The battle for Charlie Kirk’s legacy

Justin

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk.

BBC Podcast Advertiser

Imagine buying a toy for your kid, but it doesn't come with batteries. That sucks. But honestly, it's even worse. When you buy business software, you end up with fragmented, disconnected systems that cost a fortune and don't talk to each other. Odoo completely changes that. Odoo comes fully complete with all your business apps perfectly integrated and working together seamlessly. It's everything your business needs in one place, saving you time, headaches and serious money. Stop paying for missing pieces. Go to odoo.com that's odoo.com to learn more. Self directed Investing, Trading, Full service Wealth Management, Automated Investing, Financial Planning, Thematic Investing, Retirement planning. Phew. And to think that's just a small taste of what Schwab offers. Because Schwab knows that when it comes to your finances, choice matters. No matter your goals, investing style, life, stage or experience, Schwab has everything you need all in one place so you can invest your way. Visit schwab.com to learn more.

Justin

Charlie Kirk was an almost mythical figure to the Trump administration. He had an uncanny ability, they believed, to speak to and to understand the ambitions of of young people. And he was praised repeatedly by the President for his role in delivering him the White House. And after Charlie Kirk was killed almost a year ago, Donald Trump called him a hero.

Conservative Commentator

And so on that terrible day, September 10, 2025, our greatest evangelist for American liberty became immortal. He's a martyr now for American freedom. I know I speak for everyone here today when I say that none of us will ever forget Charlie Kirk. And neither now will history.

Justin

But now, almost a year since Charlie Kirk's death, and with the trial beginning of the man accused of killing him, the battle for his legacy is in full swing. At a moment when the Republicans grip on young voters could itself be weakening. So has Charlie Kirk's legacy been hijacked? Do Republicans still know what young people want? And what does it all mean for the midterms? Welcome to americast.

BBC Podcast Advertiser

Americast americast from BBC News.

Conservative Commentator

You hear that, John? Oh, I think when I hear that sound, it reminds me of money.

Religious Conservative Speaker

We didn't start this war, but under President Trump, we are finishing it.

Mariana

This is a big cover up and this administration is engaged in it. This guy has Trump derangement syndrome.

Religious Conservative Speaker

I have four words.

Justin

Words for you.

Religious Conservative Speaker

Turn the volume up.

Justin

Hello, it's Justin talking to you from the fair city of Bath in the west of England.

Anthony

Ah, lovely Bath it is, Anthony here in the not so fair city of Washington D.C. where it feels like a swamp.

Justin

Now we're kicking off this week with this really interesting business of not just Charlie Kirk and who he was and the fact that the trial is taking place, Anthony, but actually the. This weird and really rather unpleasant battle that there is about his legacy, but also these crazy conspiracy theories about why he was killed in the first place. So the trial is going on. Tyler Robinson is the man who's accused of shooting him. You remember that happened at this university in Utah. And we should begin, I suppose, with what we know actually about that trial. Cause I'm right in thinking, aren't I, Anthony, that this is a preliminary stage of it. And the issue that they're trying to get to at the moment is whether or not it can be a potential death penalty trial. Am I right in thinking that?

Anthony

Yeah, that's exactly what's happening. This is a preliminary measure. It's essentially like a five day mini trial where the prosecutors are presenting their evidence not to a jury, but to the presiding judge in this case. And the judge will decide whether aggravated murder charges are appropriate here. They're presenting evidence, they're presenting videos, they're presenting testimony. In fact, they're going to play some of the interview with Lance Twig, who was Tyler Robinson's romantic partner and he was one who ultimately turned Robinson in and is cooperating with the prosecution. There's going to be video of the murder played out in court. All of this is being live streamed. So we're going to be able to keep track of what's going on inside the courtroom. It is happening in Provo, Utah, and Erica Kirk, the widow of Charlie Kirk, has been in attendance. She has a lawyer there who has been occasionally interjecting. So this is essentially a preview into what the trial will be and giving us a little hint of what kind of a case the prosecution has.

Justin

Right. So I mean, when we say preliminary, there is real stuff happening. I mean, these are real arguments and there are arguments that obviously could have a huge impact on the case itself. But they're also the first opportunities, I suppose, for us to hear some evidence and for Charlie Kirk's family, and indeed his widow to come face to face with this man who's accused of shooting him.

