Marrying A Trans Woman & Uncut Patrice O'Neal Stories | Jim Norton

Alex

Yeah.

Jim Norton

I was in Vegas one time and I put $20 on one of those wheels. Yeah. Or I know I put a dollar on the 20 and they spun it and it hit and I won 20. And I was like, fuck, I should have put 20 in 1 400. And I'm like, ah, that's. That's why guys lose their house.

Andrew Schulz

There's a great story. Like, I don't know if it was Norm or Artie, but, like, apparently they did the gig in Vegas and there was like the most money they'd ever made on a gig. And on the flight home, they were down to 10 grand.

Jim Norton

Yeah.

Andrew Schulz

Of course they spent the whole. I don't know if it was 100 grand. I don't know if it was a million bucks. I don't know, like, what these guys were making, but, like, somehow they managed to lose the money.

Jim Norton

Yeah. I used to get text from and calls from boss all the time. His boss is a very bad gambler and he would call from Vegas. He'd be there for a day or two and he would have blown through his money and he would need people to send him money.

Andrew Schulz

I think that they booked acts like that on purpose.

Jim Norton

I think this is. And this is how smart dice is. I toured with dice for three years. I love dice. And he was the first comic to work the Venetian in Vegas.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Jim Norton

So I remember we went to the Venetian before it was just opening. They'd never done comedy. And he went and gambled and he had a duffel bag full of money. And I think it was. He dropped 250,000 in cash at the Venetian.

Alex

Wow.

Jim Norton

And after that, he got a two year deal to perform in the Venetian because they're like, oh, this guy, he's going to spend. And I always wondered, did Andrew do that on purpose? Like, he was a smart guy and he had worked every casino. So if they think that you're a high roller and you gamble, they're much more likely to give you a concert.

Andrew Schulz

They book him four times a year, he never gambles again. And then he just cleans up.

Jim Norton

Oh, no, he did.

Alex

They were right then. That is clever. You drop 100k once and you get booked for shows.

Jim Norton

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I always thought that might have been a strategy because he went in there and he thought I was bad luck. He thought I was a mush. And he was probably right. So he made me leave the casino. Yeah. He was like, tell Norton he's got to go. So I had to walk into another casino because he was fucking down like 120,000.

Alex

I mean, what are you going to do in Vegas, you know? You know what I mean? You of all people.

Jim Norton

I know there was one escort I used to see every time I went out there. I would go out at night, early before the shows, and I would always see this one girl, I forget her name. And there was one woman who would dress like a nurse and come over.

Andrew Schulz

Would you ask for this?

Jim Norton

No, she just did like her picture. She had like a little nurse's hat on and she would come over and piss on me.

Andrew Schulz

That was a great trip, man.

Jim Norton

What's up, everybody? Welcome to Flanking.

Andrew Schulz

Today we're joined by comedy legend Jim

Jim Norton

Norton,

Andrew Schulz

The sexual addict. First of all, I'm looking back into so many of your stuff. Like there's just these amazing stories because you've been talking on air for like decades. So there's a lot. But the one that Sam Roberts hits me up with, he goes, you got to ask him about when he had a pregnant prostitute in his grandma's basement.

Jim Norton

That was, you know, some. We look back on and we're not proud of him. That was. I had just gotten sober and my buddy and I went down to New Brunswick and picked up a pregnant prostitute because I would get them off it. And my grandmother used to live in the basement of my parents house, but then she had a heart attack and she died. But the bed was still there, so I would bring. Sometimes when you say these things, you're like, not a good time in life. But we had her little living room down there and her fucking book on Kennedy and we brought back a pregnant prostitute and she sparked up a crack pipe and my parents were asleep upstairs and I think I had just gotten blown or my buddy had just gotten blown. And then I just smelled. I don't know if you ever smelled crack, but it's a very distinctive smell. It's like a medicinal smell almost. And she was standing there about eight months pregnant, smoking a crack pipe in my grandmother's, my dead grandmother's basement while I kind of was like, wow, you're supposed to be a sober guy.

Andrew Schulz

This is you just getting sober?

Jim Norton

Just getting sober. I was worried my parents were going to smell the crack coming up into the, into their bedroom. So that was, that was kind of a story I wish I didn't have to remember, you know, what would be

Mark Gagnon

the type of escort you got when you weren't sober.

Jim Norton

I didn't do it when I was drinking when I.

Andrew Schulz

You got sober at 18?

Jim Norton

18, right. So I started getting. Going down to New Brunswick. When I was about 18 or 19, when I first started driving. I never did it before that. I would just drive down Commercial Avenue, Remsen Avenue, George street, kind of where the stress factory is. And I would loop, loop and loop

Andrew Schulz

for hours and find like street walkers.

Jim Norton

Yeah, yeah, Always, always street walkers.

Andrew Schulz

And how old are you when you start with the street walkers?

Jim Norton

About 18 or 19.

Andrew Schulz

And what happens at 18 where you're like, I think I'm gonna fuck prostitutes.

Jim Norton

I don't. You know, you strike out enough times and then you just remember, I drove, I would see that girl when I would drive by. And it's literally. I don't know what a religious experience feels like, but the first time somebody gets in your car and sucks your dick and leaves, you're like, wow, I, I am home. It just felt like it was the addiction just kind of like. It was like a dopamine shot. It was like.

Andrew Schulz

Same feeling from drugs.

Jim Norton

Yeah, exactly, same feeling.

Andrew Schulz

Okay, so you're freshly sober now. You get this like rush.

Jim Norton

Yeah.

Andrew Schulz

And it doesn't feel like it's going to be too detrimental.

Jim Norton

Right. Because you don't know where it's going to go or how much money you're going to eventually spend or how much energy you're eventually going to put into it.

Andrew Schulz

What were you spending, you know, back then?

Jim Norton

Not much. I mean, it was 20 or 30 bucks. But as life goes on and you start doing better, you spend a lot of my. I remember when Charlie Sheen said he spent 50,000 in a year and the whole country was shocked. And years later, I was like, what's the big deal?

Andrew Schulz

What do you think the most you spent is?

Jim Norton

I never, I was. The most I ever spent with one person was a thousand. I never went crazy with like the high priced, you know, it was just, it was volume. I was a volume shoppers.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah, a lot.

Jim Norton

Four or five nights a week. Sometimes really once a day, sometimes twice a day. Yeah, it was really bad. It was just obsession.

Alex

Did you ever have to deal with pimps?

Jim Norton

No, not really. I was very paranoid. Like, I was very careful when I would ride around. It was like a ritual. It was like, it was literally like I would ride around, I would only pick up a hooker if she came to the left side of my, my, my car. Like, it was bizarre how I would ritualize the whole thing. So sometimes I'd ride around for five hours and not get anybody. And I would just piss into a cup and keep dumping it out the window. That's my life.

Alex

That's so Funny. You're like, I don't, I don't do gambling, but I will find street walker 100%.

Jim Norton

Yeah, I did that for years. But it was also like my favorite part of it. When I look back, I remember I used to love talking to them on the way back. Like, I was like, I used to enjoy the conversations after. It was almost like I was lonely and I didn't know how to talk to girls. And then after we had like sex, I would chat with them. And I always loved hanging with them afterwards, having a conversation with them. Yeah, that was, I realized, like, that was kind of my favorite part of it.

Mark Gagnon

But was it like the talks like, oh, you don't have to do this. I can get you out of this.

Andrew Schulz

Like, were you trying to save them?

Jim Norton

Yeah, you do go through that, where I'm gonna rescue you and show you what a relationship. Which I wasn't. I had a girl say that to me. She's like, she's like, you're a nice looking guy. Why are you doing this? You don't have to do this. And it really affected me. I was probably 20 when she said that. And I still look back and go like, that was a really impactful moment. Didn't slow me down at all. But it made me think, did you ever date any of them?

Andrew Schulz

Like, did it ever become like a relationship?

Jim Norton

There was some that I would see after. There was one dominatrix who I, for a year who became a long term girlfriend.

Alex

Yeah.

Jim Norton

I would fall in love quick. I love, Like, I never looked at sex workers. Like they were less than I looked at them. Like, wow, she's actually spending time with me. And I loved them. I thought they were amazing. Yeah.

Andrew Schulz

So Sam, Sam said that.

Mark Gagnon

Whoa.

Andrew Schulz

He said that you love, you love the chat. Like, you love the dirty talk. Like Sam was like with him.

Alex

Can you explain what Sam is for, people?

Jim Norton

Oh, yeah.

Andrew Schulz

Sam Roberts, absolute legends. You guys probably know him from wwe. You know him from the Jim and Sam Show. Know him from Opie and Anthony. I think he was interning back then.

Jim Norton

Yeah. He would just send me voice notes about wrestling and I would jerk off.

Andrew Schulz

But he said, he said that like

Jim Norton

he would see you.

Andrew Schulz

It could be seven in the morning, you guys are on the radio. But like, once you're engaged in the chat.

Jim Norton

Yeah.

Andrew Schulz

Now he also told me there's a story where you were driving somewhere with him.

Jim Norton

Oh, God. Yeah. My road manager wasn't available, so Sam came to help me sell merchandise. And I think as we were driving back, I think I Was voice talking. I think I was voice texting, if I remember correctly, with this one girl who I just. Once you lock in, man, it's kind of hard because they're. They're talking, and I can never tell someone, like, all right, get back to you. I'm all lathered up. But I think he was in the passenger seat.

Andrew Schulz

Passenger seat, just ripping and saying dirty talk. Voice notes.

Jim Norton

Yeah, sending dirty voice notes. But it felt like I. I was so comfortable with him, I didn't care. Like, I mean, I knew the guy for years. I'm like, sorry. This is the. This is the. This is the negative side of being friends with Jim Norton is once in a while, you're going to have to hear how big is your clip? While I'm driving doing 80 miles an hour down Route 78.

Andrew Schulz

Dude, that was a joke I remember from. From your special.

Jim Norton

What was it?

Andrew Schulz

Monster? Was it monster?

Jim Norton

Maybe Monster rain.

Andrew Schulz

Monster rain. The. The. I like a big. Looking like a basset hound.

Jim Norton

Was it a. Oh, a basset hound. Might have been. Monster rain. Poorly packed luggage was one of the later ones. You can see through snow pants. Yeah. There was a lot. A lot of naughty references to large vaginas. Yeah.

Alex

When you were doing this, were you ever ashamed to tell your friends? Like, was there a period of, like, hiding, or were you always open?

Jim Norton

Certain things I was quiet about for a long time, but, like, early on in Stand up, like in 91, 92, when I would do. I was still doing open mics, and guys like Florentine, who was. Got me my first pay gig, and Bobby Levy, they would come and they would always, like, we would all be on the same show and they would laugh at the stuff that was honest and that was about my life. And I kind of realized, like, wow, if the comedians think this is funny, you should talk about this. And it felt original and it was mine, so I didn't have to memorize it. I just knew it.

Andrew Schulz

So you were talking about this shit early on open mics?

Jim Norton

Yeah, like. Like, you know, again, in New Jersey, when we would do. Do like this, this hotel had an open mic. It's funny. It's where I first met Aries Spears. He was a kid. His mom would bring him to open mics. He was underage at the time. He's been at it a long time, man. And he was funny. You could see he was doing robocopy. The kid is great. But this is probably 91 or 92. So, yeah, I started talking about all this, but you limit your options. When you're talking about that stuff, what do you mean? Like, certain guys don't want you to

Andrew Schulz

open for them because they're dirty.

Jim Norton

Yeah. And, you know, you understand you're not going to have a. Necessarily a TV route. You know what I mean? Like, there's no way to make Big Clit Tonight show clean. How do I say that in, like, euphemisms where I can get that through on tv? So you realize early on my path is not going to be that.

Mark Gagnon

And then what about, like, friends and family?

Jim Norton

My parents didn't see me for seven years. I didn't let them come because I never wanted. I. I saw. You ever see the movie Fame? There was a. It was like from 1980 David Bowie

Andrew Schulz

movie or something like that.

Jim Norton

No.

Andrew Schulz

What am I thinking about?

Jim Norton

Irene Caro is in this one, but there's a comedian named Ralph Garcy, and he performs and he. He kills in front of his friends, and then he bombs when he's drunk and alone in front of an audience with no friends.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Jim Norton

And I always remember that. I'm like, never have your friends there, because you're gonna get a fake reaction.

Andrew Schulz

So I was, like, terrified of having my friends there.

Alex

Oh, my goodness.

Jim Norton

It's embarrassing.

Alex

I never understood these guys that are

Andrew Schulz

like, want to bring their friends.

Alex

I walk into an open mic, there's 40 people. I'm like, why? There's so many people here. And they're like, oh, so. And so is doing his first open mic.

Andrew Schulz

I'm like, why never, dude, he brought

Alex

40 people to see him Bomb.

Andrew Schulz

To this day, if I see someone I know in, like, the front row or something like that, like, if. If I could, I would just remove them and put them in another part of it.

Jim Norton

I do.

Andrew Schulz

It's crazy.

Jim Norton

I would rather have fucking Oswald in the front row than my friends. I hate see seeing a recognizable face. My parents come always in the back. Yeah, I don't want to see. I want just a, you know, blackout light. And they're in the back and I don't see them. I don't want to see. My buddy Sean came with his family one time to Caroline's, and they don't know. The people just sat them and it was right up front. My buddy and his family. I was just, you know, it's humiliating. So I know what I talk about. That's why I don't. Your parents there when you're talking about this? I'm talking about.

Andrew Schulz

What do they say after the show?

Jim Norton

Oh, you were wonderful. I got very well. My parents Are great. Like they were just so happy I stopped drinking and fucking, you know.

Mark Gagnon

Oh.

Andrew Schulz

So they were supportive and everything.

Jim Norton

100% with everything in my life.

Andrew Schulz

So where is this like, because all of your childhood stories are kind of insane. Are you aware of how your childhood stories are insane? Or did you think it was normal? Because that's what everybody was doing to me.

Jim Norton

They feel very, very run of the mill and very uneventful.

Andrew Schulz

Even when you would talk about them and get these big reactions, the reactions

Jim Norton

I would get from people told me like, wow, I guess everybody didn't have this, but I mean, it was all me. Like my parents did the best they could, but you know, we were in Edison. It was kind of in. It was in the 70s, it was a different time.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Jim Norton

You aren't supposed to be monitored all the time.

Andrew Schulz

Right.

Jim Norton

You know what I mean? If you and your friends snuck off and did whatever you did or it

Andrew Schulz

was what it was, just throw a couch on the highway or whatever.

Jim Norton

Oh, that's when I was a teenager. Yeah. Yeah. This bodybuilder I knew used to come by and me and his 13 year old brother would hang out and we would do self. We would just do destructive things. Like we tried to set the couch on fire and push it onto the highway. We were hoping a car would hit it. We were very bad people. We were very bad people, Stanley.

Andrew Schulz

But you did push it in, right?

Jim Norton

Oh yeah. That went onto the highway and it

Andrew Schulz

just didn't end up hitting a car. But like someone could have died and the horrible place could have happened.

Jim Norton

Oh yeah, yeah. But I was 13 at the time. I mean you didn't, you didn't care.

Andrew Schulz

What about the story with the ice cream on the furry seat?

Jim Norton

Same people. Yeah. We would ride around, we used to take motor oil and put it in these margarine dishes and we would find people's open car windows and throw motor oil oil on their dashboards. It was just piece of shit. Like, it really was. It was like I was the living embodiment of Reddit. When I was 13 years old, I was a living message boy. That's what it was. That was our idea of trolling. Yeah. And one time we found ice cream, a big thing of melted chocolate ice cream. And we put it all over this seat and this guy had like this fur back, you know, the fur seat cushions. And we came back like five minutes later and we saw this like 80 year old woman wiping chocolate off her husband's back.

Andrew Schulz

So he just sat on it.

Jim Norton

He sat right in it. And she was just wiping chocolate off this old man's back. And I. And it was. It was. It was victory, I felt, because it was harmless. It didn't hurt them. Yeah. I mean, now I look back and I'm like, kind of like, oh, that was not nice to do. You're 13.

Andrew Schulz

I mean. No, this is a great prank.

Jim Norton

Come on. People are shooting up schools now. All we did was. I mean, come on, that was fucking innocent.

Andrew Schulz

Did you always know that you were like. Another funny thing about. About you that I've always appreciated is, like, how inclined you are to cheat and how you haven't gotten better at it.

Jim Norton

Cheating with women. Yeah.

Andrew Schulz

Like, as long as I've known you.

Jim Norton

Yeah.

Andrew Schulz

You've gotten caught cheating.

Jim Norton

I have, yeah. And I've also gotten away with it a lot. And the reason I don't. Until, you know, while I. With my wife, I've been really surpr. Surprisingly good. I mean, what am I gonna say? Hold on, hold on, hold on. You've been good at not cheating and not cheating.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Jim Norton

Learn what to do. I'm fucking. Not yet. No, I haven't. But it was because I was. When I met her, I was kind of at the end of my run. It doesn't mean it's easy or that I'm not still a fucking pervert at heart, but it was like one of these things where I had done it for so many years, so recklessly, and I, you know, I. I got busted by a couple of different girls who I really liked, and I hurt people and I ended relationships and I'. You gotta fucking stop.

Andrew Schulz

Guys. Here's all of our dates in 30 seconds. June 5 and 6, I'm going to be in Virginia Beach. And then August 8, I'm going to be in Halifax, Nova Scotia, with SNL's Cam Patterson, Lucas Zelnick and Mark Gagnon. Theodorcheals.com for those. And then also we have the Life Paddle classic charity tournament, June 4th. Shout out neurogum for doing this with us. All the proceeds go to BabyQuest, which is the IVF charity that my wife and I work with, many other people work with. And it's helping people start families. Very expensive process. So it's alleviating that pressure for them. And Neurogum has the dad Bundle, the Andrew Scholz dad bundle that they're selling right now on their website. And if you buy that or you just want to donate, you don't have to just buy that, but the proceeds will be going to BabyQuest, so you can help support also come out to the tournament. It'd be absolutely great. You can sign up, you can play and yeah, we're just going to raise a bunch of money for people trying to start families playing the most fun sport that there is. Awesome. I hope to see you guys there. June 4th, Paddle House in Dumbo, New York. Love you guys. Mark, what you got?

Alex

Great news everybody. I'm going to many, many cities at the end of the year. I'm going to Plano, Texas, Chandler, Arizona, Pasadena, California, San Diego, Detroit, Michigan and Salt Lake City, Utah. It'll be a wonderful time and I can't wait to see you guys all there.

Mark Gagnon

Alex and I'm doing a lot of stuff in New York this summer. We have cancelled comedy. We have another canceled comedy show that is June 24th. Head over to cancelcomedyx.com and then I have another one of my tennis series that is on July 25th and you can get that@theallloveclub.com see you guys there. Peace.

Andrew Schulz

You tell the story about when the dirty text got printed.

Jim Norton

Oh my God, that was. And she's one of my best friends today. That was my girlfriend at the time who was great. She was fucking dirty. She would do anything, but it didn't matter. It's like when you're in addiction, it's not about. You know what I mean? Like when you're a compulsive overeater, you have a stake. It doesn't mean that you're not gonna go home and fucking pig out on junk food. It doesn't mean anything. So I was dirty texting with this woman and it was really fucking good. And I saved it. And I saved it to my hard drive because I was gonna jerk off reading it later. Cause that's the best part of intrigue. It's the going back, the euphoric. I had a 12 step sponsor teach me that before Recall. I'm like, fuck it. That's exactly what it is. Tweedling my nipple.

