear what I just said? Because that's important. I found the people that want you not to know know, but not the people that do know the full thing.

C

Yes.

A

I don't know that anybody does. Yeah, I. I don't know.

C

Blind men touching different parts of an elephant.

A

There we go. I. I can relate to that. The parable. Yes. Something like that.

C

So the question is, that's apparently what General Neil McCaslin told Tom DeLonge, it's in secret.

A

That was an op because no general like that. By the way, he's a boomer. Okay. I've learned what that word means now. I had to look it up, which I'm not ashamed of. It's a cool word. Boomer, basically. Anybody from that era of national defense will never. Do you think he sits back and listens to Blink 182? Do you think that guy. Honestly, on his free time, do you think he had been to a concert?

C

I don't know.

A

Why is he talking to Tom? Right. Love Tom did some amazing stuff. You know, he pushed this forward.

B

Yeah.

A

Good for Tom.

C

Yeah.

A

So I, I really.

C

I'm a huge fan of his. I think he's awesome.

A

His music too. Yes. I don't.

C

And, and as a person. And as a person, I think he's.

A

He's no dude.

C

I think he gets a lot. He gets a bad rap sometimes and Absolutely vigilante, like, really helped get a lot. You know, shake the tree down and get a lot of.

A

Let's make this clear.

C

Yeah.

A

Tom DeLong is. Yes, he's a rock star, but that's a tiny little piece of who he is. He is like you. He is curious. He is fascinated. He called me back in the day before he was ever.

C

Yeah. He's genuinely fascinating.

A

Genuinely. He used to read all the books with the blink thing and he, he, he. George is always making me get on calls with people and I don't know who they are. He says, really? Before you talk to him, that. I remember this call driving home from Vegas from right after. I kind of got to know some. Somebody else. But I'm driving back and Tom calls me. He's not like in the UFO world in any way at this time, and he's just talking to me. He knew so much about the UFO thing, so people put him in as like, oh, this rock star, and blah, blah, blah. That's not what I'm saying. I'm not saying they wouldn't talk to me because he's a rock star, dude. He trained with George Knapp on, like, how to make his. What the pitch is, how to use his face and his fame to get in there. You know, he got into, like a Lockheed, little soiree. Tom did it, dude. He pushed in. He got through. He went for it. He became proactive. Instead of being a consumer, he was a consumer for years. Like all of us reading books, he did that, man. And he gets a bad rap because people jealous they weren't in that room with Tom or they weren't in this with Tom, dude, He's a good dude and he's super knowledgeable on the UAP thing, but when I said it was an op, this is important to me, the distinction of that. So George is helping to sharpen the pitch of Tom and hooking him up with some people people don't know about was, look, you got a bad rap, you've had to keep this secret and that's going to change. So you need to look like the good guys, because you are good guys. You were just protecting America. But now it's gone too far. It was something like that in a WikiLeaks email.

C

Yeah, yeah, that.

A

Oh, okay. Yeah. So, so, okay, so, wow. So what happens then is you got this boomer now, do you think When I say it's part of an op, I'm not saying it's bad, I'll explain the op, but do you think someone like that charged with protecting our national security, which by the way, he's missing right now.

C

I know.

A

So that's interesting because if that was like Russia or China and they got him alive somewhere, what does he know that they want? Not UFO related.

C

What if it's some rogue element of the program?

A

Well, so that would be really sad and that would be really fucked.

C

So I have trouble believing it's an adversary.

A

I'm just saying all options on the table because we don't know. But what's the op? So a guy like that, yeah, he ain't gonna talk to Tom DeLonge. He doesn't listen to his music. He's a boomer and he has this oath like Lekatsky. You think Locatzky be calling up rock stars talking? No, no, no. So when I say op, it's not a bad thing. That was an operation, meaning there were people trying to get shit out. Now, not all of it is true. And don't be one of those people that believes everything just because someone gives you one good piece of information. So if you look at that and if I look at history, here's what I would think. Here's my putting on a little theoretical hat. I'm thinking that Hillary Clinton thought that she was going to be president. And I think that certain people knew that the information was dying and that we needed bright minds just a little bit. We just need a little bit of knowledge out there. Or maybe she thought she'd be disclosure president because her husband really tried until they crushed down Webster Hubble after asking look back at your history. So Clinton tried. Maybe she could be the disclosure president. Okay, how do we pave the way you do an op, right. You. Not negative, like actual information authorized from the White House people in the White House. Now you can start seeding because when come times. Because I'm going to win. She thought, everybody thought, everybody thought there was no way this guy, Donald J. Trump could become president. Remember that?

C

That.

A

Oh, yeah, people thought that. Right? Or. I'm not a political person, but I remember people saying that.

C

No, he was a complete sleeper.

A

There was no way.

C

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

A

Okay. That's what they're telling me.

C

Yeah.

A

So basically this guy McCaslin, one of many that Tom was talking to, obviously WikiLeaks you mentioned. Okay, so then what happens? Wow, shocker. She's not president. So what happens to everybody that was part of that. That what happens to everybody that was prepping the battlefield for disclosure, which we all want, as long as it's true what they tell us and not a fear campaign. Right. So if it's truth, what do they do? What do all these people do? Now that. That didn't work. You gotta, you gotta pivot, you gotta change. And we're starting to see, We've seen that. If you've been paying attention, who are those people? Good people, bad people? What do they want? I think good people.

C

Well, there was definitely a threat narrative that came out of, you know, elements of, of that group. But that was very, it was very like, you know, they're prepping the battle space. You know, they're, they're, they're doing recon, they're looking at us. And I've always had an issue with that narrative in particular. I think it's sort of. I think anyone that says they're only good or they're only bad is so ridiculous.

A

Yes, I absolutely, you know. Yeah.

C

Like.

A

And can you trust them? So if, like a ET Comes to you and says, I come in peace, you're going to destroy the world with your technology, you know, spread the word.

C

You can't take anything at face value in either direction.

A

Like with that. With any human, the words don't matter.

C

That's right.

A

It's the action.

C

And if somebody speaks in absolutes about intent on either side, I don't trust them.