Anthony

Right. And so it's a preview because as you mentioned, there are so many conspiracy theories, Florida floating around now within the right wing movement that Charlie Kirk created this in theory might dispel some of them, but it also, if things aren't presented clearly, or if not all of the evidence is allowed to be aired during this preliminary hearing, it might fan some of the flames of the conspiracy theories. And you have to remember the importance of Charlie Kirk. We talked about this after he was killed last year. But he was a central figure in the conservative youth movement. Even more than that, he was a central figure in Donald Trump's reelection campaign. His Turning Point organization essentially took over the ground game for the Republican Party in the run up to the November 24th presidential election. And he was a big reason why the youth vote, which normally Democrats dominate, ended up breaking to Donald Trump, at least among young white males and certainly the margins overall, much closer than they normally are.

Justin

And he was popular with young people for a reason, wasn't he? He just had something about him. Let's, let's listen to a bit of him in action.

Anthony

Why I believe that abortion should be legal is because of instances like rape and incest. But I already know that your belief on that because you've already stated that

Mariana

if your daughter were to be raped at 10 years old, you would make

Anthony

her give birth to, well, the baby would be delivered, and let me tell you why.

Religious Conservative Speaker

And so.

Anthony

But first of all, let me try to find common ground.

Religious Conservative Speaker

If I say we will make rape

Anthony

and incest abortions legal and get rid of all the other abortions, would you agree with that?

Mariana

Yeah. See, I don't believe that abortion should be used as a form of birth control.

Anthony

So 99% of the time, it is. That's all that we're debating in the country right now.

Justin

And when he was killed, there was this outpouring, wasn't there, of grief among those who loved him and many people loved him. But also this kind of reaction on the broader left as what is it acceptable to say about him, given that many people on the left disliked him extremely. And it was just one of those moments, wasn't it? We should remind ourselves, actually, Anthony, we got some clips of the reaction that there was, the various reactions that there were on that terrible day. Let's just listen to those. The conservative political activist Charlie Kirk has died after being shot in the neck during an event.

Religious Conservative Speaker

I don't really know where you go from here. I don't know where we go from here in a news program. And I don't know where we go from here in America.

Justin

If you thought that my husband's mission was powerful before, you have no idea. You have no idea what you just have unleashed across this entire country.

Religious Conservative Speaker

Evil thought that there would be a funeral today. God has created a revival right here in this house right now.

Conservative Commentator

Charlie didn't just bring young people into the movement. All of a sudden, it started to grow by leaps and bounds. By 2024, we want more young people than any Republican candidate in the history of our country, including, for the first time, a majority of males under 30. Can you believe it, my friends, for

Religious Conservative Speaker

Charlie, we must remember that he is a hero to the United States of America, and he is a martyr for the Christian faith. May our heavenly Father give us the courage to live as Charlie lived. That is what we must do for Charlie. You ran a good race, my friend. I love you. We've got it from here. Thank you.

Anthony

So you hear Donald Trump there, J.D. vance, the vice president speaking, and a lot of conservative commentators. I think that those clips do kind of capture one the initial shock at his death, but also this rallying kind of a feeling that there was in the young conservative movement around what Kirk was trying to do. And this feeling like this was a moment, an inflection point, where more young people were going to be drawn to this conservative movement revival, as one of those commentators put it, where people were going to be drawn towards the kind of Christian evangelism that Kirk embraced. He was a controversial figure. He did say things that, as you mentioned, Justin, made a lot of people on the left angry. Things about gay rights, things about women's rights. And yet at that moment, it felt like something big was going to happen after his death. Now, I don't know, Justin, it doesn't. It doesn't seem like we are where we thought we were going to be in just about a year's time.

Justin

Yeah, no. And that's so much the modern world, isn't it? The modern media world. You expect certain things to happen and they just don't. And I suppose, I mean, part of it. And we'll talk about the conspiracy theories and all of that in a second because it is a very important part of this story. But just factually, when it comes to people's political, and particularly young people, and particularly young men's political attraction to Donald Trump, which is the thing, the single thing that Charlie Kirk was massively involved with and successful with, it is fair to say, isn't it, not only that Charlie Kirk is no longer here, but also that some of the things that attracted them to Donald Trump are also not here. I mean, specifically, for instance, the promise that there wouldn't be wars, endless wars that involved American troops and American money overseas. That was enormously popular, wasn't it? But it hasn't. Exactly. And, you know, then you can get to all the Cost of living stuff. In other words, there are all sorts of basic, fundamental political things that have changed in a direction that hasn't benefited. The idea that young men would carry on supporting Donald Trump.

