A

In today's episode of Backpack Radio presented by the truck brought to you by Element, we are joined by Jeremy Phoenix AKA Smitty Werben Jaegermann Jensen, AKA Havos, a Navajo born Amish country raised rei employed grave digging, Princeton attending thru hiker who completed the Colorado trail in just 15 days on his first ever backpacking trip and has been making up for lost time ever since. In this one, Smitty walks us through completing the 24 hour challenge to three separate times on the PCT, a free solo fall from 35ft that he just kind of walked off, getting stalked by a mountain lion, surviving shin splints for almost the full pct, and a harrowing midnight ice traverse below Mount Whitney with no traction. He also shares what it means to be Navajo in America, including having code talker grandparents and introducing himself to the land before every new section of the trail. We wrap the show with tribute to longtime Patreon supporter Bill Jensen, who recently passed on the cdt the biggest through hiking preparation mistake according to Peg Leg, debating whether poop peas count as full peas, addressing the question of which direction people predominantly face in the shower and the triple crown of things you can easily live without but nonetheless should be free for everyone. But first, if you've listened to this podcast for any period of time, I've sounded like a broken record about the importance of supplementing with electrolytes while backpacking. During my first hike I landed in the hospital with a condition called hyponatremia, which is just a fancy term for low blood sodium levels. Symptoms included intense headaches, dizziness and generally feeling like a bag of Richards. This happened as a result of heavy sweating over consuming water and and under consuming electrolytes. A couple of saline IVs and a hefty medical bill later and my energy was magically restored. Electrolytes and backpacking go together like peanut butter and jelly, which is why I'm thrilled to have Element as today's sponsor. Element is a science backed zero sugar electrolyte brand with enough sodium, potassium and magnesium to help you feel and perform your best on trail and beyond. No sugar, no artificial flavors, no no dodgy ingredients. Just the stuff your body actually needs. And now they've got something new. 12 ounces sparkling waters. The same great electrolytes in a slim can built for the in between moments, a long drive to the trailhead town days or just sitting at your desk trying to not feel like a zombie. There are four flavors Pineapple salt, lemonade salt, black cherry salt and orange salt. They're Salty, bright and crisp. Honestly, a great swap for anyone trying to date ditch their sodas without giving up something they actually enjoy drinking. Free Stuff Alert Backpacker Radio listeners can score a free sample pack that's eight stick packs across four flavors with any purchase by going to drinklmnt.com trek Again, that's DrinkElement lmnt.com trek no coupon code necessary, but you do have to use the URL and it's only good for a limited time. If you've listened to BACKPACKER Radio for any amount of time, you know that Chaunce and I are big fans of gossamer gear, and today I want to talk about their newest pole, the FT3 trekking poles. These are ideal for fast packing and trail running, where the terrain changes fast and you need to go from pocket to pole and back again in seconds. No more choosing between carrying poles you don't need and scrambling for poles you you can't reach. Stash them, grab them, go. At just 6.2 ounces per pole, carbon fiber shafts and a custom molded EVA foam grip keep every swing light. They're a variation of the bestselling LT5s, dialed in specifically for when speed is the priority. If you're putting in big miles and the trail keeps throwing different terrain at you, the FT3s are your go to discount time. Backpacker Radio listeners can score a 20 discount off these polls or the popular LT5s by using code BACKPACKER RADIO at checkout@gossamergear.com Again, that's code BACKPACKER RADIO all one word@gossamergear.com for $20 off your new favorite set of UL trekking poles. This deal is only good for a limited time, so do not wait. Welcome to BACKPACKER Radio presented the Trek brought to you by Element. I am your co host, Zach Badger Davis. Sitting to my right is.

B

I am Juliana Chauncey, AKA Chaunce.

A

I believe you are in North Carolina right now.

B

Yes, I had to think about that because this is very close to the last time travel.

A

Yeah.

B

But yes, I. I will have officially been there for 48 hours.

A

You're talking with a southern accent.

B

And y' all are y' all. Are y' all in now?

C

Yeah.

B

And that's me. Yeah. No, that's sad. I was thinking that when I was coming here because this is the last in studio week.

A

Week. Yeah.

B

Because next week is going to be Louisiana and then it's live show. So today and tomorrow are my last studio days.

A

Right.

B

So there's a plug for the YouTube if you want to watch me in this room for one of the last times. But. But then I was driving here, I was getting all nostalgic and we're in that weird three week period of the year where everything is green in Denver.

A

It's fading quickly. But yes, it is a good season right now.

B

That view coming in is like as green as it is all year. So I'm getting like the best peak views of the drive. They're just really milking it. They're not. Yeah. So. Yeah. So I'm in North Carolina.

A

Yeah. The mountains will be even greener there for sure.

B

Yeah. I don't know what the Raleigh mountains look like. I don't. Not very prominent.

A

Yeah.

C

At all.

A

You'll see them as you fly over, dry, over.

B

Yeah.

A

Few reminders before we get to today's interview. First is if you want the best from the Trek, subscribe to our newsletter. That's where we post job openings and I hope to have one here very soon. We do exclusive gear deals, the best content from the website, yada yada yada. Basically all of the Trek All Star everything is via the newsletter. So you do not want to miss that link in show notes. Next is trail correspondence. If you have not subscribed to this season, I am urging you to do so. This most recent episode, or I should say the one that's coming out on Wednesday. So two days from today we learn all about our hikers gear. We're going to be talking about what's working, what's not, their favorite pieces, etc. But their balls deep into their hikes at this point. And the season is awesome. So if you're not subscribed, definitely do that link in the show notes. But you guys know how to find podcasts. This one is Drill Correspondence. Last but not least is patreon.com backpacker radio is where you go to go where you go to get every episode advertisement free. You can also continue to hear Chance.

B

Yes, you can get your healthy dose of chance on Patreon. I will be doing some fun stuff with Zach and we are in the process of figuring that out. But that will be. Or you can find me. So if you want to keep up with what happens once I fade into the mist of the suburbs, that can be where you go to stay in the loop. And if you just want to leave it at me, fading into the suburbs and you never hear from me again, then, you know, enjoy the ads or

A

still subscribe to Patreon also. Yeah, it goes to support our team and there's no ads and there's no ads and we're both in the suburbs right now. Technically speaking.

B

Technically speaking. Yeah.

C

Yeah.

B

I'm just going to different suburbs. More suburb y suburbs.

A

I've never been to Raleigh.

B

I've never either. Yeah.

A

No, really, you're about to.

B

I've never gone into the city.

A

No. No, you're in, what was it? Apex.

B

Apex.

A

Yeah.

B

But the airport's on the west side.

A

The suburb of the suburb.

B

It's like we're on the outskirt of the suburb. Like we're on the edge of the suburb but the airport's on the west side of the, the city and town is on the west side of the city. So we always just go up and down and never in.

A

Yeah.

B

And we're always so busy when we've gone that we haven't had time to just go in and see what's up. So. Yeah, yeah, I, I, I can't wait to see it. Yeah, I don't, I hope I don't go there that often. I don't want to be like in a city that much.

A

Is Raleigh big? I have no idea.

B

I don't know either.

C

It's medium sized.

B

I just want to sit in my backyard and listen to the birds.

A

How big is Raleigh? Half million. It's decent. I want to say that's like Madison esque, which I consider to be a

C

good size city town.

A

Big town, small city.

B

Yeah. Who knows? Yeah.

A

Cool. Well, let's get right to our interview with Jeremy Phoenix, AKA Smitty.

C

You're going to have to help me

A

here on this one.

B

Bourbon. Jagerman Jensen.

C

Yes.

A

Nice.

B

They were always jealous of him because he was number one.

A

There's a story here.

C

Our book reference.

B

Zach's old. You can tell the story. It's your trail name.

C

You can usually. No, you can get one more guess if you want. It's a cartoon.

A

SpongeBob SquarePants.

C

Yeah.

A

Was going by the age reference there. But yes, in addition to having a wild trail name, I'm guessing Rachel didn't know it also. Otherwise, I don't know. We'll see. Smitty has apparently done some wild hiking including completing the PCT in under four months. Reportedly doing the 24 out of hour challenge on three separate occasions and apparently more than four times.

C

Yeah.

B

Wow.

A

Damn. And apparently hiking the Colorado Trail in 13 days. And he just recently completed the Arizona trail. Jeremy, thank you so much for joining us here on Backpack Radio.

C

Happy to be here. Very nervous. I'm not used to.

A

Oh, we Got a margarita here for you. And there's nothing to be nervous of. It's just a few hiker trash mingling over some alcohol.

B

Um, I like that Rachel put an apparently instead of just an hiking.

A

Yeah.

B

And apparently hiking.

A

Yeah. I want to start with the 24 hour challenge.

C

Yeah.

A

Introduce that to our listeners. I'm sure we've talked about it before, but I don't know if we've actually talked to anyone who's done it.

C

Oh, really?

A

And. Well, there's different 24 hour challenges, so maybe we're on a different page right now. Is this the. You just hike for 24 hours?

C

Yeah. There's.

A

Okay. I know there's one with beer.

C

Yeah. The 24. The triple 24, which

A

is okay. So that's not the challenge we're talking about.

C

Not the challenge. It's just the straight. Like, I think it's. Yeah, it's really popular on the pct after you finish California and then you get into Oregon, which is. They see is really flat. It's not flat, it's just relatively flat. And then you just like do a 24 hour challenge. You just. And I did like two versions of it. One's like, so if I start at like 6, 6pm I go until like 6pm the next day. But then I did two that were like actively 24. So whenever I stopped to take a break for lunch, I would stop my watch.

A

So then that probably ends up being more like 28, 30.

C

It's like 29. Yeah.

A

Yeah.

B

They did it when I was on the pct. The nice thing about it is it's not like you. It's not like the four state challenge where it's like you have to get through these four states. It's just a stretch of like 60 miles or so on the trail. That's less elevation than usual that you can get better mileage on.

A

Yeah.

B

And when, at least around me when it was happening, it was in like a very fun, like each person individually being like, I just want to see how far I could go. Because I was like, you know, I. I decided not to do it because I was like, I could probably hike honestly further if I just do two 12 hour days and like sleep in between. Then if you do 24 and then

A

sleep 12 hours, like, there's a point of diminishing return.

B

That's so that's what I thought. But then the way they explained it was it's not about like getting further ahead. It doesn't matter if you catch up anyway. Like, that's that's not the goal. The goal is just to see how much I can do in 24 hours. And I thought that was very healthy.

A

What are your 24 hour distances?

C

I think they're all pretty close because none of. None of them were like in a stopped in a town. I still had to hike like an extra day or two, so I wasn't going to be like go crazy and. But I think it was the lowest one was around like 61, and then the highest one was around like 68 and change. So how old are you? I'm 32.

A

Okay. Yeah. I don't. I think a 24 hour challenge would be bad for me at this age. Missing a night of sleep would have more consequences than it would when I was 32. That's why I was asking. Okay, next question is give me this story with the trail name. I guessing obviously we learned that this is a spongebob reference, but is there relevance to your hike?

C

Yeah, yeah. It was their small recap on who Smitty Werben Jagerman Jensen is for non Spongebob people. There is a character called Mr. Krabs who is very greedy and the plotline of this episode is he's trying to grave rob a dead fish for his million dollar hat. In that dead fish's name is Smitty Werben Jagerman Jensen.

A

I don't know if I've ever seen this character in my life, to be honest with you.

C

Yeah, he's never mentioned before or since. It's a one off.

A

Got it.

C

So it's like, it's very deep lore.

A

I feel like this would be a mask I'd see on someone as like a DJ at a concert or something like that. I would never guess that to be a spongebob reference.

B

It'd be a really good Halloween costume.

A

Yeah.

C

Which I did dress up as.

B

Did you?

C

This past Halloween, did you? Yeah, it was, it was really fun to like get off trail for a little bit and not be called like trail name. And then you're just walking around Salt Lake City with the Smitty costume. People like Smitty? Well, yeah, like, yeah, it was. We were like walking around, like downtown, so a lot of people knew.

B

Nice.

C

So it was nice. But yeah. So the actual how I got the name is the. I started with like a hydration bladder. I was like, so adamant. Yeah, I know. And everyone in my little trail family was trying to convince me to go to bottles. And we were in the desert portion of the PCT and I was Like, I like. I like sipping. And then one of them had a water bottle with the hose in it. And like, oh, you can get like the best of both worlds. And it became really annoying to like take the hydration bladder out, fill it back in, and then like stuff it in. All that jazz. And for like very small portion of time, like two hours, not two days, maybe less, I was rocking both a hydration bladder and a water bottle with a hose. So I had two hoses. And there were some. There were some youngins. And this was around Green Valley Agua Dulce area. And. And they were just like. Someone said the name, you know. Oh, you remind me of Smitty Werben Jagerventures. And others were like, hey, you look like that dead fish from spongebob. And I was like, I know who you're talking about.

B

Oh, that's such a good one to get. Yeah, that's a good one to think of too.

C

Yeah, I didn't really. And I ditched the hydration bladder like very closely, very shortly.

A

Yeah. Afterwards I'm picturing like the beer helmet.

C

Yeah.

A

With the tubes going out of each.

C

Yeah, that would have been so much cooler. Have you considered it would be really cool?

B

I mean, from the intro you already go fast.

C

I really don't.

B

Okay. Asterisks depends on interpretation of fast, but why not, you know, add some whimsy and wear a beer helmet?

C

No, I mean, I actually have. I've really been thinking about it. I'm planning on doing some like, shorter hikes coming up this season. And I'm like, you know what? Yeah, I mean, I literally have the costume for it already, so might as well just go full send.

B

Yeah, you should. I'm also in support of that.

A

You say you don't hike fast, but your intro would lead me to believe otherwise. We'll get to that in a minute. There's other fun one offs that we have to touch on first, including. You've done a commercial with Alex Honnold.

C

I'm surprised you guys have that on the list.

A

Rachel's very good.

B

Rachel's really good at her job.

C

I did. It wasn't like just me and him being buddies. It was a few of us. And yeah, it was for North Face, obviously. And it was a Christmas commercial. And he was like, I didn't know it was gonna be Alex Honnold. That was like. They said, oh yeah, Alex is out shooting something. I thought he was the cameraman. They just called Alex. And you're like, all right, there's this Big north face duffel tree out near this train station. Alex is out there. You're gonna go out there and you're gonna like strike a conversation and like he's gonna invite you on an adventure and you're gonna be like, hesitant. Be like, oh, what's the adventure? What's.

B

I would also be hesitant if Alex

C

Honnold invited me on an adventure and go scale something. But I did not do that. I like figured out it was, oh, this is Alex Honnold. And he's like, hey, you wanna go to adventure? I was like, yes. And he's like, don't you wanna know what it is? I was like, I don't care. So I went a little off script on that. But did you get any feedback from that? No, they were just. We had a very lengthy conversation because he like asked. He's like, hey, are you like Navajo? And I was like, yes, I am. Because the Alex Honnell foundation started on Navajo land. So he was very familiar with that. So none of that got into the commercial. Obviously it's a very short commercial. But yeah, we went like rock climbing at a movement climbing gym. And I was in it very briefly because apparently I was was climbing too, too hard. Because there is supposed to be like, you're a climber then it's. I used to be a much more adamant climber until I got into backpacking. Okay. Apologize for my small arms.

A

Your arms are great to me. So you being a climber or have were a climber in your past life, meeting Alex Honnold must have been just mine.

C

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. It was like. I don't even know how to word it. Literally lost for words. Yeah, especially because it was like sprung up on us. Like, I feel like if I was given like a heads up, like, oh, hey, this is this commercial with North Face with Alex Honnold. I would have been really nervous and I don't know if I honestly would have taken it. But being there and just being sprung up and I was just like, man, I would have done this for free. Yeah, 100% just to get the chance. But I ran into him like one other time like years ago, just randomly and so like I'd already met him, but like to actually like spend time with him like for like the whole day was really, really cool.

B

That does sound cool.

A

What. So what was your piece from the commercial you said you were filming for a long time. What did they end up actually using?

C

Yeah, so it was just like the initial like introduction of like me meeting him. Us like Creepily getting into the van to like, take us to, like this adventure.