A

I'm like, because you're not an individual and every individual has different intent and why would it be different? But we can organize. So let's look at the fact. The fact is they've turned on nukes, They've turned off nukes. They didn't Stop. Hiroshima and Nagasaki. They've constantly been watching. Call them the watchers. Right? They've been watching for what seems like the beginning of recorded human history. Whoever they are, Is it one group, is it two group factions? Or who freaking knows? Are they angry at each other? Are we a commodity? Are they protecting us? Fact is, they haven't, like, neutralized everybody's brain where you're walking around like a robot. Right, so that we know of.

C

That we know of.

A

Yeah, we know of.

C

I know a few robots, but.

A

So the threat narrative. Let me hit that on the head with you.

C

Yeah.

A

Oh, me too. I think it's fucking ridiculous because if you talk to people that actually had interactions, it's like a mixed bag. Some people, it's like the greatest thing in their life. Other people is terrifying. Totally like patients 17, terrifying. He didn't tell me that. So after I saw it got cut out of his leg.

C

This is a guy with an implant.

A

They called it an implant. I had it. I stopped analyzed for zinc 64 one time, and they wouldn't give me it back. I talked to Jacques Ballet, showed him the results. It was way beyond the scope of terrestrial zinc 64. Isotopically, I'm not a fucking scientist, but

C

it had isotope ratios that you'd never find on Earth. And Roger Lear took this out of this patient?

A

Yes, this was his last page. We can get to page 17, threat narrative. This is for you. I'm talking to you. I don't give a. About this. Right, yeah, I agree with you. Here's the thing. Why. Why do they have that narrative? Don't look at them like bad folks. Like, why?

C

I think it's probably some sort of armaments build up in space and, you know, things of that nature.

A

You're a deeper thinker than me. All I'm thinking is it's their fucking job.

C

Sure, yeah, yeah. When you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail. That too.

A

So all these people are coming from a military intelligence, national defense point standpoint. They have to think about it. It's in their blood to think about it.

C

But I would, I would just say one. I would add one thing to what you just said, which is, I agree with that. And then it's like, why now as well? So, like there's some sort of ramp up in the threat narrative. It seemed like around that time. And so maybe it's because we're in a nuclear multipolar world, but like the, the nuclear thing had been happening since the, you know, 50s, 60s, 70s, the tampering with the nukes and stuff. So, like, like the, the, the, the going public about this could be a threat seemed to start at that time. I don't know why.

A

Okay, but. So I'm curious. That is fact. So, but let's play that out. Like, is that because there is a threat in their minds? That, yeah, it could be, it could

C

be genuine on their. They, they could really believe it.

A

I suspect it. I don't feel like they're trying to make humanity scared of it, like on the big scale. That's not the big message I'm getting from all of this movement. It, for me, it's more of curiosity. Let's say they did that. Let's say that there. It's an operation to control people. That's ultimately what you're saying is that. I think you correct me if I'm wrong.

C

No, I'm not even going that far. I think it's possible.

A

Anything's possible.

C

Anything is possible. And I. What's that?

A

With this? Yeah, with this.

C

And I think it's a smoke screen. I think it's a Rorschach test. And I think it could get used for Bluebeam style stuff, religious awakening. It could get used to clamp down, and then it could be extremely libertarian and subversive of any kind of institutional authority structures. And so it has this infinite superposition of possibilities attached to it. And I do think people are trying to manage the narrative. I think they're trying to manage the narrative and shape the narrative narrative less than some of the people I meet on like, you know, Reddit forums or whatever think. They are like, you meet these people and they're like just earnestly into it. And maybe they've been socialized in certain spheres to believe certain things, and that shapes their belief in implicit ways. I think they're less sort of, you know, bad actors, I think, than some of the people on the Internet think,

A

you know, that's for sure. But yeah, you know, look, I mean,

C

we just listed a bunch of bad actors, but it's. It's like there are bad actors, but it's. Yes, it's not, it's not everyone. And it's. I find it interesting that there's. There's a certain type of person who's. It's like they're so. They're real, they're angry and they're railing against the control system around UFOs. Like, it's like this parapsychological control system around this whole topic. And my second order thought is always, if you're Spending all your time so angry at this. You're probably part of the control system. You're probably falling prey to it.

A

Well, not only falling prey, but you are allowed to run psychological campaigns of disinformation on the American public as Americans. That is legal. That is law. You're allowed to do that that night.

C

Is that true?

A

That's what that from my understanding, like Google that shit, look it up. But from the Obama era, the idea of, of protective programs and being able to seed American news. Look, we've been doing it.

C

That's interesting. Did it start. It became legalized somehow under Obama.

A

That's what smarter people, legal scholars.

C

That's fascinating.

A

I, I don't know if that is accurate. So I'm not a legal scholar, but

C

that makes me, that makes me wonder about some of the UFO related narratives that popped up around that time as maybe because maybe it was on the back somewhat of, you know, well, fact check the Obama law change or whatever.

A

So fact check me on that. That is my understanding.

C

Right.

A

This propaganda, the idea. Right. That we're allowed to deceive the American public for protective programs. Right. Like that is 100 legal. And now the new terrain is all digital because that is the way that we consume information. So the real battlefield is the battlefield of, of freedom of thought. And that occurs on social media, in news, in all media that is consumed. And they've gotten very, very savvy to the point where you. If. I mean it's so easy like if you get a AI to look at the repeated words and the timing in which people post and when they created their accounts. Dude, I've got a whole list of people everybody says I should block because it's an organized attempt to take a single post. I, I had to say. And then, you know, diminish it and make me less credible so that, that that world exists.

C

Oh yeah.

A

And it's called shaping the emerging UAP narrative. Why I've said that now for the 400th time on camera is because I was exposed to a CIA document that gave the mandate. The mandate was to shape the emerging UAP narrative, which I thought was so interesting. Not control, not stop. Shape it.

C

That's wild.

A

As if they know this narrative is emerging. So how do we shape it? And I'll tell you, there is a news source.

C

Anything specific about how they were shaping in what direction?

A

So the documents that I was, I am familiar with.

C

Yeah.