Anthony

Right. I think those are all key factors in this. And now that we have a little perspective, we can look back at one of the ways that Donald Trump was able to capitalize on young men in particular and young voters, their distrust of institutions, their disillusionment with the status quo. They were frustrated by the Democrats and Biden. It felt stale, he felt old. They were frustrated by cost of living and inflation. And Donald Trump presented a different choice for them, which is one of the reasons why he made such big inroads during that presidential campaign. And for all the reasons that you just ticked through, Justin, the fact that cost of living hasn't gone down, inflation, if anything, has continued to go up. And in particular, that war in Iran and the promise Donald Trump made of no foreign wars. And here he is, not only launching an extended military operation in Iran, but the knock on effects of that. Raised prices at the fuel pumps, raised prices at the grocery store, all of the things that they were promised wasn't gonna happen. All of those things have happened, particularly over the course of the past six months.

Mariana

Months.

Anthony

And when I've been out talking to young voters and we've talked about this before in places like the CPAC conference, conservative conference in Dallas and on the campaign trail, I hear time and time again that it's young voters, young conservative voters who are the most frustrated and the most willing to question Donald Trump among the entirety of his base right now.

Justin

And the administration, frankly, is aware of that, isn't it? And has struggled a bit to try to get them back on board and to try to explain itself to them. And in a sense, a struggle that's been more difficult in the absence of Charlie Kirk, because Charlie Kirk was so good at doing the explaining and the geeing up and the enthusing and all the rest. It's worth listening to. J.D. vance. So J.D. vance, actually a Turning Point event. So Turning Point, Charlie Kirk's organization, which his widow's now in charge of, actually at an event that Turning Point had organized, trying to explain in particular that business of why America had gone to war. Again, let's listen to him.

Religious Conservative Speaker

Young people in the United States, but particularly young Americans in the conservative movement, I think that we have a tendency to get too black pilled, and here's what I say by this. We have a tendency to get too cynical, too pessimistic Like, I'm sure that I've said mostly things that you agree with, and I'm sure that I've said some things you may not agree with. And you may not agree with everything that I say about the Iran negotiation, which I will get to answer your question. But here's fundamentally the issue. When you see a politician or you see a political movement, or you see an administration that isn't doing what you want to do, I think you have two choices. You can say, ah, to hell with those people and check out of the process, or you can say, you know what? I'm going to get more involved. I want to make my voice heard even more. I'm going to pressure that administration to do exactly what I want them to do because they got my vote, they earned my vote, but they can't take it for granted. And I've seen some of this, you know, on various issues. Like. Like, for example, I recognize that a lot of young voters don't love the policy that we have in the Middle East. Okay, I understand that. I also know that we've secured the border, we've lowered housing prices now for eight months in a row, and there's going to be more to come beyond that. We've made America energy dominant, which has lowered electricity costs and things like that. We've made it so that we have the lowest murder rate in 127 years. I'm not saying you have to agree with me on every issue. I'm not saying you have to agree with me on every issue. What I'm saying is don't get disengaged because you disagree with the administration on one topic. Get more involved.

Justin

I mean, the very fact that J.D. vance there, Anthony, is having to say, to plead almost, don't get disengaged, that they are aware that there is something happening that they're finding it difficult to control and that Charlie Kirk would have been very good at controlling, but he's not there to do it right.

Anthony

Trying to convince people not to be cynical or pessimistic when cynicism and pessimism are one of the reasons why they become disillusioned with the Democrats. And now that has flipped around and is a problem that they're having to deal with. It does. It's very telling to hear him lay that all out that way. And maybe Charlie Kirk could have been a better pitch man, could have convinced some of these young voters that the Iran war wasn't all that bad. But then maybe there was no one who could, and maybe Charlie Kirk would have been one of the more outspoken critics. We don't know now, but Vance, on his own, clearly can't do it.