B

Is he like, dangling camera or is it you, him and a group?

A

No, it was like.

C

It was like a group of us.

B

Are you an extra or are you a main character?

C

Not somewhere in between.

B

Okay.

C

Like, yeah, because, I mean, obviously Alex is like the main character.

B

Right?

C

Yeah, there was I. Once again, they kind of gave us a super vague. This is what's gonna be it. You're like the stranger on the street. And I was like. I thought I was gonna be the only stranger, but no, there was like six. Six of us. Very, very cool crew. Met some, like, other friends through there and the. But yeah, so there was like bits and pieces of us and there was. Yeah, like I said, there was six of us. Four of us made the cut. I feel bad, like, the other two, but we all got paid the same, so it doesn't matter. Yeah, that's how TV goes. Yeah.

B

How'd they find you?

C

There was an advert and like online on. So I work in the industry of like backpacking and climbing and so they had like a. Something go through like different companies and like, oh, hey, we're gonna like, film this commercial. Whoever wants to like, potentially be in it, send in like some headshots and dimensions. If you own anything. North Face, they'll be cool. And I sent like, I had this like cool little green North Face jacket that I've had for years and sent some photos in. Expected to hear nothing and called me back. And so I was like, all right, get to go climb and get paid meeting. Alex was cherry on top.

B

That's cool.

A

Was you climbing fast wanting to impress him or that's just how you climb?

C

So I had this was like, post like my climbing. I had like my climbing to backpacking transition. And just like, you know, for the commercial, I was just like, all right. So I like got like about like a six week notice. And so I trained pretty hard, but I think they were going more so for like, hey, we want like strangers on the street that were like beginners. And they were very much. Of the six people that were like, casted, there were other people they literally got off the street and that joined us. Two of us were actual climbers. And I noticed when the commercial aired, we were the least featured. I think that was because we were like, we looked like we know what we were doing.

A

You weren't the beginner that they wanted.

C

Yeah. Which is not. I mean, that's great. I mean, it was cool to like have projects with you. Know Alexander like, oh, hey, there's this V5 I'm having. Struggling, like struggling on. And he's like, oh, yeah, let me show you how to do that.

B

Oh, that's so cool.

C

That's cool.

A

And then he just runs up it.

C

Yeah, it literally. Yeah, it was pretty much turn sideways,

B

stick to the wall.

A

Sorry, I forgot which way grab gravity was. That's cool. You mentioned that you were in the backpacking outdoor industry. I know we'd mentioned before we turned this on that you work for a big outdoor retailer. I don't want to say it unless

C

you want to say it. Yeah, I work for rei.

A

Okay. There's a reason that that's bad to say. I just don't want to blow up anyone's job if they're not comfortable with it. Is that what you're referring to by being in the industry, or is there something else?

B

No, no.

C

Yeah, I mean, that's it. I mean, I've done like guide work and like, other stuff, but yeah, that's like actually like selling products like Hyperlite.

B

Do you have any dirty secrets of REI that you can share? Like, as an employee? Was it REI that they said they made them all wear the same underwear?

A

I've never heard. Have they ever mandated your underwear?

C

Not that I'm really could have been

B

somewhere else, but things along that line.

C

It could have been before my time.

B

I could be thinking of something else. Don't sue me.

A

I feel like that's a really strange co op to be like.

B

There is. There was a company that they were like, they made everyone wear the same underwear as part of their uniform. I'm curious remember what it was. But anyway, in that line of like, fun internal secrets that you could tell without getting fired?

C

No, definitely. Compared to that, there's nothing even remotely close to that. It's pretty. It's pretty straightforward.

B

Come on, you guys have to do something fun.

C

I mean, so when I worked at an Albuquerque store, we used to do like Ultimate Frisbee before and after work. That's like. It's not like a secret. It's just kind of cool.

B

Okay.

C

No, we're pretty. I mean, it's pretty straightforward. It's retail. It's just. It's just the best of retail. You're selling cool stuff.

B

Yeah. Are you at the REI in Denver?

C

No, I'm the one over in Summit County.

B

Okay. Is that one as cool?

C

Yeah, I mean, it's just a lot smaller. Yeah, I feel like I'll like people like, oh, what's the best thing? Like this is the best thing. We don't have it in stock. Go to Denver. Just, like, one third of the conversations.

B

See, I feel like there's no way to not have good stories if you were to the downtown one, because it's, like, four floors with a climbing wall, and, like, there's too many things that you could do.

C

Yeah, no, they have, like, 300 employees. 300 plus. I think we have, like, 80. So it's. I've also, like, just not been there as much. The whole reason I, like, moved to the. The highest elevation, REI is ironically, to, like, not work as much, because I can just, like. Am I allowed to cuss on this? I was about to say, like, I was thinking, just go, fuck off, but I was like, oh, I don't want to like.

B

Let me. Let me rephrase my question. What's the shittiest department to work in?

C

Clothing.

B

Why?

C

It's soft goods, technically. So clothing and footwear, it's just, like. It's very subjective. You get a lot of customers who, like, ask you questions, and then you give recommendations, and they just don't listen. And it's just, like, 90% of it is mundane. Like, I'm gonna zip up the zipper on, like, a couple hundred clothes in one shift.

B

Okay. Taking out clothing. Have you ever played Fuck, Marry, kill?

C

Yes. Okay, I agree.

B

I give you three options.

C

It took me a second to, like, remember what that was. Yes.

B

Taking clothing out of the equation. We're going to talk about the different departments you could get scheduled to work at rei. You have to pick one to fuck, one to marry, and one to kill.

C

So the kill is soft goods. 100%.

B

That's clothing. I said not clothing.

C

Oh, not clothing. Sorry, sorry.

B

Basically not clothing.

C

Frontline, cashier.

B

Okay, so that one's getting killed.

C

That one's getting killed.

B

You don't like customer service?

C

I love customers when they are great. It's a paradox to, like, you know, it's like hiking. I love hiking, but I'm, like, physically in pain a lot of the time, which is why those records are those fast times are sent.

A

Does cashier just get repetitive?

C

It does. It does. I mean, all of it technically does. I'm trying to think of, like, what to say without getting fired.

B

Well, I'll give you a second to think while you think. I. When I was in high school and I was, like, finally eligible to work for, like, being old enough, I applied to, like, every grocery store in town to be a cashier, and none of them even called me back. But I had Written in my application. Like, why do you want this job? Told the truth, I was like, I think it's really fun to scan things and hear the sound. And I really like organizing things neatly and back bags. And I think I could do a really good job of organizing it. And I really enjoy scanning things. And they were like, she can't work here. She's too into it. But I like wrote out like paragraphs for each one. Being like, I just want to use the machine.

A

There's something satisfying about the beep.

B

Yeah. And the way they organize the bag. And when you're standing there as a customer and they organize it and something's like not fitting and you know how it could fit and they're not figuring it out and you're like, I just want to tell you how it could fit.

A

Yeah.

B

I'm like, I could solve every problem at this cashier stand.

A

Now the rare times I go to Whole Foods and you have to scan your in store code to get the prime discount or whatever, it always takes me like a fudgeing minute and a half in the sense of like satisfaction. I get to hear the beep. Yeah, I get that.

B

Yeah. Okay, so what department in REI are you going to fuck

C

Camping.

B

Okay. Why is that?

C

It's what's better. Like in the game of Kill Mary fuck are you like, is being married? I'm assuming married is the better one.

B

Would you rather be married or have a one night stand?

C

I think. Doesn't everyone want to like eventually be married and like have someone they can like wake up to?

B

There you go.

C

Okay.

B

If you're. But if you're fucking them only once, then it's like, this will be great once. But I'm okay with not having it anymore after that. And then Mary's like, I need this every day. I can't.

C

Action sports for Mary. For fuck.

B

Okay. Like the, like the bike section.

C

Yeah. So it was like bikes, kayaks, snowboarding, skiing in the winter.

B

Okay.

C

Yeah. It's really cool to like have, you know, people are usually a little more chiller. They have more specific questions and if you can answer them, they're cool. If you don't know anything, that kind of sucks.

B

But.

C

And then Mary would be back of house shipping. Shipping and stocking and organizing as a surprise.

A

Why is that?

B

Because he hates customer service.

C

I know. I love meeting people. I love social aspect. I mean camp. I will always take up a camping shift. But just over the years, just working in shipping, you get a piece of everything.

B

You have to put labels on Boxes.

A

Yeah.

B

Well, it sounds really nice.

C

Yeah, it's like you're, like, in your own world. As long as you're doing a good job, no one, like, really messes with you.

A

Are you back there by yourself or is there, like, camaraderie with the other?

C

We got, like, a little team going. I'm on my own on, like, Mondays when there's, like, a truck. It's, like, not a busy. You know, Monday's not as busy.

A

So, like.

C

So then you can, like, you know, blast out some music. That's probably the best part. Don't have to have a radio in your ear listening to, like, people talk about memberships and conversions and hearing entire conversations over the radio. Like, hey, Jeff, there's a phone right next to you. You can just have. Anyway, there's no one named Jeff. I'm not calling anyone out.

B

We don't hire Jeffs here.

A

This is no Jeff zone. Okay, before we get into the backpacking stuff, tell me what it was like growing up as part of the Navajo tribe in.

C

In Mexico. Well, it's gonna be really short lived because I moved when I was four.

A

Oh.

C

So I moved out to the Pennsylvania Amish country. And so that's where I had to learn, like, a majority of my English. And I, fun fact, had a slight Pennsylvania Dutch accent.

B

Really?

C

And the lisp, which I'm really nervous is coming out right now, but I wouldn't.

A

What is the Pennsylvania accent? I guess I don't know.

B

Pennsylvania Dutch.

C

Pennsylvania. It's like the Amish accent.

A

Okay. Okay.

C

Because we. My mom got a job in, like, New Jersey, but we were, like, really poor. Yeah. So we didn't live near New Jersey. We're like, an hour and a half away. So it's like, down south near Lancaster. Yeah.

A

I'm picturing Kingpin right now. The Amish from that.

C

Yeah, we weren't, like. We weren't like, smack dab in the heart of Amish country, but, you know, when you're, like, out playing with kids, like, Amish kids and, like, poor Navajo kids have a lot in common, you know?

B

The Pennsylvania Dutch language is a uni, a unique dialect that evolved from Palatine German mixed with English loan words. While older generations and the old, older Old Order Amish still speak it, most descendants now speak only English, but it's, like, different words. So, like, they were. When we were on the at, there was a couple of Amish women washing things with a clothing line, like, near a shelter or something. Craziest thing to walk up on. And they were talking to each other. And I stood there for a second and I was like, I can't understand them. And I'm like, hitting my ears, like, what's wrong with you?

A

Is that the accent or just different?

B

I think they were speaking full on Pennsylvania Dutch, and it's not easy to understand.

A

So. Can you speak?

C

No. Neither. No, I mean, you know, you know, some words, and I don't know if they're like, actual, like, Pennsylvania Dutch or if they're just like, Appalachian.

B

Appalachian, Pennsylvania Dutch. Most strongly represents German or most strongly resembles German.

C

Yes.

B

So it would sound more like German than it would English.

C

Yeah. Yeah.

B

I would imagine.

C

There's a couple words I use every now and again. They're like, from that era, like, Like Cy Goglin. So you.

A

I'm guessing at 4, you probably don't have any memories or maybe like, really faint memories?

C

No, I. I have a lot of memories. I can remember back pretty. I mean, at least I think, like, pretty clearly until like, I was like, three onwards.

A

Oh, that's a great memory of.

C

Much better than me.

A

I don't know, Even when I first came online, it might have been like, 24 or so.

C

Yeah, well, I mean, it's just like, you know, very much like culture shock, like, just being. Because we moved at, like, in the middle of, like, I mean, like, of like the semester. I wasn't like, in school, but it was like, you know, I went to daycare and then we're like, all right. We just said, we're like, we're on a way. And I was like, cool. I thought it was like, going to, like, somewhere fancy, like Albuquerque. But no, it was 2,000 miles across the country, and we just never, never came back.

A

What prompted the move?

C

My mom had just graduated college and she got a job as a civil engineer. And the best paying job was in New Jersey. And she saw that it was like New Mexico, unfortunately, has been pretty low with the education system. And so she, like, saw the opportunity and she took it. And so my whole family, me, my brothers, my sister, my dad, all moved out.

B

Wow.

A

Did you get to grow up romping around in the Appalachians?

C

Oh, yeah. I remember very clearly, like, wanting to go further and further on this trail. And little did I know, the trail just kept going for like a thousand miles and each, well, thousand miles south and then like 700 miles north. I didn't know that, but I always thought I was like, I'm gonna get to the end of this trail. Never did, but hopefully will someday.

B

Imagine as a kid, every day you're just going a little further. Like, man, this trail's gonna end soon.

A

Yeah, I'll get there eventually.

B

Before we move too far away from the Pennsylvania Dutch, I have a list of words if you want to guess what they mean.

A

Yeah, I'll know this.

B

Okay, I'll start easy. Gouda dog.

A

A hot dog.

B

Good morning or good day. Sorry. Good day. Good day. Okay, next one. Mock snicks.

A

My snacks.

B

Doesn't matter or it's irrelevant. Next one. Nick's newts.

A

Your snacks.

B

A misbehaving child. Doppelk.

A

Similar.

B

Clumsy or awkward?

A

I was going with, like, dapple gangers

B

with a similar sounding for hoodlid.

A

Foreskin.

B

Completely confused, mixed up or messy?

C

Yeah, it's foreskin.

A

Snickle, Fritz, Dingleberry.

B

A playful word for a mischievous child or troublemaker. So I guess a schniggle fritz and a Nick's newts are the same. Sure. Out, in, out to turn off, as in out in the lights. And then last one, count it. Rushing, sweating, squirming, wriggling, or being unable to sit still. Okay, so I think that answers. If we would understand it if they spoke it to us.

C

Not even.

A

There's not.

B

Zach would just think they were talking about foreskin.

C

Yeah, sweating.

B

Usually most people are.

A

Happens to the best of us. All right, so then give us the transition from life in Pennsylvania, New Jersey, to what got you into the outdoors. I mean, it sounded like you were already playing in the outdoors, but, like, I guess. Seriously backpacking?

C

Yeah, it was kind of just like. Kind of like I said, with, you know, your kids, like, you're like, oh, I wonder how far this trail goes. And then you just, like, keep on going and going. And I feel bad. I don't have any, like, really profound or prodigious, like, reasoning. I was just like, I like hiking, and I'm just gonna go and try it to, like, its most extreme levels, which is like, backpacking. And this was like. It was like before, like, the movie Wild came out. And so, like, I went on, like, it's when I did, like, Colorado. I don't know what year the movie came out, but, yeah, kind of just, like, just kept. Unfortunately, I have a lot of injuries and a lot of surgeries, so it's not just backpacking. I, like, keep going further and further. Cause, I mean, I've, like, I used to free solo with, like, rock climbing.

B

And how high would you free solo?

C

My record on a successful attempt was probably somewhere in, like, the 50, 60 range, which is almost a full pitch.

B

And an unsuccessful attempt.

C

35ft.

B

Are you telling me you've fallen from 35ft?

C

Yeah. Luckily it rained the night before, so the ground was pretty soft. And then I was at a place called.

A

I would have assumed unsuccessful meant like you just gave up short of your goal.

C

No, no, no.

B

How else would it be unsuccessful? Yeah, exactly. But you don't have a rope, so what are you gonna down climb if you're tired? You're not gonna down climb.

A

I know nothing about climbing down.

C

Climbing down. Climbing is way harder. Climbing up, it's kind of like. Yeah, no, it's just way harder. Okay. But I was on a place called Cattle Call Wall in Jemez Springs.

A

30ft. Feels like that's far enough to just absolutely up your like.

C

Oh yeah.

B

Add one of me on top of what you just said.

C

Yeah, it's.

B

It's like seven me's stacked.