A

Are CIA documents. Yeah. I reported those to FBI with George. Because it is illegal. What, what they started saying in it is Commander Fravor misidentified his instrumentation. And I was thinking, yeah, it's picked up on radar. How the hell do he saw it with his eye? What are you talking about? There were five other sets of eyes up there. So I started thinking about as I'm exposed to this, like, is this document real? First of all, I was just exposed to it. I don't know how better to say it here. Legally, I was exposed to it. Never had possession of it. Don't have it. Was exposed to it. How I validated that document was through doj. So this document was talking about shaping the emerging UAP narrative. I will tell you this. There is a news publication that popped up right around the Lazar movie coming out era. And I saw them grasp the ground and the terrain that is a CIA stood up, up media source.

C

And they were trying to say, oh, this is a real. It's like, this is like an outlet

A

that is an online publication.

C

And you know the name. And it's like, yeah, bro.

A

Yeah, bro. So Kitty say or what the. I talk. I'll talk to you in person about it. But like, I think. I think I want the world to. To think. Yeah. And question.

C

Yeah.

A

And then review. I gave you enough information now to know. Know.

C

Yeah.

A

That is a CIA stood up media outlet.

C

Okay, so what are the clues? It was. I popped up around.

A

Around the lazar time. Yeah. One of the best. Yeah. Around the lazar time I'll get. Maybe I'll. I'll text you more specific. We'll put some images in and just blast them out. But there's a bunch of people that work for it that are good people. They have no idea. They're literally just getting a job. But you'd have to kind of operate this from overseas is another hint right on this publication.

C

And are they UFO specific or no?

A

So that's what's funny is yes and no. Like there's other really good articles and writers and there's like great valid stories. But when you need something seeded into the media as CIA, it's great to have a bunch of people working for this. And then any story that comes down from the king you put in and you know exactly which writers to talk about, talk about, you know, to talk to, to seed him some very special information that is breaking news. It's so classic textbook CIA. We go back to, you know, even I heard that a lot of the journalists, you know, were on payroll. We've got their names now and what they were paid and all this stuff all the way down to people you really trusted back in the 60s.

C

Whoa.

A

Right.

C

No, I think Operation Mocking.

A

I think this is public knowledge, right? So if this.

C

I think I might know what publication you're talking.

A

So if they can't buy you.

C

Yeah, yeah.

A

If they can't seduce, I'll use that word, like seduction, whatever that means. Like, you know, something alluring. If they don't have blackmail on you and then they try and can't get you to bite on that blackmail, then they're kind of running out of options. So what can they do? They can start to diminish your public profile, and they can threaten you, and that's the way you control somebody. Now. They're not trying to stop people who have loud voices because you're useful. These are intelligence operations, right? You're. They're. You're useful to them if they can get one of those five things I just mentioned to shape what you're saying. And that's what's so dangerous. I mean, you got to be squeaky clean, watch your back. You got to document everything. When Chuck McCullough says, in my movies. Not my movie, Michael Lazofsky's movie, I gave him 20 years of footage. He made it. And to my chagrin, if that's the right word. Like, I had to ask my whole family, like, is it okay, can I show the dog? You know, he wants to do this. It should be protection. He's saying it's protection. So what. What My point is, what are they. What are they doing by shaping the narrative that's already emerging? Is it sinister? Is it what Jesse Michaels said it right now? Is it to create a level of control and threat so everybody goes, oh, God, Big daddy government, you know, protect me, because there's something coming, you know, like a big craft, really slowly to earth. Oh, my God, so scary. Or is it to acclimate you for something that they know is going to occur?

C

That's the other possibility. And I hear mutterings of that all the time, all the time of like. Like, you know, certain dates and, you know. And I almost like the Book of Matthew of, like, you know, only God knows the day or whatever on the apocalypse. That applies to. And that has its own stigma, and I shouldn't even say, you know, reference those things in the context of kind of a more scientific conversation. But I think that applies to this, you know, 20, 26 or 7 or 35. No one knows. Only God knows, or only some omniscient force knows.

A

Or it's just complete and utter.

C

Or it's a complete bs.

A

And the funny thing is I can call bs like I did on that. I tried to get out ahead of, you know, you behind the eight ball. I want to be ahead of the eight ball. Yeah, on that one. I came out and said, look, all these intel people, I have taken all of this information, these conversations, all this data. I basically run it through a way to look for key repeated words. And I found this. It. I, and very directly too, was trying to be utilized to propagate. Oh, you want something really special is happening. Like something really special. But I'm just gonna tell you what the tell everybody. If it's really special, it's important, right? So the manipulation of me, that's why I came out and said, look, my fear is that you're going to be told that there is a craft slowly moving to earth and it's. And then, you know, just the world.

C

I was, I was told that too. And you were.

A

Yeah, yeah, I knew it.

C

But I always just. Whenever I get something like that, I just. I just don't like, I, I'm like, I know what you're doing. This is passage material, right? This is a test.

A

It's.

C

It's probably some sort of bizarre passage material. Slash, can I trust you hybrid or something? And I'm like, either fucking way. I just don't want to like ever mention it again.

A

My. My fear is that.

C

And then if somebody totally independent says something, then I'm like, okay, maybe.

A

But like, you're the reason. One of the reasons why I would say that publicly because, you know, I knew I'd get shit for it and everybody would like, you know, cut that up and make me a crazy person. I said it out loud. It's because people like you have said to me that you were getting that same.

C

Oh, yeah.

A

So now all these people speaking loudly are getting the same messaging and it's like, so we have to defend against that or we become a part of that machine and mechanism. Now ultimately, end of the day, I don't know. But I highly doubt that that is accurate assessment of what's happening in 2020. I was only 36. Whatever.

C

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

A

But hey, I'd be wrong.

C

Do you think? I think there's something so unique going back to Lazar. There's something so unique about him because he's this kind of hapless, like normal person engineer. He's not. He doesn't have any sort of counter intel background or anything like that. Do you think we get another Bob Lazar coming out near Term. Because I think that's what a lot of people want. I don't think they want the person who saw the thing on the document or that, you know, that the who knew the other guy and that person worked directly or, you know, I think they want another Lazar.

A

We almost got it and he's dead.

C

Tell me more.

A

You know about this, right?

C

Sullivan, right? Yeah.

A

Okay. So a little example.

C

Yeah.

A

Fact he was to testify behind closed doors.

C

Matthew Sullivan for everybody.

