Jason Samosa

the message of the impending apocalypse has been with us for a long time but that grand vision hasn't arrived yet if you think the apocalypse is lingering ten years into the future there's all sorts of things you're not going to do or bother investigating yes so it really is a huge way that you can control the behavior of an entire

Jesse

planet jason somoza runs one of my favorite youtube channels on ufo's i think

Jason Samosa

one of the things people really struggle with is can we be engaging with this huge phenomenon whilst also human beings may have created technology that could imitate it there is an organization which was created initially in nineteen forty five it's called the world commerce corporation on the board donovan stevenson hambros dulles doing the legal council we've got papal aristocracy on the board as well but eventually it links to the bahamas with thomas townsend brown and that whole geographical location how

Jesse

does it link with the bahamas yeah

Jason Samosa

well resorts international you familiar with them no there's this paint company called the mary carter paint company which is then converted into this organization called resorts international it suddenly has a subsidiary which has a private intelligence network called intertel which is doing very dubious stuff you know who becomes the controller of resorts international in the mid eighties who donald trump no way you see this sort of conflation of the deep state issue and the underground criminal networks with the ufo

Jesse

issue shifting gears before both of us get whacked the royal prince of liechtenstein hans adam he believes jesus will show up on a flying saucer that would

Jason Samosa

be a great end to it all

Jesse

yeah i'm back

Jason Samosa

revelation is like it's a revelation new information is coming in so how we view the future i think is really important the lens through which we interpret this incredibly mysterious thing is going to be pretty decisive ignition sequence five how is this possible nothing too unusual about that

Jesse

their existence cannot

Jason Samosa

longer be deniable

Jesse

today's episode is sponsored by incogni after speaking with a ton of scientists and high up military personnel working on some of the most revolutionary ideas and sensitive programs of our time i've learned how seriously they all take their personal privacy these people aren't paranoid they're just operating in very sensitive areas and so they care deeply about what's searchable about them on the internet the average person has no idea how much of their information is already out there just sitting on the web incredibly sensitive information like phone numbers home addresses relatives names all sitting on sites you've never even heard of if you're not being proactive about protecting your online information it could easily fall into the wrong hand that's what got me using incogni they go after data brokers directly and get your information actually deleted not just buried and they keep following up until the removal is confirmed and you can see all of this cleanly on their user friendly dashboard the feature i personally find most useful is custom removals if you find your information sitting on some random third party website you simply paste the link into your incogni dashboard and their privacy experts handle the takedown you get unlimited submissions so take your personal data back now with incogni use code americanalchemy at incogni dot com americanalchemy for sixty percent off an annual plan thank you so much to incogni for sponsoring today's episode i'm here with jason somoza who runs one of my favorite youtube channels on ufo's you're incredible at explaining things at breaking things down really complicated kind of complex threads in ufology and also explaining to people i think where they get thrown off most when it comes to ufo's and it's a it's just an amazing channel you do all these historical deep dives and so i'm really grateful to have you man thanks jesse

Jason Samosa

it's good to be here here man

Jesse

i think people on the outside of ufology assume you know it's all just kind of you know little green men coming from zeta reticuli or something i think you have a much kind of deeper more complex understanding of the topic is that your kind of base case assumption that these are just extraterrestrial travelers

Jason Samosa

i think when it comes to that i tend to rest on jacques valet's work you know if you read messengers of deception he talks about how the extraterrestrial hypothesis doesn't make much sense we have so many cases of these things coming in and they land on our planet and they behave in unusual ways and after a while you begin to ask the question well what is it that they're trying to achieve right if they're coming here to do some sort of reconnaissance or some sort of investigation why have they continued to land over and over again and why are there so many different variations of them so the extraterrestrial hypothesis doesn't do justice to the data but i think one of the big issues there is most people when they see that they just throw it out they say well if i can't rationalize that data based on the hypothesis i think it should fit therefore i'm not going to take this topic seriously but in reality there are other layers you can go to then when you see all of these cases and that sort of strange what are they doing here you might be able to go a level deeper in terms of trying to understand it and i think that's where valet is is particularly helpful

Jesse

so what do you and what does jacques vallee think they are doing here

Jason Samosa

well i'm glad to be grouped together with valet i'll tell you what the two of us have discussed that's right i think jacques valet looks at those cases and says well what is the impact that ufo's are having on society okay so we're seeing a phenomenon and we're seeing the data of that becoming kind of indisputable however strange it might be it's possible that the objectives of that phenomenon may be something more subtle and so what he does is he looks at the cultural impact of ufo's over time and what impact does that have on human belief systems and therefore what can we assume the motivations might be of the beings that operate this thing and by the way it may well be and i think he said this recently in the the james fox thing that he did we may be engaging with an artificial intelligence which in turn has been created by a non human intelligence from another planet the current

Jesse

segmentation of the data hinders any serious research into what appears to be an

Jason Samosa

extraterrestrial phenomenon empowered by advanced artificial intelligence so it could be the case that there's sort of layers to this as well but what impact is this huge vast system having because obviously there's been a huge investment to create this thing which continually reappears and does all these things so what could the motivations be and i think that's the angle he

Jesse

goes down yeah so it's like humans and human belief systems are the end product they're not like some incidental result of another thing that's going on the intended effect is actually to create mythology

Jason Samosa

in some ways yeah exactly yeah and he talks about how symbols and mythology may exist at a level that's kind of a level down from our normal discourse and that those changes can be quite profound over time um so yes it could be that a slow shift in how we perceive ourselves and the world around us could be the intention

Jesse

yeah so then you have to view that mythology that gets created through kind of a suspicious hermeneutic you have to say okay you know if we start to talk about environmental destruction and nuclear war and all these things maybe taking those things at face value isn't the best idea i mean maybe they are to be taken at face value maybe these beings are coming from another planet and they're saying you're destroying yourself you're on the eve of the the apoll apocalypse or whatever and then and then maybe there's some intended effect that you know maybe that's they know that that narrative is charismatic and so they'll give it to to us but they're actually sort of you know messengers of deception

Jason Samosa

yes yeah exactly yeah yeah i think that's a big thing the the message of the impending apocalypse has been with us for a long time like if you read the old testament prophets so much of it is the doom and gloom of what's about to come and you know in many ways we experience that in some form throughout history but that grand vision hasn't arrived yet and it's it's this is one of the huge challenges and i think this is why this idea of deception is so important is how am i supposed to delineate between what this phenomenon is trying to generate in terms of our human culture and what we're trying to achieve potentially in response to it because when you get to this point where we're questioning whether or not our beliefs and our thoughts are our own you kind of collapse into this solipsism you know and it doesn't become very helpful so

Jesse

or radical cartesian doubt exactly yeah like

Jason Samosa

how am i supposed to figure out what i'm supposed to be thinking yes right it's a little bit too deep so i don't know what the answers are there in terms of what the phenomenon is trying to achieve but i think certainly the everything we encounter as an extraterrestrial being and every single experience should be taken at face value is maybe too simplistic an approach because on balance it appears to be very deceptive

Jesse

and yeah apocalyptic i believe there's a what's that it's like when prophecy fails was this like you know in the fifties there was this cult created in ohio and the cult creation seems to be this thing in ufology where like you have this one kind of contactee you know and around that person is created this sort of mythology and you end up with you know and often there's a prophecy involved and they're like you know something's going to happen in like the next few years or something do you think that is a kind of a core product of ufology and ufo contact whether you know going back to like you know adamski and people like that you know the you know the some of the early contactees in

Jason Samosa

the us yeah i mean whether it's the intention of the phenomenon or not to create those cults they do appear and you know this is one of these things where belief systems can spawn quite extreme outcomes because you know if a group of us are experiencing something that feels truly phenomenal and no one on the outside can even interact with that on an experiential level our ability to have coherent dialogue with the outside world completely collapses and so what happens is you get this little bubble of experience which just begins to go off on its own completely separate from the world so i think that does happen there is a part that valet talks about in messengers of deception where he talks about how if suddenly there was a mass appearance of ufo's in the world so let's say some sort of event those cults could suddenly blossom whilst trust in the government collapses and that's one of the fears that he's got he suggests that actually we need to be very aware that the current status quo of what's going on on the planet could suddenly change overnight in a mass appearance event and you know that could be very concerning yeah and i

Jesse

think it's concerning for governments as well like jolly west do you know who that is he was one of the architects of mk ultra and he was the head of ucla psychiatry out in la actually and you know now there are all these theories that he might have brainwashed charles manson really crazy but his whole thing was he he was really interested in cult creation and philip zimbardo at stanford with the stanford prison experiments like all so very similar a lot of this psychology that was probably state funded at the time it was extremely interested in the creation of cults because as you're saying those are kind of inherently subversive organizations and so yeah it's interesting to think of ufology through that through that lens yeah yeah absolutely yeah yeah and some of these cults are seem to be very apocalyptic that seems to be like a part of their their whole thing like you know that the end times are here we're living in the you know we're you know it's the book of revelations or

Jason Samosa

something and interesting how that's kind of gone beyond just cults now into our mainstream stream as well right you know we've moved to a point where this idea of the apocalypse it's kind of just part of how we see the world you know is that a progression from the cults or the phenomenon over time this it creates a sense of desperation and urgency around people which could be manipulated you know yeah yeah i like to say if you know that your mom's about to cook dinner if she tells you that dinner's gonna be ready in one hour you're much less likely to go to the fridge right right sure so if you think the apocalypse is lingering i don't know ten years into the future there's all sorts of things you're not going to do or bother investigating yes so it really is a huge way that you can control the behavior of an entire planet is if they all become convinced that we're pretty much at the end of things or even if that's lingering in

Jesse

the subconscious yeah it could be totally used as a way to kind of pacify people what do you think i guess because a lot of what you cover also are these kind of analytical overlays imposed on the ufo question by you know various groups and so one would be the extraterrestrial thing another thing would be angels and demons and the whole you know kind of judeo christian overlay you want to talk a little

Jason Samosa

bit about that yeah i think this is super important a lot of people are trying to grapple with what the phenomenon is and so we go from the extraterrestrial hypothesis and we begin to see it doesn't make a lot of sense of what we're seeing but you can move over and you can start to consider it to be demonic right and there is a correlation between occult activity and the phenomenon that's demonstrable and you know valets demonstrated that and peter lavender there are so many examples of this so it is compelling to ask the question maybe the extraterrestrial the demon the angel all of these different things are sort of a consistent experience of the same phenomenon underneath and i think that that's very compelling what can happen there is you can quickly begin to move over and say well wait a second the bible said a whole bunch of really interesting things about these beings you know for example that there are these fallen angels that become these demons and that they're deceptive and that there's this huge end times deception which is designed to trick humanity into moving away from god and starting to believe some sort of false doctrine and a lot of people look at the phenomenon they say it's not extraterrestrial and it is deceptive and and it correlates with the occult and so what happens is very quickly we snap into this idea that this could be validating the bible there's a problem here which is kind of circular reasoning you're using this sort of i think relatively useful interpretation of the phenomenon to go back to the bible and say wait a minute maybe we should give this book a second look but actually underneath there you're also using the bible to create the argument in the first place and so a lot of this comes down to whether or not we take the bible to be a source of authority on how we interpret things or whether or not we actually focus on the science of the phenomenon and i think it's interesting to look through the community i mean i recently made a video on the collins elite right where i explored this topic in depth and i was trying my best to steel man the argument that ufo's could be demons because i thought it was interesting and it's good to build that picture inadvertently in the comments there's so many people saying i knew the bible was right all of this stuff and i'm just like no that's not what i was trying to say but so quickly people get funneled down there and it can lead to quite extreme outcomes because the moment the bible becomes your epistemological foundation your ability to look at all the other data shuts down and i think it's a big issue that we have to grapple with as things accelerate who are the collins elite gosh i wish i could tell you with complete confidence who they are you know one of the interesting things i've learned is that i think people on the inside talk about the collins elite they've been talking about them for a while whether it's you know jacques valet or george knapp or whoever when they use that word i think they're often referring to multiple things things so first and foremost you've got this fantastic book by nick redfer and final events where he talks about this program called we don't know the real name but it's known as the collins elite it was founded in well it traces back to right after the roswell crash they're trying to understand what this phenomenon is and if you read rupelt's book on you know the unexplained stuff that was going on then he talks through how they go through all these hypotheses it's like is it human could it be russian could it somehow be nazi technology and then there's this extraterrestrial hypothesis what this collins elite thing reveals is there was also a conversation about whether it could be overlaid with the occult what was being experienced so that eventually leads to a funded program according to nick redfern's sources and he met with a bunch of people who validated other sources he had and that was nineteen fifty two through the directorate of plans in the cia i think they unlocked funding and basically about twelve people were employed to look into this full time so you have a funded program which i don't think special access programs were a thing then by that terminology but it sounds like that because directorate of plans funding is associated with mockingbird gladio all these like really covert operations so you've got that program investigating the correlation between ufo's and the occult you've also got other components so if you read valet's journals he points out alonzo mcdonald as being uniquely involved in this and i'm looking at alonzo mcdonald who i know you had your discussion with the two erics recently right where he came up alonzo mcdonald was the staff director for jimmy carton and if you look at him he was i think he was ceo of mckinsey right consulting firm so i'm like alonso macdonald isn't going to be invited into a very very sensitive program exploring the relationship between ufo's and the occult could be completely wrong but it just doesn't seem like that would be the case so i began to look into that and ask the question well what's going on and if you look into this organization called the family the fellowship they were founded in the thirties and really took off in the post war era they basically created this invisible network of sort of protestant christians throughout government and there's a wonderful book by a guy called jeff charlotte or charlotte it's a brilliant book where he basically explores this and identifies key members of the family alonzo mcdonald is one of them that network has many people who've been involved in sort of ufo adjacent stuff so when you go into the reagan administration you've got james baker who's then his staff director james baker is also a member of the family so you know the democrats lose the republicans win but you have a consistent presence of the family right at the nexus of power in the executive branch and james baker is also a member of the family and he's involved in a ufo breach briefing according to nick redfern so he's invited into a briefing that reagan gets where a bunch of people come in one's from cia st which is presumably kit green and his people you got the collins elite who come in and then there's another group who do a briefing as well alonzo mcdonald james baker both sat in or had you know direct information about the ufo topic within the context of the white house so it raises the question this network of people how big is it and what do they know and sometimes if someone is trying to shut down activity in the government related to ufo investigations because they claim that it's demonic and you shouldn't be looking into this don't just assume that it's that nineteen fifty two program which has become known as the collins elite it may well be that it's the family which also sometimes i think fly under the same moniker and those are just two components out of three so just to