C

Yeah. Well, most like residential houses like here in Denver permitting is like 26ft for

B

the top of the second floor, just

C

like for like single stories. Once you had go past that, then you have to like get more permitting and all that. I have a small degree. I studied architecture, so I know some stuff. Anyway, walk me through this fall. I was at a place called Catocol Wall, which is really close to the road. It's like, it's literally a stone's throw away, like maybe 20 meters. And it's a very well trafficked area. And it's like this volcanic rock, so it's really prickly and it really hurts your fingers. But it's also really stable and sturdy and there's a lot of established routes. And then I was just like, oh, there's like this section that doesn't have any bolts and there's like a. When you get to the top, you can just like there's a hill and walk around. And so I like was going on this and then obviously didn't have bolts, so it wasn't as trafficked. And then basically it's got it like going for another reach and then the, the one hand I had on just popped off.

A

Like the rock came loose or you just slipped.

C

No, the rock came off.

B

Whoa.

C

Yeah.

B

Do you remember falling?

C

Oh, yeah, it was. I mean it's, it's. It wasn't as scary as like a really like my largest fall ever was like 50ft. That was like on. On rope. Are you a cat?

B

No. Let's finish this one first.

C

But. Yeah, no but like, but like that.

B

What was the belayer doing

C

for which

B

you fell 50ft while on a Rope.

C

Oh, I was like bringing up slack to clip in. I'm also like a pretty heavy, heavy guy. And I was already like almost above.

B

I was.

C

I was above 100ft and then. So 50ft sounds like a lot. I mean, it is a lot, but. But it was like, it was less than half of what I was doing.

B

But you didn't hit the ground on that much.

C

No, no, no, no, no. That was like, I was caught and that was like cobblestone. So it was like somewhat expected that pieces are going to fall, but it was mainly because I was like both heavy and I was going in for a clip, so, like, they were giving me slack.

A

Yeah, but this 35 foot fall ends with you on the ground.

C

Yeah, no, no, it's definitely on the ground.

B

Are you walking it off?

C

Yes. I had a pinched nerve in my lower back and that's all that I like, I had a. I don't know why, but I did have a crash pad. Like it was going to do anything. I missed it. And there were people. It's like I said, it's a really popular climbing spot in the summer. And there were people there and they were freaking out. And I was kind of just like laying there and I was just kind of like, you know, going through like, you know, if you had like a really bad crash on like a bike or like snowboarding or skiing, they like tell you like, flex your muscles. And I was like doing that. Then I was like flexing like, you know, like the lower half. And I was like, oh, yep, that hurts. And then I was like, kind of slowly got up and I was like, all right, it's not bad. Like, I don't think there's anything broken. And so these people rushed over and I said, hey, you think you can take my stuff to my car? And they're like, yeah, do you want us to drive you to hospital? I was like, no, no. I like, I think it's like 20 minutes away in White Rock. And I like, drove to the hospital.

B

Okay.

A

You are a cat.

C

That's crazy.

B

I was gonna say, in terms of your theory, we've got falls from very high distances. If you walk off. Doesn't like customer service.

C

That's a cat.

B

Cats don't like that either. So, yeah, I think we're on to something.

A

Splash water in his face.

B

Quick, show him a dog.

A

Do you have any theories or speculation as to how you didn't yourself up way worse? I know you mentioned the soft ground, but I feel like there has to be something else. Yeah, like how soft an angel landed?

C

Well, it was. I mean, I obviously I got very lucky that I landed with my lower body first and did kind of like this weird, like, rolling motion. You know when they, like, teach you like, stunt work or whatnot, they tell you, like, aim for your hips first.

B

Have you been taught stunt work?

C

Yes.

B

Oh, they're next.

C

Well, yeah, Well, I have like a bucket list of jobs that I've been working through for like 11 years. Okay. Yeah.

A

But do you think that saved you your background in stuntman stuff, like knowing how to fall?

C

Well, it's just like, just life, you know, through, like when you're a kid, like, I've broken my right arm three times and then one of them was, like, from a very stupid, like, three foot fall off icy ledge.

A

Yeah, that story makes more sense than 35ft with no broken bones.

C

Yeah, like that would. But I was like. Because I just put my arm out and I just put all the pressure right there. And I remember like the doctor like, going in surprising detail of like, what I should do next time. And I was like, I actually listened as a little, like 9 year old. And so I was like, oh, how should I fall?

B

You also don't seem phased by this fall. Like, you also very nonchalant, like, yeah, it was fine.

C

Oh, no. I'm like, really afraid of heights.

A

But it's like, were you before that or is that.

C

No, it's been like a. It's been a constant thing throughout life.

A

Okay.

C

It's very.

A

I'm also afraid of heights, and that's

B

why I don't climb, let alone free solo.

C

Well, like the free solo. You only do stuff. Stuff like I've done. That was a small exception of where, like, I've done things like dozens of times.

B

Oh, you're about to say you only do things you know you can do. These are like famous last words.

C

Yeah, pretty much.

B

That's how you're gonna end the story about the one time you fell?

C

Yeah, pretty much.

B

Okay.

C

Yeah. So it's. Yeah.

B

I want to hear about this job bucket list because I'm starting to think maybe that is a fun way to

C

do a career stuntman.

A

Tell us about that.

C

Was not a stuntman. Was an aspiring stuntman. I am probably too old at this point, but my. I have several friends that are stuntmen. Stunt people. Because there are a couple of women.

A

Sure.

C

Sadiqa Nicolette. I didn't forget about you. But yeah, I. So New Mexico is very movie and TV show orientated. They give like a lot of tax Breaks to like. So a lot of stuff is like film there. And so I have a lot of friends that are like in the industry then. So some of which I like actually stayed with out in like LA during the pct. And they were obviously, they were just like, you're super cool. And I taught some of them how to like do climbing and rappelling. And then some of them send me like, hey, I'm doing this stunt where I'm like rappelling out of a helicopter and they send me like footage and they're like, it's all thanks to you. And I was like, yeah, that's awesome. But not a lot of like, what do you call it? Requirements. Not a lot of need for Native American stunt people.

B

I actually can't picture that. I feel like there's a lot of like western action movies that have Native American roles.

C

Yeah, well, I'm like, where they do stunt things, I'm also like pretty short for just in general. They usually want like. And at the time I had short hair. So they want like people, you know, authentic looking and the long hair is a relatively new look for me. Okay. But yeah, I mean I very like, I did it like half heartedly, if I'm being completely honest. I wanted to more so get into like rigging, which is like working with the stunt people. And so you're like doing like the lines and the like actual like, I forget, like scaffolding. Scaffolding like work and then you like pulling people and isn't that.

B

Scaffolding is something that also involves heights?

C

Yes.

B

And you don't like heights.

C

I do not like heights.

B

Got it.

A

You like leaning into your fears.

C

You know, it's, it's one of those conquer your fears. I, I never really thought about it. I mean, I'm always scared. But when you're in the moment, you're focused on like what's in front of you and then you're like, you're fine. It's only when you look down and honestly past a certain point you're like. Which is usually like 40 or 50ft. You're like, I'm going to die from this height if I fall. So it's like it doesn't. At 40 or 50ft versus like 500ft, it's like the same.

B

Not usually what I think when I hit 50, but.

C

Well, if you're like secured into it. If I'm like, if I'm just like free, like if I'm like climbing a 500 foot tree, way different.

B

If I'm just I think higher would be better because maybe you'll pass out before you make contact. Right. Or is that too grim?

A

I don't know.

C

There is a theory about that.

A

Yeah.

C

I mean, obviously you can't prove it because they all die, but they say that you die the moment before impact that your brain shuts it off.

B

How interesting.

A

It's a good self defense mechanism.

B

What other jobs are on this bucket list?

C

So things I've done, I've done, probably personal favorite still grave digging in Oklahoma. I've done basic stuff like security. I've worked in a grocery store, Whole Foods. Pretty cool.

A

From grave digging to Whole Foods.

C

Yeah. Well, yeah, actually REI still longest job I've had.

B

I need to know more about the grave digging.

C

Grave digging is. So I specifically chose a spot that you had to use like a spade and a pick. Like just doing like a bulldozer that's just like. It's basically construction. But I chose a spot that was very poorly planned cemetery. Because you can't drive the bulldozer over like tombstones and people want to be buried next to one another. So like the husband dies 30 years before the wife and like they want to be buried next to each other. Then like that's where I came in. I would like come in and just. But yeah, there's like you're paid per hole, not per hour. So like I started off with like me and one other person.

B

Paid perhole is such a great. It's just such a great way to describe a salary.

A

It's also a great monster truck. Great digger. Oh yeah, it is.

B

Yeah.

A

Leo's big in the grave. So how long is it taking you to dig a grave by hand?

C

By hand. You know, same with like backpacking. You start off slow and then you get like calluses and blisters and it really sucks. And you hit your life for like two weeks. But then you get used to it and you're like, oh yeah, I can like. I can do this in like 6 hours, 5 hours, depending on how mode you know, depends on. Like it was a really rocky terrain. So if I got lucky I can like get like four to five hours. But unlucky. You gotta like break a rock, several rocks that are in your way and then just lift them out.

B

Should they ever give you more than one hole in a day?

C

Oh yeah, it's like, yeah, it's like. It's like contracting.

B

I know the movie holes. And they have to spend all day digging that one hole.

C

Yeah.

B

And I think that one's like six feet Deep, too.

A

Yeah.

B

It's the length of the shovel.

C

Six feet and six feet wide in diameter.

B

Took those kids all day.

C

Yeah. Those kids are weak.

B

Really? Do you think they exaggerated it?

C

Well, I mean, they're teenagers. They're like young teenagers in that movie. In the book, at least.

B

How many holes can you dig in a day?

C

Like if I pushed it, maybe three. But like, if I was like, didn't have a job for a while and they're like, hey, we need these like two holes dug, then I'll be like, yeah, I can do it. Ideally you do like one per day, but I think my record is like perfect. Probably like 12 or 13, like in a week.

B

Oh, my God. I thought you were gonna say in a day. I almost just.

C

No, no, no, no.

B

Threw up.

A

What's more tiring? Doing two graves in a day or like a 30 mile day?

C

Oh, two graves. Yeah. Easy. Yeah.

B

Do you get to fill them back in?

C

No, that's like. No, it's usually, you know, like the family does it and then at that point they usually have like, other people that are like, I know I said I didn't like customer service, but these are more customer service friendly people. They wear the same thing.

B

I like the dead people, but no,

C

they're like, you know, they like push it. And once again, typically this would be done with like a bulldozer or something, but then it's easy to push it. Push the dirt back in.

A

Yeah.

B

Have you ever intentionally left something at the bottom of a grave?

C

Not intentionally, but unintentionally.

B

What have you left at the bottom of a grave?

C

I had this really cool turtle necklace, and I think it just came off. And I was just like, I'm not 100% sure if it's in the grave, but I was just like, with someone

A

else's spirit right now.

B

Yeah. With the necklace.

C

Yeah. I was like, oh, this? But there's like, some things you don't think about. Like if you, if I say them, you're like, oh, yeah, that makes sense. It's like once you get past three feet, it gets like, super hot. So I did most of my digging at night.

B

Is that why grave diggers dig at night?

C

That's my theory. And so. And then I'm like, you know, you have like the land because there's no air circulation.

A

Yeah.

C

And then like, obviously it's Oklahoma. So it's like the weather kind of sucks in terms of like, just heat and just direct sunlight and wind. So if you put up like an umbrella or whatever. Unless it's like onto something really sturdy. Just blows away after a while.

A

You know, there's a place that I don't want to be by myself at night is a graveyard. Do you have any fun ghost stories or anything?

C

Oh, well, so I love graveyards and cemeteries. So I live out of my car and that's one of the favorite spots to go to.

B

To sleep.

C

Yeah, it's peaceful and like tradition I have is like to read a little bit of like Edgar Allan Poe, you

B

know, just to scare myself a little first.

C

No, just like to in case they're there. Maybe people don't read to them as often.

B

Oh, you're reading it to them.

C

Well, yeah, I'm not read. I'm reading out loud. I'm not like reading. Yeah, no, that would be weird if I'm just reading it to myself.

B

Well, it's. Yeah, that's right.

C

That's where I draw the line of like weirdness. Sure.

A

If you're doing it out loud, you're doing a community service at that point.

C

Yeah.

B

Do you find that different things you read gets different reactions? I'm really hoping you have some paranormal stories.

C

Unfortunately, I, I don't have any. Cool. Like I always kind of put it very much like a scientific mind of like, oh, that was just the wind or that was some animal. Because you kind of have to. Because when you're digging for like throughout the night, you can't be scared by every little thing. Same with like cowboy camping. Like you can't just be scared by like a mouse or whatever. Like you just have to get used to it. But I know not, not as cool. I don't have any cool paranormal.

B

So you've never seen a ghost?

C

I don't believe in ghosts, but I'm pretty sure I've seen one which was not in the graveyard or did you see a ghost? I was at the time I was living in a house. It was a four bedroom house and it was just me and my brother. And I was just reading and I had my door open and then I saw my brother pass by the door to like down this hallway. And the only thing down this hallway is a bathroom. And so I was like, hey, Jesse. No response. No turning off, no turning on the lights. So I was like, okay, he's probably waiting for me to go over there and he's going to jump. Scare me. I was like, okay, went over there, saw nothing, saw no one. So I very calmly went behind my door, grabbed out my machete and like systematically went through this giant house, turning on all the lights, just with machete. And I called my brother and he's like, oh, I'm at the bar. And I was like. So I was just going through the house, didn't find anything.

B

And you're sure you saw him?

C

Well, you know, like I said, I was like reading a book, but it was like my chair was facing the door and so it was like peripheral vision. I can't really think of.

B

Like, oh, that's creepy.

C

So I was like, all right. The only explanation I could come up with is. Is ghost.

A

Yeah. And was it just like the silhouette or did you hear the noise of like, feet?

C

No, just. Just silhouette. And I kind of like, you know, like, replay it back in my head and I was like, oh, maybe I was just really into it.

B

Just gaslighting yourself.

C

But thankfully I didn't find anybody. Like, I don't know what I would have done with a machete, but it's more so for like, intimidation.

A

Yeah. So would you say that you do believe in ghosts now?

C

It's just been that one time.

B

Yeah.

C

You know, how many ghosts do you

B

need to see to believe in ghosts?

C

Like, one, if it's like direct, three peripheral.

B

A good rule, I would say, yeah. If I'm going to outwardly be like, I believe in ghosts, I should have three encounters. Otherwise I could say, I don't know. I'm open to it.

C

Yeah, I'm open to it.

B

One to two ghost encounters is probably. I don't know. I'm open to it.

C

Yeah.

A

All right. Backpacking. So you mentioned that the Colorado Trail was the first of your trails and this was shortly after a while you mentioned.

C

No, this was like before Wild was 2014.

B

I looked it up.

C

All right, nevermind. It was after. I did it in 2016.

A

Okay. For. Yeah. All right. And what brought you to the CT first?

C

My friend. I was trying to beat my friend's record, which I did not beat. So your information is slightly off. She did it in 13 days.

A

Okay.

C

I did it in 15.

B

That's why it's allegedly.

C

Yeah. So 15 and a half. Unfortunately, she.

A

This is your first through hike?

C

This is my first through hike, yeah.

A

You did the CT in 15 and a half. Like, for people that are not familiar, that's twice as fast as, like the average.

B

Makes me feel like shit about myself.

C

It's like 480 miles. I looked it up. Like, average person takes four to six weeks.

B

Yeah.

C

Yeah.

A

Were you trail running prior to this?

C

No, just general running.

A

Okay.

C

Like, I've had. Unfortunately, I've had like three surgeries on my knee. But prior to that, I remember like randomly thinking, like one day I was like, oh, how far can I run? And the answer was 19 miles in 2 hours and 10 minutes.

B

Very fast.

A

That was your first time doing like a real run?

C

Yeah. I mean, I played like lacrosse and football and soccer, but never like actually like timed anything.

A

Yeah.

C

And so I just like, just ran.

A

Want to see how far you could go?

C

Yeah, it was flat. Yeah. Like there was, you know, super flat. It wasn't no hills or anything.

B

So surely you like, you know that that's fast, right?

C

I. I found this out like years, years after. That's fast because like all of my friends are like so much better and faster and taller and more fit. So in my head it's like, like, it's okay, it's acceptable.

A

I think you gotta shift the narrative. You are fast.