A

Matthew Sullivan watching. Right. Matthew Sullivan was one of the 40 people. You know, that number's loose. There's probably more that David Grush brought to the attention of the icig. Matthew Sullivan was fact two weeks about before he died, I think going to testify. We call it behind closed doors because you know how people have taken in to speak in D.C. that you will never see publicly. This is to inform them, taking them in to testify. You're under oath, you're in a skiff. I have facilitated over 10. Oh, yeah. Yes. So the question is this Matthew Sullivan. Now I didn't know him personally, but I knew he was going to testify. And that is testify. And that's why people and the FBI are investigating if his death was suspicious because it ain't adding up all the math. Now he could have just been PTSD and broken down and scared and. But that's not the word on the wash. So I don't have any direct knowledge that I can talk about of that case. But I do know the FBI is looking into it and there's a congressional letter. And I do mention if you read between the lines, I didn't know that this could be public. I didn't know this was going to be public. He's one of the two people that I'm talking about when I say, you know, mortal crimes, we don't know a. It's a suspicious death and he was going to testify behind closed doors. He had direct, direct hands on with the craft. That would be like Lazar, wouldn't it? So, man, they wanted to stop Lazarus. They don't want people that would convince everybody out. Because now.

C

Were you in touch with Matt?

A

It's a really sad story and I just. No.

C

Okay.

A

I was kind of trying to figure that out recently. I get a lot of signal messages and they delete a lot. And I did get a message from him and it deleted. And usually I try to be good about keeping those, but it was on a thing. But I never talked with him. I was trying to figure that out because of my memory. But I can show you on my phone. What happened?

C

That's a bummer, man.

A

It's a bummer because I was hoping maybe he was reaching out because I could take people from embryo. Scared. Dylan Borlan, you see him in the movie, that audio. He knows I speak always on speakerphone and by my NEST cameras. He knows that. So Dylan Borlan, he knew. Knew that I was doing that for our own protection. So in the movie you hear him really scared. And that's way before we knew that we were going to get him standing hand to God and a country and be able to testify. That road is so hard. It takes me two and a half months sometimes for national security people to vet some of the witnesses that I want to testify to you. A lot you'll never hear about. You never got to hear Daniel Gauckerel. Small story, but I had him unweaponized after he saw a triangle. But these. These badass that worked on the programs, you have to understand they're so locked down, they're not in there because they're trusted. They're in there because they have legacy generational trust. Most of the people in the legacy atmosphere are. It's not because just you are trusted. It's because your grandfather was trusted, your father was trusted. You got kids who are going to be trusted in that same intelligence circles. So they're so tightly packed in there. To get somebody to break out of that cage is dangerous for a lot of reasons. Because why would you do that? You have to think this is so critically important. Otherwise, keep your head down to your work. You're on one of the coolest projects on planet Earth. Literally. Do you understand what I'm saying?

C

I do. Yeah. That's crazy that maybe he was taken out.

A

I don't know, bro.

C

The timing's weird. Weird the time.

A

There's a lot I said about. But I. Yeah, let the DOJ do their job.

C

Okay. Damn. But like you feel pretty confident that he was working directly on the craft?

A

To the best of my not. Do I feel very confident? Absolutely. Do I have all the information? No. But I think people that have more information than me and knew him should speak to you, not me. Interesting about him. Is there going to be somebody, man, it shouldn't be on Bob Lazar. Our government should come forward and this is the problem. Problem. The first release is a bunch of videos, bunch of documents. Wait a second. Didn't David Grush raise his hand and say that we have been generationally exploiting non human technology? Hand to God and to country and say that we have these programs. And didn't he say that we have alien bodies by a lot? Didn't he say that? Oh, shit. Where was that?

C

In the releases, the IC Inspector general said this is urgent and credible.

A

Sure. But now we got a real issue. The ICIG is the police of the intelligence community. That. That'll. That might come out later. The. The question being this. Who's the real watchdog here? Can we trust them?

C

Well, it doesn't seem like they've acted on Grush's, you know, report that he handed in in 2022, four years ago.

A

So. Man, I don't know. You know, I hear there's a guy and I hear he's a really good guy and I hear that he is the current icig. I hear that his name is Christopher Fox. And I hear that if someone like him being active icig, wanted to and didn't have to recuse himself for some reason, that there's actually four people. Because I've talked with Chuck, who was the first ICI in American history. So he, you know, pretty much. I'm pretty sure he knows the job. I think if they wanted to, that they could rapidly come to conclusion on that ICIG report. I think the icig, I think that they also have the video footage of Dylan Borland's testimony. So I think that this could be very rapidly sorted out if people wanted to. You feel what I'm saying?

C

Yeah.

A

And I also think the one thing I didn't tell you because we got into a different space is the fourth thing that I heard directly from ODNI is that Dylan Borland drew a fourth drawing of a sensor system. Oh, but that's really classified because it's not UFO related at all. Now wait a second. They were asking me, did he draw that first for me? He drew me a triangle on camera. Didn't draw nothing else. Here's what I know as fact. Dylan Borland wouldn't even know what the they're talking about or how to. How do you draw a sensor system? Jesse, you're a smart guy. You're basically a scientist. How do you draw a sensor system? So they lied to me. Why did they lie to me? They lied to me to get Dylan Borland on treason, which carries a life sentence or death penalty. They lied to me about Matthew Brown saying he's a Jew hating racist.

C

That's so crazy.

A

Oh, when I told him he was at a Jewish wedding, he was like, what? By the way, he's part Jewish.

C

Let's bet. Let's back up and tell people who is Matthew Brown?