Jesse

get us started yeah it's fascinating yeah this guy doug ko was one of the leaders of the family in the eighties and he would hold this prayer breakfast and all of the presidents would have to attend the prayer breakfast and you know it almost felt like at the prayer breakfast doug had more status than the presidents or something so it's super fascinating it's funny when i hear you know people talking about aliens as angels or demons i have like two reactions one is you know if sometimes you'll hear like you know sean ryan and tucker carlson and like we think it's spiritual we think it's demonic and then i say well what does that mean what are you like you're just saying you're just saying an angel or a demon what is an angel or a demon like you do have these you know angel hierarchies and taxonomies from saint thomas aquinas and you know people historically but that doesn't that just has like a big you know kind of a lot of baggage attached to it has a connotation attached to it but what does that actually mean would be my kind of challenge to those people and then i would have a kind of equal and opposite challenge to the people who say that angels and demons definitely have nothing to do with the conversation yes and the challenge there would be like there's probably something you know the concept lindy like which is you know how long an idea has survived is basically its kind of value to society and it's also determines its expected future age and so plato and the bible are probably more valuable than like i don't know the pet shop boys or something you know some like random contemporary thing that's just not that old and so you know you're seeing a thing you know angels and demons have existed for thousands of years you know they are these sort of you know they play tricks on you or whatever and they smell like sulfur like there are all these different like attributes of them and some of the attributes seem to match up with some of these things like you talk to jacques vallee he'll be like yeah like you you want to get rid of this thing if you know you if you're you know a constant experience or an abductee or whatever and he often talks about fallen angels himself yeah so i think there's this kind of two pronged like wait like you can't just end the conversation on angels and demons for those people and then they're like the you know super secular people who just want to like entirely throw that out and i'm like wait that seems like an important possible overlay yeah i think the

Jason Samosa

key thing here is you know we need to look at all the experiences from history the moment you realize this phenomenon's real the next question is how long has it been going on yeah and then it turns out our entire history all our mythology is mentioning references to these beings we need to take it seriously from all religions right from all of these documented experiences the pitfall comes when we cease to look at these experiences as like okay these people believed this they had this experience they documented it we can take it relatively seriously to these sixty six books describe exactly what's going to happen in the future and none of the other holy texts out there do yeah and that's the lockdown where you either remain open to the data or you get locked in and i think one of the issues we have is terminology unfortunately angels demons these are i guess the judeo christian thing is out of fashion now but they're judeo christian terms and it may well be helpful for us to consider whether we try and rename those

Jesse

well i think it would be fascinating to somehow find some common joseph campbell style underpinning between the religions where there's always some consciousness chain between man and god yes and so you have the dev you know in hinduism you have you know the jinn in islam like it's almost the exception to the rule to find a religion where there isn't consciousness between man and god and so what normalizes between you know the descriptions of all of these beings across all these religions i think would be a

Jason Samosa

worthy inquiry one hundred percent yeah you could even just go back to angel evangelion which is just messenger right and that function of a messenger going out from this place to human beings with a message is exactly what what these these phenomenon tend to try and represent anyway so there's useful terms you can connect very quickly with the challenge we have is the moment you start to use those christian terms again people's ability to think clearly just switches off yeah all people but you know it can

Jesse

happen well then you could just say it's like it's it's these things are mythologies and christianity is is a mythology just like some of these other mythologies and and then and then christian but then christianity for whatever reason seems to have this you know charismatic very helpful effect for like more people like it's scaled better than a lot of these other things and then you have to ask why and i don't know and

Jason Samosa

you know this is so interesting i remember when i was losing my faith and i had to go and answer questions to the people who'd been teaching me about the world of christianity yeah

Jesse

because let's back up for a sec because you have a very interesting just origin story do you want to tell that to people and then get into

Jason Samosa

this it's a great day for me i finally have an origin story i feel amazing yeah i mean i became a christian at the age of nineteen kind of out of nowhere i mean all the people who knew me growing up would never have imagined it would have happened but it began to fall in place for a variety of personal reasons you know the way i was seeing the world was this is a very dark place where there's a lot of problems kind of like an eschatological stage for the bible to step onto you know i began to see the world that way and i was looking for spirituality and unfortunately i looked at you know various other pathways you know sort of buddhist and eastern spirituality is pretty cool for someone of my age at that point and i looked down those avenues and unfortunately every time i did there was always a price associated with you know learning that information so it kind of turned me off but it doesn't mean that those things don't have value it's just in that moment but eventually i became quite despondent i prayed i said you know look whoever you are mysterious cosmic force help me because i can't seem to find the truth two weeks later i watch a video about the bible and you know despite wanting to treat it with scorn i found myself enlightened by it very much like you're saying right there's this charismatic effect that comes out of the bible and it is incredibly beautiful and particularly the sermon on the mount you know i read that and i found some of the things that jesus was saying were so profound and it's not even like the word profound makes it sound like i discovered some esoteric mystery what was so wonderful about it is it was actually just common sense in terms of how you view people and their behavior and you know what does it really mean to be good or to be evil he sort of cuts through the conversation in a fresh way and all the eschatological stuff that came with it about this deception the end times because of the way i was thinking at the time i was like that makes sense this seems beautiful i met christians who are wonderful people and i snapped in you know after a while you stop trying to rationalize whether you are going to believe and you start getting on with it and as i did i found it to be a you know an amazing experience i was so invested in it i was training to become a preacher for for many years and that was going full throttle until i was about to go and get full theological training and for a church like the one i was in the money involved in that is it's a lot of money and a very wise man called viv witten i can see him in my mind's eye he was a wonderful guy and he said you know you should actually just pause here take a year go get a normal job i'm twenty five all i've ever done at this point is like be in this environment every single day of my life constantly so i went and got a job in a call center which is a real shock to the system it really was i was up in one of the most deprived towns in england in this call center meeting the most wonderful people but i just spent three years studying theology philosophy and being in a christian bubble it was really weird and i just began to lose began to lose the grip of what i what i thought i'd believed and i spent a lot of time digging in and trying to figure out can i really prove this to be true you know i believe jesus rose from the dead but i'm beginning to doubt that how do i prove that because i need a bedrock here an epistemological foundation so that next time these doubts come i can just deal with them because it was pretty shocking suddenly wondering whether i was going to continue my whole life was in this space and eventually no matter how far i went in terms of proving the genuine historicity of large chunks of the bible knowing the incredible moral value it brought to my life i couldn't prove that i was in communication with god that the bible was literally inspired by god or that jesus had risen from the dead i believe there's a mystery there about what happened with jesus i think he was a astonishing individual and that kind of gets back to what i was going to say a moment ago which is that i realized of all the millions of amazing pieces of literature that have been written in our in our human history surely one of them's got to be the best and you know it may well be that at the very top of that stack you've got you know the platos and the gospels and you know these books that just you know you you read the original dialogues with socrates you get a somewhat similar feeling that you get from some of the gospels when he talks about how wisdom starts with recognizing that you know nothing you know that's there's something there you can see some of it in confucius you can see it in the gospels it's all kind of popping up at the same time in human history and it's all beautiful and impactful so i kind of reached a point where that was that and later on entering ufo world i found all of that to be very useful background but now especially as things are accelerating with the discussion you know people are talking about ufo's more than they ever have i don't know if you know this but the ufo subreddit in twenty seventeen when the new york times article came out it had seventy thousand people on it after that article now it's twenty twenty six there are four million people on that subreddit whoa it's wild okay so i always say to people it doesn't matter whether you believe this stuff or not there's a wave coming of people having to engage with this because it's kind of like the cult thing right there's a subculture bubbling up here and people are beginning to engage with it and they don't have the answers or clarity they need we do have these old religious frameworks and what if we end up using those and kind of trapping ourselves in a framework about how we view it instead of letting us see whatever this unbelievable thing is yeah but then the

Jesse

meta view also is like if you have this almost like social contagion around the thing you almost have to be skeptical of that as well exactly and like realize that quote unquote disclosure is just a personal process it's just something that an individual goes through themselves it's not some line in the sand like it's actually some sort of seeding of one's own spiritual authority to some other group to say that they can give you a bunch of documents and then that you know that that somehow provides meaning for you like what is it who cares and on some level like you know i want it to happen because i think you know it'll move the overton window and you know you'll have young people able to ask these questions you know these things can be taught in academic settings all of those things would be amazing second order effects of trump releasing documents but the idea that that's somehow going to like give you know somebody meaning in their life is insane yeah and that's sort of like some people's orientation towards the thing

Jason Samosa

yeah one hundred percent yeah there's this fixation on the information we don't have and the injustice that we haven't received it so we become convinced that as long as i can get that information out everything's going to be solved it's

Jesse

so funny and it's so funny to see like like some government official who's clearly doesn't even think about ufo's will make some offhand remark about some you know a hybrid breeding program or like a certain base where they saw a thing and you'll see somebody on twitter and they're like is this disclosed did we just get it it's like are you following sports like what are you doing like who cares yeah that person doesn't know anything they're doing the thing because of their own cynical you know motivation they want to distract from a thing or they it's opportunistic or whatever so just you know again i think there are second order kind of knock on effects that are positive yeah and so maybe you should view it through that lens but if you're like really pumped about it personally like maybe you should think twice or something you know it's like what who cares yeah it

Jason Samosa

brings me back to tom delonge when he met neil mccasland and after that initial phone call i think neil mccasland had said you know i'm worried that you might find a group of people stumbling around an elephant right sort of feeling out like i think it's blind

Jesse

men touching different parts of an elephant

Jason Samosa

exactly yeah they think it's all different things because no one even has the full picture yeah so it might well be that even if we got full disclosure we're going to be deeply unsatisfied with the information that we receive yeah

Jesse

i think that's right and yeah exactly there's nothing to disclose because the government they might have an asymmetric data set but they don't have some you know monopoly on you know how the world works that's just or metaphysics or something you just mentioned two very interesting names that we should give you know maybe a broader audience who's not mired in ufo world a little context on neil mccasland is a general who ran the lab where the roswell wreckage was rumored to have been taken at wright patterson and he ran the air force research laboratory and then tom delonge is the blink one hundred and eighty two frontman

Jason Samosa

who would have thought those two things

Jesse

would go together how did they come together give us the context oh man

Jason Samosa

yeah this is the whole story that that got me like into this in a big way because it sounds preposterous and every time i try and you know recently one of my best friends he's getting into this topic and he's like i've got this long drive coming up can you suggest some podcasts and i was like you gotta listen to the tom delonge thing and he's you know i can tell in his mind he's like what are you on about seriously but the story is is kind of unbelievable i mean essentially delonge i think had become deeply interested in this from a very young age there's there's video footage of him talking about this you know you're kind of wondering if he's even started blink one hundred eighty two at this point so he was fascinated and at some point in twenty thirteen he started to build this kind of project about how he would integrate music media and try and use it to communicate bigger stuff i think it's a natural consequence of being in a band for so long and wanting to find a meaning and being interested in a topic at some point he began to make connections and meet people you know and i think that actually happened relatively early neil mccasland and and the people that come later that's twenty fifteen twenty sixteen but peter lavender who was someone who worked closely with delong he said by the time he joined which was november twenty fourteen there were already ten advisors so delong already had accumulated a group of people who were advising him on stuff anyway before this group of people that we tend to focus on how it happened it's a question of whether you believe the stories that came out about it or not but valet jacques valet validates the original story which is that delonge had made contact with someone who worked at lockheed martin skunk works and that individual had said look would you come and sort of be the emcee for this special day we're having where it's like a big family event and he said yes as long as i can speak to the individual who runs the show right and get a chance to sit down and i think delon i come from a sales background as well as a religious one which arguably could be said to be the same thing but he's one of the best salespeople you'll ever come across because what he did is he took his unbelievable fascination in the ufo topic and he clearly had asked the question what is it that these people really want right delon could have gone in there and said i want the answers and become adversarial and tried to squeeze it out but i think he was very aware that not all people who work in the government are fundamentally evil there are lots of people who are mums and dads who find themselves working for these aerospace companies who may be dealing with really complicated stuff and are busy trying to achieve those objectives and meanwhile people's perception of them is plummeting because they're unable to communicate clearly about what's going on i think that's a real situation so he went in there and basically said look how can we help communicate things in a way that doesn't touch on classified data helps people understand some of the big concepts around this stuff and i think they were uneasy at first but then he sent this individual a piece of content that the vendor had written and it was all around cargo cults and the idea being that there were these gosh i didn't even know geographically where this happened but there was some sort of

