A

Tell me a parenting issue everyone struggles with with tweens and teens, but no one talks about Rena.

B

I think a lot of people feel like they just don't know how to connect to their kid anymore.

A

I'm Rena Neinen and welcome to Ask Lisa the Psychology of Raising Tweens and teens.

B

And I'm Dr. Lisa Damore. We bring you science backed strategies for managing anxiety, discipline, intense emotions and more.

A

We decode tough parenting issues with tips you you can use right now. So subscribe to Ask the Psychology of Raising Tweens and Teens and join our YouTube community today just Google Ask Lisa podcast.

B

We're here to help you untangle family life. Encore episode 276 Lessons from Netflix's Adolescence.

A

Friends.

B

If you've seen the Netflix series Adolescence or even just heard about it and felt worried about your son, this episode will help you turn that concern into action. We'll explore how emotionally constrained boys often are, how that vulnerability gets exploited online, and what parents can do to show up for their sons. With Father's Day around the corner, it's the perfect time to revisit this episode. This is one of our most watched episodes ever on YouTube. And I think you'll understand why.

A

Netflix has given the series a mature audience rating, which means it's designed for adults and may be unsuitable for children under 17 because of graphic content. And we're going to talk about whether you should see it with your kid. So we haven't really done this before where there's a moment in pop culture that talks about and dissects teenage life in a way that we felt we had to come on, do a special episode and talk about the big findings. Right, Lisa?

B

Yeah. No, this is. This is important and worth it. And I'm thrilled that we're thinking about this together.

A

We're talking about the British TV series on Netflix called Adolescence. It's really taken the channel by storm. Everyone's buzzing about this. In just four episodes, this limited series tells the story of a 13 year old British boy named Jamie Miller. He's accused of murdering a female student named Katie Leonard. And you see the impact that this crime has on the family and the community. The series is devastating, but it's actually not based on one particular family story or one singular event. It's really inspired by the toxic Internet subculture that we all know about and the terrifying rise in violence among youth in the United Kingdom. So it's based loosely on these news stories. I thought it was powerful. And I gotta tell you, Lisa, my Netflix algorithm the last thing we watched was my daughter and I watched the Meghan Markle latest series, where, by the way, we did make the one pop pasta, which is absolutely delicious. So I am for any Netflix series that gets my children to cook on the weekends. But I have to tell you, it was a dad friend of ours who suggested we do something on this, and I didn't want to watch this because I was terrified. What was your take?

B

I actually was pretty reluctant to watch it, too, or anxious about watching it. I knew it was a really rough story, and I knew the title was Adolescence. And Rena, I was like, oh, man, A negative view of teenagers. Like, the title Adolescence about a heavy thing. And so in that way, I was like, oh, I hope it's not hard on teenagers or unfair to teenagers. Okay, so setting that aside, I'm still.

A

But can I tell you, I disagree with you. I thought it was a beautiful name because this TV series captures what it is, like, in this current moment around the world of to be an adolescent. And even though it's the family's British and they don't look like my family in any way, but I felt like, oh, my gosh, this. This is our family. You know, there are just so many dynamics that I think is resonant to people around the world.

B

I think it's true. And in the end, like, I can. I'll let that go because the series itself, I thought was extraordinary. Like, unbelievable. Layered and nuanced and brilliantly acted.

A

Yeah. So can we get into it? I'm just dying to ask you these questions. You know, you really see the culture of dads and boys, fathers and sons. You see that culture. I'm curious what your takeaway was in seeing that relationship play out on screen.