A

Okay, I just want you to know that Odie and I, I ran an operation for nine months. Not all of them are bad people. Actually all of them are good people, but some of them are doing a job. What their mission was, their mission, if I had to assess, it's just my opinion was to co opt me and George to go against whistleblowers and to fabricate evidence. Fabricate evidence against an American hero, a whistleblower named Dylan Borland. To fabricate evidence against Matthew Brown to pressure everybody into a corner. But why? Ultimately to control Congress's ability and ambition to continue what they're doing, having hearings. I could probably prove that. Actually I could prove that in the court of law. So go wow motherfucker. We got that going on then put on top of that. Did you see a few days ago that the head of the dig, the Directors Initiative Group, which was the part of ODNI that came to me and to George first and we provided them a ton of whistleblowers and people just saying hey, telling the whistleblowers we don't know if we can trust them, but do your best, right? And they did it. Most of them talked with them, I think very smartly. David Grush didn't. I don't think I am confident. Tulsi Gabbard was completely unaware that the CIA was running an operation through ODNI on journalists, on whistleblowers who were bringing in saying they have ultimate authority to protect you. You can tell them them anything, right? But wink, wink to the whistleblowers like really careful, throw them some underhanded pitches first to make sure they're not running something. Here's what we find out. A few days ago a CIA agent goes in front of Congress and he says I ran the dig. He got emotional in it. He's like the CIA. He said I ran the dig, the Director's initiative under Tulsi and I don't think she was aware that she had these rogue elements, you know, like we're talking about little cabals from the CIA by the way, running this op on us. And he says like he's a whistleblower. He says he found out that when he was running the anomalous health effects, the COVID cover up and the UAP initiative of the dig, that they found out and he's CIA. They found out the CIA was spying on the whistleblowers. That means everybody that we brought in, their computers, their cell phones, everything, he's self admitting he's self admitting. CIA's response was he wasn't authorized to speak to you on Twitter. You're like, what the fuck? You're not denying those claims. That is illegal. He said that's illegal. He got emotional and. I don't know this guy. John, John. John something the Third. I don't know him. Oh, boy. We should have a talk because if you ran the dig, did you know that they were trying to entrap me? George, Dylan, Matthew, Lou Elizondo, La Caskey, Jay Stratton. Like, did you know that? As the head of the dig, did you know that? But I suspect I want to see the unclassified version of that report. Who's Matthew Brown? That's what you asked?

C

Yeah.

A

Okay.

C

Wow. That's.

A

Bro.

C

Interesting.

A

And that's just breakfast. Let's get to.

C

Look. You have the agency that's supposed to oversee all other intelligence agencies being red teamed by what's supposed to be a subordinate agency in the CIA. That's a pretty wild phenomena.

A

I think that's why people like you, because you just took a very complex thing that I'm very emotional about because they tried to hurt people I care about and use me to do it. And you just made it simple.

C

I try.

A

Thank you. Yeah. Okay. Who's Matt Brown?

C

While they are observing the Russian vessels, a large black triangle materializes or decloaks or something.

A

The point is, is it did not move.

C

It appeared above the. Directly above these ships. Probably no more than 200 meters.

A

Matt Brown, courageous as. I mean, just goosebump. Courageous as Matt Brown. Absolutely 100% worthy of your trust. Has a loving family relationship. I met his dad, his mom, I think two of his brothers talked with his wife. He's got cats, you know, he's had to.

C

Seems like a kind of a gentle soul.

A

He's not as fragile as people think because you know, he'll tremble when he gets angry, like. Or scared or nervous. And I'd be nervous as fuck, too. I snuck him in to have a secret congressional briefing with three members who all said yes to me. Like, snuck him in with my camera crew. He has balls of steel. He's so smart. What an asset to America. Patriot. He's a patriot worthy of your trust. I said that. I won't say it again. He revealed immaculate constellation to the world. That was a thing he has endured more than I'm comfortable saying here. From a personal standpoint.

C

He was at the office of the Secretary of Defense, right?

A

State Department.

C

He was at the State Department, yeah.

A

That was his main job. But he was at Pentagon before that

C

and he had tssci and yeah, he was doing some like audit or something. How did he run into all of this UFO related and

A

I mean, I think Matt should talk for himself. So. So you notice sometimes people say. I don't. I am so protective of people. And you know, there's so much that goes into my brain that like I have to be gentle with because one wrong little word and I expose something they didn't want exposed about them personally. And then they get harassed.

C

But. But high level. He was doing some routine thing and he bumped into documentation of.

A

I can tell you this part.

C

Yeah.

A

So on a shared intel link server there was something misappropriately uploaded. So anybody can go in. But at the time he was kind of in a purgatory. It's like he has to like basically clean up a bunch of files. Now he's fastidious also. Good word. Right. So he goes in and looks through everything and puts them in the right place. Boom. Sees immaculate constellation. The heck is this? Right? It actually had a picture of Lou Elizondo on it. Not that Lou made that. It was saying that Lou came forward in the UAP space, but it caught his attention. Right, okay. And then he starts going through it and he's like, dude, this is not supposed to be on this server. So what did a real patriot like Matthew Brown do? Do first thing, because you could. Everybody can see. He goes to his boss or his boss's boss and he's like, you know, hey, this was not supposed to be there. I was not supposed to see this. It looks like a working report. And they're like, okay, cool. Goes back to his desk or whatever. And I hope I'm saying this right. And Matt, you can speak for yourself and you will very soon people are going to find out. So how I understand it is he was so nervous by how they reacted to the spillage. They call it where you see something that you're not supposed to be read into that. He's like, dude, they're gonna throw me under the bus if I need to tell somebody else. So he goes and tells somebody else and the reaction kept being this like, okay, but like no assurances to him are you doing the right thing. So that gets under your skin. You get a little worried, right? I mean that your whole career is your. Is your clearances. If they even put your clearances in purgatory like they did to Dylan for years. They're not saying you don't got it and these are people trusted by our government. In Dylan's case, really, really trusted. Bro. I can't say the agency specifically you worked for, but you could subcontractor for the big ones. Okay, sure. So there's Matthew alone. Who are you going to call? Batman? Who are you going to call? Dude? So he proactively, being a very thoughtful person, documented everything, every move, everything documented for self protection. Also because he's like, why did I get exposed to that? And also I think as a curious guy, he had some time on his hands and probably kept his eye out for UAP information. Right. And here's a guy that like an all source analyst. I don't think he was, but like one, you kind of start putting together what they call the mosaic and you look for what you know to be true. Then as a dutiful, patriotic person, when he realized what was going on and how dangerous it was, and that's as far as I'm going to say, say about that. He can talk because not everything's cleared for him yet. He can't like go ask State Department again. He came to me very early on and was able to get that information into the hands of the people that I trusted and I do trust still and were in position of power and could assess it. That's how it began with Matthew Brown. That's how it began. He didn't know who to trust at first. He made some mistakes or we won't get into all of that. But some people are not worthy of your trust at all. All journalists don't try to pay people ever. Jesse.