Alex

He's my recall to the AA guy.

Jim Norton

Dude, it was such a good dirty talk session. And it was a Saturday morning and I was doing radio five days a week. So it was like Saturday mornings I slept in and I just. I heard Jim, Jim get up and I opened my eyes and my girlfriend was standing in the bedroom doorway. And I just knew something was like bad. Something bad had been discovered. Because she never would have woken me on a Saturday morning knowing that that was my weekend. And her term, her tone of voice, I just knew I was fucking in trouble. She goes get up and I'm like, what? And she goes, I read your fucking conversation. I'm like, what do you mean? I'm like, I didn't do nothing. And then she mentioned the girls, like the screen name or whatever, what might have been like an AIM chat. I don't know, whatever it was. But she mentioned something that I knew she had read it. And I'm like. She goes, you printed it? I had sent it to my printer by mistake. I meant to save it to a hard drive, but I printed seven fucking pages of filthy text. And it went. And the reason she found it is because she was taking a college course and had printed out a paper to hand in to her professor and fucking got it out of the thing. And she goes, thank God I looked through it before. Cause it was her paper. And me going, can I smell it if you put it on my nose?

Andrew Schulz

No.

Jim Norton

Oh, my God. It's one of the. And I firmly believe that if she had handed that in that she would have stabbed me in my sleep. Like she. Cause she had a temper and she was very, let's say, volatile at times. And if she had also. And she also. There was an email address I had which is gone. I deleted it that day. But I just realized, like, wow, man. She almost got the mother load. And that was.

Andrew Schulz

Aw. What is in the motherload? What's in there?

Jim Norton

It was nothing. It was literally stuff. It was just a volume of dirty talking and perverted pictures. Just people sending me shit. Like, you know what I mean? It was more intrigued than anything else.

Andrew Schulz

What is the dirty talk like, trying to get into? And is there a moment where you cross, like, the threshold of normalcy where you're, like, seeing how they're going to respond?

Jim Norton

It has to be. It has to be something she's into talking about. It doesn't turn me on at all if it's me making her like that doesn't like, hey, pretend you're. Pretend you're this.

Alex

Yeah.

Jim Norton

Improv.

Alex

Which sucks for everyone.

Jim Norton

Improv is never fun, especially when you're fucking trying to get off. I mean, I need organic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because somebody's real perversion, I think, is very sexy. It's like, I love that there's a weird connection with somebody when you're being dirty and they're being dirty and they're like, showing you things that people who have known them for a decade don't know. Yeah.

Mark Gagnon

Even if you're not into the things they're talking about, you just, like the

Jim Norton

fact that they're into some things yeah, certain things I probably wouldn't term like. You know what I mean? Like, there's certain. Certain things I might not like doing. And I. But I would never judge somebody. Like, I'm okay with you talking about anything. You. Even though certain things wouldn't probably turn me on, but I would never shame somebody or scold them for being that way. Better not. No, I'm in no position. I'm in no position. But, like, you know, the word sniff became like a great intrigue word. Like, if a girl says she's gonna put her ass on my face, I'd go, all right. And she'd go, and you're gonna sniff it. I'd go, oh, this is a. I'm onto something here. This is a fucking. She's locked in. She gets. You know what I mean? She understands these weird trigger words.

Andrew Schulz

As you got famous, did people. Did girls start, like, knowing that that's what you're into and start kind of curating their identity around that?

Jim Norton

I don't know, like. Cause I don't. A lot of times you don't know them when they're coming in, so you don't know who they are before they show up. So I don't know what their real mentality was before.

Andrew Schulz

Right.

Jim Norton

But you know how it is, like, when you're known, like, especially with radio, because it was 25 hours a week. It was. You know, people really know your life.

Andrew Schulz

And this is the heyday of radio. That's another thing that we gotta understand. So, like, the show Opie and Anthony and I wanna get into that a little bit, too, but just, like, radio's as big as it possibly can be. And this show was massive and also, like a cult following. And also kind of like a rebellion against traditional radio.

Alex

And also massive in New York City

Andrew Schulz

and, like, Jersey, Philly, like, Tri State area.

Alex

And people see you like you are existing within the space where it's being consumed.

Jim Norton

Boston. Yeah, it was. It was. It was regular radio for a while. I was on regular, like, terrestrial radio for a couple years.

Andrew Schulz

This was cbs.

Jim Norton

This was. Yes, cbs. It was originally Infinity Broadcasting, I think, but then it became CBS kind of bought it, and Viacom bought the whole thing. And we eventually got fired, but we came back on satellite in 2004. You know, you're talking for. There's no. We had, like, literally four hour show at first, and there was no commercials at that point, so we would play Carlin bits just so we could stop talking.

Alex

Wow.

Jim Norton

But your first break was an hour, hour and a half. So on slow news days, personal shit comes out because you have, you know, August was a rough month. Oh, man. Because everyone's on vacation, not much is happening and you know what I mean, it's like, you know, it's August 11th and you're like, yeah, what's going on?

Andrew Schulz

Read the text, Jim.

Jim Norton

Me and my friends were jerk off together when I was 7. You just start spitting stuff out because you have to fill four and at some points five hours, right? People get to know you. They become very invested in you in a good way and a bad way.

Andrew Schulz

So then these girls who are like, maybe a little freaky are like, okay, I got my guy who I can kind of really open up to and kind of explore this side of me.

Jim Norton

Yeah, I think so.

Alex

Have you met someone? A woman with your level of freakiness?

Jim Norton

Oh, yeah. I met way dirtier than. Of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Women are the same as we. They're not. They're just. They're not allowed to let it all hang out because the line would be out the door. So they have to be more selective as to who they shut. Like, if you're a guy and you're like, I'm a pig, so what? But if you're a woman and you're like, I'm into spanking and dirty, like, you know, there'd be too many. You'll be overrun with people willing to engage.

Alex

Oh, it's interesting. So they hide it. But then when they meet someone that maybe they're a little more open with can reciprocate.

Jim Norton

I think so, yeah. They think they know they're not going to be judged. I always thought women knew. I was never going to judge them either. Like, whatever you're going to say to me, I'm never going to think that you're a fucking piece of shit or you're left. At least I hope that's there.

Andrew Schulz

Anything that they said. Dude, was there a girl that went to a point where you felt uncomfortable?

Jim Norton

Not really. No. Because it was all talk, like, you know what I mean? It was.

Alex

Can I. Can I pitch you a list of paraphilias? And then you tell me if you have any experience.

Jim Norton

What is paraphilia?

Alex

A paraphilia would be just like some type of different erotic fixation.

Jim Norton

Sure.

Alex

Okay, so like for example, acherotomophilia, that's people with amputations.

Jim Norton

Not my thing. I heard a cop one time reference that he called them stump fuckers. Guys who are into that fetish.

Andrew Schulz

Wait, have you done it?

Jim Norton

No, not my thing. What about Wheelchair I never had, but I don't think I would be inclined not to. I don't, I don't know. To be real honest with you, I've never encountered that. Yeah. But if I had been, it would depend on and what our conversations had been up till then.

Andrew Schulz

Just throwing them legs around.

Jim Norton

Yeah. I don't know if I would like that or not though, you know what I mean? If I, you know, if you got fucking puppet legs, I got to throw

Andrew Schulz

one like a windshield wiper.

Jim Norton

I don't know, I've never encountered that. But I never talked about it either, so I can't. I don't know.

Alex

What about potiphilia? That would be a foot fetish.

Jim Norton

Oh yeah. You know, foot fetish stuff I got into at one point. It's almost like you start to. It's like you run out of things. Like, you know what I mean? Like how much ass worship could I do? Answer is a lot. A whole bunch. But then you start getting into other things and someone says the right trigger word and all of a sudden it becomes a thing. It's very weird Talking the talking I love.

Mark Gagnon

So if a woman just comes and wants to get straight into the sex, do you like that or you need the build up?

Jim Norton

I need the build up.

Mark Gagnon

You need to build up.

Jim Norton

I envy people who are tactile and just like what's in front of them, what they feel is what they like. You know those guys that can just climb on a woman and put their face in her neck and go just pump. I envy that. What an easy life you have to you, my friend. I've never been able to do that. Tweedle these. What if you were getting fucked and he was better than me? Like.

Andrew Schulz

So it's all mental for you?

Jim Norton

Well, almost all mental, yeah. The physical feels good, but it's almost all.

Andrew Schulz

What about mental?

Alex

Cilirophobia. Cilirophilia. That's the soiling of pants. Like peeing pants.

Jim Norton

Peeing pants? Could be. I wouldn't want somebody shitting their pants. That'd be a bit much. That'd be a rough go. That's a rough. That's a rough haul. Somebody pulls down their pants and they're like huh. And it's filled with pudding.

Andrew Schulz

But you like the pee stuff?

Jim Norton

Yeah.

Andrew Schulz

What is exciting about the pee?

Jim Norton

It sounds like me in the mirror with a pistol under my shoes. Who are we? What happened to you, Jim? I don't know. That's a great question, Andrew. I first experienced it as a kid. I don't know And I've told this story before, but like there was this bully I used to blow this kid. He was a bully. I was probably.

Andrew Schulz

Wait, we need more context.

Jim Norton

I gotta come back a little. This was in Edison, New Jersey. And I have a timeframe because of when I was. We moved from Edison to North Brunswick. My first day of school in North Brunswick was Halloween of fourth grade. So I know that anything in Edison that happened was before Halloween in fourth grade grade. So this, this bully I used to have oral sex with and he. Yeah. What? I don't remember how it started. Yeah, but I would blow him in the, like the, the, the hallway in the apartment building. I was probably. Yeah, I was young. It was like first grade. But he was my. He was like a year older than me. He was. It wasn't like he was 51. He was my age.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mark Gagnon

Wait, so were you gay back then?

Jim Norton

I mean. No. At that age? I mean, I certainly would have a hard time selling straigh.

Alex

Your honor, he was my bully.

Jim Norton

Evidence is overwhelming.

Alex

It's a crime of passion.

Jim Norton

That'd be. That'd be a rough one to get across. But. No, but that was again. It was. I definitely liked it though, like, you know what I mean? I enjoyed doing it. Like, so I. My therapist told me I was molested, but I don't see it. Like I felt. I. I showed up for it. You know what I mean? I enjoyed it.

Alex

You arguing with your therapist.

Andrew Schulz

Also funny that like he bullied you. But that wasn't the bullying. I like that part.

Jim Norton

Yeah, that was the bonding. After the beat up. After the beat up. That was the apology. No, he would. But I was terrified of this kid. I remember being really scared of him because I remember him and his friend came out of a building one time and I was so scared I ran and I spelled. I fell and I split my head open. So I have a photo of me with a bandage on my head from October of 73. So I know that by that time we were already active because I have a date stamp on a photo of when I fell and split my head open. But anyway, the pee thing, we were in the public pool and I was at that age where I didn't. Like, I would go underwater and I would suck his dick and I didn't think anybody around the pool could see. Like, I didn't know. Like that's the, that's where you're at. So he peed in my mouth and I didn't care for that. And I came up and I'm like, don't do that again. And I went back down. Is this all real or is it real?

Andrew Schulz

Oh, it's all real.

Jim Norton

It's all real. I know it's is real. I. I mean, trust me.

Andrew Schulz

What are we blowing Alex's mind?

Jim Norton

This would be a weird bit to write. Public. Public pool, 1974. But he peed in my mouth. And I said, don't do that again. And he said he wouldn't, but I went back down.

Andrew Schulz

To me.

Jim Norton

I went back down and he did it again. So I. I learned a real lesson about trust. That was. So anyway, at that age, that was the first time I experienced. But I was young because I didn't think that anyone above the water could see, like, you know what I mean? Like, when you're a kid, you hide. You're like, no one can see me. So that's kind of these weird, vague, murky timestamps I have on when this stuff started happening.

Alex

Do you look at that period of life, like, with grief or like victimization? Do you feel that you were taken advantage of in that moment, or were you just like, oh, I'm a kid being a kid?

Jim Norton

Both. I don't know if it was taken. I don't like to play victim in anything. Like, again, I enjoyed a lot of it. It felt good again. There's a lot. It's murky. I don't remember a lot of it, but the stuff I do remember, I felt good doing. So, you know, I always tell my therapist that I just kind of showed up for it.

Mark Gagnon

And do you think anything happened before then? Cause I'm like, first grade. I don't even think, well, there was a bunch of sucking dick.

Jim Norton

I can count 10 before fourth grade. Like, there was 10 different people in my neighborhood that we were sexual, but we were all sexual together. Then again, back then, there was very little parental supervision. You know, your parents were doing what they were doing. But, yeah, I used to. Oh, my God. These two twins. You're asking about pee smell. These two twins. Twins? No, they weren't twins. They're brother and sister. One was my age, the boy was my age, and the sister was a year older. But for some reason, they both would wet their pants a lot. Like, I don't know what was going on in their house, but they were both pissing their pants a lot. So I would lay behind the bushes and I would get both of them to sit on my face at different times. Cause I like the way it smells. Mouth.

Andrew Schulz

What?

Jim Norton

I'll be appearing in Tampa. See this Is what I say, dude, in Jersey, bro. Jersey's different, bro.

Andrew Schulz

Al, you never had experience like that where like you were peeing on people

Mark Gagnon

or getting weird enough being around y' all with the white boy fun. And this is next level.

Andrew Schulz

This is the most extreme version.

Jim Norton

Yeah.

Alex

The honesty is so admirable.

Jim Norton

Yeah, I do.

Andrew Schulz

Like, yeah, like, how have you. Were you never insecure about sharing it? That's what I've always been like, shocked by you is that like you're around people, especially comedians, who will. And obviously you're fucking proficient at this too. Like, if someone's going to come at you, they better be ready. But like, you never felt like they would use any of this to belittle

Jim Norton

you or it's, you know, people make fun of you for sure. I mean, but you, you, whenever you put something into the stratosphere, you understand that it's going to be used to make fun of you. But I didn't care. I'm not sensitive about it. It's life experience. Like, if it's got a response.

Mark Gagnon

Sensitive?

Jim Norton

What's that?

Mark Gagnon

Like you were never sensitive.

Jim Norton

Maybe coming up, like, you, you know, you, you learn, you. You lose shame. The more you talk about it, the more you own something, the more you talk about, the less shame you have with it.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Jim Norton

Cuz shame is the killer. Like, you know, I mean, it's. It's shame for things. It's self hatred, which again, there was a lot of that mixed in as well. But talking about it and making it funny, I mean, it was like, what? I don't care if they like it. You start to not care because I don't believe anybody. I know all of you have the dirty secret. Everyone has them. I don't care if you have a totally regular marriage. There's something you like that you'd be humiliated if all of us knew. That's the same for every person. The more school teachers I met that wanted to be spanked, the more people I realized were never what you think publicly. You lose shame because you're like, we're all.

Andrew Schulz

And if anything, you're being more honest than everybody else is.

Jim Norton

Yeah, I don't even think I'm doing anything great. Like, it's just. I just like to talk about it and be funny with it. And I don't judge other people for it.

Andrew Schulz

And weirdly, no one seems to judge you about it. That's the thing. And maybe it's your comfort with it. Like when I say nobody, I mean, like, especially in the comedy community, it's Just like, oh, yeah. Jim's into, like, weird shit anyway where there are certain people who, like, hide maybe their deviants.

Jim Norton

Oh, yeah.

Andrew Schulz

And it feels like there's more judgment there because it's like, hey, you're lying.

Jim Norton

Well, we're a gotcha culture. We like to get people. We like to nail people. Gotcha. Gotcha. But if you talk about it and you. You're not, you don't care if they know about it, there's no joy. It's more about people's desire to punish other people for stuff.

Andrew Schulz

So it's not even the thing. It's the desire to punish. The thing is just a tool that they're using 100%.

Jim Norton

It's all fake.

Andrew Schulz

So you're doing, like, the Eminem 8 mile before Eminem 8 mile. Like, you are owning all these things about yourself. So it's like, say whatever you want about me. I already said it.

Jim Norton

Yeah, it was more. It was more Jim Norton, Yellow Brick Road.

Alex

What about tickling? Can no smell. Malagny.

Jim Norton

Interesting fetish. Never my thing. I'm familiar with it as a fetish, but it's never done anything for me to do it. I might have met one woman who was into it. And I don't. Again, I don't think it's crazy, but it's just, you know, it's just too childlike for me. Like, you know what I mean? Like, somebody being dirty, I like, but somebody innocence I don't think is sexy at all.

Alex

Right.

Jim Norton

I like dirty. Dirty like, you know what I mean? Like, locked in a perverted brain with somebody being tickled and coochie cooing them.

Alex

Would you ever do, like, hotlines, like, call up, like, those. There's a name for it. Telephonicophilia.

Jim Norton

Really? Yeah. Oh, all right.

Alex

But, like, I was. I would see these things, like 3am where it's like, call for a sexy phone call or whatever.

Jim Norton

No, I remember, though, there was. It used to be, like, in these. In, like, these magazines this long before the Internet, they would advertise these dirty phone lines. So I remember there was one where you sent in money. Like, I mailed in cash and through the US Mail, and I got a code with a bunch of phone numbers on it mailed back to me. And you would call any one of these phone numbers and one of the women would answer and you had 30 days and talk dirty to you. So I would call at all hours of the morning before. That's when I worked a day job, probably late 80s. And you would call them and different women would answer and you could talk dirty. But a lot of times they were in California, So it was 4am when it was 7am I remember some woman got really mad at me. She's like, you want to talk about that at this time of morning? And I'm just really fucking angry. I'm like, I paid $90 for this month. It was a lot of money back then, man. When you have no money, 90 bucks is a big nut for a month. Yeah. So I was never big on the 900 numbers though, right. I did them, but I. It was never my thing necessarily because it was too much. Ooh, what are you doing, baby? And that performative shit never did anything for me.

Alex

Oh, yeah, because you need it to be real.

Andrew Schulz

It needs to be real.

Jim Norton

It feels. Yeah. It's more of a turn on if it's somebody's.

Andrew Schulz

But what about the prostitutes who, you know, like, their. The goal is for them to not be real, I would imagine. Like, how do you lock into their deviance?

Mark Gagnon

That's why he liked the talking part after.

Jim Norton

That's why I like the talking part. But also I didn't do anything crazy with them. Like, I wasn't. It would. It would have to be something like, if they were advertising, like kind of fetish stuff or, or domination, then I would assume that it was something that they. But anybody. I never wanted somebody going crazy and going like, oh, oh. Because I'm like, look, I know the fuck I'm giving you. It's not worthy of that. You know what I mean? I'm giving you a five here. Let's keep it at a five.

Andrew Schulz

And would you tell them stop if they were doing that?

Jim Norton

No, but I would indicate that I didn't need it like somehow indicated or just talk normal to like, I didn't need Porn star.

Andrew Schulz

Would you rather do the opposite? Would you rather them?

Jim Norton

I didn't want complete honesty. I mean, nobody wants. Nobody wants that face.

Andrew Schulz

Some people like to be berated. They like to be like, oh, you're fucking dick short or someone like that. Me? But you, you wouldn't.

Jim Norton

Oh, stuff.

Andrew Schulz

Oh, you're into the cuck stuff?

Jim Norton

Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Andrew Schulz

Have you ever watched?