Jesse

tribe and remote area french polynesia french

Jason Samosa

polynesia there you go and they could see these planes landing and you know dropping off all this cargo and like stuff food resources and there was this kind of you know flight tower and all of these lights and everything and in their mind their response was like if we can replicate what we're seeing so we make the tower out of trees and you know put these lights here maybe we'll also get the thing to land and that happened that's documented which is hugely interesting in terms of you know how we perceive many things that were constructed a long time ago and how we might perceive the origins of our various religious establishments so that suddenly got these people interested they were like oh you have a much more sophisticated view on this than the government's hiding aliens you're trying to understand the history of human engagement with potentially a phenomena which has been here for a long time a bunch of meetings start so he's flown out to the pentagon where he meets with someone and they say okay now you're going to nasa where he meets with some people i think arguably you could say maybe pete warden who's a one star nasa general may have been there and there's someone else as well who i forget their name but then eventually it leads out towards this area sort of california he's meeting with i think general mike carey was one of the individuals who eventually introduced him to general william neil mccasland so by this point he's accrued multiple advisors what happens is at this time he's giving all these podcasts and the first time i heard these podcasts i was like there's no way this could be true he was saying i have met the people who are managing the ufo thing they've started to speak to me the front man from blink one hundred eighty two and they're telling me all of these things okay and you can tell he's really excited but he's also a little bit nervous and it's really interesting because it's one of these things where you listen to it and on paper it doesn't make any sense no rational person would believe that can happen but his enthusiasm was really hard to ignore there's an intuition you can have listening to someone where you think well maybe you're just deluded but you definitely believe this anyway fast forward to the twenty sixteen elections and if you look back at it now and i've documented this as thoroughly as i can podesta and clinton were talking a lot about ufo's and people say like you know oh they were just talking about it because they were trying to get votes and it's like are you kidding me there's a guy called dennis kucinich who was in a twenty ten election i think the moment his name became associated with ufo's this was a former democratic candidate for the presidency in a debate stage he was pretty much laughed off stage and his candidacy plummeted okay so it had been proven in democratic circles associating yourself with the ufo topic is is not a good thing so clinton and podesta are talking about ufo's which is very strange podesta's emails get hacked obviously and in those emails you find a correspondence i think there were thirty five emails back and forth between tom delonge and podesta's team there's that meeting where you've got general neil mccasland and michael carey and robert weiss the president of the skunk works along with podesta and delonge and podesta is clinton's chief of staff that's right yeah so he's running that and you know along with that there's a really interesting moment in the emails where one of the staffers this is also interesting because the staffers seem to understand there's a ufo conversation going on a lot of these people are connected to the center for american progress which is podesta's sort of big liberal think tank in dc and at one point there's an individual mentioned and one of the staffers said john maybe we should consider this individual for the ufo project and you're like okay so obviously this staffer and all the other people on the email including podesta and this is mid twenty fifteen i think already have a ufo project we're like far away from the election at this point and anyway it turns out tom delonge's been in there connecting with podesta with all these people and these conversations really were going on which was then further validated by jacques ballet someone who has huge questions about that whole thing by the way he's a big skepticism about what they were trying to achieve you read his journals it absolutely did happen yeah what do you think

Jesse

they were trying to achieve because i think the for me i know there's a there there underneath the ufo question like i know there's something worthy of inquiry scientifically there and then i think the meta sociological question that a lot of people who are mired in ufo's right now don't don't tend to ask is why have we seen this just ridiculous resurgence in popularity why is the subreddit of ufo's grown from a few hundred thousand to you know four million over the course of ten years and is that being pushed is there some sort of engineered on high ufo disclosure thing happening right now and and and what would be the motivation for that because you said you know you're like it could this guy be the guy for the ufo project and by the way i have personally very little doubt of tom delong's sincerity and his intelligence and actually long interest and standing interest in organically in the topic and i think he kind of vigilante like you know made a lot of this stuff happen but it also seems like there was a confluence between that organic interest on his part and then like people in the government wanting to do something on ufo's do you think that was just this stuff has been you know we've had this low energy cold war orientation towards this thing we've kept it secret for too long people deserve to know or do you think it was a little more cynical than that do you have a take there yeah i

Jason Samosa

do yeah i really do i i think in terms of the timing jacques vallee's most recent journals are very interesting i you know i was digging into delong as my first foyer into this topic in a serious way because i was like if i can prove that this is legitimate then i can you know sit on top of this and say there seems to be a there there and i'd always been trying to figure out when did the thing really start where did this come from you get to valet's most recent journals he documents early in twenty thirteen rumors coming out of the white house and these rumors are essentially saying they're planning to do something called confirmation not disclosure okay so there's some sort of distinction there in terms of like we're not going to go all the way with trying to reveal all the awful things but we want to get some information out there and you know what's interesting about the timing of that is simultaneously as these rumors start to appear in the journals valet and his colleagues are talking about this idea that there might be something coming that there's something on its way and that it could potentially be concerning or harmful there's this urgency and these are the orsap scientists by the way so these were people who worked in the government on a big program that was funded through dia using bigelow aerospace investigating the phenomenon and the allsat program looked at two hundred sixty thousand different cases with seven levels of analysis just probably the biggest study of ufo data ever and one of the conclusions that valet hints at two or three times in the journals is that an existential threat may have been detected and what that is he doesn't go any deeper into it i don't know if it's because he doesn't want to or he can't and it doesn't mean we have to believe that by the way but you know it's very interesting that valet who is i think generally quite skeptical about you know the modern disclosure movement which has involved claims that something's coming releases his journals in a way that validates this and he would have had time to remove that if he if he changed his mind about you know all of that so in terms of that i think there is some urgency whatever that is okay i don't know what i made a whole video about like twenty different explanations it could be but then that then leads to the obama administration basically saying look we need to try and get information out in some degree i think those two things could be connected but i think delong was already in the orbit of those conversations because he'd been on coast to coast with george knapp twenty eleven and he's one of the biggest celebrities they'd had on there who was talking about doing things for disclosure he's in that orbit the orsap scientists received these rumors about stuff coming out of the white house and then you've got george knapp who's in that orbit who's connected to delong i don't think it's out of the question he may have heard like now's a pretty good time for the project you're doing like twenty thirteen kind of time so i think there's a genuine reason there's all of this with delong maybe already knowing and that driving him to be quite so as ambitious as he was but i also think there's another dynamic here which funnily enough connects back to the collins elite thing which is that you know there have been presidents who have been on the inside of the ufo information at least it seems that way the research i've done recently nixon carter reagan bush all seem to have received briefings the moment you get to clinton i think it's pretty demonstrable he didn't and he had to fight to try and get information and he used all of his resources and still couldn't get what he wanted and you know i wonder whether obama may have had a somewhat similar experience i don't know but you know ross coulthardt recently came out and talked about how there sometimes seems to be a contrast between republican presidents getting information and democrat presidents not you don't have to take everything ross coulthardt says as gospel right but it's an interesting thought experiment why might that be the case why is it that the ufo data may be dangerous in the hands of people who are outsiders okay so clinton and obama coming into office really weren't connected to the establishments of the united states they really were in many ways outsiders who'd started to move inside you know clinton attended a bilderberg meeting once before he was elected so that's fine but that's very different to reagan to nixon and to all of these the

Jesse

bush family i don't know i would i think of nixon as kind of an outsider really yeah from whittier california oh he had a chip on his shoulder was wanted as to do force reduction in the cia who was always against him and was ousted i think in a very artificial way oh that's interesting okay reagan i could see a little bit more george hw bush for sure insider no doubt about that the clinton thing's really interesting because he was interested in ufo's i believe and i think he spoke with ron pandolfi who is we gotta talk a very interesting guy who is i think head of the cia's weird desk and ron pandolfi told clinton he should get briefed by a guy named bruce maccabee who had written about a book about ufo's and the fbi was a longtime civilian researcher and so it's interesting about that dynamic is you're getting a guy in the open source world to brief a president on ufo's which is very strange yeah

Jason Samosa

it is very strange yeah that's one of the most i mean it was one of the reasons i ended up looking into pandolphia in a big way was i was mystified by the president of the united states is trying to get ufo information and i mean if you really look at the clinton story he really is yeah like he uses all of his different people every angle to go and investigate this and lawrence

Jesse

rockefeller is very close with the clintons and trying to get them to do disclosure get them more interested constantly and

Jason Samosa

yeah that was a thing huge initiative there and most people don't even realize that this is like history you know it's documented there's a photo of of

Jesse

hillary clinton and i think she's at camp david and she's holding a book and it's a book by university of arizona physicist paul davies and the book is titled are we alone yeah she's clearly exploring this stuff yeah she was

Jason Samosa

interested early i think and there's evidence during the original clinton administration she might have been trying to open doors as well but in terms of the pandolfi thing essentially clinton's science advisor is trying to get a briefing and what happens is that goes to the place in the cia where there is ufo information it's called the weird desk it's a colloquial term for a function which has moved around many times and at that point a guy called doctor ronald pandolfi was was running the weird desk and so bruce maccabee relays the story like you said he's this navy physicist incredibly bright guy who's obviously done phenomenal research and he gets a call from pandolfi basically saying look i need you to go in and give give the lecture you gave to the cia once i want you to give it to the science advisor and he's like well i need time to prepare and make sure i've got all this and he's like thinking maybe i've got two weeks to get everything together he's like it's tomorrow eight in the morning and so clinton's science advisor doesn't even get the cia guy on ufo's to come in he sends not even one of his like lower people a civilian researcher in with almost no time to prepare and there's a guy called william nepal who i think had closer interactions with pandolfi at this time and he suggested that you know really they just wanted to push this away they didn't want to have to confront what was going on with clinton to me i see a pattern there which is the former few administrations had been actually stuffed full of quite religious people some of these collins elite types figures we talked about the family there's also the knights of malta and they're connected to a broader establishment that goes back to the oss the office of strategic services is in world war two there's a thread through all of those administrations of a similar milieu of people you got clinton comes in he's just this this guy you know and he wants the information and it's shut down by doctor pandolfi who by the way his uncle louis pandolfi was a founding member of the oss really well according to jack sarfatti so you know take take the information as you please but there's an interview with danny jones where he kind of goes off on talking about pandolfi in detail and that was yeah it's very interesting so anyway that that fascinated me because if there's an individual who can basically say no to the president who is he and you know he appears everywhere in ufo law and he's he's an interesting guy

Jesse

it's fascinating yeah and then you have obama and who knows to what extent obama was actually briefed on the subject but he seems interested i mean he's producing this betty and barney hill documentary he you know it seems like a slow dripping out information about ufo's and testing the waters where i think on james corden he goes there are things in our sky that you know we can't identify and we don't know what they are and then you know in this recent podcast he sort of provoked trump in many ways and said you know it's not like they're you know aliens are real but like how do you know that sir you know the interviewer never followed up on that but he said they are real which again i don't know what he's going off of there and then he goes on to talk about you know area fifty one and how that you know that's a myth the idea that we have them like you know chained up in the basement or whatever it was so

Jason Samosa

interesting about that is clinton said exactly the same thing what a weird thing to zero in on they both said yeah there's nothing underground under area fifty one it's like if i'm asked about ufo's there's a thousand things i could mention in the thirty second snippet i'm going to give you why thou doth

Jesse

protest too much yeah it's a little strange and then afterwards it was so clearly this litmus test it was like this like let's see how the public reacts because he then walked it back and was like you know really you know i don't i don't know anything you don't know you know i just think that it was like you know some fermi paradox thing given the amount of you know solar systems you know there's the likelihood or whatever general and that to me spells the fact that like he phrased it the way he did deliberately to begin with the whole thing was staged with this very friendly you know very left wing interviewer who loved obama so and it was this rapid fire questioning thing and the guy just like moved on after that all

Jason Samosa

those questions are always planned they totally

Jesse

yeah yeah so like what and then by the way obama's cia director you know brennan and his director of national intelligence james clapper are showing up in a movie and they are tacitly endorsing the idea that not only have we you know are ufo's real yeah but we've had tracking programs at area fifty one which james clapper personally talked about helped set up and then are tacitly endorsing the idea that we've had a legacy program doing crash retrieval operations and you know reverse engineering for decades multi generational yeah so yeah do you think maybe obama knows a thing or two

Jason Samosa

about this whole thing did you see the john greenwald thing where he filed a foia and he got information back which indicated i can't remember if it's three thousand or thirty i think it might have been thirty thousand references in obama's documents in his presidency to like ufo's uap orap a tip etc like all those things so you know if you count that in a video i did i i tried to figure out how many references you'd need every day of his administration to make that number i mean it seems as though there was a dialogue going on based on those figures and then you also have podesta and clinton working in the administration at different points and then like valet says whispers coming out of the white house so what we see with hillary clinton and john podesta in twenty sixteen their weird behavior absolutely must track back to his oval office and his administration