B

You know, Rena, you actually write to what I think this thing's about, right? And this is what I think it's about, right? This is a great piece of art. Like, a great piece of art, like, means different things to different people. When I finished it, I was like, oh, my gosh. This is about men and boys and emotion and what is allowed and what is not allowed. And, you know, what comes blazing across the screen is that this dad who is in so many ways so lovely and trying so hard to be a good, earnest dad and husband and, like, be better than his dad was. He himself struggles with rages. And we see that this has probably shaped how Jamie manages his feelings. And, you know, I'll just say it here. You know, one of the things I wrote about in the emotional lives of teenagers is we have research on this that, you know, girls and women enjoy this. I call it like a wide emotional highway, right? All the lanes. They can be angry, they can be sad, they can be embarrassed, they can be, you know, upset. And we see over and over again in the literature, boys and men allow each other, right? This is very much police by the boys and men themselves. Two lanes. Anger and pleasure at someone else's expense and everything else is not seen as a valuable or allowable for them in many, many, you know, cultures and subcultures. And I feel like this TV series told that story.

A

What do you think this show gets right about the adolescent experience?

B

I think it gets so much right, you know, so just to home in on one piece, I think it really, really gets at how painful and uncomfortable it can be to be a middle school boy. You know, the main character's in the eighth grade, as are his friends, and, you know, it really gets at how small they can be made to feel, how much humiliation and shame comes with it, you know, and it's interesting, Reena. This kid wasn't a middle schooler. He was a ninth grader. But earlier this week, I was Talking to a 9th grade boy, and we were talking about, like, what kids give each other a hard time about in both in person and digital environments. And he was telling me, like, they give each other a hard time for being short.

A

And I was like, oh, yeah, I can tell you. Absolutely.

B

Yeah. It just broke my heart because I was like, first of all, a lot of middle school boys are short, and many of them, you know, may or may not ever be tall, but a lot of them are shorter than the girls, at least at that time, you know, and they all hate, or they talk about hating like, you know, losing to a girl is the worst thing in the world. So I was like, holy moly. Like to be made a fun of something where you have no power to do anything about it. Um, I think that. I think that this series did an incredible job of. Of getting at the ways in which boys struggle with feeling small and then getting at how that just creates such fertile ground for people like Andrew Tate, whose name comes up in the series. You know, who are these, like, flagrant misogynists, you know, to help them find ways to feel big.

A

I texted you little less than halfway through the first episode saying, I can't continue on watching this. This is so painful because I have a son the exact same age, and I can see everything this kid is going through in a strange way. It was so hard as the mother of a 14 year old to watch this kid go through this. Yeah, I, I, I just. What do you think the takeaway is about how adolescent boys are trying to survive life?

B

Well, I think, I think that, you know, what we see is they're so often operating with like a limited emotional, you know, like, repertoire and, and that it's got, you know, in this, you know, massive horrible ramifications and also massive horrible ramifications for them. Right. Like that, that's something that's, that's so true. But you also see like, like Reina, I'm curious, like, as your son is in this space, like, how does, how does he relate, does he relate to you in the same ways? Are things changing? Like, what are you seeing?

A

Question. You know, your book, the Emotional lives of Teenagers, one of the big takeaways for me, and you don't dwell on it long, but enough to make an impact where I paid attention is the importance of dads talking about their feelings, which I don't think anyone's ever said in that way, the way you say it in that book and you explain why that's so important. And I see it now, like, I, in the sense of I see my son being closer to his father, you know, and in a way that like he wants to hang out with dad, he wants to do this with dad, and dad's opinion matters more. And I'm starting to see that, which does. It's fine, maybe it bothers me a little bit, but you know, we'll move past that. But I think it gets it right that in these vulnerable moments, sometimes they're clinging to dad. And that's why I felt like this TV series is punctuated by these moments where you really feel like, oh my gosh, this, this is like my family. I, I, I can feel it.