Jim Norton

I have. Yeah. Your girl Only with one girlfriend. I did. No, I did it with two girlfriends. One girlfriend I just watched fool around with another girl.

Andrew Schulz

Oh, but that's not.

Jim Norton

But her boyfriend was there and we liked it.

Alex

So the two of you as boyfriends were watching the two girls.

Jim Norton

The two girls together. And then we would each fool around with our, our Own girl. Like we, we didn't swap, but then with one girl, she would. We got escorts twice. And I watched her blow this escort and it was really hot and dirty. But I wanted an escort because I didn't want anybody who would get attached. Like I didn't because it was in my house. So I didn't want somebody who knew where this woman was going to be all the time, but that it hurt the relationship in the end. Like, I realized, like that stuff is so much better talked about because when you see it, real jealousies can creep

Andrew Schulz

in on your part a little bit.

Jim Norton

I became insecure the third time we tried it. Like the rule was whichever one of us wants to stop the experience can stop it without any hesitation. But I indicated I was kind of getting uncomfortable and she got a little annoyed at me. So that kind of blew up into more. But by then I didn't, you know, first of all, I don't blame her for getting annoyed at me. I was cheating and she knew I was cheating. Like, you know what I mean? I was in no position to go like, hey now, you know, easy with that 9 inch penis. Like, you know, I just. But that. But it was the final nail in the coffin for relationship that I was destroying anyway. Yeah. Whoa. I was ruining it.

Alex

And so you never did it again because of that experience, right?

Jim Norton

I've talked about it. I love to talk about it. I love the idea of it. Like, I love when a woman will talk about ex lovers and guys she would rather be fucking. It's hot to me. But so many things in fantasy are okay in fantasy. But in reality life, you know, that's when things get messy.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah. It is interesting, the mental stimulation. Like that's what they would say about like Stephen Hawking still being able to get a boner or whatever like that. Like it is. Yeah. It's not just a purely physical thing. I don't even know if there are that many guys that exist like that who could just like bury their face in a girl's neck.

Jim Norton

And then there is enough of them to where I wish I was one of them. Like, you know, like, I wish I was one of my new girls. Girl.

Andrew Schulz

A new girl, sure. But a girl you've been with forever.

Jim Norton

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You need something.

Andrew Schulz

You've been married for 20 years. You think you're just burying your head in your wife's neck different. No, there needs to be something even

Jim Norton

with a new girl.

Alex

I'm trying my best. I'm TMB right now.

Jim Norton

Dude, are you really Serious?

Alex

Yeah.

Jim Norton

You're so lucky.

Alex

And I do consider myself lucky, to be honest with you.

Jim Norton

You really are. Those guys. Guys that were like, oh, man, I'm too pump Pete. I'm like, oh, man, you should thank God every night for that. Your life is so.

Mark Gagnon

But he's only been one.

Alex

I haven't. I haven't had very much other sexual stimulation, so it's easy.

Jim Norton

One girl. Are you married? Yeah. Oh, you met her really young, fell in love.

Alex

Precisely that.

Jim Norton

That's an interesting life, man. You. You haven't. And you still enjoy the sex.

Mark Gagnon

It's great.

Andrew Schulz

It's an interesting.

Jim Norton

That's. That's a great way to be. Like, that's a healthy. Like, that I envy.

Alex

I think it's partially because I have no other frame of reference, really.

Jim Norton

That's exactly it. Like, if you're raised eating broccoli, that's all you're ever gonna have.

Andrew Schulz

Tastes sweet.

Jim Norton

Yeah, broccoli is delicious. But the minute someone shoves a, you know, dick in your mouth, you're like, wow, broccoli has been lacking. Yes, exactly.

Alex

I feel like. Like an African tribesman.

Andrew Schulz

You know what I mean?

Alex

And, like, I don't need gushers. I don't think about Oreos.

Andrew Schulz

Pepsi.

Alex

Yeah, exactly. I'm just eating El.

Jim Norton

Can you say I love you when you have sex to somebody that you actually love?

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Jim Norton

Yeah.

Alex

That's the whole thing.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Jim Norton

Ah, it must be fun. What do you mean?

Andrew Schulz

Tell us.

Jim Norton

Wait, wait.

Alex

You just asked us. Can you be honest with someone that you're honest with?

Jim Norton

Yeah, sure. But I can't say I love you because it. It. It breaks something. Like, if I love you, I want it to be dirty, and you're talking about other guys you'd rather. And if I just met you, I can say I love you because it's not real. It's flipped.

Alex

This is like the Madonna Horror Complex 100.

Jim Norton

Wait a minute.

Andrew Schulz

Explain this. Explain this. So, like, you're. You do love the person.

Jim Norton

Oh, very much.

Andrew Schulz

Obviously you love your wife, you love your girlfriends, but you're transporting yourself to this, like, dirty version when you're having sex, and that breaks the frame.

Jim Norton

Yeah. So whatever is the. The, like, you know, like, if I was with a. A. A sex worker, I didn't want to call her, like, a. Yeah, you. It wasn't like that. It was more like. I liked it to be kind of nice and like. Oh, like, she's. She's kind of enjoying this and being dirty with me. Like. And then there have been times where I Said I love you. Like, oh, man. There was one, one girl we were having, we would kiss a lot and we were gonna have sex and I didn't. And before I put it in, she's like, I have condoms, if you want, want. And when she said, if you want, I was like. And she was like, all right, if you're ready to be a daddy. And I just put it in and I had sex with him without a condom. I think I told her I loved her. It was so hot.

Andrew Schulz

And did you leave it in?

Jim Norton

Not with her, but I had with a couple of other ones, you know. Yeah, I actually, I actually do like gambling. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Andrew Schulz

Really? You were, you were shooting up the club with prostitutes?

Jim Norton

I, I, I, I shot inside. Yeah, a couple times. Yeah, yeah.

Andrew Schulz

Immediate paranoia afterwards, the day, the next day.

Jim Norton

I think the last time I did that, it's so funny, was this again, these weird frames of reference was, I believe it was at the end of the year in 2011, because I remember afterwards, she and I were sitting around talking and she was, she knew who Patrice was and he was in the hospital at that point. He'd had a stroke, but he was still alive. So I think that was at the end of 2011 that I did, did that. And I saw her a year, 18 months later, you know what I mean? And she was very sexy. I remember I had full unprotected sex with her, told her I loved her when I came inside of her.

Mark Gagnon

And then she had a nine month old kid.

Jim Norton

Well, no, but she was pregnant when I saw her again. Oh, she was pregnant when I saw her again. But it was like, it was a year and a half later and we didn't have sex, we just fooled around a little bit. But she was so honest. She goes, yeah, it's a client. And she goes, he got me pregnant. And I told him I get the abortion for this much money, but he didn't want to do it. And I know how much money he makes. And now he's going to be paying x amount of percent for the next 18 years. So I'm like, I realized like, wow, I would have been in big trouble, but I was very happy she told me that, like, she was very honest about how she got pregnant and with who, not the name of fooling around

Andrew Schulz

with her while she was pregnant.

Jim Norton

Only one time, but I don't think I knew she was when she came over over until she came over. But, you know, again, we had always kind of stayed in touch.

Andrew Schulz

But she came in her then, right?

Jim Norton

No, not the second time, I didn't have sex with her. She was pregnant. Oh, this. This was like, you know, and again, 2012, maybe. I saw her. We just had oral sex. I didn't. I didn't have sex with her. I've never been into pregnancy. Like, the. I mean, the idea of pregnancy, some guys fetishize it. I certainly didn't want it in my life, as is pretty obvious. I'm like, we're gonna avoid that at all costs. But I never like. A lot of guys like pregnant women. They like lactating, and I just want. That's not my thing.

Alex

Yeah, I knew a dude that would, like, find women on Craigslist and buy their breast milk, and he was like, that was my favorite thing. And he's like, if you paid, like, an extra, like, thousand bucks, they would let you rip it from the tap. And that was like, his thing. He loved it.

Andrew Schulz

Jesus.

Jim Norton

What else did he enjoy doing? Like, taking toys from kids. That's basically taking a kid's lunch for all of my dirtiness. I've never wanted to steal a kid's lunch. Hey, I'm gonna jerk off and eat those lunchables. Kids screaming the other room crazy. Yeah, that's never been my thing.

Alex

With your level of profile, but also, like, being so public with certain levels of deviance, did you have people reaching out to you that maybe had some type of profile themselves that were like, hey, keep this between us. Like, I would love to explore this thing with you.

Jim Norton

No, I wish I did. Really? No, man, no. No. Other people in public life? Never. I mean, you know, there was women in porn who I got to know, and they would like me because I didn't talk about them like, they were punchline. Like, I like people in porn. I respect it. It's a fucking hard job, man. You know, guys, I've been on porn sets, and I've hosted the AVN Awards twice. And the first time I hosted was with. It was January of 04 with Jenna Jameson. And so I got to go to Jenna's shoot, and it was like a fucking craft services. It was like any film set you're on, and then you go one level lower, and it's like, there's a crew and there's a director, but, you know, it's kind of lower budget. And then I went and saw, like, with the. Just what guy with a camera filming a little woman? And you see the different levels. But that's a hard job, man.

Alex

Porn.

Jim Norton

Porn is really difficult, like, so to. To have sex in front of a Room full of people with an unsexy atmosphere. You know what I mean? This is a director. That's why you hear dumb music, but you don't hear the director. Oh, come on, let's go look this way a little bit more. I'm gonna need the pop. I'm gonna need the pop. And you're like, I don't know how these guys stay hard or how these women stay into it. It's fucking crazy. So I've always respected people in that business, so they kind of, they tended to like me because I didn't think they were you. Like, like, I didn't look at them like that.

Andrew Schulz

Right.

Jim Norton

And I always hate people who do because it's like you jerk off looking at them.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah. So who are you?

Jim Norton

Who the are you? You with your dumpy spouse. Look at her. She's a, she married a lady with skin tags on her neck. You. I always hated that attitude about, you know what I mean? They always deserved a certain level of respect that they didn't get, I thought.

Andrew Schulz

Right, right.

Mark Gagnon

What about, like, industry people? Do they feel comfortable opening up to you and telling, Telling you about their stuff?

Jim Norton

Industry as in the business we're in? No, not at all.

Mark Gagnon

It's surprising.

Jim Norton

No.

Andrew Schulz

Really? There wasn't, like, more honesty around you because you're so.

Jim Norton

Oh, maybe comedians. Sure. Maybe friends. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That type of stuff. Sure. But I mean, like, as far as at large. No, I think it made people a little uncomfortable. You think you were making people uncomfortable at certain points? Sure. Like, certain.

Andrew Schulz

Early on.

Jim Norton

Yeah. Or even when you're on the radio, like, people in the just don't want to hear that. Like, you know what I mean? It's weird to hear some of that stuff. You know what I mean? Like, to me, it's not weird. I, I, none of it's weird at all.

Andrew Schulz

Can we talk about how insane the radio run was?

Jim Norton

A little.

Andrew Schulz

Because, I don't know, it's just as I've, like, been in the business for a while, there's, like, these ebbs and flows with certain things, and, like, when it's happening in the moment, it feels like the biggest thing that could ever exist.

Jim Norton

Yes.

Andrew Schulz

And it's interesting how, like, five, ten years could go away. And it's not that people forget that it happened. Right. But, like, it doesn't have that same, you know, velocity. It doesn't have that same, like, illumination.

Jim Norton

Not at all. Yeah.

Andrew Schulz

It is a kind of crazy experience because I remember Opie and Anthony especially, like, in this part of America, having Like a stranglehold on culture.

Jim Norton

Yeah.

Andrew Schulz

And like, just insane. Like, you even think about, like, early things that pop. Certain guys. Definitely you. But like Bill Burr's thing in Philly. Do you know that thing where he, like, was ripping? That's an Opie and Anthony show.

Jim Norton

I was on that show.

Andrew Schulz

You were on that show.

Jim Norton

I remember it happened. Yeah. And I remember it happened to him in Cleveland, too. And Bill.

Andrew Schulz

Because was Bill frequently on this was.

Jim Norton

Right. We were the first show on. We were the first, like, show of our kind on satellite, which was October of 2004, whereas Stern came on satellite January of 06. So we were there for about 14 months before. And this was only when XM and Sirius were separate. So we had a. We started small. We had to rebuild our audience from when we got fired. But it was a very kind of hardcore show early on. And Bill would be on the satellite show all the time. But then we started. We got this weird split deal, which is when we were doing five hours a day where we would do the first three hours on regular radio and satellite together. And then the final two hours we would walk down the street, we would broadcast walking down 57th street, go back to the XM studios, do the final two hours on XM alone. So when the regular radio audience started to hear us, they knew me, they knew Opie and Anthony. They didn't know Bill because Bill wasn't famous then, and only the satellite audience knew him. So a lot of these audiences and these traveling virus shows were from terrestrial radio, this new KROC show we were doing. So they started booing Bill. They booed Domera. I think they booed, like, Jimmy Schubert, like, real Philly guys. And Bill just did his legendary rant. And they eventually turned it around. It was incredible.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Jim Norton

So in Cleveland, they tried doing the same thing to him. And I remember he was having a meltdown. He was so fucking pissed off that they were just booing him. And I remember talking to him and we were in the hotel room and it was like you did something amazing and they're just trying to recreate it. Like, they don't hate you.

Andrew Schulz

They heard about the moment and they want that to happen.

Jim Norton

They wanted him to do it in Cleveland. Like, they. They understood that the moment was so great, what he had done. Organic.

Andrew Schulz

That's one of the first viral stand up clips.

Jim Norton

It really is.

Andrew Schulz

It's like Russell Peters. Yeah. And Bill Burr.

Jim Norton

Yeah, that. That clip, I remember it was shot, like, with like a. Not a very good camera.

Andrew Schulz

It looked like it was from the audience?

Jim Norton

Yeah, I believe it was.

Andrew Schulz

I think it's multiple phones.

Jim Norton

Oh, was it?

Andrew Schulz

There's a part where there's no video. From what I remember, it's just audio.

Jim Norton

And then a couple people spliced together other angles from the crowd. Oh, they did. Okay.

Andrew Schulz

Okay. So you guys get fired. So you're on regular radio. Radio.

Jim Norton

Yeah. In like 20 markets. Yeah.

Andrew Schulz

Okay. And would that be 20 markets? Would that be huge? Like, is that decent?

Jim Norton

Like, we were on New York for radio standards, I'm saying it's good size for FM for what we were doing. I mean, Rush Limbaugh was on probably 2 or 300. Howard was on what, probably 50 or more. He was big. Howard was always bigger.

Andrew Schulz

Okay.

Jim Norton

But Ona had a reputation. They had been fired in Boston. Boston. You know what I mean? It was like.

Andrew Schulz

It seems like the radio guys that got this like, escape velocity, because Charlemagne's the same thing. Like he got fired from a bunch of different markets, then finds a home that's going to support them and try and see you later. Same thing with Howard. Same thing with you guys. So you guys get fired from regular radio?

Jim Norton

Yes.

Andrew Schulz

What happened?

Alex

Well, is that the sex with Sam thing?

Jim Norton

Sex for Sam? Yeah, it was the Sam. The Sam was Sam out of. They sponsored this thing that OA would do every year where people go around and have sex in all these weird places in New York. And if you had sex, you would get points. And if you had anal, it was a two point conversion. And they would have a spotter. Yes, they would have a spotter from the show go. Whether it was a producer or a video guy, just to watch the couple and make sure they were having sex and not lying. And they would call in right now we're, you know, we're in the fucking. We're in the dressing room in Macy's and he's having anal weather. Like it was that type stuff.

Andrew Schulz

So this is on regular radio, the terrestrial radio.

Jim Norton

Yeah.

Andrew Schulz

Just to put things in perspective, like so crazy, the things that people get, and I hate the word like triggered or offended. I was just like so overused. But like, culturally now I feel like there we would be way more sensitive to something. There's like no way this could happen. Yes. We can say certain words now.

Jim Norton

Yeah.

Andrew Schulz

But actual action like this hijinks, the radio hijinks happening back in the day, far more insane than anything happening right now.

Jim Norton

It's was. It was crazy. And they were having sex all over the city. And I didn't.

Andrew Schulz

Sam Adams sponsored it.

Jim Norton

They sponsored It.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah, a major beer company.

Jim Norton

They would sponsor the guy. The head of the company would always come in. He was. Because they were on an O. Anda was massive in Boston too. So he was from Boston. So I didn't go out. I was not a spotter. I wouldn't go out and do it because I guess it was a. Sometime 2001, maybe worth. You enjoy it. Jim.

Andrew Schulz

Jim, you there?

Jim Norton

Get out of there. Shut up. Guys, shut up. No, like, get out of there, guys. But no, me and I, we had been. Lewis Black and I had been arrested for the radio show probably a year before. We were on this bus called the Board. It's a. You know.

Andrew Schulz

What happened with the arrest?

Jim Norton

Well, there was a company that came in. This is. Again, we were on WNEW in the afternoon. It was an afternoon show. And these people came in and they were driving around with a bus with giant windows and half naked girls, like topless girls promoting loading this, the voyeur bus. So Lewis Black, myself and a couple guys from the radio show get on the bus and we're just kind of going around with them as they drive through seasonal rush hour traffic in. In December of 2001.

Alex

And that's what the city needed.

Jim Norton

It was amazing. Giuliani was mayor. Yeah, they needed a break. But there was all these naked girls just showing their stop and Frisco. But we. So Louis and I were calling in the radio show, just kind of updating them with what was going on. And apparently Clinton, he had a route that was mapped off President Clinton. And we got too close to his route. So they pulled us over like CNN had gotten on the bus and done a live report. And we went on to 6th Avenue to go back to the studio. And there was probably like 12 cop cars, all these white shirt, like fucking cops. Like, you know, high ranking cops. And they arrested us because we were getting too close to Clinton's marked route.

Alex

They're afraid Clinton was gonna come on or the end.

Jim Norton

They'll ruin every dress on the bus. So they arrested us and we went down to the tombs and spent 27 hours in jail just for being near his route. For being. No, no, for being on the bus. But they didn't know what to charge us with. They didn't know. So the prosecutor tried to charge us with promotion of the lewdness of a body. That was the truth charge. And the judge threw it out immediately. He said, you're wasting everybody's time. To the prosecutor. But it was just a lesson. And I don't ever want to get arrested again.

Andrew Schulz

Spent some time in the tombs, man.

Jim Norton

27 hours. I had to. And one of the guys told me to. He goes, you got to take toilet paper and roll it up and shove it in your.

Andrew Schulz

To stop the.

Jim Norton

Stop from. And I thanked him very much. Transformative moment in your life.

Alex

You're like, I do that anyway.

Jim Norton

But anyway, that taught me never to get arrested. So when they did sex for Sam, I didn't go out. So anyway, there was a couple. One of the locations they picked was. Was St. Patrick Cathedral. And our producer at the time, or our associate producer was going, don't do it, don't with. And he was right. Because there was a couple that had anal in one of the. Either pews or I forget where it was.

Andrew Schulz

Not the first time.

Jim Norton

Not. What's that? Come on.

Alex

The church is going to come for you, bro. Just watch.

Jim Norton

Might be a little familiarity with that.

Andrew Schulz

Right?

Jim Norton

It was definitely not the first. It was. It was probably the first time that the person having it done wasn't lisping going, what's happening?

Andrew Schulz

There'll be no consensual anal in this church.