Jesse

this brings up some really important questions around what exists as far as ufo programs because the things that are talked about openly at this point are in that twenty seventeen new york times article they're what obama was you know talking about and investigating it's what harry reid set up from two thousand seven to twenty twelve this os app program which then turned into sort of this a tip overhang program which seemed a lot slimmer unclear what was going on there but those those are discussed constantly as like we have real ufo programs you know kona blue and this idea that we were transferring assets between lockheed martin who had add ufo material to bigelow aerospace but the budgets associated with these programs are on the order of you know it's twenty we're talking about twenty two million dollars a single f thirty five fighter jet is eighty five million dollars a b two stealth bomber is over a billion dollars a single b two stealth bomber so you're telling me that we have you know hulls of a craft that we can fly could go warp speed maybe we can even you know drop payloads with these things which is so dystopian to even think about but like if you're thinking with a military industrial complex hat on you have to think that and you're put you're putting twenty two million dollars against that the reverse engineering of that makes zero sense so then you have this idea of like what david grush may or may not have bumped into this like this legacy program this like you know probably hundreds of billions if not trillions of dollars going into actually reverse engineering this stuff and then what's so weird is like the you know you do have people coming out here and there saying i saw a thing and i think but you only have one bob lazar a guy who actually you know at s four in nineteen eighty nine said he worked on the craft itself so you have this like perfectly locked down program that somehow has absurd you know budget you know line items attached to it and 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deserve with chubbies support our show use our code and tell them we sent you thank you so much to chubby's for sponsoring today's episode do you have a base case of what is going on inside the government here oh

Jason Samosa

my god no i have no idea yeah no i mean it's a total mystery what's really going on there's so much disinformation as well which makes it impossible to navigate all of this so once you get beyond the data that you can see that you've just listed i mean what can you say i think it's there are plenty of people who've come out and said that we have craft it seems to be just sinking into our collective consciousness at this point that we've got some things and we've been trying to figure out what they are but we haven't necessarily got that far some people say that we have that's about as far as we get you know before the information starts to run dry so i i i i'm definitely convinced there's something there definitely but in terms of things i could be high confidence about they're very limited

Jesse

yeah i feel the same way i i have you know you know my editor's here with me and we both went to aztec new mexico to investigate the crash there awesome and i can't speak for him but i came out you know kind of skeptical i came in skeptical and i came out pretty sure that there was a crash there because i really for a long time being into ufo stuff i thought you know there was a conflation maybe going on between kind of some anti gravity lineage of you know some exotic propulsion that maybe was created in nazi germany or you know maybe world war two and then you know you develop it or whatever and then you conflate it with these alien things and like and maybe that is going on i don't know but you know i wasn't sure about the crashes and i wasn't sure about a reverse engineering you know program and after investigating a few of these crashes i think the crashes are just real and then and then so if the crashes were then you know if if there's us air force and cia involvement which like there always seems to be as in the case of argenia even in braz then like there has to be reverse engineering going on of those pieces of course and then the weird thing is you have jim lakatsky coming out you know who is this dia rocket scientist involved in os app and he's now writing about this stuff and he writes about it like it's some platonic puzzle like it's more of like a mystical object than it is something you'd ever even put through physicists against and you have the idea you know eric davis saying there were no physicists on the program so maybe like like the idea that there are crash retrievals which is you know at this point that that's like sort of passe in these sort of circle i mean age of disclosure discussing this stuff openly so then you have to ask like what is the underlying thing if if that's the tip of the iceberg the underlying thing has to be much weirder than that and so i i get into like okay maybe these are like mystical maybe these are objects that are far stranger than like physics and engineering could ever you know explained but i don't i don't know do you think

Jason Samosa

that they're part of a large system like like maybe the majority of what we interact with is part of a single system which is kind of artificial

Jesse

intelligence i don't know but i guess yeah i'm sympathetic to ideas like that that were in some sort of control system or something and these might be von neumann replicator envoys or something of some like like larger intelligence so they're they are just like the tip of the spear and even gray aliens which seem to have this very robotic droid like kind of mandate where they show up and they do not fear do not fear then they insert the thing and they kind of subdue you or whatever like all of that feels somewhat automated yeah and if there are crashes you say oh why are they so why would they fly from light years away just to crash or whatever they're so advanced well maybe this is just their earth homeostasis kit and maybe they're you know kind of disposable so i i am sympathetic to ideas like that but then we even the valet stuff as much i think he's this like an incredible godfather and he shifts your perspective in this super healthy way but he's so limited he's so limited i mean it's like what does that mean ai system ai control system it uses intermittent reinforcement maybe because that was the the in vogue psychology at the time who the knows who knows i don't know yeah what do you think well

Jason Samosa

i mean i think at the very least we should focus there because he two hundred sixty thousand cases like i said the capella database that he made and the levels of analysis that he did yeah you're right i mean what he's what he's sharing is very limited i wonder what else is under there and we should be focusing our attention there like the fact that this database exists with that level of analysis and we're all out here the other day anna paulina luna who's done phenomenal stuff for this progress of this conversation you know she tweeted out read the book of enoch and i'm thinking i'm just like no this isn't where we need to start we've got to start with the data and what it says and the book of enoch should be one of the cases in the database not not how we interpret it so i i do think even though what he's saying may be somewhat cryptic our focus should be on that huge source of data and what's under there and maybe some of it is very woo maybe there's some consistency to the woo maybe maybe the woo is constantly a reflection of who are and the consciousness that we bring to it which is another thing that valet talks about actually is this idea that the ufo isn't designed to carry beings from place a to place b but it's designed to interface with our mind and to take the imagery we have in here and to kind of like a dream right you know you see everything throughout your day you have these experiences you go to sleep and you mix the experience you just had with your deep subconscious thought into this whole new thing thing that function exists and billions of people use it every single night what if the ufo does that and so when we interact with it we're engaging with the weird robotic beings and this system which kind of seems weird but with the right person it can get in here and change the way you perceive it

Jesse

completely well i think i think that is the case but then you again you have to employ this radical cartesian doubt of like what is it intending to do to you and if it can do that in the form of an experience it could do that in the form of a data set that it's manufacturing itself as well yes so science is really well set up to study lower level biological systems you know like i can study an ant or just inanimate material very easily but like if i am the ant on the arm of a human being and you're using your own version of science as the ant we're just like you know when we're you have these summoning programs of ufo's like skywatcher is this kind of modern version of this or whatever but it seems like we've been doing this kind of in you know special access programs for a while like we're just what if we're just like raccoons chewing on the power cables and then the humans show up and they go stop chewing on those power cables and then they shut down your sensors and then you're like but like how will the raccoons ever understand what the humans want or why they're showing up when you do a thing when they do a little nuclear baiting or whatever you know so it's that you end up with these like really hard epistemic impasses yeah you know and then and then and then the meta meta thing would be the brain scrambling of the data that you're receiving and of these programs that like happens in the individual allows you to grow and then that growing allows you to make like a better connection your interface and your processing and your measurement system gets better and then you get to to interface more in a way that like actually is comprehensible to you with these beings but i don't know it's very complicated it brings

Jason Samosa

me back to what you said earlier about this idea what if the purpose isn't to have disclosure but instead to have some sort of personal evolution experience through interacting with these things because then you would understand the system would make your science futile it would make it impossible for you to get this big objective theory which we all want because of the way we currently operate as a society what if the next stage of human evolution isn't about that kind of mindset about how we approach things so you know it's a big theory but it's interesting to consider whether or not it's attempting to force us away from our traditional analyses i think it

Jesse

is i think the observer observed dichotomy is breaking down i think the idea of you know yeah like you said sort of some objective theory of everything is breaking down like you're going to see like a sort of maybe not infinite but somewhat fracturing of of reality and theories when it comes to this stuff i think it breaks our prior epistemics i think it's an epistemological revolution it's not a scientific revolution yeah so it's like it's deeper than just like you know oh quantum physics i think it's i think it's more than that

Jason Samosa

yeah what do you think about the human technology angle you kind of touched on it there with the anti gravity stuff from the nazis and how it makes i think one of the things people really struggle with is trying to grapple with with can both of those things be true can we be engaging with this huge phenomenon whilst also human beings may have created technology that could imitate it which that's again something valet talks about which is very very interesting

Jesse

yeah you know and secret machines and you know tom delong's book talks about this as well human craft that is derivative of and even if you talk to bob lazar and you go deep enough with him it's not really reverse engineering it's like parallel engineering it's not figuring out exactly how the thing was it's figuring out how to recreate the thing with prosaic human means and so then you have to ask was the thing dropped or donated as a gift or something to accelerate human evolution or you know to create science that was that is derivative of or inspired by the thing and you know for that you have to go off of kind of you know read the tea leaves on people like philip corso or you know i'm obsessed with you know thomas townsend brown and his anti gravity research and it seems like he was inspired by quote unquote space brothers he actually engaged in a crash retrieval operation in nineteen townsend brown did yes wow in nineteen fifty eight in hartford connecticut that michael swords documents fascinating yeah and then he goes to moonwalk project moonwatch which was this satellite viewing operation they were tied in actually with blue book at the time and robert friend and j allen hynek have a piece of this crash at hartford connecticut and townsend brown flashes his credentials i think he was very spooky and he was like i'm taking this material so it's really crazy because i you assume that it was

Jason Samosa

that that he was able to do

Jesse

that fifty eight so you assume that townsend brown is an explanation or you know away from it's it's a rationalization of why we're seeing these things in the sky because it's just deep black military sr seventy one modern equivalents easy option and then you get into townsend brown's life and it's like like no he claimed he was like kind of communicating with aliens half the time like agnew bonson who was funding him was really trippy and seemed like he was in contact with stuff so it's against you it's a very complicated sort of you end up always with a yes and sort of answer you know and

Jason Samosa

even going back to the nazis right where people like to say they were the ones who generated this technology but you documented in one of your videos who was the individual who said that we had help from what was his

Jesse

name herman oberth right so herman oberth is the godfather of you know german rocketry and wernher von braun's mentor and there's even a audio of him talking about ufo's and he said they were aided and had help and i was just in japan actually and there's a guy named takano josen and he met herman oberth and they discussed ufo's openly and so yeah he was very interested in ufo's did he say anything else about ufo's doctor oberth

Jason Samosa

but doctor oberth truly respected the beings actually riding in

Jesse

ufo's it's really just wild and you did an amazing video on nazi ufo like technology as well and you talk about richard mita and you want to

Jason Samosa

talk about that yeah i mean all those different stories from the nazi era are very very interesting and it's one of these cases where it's very hard to say that there's no smoke without fire i can't remember all the names you've got meter shriver alluo there's like four or five other individuals who all claim to have worked on what appear to be multiple different attempts to build disc shaped craft and with with varying degrees of success i think we often end up in an either or about the nazis and the technology and they say well it's they developed it why didn't they use it during the war therefore it can't have happened whereas i think a middle ground is more interesting that they are experimenting with making these for whatever reason we can get into that later why they may have been inspired and some of them may have been somewhat interesting and half successful by the time the war was closing out

Jesse

it's fascinating the video you made it's amazing and it shows you know mita in fifty two gives this interview to this french paper and he says if you see ufo's in the sky they're probably the ones that i designed and was built by you know the habermal project and you know skoda works under hans kamler and you have rudolph shriver and i think you know saying that in nineteen forty four we finally flew this craft and it rose to you know forty thousand feet in a few minutes i think you even have an apocryphal story where paul mellon who's one of you know founders of the cia his grandson is a guy named john warner iv yeah and he talks about he said he was on his third martini with paul mellon and paul mellon tells him that he and alan dulles were on this like you know tech retrieval operation deep in you know post world war two you know nazi germany or maybe it was like forty four forty five and they're saying that they're standing atop this huge saucer like ufo in czechoslovakia by the way which is pilsen which is where skoda works took place and you talk about in this video which is an amazing video everybody should watch watch it for whatever reason the us was less interested in berlin than they were in going to pilsen which is where this secret weapons program was housed for nazi germany i think

Jason Samosa

what's really fascinating is there was this rush obviously at the end of the war and you see general patton's army arrive and they steamroll like you said to pilsen before going to berlin which is very interesting what's more fascinating to me is the fact that nearly a year earlier the nazis had planned to get out of europe and to take all of their sensitive stuff so we go in there we pick up like the horton brothers thing and who's the guy who made the reverse impeller victor schauberger schauberger i always forget his name right we got some schauberger stuff and there's this idea that the soviets got maybe more than they should have got and we got what we got and we divided up the spoils but in reality there may have been a third part to this which is the mass evacuation of technology and people and gold and money starting in well nineteen forty three but certainly nineteen forty four with the maison rouge meeting i think that is really really important and actually this ties into in delonge's fiction book secret machines he talks about the maynard consortium for those who don't know delonge co authored some fiction books with aj hartley and the idea was can we tell some really sensitive stuff about history and obscure it as fiction jim samivan who was one of the advisors for to the stars academy and i think he's a senior executive service like just two people under the cia director when he was working there so very very senior and he says that book's very very interesting and i can't remember who it was he was being interviewed by maybe james iindoli said can you tell us what it is that's interesting about the book and he says no i'm not going to tell you but if you read it the maynard consortium is very interesting because it's this private organization which seems to have a handle not simply on the ufo issue but a huge amount of power geopolitically as well well a lot of people have been trying to figure out what the maynard consortium is i think i have an answer by the way which i can share and it ties into what happened at the end of the war so you want to go in for a long

Jesse

one on this i want to hear because that's come up a bunch for me and i'm fascinated by it and i do think secret machines i hit a lot of truth in fiction and it was inspired by conversations with general neil mccaslin who by the way is now missing which is crazy he was went missing you know from his home in new mexico and days after trump