B

Yeah. No, and I think probably a lot of, you know, two parent heterosexual homes, like, are going to see, you know, things that really resonate here. And yeah, Jamie wants his dad. Your son is wanting more time with his dad. You know, what I hear from my friends who have, you know, sons is like, it's a lot of watching sports, playing sports, like it, you know, it's a lot of like masculine stuff. Right. And, and you know, these guys are trying to work out what does a man, and how do I do that in a way that I feel good about. And unfortunately for a lot of them, it involves like not doing things that are girlish, not talking about feelings, which moms do. Right. More in the research we know this than dads do, you know? So I think that, you know, as we think about, like, what does this mean for family life or what, you know, what should parents who've watched this take away from it? You know, I think first of all, like, yeah, guys are trying to figure out how to feel good about being a guy. And they're trying to figure out this in the context of often having female classmates who are taller, stronger, faster because of where they are in puberty. Female classmates who are often ahead of them academically for neurological reasons. Again, puberty gives them this bump. So, you know, these guys feel small in lots of ways. And so the goal then is like, how do we help them feel good about themselves? And how do we help them feel good about being guys? Because the deck is kind of stacked against them, especially in middle school.

A

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B

You know, it's interesting. One of the, I mean, there's so many layers to this, but one of the layers was around Jamie as an athlete and frankly, like, it not going well, right? I mean, there's a lot more detail, but it not going well.

A

Which we've done an episode on this by the way, because we've heard from so many parents about this, struggling with this 100%.

B

And actually, let's take that moment. It's in our playlists. We've created playlists on specific topics and we have a playlist on raising sons. And one of the episodes in there is like, how do I help my non athletic son in a sports obsessed town? Because yes, this is a huge issue.

A

And by the way, the playlists are available on our ask Lisa Podcast YouTube channel so you can binge watch on certain topics. We put them all together under one roof. You can find them in our show notes.

B

So but then they talk about him liking drawing comes up.

A

Yes, yes.

B

But they also make it very clear that that maybe didn't feel permissible to him or something he could take pride in because again, this is gets coded as feminine for God knows why, but it does. Okay, but the takeaway, to answer your question, Rena, kids have to like have something they feel good at. They have to have something they feel good at. And I would say that is extra triple true for kids who, you know, may not be the biggest, strongest, fastest, may not be getting, you know, all of the celebrations for being maybe, you know, top of the class. Like, they've got to have something that they own they take pride in is an ongoing source of self worth. Sometimes it's a skill they've got sometimes. And this is like, you can't lose on this. It's something they do on behalf of others, right? Like that they're deeply involved in service, you know, that they, you know, do something as part of their church or they tutor younger kids. But I would say identity development in teenagers is as complicated as anything in the whole wide world. But one thing that adults can do to help things move in the right direction is make sure kids have things that they are doing that they control, that they feel good about.

A

You also see the change of generational parenting. The father talks about how he was beaten as a child by his dad, and that was just the way that things were handled. And he made a point not to. To do that. He vowed that he would never do that with his child, but he struggles with anger issues. What's your take on all that?

B

I thought it was perfect. I mean, I thought it was like. Like Reena. Like, I. I mean, watching this as a clinician, I was like, this is extraordinary, right? So the dad in the show, who is lovely in so many ways, tells the story of his dad beating him, resolving to never do that. But already as a clinician, I'm like, okay, but buddy, like, you have been traumatized and you have had to metabolize this with the limited two lane highway we give you. And then, sure enough, the series gives us enough information about when he has been in pain and when he has struggled. He gets rageful and violent. Not at people, but you. You know, I can only read that as like, yeah. And so then that's what Jamie sees. And that sets the pattern of how to deal with pain is by causing it or getting it out in a violent way. Right. I mean, how do you change that,

A

Lisa, if for a generation you've grown up, those are the tools you've been equipped with. Anger, rage, you can't control it. Can you break that cycle, that generational cycle?

B

I do think you can. I do think you can. And actually, I'll tell you, there's some beautiful work. There's a book from a while back called Raising Cain by Michael Thompson. Yes. And one of you know, there were so many good insights in that book, but this was one just to say right here, which is, you know, he talks about when boys are only allowed, you know, so, so few feelings. Everything comes out as that feeling. Right? So sadness comes out as anger and frustration comes out as, you know, yucky anger and shame comes out as anger. You know, that it becomes just this sort of like, all roads lead to Rome, right? Like, it becomes where they go. So I think in terms of, like, how do we walk this back or how do we fix this? First of all, we start with the understanding that kids of all genders have the Same emotional endowment. They have all the same feelings. Right. There are not boy feelings and girl feelings. They all have the same feelings. And then we wonder what gets in the way. So if a kid whose dog has died is suddenly smashing things in the backyard, I think one of the ways we could make an intervention here is to say, buddy, clearly you are sad. You have every right to be sad. What is getting in the way of you showing this as sadness? Why is it coming out as anger? I think that's a place to start.