C

Interesting.

A

That's not a journalist.

C

There was something.

A

Bro, let's not get into it. Right. You said you don't want to. Okay, so let's not.

C

We can if you want, but dude,

A

let's talk about things that excite us.

C

Okay?

A

One day people will understand. Yeah, one day people will understand. What makes me angry. Angry.

C

I didn't know anything about.

A

I know you didn't.

C

Possible pain.

A

That's why you. No, no, we're not saying specifics yet. Don't make it.

C

No, I know.

A

You might have just made an assumption.

C

Well, I think I made a correct assumption, but we can just move on.

A

So this is gonna be so awkward for your audience behind Jesse and I. We made one agreement going on is that there's, you know, we're. We're just going to talk freely and that we're going to enjoy ourselves and talk about what makes us happy and inspires us and, and sparks our curiosity. It's Basically what we said last night, right?

C

Yeah, exactly.

A

So I want to. I want to do that.

C

You know, this is your credit. I did say I like to focus way more on the truth than people. Drama.

A

Right, right, right.

C

Because I think it's so much more interesting. But, but, but it's an important heuristic if a person is also, you know, a conduit for information.

A

So people. People drama. I stay out of. But dangerous people. I inform everybody about it. Because the thing is, is that you gotta know who to trust. So you. You're not working in government, I'm not working in government. So we sign none of these NDA shit. We don't gotta do fuck fuck all when it comes to UAP stuff, right? With listening to what people tell us to do. Like daddy, right? But the other people do. So the stakes for them are so much higher. So imagine if there were a bunch of whistleblowers and they go to the wrong person to say, I need to see if you can get me from embryo to hand to God and the American public, right? And you go to the wrong person. That could be one of those five traps. I told you. And then you're controlled, they own you, and you're fucked. So if you're outside of this world, that might feel dramatic to you. The problem is that it's true. True. And that is a real issue. So let's say you've got. I get photos from people at Wright Patterson and they've got up on their cork boards, you know, weaponized stickers, Jesse Michaels podcast. Their favorite people come up to me on the street and tell me that they love your podcast. I sent you videos with some of your fans. So, like, you get people in these offices and they got. They're. They're just fans, okay? They don't know much about UFOs, but they, they saw some on radar. This happened or that happened. Then you narrow in from those, let' say that's 5,000 people, right, that have hit me up in the last year that are inside government. Then you narrow down. So now you've got, let's say, 500 people. So those 500 people, they know something a little bit more very specifically about UAP and whatnot and the reality. And then you. You narrow down to, let's say, 50 people. Now they feel like they want to tell Congress or Senate or formally report. I'll get those calls. How do I formally do this? What's the mechanisms? Who can I trust? Not trust? And I'm like, okay, here's how you do it. I'll link you with them. We'll make a call, I'll bring you in. If it's really important, I'll meet you there. We'll do this. Signal's okay for that. Then you get from those, what was that, 50 people. You, you get in and you narrow down to, let's say, 10 people. Now those 10 people, they know something more. And those 10 people, they really need to tell people. But okay, so you gotta deal with those 10 people. People. Then you narrow down to, let's say five people. The amount of information they have compared to those 500, 5000. It's like critical. It's provable. It can be national security issue. It could be dangerous. How hard is it, do you think, for someone like that, that to break from the fold and say, I have tried everything. I am now going to leak something to a journalist I trust, which is an illegal act and I've never solicited. I, I actually tell people if like a young kid called me from a base and, you know, blah, blah, blah, and I go, stop, don't even talk to me. You got a long career ahead of you. Whatever you saw or think you saw, keep it in your head and one day you'll be able to speak freely about it. Do not tell me you know that joke I have going right now. Don't call me. And I've got that number going around. That's what that's born from. I say to people, don't call me ever again. Find me in 10 years when we're living in a different world. You got a long life ahead of you. It's not that important for your life and your family. But I'm just trying to show you that the amount of people that know, dude, but then the amount of people that know, know that would think it's so important to leak something is so minuscule, it's so tiny that it baffles me to this day that people all day, every day contact me and George. And they put that trust in us, and they should, and we're trustworthy. And, you know, we do get leaks, we assess them for years and we, our primary thing is do not hurt American security. Security. I think that's why we've been effective. But I'm just trying to show you, man, like, you talk about a cabal and all this. I don't know who knows all this, but I know who doesn't want you to know about it.

C

Yeah, Matthew Brown's super interesting to me, especially your interviews with George Knapp and him because he obviously ran into some pretty hardcore immaculate constellation documents around quarantining sensors.

A

To be real clear, Matthew Brown is not a leaker. He did everything by the book. Because we just went from that conversation.

C

Yeah, yeah, not, not Matthew Brown segue in my head.

A

Matthew Brown tried to do everything under God that he could do the, the right way. And he did, he got, he got pre pub from State Department. You know, so it's like just boom, here we are. Matthew Brown. You want to say something? Go.

C

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well so he ran into all this kind of documentation of this stuff and he saw video and you know, photos and that sort of thing. Thing. And then he has kind of a whole worldview that he's kind of associated with his findings that feels almost like gnostic in nature. And he talks at the end of your interview. He says, you know, people are a resource maybe for the nhi. And he says things that to me are extremely intriguing because I prefer actually in some ways like the sense making layer, like what's the worldview, what's the ontology that you know, you were talking about earlier that comes from all the data, not just what's the data. Sometimes I think we, we over index on the data itself. So I mean extremely like my curiosity's peaked and then my other side of my brain is like. But how did he come to that conclusion?

A

That's a personal thing.

C

Sure.

A

Yeah. So everybody again, I don't want to speak about people, they should speak about themselves. But you know, he has a very fascinating mind. I, I can say that like from his, his own personal stuff. The way he sees the world is a, I mean I learned so much, you know, from like a sensei. Something's born before in him. Even if we disagree on the fundamental nature of that reality. I think what you're highlighting is that online he said some very gnostic kind of quoting things and yeah, that's the

C

way his mind talk about almost like a White House timeline manipulator too. Like they have sort of timeline. Yeah, like they have some sort of AI timeline thing.

A

Oh really?