B

Also, side note, how tall are you? Cause you've mentioned your height twice.

C

I am five' eight. I am shortest in my family, which is why I mentioned it twice.

B

Yeah, Short king.

A

I mean, in this studio, short has a whole different meaning.

B

Yeah, I'm 51, so you're. You're. You've got more than half a foot on me.

C

How tall are you, Zach?

A

We'll say five' eleven every time I get.

B

Say proud of you for not saying sick.

A

No, no, no, I'm proud of you

C

for not saying sick legitimately. Every time.

A

Time I get measured, it's five, ten and a half. I'm not going to say five, ten. So five, eleven.

B

Yeah, you got to round up if

A

it's zero, five or higher on Tinder, it's six foot. But for podcast purposes.

B

For five, which. Which you still actively use.

C

Well, I am technically over five, eight and a half, but I do round down.

A

Oh, you got to round up. That's differences between us. As I say I'm fast, I'm slow. You say that you're slow, you're fast.

B

Yeah, you could say five, nine.

C

No, I definitely say five eight. Just I think it's also cuz I'm like stockier, so I look more 5, 8 than if someone who is like slightly skinnier. So I was like in my head. It's in my favor. I don't know why.

A

All right, so you have to have stories from your first thrike being frankly outrageously fast.

C

Yeah. So I mean, I used the Colorado data book before Far out, which was at the time known as gut hook. And I very apparently learned I was not good at reading maps. Or not as good as I thought. I got lost, like, a lot. And so I'd be, like, a couple miles off, and then I'd be like, I'm just gonna. Like, I'm pretty sure this is where I am. I'm just gonna cut straight across. And that's where a lot of wild animal encounters happen, because I also did it. I would just. I didn't know, like, the rules of backpacking, you know, which is, like. So I just, like, would go until I'm tired. And I also did, like, hammock camping. First time doing that on, like, long distance. So my. My day was usually like, 32 to 36 hours, so I would go. So, like, if I, you know, I started during the day, the very first day in, like, Waterton, and then, like, slowly after, like, four days, my normal day was composed mostly of night.

A

Yeah. You were not operating with the sun at all.

C

Yeah.

A

Your own day grave digging.

C

Yeah, exactly. And then I kind of did something similar on the PCT as well. So my previous very brief trail name was Moonwalk.

B

Did you not mind, like, missing the views and stuff to the daytime? Because that's the biggest gripe with night hiking is missing the views.

C

Well, because I had originally started night hiking, CT was for, like, once again, just trying to beat my friend's record. That was like, the. And the PCT was because it was so freaking hot. I started in the second half of May. Whoa. So. Which is. Yeah, really late. So it was really, really hot. So that came of a necessity. And then it was, like, actually very difficult to, like, sleep during the day.

B

Yeah.

A

What's hotter? Digging graves or hiking in the socal Desert?

C

Oh, socal Desert.

B

Yeah.

C

Yeah, it was like. It was so. Yeah. Because I. Oh, that. I almost got, like, heat stroke, like, twice. And at least with the grave digging, you're like, all right, I can take a break. Yeah, I can do whatever.

A

If you're in the market for stylish, affordable shades that actually hold up on trail, listen up. Shady Rays is an independent sunglasses brand on a mission to make premium eyewear accessible to everyone. And They've got over 300,000 five star reviews to back that up. Polarized lenses with super clean optics, durable frames, solid hinges, and clean, classic styles that look sharp on and off. Drill. And my favorite part, they're lost in broken protection program. Drop them in a creek crossing, sit on them at camp. Leave them in a hitch. They've got you covered from day one. Just reach out and they'll send you a new pair. No stress no hassle. Finally, sunglasses. You don't have to worry about babying on trail discount time. Backpacker radio listeners, Shady Rays is offering you their best deal of the season. Head to shadyrays.com and use code Trek for 40% off two or more pairs of polarized sunglasses. That's 40% off two or more pairs@shadyrays.com with code Trek T R E K. And this deal is only good for a limited time, so do not wait. So no injuries or anything from the Colorado Trail? Like, I'm still blown away by the fact that your first through hike is.

C

No, I mean, I was. I was such a young pup. And, you know, like, I would do like if it was like relatively flat, maybe a small incline, but if it was like a decline, I also didn't do with trekking poles because I'm just young and stupid and I would do like this weird trot thing. I also did it like unsupported, which I didn't know was a category on its own, but I just did it the same way that my friend had done it and so she had done it that way.

A

So you're carrying all your food?

C

Yes, with the exception of two. All right. I guess it's not unsupported. There was like a random cooler full of beer at Copper Mountain, which I think kind of goes against you.

A

I forget the exact rules.

B

I don't think you're supposed to accept trail magic.

C

You're not supposed to accept trail magic in any way.

A

Yeah.

C

And then is it.

A

But is it self supported? That's fine.

B

Forget that if you're not going for the record and have like a real reason to do it. Drink the beer.

A

Right?

C

Yeah. Well, I didn't know the rules.

B

Just lie.

C

I was just doing it because this is how my friend did it. And so I was like, okay. And then this was very much like an obvious blatant violation. I got a meal at Mount Princeton Hot Springs because it's right on trail.

B

I would still say if you didn't stop and resupply any food anywhere and you're not going to like take a title for like that. I would call it unsupported. And you can do that. Whatever.

A

I agree.

C

Oh, yeah. And I think, yeah, I knew I wasn't going to get anywhere near. I think the record at the time was like nine and a half days,

A

10 days for the unsupported.

C

Time for the unsupported. I think the unsupported and the just overall were the same at the time.

A

It Changes so frequently that I lost any inspiration to keep track.

C

But yeah.

A

So how heavy is your pack when you're starting out?

C

It varies, unfortunately, because I'm in the industry and I get really cool prices. I have changed packs so many times. I think my heaviest pack was on the PCT. It was 23 kilos, 51 pounds. And I had 12 days of food because I was like, oh, I can just do it the same way I did the ct. I'm going to take more amenities because it's a longer distance, because I think on the CT, I think it was just a little bit less, like, 48, 49.

A

Okay.

C

And then this last hike I did on the AZT, it was like 16. 16. 16 pounds.

B

Okay. You mentioned going through a number of packs. Can you walk us through the pack journey, slash timeline, what packs you went through and why you changed?

C

Yeah, so I being someone who is, like, relatively new to, like, backpacking, I did. And obviously, you know, before I was ever in the industry, you know, just like a normal person, I did. I think I had the rei. I think they called it the Crest Trail Pack.

B

It was just an REI pack.

C

Yeah. And that's. That's what I took.

B

How many liters? That was, like, rough estimates.

C

It was like 60. And then I ended up bringing, like, a stuff sack, which was like 13 liters. So it was like a total of, like, 73 liters on the CT. And that was. It was just food in that stuff sack. And so that's what I brought. Then obviously, it only ever got lighter. And luckily the CT is really well designed. And then it, like, ramps up and then in, like, some accounting, gets, like, hard and then. And then, yeah, like. Like a little kind of testing hikes here and there. And then I did I rock the Exos by Osprey for a little bit, find that the, you know, backpacks, like, shoes are super subjective, and it just happens to fit me really well. This one, unfortunately, was, like, the older one that didn't have any hip pockets, so that kind of sucked. But then I discovered fanny packs are, like, normal to wear out through hikes. I was like, oh, that's cool.

A

So you mentioned that you're living out of your Subaru and you, like, collecting gear. Is all of your gear in your Subaru or do you have, like, a storage unit?

C

I have to get a storage unit. Plus my family, who lives in New Mexico, luckily, is not too far. But I was like, kind of, like, hoard some stuff there. But I did at one point, I did count it I had 12 packs and each one was for a specific wow. Like everything from like packed, you know, running vests, you know, like a one and a half liter and then a three liter, then all the way up to like a Kestrel 80. So each one had a specific purpose. There was no like duplicates. When I did the whole car thing I had to commit. So I like brought it down to like four.

B

Where'd you go from the Exos?

C

I went to the, the lighter version of the Exos which I surprisingly didn't like. It's a time called the Lumina. Lumina is the women's version but it's just, it's just the ultra light version of the Exos. I was just kind of like oh, go as lightweight as possible. And I really like the suspended mesh like backing on it and then from there. So that's what I did the PCT in. But I originally started with the Osprey Ariel 70 Pro. So they use that, they designed that for doing Everest. It's meant to carry a very large load while being relatively light. It was like £4, which is an

A

old school pack too. I think the aerial was around when I first got into thru hiking which was before they had color on TVs.

C

It was.

A

But then.

C

Yeah, my most recent pack weighed 12 and a half ounces.

B

Which one was that?

C

That is a custom made pack by my friend Deals who just recently set the FKT for the Lone Star Trail.

B

Oh wow.

C

And so yeah, me and him did the Arizona trail most somewhat together. He started three days before me and I had to catch up. But he is fast.

A

And you use the custom pack for that as well?

C

Yes. Yeah, yeah. And I had a very large fanny pack but it was only really large because I was kind of a douche and brought a drone.

A

It's good footage. Gun to your head. The rest of your backpacking life you can only use one of these packs.

C

I'm probably gonna have to go with a custom one. Yeah, it's. What do they say, creativity is set through restrictions. Because of the size the pack is probably. He made a larger package, larger one which was probably about 27 or 28 liters. And his pack that he uses probably 22, 23. And because of this I was forced to like really trim things down. What am I going to use? How am I going to use it? And like on the PCT throughout the entire trail like California, Oregon, Washington. I was sending stuff back home very stupidly. I also sent my rain gear home in Washington, but that's Another classically dry state. But, yeah. So because of this. It was like this. It was really nice. And then if I do need extra gear, then. Yeah, you can, like. It's very much like a fast pack.

A

Yeah.

C

Orientated. Because then, like, to. Assuming you're doing higher mileage right off the bat.

A

Yeah.

B

What are some of the things that you sent home?

C

There was some. Like, after a while, I just sent, like, daily upkeep stuff, like. Like regular lotion. Like, just, like, it was my first time being out for, like, months, and I was like, oh, I want to stay moisturized. And then I was like, this is heavy. I can just like, whenever I get into town, I can just get a small travel size 1 and just go to town with that one or split it with, like, my trail family.

B

Does anyone want to split a tube of lotion?

C

Yeah. You know, it's funny I said that and, like, I remember getting lubed up.

B

I'm spitty. I get paid by the whole.

C

Nice. Yeah. So it was like, you know, small things like that. So. Because I also brought, like, face wash. So that's, like, in that. In that same category of, like, daily pleasantries. And I was like, no, I gotta embrace, like, the full, like, hiker trash. And when I did the ct, I didn't have any of that to begin with. Just because I was like, okay, this is two weeks. I can sacrifice this for. For two weeks. But then for, like, months. And so it got like, I, like, lower and, like, smaller and smaller. Yeah. And I went through, like, three different stoves and ended up going back to the first stove I started with, which is kind of weird, which is that. That was the jet boil, minimo. Yeah. Because then I went. I actually went, like, stoveless for, like, probably like, 600 miles.

A

So you've done a full, what, 180, 360 on the ultralight spectrum. You started out very heavy. Although it sounded simplistic, it was heavy by the nature of what you were doing. And then went very luxurious. And now you're back to bare bones.

C

Bare bones. Obviously, there's somewhere. There's a happy middle in there somewhere.

A

Do you think you're gonna. The pendulum's gonna swing back to finding the luxuries again?

C

I don't think so. I've had. I've had. I'm getting older, and I've had knee surgeries from, like, the very first ones. That was, like, literally a decade ago to, like, now. And so it's nice to go ultralight. It's nice to, like, if I could afford it. I don't know, maybe a slightly larger like hyper light. Because I did ask my friend Deals like, hey, make it as big as you can. And his mind is like 20, 28 liters. That's pretty big. And I was like, I was thinking like 35, but you know, to each the road on that. Yeah, yeah.

B

Random tangent, but I saw this online and I'm. If I go hike another trail, if. No, when I go hike another trail, I'm trying this. But did you see that apparently an ultralight hack that people are doing is they're taking one of those big sponges from Home Depot and they're using it as a pillow.

A

No.

B

Apparently like there's a whole article on outside about it. But I saw that and I was like, that's freaking genius because I've been pillow curious for like a year now. But I don't want to go and buy a pillow and test it and not like it. Then buy another and test it. Not like it. Buy another to buy a sponge.

A

Yeah.

B

That's so smart.

A

I assume this is. Is this lighter than an inflatable? Like what's the advantage?

B

I think so. I don't know. I didn't read the article, but it was a sponge from Home Depot and that people were using it as an ultralight hack. And I think a dry sponge is pretty light.

A

Are you wrapping like a shirt over it? Because I feel like head on sponge material, if I'm thinking of the correct sponge material is not exactly what I'm pursuing.

B

I think they have sponge that like the natural material is like soft sponge and not naturally like hard crusty left on the sink sponge. Yeah, because it looks soft in the photo and I don't think they pre wet it.

A

I have to look into this because I'm intrigued.

B

I'll try to find you the article.

A

I agree with you. I think that there's a lot of room for improvement in the world of backcountry sleep. I just tested a new sleeping pad which was awesome. But yeah, I have to give the sponge a shot before I could feel excited about it.

C

I have a small input on lightweight pillows.

A

Yeah.

C

Going back to my friend Deals who I did the finished AZT with. He used the number one balloon from Walmart. Literally the number one. Like when you're like going for like a birthday party and yeah, someone's turning

A

11 with the helium and everything.

C

No, well, no, he like he had the straw that he would like stick into it and that's also. He custom made his sleeping Pad. Yeah. Out of basketball clappers.

B

It's behind a paywall. That's a sponge. Before they take away the thing that looks naturally. It's like a car sponge, apparently.

A

Yeah.

B

It's also a backpacker article. Not outside.

C

I misquoted.

B

Yeah, but that thing looks soft and comfy.

C

I'd be willing to give it a shot.

B

It looks micro if I be real.

C

Oh, it looks much better. I was just picturing this like a.

B

No, not make a crusty dish sponge. Yeah, this thing is. This thing's. It looks plump.

A

I mean, it's a good way to get people to click an article.

C

I'll give them that.

B

Yeah. But I'm not gonna pay. Yeah, tell me what you should tell me, what you want to tell me. Oh, wait.

C

Now it's not telling me one of these.

A

Anything you want. Yeah, there's cold ones in the fridge. You want a cold one?

B

Yeah.

C

Yes. Yes, please.

B

It clocks in at 108 grams. Now. I can see it. I guess there's no payroll wall anymore. No, no. That's his Cocoon Air Core Lamp pillow or camp below when it comes to sh.

C

Thank you.

B

So that's a.

C

You guys getting all fancy with the element.

B

Okay, so the person that wrote this, Zach, says their Cocoon Air Core Camp pillow, which has been a staple of theirs, is 108 grams, but that this sponge cuts the weight in half at 54 grams.

A

Is that.

B

I don't know. I have to. I have to Google. What is grams to ounces? 54 grams to ounces. 54 g. 2 O's. 1.9. Okay, that's a good O's.

A

What is the, like, therm.

B

A rest inflatable thermal rest pillow. Wait, there's a lot. I'm guessing the moment.

A

Just the guy that works at rei.

B

Yeah.

A

What's the top selling? Backcountry pillow or I guess what's the

B

best pillow this way.

A

What's the best Ul pillow?

C

I'm gonna say the. I don't know the brand name, but Cocoon, that's usually.

B

I quoted that one.

C

Yeah. Okay. That's one. Yeah. That's one that I know that we sell a lot of.

A

I know the Sea to Summit is popular, too.

C

Yeah. See, To Summit, I think, in terms. I guess, ultralight people do I usually recommend the one that has, like, the little bit of fleece on it. I know it's not as that one's 8 ounces, but it is nicer than, like, fighting your pillow.

A

Yeah. Okay, so the Eros ranges from the ultralight ranges from 1.9 to 2.1 ounces. So in the same ballpark. But yeah, I'm sure with the Eros

B

is going to be the sea to Summit. One goes from 5 or from 3.5 to 8.8, depending on the size.

A

Yep.

B

But it's also, if you get the big one, it's also 70 bucks. 55 to 70 bucks. So for the cost of a car sponge. That's a budget hack if nothing else.