A

So can you. Can we put this into practical experience?

B

Like, if.

A

If this is my son. Like, what are child. Like, how do you approach this?

B

Well, I think when they're having emotions that are vulnerable. Right. Boys cry. Boys totally cry.

A

Yes. Meltdowns.

B

Meltdowns. When they're. When they're expressing a feeling that is, you know, for lack of a better word, like, not usually allowed for boys.

A

Yeah.

B

Endorse it. So you're having exactly the right feeling and exactly the right reaction. And then, frankly, Rena, you know, and I know there's not always a man on hand to do this. I would so much rather have that come from. In your family, your husband, than your. Than you. Right. If your son is teary, I would so prefer that your husband is like, buddy, I. You know what? That a cry is gonna help you feel so much better. Right.

A

But the culture, Lisa, is not, you know, you mess up in your baseball game, and you have a bad day, and you know it, and you're frustrated, and you start crying on the field. Like, I feel like most dads are like, suck it up, buddy. Suck it up. It's that culture that we live in. Right. Is that the right response? How would you.

B

Well, no, it's not the right response.

A

It's definitely not the right response.

B

But you're 100% right. That that's what you're gonna see. That's what you're going to see. And I'll even credit, as much as I don't want to, the dad who's saying that he's probably trying to protect his kid from getting.

A

That's right. Yes.

B

You know, totally. You know, tons of negative consequences for open crying. And actually, I write about this in the emotional lives of teenagers, too, that, like, you know, even though boys can sit there and be like, dude, I would cry too. They're also embarrassed for that kid, and they often come down on that kid.

A

So what would the appropriate. What's a better response in that moment?

B

Okay, well, I think if your kid's Crying on the field. I think that loving encouragement of, like, you know, you're okay here if you need us. Like, I mean, I. This may be totally unrealistic. Like, you know, what do you think? What do you think, Reena? Like, what. What could a parent, and I'm going to say dad pull off? Because I want the dad to be the one modeling healthy emotions.

A

And that's the thing. Until we have these discussions, I don't feel like it is acceptable. You know, I think the suck it up, buddy, or you. They give a glance, you know, you can communicate without a single word.

B

Yeah, yeah.

A

But I don't think people are equipped with the tools. Dads are equipped with the tools to say, hey, this is how you do this one better. So how can we have this expectation on fathers, right, that they need to do this better without an example or a template of how to do it better?

B

How can they teach what they don't know?

A

You just summed it up, right?

B

I mean, that's a challenge. So, okay, so this is a conversation about men. This is a conversation about men. And part of why I love this series so much is I feel like it was as much about the dad as it was about anything because it's a conversation about men. So I think the question becomes, how do we create the conditions? And how do men create the conditions where they can have full, whole, and nuanced emotional lives? Because you're right, if the men can't do it, the boys can't do it. Every time we do an episode on the Ask Lisa podcast about kids who think differently, our inbox just explodes. And I think it's because it's a topic that hits home for so many families. It is wonderful, but also at times challenging to have a kid who thinks differently. And so that is why I want you to know about a week wonderful new podcast called Everyone Gets a Juice Box. For parents of neurodivergent kids. This podcast gets into the unique complexities of raising kids who think differently. And it is a wonderful resource. It is validating. It's a true community of parents who face the same uncertainties and who just get it. I've been listening to Everyone Gets a Juice Box. And I so appreciate how direct they are, how warm they are, how straight up they are about the wonders of having a kid whose mind works differently and also the challenges that just come with it to listen, search for Everyone Gets a Juice Box in your podcast app. That's Everyone Gets a Juice Box. So my schedule in the summer is a little Lighter, which means I get to spend more time thinking about lunch and what I want to make for lunch. And one of my favorite things to do is to make a super deluxe sandwich. And in my sandwiches, the bread has always sort of been a weak supporting character. That is no longer true because I had discovered Hero bread. My current obsession being their seeded bread. This stuff is amazing. Once you get two slices of this going in a sandwich, you are also getting 24 grams of fiber and 12 grams of protein and 0 grams of sugar. It is light, it is fluffy, it is just the perfect texture. It's incredibly delicious. And their sliced bread is not the whole story. They also have bagels, they also have noodles. They also have tortillas. There's a whole bunch of things to check out. HeroBred is now offering 10% off your order. Go to Hero Co and use code asklisa at checkout. That's asklisahero. Cool.