Jim Norton

Yeah. So anyway, there was an arrest made and then the Catholic League, blah, blah, blah, came after the. The show. Oh, and got it.

Andrew Schulz

You had the religious institution come after the show. That's a little different than you have some like fledgling business that's busting around the.

Jim Norton

Oh, yeah, this was.

Alex

You have the power of God.

Jim Norton

They were very angry and in fairness, we shouldn't have been fired. But they suspended the show. This was like a few months into a three year deal and I was finally getting paid and my salary was supposed to double. At the time, I was making 52 grand a year, like a grand grand a week. And it was just about to double to 100 grand. And we got kicked off the air before.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah. You already spent that money too.

Jim Norton

I just moved into New York. I. Dude, I was paying. I was living in New Jersey with Jim Florentine and his girlfriend. Three of us were splitting $900 rent. We had fucking black mold on the walls. It was a shithole. So we move into New York because the prices are a little lower now because of 911. A lot of prices went down after 9. 11.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Jim Norton

So I got my own apartment. 2,400 bucks a month. I couldn't. I'm like, I'll be fine.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Jim Norton

We're kicked off the air and I remember looking up at my. I'm like, I'm going to throw myself out the 22nd floor. I was like. I was really. I was like, I'm done. My life is getting good. I'm starting to sell theaters and it's fucking gone. I was so. I was suicidal. But anyway, we got kicked off. Opie and Anthony got paid for the whole time.

Andrew Schulz

Did you guys get paid?

Jim Norton

I got paid for six months and that was it. But they didn't have to pay me because I didn't. I hadn't. The contract hadn't been done yet.

Andrew Schulz

But they did the right thing.

Jim Norton

They did the right thing for me and they let me go on other shows. That's why I love Ron and Fez so much. Because they would always have me on back then.

Andrew Schulz

Got it.

Jim Norton

Got it. All these shows would have me on to promote my shows because they knew I didn't, you know, they knew I was just the fucking. The third wheel.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Jim Norton

Guy. I didn't come up with this.

Mark Gagnon

This is such a full circle moment. So I grew up on like hot 97bls. A little C100.

Jim Norton

Yeah. Star wild.

Mark Gagnon

Yeah. I missed Obie and Anthony. But I remember this story. And that inspired a time in my life where I just started having sex in public in different places.

Jim Norton

W story to God. Really.

Alex

Oh, Never meet your heroes.

Jim Norton

Look at that.

Alex

Isn't that beautiful?

Jim Norton

And I did it in the church. Did you really?

Alex

Alex?

Mark Gagnon

Sorry.

Andrew Schulz

Well, here goes the show. Yeah.

Jim Norton

Now the church. Was it empty?

Mark Gagnon

Yeah, it was.

Jim Norton

Oh, all right. Good for you.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Jim Norton

So happy. I'm so happy. Six degree details. Yeah.

Andrew Schulz

Exactly how many people are in there?

Jim Norton

Yeah, but that's. That's six degrees of separation. Oh, nice.

Alex

Were you ever a connoisseur of public sex?

Andrew Schulz

No, never.

Alex

Never. A bathroom stall?

Jim Norton

Occasionally the idea of it. But I like private and dirty.

Mark Gagnon

But when you hooked up with the escorts, wasn't that like in the car?

Andrew Schulz

Brought them back?

Jim Norton

Yeah, but I would find a desolate spot like, you know, I mean I like. Again, I liked private and just one on one. I was never into group things or that was never my thing, guys.

Andrew Schulz

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Jim Norton

Yeah.

Andrew Schulz

Okay. Is this. Does this begin like the heyday of Opie and Anthony?

Jim Norton

Yeah, I mean, they were big before, though. They were big before I came on board. I mean, before I came on, that was already. It was. But it was only on in New York. Hoping Anthony was only on in New York York. And eventually we got syndicated to Philly. But by then I was on the show.

Andrew Schulz

Is it true that Howard Stern said that you guys weren't allowed to talk about him?

Jim Norton

Yeah, at one point he did. It was. I always thought Howard handled Opie and Anthony wrong because he knew that they were a funny show. And he's like, he was Accusing them of ripping him off. And they were definitely influenced by him.

Andrew Schulz

Everybody was.

Jim Norton

And they would say it, Opie would say it, Ant would say it. But I always thought he should have looked at those guys as, hey, these guys are funny. Give them a shot. And they would have worshiped him. Like, they really respected Howard.

Andrew Schulz

Of course. Yeah.

Jim Norton

But it just got so combative, nasty and back and forth and, you know, our show and those guys were not afraid of any show at all. Like, it was brutal and there was no one was going to say anything about Open Eth without a horrible response.

Andrew Schulz

So. What do you mean? So, like you guys are clocking every other radio show that's talking shit and then you're immediately hammering back.

Jim Norton

You would get word and if Howard talked about you. Absolutely. No, because he was the biggest, of course. But yeah, at one point they weren't even allowed to. I remember when Nicole and Nicole Smith had a show and her lover was Howard K. Stern. And they couldn't even say his name, Howard K. Stern, because the guy down the hall, Al, would dump out. He had a dump button on live radio, in case you said one of the FCC violations. So he would dump out every time they would say it. So they had to reference around it. But yeah, that was at the end of the terrestrial industrial run that, that he. He said that they couldn't talk about him.

Andrew Schulz

Wow. What was the. What do you think was the event that catapulted the show?

Jim Norton

I mean, Sex for Sam made it pretty legendary. Them getting fired in Boston before I even came on made it legendary.

Andrew Schulz

What about with you guys at the. During the Serious Run?

Jim Norton

Because we had some funny moments at. At Sirius xm, like the. Like With. With the culture following, like John Valby, who's one of my favorite comics of all time, Dr. Dirty. He would play dirty piano. He was prolific and he was brutal. But we, we were in the building above the Steinway piano place. That was our building. We were on the fifth floor, I think, and Steinway was downstairs. So he went into the Steinway thing because he's an accomplished pianist and he played in this beautiful Steinway store. He started singing his filthy songs at full volume, you know, eater, pussy, grabber, test. And they. When we. And they threw him out of the store. But that type of stuff got fans like, you don't know what's going to happen on this show and you don't know where it's going to happen. That began. And cherry darts.

Andrew Schulz

Cherry darts, it was.

Jim Norton

A bunch of girls would come in and they were. They Would like, you would have a cherry and they would put whipped cream in their assholes. And you would throw the cherry to see who could get closest to the asshole. And whoever did would win whatever the prize was.

Alex

Got to eat the cherry.

Jim Norton

Yeah, that was the winner. Yeah, but I think I ate all the cherries, sweet boy. But like, stuff like that, like all this stuff you couldn't do on regular radio, which we then did on xm.

Alex

It's almost like, I'm sure you see streaming now and how these streamers will go out into real life and like, they'll interface with people. You guys are kind of doing like an early version of that where this guy's going to the Steinway store and interfacing with real employees that are now on the radio kicking him out.

Jim Norton

When we, when we did the walkover, which was again, the technology then was so weird. It was, how the fuck could you,

Andrew Schulz

you guys do it?

Jim Norton

Well, we had portable units and we would push a shopping cart with equipment in it.

Andrew Schulz

Hilarious.

Jim Norton

From 57th Street Kroc to 57th street, the Steinway Building. It was about a two block walk. And the group of listeners would come and follow us and interact with us and meet with us. And Voss would do comedy. We would have Voss because Voss is fearless. Like, he's the rottenest man in the business. He's a mean little bastard.

Andrew Schulz

He's also the sweetest.

Jim Norton

So he's the nicest guy behind your back. This is Rich Voss. He's a complete piece of shit when you're in the room. And he's nice when you leave the room. He's like. He's really fun.

Andrew Schulz

He's the best.

Jim Norton

He's the epitome of like. He also.

Andrew Schulz

He takes a joke. Well, this is something. There's a lot of guys who could dish it out. The second they start getting made fun of, they get all fucking sensitive.

Jim Norton

Yes, Voss likes it. Voss's problem is he's greedy. So he'll always punch himself out. And the key with Voss is to just cover up and take the beating. Because when he's giving you a beating, it's relentless.

Andrew Schulz

It gets momentum, momentum, it's over.

Jim Norton

He gets momentum and his little legs start going downhill. And you're in deep trouble, bro.

Andrew Schulz

There's a great clip of you guys. Collins on. I wonder if it's Jim and Sam or your own opening. But Collins on. He's wearing like a Purdue something shirt.

Alex

A Boilermakers.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah, Purdue Boilermaker shirt. And like, Colin starts going. And you guys know that Voss is coming on the show. And Colin's like, voss, I can't do. I can't do a good column. Be. How long do you think before Voss makes a joke about this shirt?

Jim Norton

How long? What do you think?

Andrew Schulz

He's like, yeah, something. You eat chicken. You eat a lot of chicken, Whatever.

Jim Norton

Like that.

Andrew Schulz

Like, you guys call out what's going to happen. Voss walks in the room and then what is the first?

Alex

Immediately sits down and goes, are you doing colleges again?

Andrew Schulz

He hits one, he hits another, right? And then he does a third, and it doesn't land. And then literally Khan goes, see, that's your problem. You're too greedy.

Jim Norton

He had a stage every time. They were my podcast. A couple. The people's favorite episodes of my podcast are when Anthony comes on or when Voss and Colin are on.

Andrew Schulz

The one where Voss is on and Colin's on and you're there and you. You go, my dad once said. And Voss just goes, less teeth.

Jim Norton

And you.

Andrew Schulz

It flew over your head. You missed it.

Jim Norton

I think when he said it, I think for. I know for a second, I was like. I couldn't believe he had just said that too. Because I'm hard to shock with a mean joke. And it was. It's such a funny. I'm like, you can't not love that joke. It was one of the meanest things anybody's ever done. It was such a barbaric, rotten thing to say. So Voss is. Yeah, Voss is like a guy who really is. And he's fearless. Rich is fucking fearless. And he would go on and we would mic him, and he would go into these places and do I forget

Andrew Schulz

what we call stand up in a diner, Stand up on a bus and just start it. Yeah.

Jim Norton

Club soda. Kenny would go, ladies and gentlemen, gentleman Rich Voss. And he would just walk in and start working the crowd. And people, you know, they didn't want to make of it. They hated it. And we would walk over and then finish our show at xm. But it was like that. The homeless shopping spree, stuff like that, where they would get all these homeless people and just invade a mall and a thousand listeners would show up. But they treated the homeless people well. They would buy them clothes, buy them shoes. And the homeless guys were like celebrities on the.

Andrew Schulz

On the show.

Jim Norton

Yeah, they were loved. Like, we would joke with them, but they were really treated well and people would spend a lot of money on them. And then once XM and Sirius merged, they shut a lot of that down.

Andrew Schulz

The antics.

Jim Norton

Yeah, they wouldn't let any more nude girls in the. Oh, wow. Is there a video of us doing this?

Andrew Schulz

Oh, wow.

Jim Norton

Please welcome Richard Voss.

Andrew Schulz

What's up?

Jim Norton

Yeah, hey, how we doing? It's good to see you guys. We're good to do a little show because my career is not going. This is how pathetic my life is.

Andrew Schulz

Got his head.

Jim Norton

I owe my 8 year old $6 for Girl Scout cookies. And I'm dodging her. She calls me and tries to disguise her voice, but I know it's her to go. Hello, is Daddy home? Not bad, sir. I'm doing it so you can watch. Give me a few minutes.

Andrew Schulz

All right. What's your name? Newman.

Jim Norton

Are you two married?

Andrew Schulz

How?

Jim Norton

Unfortunately. I got a car and I'm not like the black guys. I'll eat well. Anyhow, don't get upset, all right? Turn on bet, Comic View and watch black comics tricks white people for an hour. All right? People crazy. They pay taxes. You know what I'm saying? We had the girl turn their back on me. What country are you guys from? Where are you guys from? Oklahoma. There's an nice little Oklahoma pub he might want to go to on 168th in Amsterdam. It's called Run, Whitey, Run. I'm killing.

Andrew Schulz

They're loving me.

Alex

Oh, that's so funny.

Jim Norton

He's fearless. I mean, he was just going to start working the crowd. He didn't care.

Alex

Yeah, I mean, you've seen him go up. I think it was Comic View or Def Jam.

Andrew Schulz

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jim Norton

I was at that taping. He was the first white guy in Def Jam. Yeah, I was at that.

Andrew Schulz

You were at the taping?

Jim Norton

He was at that taping. Yeah. Voss and I have been friends since 1990.

Andrew Schulz

So. Okay, when you're going, what are you thinking? Are you going like, this is going to be hilarious, or are you going like, I got to support my boy.

Jim Norton

You're rooting for him. I want him. Because Rich was the white comic who could work all the black rooms and, like, do really well and be funny.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Jim Norton

And I think Steve Harvey was hosting that episode. And Rich went up and he did great. Like you, he had a good set. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Voss was always. But he's the only comic. He's the first comic my parents met that they didn't like. They loved every comedian, but Voss makes the worst first impression. He's an awful first impression. They loved him after that. But the first time they met him, they were like, he's not a very nice person.

Andrew Schulz

What do you say to your parents?

Jim Norton

I don't know. It was just him. He's just sarcastic, like, you know what I mean? He's lucky he's working. Like, the first time I met him, I fucking didn't like him. I was doing a gig with him and Vinnie Brand and it was we. I was getting 50 bucks to MC and I used to love when shows would get canceled because I was so scared to perform.

Andrew Schulz

Oh, wow.

Jim Norton

So when they got canceled, I was like, oh, good, I don't have to do it. But I tried. And we all got paid 50 bucks, which is all I was supposed to make. And Voss goes, and don't think we don't know that you're getting full pay and we're not. I was like, all right, fuck this guy. What a dick. He was just an asshole. And no one likes him when they first meet him.

Andrew Schulz

So maybe I just knew what to expect.

Jim Norton

I've always loved Rich just for laughs.

Mark Gagnon

I think that was the first place I met.

Andrew Schulz

In Montreal.

Mark Gagnon

Yeah, in Montreal. Yeah.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Mark Gagnon

And then like I'm his full time videographer at the time. I come in the green room and he just starts ripping on me before hello.

Jim Norton

And anything.

Mark Gagnon

I forgot the jokes, something, watermelon, chicken, something, whatever.

Jim Norton

Just gives me a big hug.

Andrew Schulz

What's up, bro?

Jim Norton

It's just hilarious.

Mark Gagnon

He had the whole green room just cracking.

Jim Norton

It's hard to be mad at him. Like he's just. Because he really is just like a little machine gun. A rotten little machine gun who just fires at everybody.

Andrew Schulz

And he's always clocking like, Mark got hit by a classic boss line. Oh, the other day.

Jim Norton

Yeah, yeah.

Andrew Schulz

This is a classic. This is Mark Norman.

Alex

No, we were at the Cellar and like he just like came around the table and just immediately on the energy, just like, oh, what you guys, what you guys chatting about? And then he's talking with someone and then I try to chime in the conversation. He goes, yeah, yeah. This conversation for headliners.

Andrew Schulz

Did he take out the dollar and ask you to get him a coffee?

Jim Norton

Yeah. How long are you doing comedy? Four years. Get me a coffee. Rubs everyone the wrong way. But I.

Alex

The reputation preceded him, so I already knew.

Andrew Schulz

That's the thing for me, I was

Alex

honored in a way. Yeah. I was like, oh, I get the whole show.

Andrew Schulz

Amazing.

Jim Norton

I didn't know. I'm like, who is this reform crackhead with a fucking ponytail? It was awful. Like, I knew he was. We all knew Rich. He was headlining back, you know, even when I was new.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Jim Norton

But you know, he was a guy who would on you in person. But he was not a sneak. Like he would always treat you well when it mattered, behind your back. You know what I mean? So I love. He's one of my closest friends.

Andrew Schulz

There's a. Okay, so during that break, like, when you guys get fired, you guys create this show, which is the show that, like, is my kind of, like, entire New York understanding of comedy and identity, which is, like, tough crowd. Which is, to me, it felt always. And I imagine this was, like, the. The inspiration for it, but, like, the back table at the Cellar.

Jim Norton

Yes, it was.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah, that's the idea. It's like, Colin Quinn is hosting it. You're on it. Patrice is on it. Vault, and there's a bunch of other comic. And Keith is on it. Geraldo's killing on it, right?

Jim Norton

Yeah, he's great.

Andrew Schulz

And. But, like, to me, that was always the idea. Like, I grew up in the East Village. I would go to the Cellar as a kid, like, And I was under. Like, I understood you guys when I was getting into comedy, and the heyday for me, for New York comedy was you guys at the back table, and I kind of was, like, at the tail end of it. So I kind of just came in observing it.

Jim Norton

Yeah.

Andrew Schulz

You know, but, like, watching you guys just absolutely beat on each other was, like, a true joy for a young comic. And, like, I feel now maybe people are, like, a little bit separate. Maybe they're a little kinder in person, but I don't know what it was. But you guys, for whatever reason, it just felt like best friends in the back of the school bus just ripping each other apart. And I don't know. Something has changed. I don't know what it is.

Jim Norton

I think it's because, like, now being wounded is a rung in the ladder to climb, or we're pointing out when someone says something that's not appropriate. Appropriate. That scolding culture has become a way of climbing the ladder.

Andrew Schulz

Oh, you can get points for. On other comics, but publicly or for

Jim Norton

being, like, if they say something really rotten to you, you go out and you go.

Andrew Schulz

And he was so mean to me. Yeah, you see that a lot of times, like, comics, like, talking about how another comedian was mean to them at a comedy club or something like that. And that was the culture that I kind of saw and really admired and thought was the most awesome thing coming

Jim Norton

up, and just handle it with that person. Person. Like, again, we're talking about just guys saying mean things. But you have to be friends, too. Like, we were all friends.

Andrew Schulz

Like, I think that's the difference. I think a lot of people now have, like, made it in different ways and they're all going to the seller. But they didn't really come up together through open mics, through hell gigs, and built that camaraderie where you could just rip somebody apart and it's okay.

Jim Norton

Yeah.

Andrew Schulz

It feels personal now. Maybe it.

Jim Norton

It does. And. And I think that everyone feels like there's more at stake with everything you say. Like, my first gig with Keith Robinson was a. It was a place called Casio tools in Wayne, New Jersey. And it probably 1991, and I was opening, Keith was featuring, and Jim Brewer closed. And I think that was my first time meeting Brewer.

Andrew Schulz

Great storyteller, by the way.

Jim Norton

Jim Brewer is the. The fact that people will conf. There's certain people who don't like his political views. I don't care about them at all. Jim Brewer is a very. He's a great comic and he's a. One of the best storytellers.

Andrew Schulz

If you just hang out with him. Like, we did a show, like it was in Europe or Iceland or something. We were randomly together.

Jim Norton

Yeah.

Andrew Schulz

On this thing. And he was just like, chopping it up backstage and like, him telling a story, he will act out each person in the story. His like, face will transform into these different characters. Like, it's unbelievable.

Jim Norton

He is. It's a gift. And like, people who think he's not a good comic because they're by your cr. He's a. No, no, no. He's good and he's amazing. He was. I've done radio with him for years, and I would just sit there and watch him talk for an hour. But it was interesting, it was funny, and it was. I mean, me, I'm a terrible. And I've talked about this. I'm just not a good storyteller. I'm just. I've never been good. My jokes were fast and they just move different because. No. I hold no one's interest. I really don't. He's done a pretty good job today,

Andrew Schulz

I just wanna say.