Jason Samosa

announced that there was going to be some sort of disclosure ufo disclosure and

Jesse

you have a guy who is the sole source or not the sole source one of the few sources for kind of modern disclosure and a lot of you know what came out of you know tom delonge's work and you know he's this really high up general and if if you wanted disclosure and you were part of the current admin you'd immediately hit him up up and then he's just like you know missing without a trace in a super sophisticated way leaves his phone behind everything that you could use to track him you know is is just you know left behind and he takes a gun very strange it's very strange but in secret machines tom delong's book he writes about the maynard consortium and it's this like ben rich also who is the you know skunk works guy you know in the in the nineties president of skunk works who is responsible for you know know the the sr seventy one and or sorry he was responsible for modern stealth aircraft he writes about an international corporate board of directors that deals with the ufo issue and then townsend brown also runs into this sort of you know the caroline group this international group of industrialists that seem to suck up all of the exotic tech and so and then you have secret machines the maynard consortium which is described very similarly to those two things so what is the maynard consortium distortion yeah well i think

Jason Samosa

i think there's a business that fits the description really well which we don't talk about very much but to kind of build the picture of this i'll i'll give you a bit of a backdrop so let's go back to the maison rouge meeting okay so this is nineteen forty four i think august tenth sometime around there the nazis know they're going to lose the war so at this point i think they've they've had the d day invasions there's been stalingrad it's not going well so martin borman assembles all the leaders of industry into this meeting in paris very secret meeting they sweep the rooms to make sure no one can hear what they're going to talk about about and basically planned the mass evacuation of german industry technology people and based on documentation that peter lender seen they were successful so there's a state department document which talks about how this was in nineteen forty five they'd already realized hundreds of new companies have been set up in nicaragua and argentina and it's all connected to these nazi industrialists so it really happened so the question is why was that possible right we're at war with these people we have all these intelligence agencies operating who had information about this so how did they get away with it the people who were at that meeting were like you said wealthy industrialists many of whom had relationships with american and uk industrialists as well so you have the likes of herman schmidt i think was the ig farben guy you have the representatives of four and standard oil the german subdivisions their heads were at that meeting as well and you have people from this bank of international settlements which is this weird transnational bank as well the important thing and also schroeder so baron von schroeder one of his people was there all of those people for twenty years up to this point had had a deep relationship with the rockefellers with the morgans with hambro in the united kingdom all of these like financial giants and oil giants had been working together together ig farben and standard oil had come to an arrangement where they would have mutual monopolies before the war so standard oil would dominate oil across both sides of the atlantic ig farben would do the petrochemical side and you had agreements between rockefeller starting a company with the schroeders so rockefeller schroeder and company all of this was happening in the thirties they also had already partnered on an initiative which i think think blows my mind to realize this was historical have you heard of the business

Jesse

plot oh yeah schmedley butler yeah yeah they tried to take out fdr yeah

Jason Samosa

fdr came into government had his plans for like the new deal and so this group of transnational finance people morgan dupont all of these people and with support and encouragement from their german counterparts planned this plot it sounds like fiction but they were going to take the this this general who they had a conversation with they said look we want you to do this they're going to raise an army of like five hundred thousand people and march to washington and forcefully remove the president from office and it's true it's history so these german industrialists and the west industrialists they were working together and even as the war began that was happening the union bank

Jesse

was funding the nazis which one's the union bank they i think prescott bush was the you know president of the union bank and then dulles was you know helping out with you know some nazi financing you know everywhere world war

Jason Samosa

two yeah my goodness yeah he's hanging

Jesse

out in switzerland and yeah he was

Jason Samosa

connected to nearly every single like german nazi titan of industry yeah and you

Jesse

had of course ford was you know

Jason Samosa

very tied in the wild thing with ford was when the uk was trying to get into the war they needed to create engines for their jets for their for their fighter pilots and ford said no we're not going to do that we're prioritizing the the trunks for nazi german this is the dynamic that was going on and fdr knew this and he said in a conversation a letter that he wrote that the financial interest had owned america since the time of andrew jackson he was very aware that these people had tried to remove him but they had huge amounts of power so the point here is those industrialists who meet in the maison rouge in nineteen forty four they're the same people who have these relationships with all of these people so the rockefellers all of these big business people can't afford for nazi industry to fall through through they're highly invested in it through subsidiaries through swiss bank accounts that entire industry which is there which is under threat needs to be evacuated to protect their business interests as a baseline let alone taking advantage of any technological advances which have happened so i think that's very very important but there's another dynamic here which i i find shocking just to say it out loud you ask yourself well if that was happening what about the intelligence agency who would surely be monitoring this situation but who is running the intelligence agencies in wartime europe you just mentioned dulles right so you've got the office of strategic services which is run by donovan with dulles donovan's also a wall street lawyer people don't know there was also another american intelligence agency dedicated to south america which is the office for the coordination of inter american affairs and you ask yourself well who would be the right person to run a vast intelligence agency for south america america just turns out to be nelson rockefeller okay meanwhile you've got the british security coordination which is run by william stephenson who's a very interesting individual he has his offices in rockefeller plaza right next to the oss and nelson rockefeller's there too and then you've got the special operations executive in the united kingdom again who would be the best person to run this highly sensitive intelligence network it turns out to be one of the directors of the bank of england hambros so what you've got here is a situation where these finance and industrialists are in bed together before the war during the war they keep trading and the very people who should be keeping their eyes on them are running the intelligence networks which are going to enable them to evacuate all of this technology now that backdrop is very important because after the war all those intelligence agencies basically get shut down reintegrated into different places so what are those people going to do with all the relationships that they've developed well there is an organization which was created initially in nineteen forty five and then rebranded in forty seven it's called the world commerce corporation you'll see it now if you hear that and you go back to lavender you go back to different books you'll see it pop up it is the most bland sounding organization very much like the maynard consortium right which was by the way in the book founded in the late forties just like this was so what is the world commerce corporation well it's founded in panama to obscure its foundations on the bottom board donovan stevenson hambros you've got dulles doing the legal council there's a whole bunch of other high powered uk people loads of oss people who are out of work and there's also connections to organized crime which we can talk about in a minute and the nazi underground too this organization had between two hundred fifty and five hundred subsidiaries after a couple of years so if you look at the maynard consortium one of the big parts of the plot there's is that all of its finances and its operations are obscured by these companies which appear and disappear and that's exactly what you get with the world commerce corporation a lot of those companies can be tied directly to the drug smuggling and arms trafficking which people tend to say the cia did this which it kind of did but it was doing this through private organizations which all root back to the world commerce corporation so this is a very interesting organization which appears right after the war and rockefeller morgan and all these people are also a part of this

Jesse

too whoa fascinating so fascinating interesting do we have any evidence that they had anything to do with ufo's or it just sounds exactly like the maynard consortium from a personnel perspective from a personnel

Jason Samosa

perspective yes and i think you know what's interesting is in the novel the connection to ufo's is kind of like pretty obscure anyway in this case i think you know what we've got to look at is that maison rouge meeting and whatever the best technology was that was taken out of nazi germany would have been relocated somewhere else under the auspices of these intelligence people who had that unique information right so these are the people with the relationships before the war during and afterwards with the unique insights and one of the people i think it was tom hill he was one of the uk members of wcc he said the goal was to take advantage of the relationships we'd accrue during the war and peter lavender when he briefly touches on it he says the objective was to facilitate trade between south america and germany okay that's a very interesting dynamic to have another guy peter peter dale scott is he the guy who writes about jfk deep state and

Jesse

yeah yeah invented the term deep state

Jason Samosa

right there you go the right guy so he describes it as a private intelligence agency for people like the nelson like the rockefellers financiers so very very interesting descriptions from people who look into this and what's fascinating is the bulk of the information i got from this was from a forum online i mean it's amazing what some of these people will dig up on forums they were investigating the world commerce corporation purely through the lens of the kennedy assassination they weren't looking at this in terms of ufo's but for them this organization was critical to that nexus so to be very clear here about the ufo's thing the reason i'm interested is not just because of secret machines but also because of jacques vallee's messengers of deception you might think it's the only book i've ever read but it had a huge impact on me and when he's speaking with this guy major murphy this is one of his key sources in the book we don't know the guy's real name some sort of general presumably he's talking with valet about what if it's possible that people created flying saucers during the war war and he points to nineteen forty three and he says you know what if someone was experimenting with this technology it turns out its real advantage wasn't its flight capabilities but its psychotronic effect and he suggests that it's not i mean valet then butts in basically and says are you seriously suggesting that the nazis are behind the ufo phenomenon and his response is why are you talking about the nazis other people became involved okay okay so the implication here is that somehow this technology ended up getting worked on by other people and wherever that was the really interesting stuff presumably got evacuated out and this private organization appears with huge numbers of subsidiaries and remember all those shell companies the germans set up presumably could be interlocking through all of that obscurity with an emphasis on trade relationships with south america so you know i can't peer beneath the covers there but i think

Jesse

that's very interesting it's fascinating was the royal prince of lichtenstein involved in the world commerce consortium not from what i've seen was it world commerce this is

Jason Samosa

why it's such a boring name world commerce corporation world commerce corporation by the way they also created a world banking corporation a world finance corporation a a banking world corporation i mean like yeah this is when you dig into this stuff it's almost impossible to dig through

Jesse

all these shell companies generic shell companies that you know are meant to not be they're meant to be forgotten like i just did in this conversation exactly i'm falling prey to it yeah i mean you also have a lot of interesting connections between some of these old families that you're mentioning as part of the wcc let's just call it that and ufo's so like rockefeller for example example you know detlev bronk was the president of the rockefeller foundation he was rumored to be the yeah president wow he was rumored to be on the majestic twelve rumored to do all the early alien autopsies president of the medical school at johns hopkins which obviously has a lot of kind of intel agency ties william stevenson was very close with thomas townsend brown in fact when thomas townsend brown did a tech retrieval mission behind enemy lines in world war two there's a telegram from william stevenson to townsend's wife josephine and he says you husband is okay we have him he's okay and he comes back and he recovers or whatever but he was extremely close with town they also went on these sort of trips to the bahamas on this yacht owned by this guy eldridge reeves johnson who was head of rca victor talking machines company and they were interested in really exotic technology if you read william stevenson's biography a man called intrepid he by another guy named william stevenson which is funny spelled a little differently william stevenson that confused me

Jason Samosa

by the way i was digging up william stevenson i thought he'd written some of the books yeah yeah it's not

Jesse

an autobiography but stevenson with a v wrote it for the ph stevenson but glad we covered that yeah he the you know the the super spy stevenson was also very close with a guy named charles charles proteus steinmetz who was working for ge in schenectoche new york and was extremely interested in kind of heterodox models for electromagnetism you know what might be is described today as extended electrodynamics which people like hal put off are very interested in and then you have agnew bonson who's funding all the top theoretical physicists at the time but also a lot of interesting you know people like townsend brown literally working on anti gravity doing anti gravity experiments and he wrote a book called the stars are too high and it's a book about rogue nazi scientists who break off and collaborate with american scientists and create essentially man made ufo's and then stage an alien invasion and he dies a couple years later in a bizarre plane crash which to this day his family thinks you know he was killed essentially because the power lines were put up right where you know he was land right on the landing strip or whatever so yeah and then you have kissinger probably tied in with ufo stuff as well william steinman yeah you know goes to the house of eric henry wang who has ran special projects at wright patterson and he meets with wing's widow maria wang and she's like yes my husband did work on ufo's and his boss was henry kissinger and there are a couple other i did a whole video essay on henry kissinger but there are a couple of other things that make me believe kissinger might have been tied in with the whole ufo thing and kissinger was probably more beholden to nelson rockefeller than he was to nixon throughout his tenure as secretary of state under nixon so loose threads but like

Jason Samosa

oh but they they keep overlapping they keep overlapping and on on on the the american scientist and nazi scientist thing one of the fascinating things with the world commerce corporation is they have a a vice president called ricardo seeker i don't know how you pronounce his second name but sica seems to be the s i c r e and he was essentially i think a a spanish guy spanish spy during world war two who was basically employed by the oss and you know he seems interesting he seems kind of a little bit dodgy connected to organized crime all of this stuff but he had i think he had a colleague or a friend in spain called robert rourke and it turns out they lived in the same apartment complex so robert rourke is writing sort of travel journals and occasionally mentions his adventures with ricardo so he and he talks about how they are part of a secret society which strides the world is the phrase he uses whoa he's describing himself ricardo sica also the oil magnate i think it's jake hamon what's fascinating here who lives in the same building as rourke and sika otto skorzeny whoa yeah so they're living there tell

Jesse

people who otto skorzany is well he's

Jason Samosa

he's he's a famous nazi commando who i think had saved the life of mussolini a big scar across his face and had relationships with some of the highest echelons of nazi power i think there's a relationship one of his wives was very well connected with hjalmar schacht who was the head of the reichsbank and bank of international settlements i think so he had connections to this fraternity

Jesse

transnational brotherhood thing and ironically i think went to south america was this notoriously kind of ruthless guy and and i think then partnered up with mossad after so he like worked with the israelis after being a nazi yeah right he