A

So I want to talk also about the wider family dynamics on this. What's your advice to families to better support adolescent boys in these years? What should we be looking out for? Because so often they might be suffering in silence that we're not even aware of.

B

100%. Okay.

A

So

B

something that hasn't come up yet really in our conversation is where the Internet comes into all of this. And it comes in in two ways, right? It comes in both in that there's conversation about online misogyny. The dad actually mentions it in a very clever way. I thought from a scripting standpoint. He mentions getting misogynistic content when he was looking for gym related content. And I thought very, very clever as a way to make the point that kids don't have to go looking for this stuff for it to show up in their feed. And then the other way the Internet comes into this is around kids cyberbullying each other. And, you know, Jamie being on the receiving end of cyberbullying. You know, so this is like, if we think about like, what's the landscape here that created this terrible outcome? It's a combination of boys and men and emotional, like, lack of fluency for, you know, which seems very dry to describe the realities. And then plus Internet environment with its, you know, hate that can come across in, you know, like a downpour. Like it's not just like every once in a while a of post. It can be a ton of it. And the ways in which kids can be real jerks to each other online. And, you know, I think that there's real value, actually. I feel like this Film or this TV series, like just gives us a lob to talk with kids about what happens online. And I would say to talk with kids about why we want them to not be online at 13. Right. Because they're just too concrete in their thinking and they don't think enough about what it means to be a jerk in front of everybody. And you know, behind your screen.

A

Would you recommend this TV series for parents to watch with their kids? You know, a lot of our episodes, we've done some on puberty and we've gotten feedback that people are actually listening to our episodes with their teens because it's an easy way to have a conversation starter and to be educated. But do you recommend that parents sit down and watch this TV series with their kids?

B

Well, let's get personal here. Okay. So I have a 14 year old daughter. I am not inclined to. It's pretty rough and I think for a girl it'd be pretty scary. Right. There's a very bad outcome for a girl here. And the series, I think in many ways centers on the boy experience. We're centering on the boy experience. I would not be in a big rush. Okay, you have, your son's 14?

A

Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's 14.

B

Would you watch it with him?

A

Absolutely. Would I really would? You know, my husband hasn't seen it yet, so I want to get his way in before we do it. But I just feel like it is a validator of so many things that boys go into that I can't talk to my son about or he'll be like, oh God, you're asking about that. Roll his eyes. And you know, it's that age, right. You don't want to talk to your parents about these things. But I do feel like it's a good conversation starter and a way to talk about why I do not want him on social media and why I am scared. Why I am scared.

B

Okay, that's beautiful. Okay, here's. You're not asking, but I'm going to give some advice. Let me actually ask you, do you think he'd prefer to watch it with you or watch it on his own time?

A

I actually think he'd probably prefer to watch it with me.