Jim Norton

But Jim Brewer has a gift for storytelling. So anyway, Keith bombed. I bombed. And Brewer fucking murdered in this horrible Casio Tools gig. But that's how long I know these. These guys. Yeah. Me and Patrice. Our first gig with Patrice was a college where for this guy, Jamie Ducan, it was in a nooner, an afternoon gig. And. Oh, yeah, that's. That's probably 2007 maybe. We did this antisocial tour. It was. I would host it and we would have Bill. We would have a tell. And Brewer or Artie did them. Stanhope did a couple.

Andrew Schulz

Sorry I cut you off on a story about Patrice, sir.

Jim Norton

Oh, that's okay. I would say the first gig I did with him was a. It was a college, and I bombed hosting Patrice, I think Jamie Ducat was bringing in from Boston. So he was, like, high on Patrice. Patrice bombed as a feature. I had a zero. I had a zero. Patrice might have had a two. And then this guy, Dom Fig, went on and completely bombed worse than both of us. And I had to drop Patrice back off in the city. And he was just kind of on me the whole time. And my stage presence and the way I talked, I'm like, you. I'm like, who is this? I didn't know him at all.

Andrew Schulz

That was the first time.

Jim Norton

Another awful first impression. Who likes this person? I'm like, you bombed too stupid. He's like, yeah, he thought he actually did really well. So he was also delusional.

Alex

Yeah.

Jim Norton

But, like, when you come up like that and you, you know, you're comfortable being mean to each other, it's just your friends, you love each other.

Andrew Schulz

Other. That's the relationship I've always had with my friends.

Jim Norton

Yes.

Andrew Schulz

And, like, the comedians that I kind of came up with. But again, it was. It was a different, like, rite of passage. Because I remember with you guys, anybody who sat down at the table, you're going to get it.

Jim Norton

Yeah.

Andrew Schulz

There's no passive observers at the table. Back in the day at the Cellar.

Jim Norton

No. And that's the worst sound you could hear was Keith Robinson, whose laugh is just. It's very rare that a laugh makes you feel bad, but Keith has a laugh.

Andrew Schulz

Oh, dude.

Jim Norton

It's just, you know, it's bad news. Like, when you're walking in and they don't be sitting there and you'd hear, you're like, oh, I'm not ready. I know it's gonna be ugly.

Andrew Schulz

Do you remember some of the biggest slams that people had?

Jim Norton

Like, I've heard lore the biggest one and is. Was. I mean, we gave Bill Burrought a savaging one time because we found out he was doing comedy on a bus for the World Series tickets. He was. I think it was a World Series. It might have been 2001. I don't remember remember. Or maybe no. It might be one of the later Yankee runs. I just don't remember. But I don't remember what was said. But I remember it was probably a 45 minute savage beating of Bill and everybody was in on it. It was like one of those.

Andrew Schulz

What were you guys saying.

Jim Norton

They were just mocking. I don't remember any of the jokes. I just remember the fact that it's weird to see Bill just sit there and have nothing to. Because Bill's so funny. Feels good and fast. And also very mean when he wants to be. And it was just no defense. I mean. You know what I mean? There was no defense. You're doing comedy on a bus.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Jim Norton

And there's nothing you can say about it, but there was a guy named Eddie.

Andrew Schulz

Boss was like, what's the gig?

Jim Norton

And. And there was a guy named Eddie, and him and Patrice were going back and forth, and Patrice was destroying him.

Andrew Schulz

Eddie who ift.

Jim Norton

Yeah, yeah. And I like Eddie, and I'm sure he's fine with this at that point, but, you know, we all got a beating, and it was Eddie's turn.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Jim Norton

So it was. So it was such a bad beating that none of us even. Even chimed in. There was a lot of guys there, too. I was there. Voss was there. Bill might have been there. It was just a bunch of guys watching this beat. This. This. This mauling and really enjoying it. And I remember Eddie just got mad, and he goes, yeah, well, fuck you. I do colleges. You don't do colleges. And Voss goes, yeah, you do colleges. You do pu. Because you stink. And that might be one of the purely most perfect things I've ever said, I've ever seen. Said to level a guy that was perfection. That a perfect. A perfect line.

Andrew Schulz

What was your relationship like with Patrice?

Jim Norton

I loved him. I mean, he was my friend. He was just, you know, to me, he was just my. You know, everyone knew he was the funniest guy.

Andrew Schulz

Like, he's the funniest.

Jim Norton

He was the funniest, meanest guy.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Jim Norton

But he also would laugh, and he could take a joke, and he could take a beating.

Andrew Schulz

Who gave him the best beatings?

Jim Norton

It's. It's hard to say. All of us, because he was. He told me. He gave me a good compliment at one time. He came in. There was a big guy who came in, and Patrice just started on him because everybody was afraid of the guy.

Andrew Schulz

Can we say who it was?

Jim Norton

I don't know. It was a stranger. It was a stranger. It wasn't a comedian. Yeah. Like a guy who was mentally off.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Jim Norton

And. And I remember saying to him something about, like, you just did that because you wanted that guy to think that you weren't afraid of him and that you there. So I was just on him a little bit, and he said, you the use. You're the only. Only one that picks out my phoniness. And it made me feel very good. He goes, you're the only one that spots my phoniness. Which I wasn't, by the way, many of us. But he could take it, too. Like, he knew he was the same as we are. And I remember he called me one time. This was like, he was like, 40 and he was really, like. He was like, man, I'm irrelevant. Like, he felt irrelevant. He felt like he's like, I'm irrelevant. I'm off the grid. He just felt like, really? He wasn't really. Yeah, yeah.

Andrew Schulz

This is before Elephant in the Room. Room or after?

Jim Norton

Don't remember. I stopped into the taping of Elephant on the Room, but I didn't watch it. We had the same manager for many years.

Andrew Schulz

I watched it. I was there.

Jim Norton

Oh, you were. You saw the whole taping? Yeah.

Andrew Schulz

I mean, like, I'm a huge Patrice fan. Sure. This is my number one. Yeah, he's the greatest.

Jim Norton

Yeah, he was brilliant.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah. But okay, you were saying you top 10.

Jim Norton

Oh, just that he. He had these same feelings every comic, like, I get a kick out of. And I'm sure he secretly enjoys this. If there is an afterlife is the fact that people will torment all of us with. What would Patrice. I wish Patrice could see this. Like, when you're being a douche or about my married life. What would Patrice say? First of all, it wouldn't be kind, but he's still being used 15 years later to torture his friend. I'm sure he would enjoy it.

Andrew Schulz

You had the best description of Patrice, and I don't want to butcher it, but, like, he lived his life as if his friend, as if a documentary was being made of it and only his friends were going to watch it. Do you remember saying something like that?

Jim Norton

I don't, but it sounds accurate for,

Andrew Schulz

like, the Patrice doc or something. I don't know. I saw this clip.

Jim Norton

Oh, I don't remember it. I mean, but he did. He did. Like, his whole thing was he kind of had to be who he was in front of everybody, like, at all times. We had an argument one time, like, it was at the Colin Quinn show, which was before Tough crowd. There was three episodes he did. It was live on the SNL stage on NBC. It was 9:30 on a Monday, I think, and. And it went out live, and Lauren produced it, and I think I did the final two episodes. And the precursor for Tough Crowd was this little thing, the segment he would have called the Town hall, where there'd be like four comedians just sitting on the stoop. But you were doing a bit from your act. Joey Vega did it. I did it. Joey.

Andrew Schulz

Kind of like Comics Unleashed esque.

Jim Norton

In a way. Yes. But it was without the pleasantness, like Byron Allen's. It's a different energy.

Andrew Schulz

It's a positive, fun energy.

Jim Norton

Yeah, yeah. Supportive, sweet, like, you don't call each other out, but. Whereas tough crowd was like. You just couldn't wait for someone to flop. But we would do our little one minute or two minute bit to the camera. And I remember I was going over some censor. Was talking to the standards and practices backstage at NBC, and Patrisse was just taunting me, just taunting me. And I'm like, I'm trying to get a bit through standards and practices. I just fucking snapped at him. I'm like, will you shut the fuck up? I know you're a comic. And it's. It just got, like, real. So once in a while, you would get angry at each other. And I think of all the people to mediate, it was Keith Robinson.

Andrew Schulz

No way.

Jim Norton

Which. When Keith has to come in and actually be the voice of reason, when that obnoxious Philly asshole has to come in, and you're like, wow, Keith is right. But, you know, once in a while, you would get frustrated with each other. But we were doing one of them, and it might have been the third episode. And I'm watching Patrice do his bit, and, you know, he would do this thing where he would actually, like.

Andrew Schulz

He was just thinking of it on the spot.

Jim Norton

Mr. Casual, you know, Mr. Brilliant. Just stopped in to be a conduit for funny. Yeah. And. And I was watching him, and I'm just sitting right next to. And I'm looking at him, and he's. He's going. And I'm like, he forgot his joke. No. And I'm just. The joy. I'm like, oh, this fucking asshole forgot his joke on live television. I was so happy. But he did get it. He recovered and he found where he was going. But I remember just watching it and watching him stumble and going, oh, this is gonna be a wonderful moment. He forgot his thing on live television, but he recovered and he found it. But again, he was like, all of it. He was flawed. He was just a. He was our buddy. You know what I mean? Like, I love that he has this.

Andrew Schulz

We've mythologized him.

Jim Norton

And I'm okay with it because he really was a very real guy and a very real talker. And, you know, again, I did hours of Radio with him. So I watched his brain work in real time. And he was brilliant. I mean, you know, you. He was a brilliant thinker, you know, So I love that he's got this. And I've said many times we did a lot more benefits for him than he would have done for any of us. I would have been lucky if I died of a stroke if that idiot showed up to the. He would have done one Jim Norton benefit, and then by year two, he would have been. Like, he didn't have insurance. Like, he would. He would not have done a bunch of.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah, every year they do the Patrice o' Neill benefit.

Jim Norton

Yeah. I think they stopped. I haven't done the last few years.

Andrew Schulz

They did it this year, but I think.

Jim Norton

I think that that might have been the last one for a while. But. Yeah, I love that he has this. This. This kind of aura whenever you die young people look at it like that. But he was deserved of the respect.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Alex

I mean, he dies the same year that elephant in the room comes out.

Jim Norton

Oh, was it the same year?

Andrew Schulz

I didn't remember. Oh, sure.

Alex

I'm pretty sure that elephant in the room was. It comes out 2011.

Jim Norton

He died in 2011. He died in. Wow. I think it was.

Alex

Yeah, this comes out in February 2011.

Andrew Schulz

We watched that keep. Like, it was like a playoff game. Like, we had a watch party.

Jim Norton

Oh, really? Yeah. He was. That was the same year, so he was starting to get the Charlie Sheen roast, where he just went. Kind of went off book. He was on late. Then he just leaned in and kind of did.

Andrew Schulz

He kind of roasted the roast a lot of ways.

Jim Norton

Yeah. Yeah. He was really funny. I mean, he really was.

Andrew Schulz

And the standup was great. Bits were great. He was a great writer. And he had this, like, casual way of, like, talking through the audience. You know, it wasn't like the crowd was involved, but it was always, like, him imposing his ideas on the crowd.

Jim Norton

Yes.

Andrew Schulz

It wasn't him, like, asking them what they think it was. This is what I think. And you're gonna fucking agree eventually.

Jim Norton

And if you don't agree, you're still gonna listen to it the entire time. You know, I was talking to Louis recently, recently about, like, when you're doing standup, how a bit becomes stale sometimes? And he's like. We were just. I was out with him for seven weeks on a tour recently, and he said. He goes, yeah, I was really thinking about everything I was saying tonight and making sure. I was like, that's how you keep a bit alive. You think about what you're actually wanting to say to the audience, not. These are just words coming out while I think of something else. And Patrice would always do that. Like, everything he said he wanted to say to the audience. You could tell he really wanted to say this thing about, remember, relationships. So it never felt.

Andrew Schulz

It didn't feel like an excuse to get a laugh?

Jim Norton

No.

Andrew Schulz

It felt like even if he wasn't on stage, this is what he would be telling you about.

Jim Norton

Oh, yeah.

Andrew Schulz

Off stage.

Jim Norton

Yeah. He would talk about the same stuff on stage. Off stage.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Jim Norton

I mean, it was. We would just go there. We would be at the cellar till 2:30 in the morning playing chess. I would be out with dice again. This is between 97 and 2000. So I would fly home from Vegas, get to the cellar at like 11pm midnight, do a late spot. I'd be overtired. I hadn't slept. And we would just play chess and just scream at each other in the street. Three in the morning. It was great.

Andrew Schulz

And this is a time where, like, the seller is starting to really pop off, but it's not what it is now, where there's, you know, four different rooms, multiple shows. There was a time where there would be. It was just the McDougal and then there would be an early show and the late show would have people that just stayed from the early show.

Jim Norton

It was a. Yeah. Or you would just do. I think at one point it was just you would do one long show and you get food spots. I started there making money. I wouldn't get paid. I would just do food spots where you would do, like, the show started 9pm and then like, I think after 11 or 12, you do a 10 minute spot, not a 20 minute spot. And you got paid in a meal.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Jim Norton

So for the first couple years there, I would just. I was just, you know, you'd get food.

Andrew Schulz

Also. There are so few comics in at the seller at the time. I would. I remembered when Mike Destefano.

Jim Norton

Yes.

Andrew Schulz

Got passed.

Jim Norton

Wow. Okay, that's got to be 98 around there, right?

Andrew Schulz

I don't know the exact.

Jim Norton

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Oh, is it 2000?

Andrew Schulz

I think this is 2000s. Because I remember he was working a co. Comedy Village. Remember the Comedy Village?

Jim Norton

Yes. I don't think I did it, but I remember the name.

Andrew Schulz

Right. And it used to be. It was like on top of that Irish bar. It was like around the block from.

Jim Norton

Oh, that was the Boston Comedy Club.

Andrew Schulz

Well, it was Boston. And then it turned into Comedy Village when PJ Landers took it over. So it was the Boston early and then went to Comedy Village anyway. But I remember Mike being there, and I remember Mike getting passed, but it was this. There were so few people that were working the cell because there were so few shows.

Jim Norton

Yeah.

Andrew Schulz

That like, a new person getting past. There was, like, a big, big deal.

Jim Norton

It was a big deal. And now there's so many people. I don't know a lot of them. I don't know because I'm usually on.

Andrew Schulz

Sometimes I feel old, man.

Jim Norton

Yeah.

Andrew Schulz

Somebody up. But, like, I. I don't know when we were coming, like, when I was coming up. I'm sure you feel the same way. It's like, I feel like I knew every single person doing comedy.

Jim Norton

Yeah. Yeah. I knew who everybody was. Now I'll see clips, and somebody's got like 300,000 followers. I'm like, wow, I don't know that guy. It doesn't mean anything like that. I don't know him. I'm just. I'm not on that late, and I. I don't watch standup, so. But there's a lot of funny. A lot of people have these weird clips going around where they're like, yeah, comedy sucks now. And there's all these lousy comedians. Yeah. There's a lot of comics.

Andrew Schulz

There's a lot of really good comics.

Jim Norton

There's a lot of really good comics, dude.

Andrew Schulz

There's a lot. I mean, I think that's what happens when there's more. There's more good.

Jim Norton

Yeah, there's also more. There's a lot of terrible comedians and hacks, but there's also a lot of really funny guys.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Jim Norton

You know, and. And there's not this exclusive club of just a few funny people who see it the way it should be. People.

Andrew Schulz

That was your guys era.

Jim Norton

Well, we weren't. We were just judging people on whether or not they were funny. We didn't care about politics. We didn't care about your views on race. We didn't care about your views on gender. Like, none of that.

Andrew Schulz

Comedy wasn't important back then.

Jim Norton

No.

Andrew Schulz

So the only thing you could really hang your hat on was if you were funny.

Jim Norton

Yeah.

Andrew Schulz

Now important is the wrong word. But, like, now comedy is so popular that, like, you know, you're seeing this, like, intersection with all these other different things. And. But back in the day, when nobody's really making that much money doing it, being funny is the only currency. So he seemed to be the only thing everybody cared about.

Jim Norton

You could get. Bu. Could get busted, like, Dice was one of the first ones to get canceled. I mean, Lenny Bruce, but I mean Dice got canceled in like the late 80s when they yanked Ford Fairlane out of the theaters. And I believe Andrew had a three picture deal at that point. And I've heard that my cousin Vinnie was originally supposed to be Dice.

Andrew Schulz

Get the fuck out of Pesci's character.

Jim Norton

I think so, yeah.

Andrew Schulz

Oh, wow.

Jim Norton

And again, I, I believe that's true. Andrew I'm sure will tell me if I'm wrong, but I mean, Zeiss had three and they fucked him. They paid him out just to shut him up because he was getting so popular and doing arenas. And then they just again his gay jokes they didn't like. So he was canceled before any of us were. So around then they were going after people in the early 90s, but back then they called it political correctness, guys.

Andrew Schulz

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Jim Norton

I missed the 80s. I came in 1990.

Andrew Schulz

But you were still watching comedy. You're a fan. Like you're seeing the cultural relevance of comedy.

Jim Norton

I came in at a bottleneck, which was good though because you had to be better to work because all these places were shutting down the clubs.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jim Norton

So it was a little bit competitive. But I missed the boom of the 80s. But I would see guys 10 years later still doing the same jokes from the 80s because they were headline and making 2500 a week and they didn't want to let that go. But this boom is massive. This is bigger. I believe you're in part responsible for that. It's funny. I just had Dane on my. And I saw clips from that. I've always credited Dane Cook because he did MySpace before any of us did social media. And he captured. He took it the way the business could, couldn't control it. And the business I think eventually liked him. And you did it on Instagram. You came in on my show with Sam or our show, Sam would want to say. But you were talking about getting people to the YouTube channel, putting out clips. So you took what Dane started and revolutionized it in a different way. And that's a huge part of what's happening now. Good thing I waited, but I couldn't do a podcast because I had a,

Andrew Schulz

like a restriction deal.

Jim Norton

I had a non compete. I was not allowed to. Yeah. Until I got. Until I left. Until they let. They stopped negotiating with me.

Andrew Schulz

You know what I think Dane also did is I think he ushered in a new group of people that weren't standup fans.

Jim Norton

He did. Yeah.

Andrew Schulz

In a similar way that like Matt Rife I think is doing yes. Where it's just like you see a lot of like young women going to comedy shows even at The Cellar. And I think that that's a rife effect. There are other people who also have these, like, young girl audiences, but you see them start to matriculate in the clubs and you're like, oh, this is downstream from these people who really weren't stand up fans now making it part of their identity.

Jim Norton

Yeah, Yeah.

Alex

I don't get the animosity towards. Towards Matt or towards Dane at the time, because it's like you guys are

Andrew Schulz

all making so much more money because that happened.

Jim Norton

Yeah.

Alex

You're creating a bigger funnel to bring all these new people in and then all these other people, like, at my level, can eat off of it.

Jim Norton

It's also people who don't have the balls to attack other guys. Like, it becomes a safe target. And Dane at one point was the target that you could hit and not suffer any real repercussions for. But it was all fake. Like, you know, you don't have to. Like Dane Zach, what was he doing? He was just out making money and doing it. I saw him shoot a special in front of 17,000 people. I was like, this belongs in an arena. Like, it was. Say what you want about it. He was in an arena.