Justin

Talking of young voters, Mariana has joined us. I'm delighted to say hi there.

Mariana

Are you considering me in that bracket of young voters?

Justin

You are definitely young. You're young to me, famously young to me, just as I'm old to you. Take up that point, though, Marianna, about the link between the Republicans and the young cause. It's so important, isn't it? And it's partly the online link, but it's also. It's a real link, isn't it? It's a link that actually matters because young people at the last election voted for Donald Trump in numbers that were important to him.

Mariana

Yeah, I think that the thing about Charlie Kirk is he was such an asset from the point of view for the Republican Party in terms of reaching younger voters who aren't engaged with the traditional professional, conventional media and who turn to social media for what they're looking at. And he was incredibly good at ensuring that his content was being promoted by the algorithmic systems that people were seeing it. And a lot of people took their lead from what he was saying. And I think that that's what they've really lost with Charlie Kirk, which is that he had the ability to articulate his argument and influence an audience. And there doesn't seem to have been anyone else who's stepped up and filled that gap. And then I think they've also lost Charlie Kirk explaining, explaining to them what's going on on social media and what younger voters are thinking and feeling and caring about. And I think that connection actually perhaps is more detrimental to them than. Than the former.

Justin

It's a bit pathetic, actually. You got one or two candidates still kind of trying to trade off his name. This guy Nate Morris, for instance, in Kentucky, who's actually, he was running for the Senate seat. He's. He withdrew a few months ago. But his ads, we should listen to one of them, actually. So these ads specifically saying he was the last U.S. senate candidate that Charlie Kirk ever endorsed, Nate Morris in Kentucky. Here he is, fighters like Nate Morris.

Religious Conservative Speaker

That's why Charlie Kirk endorsed Nate Morris.

Anthony

Nate Morris, we're behind you.

Religious Conservative Speaker

You're a successful business guy, really strong. Charlie Kirk endorsed Nate Morris, the real Trump guy, for U.S. senate. I'm Nate Morris, and I prove this message.

Mariana

So when you've got someone like Nate Morris referencing Charlie Kirk, it presume the assumption is that Charlie Kirk holds the same status in the social media world. That he did when he was alive. And actually I would say that one of the things that has happened since he was killed is that he's become a bit of a kind of joke figure. Like he's incredibly memeified, if that's the right verb. You know, there's loads of really sort of absurd memes, videos, songs about Charlie Kirk. And in some ways, like, Charlie Kirk has become quite uncool in the social media world, which is surprising because before that he was someone who was very capable at commanding the online space. But actually he's become this sort of like, figure of ridicule to some extent online. And I think that could help to explain why Turning Point as a movement hasn't necessarily experienced a bump because he was killed. And also explains why stuff like Nate Morris saying, well, Charlie Kirk endorsed me doesn't necessarily go down particularly well. It's like a lot of younger people who are solely interested in content on social media that engages them and that makes them laugh. And that is a bit weird. And Charlie Kirk was good at that before when he was alive, but now that he's dead, he has become the sort of. He's become the victim of the same tactics that he was very good at using.

Justin

I wonder if there are two reasons for that. The first is that Erica Kirk has. Has struggled a bit, hasn't she, to. To keep it going. So she's meant to be in charge, but actually there are events she's had to pull out from, incredibly because of death threats against her. But also the people who you might have thought Anthony would keep the flame burning. And I'm thinking particularly of Tucker Carlson, about whom we often talk, but also Candace Owens as well, another of these kind of right wing figures. They haven't exactly done him any favors, have they? Because they've just been increasingly wild, it seems to me. And all the allegations they're making about why he was killed. I mean, we started by talking about the trial. Their view, Anthony, isn't it is the one person that we've got in front of a court is actually the least of it. They want to blame on everyone else.

Anthony

Right. I mean, the conspiracy theories and Marianne will go into this, I'm sure, is that Charlie Kirk was killed by the Israelis, killed by the Mossad, that it was because he was critical of the war in Gaza, critical of Israel, and so they had to silence him. There's no, obviously no evidence of that, but it's tearing apart the youth conservative movement. People like Ben Shapiro, who used to be kind of a leading figure among younger conservatives. He's being blamed by people like Candace Owens for being in on this and having advanced notice of what was in their view, an assassination. I mean, it's remarkable how quickly all of this has curdled.