B

Okay. I think that that is a choice we should give kids, I think if it makes sense. And I'm just going to defer to people's knowledge of their kid, knowledge of their context. Like I'm not going to tell people what to do. But here, if you're thinking about watching it with your kid, I think there's a couple ways to go about it. One is, I think you could say to them, I think it's important for you to see this. Do you want to watch it together? Do you want to watch it alone? I think giving kids that kind of choice is very important. The other thing I would say, Rena, whenever we say to a kid, you should do this or ask them about something. So one thing that is true about teenagers is that they are kind of egocentric. Like, they always see things through. Like, what is this? Why me? Lens? You know? And so I think a lot of teenagers would take that in as like, you think I'm misbehaving, or you think I'm going to misbehave, and that's why you want me to watch this. So I think that needs to be accounted for, probably in some families where you say, look, I want you to watch this not because I think you're up to anything, but because I think it's really powerful. I think it tells a true story about what, you know, boys especially go through. I'd love for you to see it, and I'd love to talk about it with you.

A

I think it's a great way to approach this. The last thing, Lisa, that I feel so many parents will see this and really just cry uncontrollably is the failure that the father in particular, feels of how he parented.

B

Yeah.

A

And looking back, what's your advice? Because I think it's. You see him just struggling to make a life so much better than he had for himself. What's your advice for parents who obviously are taxed to the max when it comes to work and juggling family life? What are the warning signs or the important things during these years that parents should keep an eye out for?

B

Okay, so one thing. This is tiny. They show that Jamie had all this tech in his bedroom. You know, I'm not a fan. Right. I mean, I think there's something to be said for when kids are using tech, they use it in public spaces. Right. I think there's value in that. And it also helps us have a slightly sense of maybe what's going on there. So I think there's that. I think that fundamentally, Reena, this is about trying to stay connected to our kids, connected to their experience. And the way we stay connected is how we approach these conversations. So the way to mess it up is for an adult to see this series and say to their kid, oh, my gosh, the Internet's the worst thing in the world. I'm kicking you off until, you know, date to be determined, if ever. A far more valuable, I think, and connection maintaining and building approach would be to say, I saw this series. I want you to watch this series. It has a lot to say about what happens online. I am so curious about what your experience is, if this resonates with something you've seen, if this gets it right, what you think is missing. Right. Going in as someone who is loving and curious and invested and who may very well make a rule saying, you know what, based on this, I am now firmer in my belief that this is something that can happen later. Not because you're a naughty kid, but because. Because you're not, you're a great kid, but because there is so much garbage there that is so potentially dangerous. And even if it's just not dangerous, it's just awful that I need you to be quite a bit older because I don't want you taking this in at your age. I want to protect you a while longer.

A

I think it makes a great case and it's really beautifully done. So tell me, Lisa, what do you have for us for parenting to go?

B

Okay, so, Rena, as we've been talking, I'm very aware we're talking about this from the standpoint of the suffering of boys. And I am very aware that this is a story about a girl who gets murdered. And I think we should come back and do an episode about the experience of girls, given that so many of their male classmates are in fact looking at toxic content, misogynistic content, and that is trickling into, you know, in real life experiences. At the same time, I think we want to be really careful of sort of playing a zero sum game, which is if we're talking about the suffering of boys, that means we're not talking about the suffering of girls. We have plenty of episodes. We have big hearts, big minds. We can talk about all of these things at once or not all at once, but we have plenty of room to think about both. And further, so much of what causes suffering in girls and women is the way that boys and men suffer. So if we're not going to spend time on that, we're actually not doing right by girls and women.

A

I think we absolutely should do that episode. It's a great flag and a great point that we weren't able to get into. Well, I want to thank you and I want to thank all our fabulous listeners and viewers out there who are parents who just want to do good and do better. And next week, we've got a special episode with the Holderness family talking about ADHD and their new book. I'll see you next week.

B

I'll see you next week.

A

Thanks for joining us. Be sure to subscribe to the Ask Lisa podcast so you get the episodes just as soon as they drop. And send us your questions to askLisa@drlisadamore.com and now a word from our lawyers. The advice provided on this podcast does not constitute or serve as a substitute for professional psychological treatment, therapy or other types of professional advice or intervention. If you have concerns about your child's well being, consult a physician or mental health professional. If you're looking for additional resources, check out Lisa's website@drlisademoore.com.