Andrew Schulz

I remember, like, hearing people. This is when I'm like, super young in. Right. But I was. I'd be at the Cellar and people would be like, talking shit about Dane. I remember Dan came to the Cellar once and all those same people were,

Jim Norton

yeah, that's how it is.

Andrew Schulz

And I was like, oh, it's all phony.

Jim Norton

Yeah.

Andrew Schulz

You know what I mean? Like, it's all. The second he walks in the room, everybody's trying to go on tour, Everybody's trying to hit the road, do whatever. Yeah. I think there was a little disappointment in it because I think in my head, I was like, well, oh, yeah, everybody's just going to Patrice it, right? They're going to keep that same energy right now and say exactly how they feel. And I think a lot of times people are kind of loyal to their opportunities 100%.

Jim Norton

I'm also a background backtracking phony. And I got.

Andrew Schulz

Wait, wait, when.

Alex

When what happened?

Jim Norton

I wrote two books and the second one was I. I was angry.

Andrew Schulz

Monster rain is one, right?

Jim Norton

No, no, no. Happy endings.

Andrew Schulz

Happy endings.

Jim Norton

And then the second one was I hate your guts. And I regret some of the things in that book because it was. I was angry because this was when people were like, I miss got fired. And I was just so fucking sick of people getting punished for jokes and things they were saying. So a Lot of where I came from was kind of a shittier point of view. I think the book was funny, but I wish I had been. So I trashed Steve Martin in the book for doing the Pink Panther, but I was. Because I was. It was a Peter Sellers role, and I was just. I was just being a dick.

Andrew Schulz

Right.

Jim Norton

That was unreasonable.

Andrew Schulz

Right.

Jim Norton

Because I've always been a Steve Martin fan. I actually admire him. I think he's brilliant.

Andrew Schulz

Fantastic.

Jim Norton

Richard Prior thought he was brilliant.

Andrew Schulz

By the way, his book, Born Standing Up, I'm sure.

Jim Norton

Amazing. Yeah.

Andrew Schulz

I mean, like, really, the doldrums of comedy.

Jim Norton

Yeah.

Andrew Schulz

You know, like doing a fucking gig for four people at Knott's Berry Farm or whatever it was, and just like, very cool. Cool exploration into that.

Jim Norton

He was one of the. He was a real pioneer, and he was original and brilliant, but I was just being a dick in this book. So, anyway, I wrote the book. Couple years later, I'm at. I'm doing field pieces for the Tonight show for Leno, and we were at the Grammys. And this dumb bit I was doing was I was handing people my cd, asking them if they would nominate, try to get me nominated, you know, whatever. And Steve Martin and his band came through.

Andrew Schulz

Foss told me you stole that from him, the CD.

Jim Norton

No, no, no. Seeing CDs sexually. That I stole. But the. So I handed Steve Martin my cd and he goes, jim Norton, you said some unkind things about me in your book.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Jim Norton

And I was immediately the fucking. You're right. I'm sorry. I was being a dick.

Andrew Schulz

Good for you.

Jim Norton

But I. But I was like. I was being truthful. I'm like, I'm a fan. I was just being an asshole. And he was very kind. He's like, no, no, you're forgiven. And he talked and did the interview, but I don't think they heard that part. But he handled it really nicely. But that's why I hate anonymity so much, because I had to suffer through the embarrassment of doing it in person. Of doing it in person and getting called out like a. And I did exactly what everybody else does. I didn't mean it. I mean, because I was being a dick. And he's not a guy I hated. He was a guy I hated. I'm okay with being confrontational. I'm not afraid of confrontation.

Andrew Schulz

We've seen it.

Jim Norton

I've had a lot of it. Yeah. I've had a lot of it on the air. I mean. Mean, you know, you can't have that many hours without a lot of Back and forth.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Jim Norton

But he was a guy that I really did admire, and I had no. I had no desire.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Jim Norton

To.

Andrew Schulz

He's also a comic, Jim.

Jim Norton

Yeah.

Andrew Schulz

He's felt the exact same way about other people.

Jim Norton

I'm sure he has. But he was too smart to put it in a book. I was just. Or.

Andrew Schulz

Or he got successful. Because I think that's. The other thing is, like, once you get some success, a lot of those. Those feelings kind of go away.

Jim Norton

Yes. And you're less angry because you have so many good things happening and so much going on for you, and then

Andrew Schulz

you don't care if somebody else is also successful. I think that sometimes when shit exists in a vacuum where it's like you're grinding, you're trying to get your opportunity and you're not getting it, and you see these people getting it, it's like, well, fuck them for getting it.

Jim Norton

Yeah.

Andrew Schulz

And then you get your opportunity and it ends up working out, and you're like, well, they weren't that bad.

Jim Norton

Yeah, they were okay.

Andrew Schulz

They were decent. They've always been nice to me.

Jim Norton

Even Patrice, though, at the end of his life, he started to feel bad about the way he had treated.

Andrew Schulz

Certainly he got some success, man.

Jim Norton

He got some success. And he dealt with a guy on his set. He had a show he was doing. I don't remember. We did a movie together called Furry Vengeance, which was. Let's. It's. It was with. It was about talking animals with Brendan Fraser and. Okay. And Brook Shields. And I'm gonna go on the record and say it was not the finest film, not the greatest film.

Mark Gagnon

I thought different types of furries,

Jim Norton

and he was very different. Difficult on the set. I can say to the director, Patrice was a. He was. He was a rough. It was a rough road for that director. But we were after. Afterwards, he was telling me that time that he had done some show and there's a guy on the set who was being a fucking dick. And Patrice goes. I realize, am I that guy on other people's shit?

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Jim Norton

And it really affected him.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Jim Norton

And I remember he started feeling like Lisa Lampanelli, he had been very unkind to. And a few other kinds of comics. And he. I think Jeff Garland told a story where Patrice apologized to him, but Patrice started apologizing to people.

Andrew Schulz

Good for him.

Jim Norton

But it wasn't for. For career gain.

Andrew Schulz

No.

Jim Norton

It was just because he legitimately felt like, ah, like, you know, you. You. You grow out of certain things and you become older. I think even Lennon at the end of his life was doing an interview where he was going like he had changed at 40. Like, you're just not the same guy you were, dude, coming up. So, you know, he. He evolved as a person, too. I felt shitty about certain mean. Not with us. Not things you say just to be funny, but things that were actually mean. Pointed criticism you feel a little bad about. Like, yeah, they didn't attack me first. What was I doing? Yeah, you know, I've been addict to a lot of people verbally. I got called out for it.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah, yeah, it's.

Alex

That's an important lesson. I feel like, that I got to learn just even doing this show, like, so young and like, through you and just, like, watching other people. And then also, Craig Ferguson, he has, like, a great moment on his show where, like, Britney Spears is going through something, and she. I think she, like, shaved her head and threw a umbrella at someone. And he was like, I'm not going to make fun of her because she's going through a mental health thing right now. And I did make fun of someone a different time. And I ran into him in an event, and he was like, yeah, dude, that really sucked when you said that.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Alex

And Craig, like, pointed that out. And then I try to keep that in mind where, like, we talk about people all the time, and I try not to base. My litmus is like, if I wouldn't say this to him in person, then

Andrew Schulz

I'm not going to say.

Alex

Then I not gonna say it, dude. And then a joke is a different thing. Like, I'll make a joke about whatever.

Jim Norton

Yeah, of course.

Alex

If I'm gonna really take a stance, like, I want to be able to make sure that if they were in the room, I would say the same thing.

Jim Norton

Yeah. If I'm gonna go in on somebody, like, for real, I want to know that I would say that in front of that person. It's why I don't yell at old ladies when they drive poorly, because I'm like, when I. If that. If that was Francis and Ganu in the next car, would I scream? That's what the only. That's why I don't yell at old people people, because I wouldn't do it to somebody that could punch me through a fucking wall.

Andrew Schulz

I remember I was at a. I said something, like, so stupid on Twitter. This is, like, years ago. We were in Miami, and it was like. I think Pete was like, Davidson was, like, hosting something, maybe a Jake Paul fight or something. I don't know. Something happened. I said something stupid and flippant. I remember I bumped into him at like, a WWE event.

Jim Norton

Who, Jake or Pete?

Andrew Schulz

Pete. And I was just like, dude, you know what? I said that this thing. I don't even know if you even remember. Whatever. Like that. It was really stupid and I'm sorry for that. I said.

Jim Norton

Said that. Yeah.

Andrew Schulz

And it was so interesting. Like, he was just like, hey, man, I really appreciate you saying that. And. Yeah, no, who cares? Like, we all say dumb stuff. I've said dumb stuff. And it was just like, the easiest way of going through it. And it kind of like, cleansed me a little bit.

Jim Norton

Yeah. Sometimes if you mean it, like, there's the saccharine douchebag publicist apology. And I would like to say I apologize for anybody who's worth. And then there's legit. Hey, man, I'm really sorry about that. Yeah. And there's no shame in being sorry about something if you legitimately are.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Jim Norton

Or if you fucked up. Are you wrong to person or you're an.

Andrew Schulz

Like, it's liberating because you feel like more of an. To hold on to it for what? For your ego? For something like, I up. It's fine.

Jim Norton

I up. Whatever. I made a mistake. And an apology in a private setting like that is much different than, like, I did performance. Like, when cameras were on. Did I say that? I don't know what I was. I love the Pink Panther. You know, I stand by Peter Sellers is. That's his role. But I was really.

Andrew Schulz

The performative apologies, I think is the one we don't believe.

Jim Norton

Yeah. I apologize to Dr. Phil because I was. I. I don't know. Dr. Phil. Yeah, we interviewed him one time. He was very nice.

Andrew Schulz

You were like, where the were you when I was blowing kids?

Jim Norton

Exactly. I could have used your hand on the back of my head. Made me not feel like I was enjoying this so much. For Pete's sake, Phil, What would you say to Diaphragm? I wrote, he was a chapter of my book, and it was a shitty chapter, and I was too critical. Making fun of somebody is one thing, but it came. Like I said I was in a bad place at that point.

Andrew Schulz

Came from a place of anger.

Jim Norton

Not like anger and funny, but the anger was more than it should have been. So I apologized to him. And then he asked, what's the name of your book? And I'm like, oh, boy, I wish I didn't. But again, I just felt like I'm not an honest person. Good for you, Nancy Grace. This is a clip of Sam and I, one of our first shows where she walks off our show. Because I had trashed her relentlessly for a long time because I thought she was a phony and I thought she capitalized dead kids. But she was in studio with us, and I felt like I had to. I didn't attack her, but I said, just so you know, I had to say it, because if I don't say it, then I'm just a fucking coward who's doing it behind a screen.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Jim Norton

And I believe she knew who I was. Cause she was very unpleasant.

Andrew Schulz

We're doing it for attention.

Jim Norton

For attention.

Andrew Schulz

It's like, if I don't really believe this, am I just doing it for attention?

Jim Norton

Yeah. But I believed it. I didn't like her, and I didn't know she had suffered a personal tragedy in her life. Somebody I think that she loved was murdered.

Andrew Schulz

So that kind of motivates her worldview in a way.

Jim Norton

Yeah. But hashtag tot mom is still capitalizing on.

Andrew Schulz

Well, that's the problem is a lot of people are capitalizing on.

Jim Norton

Yeah, absolutely.

Andrew Schulz

It's easy to call them out for it.

Jim Norton

Yeah. And it was fun to call her out. It felt good.

Andrew Schulz

And. Yeah. I don't know if that's the wrong one.

Jim Norton

No, I didn't feel terrible about that. But I feel like I have to say I had to say something to her and just, you know, I. Otherwise, I'm a. Yeah. You know what I mean? You don't want to be, but. But again, you are. You have these moments. I'm sure you've had tense moments on this where it gets real with somebody, and you're like, I'm not gonna back off on this.

Alex

For sure.

Jim Norton

I don't want to.

Andrew Schulz

It's almost like those are the more interesting discussions. Like, anytime I would go do, like, press or do podcasts, I almost, like, wanted. I'd almost rather start every. Every interview with, like, what do we. What do you think we disagree on? Yeah, you know, like, because it's like. Let's just get there. Sometimes it's pleasantries and all this other stuff, and you can tell, like, they actually want to get to something. But, like, I'd rather talk about the thing you think we disagree on. Because, one, you may be, like, feel like I have a certain worldview, which I don't. And if I do have that worldview, I would love to defend it.

Jim Norton

Yeah, of course.

Andrew Schulz

Right.

Jim Norton

Like, tell you why I feel the way I feel. Exactly.

Andrew Schulz

I don't mind being hated for the way I feel about the world.

Jim Norton

Yeah.

Andrew Schulz

It's Kind of like one of the cool things about being a comedian.

Jim Norton

Yeah.

Andrew Schulz

It's like if we actually feel some way. And that's fine. I think maybe what can be like grading is to be. To receive like criticism for something that I don't actually believe.

Jim Norton

It's. You realize when. When people start talking about you.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Jim Norton

Like we were, you know, I was getting trashed on me message boards in 2001. So it's like you become pre.

Andrew Schulz

This is. The Internet exists, but this is pre. Like Reddit before any of that stuff.

Jim Norton

Yeah. But you learn. You become very immune to it after a while. What people are saying, oh, no, what's he saying about me?

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Jim Norton

You learn not to give a fuck about the. That a long time ago. But I realized people were so wrong. Like they would say things. They would think they know something that happened or they would think they know my motivation for doing something. And I'm like, I'm the person, so I know the truth.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Jim Norton

And I'm like, wow, you really think you're right. But you're a. Like you're. You couldn't be more wrong.

Andrew Schulz

So how'd you deal with that?

Jim Norton

It made me angry, but it also changed how I viewed other people. And I became much more like. Well, I meant because I realize what an asshole you are if you always think you know the answers. Because so many people had said things that were incorrect. Yeah. That I 100% knew were incorrect. That it changed the way my worldview to the point where I don't want to be that stubborn douchebag. Like whoever coined the phrase identity politics. Whoever coined that phrase is. Brian. I think we talk about this. It's brilliant. Because people's identity becomes wrapped up in these things and in proving you wrong.

Andrew Schulz

Well, once your identity is. Is wrapped up in it, you have to defend it with everything it has to be.

Jim Norton

Yeah. And my identity is kind of wrapped up in just the things I've talked about and light. Which is not always great.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Jim Norton

I mean there's. I mean we had. I was on Fight. I did Fallon one time when it was still a late show, the Tonight Show. They did. They didn't want me like a, like

Andrew Schulz

a five minute set or as a guest appearance. Yeah. I remember seeing something Jim, he was

Jim Norton

a nice guy and he's still a very nice guy. But his show is not interested in being in the Jim Norton business. 2026. But I told the story, a true story. I'd gone to like some transsexual bar the night before and left my Wallet at the bar. So I had to go back and get my wallet from this.

Andrew Schulz

Damn. Don't you hate when that happens?

Jim Norton

You got to go twice. Ah, shucks. But no, I think I had already. I think I had already, you know, had already been relieved, so there was no desire to go back back in. I was like, get my wallet. Toilet paper stuck to my dick. But I think I told that story on his show on panel, and it was just like, that's not always a good identity to have. Like, when that's your identity, because that's the type of stuff you talk about. Because that's the life you lead.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Jim Norton

It's not always helpful.

Andrew Schulz

Helpful meaning. Like, the Internet now can kind of like frame you in a specific way or box you in a.

Jim Norton

In a way. In the business itself. Like, the business is filled with fake allies. They're fucking fake. Oh, yes, they are fake allies. And I've come to, like. Like, I watch all these comedians getting called Nazis, and it's like, you know, you progressive fucking babbling fake allies. The guys who are called Nazis, they're the ones who have been nicest to me and my wife. Like, they're the ones who have welcomed us and been nicest to us. So I've got a really strange view of this now that I.

Andrew Schulz

For the listeners, your wife is trying to trance.

Jim Norton

Yes. But I. I've seen so many people who are like, these. These real public allies. And then you're like, hey, you want to come on the podcast? Ah, nah. Bad love pill. But I'm bad.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Jim Norton

And it's like, you don't want to be close, you don't want to be helpful. And they're not obligated. Don't get me wrong. They have no obligation.

Andrew Schulz

No. But it's performative.

Jim Norton

It's all. And they attack Rogan. And I hated that. It's. It's annoying because, like, I. I know these guys before they did podcasts, and I see how they've the same guy. It's the same dude. It was in movies.

Andrew Schulz

Also, you know him. Like, just go talk to him.

Jim Norton

You know this person, Text him, call him, go have a conversation with him.

Andrew Schulz

And also, you just went on the pod every time that you asked him to go on the pod because it was good for you.

Jim Norton

Yeah. And all of a sudden you're like, whoa, hey.

Andrew Schulz

But this is a. This is a unique thing. And that, like, just talking to you over the last few weeks, it was interesting. It's like, you seem to be very grateful for the people that have helped you get to where you are.

Jim Norton

Very.

Andrew Schulz

And I think they're. I'm not saying that there are other people that aren't grateful, but I think that their North Star is operational opportunity. And it's not like this opportunity would not be possible without the people that helped you out.

Jim Norton

100 and nobody, again, nobody owes. You know, to quote Rocky 3, you know, friends don't know they do because they want. But nobody owes anybody anything. Like, you know, guys we had on the radio show. They helped our radio show. They were funny on the radio show. So it was. It was a two way street.

Andrew Schulz

I feel like I owe so much to Charlamagne, so much to Rogan, so much to everybody.

Jim Norton

Yeah. And I owe a lot to Dice, and I owe a lot to Opie and Anthony, too. And I've always been very public about how much those guys did for me because they changed my life.

Andrew Schulz

I mean, didn't you shout them out on your special?

Jim Norton

I used to bring Opie and Anthony to my specials. And I would always insist on them standing up and me pointing them out.

Andrew Schulz

It was. I thought that was such a cool moment.

Jim Norton

Yeah. HBO wanted to cut that, but I really fought for it. And they're like, yeah, they're not national. And I'm like.

Andrew Schulz

I'm like, sometimes the narcissism that allows you to be successful in the business of entertainment can kind of like frame your worldview. Like, this was all supposed to happen. And there's so many lucky things that happen and so many incredibly generous people around you that allow that luck to proliferate.

Jim Norton

Yes.

Andrew Schulz

And yeah, if you. If you're not like a complete fucking narcissist, you can show gratitude to those people.

Jim Norton

Yeah.

Andrew Schulz

And be loyal to them.

Jim Norton

And there are a lot of people where they're in a club and they just. They don't want touching you to risk the club they're in. Or they're afraid that if they have you on or you have them on, that it will damage the club that they're a member of.

Andrew Schulz

Cause they don't really feel like they're in the club.

Jim Norton

Maybe not.

Andrew Schulz

They don't have the confidence that they're in. They don't have the confidence. What they think is that they're a guest and they're like, if I ruffle one feather, it's not gonna happen. And like, one of the coolest things about the Internet is like, you get to kind of create your club, man. You get to have your people that support you and fuck with you and you're Supposed to have the freedom to do whatever the fuck you want because of that.

Jim Norton

Yes.

Andrew Schulz

And otherwise we're just back in that same system that we were all annoyed with, where we were, like, basically begging for an opportunity.

Jim Norton

Yeah. But now I'm in my 50s, and I'm begging people to come on my podcast. So this is humiliation.