Jason Samosa

like trained them on some stuff it's really confusing that whole thing yeah what's going on with the the mossad getting involved in it but there's another thing about this too i mean firstly lavender talks about how otto skorzeny is the public face of this huge nazi underground he's the guy with the relationship to whatever escaped afterwards there's also a fascinating entry from a lady called aline griffith who briefly worked for the world commerce corporation she'd later go on to become a countess i don't know why she had that prefix eventually so griffith writes in her biography in her journals that when she first worked for the world commerce corporation she was working for frank ryan the president and they seemed to be doing it seemed to be like a cia front but it was agreed it wasn't really a cia front it was its own thing thing she described it as a precursor to the iran contra situation right so basically drug smuggling arms smuggling across borders using all of those shell companies and then she says it was very different eight or nine years after that because otto skorzeny came in and took over the operation and when he did we suddenly got access to resources and things i wasn't even aware of and at some point she says i didn't even want to know what was going on on so according to her and by the way she was connected to i think nancy reagan and a whole bunch of elite people in the us she was basically saying the world commerce corporation not only was it the precursor to iran contra but eventually otto skorzeny took on a serious leadership role he wasn't just an obscure connection after a few years and i think that raises questions about what those operations may have been that they are engaging in and what shadowy underworld they may have been connected to as well there are other mafia figures connected you've got papal aristocracy on the board as well i mean it's impossible to list all the names here without going off but eventually it links to the bahamas with thomas townsend brown and that whole geographical location how does it link with the bahamas yeah well if you read the novel secret machines again the maynard consortium is like we described founded in the forties has all of these shell companies but eventually in nineteen sixty four something happens right so so very clear there's this mysterious entity called sweep okay and a lot of people have been trying to figure out what sweep we figured out maynard consortium i think but people think sweep w s w e e p capital letters people assume it must be the swift organization right society for worldwide interbank financial transactions the thing is delong's very clear sweep is obscure okay you're not going to be able to figure out what it is it's hardly mentioned anywhere but it involves all this money from this huge underground being funneled hundreds of billions being funneled about the time of nineteen sixty four now i haven't figured out what sweep is but some very interesting things happen in nineteen sixty four firstly you've got something called money rex you heard of this no it sounds like some sort of child's conception of a game or something but it's a real thing involving a guy called i think it's michiel sindot owner again first name i haven't heard anyone pronounce it so i could have got that wrong this guy had worked with james jesus angleton big mob figure and he was basically responsible for helping the mafia move their money without that being noticed in covert ways and eventually he became extremely good at this by nineteen sixty four the mafia was basically saying look we need you to launder all of our money we have too much of it and so he creates something called money rex and i only stumbled across this a few days ago so the pieces are sketchy here but money rex basically becomes connected it's this single entity that's connected to eight hundred and fifty banks and it's used to do the world's biggest money laundering operation ever two hundred billion dollars according to the author paul williams and what's fascinating is sydona as part of this would acquire his own banks many of those banks when he would acquire them two or three people would then acquire all the rest of the shares one was the vatican bank bank the other one was charles hambro so the financier who ran the special operations executive bank of england director and a founding member of the world commerce corporation so and also bear in mind valet i think claim you know in one of his novels he says a lot of this might be traced back to a private european bank from the eighteen hundreds charles hambro's bank would fit that very well anyway so you've got this huge money rex thing which is suddenly able to launch under hundreds of billions of dollars in nineteen sixty four it's exactly what delong describes in the book the question is where does that go and this is where it's tricky to figure it out but a lot of world commerce corporation associated individuals would suddenly be moving towards the bahamas something happened down there where a group of people had done what was called the hawksbill creek agreement and they'd purchased fifty thousand acres of land from the bahamanian government government effectively creating an autonomous state where they had no laws no one was overseeing them they could create as many shell companies that they wanted at scale now which is one of the things that they did and as part of that they created this thing called devco d e v c o capital letters for a little while i was thinking is this sweep you know five letters capital letters i don't think it is but devco becomes controlled by the world commerce corporation who then suddenly take this interest in the bahamas and these shell companies start to appear i think the combination of this mass money laundering and all of these shell companies could equate to something this is a could okay you're with me here in the middle of my investigation but what happens is the bahamas becomes a location associated with all sorts of weird stuff like you said thomas townsend brown is meeting william stevenson one of the founding members of the world commerce corporation in the bahamas you have all of this stuff happening on nassau the the island there and you also have howard hughes who suddenly gets brought down there really yeah whoa i haven't dug into the story very deeply but howard hughes i there's different stories associated with it it seems in one story it's a voluntary thing in another one he seems to be kind of taken down there to be held for some reason well yeah and i don't have a huge like background on howard hughes but he's suddenly in the bahamas as are endless people another fascinating link is alfred krupp so one of the titans of german industry i think he was at the the maison rouge meeting and in nineteen fifty five he goes down there with the richest man one of the richest men in the world axel wenner gren swedish multi billionaire and they go down to nassau to discuss power plays is what's described right big business power plays so there's there's some gravitational force pulling people in the final thing i find fascinating is resorts international you familiar with them no sounds so boring why would i care about resorts international there's this island in that location in the bahamas it's called hog island and a guy it was axel when a grand actually purchased it rebranded it paradise island he's a good marketer he knows what he's doing people are going to go to paradise island and they basically end up building this fancy hotel there and everything you think thinking this is really uninteresting what happens is a weird paint company i wish lavender was here because he could tell us what's really going on there's this paint company called the mary carter paint company it's like a cia front which is then converted into this organization called resorts international which is kind of running paradise island and some casinos and gambling which presumably is being used for money laundering that casino that that resorts international organization decides to create a subsidiary designed to do intel checks on staff which then gets rebranded into what's called international intelligence incorporated intertel this is a private intelligence agency which suddenly is employing some of the most talented executives not executives but cia mi six people are suddenly working for this non state intelligence network which is a subsidiary of what is effectively a casino industry stream intertel i think is interesting and i want to invest time there for a very specific reason jim semivan is interested in the secret machines book and i think we might have pulled some of the threads about why he also talks about this idea of a non state hostile intelligence network i don't know if you've heard that phrase before no i find it fascinating it's in reference to havana syndrome actually and he's very subtle about it and he walks right up to the line he says you might want to consider what mike pompeo had said about this nonsense state hostile intelligence network and it's like wow a sort of a transnational non state intell and you know the world commerce corporation kind of fits that that's what peter dale scott described it as but resorts international suddenly has a subsidiary which has a private intelligence network which is doing very dubious stuff it's connected to organized crime mayer lansky all of this stuff what's fascinating is that's like the seventies you know who becomes the controller of resorts international in the mid seventies who donald trump no way what i know it's so interesting for a brief period he was the guy basically in charge of it for for a year or so whilst this private intelligence network is presumably still being run there are many reasons i find that interesting i mean one of them is the context in which jim semivan references the non state intelligence networks obviously havana syndrome but he's also referencing it in terms of wikileaks yeah he's saying you know that the wikileaks thing may have been coming from there so you go back to the twenty sixteen election you've got hillary clinton versus donald trump hillary clinton's doing very well and is promising to release information about ufo's and try and pull the lid off of things according to sammy van a non state intelligence network is responsible for the leaking of these emails which were pretty decisive in forcing trump in and clinton out but isn't that

Jesse

because pompeo hated julian assange and isn't he just talking about wikileaks it's totally

Jason Samosa

possible that he could be just describing that but what i find interesting is sami van focus on it in the context of havana syndrome you know so he's saying you might want to think about what he's saying there so i've been looking cautiously and trying to figure out where can i identify private transnational intelligence apparatuses because i think this is one of the big mistakes we make in terms of analyzing geopolitics as well is when you're constrained to your analysis through the lens of nation states for sure you know you don't have the granularity to understand what's going on you think well it's us versus iran on it's russia versus ukraine and we all continue to be mystified about what's really going on with these wars these sort of transnational entities whether it's this nazi underground the mafia or a private intelligence network which may have allegiances which aren't aligned with the united states but leverages intelligence from the united states could these be important components to try and understand

Jesse

what's going on absolutely well there's i don't know if you've ever read carol quigley the anglo american establishment but it talks about how how us intelligence agencies were birthed out of this kind of roundtable culture between secret societies in the us and the uk or really britain at the time and it was cecil rhodes and lord alfred milner and counterparts in the us and they had these kind of loose informal organizations and the idea that after nineteen forty seven when the cia gets created and those things get formally disbanded those all go away is ridiculous those informal networks have to persist in some shape or form and then you look at the epstein stuff and it kind of points at that too and it points at a lot of science suppression being a theme he tells bannon that he decides to set up zorro ranch because los alamos physicists are retiring in new mexico and so he wants to have proximity to them he says he kills pawns in an email which is cold fusion paul is talking about pawns and fleischman and then you go back to the idea that maxwell probably robert maxwell because obviously epstein is with ghislaine maxwell robert maxwell is ghislaine's father people always note his israeli intelligence ties which are definitely a thing but he also i believe was tied in with the mi six and

Jason Samosa

so

Jesse

you have this mi six guy in robert maxwell who i also don't think anybody knows interrogated nazi scientists post world war two and then he's setting up scientific peer review and then his you know call it his son in law i don't think ghislaine and you know jeffrey were married necessarily but like his you know his protege who's saying he's going around he's suppressing science in the form of pons fleischmann you know and and so and that feels like this bizarre international network shadow network thing you

Jason Samosa

know absolutely i mean if you keep looking at the connection of all these companies robert maxwell very quickly comes into frame so you're with resorts international you've got perm index and all these things you and they're all connected to world commerce corporation very quickly just one increase of the lens you're looking at maxwell appears adjacent to all of this and it makes complete sense right aline griffith is saying saying this nexus was the precursor to iran contra arms trafficking drug trafficking trafficking in general and this this lack of allegiance to any individual nation or state and this this this willingness to sort of trounce on various alliances to to fulfill your objectives and maxwell's also interesting because of the promise software scandal are you familiar with that oh very yeah right so he sold that to sandia labs yeah yeah yeah yeah so whoever had the back door to there suddenly had all of their information

Jesse

yeah so robert maxwell is selling software basically siphoning off american nuclear secrets to some organization yes that is very weird and worthy of investigation you would think

Jason Samosa

and i think that's where you know what's interesting to me is you know we traced it all the way back to the thirties and those original financial relationships a lot of those people were anti semitic right but by the time you get the seventies and eighties the mossad has accrued such power especially through software i spent years in cybersecurity one time i was kind of asked to write a paper on the israeli cybersecurity industry and i was blown away by how they punch above their weight oh yeah and it's well known now i think in the public that cyber warfare capabilities they're off the charts so the promise software scandal it's not just like an early example of cyber warfare it was the one where no one was ready for it they deployed that software everywhere and got access to information and information's power so i just wonder if about the shift of this network and i think ultimately at that level when you're ultimately a transnational criminal network you don't necessarily have the same allegiances that we might have at our level of the culture but there certainly seems to have been a shift towards israeli power in that that underbelly i think well

Jesse

they yeah they have an elite hacking unit called eight thousand two hundred and that you know all those guys are like you know elite cyber hackers and stuff and i did pegasus also come out of i think so israel which you know is obviously you know if that's on your phone they you know they do track all your keystrokes you know pretty much everything is they've already

Jason Samosa

got it all yeah there's no point worrying about it anymore i mean they're

Jesse

they're on everywhere they're yeah they're they're very competent in those areas yeah i don't know i don't know where that

Jason Samosa

leads us but it's open ended i i mean right now i'm trying to figure out all those connections from when you get to the bahamas and the but where does it ultimately intersect with ufo's and to me this is this is where it gets very interesting because you know what was it you said about this international corporation board that that

Jesse

oh that ben rich was saying well he was saying at the end of his life he was talking about ufo's and he was lamenting the fact that you the ufo issue was governed by this international corporate board and was hoping that that it would be taken under the kind of the umbrella of you know american intel and aerospace world more yeah which is fascinating yes because you hear a guy who's at the tip of the spear when it comes to building recon planes for the cia and you know very advanced american defense tech and he's saying that there's something international above him that governs the ufo issue

Jason Samosa

exactly you think that's the guy who's got the secrets and he's frustrated because he likes doesn't have them that's right and that whatever that entity is if it still exists right now i think you see this sort of conflation of the epstein issue and the deep state issue and the underground criminal networks with the ufo issue and they i think they intersect in there whatever it is today is probably quite dangerous so i'm glad we only went up to the

Jesse

eighties yeah well yeah exactly shifting gears before both of us get whacked you know you you did a really amazing video essay on some of the deeper threads maybe this is just as dangerous by the way but some of the deeper threads of ufology where you basically see this kind of playbook of manufactured division going on where you get this these infighting dynamics of ufo researchers sort of hating each other you often get these sort of constructs as well of like like symposiums studying ufo's in the context of like you you you describe it as like of the lineage of the american academy of arts and sciences which is fascinating so yeah i i want to hear more about that yeah

Jason Samosa

it's super important again you know we talked earlier about how this movement is growing okay and there's more and more people talking about this and a lot of the people involved are doing you know really phenomenal research like look at uap gerb guys you know the other day i i i tried to copy his transcripts into a single document so i could control f them and microsoft word broke he couldn't handle it there was like a thousand pages it was unbelievable yeah he's amazing he's unbelievable yeah and you know you look at someone like him what are your options as you know if you're part of the secrecy faction and you've been tasked with trying to keep this information in what are your options you can go and you can say we need to improve our data leak prevention system so this information doesn't come out and yeah that's one prong of your strategy strategy the other one is how do you deal with someone like gerb and there's many different ways you can do it number one is you can start to psychologically manipulate someone based on their profile and i think no matter who you are if you believe that you're immune to that you're exactly the target they're going to be looking for these people have been practicing the art of psychological manipulation for hundreds of years and we should assume if there's a real there that there and people like you and me and other people who are trying to just keep moving a little bit deeper is there value in trying to interrupt those individuals and there's a very simple way to it sounds like you know again is someone going to get whacked no that's the obvious thing to do right the really smart thing to do is sources okay so what i do is i'm like well jesse's interested in this and what i do is i give you a couple of really good bits of information to start with right and suddenly you're breaking this story about this thing that's maybe somewhat important but it's not too important and you build a relationship of tr with me and now you're thinking well yeah i'm going to make my next video but i'm kind of interested in what jason's going to share next and you know then i start to introduce more and more unusual unnecessary extra information which is not true which gets distilled into the community which then surrounds all the true information but i've also dealt with you because i've turned you from someone who is active and passionate and you've become passive you're waiting for the sources to tell you what's going on and now it's all these people behind the shadows who've got the information and rather than you trying to be analytical and piece it together and be like i think this could be true and this isn't and thank you mister source but i don't believe you this time you sort of get turned around and i think it's a very simple but it's practically free and if you alongside that if you just flood disinformation into the community you'll do a wonderful job of making things very difficult and you know you look at the twenty and back story right yeah i think there's a real conversation to be had about a secret space program for sure of course there is is like if i'm going to build space technology and you know we had the artemis mission are you telling me the united states televised their best space technology ahead of world war three are you kidding me this is nonsense that's crazy and the reality is yeah have people been to mars and be like oh that's crazy it's like don't write it off no like twenty thirty years into the future of our technology will exist somewhere today but i'm going to