C

Excuse me.

A

So what other gear compromises do you have to make going from a conventional 60 liter pack to a 28 liter pack, I imagine. Oh yeah, there's more than just like your moisturizer and face wash. Yeah, it

C

was pretty much like I actually switched out, minimally speaking, like 50% of my gear while on the PCT.

A

Okay.

C

So pillow was one of them clothes. I just like, I had just had just had too many clothes. I was like, do I really need three shirts? And I was like, nope, we can bring that down. We can bring that down to one. Yes, we sell backpacks. So I went from like a four pound pack to like a sub two pound pack. What else? What else pillow? Yeah, I actually had like a smallish pillow. It's like the sea to summit with a little felt thing. It was nice, but I was like, it's like every, every little thing adds up. Sure.

B

And so reverse of the same question, what did you find you weren't willing to compromise the weight savings on?

C

Surprising. It was. I had like the heaviest stuff sack, which is like the big river sea to summit pack. And I don't know why I really liked it. It's just like I used, I used that as my pillow was for one thing. But it was just nice. Like I could just be rough with it. Like with a lot of ultralight gear, you kind of like, oh, this was a really light tent. You had to be like a little delicate with it. And yeah, so I like that is considered pretty heavy. It's like almost two and a half, three times heavier than like the lightweight stuff sack because it has like these like daisy chains on the side, which I never used. But yeah, there was other, other gear that I like actually I sent home and then I had sent back and it was like, like my massage ball, like I found that I. It's like weighs nothing. I don't know why I sent it. I think it was more so for space because it's a weird. Like having a ball in your pack. Yeah, it's just a weird thing to have.

A

But one of those Cork balls.

C

Yeah.

A

Yeah.

C

And I was just like, I actually really like this. So I had to, like, sent back. Had my stove sent back. I went for like a super lightweight titanium stove.

B

That's such a good thing to mention though, because I think something that we bring up a lot is that you can send stuff. Like, you don't need to bring everything in the beginning. Just bring what you need. And you can always have stuff sent to you.

C

Yeah.

B

Or you can always send stuff home if you're not using it. And like, if you need it, you can have it sent back. And I feel like there's a lot of just like personal blocks, like mental blocks, and like, just like stress or maybe anxiety around the idea of sending something home. And like, then it's gone. Can you speak to it from a perspective of the stuff comes back if you want it back, like, and how. You don't need to worry about that.

C

Yeah. So, yeah, there's like, it's like, for me, it's broken up into two parts. So stuff I was like, for sure. Like, oh, I'm never gonna need this. Like, the stove. I'm just like. Because I saw my friends that had these all, like these titanium one titanium pots with this, like, really small, also titanium stove setup. And I was like, okay, they're so fast. And I'm like, we'll do that. And then I was like, no, I like having the ability to like, fit two ramens in my little, like one liter thing. Or sometimes I would, like, kind of test it out where I would, like, send a package ahead. And then so that's when I went like, stoveless. Or when I like, I was like, oh, it doesn't rain in the desert. Send all my rain gear, like 300 miles ahead. And this is like, oddly, this is only something you can really do on, like, a really long trail. Like, I couldn't like, viably do this on the CT because it's only like, only 480 miles long. Sorry.

A

That was good stuff.

C

There is.

B

There's more right there if you want more.

C

I've gotta drive back.

B

Yes. We're all for being responsible.

A

I just want to put a pin in it because I think for anyone listening, this is an important lesson in, like, you can never just copy anyone's gear list and be like, oh, he's got it figured out. They've got it. It's such an individual thing. Because I'm kind of the opposite of

C

two of the things that you said.

A

I actually like my titanium stove. Like, that's one of the sacrifices that I'm happy to make. But I love having my pillow, which is why you gotta just go out and test the shit for yourself and figure out what works and what doesn't work for you.

C

Yeah, yeah, no, that's such a good point. Also, yeah, I switched out, so one thing that did switch out, which I did like, was my sleeping bag. I went from, like, a normal sleeping bag, which is a really good. Like, I think it was also sea to summit spark. Then I switched over to a quilt, and I was like, which quilt? The REI Magma 30. Once again, my friend Deals was rocking it, and he vouched for it. And I was like, all right, we'll try it. I was like, oh, I was on the fence on it already. But he was kind of, like, seeing it in practice with someone kind of, like, really, like, nailed it home. So I was like, okay, this is actually really good. It's just. It's this. It just packs down more. Yeah. For me, I would actually prefer the weight, obviously, is important, but for me, it's, like, the amount of space it takes up. Sure.

A

Does Deals sell gear, or is he just doing make your own gear stuff?

C

And then for friends, I think he's somewhere in the middle.

A

If he's got a company or website, feel free to plug it here.

C

Yeah, he does have Instagram. I don't know what it is.

B

What's his name?

C

I'll look it up while you talk. William. Will. Ditto, Will.

B

Ditto, Will. Ditto.

A

Ditto. Like, me too.

C

Yeah. Like the Pokemon.

B

Is it like a Pikachu account picture with some Japanese writing under it?

C

No, it's. It's like a normal picture.

B

That's not it, then.

C

Actually, I can bring it up.

B

Yeah, it's okay. I shouldn't have offered because.

C

Yeah, he should be in one of my first. Oh, yeah, Through. Oh, through Texan. Okay. My first time reading that out loud, and it makes sense. I was like, thrut exen. Through Texan.

B

Yeah.

C

T H R U Texan.

A

Okay.

C

So, yeah, he's. Yeah. So he did the PC with his own pack, and then he, like, made some for, like, our little trail family. And then he's like, hey, you're gonna do the act. Would you like to, like, test out one of my packs and give feedback? And I was like, of course. And I actually. I'll be honest, I didn't expect him to send it. And I actually bought a pack and had all this gear, and then he sent it to me, like, four days before. I was like, my last Day of work and then I was like, well now I have to use this pack and I have to get new gear to like fit inside of this really small package back. So. Yeah.

A

What are you using for sleeping pad?

C

Sleeping pad. Arizona. Because I grew up in Arizona. I knew it's just like a really sharp state. Which sounds weird. Yeah.

A

Like I remember like cactus and sharp edgy rocks.

C

You would think just. Yeah, like that's like the obvious. But I'm like, oh, I'm going to walk through these trees and it's like the leaves are sharp. Like why are the leaves sharp? And so. Yeah. And like. So I. For the azt I used the like the foldable. The accordion.

A

Yeah.

C

Yes. And then I actually cut off like the head of it. I like two panels because the pack that deals a design uses like a sit pad as the backing of the.

B

Yeah, yeah, I've seen those.

C

Yeah.

B

So that's my gear does that.

C

Yeah, yeah. So it was like little, you know. That's 2.3 ounces right there. Sure deals and yeah. But mostly I use like on the pct I use the. I think the most. I think it was one that was the most popular. The X Light by Thermores. Yep. Yeah.

A

The yellow pad.

C

Yep. Yeah. The new ones are six times less noisy by the way.

B

Yeah. Six times. Is that the, the brand approved spec?

C

Yeah. No, it says that on the, on the box.

A

Because when there was some testing metric that actually validates.

B

Yeah.

C

Because they use. When I used to sell them like the old ones, I was like, as long as you don't sound, you know, mind selling. Mind sounding like you're sleeping on a bag of potato chips.

A

Yeah. Right.

C

But it like you break it in eventually. Like it gets better.

B

Yeah.

C

Yeah.

A

What about shelter?

C

Not intentional. But I've just been rocking Big Agnes for like. So on the pcc I did the fly creek two person. Because one person's are super small. Yeah. Like no matter what. And I'm pretty. You're five eight, I'm wide.

B

I think we're about to contour everything we've said so far. My husband's five nine by the way. I'm all for the shit kings. I say the same jest, but.

C

Yeah, no, I mean plus I like, I like having my stuff in. Unfortunately occasionally includes food in my. In my tent. Yeah. And so like I like. Yeah. I thought it was going to be a lot more rain on pct so I was. There was not nearly as much. And then on the AZT I did the big. It's brand spanking new. The Big Agnes VST 1.5 string ridge. It's a trekking pole tent. And I looked at a couple of the brands, you know, Hyperlite.

A

This is news to me. I feel like I need to know about this.

C

Yeah, that is brand. So it's neither a one person or a two person. It has. For me, it was the perfect amount of space because there's like a weird little, like, trapezoid triangle section to the side that I can fit my pack and then I can, like, fit everything else. Like, just me sleeping.

B

What's the model called?

C

It's called the VST 1.5 String Ridge.

A

Yeah, I'm looking at it.

C

So there's two different versions. There's one that's trekking pole, and then there's a VST3.

B

That's the only one. I see other ones at VST 1.5 string ridge.

C

I'm pretty sure that's what it's called. I might be wrong.

A

I'm seeing it.

B

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I see it.

A

I like that they do the 0.5. Like, to your point that it's somewhere in the middle.

C

It's such a weird because, like I said, I normally rock the two.

B

Oh, I like the colors. This mint leaf color.

C

Yeah, it was the.

B

That's nice.

C

But, yeah, so that's. That's where I rocked in the azc. And I. I will admit, like, maybe like a third of the time I was cowboy camping on the azt, but there's a lot of those super annoying cactus cacti that, like, comes off and, like, is barbed and it just sticks into you. That sucks me in. Cowboy camping.

B

1.7. 1 oz packed weight. 1. Point. Or sorry. 1 pound 7.1 ounces packed weight. And then our packaged weight. 1 pound, 3.3 ounces. Minimum trail weight. Whenever it says minimum trail weight. Okay. Actually, as an REI employee, I have a question.

C

Yes.

B

Whenever it says minimum trail weight, I'm never like, oh, that means when I take off the box, when they mail it and, like, cut the tags, it's going to weigh that. I always think minimum trail weight. And I think that, like, the person writing it is thinking about if I were to cut all the, like, extra long straps and strings and, like, really, really scrape it down, that's the minimum it would weigh that I could take it on trail.

C

You're pretty close. So not cutting off, but, like, they are removable. The ones like, like the guylines that are removable and then they usually give you. So, like, the VST 1.5 takes six

B

stakes.

C

Stakes. There you go. Six stakes. I'm a little tipsy. My tolerance is super low.

A

The coat will do that.

B

One of them will do that. Well, don't worry.

C

Yeah, yeah. The. So it takes six days. They send like eight. So obviously they're not heavy. But, you know, you take out two, obviously the packaging, depending on what it is. Sometimes they send footprints. Usually those are gonna be like, you know, like the Half Dome two plus. Yeah. But yeah, you're. You're pretty. Pretty on point. That that is going to be like. You can remove, like, the extra guidelines.

A

Yeah. The minimal weight to make the tent

C

function without any of the bare minimum. Yeah.

A

Bonus features or anything like that.

C

Yeah. Can't quite fully commit to, like, cowboy camping. I've had. I've had too many. Too many encounters with, like, rodents. And one of my friends on the pct, her name is Snake Cuddler, and it's because.

B

Ew.

C

And she actually had a tent, which is also the crazy thing. It was cuddling her through the fabric of the base of the tent.

A

And this happened multiple times?

C

No, this happened once and I think it was in the first two days.

A

Okay.

C

And then we. We just ended up calling her Cuddler. Cuddles. And she didn't quite like that because it just assumed that she just, like, cuddles with, like, everyone.

A

Only the snakes.

C

But only snakes. Yeah.

A

Was it a rattler?

C

She doesn't remember. Well, she doesn't. She doesn't know because it didn't rattle. She's just like. I'm assuming it was because it was,

A

you know, what happened when she figured out she was cuddling with a snake?

C

She just got out and she. I guess she, like, scared it and it went off and then she, like, got back in.

A

Yeah.

C

She was creating the right amount of body heat. Yeah.

A

So work at rei, obviously. Get discounts. Do you get, like, discounts beyond just the flat REI discount? Like, are you getting, like, the returns and then dibs at the returns at discounts? Like, how does that work?

C

Um, officially, no.

B

Unofficially, yes.

A

How does that work?

B

Here go the hacks that I was asking for. Tell me the secret.

C

So I work in the back and one of my jobs is to process said stuff. And some of it, unfortunately, is, like, unsalvageable. And some of the stuff, we cannot sell, like safety gear. So, like, anything that, like rock climbing orientated and. But sometimes, yeah, there are. There is some stuff that's like. And I do get to test some out. And sometimes we have Like a. What we call like a gear. Gear bank. And so I was like, I'm gonna put this. I'm gonna put this in our employee gear bank, and I'm gonna use it for like, two or three weeks and then return it to the gear bank.

B

Yeah.

C

And then so it's like, I got to test out a lot of stuff. So that's my little, like, circumventing. So it is within. It's within the bounds of, like, the laws and guidelines of our AI. Yeah, but just barely.

B

I was hoping you'd be like, yeah, I run the inventory, so I just put, like, lower numbers on certain items.

C

No, unfortunately. Yeah, I shouldn't say unfortunately. I'm not.

A

That would be stealing.

C

No, no, no.

A

There.

C

There have been people who've been fired for such things. There's the guy who was like, I can. Yeah, I can tell the story. Yeah, he was, like, mailing himself. We call it resupply now instead of garage sale. But he was selling. He was mailing himself resupply stuff. And so he would, like, just take it, put in a box, and we can also mail stuff because we're the shipping department. And then he would just package it before he ever. So now we have a policy. We have to open it. We have to check all the content inside so that it's like.

B

Like after they tape the box, you have to untape the box.

C

Well, we. If it's taped. Yeah. But we tell people we have to check the contents.

B

Interesting.

C

Because we get a discount with, like, shipping, so. Which mainly comes in handy, like, during Christmas time.

B

So are people always extra nice to you because they think if they butter up to you, those packages will send.

A

No.

C

Well, I'm also, like, I purposely stay at a certain responsibility level, so I'm not the head honcho of shipping department. There's like, two people above me. But I like. The only way I can get off so much and often is by not being responsible. I'm just one of the people to take the lowest tier. 1.

B

Okay, one more REI question before we move on, because I know there's a story here somewhere. What's the craziest thing someone's been fired for? That you've heard of

C

craziest thing someone's been fired for. Oh, I got one. Yeah, he was off the clock and he. We have a fully functioning restroom multiples in the building. And he just goes out and he. Like. I don't know exactly why, but he peed on an employee's car while she was in the car.

B

What?

C

I don't know if he knew that she was in it. She was in the. Yes.

B

Was he drunk?

C

No, I. I don't think so.

A

This was done in spite. Or.

B

Yeah. Was. Was he aiming for the car, like, her car specifically?

C

I.

B

This is.

C

These are all great questions that I did not ask. Yeah. Or maybe I did ask, but I didn't get an answer. She was pretty, so it might have been kind of like, I don't know, marking zone territory. I don't know. But. But this. Yeah. One way to go about it, you know, That's. That was a very, like, immediate.

A

Yeah, sure.

C

Yeah. Because, like, I don't think he knew that she was in there because, like, I've seen her car, and it's, like, a pretty dark tint. This was, like, down in New Mexico, so they, like, pretty sunny state. They have, like, darker tints on the car. So I don't know. But off the top of my head, yeah, that's got to be. Yeah. What?

B

She reported him to hr.

C

Oh, yeah. Like, he was.

B

If a guy peed on your car, would you report him to hr?

A

Jabba see that guy?

C

It depends on who.

B

Jabba. But see, if Jabba peed on my car, I wouldn't report him to HR because I would just be like, that's just him. You have to give him special accommodations because that's just him.

A

Jabba, you're in trouble. I would like to report you with.

B

You aim at the snow, Jabba. Aim at the snow.

C

Yeah.

A

I would not be happy if someone peed on my car. I could maybe see a circumstance where it was accidental, like, if they were

B

drunk, if I had, like, gripes with them in the workplace and, like, they weren't my favorite employee. India. Sure, I'll go.

A

Yeah.

B

But I don't know. I'd only talk to hr.

A

It did have someone on my car.

B

No. What?

C

Yeah.

B

Nine years, you've never told us this story.