Mariana

These influencers are all competing in lots of ways for views and likes and engagement and they trade off the theories they can come up with, the kind of content they share. And to be honest, it's actually not that surprising that these are people who haven't necessarily sort of piled in behind and said we must honor Charlie Kirk's legacy and this is what we're going to do. They're people who have taken this death and they would probably disagree with this fact but but created more content out of it and got more views and more likes and ultimately have kind of succeeded in that engagement battle. Like people like Tucker Carlson and Candace Owens remain pretty on the pulse when it comes to what's going on in terms of social media conversation. Whether you agree with it or disagree with it and whether it's true or not is in the social media world, as I know too well, kind of besides the point. But also I think that Erica Kirk, like you highlighted, Justin, has struggled to match that style and has found herself the subject of all sorts of criticism and trolling and everything. EL and actually Turning Point has kind of become a bit uncool worth adding

Justin

as well on the J.D. vance thing. Anthony, I don't know if you've read this new book about the Trump administration that these two New York Times journalists have written, but one of the allegations they make, and that's pretty well sourced the book, is that at one stage JD Vance himself was going down the rabbit hole of conspiracy theories when it came to Charlie Kirk and was wondering who else was involved, et cetera, et cetera, which governments or whatever, to the extent that his wife sort of staged an intervention and said, no, for goodness sake, this man has been killed in circumstances that will become perfectly obvious at the trial and you don't need to do that. But I thought it was a fascinating. It's an interesting book anyway, isn't it Anthony? Which has caused quite a splash because it's got a lot of well sourced stuff. But really interesting about Vance and Kirk.

Anthony

Yeah. And I think Mariana will explain this. But a lot of conspiracy theories, it seems like people are using it to explain, get meaning and try to find meaning out of meaninglessness and some sort of explanation for random or tragic events. And so maybe this is JD Vance also being inclined to that sort of thinking because what happened to Charlie Kirk, who J.D. vance knew, I mean, they were friends. That was so senseless. And that just some random kid in Utah could, could be responsible for this. And, and the trial obviously will, will present a lot of that evidence. But, but if that is the explanation, it, it seems so, so senseless.

Mariana

Any kind of act of violence, particularly a shooting where it's kind of unclear exactly why the, the alleged shooter did what they did, gives rise to this sort of misinformation and conspiracy theory content. And when you're someone like Charlie Kirk who made a name for yourself by existing on social media, the consequence of that, whether right or wrong, is that your death then plays out also on social media. And the same things that you probably benefited from or suffered from as an influencer are the same things. That's the prism through which your death is experienced.

Justin

So I wonder now then, if we ought to think a bit about what actual impact it has. So I think we're quite clear that the killing itself reduced the force of the online right when it came to young people and young men in particular, because Charlie Kirk was a unique voice. And without that voice, they are going to be less successful in that area. And then on top of that, I think we're saying the kind of explosion of mostly nonsense and some of it really unpleasant stuff in the months after his killing, has also not done any good to the idea that people will come out in a regimented way and vote for Republican candidates and vote for the next Republican presidential candidate as well. So in both of those things, the Republicans have been reduced. But I wonder, Anthony, are we saying then that young white men, who are such an important constituency for the Republicans, when you think ahead to the midterm elections this November, and we've been talking recently, haven't we, about the various ways in which the Democrats seem to be shooting themselves in the foot. But is the beginning of the trial a reminder that actually they have lost something, the Republicans, that could really cost them at the ballot box?

Anthony

Yeah, I think that there's plenty of evidence now that young men are distrustful of institutions. They feel alienated. They are anti establishment. And the Republicans at this point have become the establishment. They control all three branches of the US Government. Donald Trump is the one making the calls from the White House. And so if you're going to be anti establishment, then it's going to take a toll on the party in power, and that's the Republicans right now. So I think some of this is natural and some of this, as we discussed our active decisions and choices that Trump made. I do think it's fascinating what Marianna said about how Charlie Kirk now has become a bit of a joke, which caught me a bit off guard. But then again, I look at Nate Morris and I look at Thomas Massie and how they tried to cite, tried to cite Charlie Kirk as evidence of their bona fides and both of them lost. And I guess maybe that shows how, how fickle, particularly among young people, their opinions are and how hard it is to stay in touch with this and to try to harness that anti establishment, that distrust of institutions and harness it into something that is durable for one side or the other.