Jesse

write it off now because because of corey good and gaia because that's the twenty and bucks twenty and back stuff is so ridiculous it's so insane exactly

Jason Samosa

and all that stuff has a unique effect in the united kingdom where anything that's on the discovery channel is immediately unacceptable you know so like there's this kind of weird dynamic there but the other thing which i see every day unfortunately and it's it's really sad it's like just researchers turning against each other and getting so aggressive and it's it's you know i guess sometimes maybe it's warranted maybe there needs to be conversations to be had but like it's the easiest way to destroy a community it's

Jesse

so crazy you've never seen a topic where it's just like we're covering it should be us against the world you know it's like we're covering like these stigmatized flying objects that point to some greater hopefully on some level aspirational metaphysical truth even if there are obviously dark elements to to it and you just have all this like petty politics of like you covered this and this and this this was just yeah just whatever well it's all good yeah it causes

Jason Samosa

a lot of issues as well because now we all look like a bunch of nut jobs who can't we all

Jesse

look crazy which then you're you're falling prey to the manufactured division you even i think in this video that you did was just amazing you cited this cia playbook which was this counterintel handbook around manufacturing infrastructure fighting exactly and you look at ufo twitter and it's like it might as well be like the real world like mtv is like you know it's like a reality show and it's like you're talking about them again what should be like the most sacred stuff and it ends up in this just you know lord of the flies

Jason Samosa

i think what's happened over the last ten years is ufo's have kind of gone mainstream it's interesting now every time i speak to someone about like i'm going full time with the the channel soon that's amazing i'm so excited you should be and so inevitably you know conversation comes up and people so what are you going to do and i'm like well i've got a channel about ufo's you know people they don't respond by saying like what are you on about normally what they struggle with is like why would the government keep it secret and how do they keep it secret genuinely like serious questions you got to figure out most people are now like interested but there's this next stage now where how do you help those people like grapple with all of this stuff and the same people who did the first you know kind of of movement of this aren't going to be the same people who do the next one and similarly after that different people because you need different types of evangelists for different types of audiences at different times so there is an inevitable life cycle as well and also specialities right like in the uk we really don't have that many people who talk about this topic and actually people in the uk like i said you put something on the discovery channel we're going to be like that can't be true you know like it's it's a default there's this kind of snobbish attitude attitude so you need specialties you need different types of communities you need different people at different stages and we need to be able to learn from each other and not feel paranoid that i haven't cited the exact place i got this thing from you know do your best but we need to be cohesive as a unit otherwise the psyop personnel from that

Jesse

manual you mentioned yeah i agree apparently king charles is super into ufo's have you heard anything about that or yeah

Jason Samosa

from my boy charlie up the road yeah i don't know i mean there's a connection there with louis mountbatten who is his uncle i think okay i think there's a story that something landed on one of his properties wow and his gardener saw it and he he vouched for his gardener and put a report in the royal family is is interesting because of the connections i was talking about earlier about this these elites who ran the intelligence agencies right many of them are sirs they're knighted they're the the uk is a very different beast to the united states we still have deeply systemic issues when it comes to hierarchies we have a house of lords and a monarchy you know it's really weird so i the reason i'm mentioning that is where you might perceive the royal family to be this kind of little spectacle actually they're deeply integrated into politics most legislation that goes through our parliament they can veto it and review it and ensure it doesn't apply to them and there have been claims that different people have been brief about certain topics i i can't remember the details of those i think if you're the king i would be unbelievably bored so i'd be interested in peering into this yeah you know i'd be like you know well i've already got all the power everyone's sycophantic around me about who i am like what am i going to do to stimulate my curiosity so i hope he's into it but i you know if he was to say anything about it i wouldn't trust

Jesse

him that's an interesting it's like the boredom theory of blue blooded elite ufo interest is an interesting thread lichtenstein that's right i was just thinking yeah hans out it's funny my my girlfriend is she was reading this book by shirley maclaine this famous actor out here in la she's you know this very spiritual you know figure kind of new agey but really thoughtful as well and she was writing she wrote a book called going within and she was writing about being in like some government office in dc and she's with clayborne pell who is super into you know ufo's paranormal stuff and actually happens to be biden's he's a senator and he was biden's advisor and it's claiborne pell the royal

Jason Samosa

yeah it rings a bell senator pell

Jesse

and the bud hopkins is there as well and i think has an experiencer there who she like she was you know she's part of some alien hybrid program or whatever and her fetus went missing three months in which is a common thing if you talk to people who are you know interested in the abduction thread and and then the royal prince of liechtenstein is there as well and she's just writing about this casually yeah and you know and then apparently he convened the royal prince of liechtenstein hans adams convened all of the roswell witnesses as well and he was friends with whitley strieber and like he was just really interested in ufo's i think he's still alive i think he's in his early eighties or something was he

Jason Samosa

the guy who was financially supporting the lone stars group you know the sort of post or sat group of scientists they had some sort of sponsor who seemed to be associated with that area

Jesse

what is the lone star who was

Jason Samosa

oh so so after the allsat program was you know they were constantly gonna get funding they didn't get funding gonna get funding so they all they they really wanted to continue discussing things and so they formed more groups is called the the lone stars this is jack valet eric davis halpertoff all the same

Jesse

people ed may who might have been part of that group he was a famous remote viewer involved in the stargate program he talks about working with the royal prince of lichtenstein hans adams so yeah i don't know if that's connected with lone star but yeah i think he seems very interested in exotic tech a and b you know alien ufo phenomena and i think i think he believes that jesus is gonna it's eschatological at its core like he believes jesus will show up on a flying saucer or something that would be a great

Jason Samosa

end to it all finally yeah yeah

Jesse

i'm back

Jason Samosa

yeah okay okay well i don't know where he would have got that from but i guess it's the synthesis of two very different things put

Jesse

together right i think there are people who think that you know that jesus going up on the cloud in the book of acts is a flying saucer

Jason Samosa

or something thing and it's interesting i mean what's fascinating is he's like the most influential person of all time but we just don't know much about him

Jesse

jesus yeah yeah i mean well you know you have all these riddles and parables that he's spoken and stuff but

Jason Samosa

did he speak in the oh yeah

Jesse

that's unclear that's the whole thing it's

Jason Samosa

hard to say the distance in time and everything so for sure you know

Jesse

he was i mean i think he was a real historical figure one hundred yeah yeah and then yeah i don't

Jason Samosa

know exactly from that i think you know he had he had an impact and he was interested but you know what we can filter through that is limited is what i would say to the prince affliction sign if he was

Jesse

here but my guess would also be if we were in the room with jesus he would be notable in any room he's in he would probably have a pretty interesting energy and have a disproportionate impact he wouldn't just be like a dude in the corner yeah i

Jason Samosa

mean the charisma that you need to have that impact is huge or at least the capabilities that you would need right sometimes people aren't that charismatic charismatic but they have an ability to do things which really puts them at the

Jesse

center of the room yes yeah yeah so where do you think all this stuff goes this modern crazy ufo disclosure push obviously there are cynical motives and intents behind it and weird elements and factions all fighting and vying for it and then there's also something very hopeful and aspirational to me at least that comes from it which which is this bulldozer into the past paradigm of kind of materialist reductionism which to me leads to kind of nihilism and so what do you think happens there are positive possibilities and negative possibilities yeah i see

Jason Samosa

i don't know that these are the things that are going to happen but i've recently been just really focused on this tension of two interpretations of what's going on right now and it comes back to that collins elite video actually where you've got you know there are these christian people who believe the end times started in the nineteen hundreds but then there are simultaneously these new age people who believe that we're going through a transition and you know one person's apocalypse might be another person's like the world is changing and you know like pasalka says revelation it's like it's a revelation it's like new information is coming in so how we view the future i think is really important the lens that we bring to it through which we interpret interpret this incredibly mysterious thing is going to be pretty decisive so you know i do i do worry about the religious component and our inability to cautiously delineate between what people have experienced and dogma but i hope i hope that we're going through that slow evolution and that we may be on the verge of something immensely positive positive you know the cheesy phrase is always darkest before the dawn it's getting real dark in the moment and you know my two hopes are one that there'll be a dawn and that this is going somewhere and we'll discover what that is in some beautiful way at moments where i lose hope in that i remind myself of the astonishing testimony of life after death and you know leslie kane's amazing book surviving death has been a huge rock of comfort for me at times times where you know whether it's on a personal level or on a global level you feel kind of hopeless is you know i'm a big believer that all of this has real meaning and you know what we're experiencing here is this physical reality but there's a lot more going on very vague answer to your question but those are the sort of the pillars i stand on to try and navigate whatever's coming because it's short term it seems kind

Jesse

of negative yeah fair enough do you have do you have a sort of a base case understanding of of what is going on obviously we talked about you know the flying objects themselves but there's obviously this sort of yeah abduction phenomena as well and kind of what seems like this bizarre intergenerational breeding hybridization

Jason Samosa

program yeah what's that about yeah yeah i think that that's that's a really important point actually is disclosure how much of that information can even come come out because you know we've already covered like there's this set course menu lou alzando many years ago he said you can't do a ten course menu all at once you have to do it piece by piece so we've had there's something in the air we don't know what it is we've had some of these things have crashed it's very likely not russia or china we've got the bodies there's a secret program and it's sensitive we've been through like five or six courses you know one of the big things that people have hinted at at is information about like hybridization yep it sounds wild so i have like a notion which is like my notebook where i keep all my stuff and i was just dropping whenever i'd hear information about hybrids i'd be like i don't want to forget about this but i'm really not interested in this wacky topic just drop it in that folder and you know eventually i went back in there and i was like oh whoa hold on a second there's like a lot here one of the interesting things was how many different people people seem to have been kind of warned off of talking about the hybrid issue so delong when he came out he was like there's a big genetic component to this and he said i asked my advisors these questions these questions but the moment i asked them about hybrids they went quiet and i wasn't supposed to talk about that the same thing with valet's journals he recounts a conversation with diana pasulka where pasalka is basically explaining that it they i don't know tim taylor who is it is saying like you shouldn't be talking about the hybrid thing and then you've got john ramirez who in twenty twenty two made comments to the effect that everyone is waiting for lou alzando to talk about hybrids like it's coming so there's this kind of idea that we've got this like process that we have to go through in terms of which conversations happen when and so you know i start thinking about the hybrid thing thing and very quickly you begin to realize why it would be at the very least a late stage topic and then you might even realize maybe it's too dangerous to even talk about it so the hybridization thing raises questions because if we can breed with non human entities does that mean that we're related so suddenly you've got really confusing piece of information which immediately leads to another really big question about who was we are next you've got questions about our religious texts and what they really mean so now you're destabilizing religion as well the really big concern here is we have been through and right now are also going through moments where we question the human dignity of the people next to us so in world war two everything that happened in terms of the holocaust was basically about trying to exterminate a specific lineage lineage right a specific group of people and their dna from the planet we see similar things happening right now you know arguably in gaza and israel you've got questions there about you know genocide and about the racial components there what i find very interesting is in the secret machines books the non fiction you've got one of the advisors just outright telling lavender and delonge you know genocides may be a function of the phenomena phenomenon it may be trying to eliminate certain genetic strands for its own purposes that's coming from it could be mccasland it could be general hayden we don't know which one but one of the advisors said this and it was in the book and they were like we need to share this information as part of this project so you've got this huge question here about what is going on in terms of race one of the fascinating links to this is you know when the bledsoe's had their experience and ryan bledsoe recounts a conversation that he had a lot of people have issues with ryan bledsoe that's fine that's okay but he recounts a conversation he had with jim semivan i think it's very instructive semivan purportedly told him you know we think you're hybrids the reason you're having these experiences is because you may have more non human dna or a certain strand of non human dna you read lou elizondo's book imminent it's in there he says it seems to be that people with cherokee blood and dna have more experiences and also are more inclined to go towards a certain type of work right so they end up in this kind of government ufo mystery solving thing based on their genetic lineage so all sorts of different information is coming from places indicating that and it's you know we can't take this as fact because it may well be the case that this is real that there is studies show showing that as you change the genetic profile of an individual certain things happen maybe you gain certain capabilities which would be very interesting but there's another side to this which is whether it's true or whether it's a mythology i tend to i doubt it's just a mythology but either way can we handle that information right now given where we are given the geopolitical conflicts given our inability to see each other as human beings and it's so painful i mean like i'm i'm not in pain i'm i'm here with you in california it's great you know but it's just looking at what's happening around us right now you think if we were to reveal that some people on the planet have more non human dna whilst other people have less that creates a spectrum by which you can judge whether a person is more or less human you telling me you want to release that information into the general population right now no it doesn't seem like a good idea yeah yeah there's so much data indicating that you know and it's it's anecdotal data sure but from this group of people who have been releasing information that's one of the things that's kind of being hinted at