A

This was. I. I was living in Denver, but I was at Jenna's place, who was also in Denver, and it was kind of a sketchy area. So there's two theories. There's one, I was parked in an area with limited parking, and somebody was upset that I was doing that, so they took some vengeance. The other is, it's very possible it was just a vagrant type, but, yeah, there was shit on my car.

C

I feel like to be on the car is, like, a lot of effort.

A

That's not an accident. There's a lot of places. There's a lot of easier places. To drop mud than my Honda Civic, but, yeah.

C

Have you ever heard of the ghost poop?

A

No.

B

Ghost poop.

C

It's a. It's like a ski resort term when, like, someone who's driving the cat groomers

B

will, like, shit while grooming.

C

Well, like, yeah, but they'll do it. And so there's no tracks of, like, snowboarders or skiing. So it looked like a ghost pooped in the middle of the run.

A

That's funny.

B

That is funny.

A

Speaking of Jabba, you met him while backpacking.

C

Yeah. So we finished the PCT on the same day, like, maybe. Maybe an hour apart.

A

Huh?

C

Yeah, he. Yeah, definitely. Definitely a character. It was good to see, like, a. Like a big. Not, like, big guy, but he's like a.

A

He's girthy.

B

Yeah.

A

He's a barrel.

C

Yeah. But, yeah, and he was like, yeah, it's super energetic. So I had passed. We played leapfrog just very briefly, and then. Because I think he. Oh, yeah. I'm just remembering everything. Okay. So we stayed at Hart's pass, which is 30 miles from the terminus, and then terminus Canada was closed, and so we were. We were doing, like, a victory lap. So we stayed at Hart's Pass together with the best trail angel I've ever met, who's called world class for a reason. He had, like, wi fi a refrigerator, couches, carpet. It was crazy. But anyway, so him and Handstand were staying there with a bunch of us. And so that was, like, the first time, like, I met him. And so he, like, came over, and we, like, really talked, and. And then. Yeah, then, like, the next day, we saw each other, and then the day after that, which was, like, both of our finishing days saw each other. And so, yeah, it was like. It was like, we very briefly kind of, like, hiked together. And then that's when I challenged handstand to a handstand competition, which ends as you would expect.

A

Yeah.

C

Yeah. And that was pretty much, yeah, the last that we last we saw each other, but, yeah, it was brief. Brief but cool.

A

Yeah. From the azt, Any strange feats? I obviously did it with a light pack. Were you trying to, like, cruise that one or.

C

This was very much the story of. I was like, okay, I don't want to be as injured as I was on the pct. I'm gonna take it slow. And then I did, like, a marathon day on the second day.

A

Were you injured frequently on the PCT?

C

Yeah, I got shin splints on mile 108, which was a mile before Warner Springs. And I had shin splints the rest of the trail.

B

Oh.

C

So, yeah, it never.

A

I mean, shin splints can. I mean, it does often take people off. Like, that's a really painful injury.

C

Yeah. I had four distinct times that I thought that was, like, off trail. Yeah, like completely off trail. AZT then happened like, once and was not shin splints, which is kind of good. It was like a foot injury, which I'm still recovering from, so I'm just doing a lot of biking at the moment.

A

Got it.

C

But, yeah, no, there was a fasciitis or what?

A

You know, the foot injury.

C

It feels like it is, like, in that area. Just been like, resting it. Like, you know, you're with, like, bike, you're pedaling, you're not like. It's got a stiff shoe, so it's not as bad.

A

Yeah.

C

Going to town on with that massage ball, I love so much, but probably should go to the doctor instead of just me speculating.

B

Yeah.

C

Um, but yeah, I mean, it's definitely. It's definitely feel. Feels better. I was able to do 400 miles with that foot injury. It's probably not a good thing.

A

Imagine your foot didn't feel great by the end of the trail.

C

No, it was. It was pretty. It was pretty shit.

A

Yeah. How you doing now?

C

Uh, you know, it's. It's weird. It. It does. Obviously it does feel better, but I feel like it doesn't feel much better. Like, I feel like if I was still hiking on the azt and it's very much like adrenaline and your body's just, like, pushing through. Sure. I'm sure it's getting better. I'm. It's one of those weird places. Like, I can imagine it just, like, sticking with me the rest of summer. I can see it disappearing in, like, two days. Yeah.

A

We have an episode with. Her name is Dr. Courtney Conley. She's like a foot and gait specialist. We talk a decent bit about plantar fasciitis, if memory serves. So, you know, if you want some free. Not medical advice. Medical advice, that could be a good

C

one to check out. Yeah.

A

That sucks about your foot. What. What's your footwear?

C

Ultra Lone Peaks.

A

And you've been in zero drop for long enough to know that your foot does well in zero drop.

C

Yeah, well, the zero drop doesn't really particularly matter to me. I have really flat feet. Specifically, like, the midfoot. I did the CT in waterproof Solomons, which is. Waterproof is definitely not a great idea.

A

I don't know if I know Anyone that's done it in waterproof trail runners. That's interesting.

C

It wasn't a trail runner. It was a boot. It was a boot.

A

Oh, okay. That's a little bit more common, but still heavy and.

C

Yeah, it was. And I was running in it, so.

A

Jesus.

C

Before my. Before I worked at rai, so.

A

Yeah. And no field issues with that yet. Now you're in a proper trail runner.

C

And then. Yeah, but this is definitely just me, like, just pushing it way harder because, like, I was injured when I started the azt. I was like, I should not have started the AZT when I did.

A

So you already had the foot issues before you got on trail?

C

No, I had knee issues, but. Okay. And this goes back to the knee

A

surgeries that you were saying?

C

Yeah, well, it was. I think this is like, I just flared up. And so I had actually wanted to, like, postpone a little bit, but then I found out that two of my friends who I met on pct, so Deals was one of them. And then Rabbit Carl Blanchett. So he. They had started, like, three or four days before me on the azt. And I was originally gonna start like, a week prior. A week. A week later. And then there was this really good weather window that I had that we all saw because it was like, high 90s, low triple digits, three or four weeks prior to us starting. And then this weather window came in, and it was like, high 60s, low 70s. And I was like, yeah, I would love to do the desert when it's like this. So that's. So we. I was, like, somewhat forced. Not forced, but like,

A

you took advantage of an opportunity.

C

Yeah. Because I was like, ah, this is not gonna get any better than this.

B

Yeah.

C

So because of that, it's also like, how long is whether window gonna last? I don't know. I'm gonna push miles. And then, like, both of my friends I was trying to catch up to, they're Both, like, above 6:1.

A

Yeah.

C

So they're very fast. So I was like, yeah.

A

Can you recall from all your trails a scariest day on trail?

C

Scariest day aside? I mean, obviously has to go with, like, the day you almost die.

A

That'd be a good place to start.

C

But it was more so like a scary moment.

A

Yeah.

C

Which was. So I got off trail at Mount Whitney on the pct, and I. So I went through Whitney Portal, and my shin splints were, like, just pretty terrible. I summited Mount Whitney probably. I think, like, just a little after, like, 10pm should not have summoned it. Like, I should have just Gone over the pass and just kept going. And then the Far out app only has so much information because like it has that information like past Qatar Lake to the junction and. But then past that east of it has nothing. So I was like, I don't have any information. Fun fact. There is a very scary like 30 meter section where it's like completely ice and snow and there's, there's railings, but those railings are bent over from like avalanches and landslides. So there's just like, there's just like nothing.

B

Wait, where are you talking about?

C

This is the, the Whitney portal, right?

B

Yeah. I slept at Guitar Lake. I'm just thinking about going up Mount Whitney and railings and I don't remember past that. Okay.

C

Because I was, I was getting off trail.

B

Got it.

C

Because I was like just. My shin splints were just terrible and I was. This is one of those times that I was like, like, all right, this is it, I'm getting off trail. And then we went. We. The whole point of us like starting so late was like, oh, we don't need ice axes or micro spikes or any snow gear. So we none of us took any of that snow gear. So very ill prepared. And this section there's like famously like what, 99 Swissbacks going up and this is like the longest section of it.

B

Unless you're going down. Yeah, well, well, because from Guitar Lake I thought that there were 99 switchbacks to get up to Whitney. Yeah, I prepped mentally for that. No, it's from Whitney to Lone pine is the 99 switchbacks.

C

Yeah, that's what I did.

B

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm just saying from Guitar League to Whitney, I thought that was where the 99 got it. It's when you go down.

C

Yeah. So I was doing that at somewhere around midnight and then had no ice ax, no micro spikes. And then I got to the section that is completely ice and snow and I got part of it on video because I had like a little shoulder camera and then I had to do like this kind of faux ice climbing thing because the safest part was the driest was like the closest to the edge and there's this wonderful little ledge that has little water droplets coming onto it, which during the day is fine, but at night freezes completely over. So all the little tiny rocks and pebbles that are not covered in ice are still completely slick.

B

Are you used to snow from your time in Pennsylvania?

C

I mean like snowmen and sleds, but not like I never did any like self arresting or Any of that.

B

Like, do you feel like you handled it better with your climbing background?

C

The, like, semi ice climbing part I did with my trekking poles was like, fine. But then I. Eventually there was like a little slide thing and I had no choice but to go on that. And I was like, oh, this is fun. This is easy. But the slide just keeps going.

B

You don't have trekking poles either?

C

No, no, this on the pct I did.

B

Oh, okay.

C

Yeah. And then. But the thing is, this little slide, eventually there is a switchback and the slide just keeps going.

B

Oh.

C

So going off the side, it just. Yeah, it goes. And like I said, I don't.

B

This is the story for the 50 foot drop. Yeah.

C

So I spent probably like five or ten, like five or eight minutes, like, looking at my watch, looking at the map, trying to find out if there's a way I could actually. I was actually contemplating climbing down a cliff rather than doing this ice traverse slash glissading on this ice. And I. So I just ended up choosing the ice instead of, um. And then. Yeah. And so I just, like, I had to, like, throw my body into the side and I got my trekking poles and just like random in and I stopped like 5ft before going off the Damn.

B

Yeah.

A

So you're going much faster than you were wanting or anticipated.

C

Yeah, it started out fine and then you're like, oh, I can, like, let up the speed a little bit. And then I should not have let up the speed. And I just like, yeah.

A

And you're with your group at this point.

C

No, no, no, I'm by myself.

A

Okay.

C

I am.

A

So they're continuing on. You're like, I'm done.

C

Yeah. I was like, we're going to have our last final hurrah. And Bishop, I'll meet them there. And because, yeah, they had all summited Whitney, like, that morning. They all woke me up at like midnight. And my shin splints were so bad. I was like, I can't do it. And then eventually I was like, okay, I got to go over, up and over, which I should have done just during the day. My original plan actually was to sleep at the junction to Mount Whitney. And then at this point, I transitioned to water bottles. And I had like one full water bottle and one that was like half full. And I got to the top of Whitney and I dropped one of them and it hit the cap and it completely. So I mean. Yeah, that's your cautionary tale about water bottles. So I only have a half a liter and I was like, Okay, I can go back to Qatar Lake, which I know the route, or I can continue forward. And I was like, I'm so sick of this. I was like, I'm gonna continue forward. But yeah, so there you go. So that was like the single, like, scariest moment.

A

Did you get pretty cut up doing that or did it end up being okay?

C

No, it was fine. I mean, like, it was. Like I said, it was all. I was just on slick ice.

B

Yeah, that sounds like it sucks.

C

Yeah, yeah, it really. Yeah. Like, if I literally had anything else, like a single ice ax or even like anything sharp as besides trekking poles, I think it would have been fine. Actually, ironically, I do remember in that moment I was like, oh, Alex Honnold did this mountaineering route without really knowing how to ski. I was like, how hard can it be?

B

It's Alex Honnold. We don't base how hard it can be off of what he's naturally good at.

C

But he's not naturally. He was terrible at skiing. He was.

B

No, we don't put asterisks there either. These are simple life lessons to stay alive.

A

Yeah, his fear threshold should not be part of the equation.

C

Yeah. But yeah, single scariest moment.

A

Okay.

C

Scariest, scariest day was getting lost on the CT and like a thunderstorm. And I'm like, in this like, huge boulder field. So I can't. I don't really have the option of like, oh, I'm just gonna set up my tent and like, just hunker down. So at one point I'm like running through the woods, hopping on these boulders in the middle of a thunderstorm. And then I'm like, coming across like, wild animals. Some of them are small. And then I think the largest one was like a moose. Not. I think it was 100% a moose, but we kind of looked at each other and he's just like, looked at me and just like went back to grazing. And then I just kept running for another half mile until I got to the trail and like, flat area. And then I just set up my most wet tent setup ever. And I think that's probably. Yeah. Because that whole ordeal lasted maybe like two hours of like, getting lost. And then like,

A

you must have been very happy to get down to Whitney Portal.

C

Yes. Yeah. Yeah, no, that was. Yeah, I got a free meal at the end. The trail angel link from like, strangers is unmatched on the PCT as far as I'm concerned. Just like. And it's mainly from people who are like, do not know what trail angeling Is they're just good, kind people. There's this lovely family, and they're just like, do you want a burger? You look kind of beat. I was like, I would love a burger right now.

A

You'll love the at. But in that regard, I was gonna say.

B

That's so true, though. That's like, I'm thinking about my trail angel experiences on the pcd or the trail magic ones.

C

Yeah.

B

A good portion of them were people that didn't intend on doing trail magic or trail angeling. They were just being people that saw someone and they thought, why not? Yeah, you know, versus the 80. Like, you're saying you'll enjoy that, but those are people going intending. Remember we brought all those pizzas and then no one came. And we were like, where's the people? And then they came, and we just sat there salivating, wanting them to talk to us. Like, that's like. I feel like a piece of meat sometimes when I walk up to trail magic because it's like, I need to entertain this person. But when you get, like, a hitch. Like, we had gotten a hitch at scissors Crossing, and it was like a girl in high school and her brother in high school, and they were like, don't tell our parents. They maybe picked you up. They'd be pissed.

C

And we're like, yeah, phone number right here.

B

Yeah, you know, so. Yeah, that's it. I've never thought about that, though. But there is a higher percentage of just people that are people doing trail angel shit along the PCT than, you know.

C

Yeah.

B

Other places also.

C

Yeah. I came across on the AZT, some lady, like, just. She gave me, like, two cookies, and then she offered to give me, like, 40 bucks. And I was like, what? No, this is she. Because I was really. I was like, two days away. And I explained what I was doing because I was, like, doing a road crossing. And she's like, do you want, like, a. Like a. She was like, offering all this stuff. And I said, no, because I, like, had all my gear. And then she said, yeah, you want, like, a. Like, do you want cash? I was thinking like, you know, like a water cash. She like, do you want cash for the end of your trip? And I was thinking, like, oh, maybe that's like a slang term for like. Like a shooter or something. Because I was just thinking, like, water cash, Liquid cash?

B

Yes, give me cash.

C

And I said, yeah, I'll take some cash. Yeah. And then she's like. She goes and her husband's right there, and she's like, oh, she's like, do you think 20 bucks would be good for you? I was like, oh, cash, cash. No, no, no, I don't need. I don't need cash. Like, no, these cookies are great. Like, this is all they need. And, like, I have technically all the gear that I need.

B

Yeah.

C

And yeah, she had, like. She was like, a local, and so she was just like, they just opened up the Grand Canyon, and so she had just, like, done, like, a small section of it with her husband.

A

And that's the stuff that you love while through hiking. People's generosity is next level. Do you have a best piece of advice you'd offer to an aspiring through hiker?

C

Go slower than you think. Like, really go slower than you think.

A

Is that to soak it up or is this from an injury prevention standpoint?

C

This comes from an injury perspective. But I do wish

B

I have.

C

This kind of goes into, like, I guess my second piece of advice, which is like, embrace your regrets.

B

Oh, I like that. That's a new one.

C

Yeah. It's like, I always. I always hate being like, you know, oh, I have no regrets.

B

I hate those people. It's like you've never reflected.

C

Yeah.

B

Like, I get everything. Led us to where we are today, but you've never, like, wish you could even fine tune anything.

C

Yeah.

B

I have so many that perfect in every area. Oh, my God, I could get so heated on this. Eddie. I don't have no regrets. Like, okay.

C

Yeah. And I know someone on trail.