C

Yeah, yeah, it was like a super, super AI at the White House.

A

We should always be ourselves, right? That's the thing. In this interview I keep thinking Jesse asked a question, he's got something to say and then I say so much, we gotta just be ourselves. Matthew has a very unique way of thinking. He's so, so like pointed and fastidious and he'll be silent a lot of time on calls and just listening and Then he'll say something. And it's very thought out, very thoughtful. So I think what you're seeing is what we call personality.

C

Yeah, sure. Yeah. Yeah. I just. Okay, well, at some point, maybe when this is all said and done, 10 years into the future of disclosure and it's all acceptable, I want to go deep within or, or if I can at any point go deep with him on how did he get from the data to that worldview? Because the worldview is interesting to me. I'm like, what, you know, what happened there? But I realize he's gotta speak for.

A

I don't think that was from like, if you read the documents or saw the videos that he has testified to seeing. Right. Not. He hasn't been allowed yet with his hand up in front of Congress. We fought hard for that. He didn't want to, to have his face out there, you know, at all. But I think if you read the same stuff, because I know a lot of people that read and saw the same stuff and more than he did, they don't have the same worldview.

C

Interesting.

A

Yeah. Yeah. So it's not like in the document, his interpretation. That's what I'm saying. Okay, well, that's helpful.

C

I mean, that even the. What you just said is really helpful that other people have consumed the same thing and not come to the same. Same worldview.

A

Matthew Brown has, has this much of the mosaic.

C

Yeah, yeah.

A

A tiny, tiny. All he did was be a whistleblower.

C

Yeah.

A

Because there's a lot of other things that, that he can't talk about that weren't. There's a lot of things, corruption, things to do with WMDs. That was his specialty, that, that he also whistleblow on that people don't know about. About, you know, it's just not public.

C

That's freaky. But on, on another note, because I'm sure you can't say more about that and maybe, maybe a good note to, to, to end on and close this amazing conversation. What do you hope for the world, you know, 10 years from today, you know, snapshot of where we are with respect to this issue specifically. What do you, what do you hope to see?

A

See, it's like I'm, you know, I can't look back, but I'm trying to look forward now. It's kind of. If the truth is that there are technologically advanced craft, that they've been here since the beginning of recorded human history, if not before that, major, all the major technological nations on Earth have started to try to understand and replicate and grow and evolve from that technology. And if the truth is that we've harmed people and lied, our representatives have lied to us, and if that is true, and if we have biological entities that are not from planet Earth.

C

Have you talked to anybody who's said they've seen biologics?

A

Yes, in my work, 100% a ton. But, Jesse, I need more proof and I can't solicit as a journalist. That's a specific word. So. So of course, do I believe them? About half of them. The top dogs. Other people, they just want to seem cool or they want to get into my head for later. Yeah, yeah, I've heard that. Mostly autopsy reports.

C

Okay.

A

Yeah.

C

Anybody, like in person with the people

A

have told me that, Jesse. But like actually a public interview I did once, the anonymous interview when I brought Richard Dolan in to interview this man as he was dying on like, I think it was like a dialysis machine who had got him out of the thing. And he came. His wife didn't want him. Oscar Wolf. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's his real name. But I wasn't allowed to release that for like a long time. I have his DD214s.

C

Crazy story. Yeah, it's fascinating.

A

I had to be real quiet about his real name for a long time, but it was. I have his DD214s, all his stuff. I. Setting up that interview with Ruben Langdon, who set up the entire citizen hearing on disclosure.

C

He saw one. He saw alien getting interviewed, according to him. At S4. Area 51, I believe. At S4, we viewed the autopsy film and then the colonel said, what we've got in here is we're interviewing a gray alien, bro.

A

That is so in my ancient past, I'd say just watch the video.

C

Yeah.

A

My impression is that if I recall, he was one of the people that I'm saying that has, like, said that because you asked me a live alien. No, not a ton of people have said to me they. They've been or seen a live alien in government capacity.

C

Yeah, but versus experiencers.

A

Yeah, but a lot of autopsy readouts. And I know which autopsy. So that you. You start narrowing it down after the years and you know, people that don't know each other have kind of run

C

across enough where you're pretty high confidence. That's a component of it. Yeah.

A

Oh, we got bodies.

C

Yeah, yeah.

A

But like, I don't. Are they cybernetic? Like, are they printed flash with AI high minds? I. I don't know. But yeah, I think that's the ultimate thing. So you're asked. You were asking me to go. What do I hope?

C

Yeah, what do you hope?

A

So I'm just trying to. Sorry for the details. No, no, I'm trying to stay on your tracks. Yeah. So it's like, ultimately, if I keep saying if. If this is true, if this is true, this is my best assessment. Right. Then I would hope that those tasks with withholding the fundamental nature of what it means to be human, which is to interact, packed with a larger idea of being, would then stand the down, tell the fucking truth, and let human beings decide for themselves if they can handle it. That's what I would hope. Now, people have hoped for disclosure for a long time. Way before me, before I was born. Born. I was born in 77. Before I was born. None of them got it. Now we are getting something right now, but we're not having the conversation.

C

No, but I hope it. It snowballs. You know, I think you kind of saw it with the Epstein stuff, where like, a little bit came out, and then people are like, whoa, there's something there. And then they wanted more, and they wanted more, and they wanted more. And then you have all of a sudden representatives in the civilian, you know, Congress. Congress who are fighting to get more out, and you get more and more documentation, and slowly, it just kind of snowballs. And I think that might be similar with this topic or JFK or a lot of these things where the consensus just shifts over a long time horizon. So while you can sort of. I know a lot of people kind of belittled this drop or think it's a distraction or whatever, I think it's the beginning of infinity. It's not the end. It's the beginning of a possible paradigm shift. And that's. That's so exciting.

A

The beginning of infinity. I was saying it's the floor, not the ceiling. It is the beginning of infinity. I am hopeful that we're going to get somewhere, but the only way we get there is if we push. And we do it asymmetrically. And everybody that has a voice and everybody that has a desire, just use it. Just move. Keep talking. Don't take nothing personal. Sticks and stones will break my bones, but words will never hurt me. Me, right. Just push. Push. I bet you that tomorrow we will know more than we do today. I bet you when people see this, we'll know more than we knew the day before. And yeah, man, I'm optimistic. I'm glad to have you in the fight. And everybody that has a microphone or thumbs can just make some noise.