Andrew Schulz

But.

Alex

But you kind of like the humiliation, you know, I do, but it's funny.

Jim Norton

I wish I could jerk off to. No, I'd love to, but I'm busy. But I can't for some reason. That just doesn't. That doesn't motivate my balls to move at all. I wish they would turn me on. Believe me, I would have a lot of great fodder. But, you know. You know who is. Who is a real person? Like. Like Dave Attell. I. I had said to Attel one time. I'm like, hey, man, I would love to have you on. He goes, I can't. I'm on the road from the street. Then I saw him at the seller, like, a month later. He goes, oh, hey, man, I'm back. So if you want to.

Andrew Schulz

The man.

Jim Norton

That's how you know a person being real with you and genuine with you is. They. They. It's. It's not you following up eight times with the same. So, yeah, you develop. I don't trash people because nobody owes me anything. So no one is wronging me. They're not wronging me. I'm not being wronged. I'm not a victim in that.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Jim Norton

But you just make a mental note, like, I. Oh, all right. I hope you die in a fire,

Andrew Schulz

Dave. Dave is such an interesting character because he's one of the few people whose mythology exists while he's alive.

Jim Norton

Yes. And it's 100% deserved.

Andrew Schulz

100% deserved.

Jim Norton

He's also David Tell.

Andrew Schulz

We're talking about David Tell.

Jim Norton

And he's a generous guy. He's good to every comedian around him. And I remember we did. We went to the Pentagon. It was with. It was with Bill and Jim. We were doing that tour, the. The social tour. This time was Bill, Jim, Dave, and myself.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Jim Norton

And they had us go to the Pentagon to talk to wounded warriors. And none of us knew what to say to somebody who lost a limb in a thing. We were just supposed to make them feel better. But a. Tell was great. He was walking right up to people. Wow. What happened to you, man? What the is that from? And they were so happy that someone

Andrew Schulz

who's treating them normally.

Jim Norton

I was over in Desert Storm, and Like, he's such a real person. And it was so genuine. We were all like. Attell has been funny at some of the worst periods. Like when Manny from the Comedy Cellar got sick, Dave made me laugh in the hospital room. I was devastated. He made me laugh. He made all of us laugh. When Patrice fucking died and we were trying to raise money, he was on the air and he goes, come on, people. Chip in. We gotta pay for a purple suit and a giant coffin. He's the fucking funniest guy in the world. So he would always make me laugh in terrible fucking moments. Moments where I just was not. I was. You know, I was kind of personally devastated. But Dave is deserved. His legacy is deserved.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Alex

I'm curious in that vein, like, what was doing comedy in the city right after 9 11?

Jim Norton

Like, the cellar was closed. I was living in Jersey at the time. I was right over the bridge in Cliffside park. And you could smell it. Like, you could smell the burning whatever for months after. And I think below 14th Street, Manhattan was closed to traffic. So the Cellar was closed for a while. And I remember when we started going back and we didn't know how we're gonna talk about stuff. And on Opie and Anthony, like, they. They kept those guys home on 9 11. So I just kind of called in and we were talking through what had happened in the morning. And the way that ona started making 911 funny was people were writing these fucking melodramatic, dripping BE shit songs about the towers and the pain. So we were getting copies of these songs and trying to guess what they were going to do to rhyme or how they were going to ruin this and mocking these songs. So it was a way in.

Andrew Schulz

So you're not mocking 9 11. You're mocking the songs. These, like, performatives.

Jim Norton

And they were awful, and it let people kind of step back into it. And on the stage, we were all at the Cellar talking about our daydream. Like, we all daydreamed. What would I have done if I was on one of those planes? All of us had stupid daydreams. I forget what Patrice's was, but the end of it was he would have then walked out and got into a cab and said, take me to Brooklyn. Like, it was such an asshole. But none of us were kidding. We were all being legit. And Keith had one, which was just childlike in its stupidity. So I remember I went on stage, Keith was. Was hosting, and I told his. And that's not how every comic got back into it, but I just remember Telling the audience how stupid. I just wanted you to know how stupid your host is. And I talked about what his fantasy was to stop 911 and guys were kind of working through it like that and talking through it like that. Giving our own daydreams on stage and people related to it. Because you weren't shitting on the victims.

Andrew Schulz

Right, right.

Jim Norton

You were talking about what you thought you would do in that circumstance. And everyone thought, what would I do in that circumstance?

Andrew Schulz

Yeah, I remember exactly that moment. Like, what shit should we do? I was in high school.

Jim Norton

Yeah. How would I handle this?

Andrew Schulz

Yeah, yeah. We thought it was like an attack.

Alex

So we were like, kind of. Kind of.

Andrew Schulz

No meaning.

Jim Norton

Like, we thought. Sorry.

Andrew Schulz

We thought it was an invasion. So we're like, do we get guns? Like, what do we do? You know, you have this, like, hubris is like a 17 year old kid in New York.

Jim Norton

You're like, yeah, we got a couch on fire.

Alex

Throw it at the town.

Andrew Schulz

That's how we're gonna stop terrorism.

Jim Norton

Yeah. Let's get our mouth tangled in and go back for seconds.

Mark Gagnon

I remember being in high school, I was like, all they had was razor blades. Like, we could have fought these guys

Andrew Schulz

just thinking every week anyway.

Jim Norton

Well, they thought they had bombs because they said they had bombs. And that was why they opened up their cockpit doors because they were told that they had fake bombs. So they, they, everyone thought they had an explosive device.

Andrew Schulz

They got to lead with that.

Jim Norton

Yeah. You, you have to open with the bombs, the razors, what you really had. But then the. The pilots were trained to open the door and negotiate. That's why they opened the door.

Andrew Schulz

Right, right.

Jim Norton

So they trained them differently after they

Andrew Schulz

also said they were gonna land.

Jim Norton

Fed bombs will land. We'll hostage you guys and get money. Yes. Yeah. They didn't fly. Yeah. Wow.

Alex

It's just such an interesting time as far as, like, comedically in New York, like these tragedies and how comics come back from it. Like, I remember hearing stories about like, Gilbert Godfrey doing something. I think he.

Jim Norton

On a roast.

Alex

Yeah, I think he did a roast like a week later or something like that. And he did a 911 joke.

Jim Norton

It might have been a month later, but it was. I think it was one of the

Andrew Schulz

Comedy Central roasts, wasn't it?

Jim Norton

Yeah.

Alex

He's been a close time frame.

Jim Norton

He's taken a flight, but they're going to make a stop over at the Empire State Building. It was a really good. And everybody got mad and. But hurt, you know, all the fake. It's all fake. I Can't even get mad at it anymore. The anger is all fake. It's all a perform. It's all pretend.

Andrew Schulz

And it's rewarded now. It's interesting, like, when you saw it on like a forum back in the day, maybe it was rewarded by the community. But I don't even know if there was, like, upvotes or anything in it. Like, now you have the most reward for the most part performative response or whatever it is.

Jim Norton

Yeah. Like the outrage. It's all dopamine. Everyone's chasing their own dopamine. And I know that because I've seen people I didn't like getting in trouble for, like, for usually for language stuff.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Jim Norton

And I. I never contribute to it, but I've watched it and enjoyed it.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Jim Norton

I'm like, wow, I'm happy that's happening to that person.

Andrew Schulz

It is a weird thing because it comes for everybody. And I think, like, before you're there, you don't think that it'll come for you.

Jim Norton

Sure, of course it come for anybody. People like you can't be cast anybody. Because canceling is not. It's not a rational thing. It's not based on real things. It's arbitrary and it's random, and it's based on the mood. The punishment is meted out according to the mood of the crowd, according to their perception of the person to begin. So it's all fucking arbitrary and bullshit. So anyone can fall victim to it.

Andrew Schulz

You said an interesting thing, I think. I don't know if it was Opie or Anthony, but they said that eventually the audience will start entertaining themselves.

Jim Norton

Yes. And turn on us. And they did. And we kind of knew. Oh, I think it was Opie who actually said it.

Andrew Schulz

Can you explain what that was like, you're saying in these forums that happened or.

Jim Norton

Well, we had. The fans were very hardcore. Like, they were really. They were great. I mean, they were animals. A lot of them are really funny. Like, a lot of the people that hate me the most today, I know on some level don't hate me.

Andrew Schulz

They've been following you for three decades,

Jim Norton

and I'm still a part of their life. Like, I'm still. I mean, they're, you know, you know, their. Their screen name is still something that I said.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Jim Norton

And then they. Even if they hate me now, but eventually, you know that again, people are not just going to be autistic in my favor. People are going to somehow, you know, that can turn on you in a dime. And then after a while, they're just making each Other laugh. And a lot of them are really funny. Like, and what am I going to do? Pretend that I'm above it?

Andrew Schulz

Like, no, if you're a comedian also, like, you can appreciate the funny.

Jim Norton

Some of it, yeah. And some of it's mean and just shitty and it's not meant to be funny. But again, I've said a lot of fucking horrible things in my life. I mean, a lot of horrible things publicly about people, about tragedies and about deaths and about pedophilia, and I've mocked it all. And I'm in no position to pretend that I am not completely fair game to be made fun of. Yeah.

Mark Gagnon

Outside, before the pod, you mentioned you used to get a bunch of death threats.

Jim Norton

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Mark Gagnon

Like why?

Jim Norton

Because of stuff we would say on the air.

Andrew Schulz

Like you have to use a fake name at the seller.

Jim Norton

I started doing that because of guys calling in. And I remember a couple of guys, I would get emails all the time and I'd always have people say they're gonna kill me. But they would do it under their real name. And that's when I stopped responding. I used to go back and forth with emails, fuck you, you. Like I was, I didn't, you know. But then a few of them use their real name. And when they're threatening to shoot you and using their real name, I'm like, that's a guy who has a problem.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Jim Norton

And then I told the Roy story when the guy who sued me, and I've told the story before, but I got sued by a guy who challenged me to a duel for defamation. Long story, he was a lawyer, challenged me to a duel. He said, we'll go to South America, we'll get guns. It was 2008, he sued me, it went away. And then one of the old fashioned

Mark Gagnon

duels, like you take 10 paces.

Jim Norton

Yes, that's what he was suggesting. But during the pandemic, he dressed up like a FedEx worker and went to a judge's house and killed her adult son. He was gonna shoot her and he wanted to kill Sonia Sotomayor from the Supreme Court. Like he was a crazy. He had cancer, stage four cancer. So he shot. He was going to go kill this judge and he wound up shooting himself in the woods. So, like, that's a guy who I had a back and forth with. He put me in his manifesto. So you learn, like there's real people that you're interacting with and listening to you. So you know what I mean? Like, I was always paranoid about the seller being hassled And I didn't want to just be there randomly every night and have some.

Andrew Schulz

Did you read the manifesto?

Jim Norton

Yeah. He said I look like Gollum. And I. Oh, that's good. I know, that's good. I. And I. And I've even said I had no defamation case. But yeah, he was a real piece of shit and. But I'm. I'm glad that his demise happened. But it's unfortunate that somebody innocent had to, to get it too.

Andrew Schulz

I mean, you know, a great stroke of irony is in that manifesto. If he was like, this guy used to blow me in a pool. And then he just never talked to me again.

Jim Norton

And he used teeth one time, so I pissed to defend myself. And then he mocked me. He victimized me by making fun of me. Yeah, he was, that was. But you realize there are people watching you who. You don't know what they're thinking and you don't know who they are.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Jim Norton

So you have to. I mean, there's real life psychopaths out there.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Jim Norton

So that it wasn't me thinking I was important. It was me getting enough death threats from enough different places. And most of them are lies. They're almost always lies. Yeah, but you're only worried about one person. Right.

Andrew Schulz

Did you get stuff for your wife being trans?

Jim Norton

Oh, it's been all positive. I. I can't believe.

Andrew Schulz

No, but like, like, like, do you have any like, maybe more conservative leading? That's the tricky thing because they've known this about you for decades. They've known.

Jim Norton

20 years. Over 20 years.

Andrew Schulz

So it's not before mentioned.

Jim Norton

Yeah, you were early on.

Alex

Yeah, before was cool.

Jim Norton

Yeah, I, I really was.

Andrew Schulz

You were there before the surgery got good?

Jim Norton

I. Yes, I was. I mean I was.

Andrew Schulz

You like those Russian astronauts?

Jim Norton

Yeah, I was, I was back in the days where you would, you would tip the wig like a hat. Good evening.

Andrew Schulz

How early did you find that you were into the trans stuff?

Jim Norton

Teen stuff. A teen stuff. And I. Or maybe even before that I saw and the story I've told is it's truth was it was a star, a woman named Salka, she was trans porn star. And I saw her when I was a teenager in my friend's porn, his dad's porn collection or whatever it was, magazine. And it just hit me, I was like, oh, I don't know why, but it made sense. It just made sense. There's certain things that you can't say exactly why, but there was something about that that I just was like, I understand this.

Andrew Schulz

Was there any point at that Time where you were like, okay, am I gay? Like, of course.

Jim Norton

I mean, I was getting dressed this morning. I was just saying that it's about into my socks. But no, of course you wonder the people. It's amazing how stupid people are. Like, so many people will go, just come out of the closet, bro.

Andrew Schulz

I'm like, you're in a public relationship closet.

Jim Norton

It's a, It's a glass room. Penises and vaginas all over it. You're talking about. Yeah, I'm not secretive about this stuff, and I'm not being dishonest, but I won't claim, yes, I'm a homosexual. And I'm not like, I don't exactly like. And I mean this very genuinely, and I'll say, but I'm definitely not straight. You, there's no way you're in a relationship with a partner who has a penis and you're a heterosexual. That's where all that jargon nonsense has to stop. Because you're losing people. No one is taking you seriously. No one thinks that you're saying anything real.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Jim Norton

When you just throw fucking phrases and terms at people, you know, it's not. I don't know exactly how to describe it, and I'm okay not knowing the answer.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Jim Norton

But the idea, like, you three guys. And I'll say this, like, the idea of being sexual with any of you, and this is the truth, is as awful for me thinking it as it is for you.

Mark Gagnon

Thank God.

Jim Norton

Like, yes, 100%.

Alex

You gotta rank us, though, that you had to rank us.

Jim Norton

I, I, I, I would always go with the money, but I, I mean, I'm not a idiot, but the idea of being physical or sexual with my friend, like, it's, it's repulsive to me. Like, you know what I mean? And people misinterpret sometimes my life with the way I view them, and it's just not that way.

Mark Gagnon

But do you like dudes that look like dudes?

Alex

No.

Jim Norton

No, I've never liked men. Masculine energy. I don't like masculine energy at all. I just. I don't think it's sexy at all. You know, like, with transgender. Depends on the person, really. There's been plenty of trans people I've been with, and I hate when they. Sometimes trans people get mad me, like, you're fetishizing. I'm like, I fetishize every person in my life. I think I am. Yeah.

Andrew Schulz

Why is that like a. Why is it a pejorative?

Jim Norton

I don't know. It's. It's just one of these things.

Andrew Schulz

What's the difference between being attracted to something and then from fetishizing it?

Jim Norton

I guess if you're only attracted to it in the dark, they consider it a fetish.

Andrew Schulz

You're in the light.

Jim Norton

Oh, but are you kidding me? It's spotlight that I turned on. I didn't get caught. I turned the light on. I'm like, hey, yeah. Because again, I just, you know, I get sick of guys getting outed who got caught with a trans person. Just admit it. You just shut up and admit it. Admit who you like. Especially if you're in your 50s or your 60s at this point.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Jim Norton

Come out and say it. That. That always annoyed me, but I would never, ever out a person.

Andrew Schulz

Right. But you've heard it and you've heard the whispers, and maybe even trans girls in the community have said certain things.

Jim Norton

You. If you want to know who trans people have sex with a transsex worker, they'll tell you immediately, oh, it's because they don't care. They're having a good time, chatting. They don't mean it for public consumption, of course. But I mean. And I also hate this fake thing from men who are so. Like, a lot of people, they're not attracted to it at all.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Jim Norton

And I hate when people go, you're transphobic if you don't like trans. Trans women. No, you're not. You're not transphobic if you don't want a penis in your face.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Jim Norton

That's not transphobia. That's just who you are and that's your life.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Jim Norton

But I also hate when straight men. Like, I was on Theo's podcast, and I love Theo, and we were joking about something and I, I showed him a picture of my wife's dick, which. Yeah, but he had led into it saying somebody had showed him a picture of something, but it was like, she wouldn't believe me. She would care. I wouldn't do it. Yeah, she doesn't. And he was, you know, he was funny with it. He was. Theo. He was like, oh, right. And. But all the comments of people like, dude, that's disgusting. I'm like, shut the up. You watch porn? What do you look for? Small dick porn? No, you don't. No, you don't. You're not that shocked by a penis. Yeah, you stop pretending and role playing.

Andrew Schulz

What did they think was wrong with it?

Jim Norton

They just, they were just white knighting, like, virtue signaling, like, yeah, fuck that shit. I know that doesn't. It doesn't offend me, but it's The. It's the fake shock at a penis. Like, again, you don't have to like it. I believe that you don't like it. I think that you're straight. I think that you. It.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Jim Norton

The idea of doing something like that probably disgusts you, and I'm fine with that.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Jim Norton

But it's this whole, like, whoa, bro. It's like that. It's like, shut your face.

Mark Gagnon

I thought the shock was showing nudes of your wife like that.

Andrew Schulz

That's kind of what I thought.

Jim Norton

That's a fair point. But I know her well enough to know, believe me, she's fine with it. She would not be.

Andrew Schulz

Does it. Does it work as well, the penis when she's taken the hormones?

Jim Norton

I mean, I spent a lot of money on immigration lawyers, and you wouldn't do that if it didn't. Okay,

Andrew Schulz

You know, you gotta call up Trump. Like, we need to get her out of here. This was in Norway.

Jim Norton

Hey, I. You know, we did it really legally. It was a frustrating process, but you learn a lot about immigration. We did it 100% by.

Andrew Schulz

Weren't you living in, like, Montreal for a year and nobody knew or something?

Jim Norton

15 months. I went up there during the pandemic. I heard that they were going to close the border, so I just drove up one day.

Andrew Schulz

I can't be without this safety. I know.

Jim Norton

Not at all. Please. I'm addicted. Come on, folks. Get your tickets. But no, I. I had fallen in love with. At first, it was just about, you know, sex. I was attracted to her.

Andrew Schulz

How did you guys even meet? She's not from here.

Jim Norton

She sent me an email because I had always talked about this stuff. It was like a Facebook message. I'd always talked about this stuff in interviews.

Andrew Schulz

Right.

Jim Norton

And most, you know, a lot. I've got a lot of messages from girl. Hey, I'm so happy you talked about this. And nice to hear somebody be honest. And she sent me a message and we just started talking. But then she wasn't allowed to come and visit because they thought she was just going to live here illegally, which she wouldn't have. But again, immigration can be tough sometimes if you're under a certain age, they think you're going to. So we just had to talk every day. And we became very close over the next couple of eight months. And then I finally booked gigs overseas to meet her. But I kind of started falling in love with her through talking to her before we ever had any intercourse. She's Norway. Norway. So getting to know each other. Yeah, we definitely talked earlier I mean, there's a lot of, A lot of Skype sex talk, but it was also like, you just became a real relationship. And it wasn't just somebody who I was gonna have sex with, so I just fell in love with, with, with her, so.