B

Oh, to do life so flawlessly.

C

But I know someone on trail who was consistently telling me, like, she wasn't, like, having a great time on trail. And then after the whole thing ended, she's like, I wouldn't change this thing. I was like, I know for a fact that's a lie, but, you know, it's. But you also shouldn't, like, wallow in it. Like, there's a very healthy, like, middle ground that, you know, I think everyone does it. They just. They're not as, like, vocal about it. Sure. Yeah. Like, I got my shin splints because I pushed too hard with a heavy pack. That's 100%, like, a very hard regret. But it led to all these kind of weird stories and experiences. So it's like, it is a mixed bag. But to have, like, a. Like a. There's no such thing as a perfect through hike.

B

I have a question. Your first advice of the advices of the Go slower than you think you need to. Have you taken that advice yet?

A

No.

B

Good.

C

It's definitely very much good. Do as I Say, and not as I do, but it's because I've experienced it, like, through.

B

So do you plan to take that advice?

C

I. I have a few hikes. Yes. So I'm planning on doing TRT with some friends of mine, and we are planning to go do a very easy. Between like 20 and 25 miles a day.

A

25 miles on the TRT, you know.

B

You know, like a very easy day. Zach, you've had one of those.

C

Yeah, well, like, compared to what we were doing, you know, where you don't

B

push yourself too hard.

C

Yeah, yeah, but I feel like the

A

PCT side of that especially that's it's not a casual day by any stretch.

C

Well, we. Well, we all just finished 800 miles in the AZT. We're all like, just say no.

B

Just so you don't plan on taking your advice. Just say no.

C

No, I do. That is. So she said 20 miles. But we also are planning on, like, I have like, six weeks to do the jmt, the Plaza de Plaza, the trt, and the Timberline.

B

So just say no.

C

But I mean, I might just like, not include one of you.

B

You're gonna go fast. Just say no.

C

Well, the. We'll just see what the footage reads.

B

You're such a liar.

C

This is advice.

B

Find yourself here.

C

This is advice. It's not life coaching.

B

I'm going to be in North Carolina. It doesn't affect me.

A

That is the ultimate do as I say, not as I do. Are you pounding painkillers on trail or, like, are you a spokesman for Advil or what do you.

C

I did go a little bit harder on. My mom sent me, like, those 800 milligram ibuprofen.

B

The dentist gives those.

C

I was really careful, though. I was like, okay, like, four days in a row is like, a bit much. And then I would just embrace the pain after that. Yeah, for like, you know, I don't want to build up any, like, tolerance to it and.

B

Well, according to the containers, you can take 1600 in 24 hours. Well, yeah, that's two of the eight hundreds. I don't do that cuz I get scared. Yeah, but what happens when I hit 1600? You give her an extra time.

A

It's also the. Just the chronic use of it will rip apart your stomach lining.

B

Yeah.

C

Yeah. Well, I never used it during the day. It was always. It was always at night. It was more for like, ibuprofen is for like, inflammation rather than the. I think the PCT just taught me to, like. I swear I'm not like, A masochist. But, you know, just like, I felt every single step.

A

You sound a little bit like a masochist. Yeah.

B

You also sound like you don't know yourself because everything you're saying is like, so, like. Oh, yeah, that was like, you know, and we went slow and then this and that. And like, everything you're saying is anti the tone you're saying and the way you're saying it. And I'm like, the words I'm hearing aren't matching the facial expressions. And I'm confused.

C

Yeah, it's definitely. I mean, I don't know. It's like, you know. You know you're alive when you're in pain.

B

Yeah, that's what a masochist would say it is.

C

But I am not like, every step and, you know, the shin splints, I'm

B

like, I'm in love when I eat yummy ice cream. You know, like, I'm not alive when I'm in pain. I wish I were not alive when I'm in pain.

C

I mean, I'm talking about, like, literally alive, not, like, living.

A

Yeah, yeah.

B

But like, what about when you take, like, a perfect lick of a great ice cream flavor? That's when you know you're alive.

C

That's yo. That's like. Yeah, that's euphoria, man.

B

Dead things don't taste this, you know?

C

Things don't.

B

My dog doesn't get to taste this. I get to taste this.

C

You don't give your dog ice cream.

B

Not human one.

C

Is there dog ice cream?

B

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

A

What's the dog ice cream?

B

I don't know. Dog stuff. When you get gopuff, there's things called dogsters, and they look like the little can. The little cuppies with the peel off lids that have the vanilla chocolate swirl.

A

Yeah, it's.

B

But it's for dog. And there's a peanut butter flavor, and I think there's a bacon flavor.

C

Yeah.

B

And then there's places that do a dog ice cream.

A

There's some semi cold ones in the fridge if you wanted. I just put them in. So they're not gonna be that cold. But if you prefer it over the.

C

No, this'll be fine. I don't want you to, like, keep running back.

A

Oh, you're fine.

C

I think. Yeah. Just one more.

A

Okay, cool.

C

Did you try?

B

You said you drove.

C

Yeah.

B

Oh, boy. Do we have something to send home with you.

C

We've got gifts for you.

A

You're going home with Element.

B

You are the lucky winner of.

C

Yeah.

A

Yes and yeah.

C

Element's like hella fancy. Well, yeah.

B

Well, this is a perfect opportunity to

A

do the stay salty question presented by element. Use our URL drink elementi.com trek for a free sample pack with your order. Do you have a hottest take in the world of backpacking or outdoors at large?

C

I really should have, like read through your prompts and like been more prepared.

B

Has nothing to do with us. You've backpacked for how many years? This is like a thought in your head we're asking for.

C

No, I feel like. Can you repeat the question?

A

Yeah.

B

Do you have a hot take?

C

Like a hot take on backpack?

B

Yeah, like something that you see and you're like, that pisses me off or something where you're like, this is done so dumb. It should be done this way or just like something that's like, like ah.

C

I think it shouldn't be glorified as much.

B

Why?

C

Just because, like accidents are more prone to happen. People have unrealistic expectations. People. I mean the whole like influencer thing is kind of coming. I don't have a necessarily problem with that. But yeah, there's like, I've seen people like push themselves to. There was like me and my little crew. Anyone who started the PCT in late May was somewhat obligated to do fast miles. So we would like catch up with some people and there'd be like, they would push themselves and then move like 9 out of 10 of those people got off trail by like mid Sierra just because they were too injured. More stress fractures than anything. Not like they like fell into something. And so if you like, you know that the glorification of that is doing it sub four months, sub 100 days. I think the 100 day challenge is like a thing on the PCT. So there were. Did you do that?

A

Yeah, I missed 100 miles, but it wasn't a like known challenge. And I hope this didn't screw because skip them.

B

It was. There was a fire.

A

Fire closures. But I'm just saying it makes a difference when you're subtracting mentally note that

B

I came to your defense there.

A

First time is the second, third to last episode.

B

No, I just told you to mentally note it so you wouldn't think it. That, that there was the only time.

A

But yeah, no, I think I. Yeah, this is good. I think this is good to. To shine a light on the darker sides. Darker maybe is the wrong word. But the more challenging aspects.

C

Yeah, yeah. And that kind of somewhat comes back to like, because I remember like I applied to like that like hiker scholarship and then I was straightforward. I was just like, I just like hiking. That's. That's my reason. And, like, other people were like, oh, I want to do it for this reason. I was like, that's really cool, but I don't want to, like, lie.

B

Dude, that's me with the cashier applications. What did the other people say?

C

Yeah, exactly. It made me just like, oh, I need money and I love doing this.

B

Like, what? What was more qualified than that?

C

Well, I also applied to, like, REI six times before I was hired.

B

That was hard in the sense, I'll be honest. I applied once. They didn't take me. I said, fine, you don't deserve me. Then. And then I started this.

A

Do you know what you changed about the seventh application, or was he think just better timing?

C

I think it was honestly just better timing because I feel like as long as, you know, they'll just hire almost anyone. And then they're like, I was hired a seasonal, and they're like, oh, if you're, like, not up to par, then we'll just, like, end your seasonal.

A

Yeah.

B

That's so misleading, though, because they told me that. Well, not they, but people that had worked there and knew people that worked there told me that too. They're. Oh, they'll hire mostly anyone. And then I came back from the PCD all cocky. I was like, oh, I've hiked this trail. It's many miles under my belt. I made a nice resume because I went to school for graphic design, and I could design it before AI happened. And I brought it in and I gave it to them. They were like, thanks. And they never called me back. And it was just like that. They just weren't interested because they were like, that's not like, flagship rei. Denver, Colorado, like, you walked far. Cool. Not cool. We don't care. That's not special. So I'm saying that because when you say they take almost anyone, I really bought into that. And then I applied and they didn't take me. And I was like, so anyone but me.

C

It depends on location. I will. So I've worked at four. Four different reis.

B

Okay.

C

So Dylan, Summit county, in, you know, Dylan, Breen Ridge, Frisco, Keystone, etc. The whole population is like 30,000 people.

A

Yeah.

C

Denver is like at least half a million. And, like, including, you know, Boulder and whatnot.

A

Yeah.

C

So the options there are just, like, much, much less. Yeah. Way more competitive. Yeah. So it also, like. Yeah. So just. I think it was kind of like the timing.

A

As someone that hires, timing is a massive Part of it because, like, we keep our, like, old expired job application or job application opportunities on the website, and it's, like, clearly marked as not hiring currently. But we get a lot of people that will email us being like, I'm really interested in this. And they're oftentimes very qualified.

B

Yeah, we're like, should we fire Rachel?

C

Rachel's nice.

B

No, we're not gonna fire Rachel.

A

No.

B

Also, as someone who doesn't hire often, I did Google the Denver population. It is 750, 000, technically 746, 590.

A

But is that Denver proper or metro included?

B

The population of the city and county of Denver. So not including. Not. You're not in the count.

A

I'm not?

B

No.

A

I'm Jeffco, baby.

B

Yeah, so. Well, that's why the median age is 35.3 is because you're not in the count.

A

That's true. I would be dragging about significant.

B

Be fucking up our median age.

A

Well, Jeremy, is there anything else you want to share with our listeners before we put a bow in this?

C

Just get out there and have fun. Doesn't have to be backpacking, biking, climbing, not free soloing.

A

After hearing your story.

C

Yeah, no, Yeah, I think, yeah, just get out there, have fun. Doesn't matter.

A

Fuck, yeah. Social media, anything that you want to plug,

C

it's under my real name, which is Havos Phoenix, which I just recently learned how to change, which is really cool. I'm new to, like, Instagram and technology.

B

What are you thinking about changing it to?

C

No, I changed it to Hoppos Phoenix.

B

Oh, okay.

C

Before, it was like, jeremy's not my real name. Havos is. It's.

B

Got it. Yeah. I thought it was your real name and you were excited because you were finally able to change it to something fun. No, I was like, wow, what's fun?

C

But, yeah, no. So I'm relatively new to all that and I'm, like, working on, like, figuring out how to edit stuff and not very good at it.

A

Hey, you'll fucking get there. Well, Havos, thank you so much for joining us here on backpack radio.

C

Thank you. Thank you for having me. This is awesome.

A

Hell, yeah.

C

Thanks for the margarita.

A

Okay, to the regular segments, that was normal. I'd say normal.

B

I interacted with your segment

C

and I just listened.

A

Chance, we're having fun here. We're going to do the classic thing where we are having fun today.

B

We are having fun.

A

Not having fun.

B

We are having fun. Wait, why?

C

Because

A

this was picked up recently published via the PCTA article, but this isn't

B

on my Trek propaganda.

A

We're above that. Bill Jensen, whose name.

B

No. Oh, I remember when you sent this. No, I didn't. Oh yeah.

A

For those who listen through to the end of the episode, Bill Johnson's the name that's familiar because he's one of our longtime Bob Peoples award winners. Yep. So you probably know where I'm going with this. But sad news is take a moment to honor Bill Jensen, a longtime Patreon supporter backpacker radio who passed away recently from a heart attack while hiking on the CDT in New Mexico.

C

I heard about this.

B

Phil Jensen and Brad from Searching Adventure. Brad and Blair from 13 Adventures. That. That's. They're. That's the clip where they're together. That's really sad. I remember you sent that article and we were wondering if it was the same one.

A

I reached out to the pcta, they confirmed.

C

Yeah.

A

It turns out he's also a Trek blogger. He blogged under a different name so I didn't connect the dots until later. But just some background on Bill. He threw hike the PCT in 1977 at age 19. Completed the at Colorado Trail, Tahoe Rim Trail and a near 4,000 mile Transamerica bike tour. And yeah, just a classic adventurer. He was also a PCTA Legacy Society member. A big time trail angel. He's a Trek blogger for us. And from every account that I've seen, everyone love Bill.

B

I have a proposition for a new rule we follow.

A

Okay.

B

Which is really good for me to propose as I'm on my way out. But I think we honorably leave him in the. The. I guess they're Bob Peoples now. The Bob Peoples mentions the super big thank yous.

C

Yeah, sure.

B

Just forever.

C

Okay.

B

I think if you pass while being one, it's in. In like tribute. How do you. What's the word for in perpetuity?

A

Like realize.

B

Yeah, let's just keep saying the guy's name.

A

Yeah.

B

Because that's so sad. Yeah.

A

But yeah, hard to go out to

C

Bill's friends, family, loved ones. That sucks.

A

Okay. Trek propaganda. This one is from the pegleg. After 22,000 miles of thru hiking, this is one of the biggest mistakes I see beginners make. Obviously very clickbaity title. So I'm going to be light on the details in terms of summarizing this. But Madison Peg Leg argues that the biggest mistake she sees with other hikers has to do with how they plan for their thru hikes. Does that mean too much planning, Too little planning. You're going to have to go find the article and find out.

C

But Madison knows what the fuck she's talking about, so go check it out.

A

And this next one I don't think will be relevant to anyone by the time this comes out.

C

So I will skip it.

A

Question of the day.

B

This one. Give. This one grinds my gears. Yeah. I have never had to think about this before because this is one of those things where like things in life you think are second nature. People breathe in and they breathe out. Right. We can just assume everyone does that. Yeah, I think this is falls in that line.

A

I have a good corollary to what you're about to say. I don't want to preempt your.

B

You can disagree. But in my brain. Yeah. These are involuntary actions that only make sense one way. Huh. Right. Like you don't sit on the toilet facing the seat and pee with your doodle hanging in the water. Right.

A

There's that doodle again.

B

Yeah. See? And here's a context example of where it sounds very non threatening.

A

Yeah. No, do.

B

You don't pee facing the wall. Right?

A

It's the one with the doodles.

B

Well, you do pee facing the wall when you're standing. But I'm saying you don't sit facing the wall.

A

Correct. I sit the correct way.

B

Okay. So that's the mindset I'm coming into this with. That is how bonkers I think this is.

A

Okay.

B

Question of the day. And I didn't even think this was a question because I didn't think that anyone would not have the same answer on this. And now I'm learning that other people don't. And I hate to draw it out. I'm not doing it to be that person. But the fact that anyone doesn't do this the same way I do is just. I just need people to understand. It's not something I have ever considered. Yeah, I've never considered that there is a different way to do this. Do people face the shower head when they shower? My answer is an incredible no. I am turned away from it. That's the way you're supposed to. Like if you're facing a mirror, if you want to look in a mirror, you face the mirror. If you want to take a shower, you get in the shower and you face not the shower head. And because then the water hits the back of your head and it's on your scalp and it rolls down and you wash the body and like you turn around, you can't breathe. It doesn't make sense.

A

So when I. Well, first of all, I do face a shower. Secondly, so Do I? Yeah.

B

That's psychotic. So that's the problem. That's the problem is once I saw this, I sent this and I was like, hey, question of the day. And then from the, from the, the gal group, the, the girls of the pod, they all started being like, oh, my husband says he faces it. And I was like, no way. And then I asked my husband, he's like, I face it. And I think this might be a boy thing.

A

It's possible.

C

I. Shorter hair thing.

A

That's. I thought you. I thought everyone faced the shower when like they're doing their non shampoo activities. But when you're not shampooing, you're also not facing the shower head.

B

Ever take a water gun and shoot yourself in the face with it?

C

Yes.

A

First of all.