C

On that beautiful inspirational note, go watch Sleeping Dog. Check out Weaponized, subscribe and anything else you want to plug.

A

Yeah. I want to say that it took a long time for me and Jesse to trust each other, because trust is never given. It's always earned, and then it's built. And then every day you keep reinforcing. The trick of being trustworthy is to actually be trustworthy. And so I'm grateful that we get this, construct the room and we get to do this for the first time and that, you know, we will continue this dialogue until we're old, old, old men.

C

That's what I kept thinking. This whole converse. So fun. And, you know, I would love to run it back, so.

A

Yeah, but just keep fighting, keep pushing, keep doing what you're doing. And I would like to do a two minute rapid fire because I have questions for you and you can put it in your episode. Episode or not.

C

Sure. Yeah.

A

So this is back and forth, rapid fire.

C

Okay.

A

Okay. Did you start this, what you're doing, with the intention to try to get information to the public that you thought was important?

C

Yes.

A

Are you independent or are you controlled?

C

Independent.

A

I know. Do you have people that support you in your life so that you'll keep

C

going, like loved ones and.

A

Yes.

C

Yeah, I do. Yeah.

A

Okay. Have you found friends that you really trust at this point in this part of your journey?

C

I have.

A

Yeah.

C

On this topic, I had before this. I.

A

On this topic.

C

On this topic. Yeah. Yes, for sure.

A

Yeah. Yeah. Will you protect that always?

C

Yeah. Before anything. Before, you know, relationships. Over. Over anything.

A

Will you tell the truth if you find out something is incorrect and will you tell it loudly?

C

Oh, yeah.

A

I believe you.

C

Thank you, Jeremy. I'm glad I passed the test.

A

It's not a test. I just, like, I learned those things about you through time.

C

Yeah.

A

But now maybe people learn about you because you just told it how it is. Yeah.

C

I love it.

A

There we go. You got to, you know, a lot of people that, you know, are suspicious of you.

C

I know.

A

And I was.

C

Yeah, fair enough.

A

Yeah.

C

Yeah.

A

But here we are.

C

Here we are. It's frustrating to me and it. It. So it makes me want to quit sometimes because it's like, it's like, fuck, like, what. What do you do? You know, like, it's a. The offense on a conspiracy about yourself is always going to beat the defense. Like, you can always say shit about me and whatever, and so I. I can always say you're wrong. You know, you're.

D

You're just wrong.

C

And I can point to the fact.

A

Facts.

C

But then you can always construct a new thing. And so, you know, it's like. Yeah, it's tough. I don't know.

A

That is a reality, is that people do want to quit. And that is the work of a very organized attempt sometimes. Sometimes. And we need to identify that and we need to bring it into the light. And you're not going to quit because you told me just now that you do have people that love you and support you about keep going.

C

And it feels, it feels like a mission that's higher than me. So that's why I, I. The part that wants to quit is like the ego that wants to remain intact.

A

Right.

C

And like, wants to stay out of the limelight.

A

Fight or flight. You want, you don't want to be in pain.

C

In pain. Yeah.

A

And like, part of life.

C

And you mentioned stuff around, you know, your, Your personal life being encroached on. I've had similar things.

A

Yes.

C

That freak me out. And I'm like.

D

And then.

C

So it's. It's funny to see that simultaneously, I know you face this as well. Well, you have that. You have, like, creepy shit happening in your personal life, and then simultaneously, you have people calling you a spook.

A

Right.

C

And it's like you're, you're be on both. You're being flanked. And I'm like, I'm not a fucking spook. And go the away and just let me, you know. And, and, and, yeah, and. And I'm sure you feel sympathetic to this as well. There's so much that you put out that they, they wouldn't even be into this if you hadn't had put the thing out.

A

That's.

C

So they're using your lexicon and all the stuff you bring out, they're taking that. But then they're throwing you in the garbage or whatever, and it's, like, off, like, you know.

A

So the thing is, it's not about you.

C

I know.

A

Not about me.

C

It's not.

A

And I've got tunnel vision. So I'm seeing you right now. I don't see nothing else. You got to do that. But I'm cracking one thing. I hope you find it useful later. Okay. Okay. Which is that you said something about defense, and you said something about, like, when you're getting all these attacks from every side and people make you want to quit, okay, Then they win. If you quit now, quit. If you find a beautiful girl and you want an island and just, like, go live over there, you don't need to be doing this. I know that about you. You don't need to be doing this. I don't need to be doing this. Right? But I can, so I will. So. So the one thing I want to correct you on is the best defense is to outpace, outmaneuver and outperform. Never look back unless you're reflecting. But your mom and dad and brothers and sisters and your friends will tell you if you're being a bitch and an idiot and help you self reflect. So they're better at it than you anyway, right? So you look forward, you keep going. If you want out at any time, make it your own choice. The best thing you do when you get attacked is don't look to forward back. Keep moving forward. Don't think about those attacks, don't let them in, don't penetrate them. They don't know you and they don't own you. You're independent. Fight. We need you.

C

I appreciate that. Well, thank you, Jeremy.

A

Love you buddy.

C

You too, man.

A

I am.

C

Oh, that was great. That was so cool.

D

If you've made it this far in the show, then I know you care care enough to hear about this. Our show, American Alchemy is growing super fast. It's bursting at the seams. We are looking for an amazing editor

C

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D

If you're an experienced YouTube editor, podcast editor, trailer editor, or documentary style editor, maybe you're even a traditional Hollywood editor and you're just really into our content and you want to work on some of the most mind bending stories in the world, we really want to hear from you. We're especially looking for people who are deep into the content and who have a real editorial eye. Someone who can dig through long and sometimes dense conversations, find the most powerful moments, build tension, create great hooks. Basically people who can turn these raw conversations into very high quality, almost cinematic episodes. Strong technical skills are a prerequisite, but especially for the documentaries we make make, we really need somebody with taste, who has strong instincts around pacing, music, sound design, story structure, you know all the things. And big bonus points if you're genuinely into UFOs, consciousness, frontier science, and big

C

questions about the nature of reality.

D

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A

Sat.