Mariana

You know, watching this all unfold, the images of Charlie Kirk being shot were everywhere over social media. There's been constant speculation about the alleged shooter. There has been all sorts of content about Erica Kirk, and almost to the point where it feels like it's not real. And I think a lot of younger voters are experiencing this through their social media feeds in this sort of hyper reality way where it almost doesn't really feel like someone was killed. And the way they're behaving online is sort of not like someone was killed. It's like it's a joke or absurd or weird. And, and I think that the Republicans do not benefit from that at all because it's almost like, well, that was a phase and that's what we were doing now. That's what we were doing then. And let's see, let's see what we're going to do now. And so I think in order to tap into that younger electorate, particularly when it comes to, like, younger men, you've got to better understand the spaces that they're in. I think Charlie Kirk was a really important person for the Republicans to understand that, particularly for Donald Trump to understand that. And that's how they managed to make MAGA quite cool last election. Like they made being MAGA cool. I think being MAGA has perhaps become less cool since then. And the question is, do they find some other way that they make this seem cool and engaging and interesting, or are there other people on the other side of the political spectrum who succeed in doing that? I mean, you think of someone like Hassan Piker, who is, you know, a controversial and prominent influencer who essentially uses gaming to speak to people about politics. That's the new evolution of this stuff. He's very left wing. Are there people on the right who are going to tap into that audience in the same way? At the moment, it feels like the Charlie Cook shaped hole is still quite large.

Justin

I think you're dead right. Because I think what matters is not left right. And I think in a way it's sort of an old fashioned distinction to make, isn't it? It's not a left right thing. It's as Anthony was saying, it's a, it's a vibe thing, Establishment versus, yeah, vibes thing. And it's not even establishment versus non establishment, I suppose it's vibes. It's stuff that is very difficult actually to kind of grasp in your hands, literally or metaphorically. It's not there. And I think you're absolutely right to mention Hassan Piker because it's. And you think of these people who've just been elected. Well, think of Zoran Mamdani in New York who's still pretty popular in spite of now having to actually govern and take decisions and all the rest of it, you know, can they make socialism cool? Which is what Donald Trump was talking about the other day, wasn't he? And, and if they do make it cool and, and vibey and anti establishment, then it's already appealing particularly to young women and particularly to college educated young women because they increase that, that allure to other groups as well, I suppose is the question that's raised by all of this. Anyway, that's probably just about enough for us for now. So from me, bye bye, bye bye. Thank you for answering our call and continuing to send your messages to us. We do read every single one. We love to hear your thoughts, your feedback and questions as well. So please do keep them coming. You can send us an email. It's americastbc.com the WhatsApp is 443-301-239480 and you can get involved in the AmericasT discord server. The link to that is in the description. And don't forget to subscribe. That way you will never miss an episode. Until next time, bye.

Religious Conservative Speaker

All new drinks are now at McDonald's with refreshers like the Strawberry Watermelon Refresher and the Mango Pineapple Refresher with popping Boba.

Justin

To crafted sodas like the Sprite Berry

Religious Conservative Speaker

Blast with berry flavors and cold foam. Who knew ice cold drinks could be so fire six. All new drinks are here now at McDonald's. Refreshers contain caffeine.

Mariana

The United States is about to mark its 250th anniversary.

Justin

And so on the Global Story podcast

BBC Podcast Advertiser

from the BBC, we're telling surprising tales of American influence on the world stage and in ordinary people's lives all across the globe.

Justin

We have this ability to export our story, and a lot of people have bought it.

Religious Conservative Speaker

I feel like the American dream is alive, but not well.

Mariana

From the BBC, it's the United States

Anthony

at 250 listen on BBC.com or wherever

Justin

you get your podcasts. When you hear the phrase Made in China, what do you think? I'm Tristan Redman.

Mariana

And I'm Asma Khalid. And together we host the Global Global Story podcast from the BBC. And today on our show, we look at the origins and evolution of Made in China because it actually wasn't inevitable. What we're talking about is the world's largest communist nation is at the beating heart of the capitalist system.

Justin

For more, listen to the global story

Anthony

on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.