Andrew Schulz

And did she embrace your deviancy? Was there judgment of any of this?

Jim Norton

She didn't judge it at all.

Andrew Schulz

She's still a wife at the end of the day. Like, there's, there's a certain point in time where they're like, we're not doing any of that anymore.

Jim Norton

There are certain differences and there are certain complete similarities. She's been very open. But my ex girlfriend, who was biologically a woman, was not at all thrown off by, like I said, the one who was a dominatrix.

Andrew Schulz

She didn't.

Jim Norton

She knew all my secrets.

Andrew Schulz

But she's in the biz though.

Jim Norton

She was when I met her, but then she got out and then just changed her life completely. Right, she got out.

Andrew Schulz

And you said she went back to school or something?

Jim Norton

Went back to school, started making visits, film, like, you know, and then she's a hustler, man. She works her ass off. She got into the restaurant business. Like, she did so much with her life, like, you know what I mean?

Andrew Schulz

Like.

Jim Norton

But no, she didn't judge any of it either. I couldn't have been with somebody who judged it. I'm bored with somebody who judged. I dated a woman once and I was so attracted to her, but there were certain things about my past, and she's like, you can never tell me that again. And I remember in my mind going, I will never, never be with this person again. I wasn't angry and I wasn't offended.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Jim Norton

But I'm like, I'm not gonna ashamed of this.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah, you felt ashamed?

Jim Norton

No, like, she wanted me to, but I didn't feel ashamed. I was more annoyed. Like, how dare you. I know you're dirt.

Andrew Schulz

Well, she feels discomfort.

Jim Norton

Yeah. She was very uncomfortable with it.

Andrew Schulz

Right.

Jim Norton

Not that my wife is proud of my history. I mean, but again, we all have a history, right? No matter how nice a girl, you and your wife are a little bit different. But you got are rare exceptions. You know what I mean? That's a rare exception.

Alex

I'm curious, do you ever. At what age did she transition?

Jim Norton

I think she was about 15. She started, but in Norway, it's a different process. It's. You have to be diagnosed before they give you anything. And I think you have to live in that lifestyle as a year dressing that way and living that way to see if it's legit for you or if you're somebody who is just stumbling into it because you don't know who. Who you are. Like, that's. You know what I mean? Like right now when you know, you see. Because whatever the. The personality of the day is, people will accidentally stumble into, like, dude, people in the. In the 90s, it was emo, and in the 80s, it was devil worship.

Andrew Schulz

Yes.

Jim Norton

And there were the people who legitimately are emo and. But then there's people who weren't.

Andrew Schulz

We're so tribal that sometimes we can adopt certain trends that can have, you know, negative impacts long term. So you have to give people a

Alex

little bit of social contag. Contagion. Even if there's a contingent of people that are legitimately assertive 100%.

Jim Norton

And there are real trans people. I've known a lot of them, and I've known them for years, and I know who they are, and they're real. You're a real transgender person. And then you have somebody else who comes in by no intention, and they think they are, but they're a little confused and. Oh, yeah, that. And they think they fall under an umbrella in some weird way.

Andrew Schulz

Well, there's also, like, a social reward for it. Like, you know, if you're like a straight white person in Hollywood and you go, well, I'm actually non binary. It's like your way out of straight whiteness.

Jim Norton

Yeah.

Andrew Schulz

Which might be like the bad guy in progressive ideology.

Jim Norton

I'll tell you what. There's no reward in the business for being a white guy who blinks a lot who marries one.

Andrew Schulz

Oh,

Jim Norton

there is no Hollywood reward, but I knew there wouldn't be, and I'm okay with it.

Alex

Is it ever a strange feeling seeing photos from before the transition? I mean, Grant's a little different because it is.

Jim Norton

Yeah. When she was younger.

Andrew Schulz

Do you guys have childhood pictures of up in the apartment?

Jim Norton

I think she has one. Yeah. And it's. It's very.

Alex

What is it?

Jim Norton

Feeling disconnect. I can't connect that to the person I'm married to. Not because I'm angry about it, but I just.

Andrew Schulz

So you have a problem with her past too?

Jim Norton

I don't judge it. I'm just like, I really understand this, but it's never. It's never like a bad thing. I. It's just hard for me to. To in my mind, marry, connect those two people. I didn't her when she transitioned. I knew her after she transitioned. But she's very logical about this stuff. And I respect her brain a lot. Like, she's more conservative about it than I am, and she's actually changed my opinions in certain ways.

Andrew Schulz

What do you mean by that?

Jim Norton

Meaning that she's like, again, people should be diagnosed, and everybody who goes in for it is not exactly. She thinks that you should have to have a diagnosis because she did, and to get on hormones and to have surgeries. There should be a certain age. So you. And I think you should be a certain age, too. Just so you've worked through maybe making a mistake.

Andrew Schulz

Like, 100.

Jim Norton

Yeah. You know, I don't think it's irrational to say that.

Andrew Schulz

No.

Jim Norton

The problem is we just can't be shitty to people who say they are. That, like, that's another problem is, like, you force trans people into this position because you treat them horribly and you're cruel to them, and then you wonder why they go, hey, you. If you don't honor my pronouns, you're fine.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Jim Norton

So this got to be a. A balance there. Like, you got to at least be respectful and treat people with dignity.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Jim Norton

If you want them to. To be logical and walk through this slowly. Yeah, that's how I see it.

Mark Gagnon

With all due respect. Does she still have the piece?

Jim Norton

Oh, does she?

Mark Gagnon

And now, is she. Is she planning on cutting it off?

Andrew Schulz

Not with Jim's money.

Jim Norton

Not with my money. And if she does, hey, I'll miss her. I love her as she is. I don't want her to change anything.

Alex

Really?

Jim Norton

Yes. And some people. Again, there's trans people who say, oh, then you don't really love her if you. No, that's just not true. If I love her.

Andrew Schulz

You only really love her. What?

Jim Norton

Yeah, I love her. How she is is how I love her.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Jim Norton

So if you marry somebody and they have a vagina and they go, I'm gonna transition and get a dick. You don't love them if you don't want that. I mean, come on, stop. People get so obsessed in the jargon, and it's just. It's silly.

Andrew Schulz

Oh, that's interesting. Wait, what?

Mark Gagnon

No. Cause I'm like, what if you're with someone and they gain some weight or whatever?

Jim Norton

It's like, same thing, goodbye, hit the road, fat.

Alex

So there is a reversibility with that. Whereas, like, some type of gender reassignment surgery is not.

Jim Norton

That's right. But she doesn't want to do it. She likes how she is.

Andrew Schulz

Is there. Is there, like. Is there like, a hierarchy or scrutiny within the community when people get, like, the full surgery or when they keep the part.

Jim Norton

Good question. I don't know. I mean, that I don't know the answer to, because my interaction. I've known so many trans people over the years, but I've never gotten involved in activism. I. I just. And there's nothing wrong with it, but I just live my life. Like my job. I've lost a lot of fans because of it.

Andrew Schulz

Really?

Jim Norton

Yeah, I'm okay with that. Like, but I don't preach about it. Like, I don't know why they would go anywhere. Like, I've never messaged. I don't lecture like people.

Andrew Schulz

So you talked about these stories for decades, never an issue. And the second you marry one, now it's like, oh, I thought he was kidding.

Jim Norton

No, you didn't. No, you didn't. And I don't. And my material is still good. Like, I mean, I try to be funny, and when I talk about it in my act, I don't lecture. My job is not to change your opinion. My job is to live my life and give you my. Here's the report. Here's what's going on. Do whatever the fuck you want and make them laugh. Make you laugh. Because if you're lecturing, then you're not doing standup.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah, it's awful.

Jim Norton

Who the fuck wants to get. Who wants to go to laugh and hear some boar standing up there scolding them? I want you to laugh at, like, what I laugh at in my life.

Andrew Schulz

Exactly right.

Alex

It's an interesting paradigm. Are there any things relationally with a trans woman that are different than a biological woman outside of the obvious?

Jim Norton

No. The nagging, the fucking. I didn't. I didn't go shopping this week. Can we just order food? It's exactly the same.

Alex

Can she pick a restaurant quickly?

Jim Norton

No. No, she can't. No, she can't. No. It's really. Is the same personal relationship I've had with anyone I've dated, any woman I've dated. And Nikki, there is no, I'm not like, whoa, this is a lot. Again, like you said, the obvious and the challenges. And you have to worry about when you're gonna travel. You have to think about, can I go to this destination? Is this safe for her? Oh, really? Yeah. And when you're out in public, you're like, is somebody going to say something? Am I going to have to?

Andrew Schulz

Has that ever happened?

Jim Norton

No, not really. A couple of looks or comment, but very rarely. And I can't even think of a comment. Comment I've ever heard.

Alex

Are there countries you've Avoided.

Jim Norton

Like I won't go in the Middle East. But again, only with her. I wouldn't. Because again, this wouldn't be good.

Mark Gagnon

Cuz like her passport still is male.

Jim Norton

No, it's female. Cuz she's from Norway. Norway used female passport. Yeah. Norway is different. And she's got a female passport. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For a long time. So she's, she's good there. But even if they had to change it, I wouldn't like it. But you know.

Mark Gagnon

And now a little crazy, but. Does she bend you over?

Jim Norton

No. Oh no. And it's not out of masculinity. I'm like, I just, I'll wind up in the hospital.

Alex

It's for safety.

Andrew Schulz

You got to understand, you're blowing Alex's mind right now.

Jim Norton

Like so he. So.

Andrew Schulz

But he's probably just like a little scared to ask questions. But you, you are with an absolute open book. He's probably one of the most unique individuals in combination comedy in that way. So you could probably ask him anything.

Alex

Circumcised.

Jim Norton

No. Whoa, Unclipped. Wow. I am circumcised.

Alex

That's right.

Jim Norton

European. Yeah, she's an unclipped gal, you know, Typical. Yeah. The white picket fence, the wife with an uncut dick, you know, it is.

Alex

Well, Americans should get circumcised. So I'm with you.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Jim Norton

Yeah. I wish people didn't either.

Alex

No, I just mean women specifically.

Jim Norton

Oh, no. But I'm actually trying to push the clitoral circumstances. Circumstances I believe very strongly in that. I'm like, enough with this pleasure. I'm a big proponent of lopping that off and get to work.

Mark Gagnon

And now is your relationship open?

Jim Norton

No.

Mark Gagnon

Oh, so you're not like still sexual addict?

Jim Norton

I mean, I am. I still watch porn and all that stuff, but I'm not sleeping with anybody.

Andrew Schulz

But you gotta fight it, right?

Jim Norton

Yeah. Yes and no.

Andrew Schulz

What if like a ad comes up for like, like, you know, some dating service or some like.

Jim Norton

I mean, I look at the ad and I can get turned on by it. But again, I was kind of running out a lot of my behaviors when I first met her because I just. As they say, you run out your string, whatever it is, you just kind of like after a while, you know, I mean, I still love dirty talk and I still love like watching porn and stuff like that. But as far as actively people and all, like you do enough of it, you're like, I've done it. Do you miss vagina at all sometimes? Sure. I love, I loved it. I Love vagina.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah, but even.

Jim Norton

But you know, married guys, a lot of times will, like, say to me, like, you don't have any. Like, yeah, but you guys rolling up on me. One. Nothing. I mean, that's how I look. Yeah, one more than I do.

Alex

And we don't.

Jim Norton

We all. We all kind of zero. Of course. I mean, we all miss many vaginas. I have that in common with every married guy. I miss 99.9% of the pussies on earth. I miss a. I miss seeing them. I miss seeing the panties pictures. Are they big? Are they small? She have big lips and small lips. You know what I mean? It'd be funny if you guys were all just filed out. I was still talking. Is the clit big?

Andrew Schulz

And what about her? Like, now she's got a public, you know, Persona. Like, do people hit up her? Is that.

Jim Norton

I'm sure? Sometimes. Yeah. But she's pretty clear. She's not, you know, she's very fine being married. She's way more traditional than a lot of people would think. She's more. Much more like, just wants to be a married person. And I. It's funny how people will see our relationship, and because she hasn't been on the podcast for a while, we did one together because I was allowed to do it contractually. And then I started doing mine, and she was getting a little shy publicly. But people will say, like, ah, your wife is full. And I'm like, no, she's home, she's doing good, and everything's fine. Like, you reading into the relationship wrong.

Alex

Are there cultural elements that make things tricky? Like the fact she's from Norway? Does that add a ripple or does it make it easier in any way?

Jim Norton

No, it's because they're very much open over there. Like, they don't care that much. I mean, the citizens are a little. I mean, they're conservative, too, but, yeah, no problem. We don't have that big of a cultural difference. Again, if she was, like, from Turkey or somewhere, like, you know, I mean, somewhere maybe a little more religiously or Islamic, like, there might be a little more difficulty, but, you know, she's from. Just from a Scandinavian country, so.

Alex

Right.

Jim Norton

No one cares. So interesting.

Andrew Schulz

Have you ever talked about on stage, Stage and seen disbelief?

Jim Norton

Yeah, and I try to get into it, like, especially now where I'm not giving shocking information. So I'm not trying to go like, guess who I'm married to? I'm just. I have things to talk about with it. So I have to.

Andrew Schulz

To let people know Every time you're on stage, you kind of have to acknowledge.

Jim Norton

Yeah, you mentioned. I've done sets without mentioning it, but I have bits around it or jokes around it where I tie in the. I'm working on the thing where I'm talking about I hate the no military because of their own mentally ill argument. Especially like, when it comes from religious people. And I talk about the mental illness that is in religion, and it annoys me a lot. So I'm trying to. So I have to set it up properly to get into that bit or that concept.

Alex

Right.

Andrew Schulz

Is there ever a moment where, like, she's really acting up on something and you're like, well, maybe you guys are mentally ill?

Jim Norton

No, it's never been crazy like that. She's actually a better arguer than I am.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah, yeah. You're better at cutting people's legs off.

Jim Norton

Yes, I am.

Andrew Schulz

But you have to hold back because it's your wife at the end of the day.

Jim Norton

Yeah. Yes, you do. You have to watch what you say. We both said mean shit to each other. That you kind of. She's better at stopping them fights.

Andrew Schulz

Your level of mean is better than most.

Jim Norton

Yeah, but I've also, I. I've also. I've been. I. I've dated women who are good at it. Like my ex before that was good at it. And she. She's good at it. My ex, before that was talking about some guy being good looking and I was really mad at her. I'm like, you fucking bitch. And she's like, what, did nobody ever tell you you're not an Abercrombie model?

Alex

I was like, has the cultural conversation around transgenderism been helpful? That, like, maybe when you were doing jokes about this, like, 20 years ago, it's like, oh, you're a deviant. You're a weirdo. But now it's like, oh, I'm actually progressive.

Jim Norton

No, because it's become lectures. No one talks about it. Nobody wants to listen.

Andrew Schulz

It's not fun yet. It's not fun.

Jim Norton

Come on. Everybody's lecturing now.

Andrew Schulz

It's like.

Alex

But when you do it, at least the audience is aware of what this is.

Jim Norton

You don't have to explain it.

Andrew Schulz

This is so interesting. It's like initially, initially, when you're doing it, it's so out there and provocative. Right. That, like, it fills in your identity as this, like, deviant in a way.

Jim Norton

Right.

Andrew Schulz

So they don't even take it seriously, probably. Right. It's just like, oh, he's. It's just like a cartoonish backstory the things that have happened in your life are like so insane that you can almost like separate them from reality. And then it becomes more open and progressive. But now people are white knighting about it. So it's like, it's hard to be funny about it without. Yes, like the audience. The audience now feels like they should embrace it, but maybe they don't know where they are emotionally.

Jim Norton

I think people who are progressive like the fact that at least I talk about it and I'm in a real life with it. And I think the people who are conservative like the fact that I'm not trying to lecture them and tell them they have to feel it any kind of way or scold them for being who they are. I mean, that's just my take on it. It's not my job to do that. It's not my job to. But I tell every audience. And in Texas, you notice the reaction to the religious stuff is different in the city. They love it. It is what it is. But no, the conversation has not been helpful because it's not a real conversation. It's different people standing over a red line lecturing each other and saying, this is what it is. And if you don't, you don't agree this is what's wrong with you. Nobody is actually talking about it in a real way and like being, okay, let me think about what you're saying and let me hear, is that transphobia or is that just logical pushback to where progressives became unreasonable and infuriated? Nobody is doing it like that.

Andrew Schulz

How long do you think we live in this?

Jim Norton

Oh, it's never going to change. I mean, we were talking about this since political correctness in the era. Me and Colin were talking about this in the early 2000s. It's going to change. It's be to. To swing back. It swung back a little.

Andrew Schulz

It did.

Jim Norton

Because the generation now is rebelling against their parents and their parents are like, you know, are very delicate. Delicate with language and oh my God, you shouldn't do that. So these young kids are like, hey, let's get some Hitler videos and drink and laugh. It's a rebellion. It's also insincere. It's as insincere, as performative as the. Yeah, this whole. You, everyone's a Nazi. And it's all.

Andrew Schulz

I thought we had a few years where it was like, I thought we were past it. There was like a couple year run where I was like, you know what? We're past it. Let's have some fun. Everything's Good. It's almost like the pendulum swung too far.

Jim Norton

Nope, it's exactly it. But here's the problem. It's like saying we're past heroin. It's a drug. It's a drug. It's not a real thing. It's people getting high and getting stoned, on punishing and on arguing. That will never go away.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah. Because it's too seductive.

Jim Norton

Trans issues, racial issues, religious issues, it's all excuses to do what we really want to do, which is get the dopamine of shaming and fighting. That's it. So these are all just peripheral things we grab onto as our sword. But it's all. It's about punishing people.

Mark Gagnon

The trans issue, I still feel that pops up every once in a while is like, no trans in sports.

Jim Norton

Like, yeah, that's a rough one, because there's a. There's a physical advantage to being born in a male body. It's not. It's not a. It's not like you're less down as a person. You're not a morally inferior person. But there is a physical difference. I mean, I don't know how people can pretend they don't notice that.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Mark Gagnon

I'm curious, where does your wife stand on that?

Jim Norton

She's against it.

Andrew Schulz

Really?

Jim Norton

Yeah. Yeah.

Andrew Schulz

Okay.

Jim Norton

Yeah, she's against it.

Mark Gagnon

So who's fighting for it?

Jim Norton

There are people who. Because I think people are saying that. They're saying that if you're against it, you're transphobic or you're not against trans people having rights, and it's just a biological thing. That's like saying that if you're a middleweight, you should be. Be able to fight a bantamweight. There's no anger behind saying that they should. But I also want to see trans people be able to do sports.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Jim Norton

I also wish that there was either open divisions or another way to figure it out.

Andrew Schulz

Yeah.

Jim Norton

Because I think that a lot of those people are genuine and they just want to compete and they're not trying to hurt girl. Like, they're just real people trying to compete, but we don't have an answer for it yet.

Andrew Schulz

Oh, what's that?

Mark Gagnon

New Olympics where they can do?

Andrew Schulz

Enhance games?

Alex

Yeah.

Jim Norton

Oh, you're allowed to do steroids?

Alex

Yeah, it's encouraged under, like, medical supervision.

Jim Norton

Ah, yeah. There you go.

Andrew Schulz

Jim Norton, everybody. Thank you so much for being.

Jim Norton

That was awesome fun, man.

Andrew Schulz

That was great, brother.

Jim Norton

Thanks so much.