Jesse

it's anecdotal but it's also from guys who are very high up at the cia especially when it comes to people like jim samy van you imagine and it's funny as you were talking i'm all i'm almost thinking like okay so you're an average person you hear somebody high up at the cia say say you know something about alien human hybrids and you are totally disenchanted with the government you're skeptical of everything you know we just went through all this epstein stuff or whatever and you're you're thinking they're just you know they're gonna they're gonna lie to me and so you're you're gonna be so totally skeptical and think that that's just like a distraction if you're the intel person who's super savvy you're gonna know that you saying that will hit like you know some part of the population who kind of wants to you know is interested in this and wants to read between the lines and like learn more and but a lot of people are just going to dismiss you out of hand and so you might even knowing that release this you might be like the person who comes out becomes the spokesperson for this stuff and then it kind of sits there marinates trickles through society and kind of you know it becomes more acceptable to talk about five ten years later and it like it seeps and one academic gets interested and that's how this thing sort of gets legitimized and and and and happens but that doesn't necessarily mean it's only a psyop that that means like they know that them saying it sort of like makes you immune because you don't believe them anyways

Jason Samosa

yeah exactly yeah it's a dissemination of information in a non direct kind of way yeah yeah i think so you

Jesse

know the and they don't they a lot of these guys guys you know some of them i'm sure have counterintel backgrounds and i'm sure some of them have done some very unsavory things in their past but they're also pretty savvy and they don't they don't want to be looked at as total sicko fans in the future like they'd i think they'd rather not ten twenty thirty years down the line especially if they held high positions they don't want to be looked at as like you just bold faced lied to the american public yeah you know as some high up intel person so i don't know it's a very it's interesting i find it's also

Jason Samosa

like that whole strand of thinking is interesting in terms of geopolitics delong again like early interviews before anyone knew who his advisors were he was talking about how some of the things that we did in iraq may have been related to certain groups of people there who were connected with certain non human entities and were helping them proliferate and that that may have been one of the motivations which sounds like a what i know it's like sounds like a mythology but that's one of the things that he was sharing before before he was suddenly like exposed as literally having these people speak to him yeah but you know one of the things i you know so many of our wars don't make any sense yeah yeah what are we really doing what's the real purpose

Jesse

of them yeah well they make a little more sense through the kind of lens of you know acquiring oil and resources and geopolitics so like why would you go into iran for you know a nuclear program that's never really seemed to manifest they don't really they seem like a paper tiger you know as far as actually being able to have those capabilities but then does it put a lot of you know pressure on china and make the whole world more dependent on american natural gas yes it does and then you kind of view like american foreign policy through that hermeneutic over the last seventy years and it starts to make more sense yeah but maybe there's some even weirder kind of you know lens that you could put

Jason Samosa

on it because if you believe that this is going on and we've had i mean we didn't even talk about this this again another idea that's trickled out there is we have a relationship with some of these beings and if that's a thing like we talked about a herman i forget his name the german guy the nazi guy who claimed that they had relationship herman or beth oh herman elbreth oberth yeah yeah herman oberth and you know who is it on our side who may have had a relationship but you're telling me we have a relationship and that's not impacting our geopolitics yeah i think it's probably the key epistemic foundation that we would have to understand what's going on so so but again that's that's that's mystery world we can't see that very clearly but if this is going somewhere that's gonna be a reality yeah and you

Jesse

talk about you know historically you have kind of mystic truth seeker individuals and then you have kind of the canonical establishment you know religious institution that kind of determines what's acceptable as far as what you can believe and not and so this brings up a really interesting question that you've covered do you think the vatican knows anything about ufo's absolutely

Jason Samosa

yeah yeah absolutely i do and i think that the the role of the vatican is hinted at by many people that i would respect it kind of comes up and then it disappears right no one wants to focus too much on the vatican so we'll keep this short but i i think what is you know what is it that makes an institution last for a long time two thousand years there's there's some other institutions like i think egyptian empires have lasted longer but the the key thing is you have to resist right change you have to resist revolution and the vatican did and has done an outstanding job on that you know there was many doctrinal things that came up and they they dealt with that and they were suppressing all sorts of things that would come up for a long time but eventually you have the reformation which in turn leads to the enlightenment which in turn leads to you know like a new form of government over here in america these are all revolutions and demonstrators the vatican conspiring with the monarchies and the knights of malta who lost malta because of napoleon during the napoleonic revolution all of them were like we nearly got wiped off the map you know like late seventeen hundreds nearly completely destroyed all of this old power so afterwards they colluded a thing called the congress of vienna eighteen twelve or something eighteen fifteen eighteen fifteen you were ready for this klein von mellow metternich von

Jesse

metternich who's that he oversaw the congress

Jason Samosa

of vienna i'm glad you're here jess the guy on top underneath him attending were the various monarchies and the vatican the knights of malta and the idea was like look we don't like each other like before napoleon these people weren't getting on but we better get on because when a revolution happens in southern italy that's austro hungarians problem problem so i'm going to send people down to help with that let's systematize our response to change and that is just a reality historically so the vatican has always tried to deal with revolutions what's the ultimate revolution the reality that the biblical narrative which constrains the information especially not even just the biblical narrative but the doctrine that's built on top of it which constrains our interpretation of these frankly bizarre events could be blown open by the next revolution so just as a form of if the vatican has a personality it's conservative now you can look at very specific instances where you can see this at work great one's fatima i went there recently and did a tour and it was really funny because i went and scheduled this tour with me and my girlfriend at the time and we went up to this lady and we spent about half an hour with her and eventually she was like are you guys catholic and we're like no she's like what are you doing here you know everyone else who goes on this tour is a catholic but we went around and she showed us exactly where all these events happened and everything and basically for those who don't know it's a nineteen seventeen kind of period in portugal place called fatima and these young children start to see strange beings this lady appears and you know no one else can really see this lady and the children keep saying she's appearing and everyone's thinking whatever you know but she appears so many times the town starts to get a little bit stirred up by it by their stories and then eventually she says there's going to be a huge miracle that's going to happen on this date this place seventy thousand people turn up and the newspapers document this and all the history we have shows this they turn up in a field and eventually everyone's thinking like am i going to stay here this nothing's happening so they're getting ready to go and the clouds pop and there's this thing in the sky and the sources that we have from lawyers and doctors and you know very serious people describe it as a silvery disc okay it's hovering there and it's suddenly doing this and it's going there and it's doing that it's whizzing around at one point it comes down it seems like it's about to hit them and it goes back and then suddenly the the clouds come over and you know the sun kind of reappears from behind them okay so the vatican basically says this was the sun flying from around okay people said they saw a disc but for the vatican that's kind of dangerous you're telling me there's a silver disc in this guy i'm probably going to stop focusing on all my hail marys and start reading some books you know so now there's this tendency to constrain the information you also have this with cupertino specifically though on that i

Jesse

think the vatican confiscated one of the prophecies from the the orphans or whatever that you know made the prophecy around you know the sun and the virgin mary showing up which turned into this sort of you know sun in the sky but i think the prophecy was more complex than it sort of portrayed historically and it was written down and that piece of paper was literally confiscated

Jason Samosa

yeah by the vatican fascinating yes yeah the secrets of fatima right which is a wonderful way to brand it yeah

Jesse

and then you have the magenta crash probably being held by the vatican as well or at least under the knowledge i think it was held at the sarate bunker which was outside of rome but it was the information about it was back channeled through pope pius xii to fdr and yeah you have other weird stuff too like i don't you cannot believe the majestic twelve docs i i think they were probably some counterintel ploy but clearly part of the stuff in there is real and there's one document original around francis spellman being given access to the roswell materials francis spellman is deeply tied in with the vatican and was it was he a cardinal

Jason Samosa

actually or he was a cardinal and the grand protector of the knights of

Jesse

malta yeah there you go and so he's supposed to get access to the roswell materials immediately but this is in the majestic twelve documents and then there's documentation of bishop mcintyre another guy pretty high up and you know the vatican ecosystem system and he's hanging out around edwards air force base in nineteen fifty four there this is not even mj twelve this is real records of this bishop mcintyre hiring hanging around edwards air force base in fifty four when you know eisenhower is rumored to do his deal with the aliens around allowing medical experiments to be done among the human population so very strange it is and

Jason Samosa

the general catholic influence in america is huge you know in a video that's be released today on my channel we talk about this just again looking at the american republic when it was founded it was founded on a completely new philosophy of how government would work where church and state were separated and some of the founding fathers were very worried about catholic influence in america because you know generally the influence in europe had been to suppress okay and not to allow democracy and the free flow of information but they allowed catholics of course that's the doctrine of america right i may not agree with you but you're welcome here here over time the jesuits founded many universities here at one point more than anybody else including fordham university georgetown and that's a great way to influence a nation slowly you're doing great work with education catholic education has always been very good but now you have access to all the people who are coming up in the youth and you can take those who are devout catholics and put them in very strategic positions and say well i know you were going to do seminary i know you love the bible bible but i really think you should get into intelligence that's one of the people who was the founding the founding director of the air force office of special investigations whoa yeah

Jesse

no way because they pop up all over ufo lore they're always you know somebody in nuclear base sees something and the air force office of special investigations shows up yeah exactly says you know give me all the radar data shut up about this sign this nda yeah okay so he so the founding director

Jason Samosa

carol i forget his first name but the founding director of of air force officer special investigations was a devout catholic who wanted to go to seminary and suddenly found himself in intelligence and of course it's afosi which is overseeing the very beginnings of the collins elite theory which begins to appear which you know we've already discussed is ostensibly not necessarily the best theory to explain everything it's kind of good so but catholics in general appear throughout the american intelligence establishment and there was a census that i saw some data on where thirty three percent of irish catholics had served in the military at some point forty or fifty percent of the medal of honors that were awarded were awarded to i think irish catholics or catholics these are really big swings in the data now that's not to say that irish catholics are bad or anything i'm irish which surprises people but i'm not trying to say this race or this religion is bad the point is the slow influence of this old world power this top down power from europe europe over here in america has has happened and all it takes is you know if you have the vatican who may have an interest in preventing that ultimate revolution and they now manage to get people in positions of key power afosi different general cia directors i mean the number of cia directors who are knights of malta or catholic is preposterously high you get those people into the key functions you've now essentially got a seat at the board of directors of the ufo issue and all of your history and your intelligence apparatus can be leveraged by them as long as you have a symbiotic relationship where you both understand each other because the vatican is at its core a vast network it's one of the biggest organizations probably the biggest one on the planet with so many different networks whether you're looking at the jesuits the knights of malta opus dei there's the pro dio intelligence network i mean at one point i tried to list them all and i thought this is gonna take a long time to dig into all this stuff it's huge huge so yeah i do think that the vatican knows more i do think that they've tried to reinterpret things but you know i wish another person i wish i could speak to is pasalka yeah because there's differences here some catholics believe that we're going through what seems to be kind of like an evolutionary like it's very open it's not that doctrinal and there are some who view themselves to be like a catacomic force with restraining the end times and their job is to prevent that final thing from happening whereas other people are like the final thing's going to happen it's really good you know so there's there's a mix

Jesse

yeah there's the imminentizing the eskaton crowd and then there's the you know yeah let's restrain it and keep a lid on it and keep the institutions kind of intact exactly so and it seems like people who believe both are in extremely high positions of power so it's like it's hard to say that the conspiracy just exists on the side of the like speeding up the apocalypse or just exists on the side of the like you know keeping the institutions intact like who who know or maybe that maybe those are the two seminal factions fighting or something i don't know but

Jason Samosa

yeah yeah i think the control i don't know how far it can really go in terms of total control and now you know you look at pope leo calling out trump trump it's interesting to me because prior to that i was looking at trump i was seeing he attended fordham university he's consistently tried to get catholics into the secretary of defense position he's consistently pushed catholics involved in strange networks onto the judiciary it's palpable but is that just a public spat for other purposes is it real is it genuine recently was it pope francis was the last pope yeah i think he was trying to deal with the knights of malta as well there was some conflict there about them maybe operating a little bit rogue he had to pull them in so you know as with all things you can't simply assume it's all one big thing it's the same thing i i really struggle when people say you know the freemasons the jesuits they're all part of like

Jesse

one big operation no it's clearly not and i think the maybe the biggest fallacy of ufo research as we talk talk about reagan like he spends all his time on ufo's and it's like realistic it's sub one percent and he really is just geopolitics even trump trump really like if there's anything going on there the resorts international thing that's fascinating and i want to look into that but like my gut on that guy is he's not thinking deeply about ufo's

Jason Samosa

you know he's in survival mode yeah

Jesse

he's just thinking about you know how to make things work and you know thinking about geopolitics and so but this was fascinating i appreciate your time jason it's been a lot of fun we could go on for hours but everybody should go check out your channel how do they find you on youtube you

Jason Samosa

just type in jason samosa the channel's big enough now that you won't just find strange images of jason momoa as a samosa there you go we passed

Jesse

that you've broken through yeah yeah yeah

Jason Samosa

yeah so we reached a milestone but you can find me there and i'm on x as well you do have

Jesse

the jason momoa face facial hair i

Jason Samosa

will say that's been a goal i've been working on for a while i'm thrilled to hear you say that that's going to go live right yeah yeah yeah oh yeah don't cut that out

Jesse

oh we won't awesome man appreciate you

Jason Samosa

thanks jesse cool

Jesse

it