C

You haven't? No, I think it's a boy thing.

B

Multiple times, every time?

C

Not every time.

B

That's what it, that's what facing the shower head would feel like to me.

A

Well, it depends on the shower pressure. Sometimes it's hitting my chest instead of my face.

B

So tall. You, you rise above the stream.

A

You can adjust the shower head. You can point it straight down if you want to.

B

Yeah. But then you're cold.

A

Well, that's. I think that's part of the reason why I like to face the shower head is it hits like directly at my heart.

B

Do you face the shower head and aim it to not even hit you in the head?

A

When I'm rinsing my hair, I've obviously rinsed my face and my head. Yeah. But I'm still looking at the shower head.

B

Yeah. Every time you shower, you move it to adjust it to whether you're washing your face or your bod.

A

I have never actually thought about it. I probably do. Yeah. I'm sure I'm adjusting the shower head all the time. Time. If the shower. I'm. I should also preface. I've got a small shower. So there I can't. If the shower is pointing in the middle, I can't stand far enough back to avoid the waters.

B

See, I'm of the mindset where it's like my car side view mirrors where I'm like when I adjust these to be right for my height. Don't fucking touch them. I've. I've never considered taking a shower and adjusting the head. Not once, but maybe even multiple times per session.

A

My shower is probably about two thirds of the size of this table. Maybe smaller.

C

It's.

A

It's tiny. It's a tiny shower.

B

So you don't have a Big house.

A

The house is adequately sized.

B

The bathroom has no window. I'm telling you, my shower is probably just the same size.

A

Yeah. And you don't adjust the shower head. That's crazier to me.

B

I can't even reach it.

C

Well, that's. Well, that's the difference.

B

Yeah. Okay. Five, eight.

C

I adjust it so it's.

B

But you face it, too.

C

I face it, but then when I need to do the head thing you like, you duck into it. Or maybe you like.

B

So you guys aren't getting blasted in the face, you're adjusting it to hit you in the chest.

A

I'll get blasted in the face all the time. Clip it.

B

Did you say it so it could be clipped or did you mean it

A

in the middle of it? I knew what it was going to come out as and I kept.

B

You didn't mean it.

A

I still mean it. I get blasted in the face.

B

Genuinely. Would you stand in front of a shower head and let it just fucking spray you in the face? Yeah, because I. I don't face the shower and I have.

A

Maybe you're the cat.

B

Well, listen, this is like I said, I think. I think if like a psychiatrist were to dig into it, it might be a sensory issue. But I don't like water in my face. And so I have a. I have a dry washcloth over the shower door. And when I shower, when it's time to get my hair wet, the washcloth goes over my face and I cup it around my forehead so that it stops, like the water from flowing down my face. Like everything still wet and warm and. But it's like a sauna under there. And then when I'm done getting my hair wet, I come out and I move my washcloth.

A

Don't. What do you do when you. Because you put makeup on. How do you rinse the makeup with the washcloth?

C

Okay, I just don't.

A

Wet washcloth is still.

B

Right. But it's controlled. It's controlled wetness. A streaming water down my face. I really don't like it. I use makeup wipes, like makeup remover wipes. And then when I'm in the shower, I'll use like my little rice wash and my little face moisturizer and my scrub and all those things.

A

It's like when you wash your face at night, you're not just like splashing water in.

B

I'm not? No. I thought the Neutrogena commercials were just like a gross over exaggeration.

A

Even my wife does that, so I think. I don't. She does It I can't speak for I don't know her shower facing.

B

I mean she gets the whole bathroom wet with water cuz she's acting like a bird in a bird bath. Every time she walks. Washes her face.

A

No, she goes up to the sink and splashes. She leans over the sink.

B

No way.

C

Yeah, I think she does that.

A

I think most normal people do that.

B

No, no, no. Yeah, I, I would. I would rather eat rocks than splash water in my own face.

A

You are a cat. You are certified.

B

What I'll do is I'll get my. I'll do my washcloth and I'll get my hair wet. I'll do this with the washcloth, I'll get my hair wet, I'll put the shampoo in, I'll come out of the water to put the shampoo in. So I put my washcloth down, I put my washcloth back on, I go back and then I wash the shampoo out with my washcloth on. And then my face is already kind of damp because I've got the steam of the washcloth and the shower vibe going. So then I'll come back out, I'll put on my face wash and then I'll go back in with my washcloth and then this time instead of just holding it at the forehead, I'll kind of push down and go like that a little bit.

A

Yeah, that's totally the normal way that everyone does it.

C

I wash my face just in the shower.

A

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I'm saying like sometimes if I shower in the morning and then like I have a active day, I'm just gonna go to the sink to wash my face.

B

Here's the thing. I feel like I've discredited myself a bit by giving so much info. I should backtrack and say I am not the only one that will not face the shower when I shower. And it. And it is not just because the washcloth thing or whatever sensory issues are happening. A million other people in this like Reddit topic or wherever I found it were like, that's insane. I would never face the shower while

A

I wash. My assumption, reading this question was talking specifically about like rinsing your hair.

B

No, just in general. Would I, Would you ever look. Do you look the sun in the eyes? No.

A

Yeah, because getting water in your face and having UVs burn your retinas is the same thing.

B

What temperature do you keep your water at?

A

The same temperature that's hitting the rest of my body. I don't know why Hot.

B

As hot as water hitting the eyeballs that like shooting you close your eyes. Do you not have good water pressure? Water pressure, good. Water pressure just pounding at your eyeballs at hot temperature is the same. Yeah, but where you compared it to looking at the sun. So if I look at the sun, I compared to looking at the sun. You said it was less bad.

A

Yeah, it's definitely less bad.

B

Looking at the sun's less bad?

A

No, facing the shower is definitely less bad.

B

Even the sun doesn't hit you with

A

pressure, it will make you go blind.

B

One could argue pressurized water impact to your eyeballs continuously. Could also maybe eventually lead to that.

A

I want that sentence clipped. Listen, I hear you.

B

The only thing. The only thing that I'm really upset about with this is that I won't be here to get the mailbags where people write in and they're like, oh, Chance, you were so smart and beautiful and right. And you should know that. And I'm not going to hear it because I won't be here to read it.

A

Yeah, well, you'll still see the comments. There's going to be people that agree with you. The people that agreed with you about granola not being cereal, they just like to. They agree with you. That's what they do.

B

That's common sense.

A

Yeah.

C

You said granola is not cereal.

B

No, it's not fucking cereal. It's a granola.

C

He had milk.

B

Why? If you add milk to a bowl of Oreos, is it cereal?

C

They make that?

B

No, I know. I'm not talking about Oreos. I'm talking about if you add milk to a bowl of Oreos, is that cereal?

C

Yes. Within the realm in my head.

B

And you.

A

I'd say the rebuttal is that it's in the cereal aisle. And the definition calls it a cereal, but, I mean, who cements these words? What difference does it make? It has to.

B

It matter. It matters to me because you wouldn't call guacamole a mashed potato.

A

It's every week. It's every week.

B

I don't understand. I asked Garrett if he thought. I asked Garrett if he thought guacamole was just an avocado mashed potato, and he said, no, it's not. What do you mean? It's an avocado mashed. Like a potato.

C

I used to work at Chili's, and we used to do a tableside guac, which was super annoying. And we had, like. Like seven different things we have to add into it.

A

Yeah. Yeah.

C

It's not just mashed.

A

Gotta get the cilantro, the onion you

B

don't just mash a potato. You put some garlic in it, some butter, salt, some pepper. There are equal ingredients in both chives.

A

So are all mashed foods just mashed potatoes?

B

That's what I was asking. That's why I asked if a hot dog was a taco. That's what I'm trying to figure out.

C

It's closer to a taco than it is sandwich.

B

That's what I was saying.

A

Yeah. So. Yeah. No, you. So I'm actually. I'm curious.

B

I deal with this every week.

C

This.

B

On my second eve of leaving.

A

It was funny that you.

B

Is this where you snap?

A

You jumped from proving yours granola not being cereal. Right. By saying that guacamole is in fact just mashed potatoes. So facto I can see it.

B

I don't know. Do you think you're gonna laugh this much when I'm gone? I don't think you're gonna laugh this much when I'm gone.

A

The lulls will definitely take a hit for sure. Yeah. Yeah. It might make sense at times, but less. Less laws. No. We're gonna miss you. John's.

B

I wonder if he'll ever text me.

A

I hardly text my friends, so.

B

So that's a no.

A

We'll see. We'll see.

B

Hey, Triple crown up.

A

Before we move on from this one, I am really intrigued to see people's comments, because maybe you are.

B

I am right.

A

It's not about right or wrong. I'd say after. You are like some significant minority I think would be the best grouping I could give it because I do imagine there's a lot of people that face away from the shower head when they're rinsing their.

B

You cannot think more people face. Face the shower head than away.

C

I'm willing to bet on that.

B

Shut up. How much?

C

50 bucks.

B

How do we measure this?

C

Should we take a poll?

A

That's a great question.

B

Oh, before we air it, can we. How do we get on a channel that's not biased? Call James.

A

I mean, we could just put it on backpacker radio's Instagram, but let someone impartial do the question framing because you're going to.

B

I'm going to say, do you face the shower head or away from the shower head when you shower and then face it and not face it are gonna be the only two options.

C

So you're not even gonna do like a mix? Because I usually do a mix, but most of it is facing.

B

No, I think that would gray it up because who would win out of the two of us?

C

For a mix that's true.

A

You know how about adding like for a majority of the shower.

B

Okay, let now we're gonna put your face as the background.

A

No, because we need the pole.

B

Okay, great. And then the pole. The pole is actually is a sticker that goes on top of it. Pole. What do you. You face the shower head or away from the shower?

C

It's too long. Select all backspace.

B

Hold on. Regular text. Do you face the shower head or away from the shower when you away from the shower head when you take a shower? Parentheses for the majority parentheses. And then I'll put a background so it's easy to read. And I'll make the text smaller and I will hit post. What's our time constraint? When do you want to end this?

A

Just let her run the full 24 hours.

B

Okay. Face shower head. Don't face shower head.

A

All right, I'll start to introduce the subject while finishes this posting.

B

You guys are so freaking raw.

A

Triple crown.

C

Watch it be like 95% to 1.

B

That's going to be where I like try to. That's where I joined the Mars mission. I'm like, you know what a one way trip sounds good. Take me out of here.

C

Yeah, I've thought about that.

A

Triple crown. Triple crown of things you can easily live without but nonetheless should be free for everyone. Apparently this was a suggestion from another B people's award winner, Hayley Buckingham palace. And her suggestion was really good. Ambient noise sounds for sleeping should be free on every phone and all the things.

B

Okay, I want to put a. I want to put an asterisks on this one because I don't want us to seem like a holes but I don't want us to seem like we also haven't thought or that we lack thought. We're. We're doing this in a very fun like a fun way and not like we're not talking about drinking. Drinking water for everyone.

C

Yeah.

B

Or I mean peace.

A

Even if there's.

B

These are all things that you could easily leave without but should be free for everyone. Well, I don't know if you can. I think without them.

A

Yeah. I was gonna say without clean drinking water you're not easily living without.

B

Right. But I'm. All I'm saying is we're not like we're not skipping the obvious because we have no souls. We're skipping the obvious because that would make a terrible segment and be really depressing. So bear with us. We know that there are things that could be great here. We're going to go with more Chachy ones. Yeah.

A

I did have the passing thought of like education and like technically you can survive. You don't need education to have a heartbeat. But as a thriving society, it's not a good way to live.

B

It was a thought of mine that led me to that thought cuz I had a thought then it was like, oh, if you think about this one step further. Oh, okay, wait, we're there. Oh, you. That would probably be the better answer. Now I'm an. Because I didn't pick that.

A

So got to give the education, health care, those are things that we would

B

love everyone to have them and have. You know, if I, I were in power, they would.

A

Yeah.

B

And I would also like very quickly get taken out of power because I don't think I would do well with the responsibility.

A

I could see you abusing power.

B

I wouldn't abuse it. Abusing. I think the word abusing comes with a knowledge of.

A

Well, I, I could see you like mandating time limits on toilets for guys. Something like that.

B

Oh my God, that was the funniest Instagram we posted. I checked the comments for a quick second and immediately left. Cuz everyone was like, oh, she's horrible. If you guys are not in healthy relationships with your marital partner where you can do weird like that because it's funny, then like, I'm sorry, I don't know. I'm not like, there's no way I'm gonna defend that. But whoever gets upset about that. I just, I looked at the comments for a second and I laughed and I was like, you guys don't know what having fun means.

C

Yeah, there's a goof.

B

No, but when you say fuck, what was the word you just used? Was the word you just.

A

Which one? I don't know. What was the context?

B

Literally exactly what you just said. You said something and I was going to say that. That, that Abusing your power. Yes, abusing. When you're abusing power, you, you know of the power you have and then you take advantage of. Advantage of it. I'm saying people don't know the power so they can't abuse it because they don't know it. Right.

A

Let's go to the triple crown. You want to start?

B

Sure. Mine is warm towels, for example. I went through. Here we go. Clip this for an Instagram. I went through a phase of gift giving with Garrett where I got him Christmas gifts each year that were also beneficial to me. Sue me. He was my boyfriend at the time. I didn't know if it would last. I just wanted a nice Life. And so one year, I got him a towel warmer. And this is the guy that had a very nice bath or something. Actually, funny story about that. I'll get to that next. Not about Garrett, but. So I got him a towel warmer because he had a really nice bathtub. And when he would go out with, like, boys, like, the boys always nights or whatever, my apartment sucked. So I'd be like, oh, do you want me to drive you guys there? Would you like me to pick you up after? And you'd be like, really? You're gonna dds both ways? I'm like, yeah, I'll just wait at your house while you're there and, like, sit in the bathtub. Yeah, there you go. And I'd sit there until he was done. Towel warmer. Incredible. Incredible. Coming out of the top of. Coming out of the shower to have a warm towel to wrap around you. And then you feel like a little warm burrito that just came out of the oven. Everyone should be able to explain, experience that feeling. Yeah, everyone.

A

That's a good one.

B

And if you currently are not experiencing that feeling, if. Ask whoever gets you gifts for one. If you can't get one for yourself, and if that is also out of means, that's why I put it as mine. I really think you should be able to have one. I'm sorry. Yeah, warm towels are really good.

A

Do you want to pull out three? The premise here is it's Snake draft. So Tronce goes. You go. I go twice. You go again. Chaunce goes. We do that for three. So if you've got something that you think is like, this is great, it's not essential to life, but everyone should have this. Feel free.

C

Liquid flavoring. Oh, Element.

A

Shout out.

C

Element, shout out to Element. Yeah, especially when it's hot out.

B

Yeah.

A

Well, if you're a guest on BACKPACKER radio, you do get it for free.

C

So we just need to cycle.

B

You don't even know how much you

A

get to cycle all 7 billion of you through here. And we'll get you nice and hydrated.

B

All 7 billion people that are on BACKPACKER radio.

A

No, no.

B

Earth Zach's going to be running this show past the grave.

A

It'll be like, Lily. Nevermind nothing. There'll be a couple people that get that.

B

Lily.

C

Who is that? Her name? Never mind.

A

Triple crown of things. I'm gonna go with. I so rarely do this nowadays, but I fucking love it. And I feel like everyone should. Just one annual massage. Nothing fucking turns your day around like a massage. Like a good 60 minute full body massage. You just come out of that feeling like the stress of the world has left my body. And everyone should get one tax subsidized to all the wonderful masseuses out there. Yeah, that'd be a good thing for society.

B

Yes. And if you really are a massage fan and you are either not yet married and have a honeymoon coming up, or a person that goes on vacation, consider Thailand, because the massages are so cheap. And if you go during the monsoon season, a lot of the places even not during it, but a lot of the places will do deals where you book a room and you get a free two hour massage with it. We had a massage at every place we went. It was fantastic. I love.

A

Massages are so good.

B

Yeah. Garrett's got. We've been trying to tone down our subscriptions.

A

Yeah.

B

I'm like that commercial for Rocket Money where I'm like, do you know how many subscriptions you have? Yeah. And Garrett's like five. And I'm like, actually, that's wrong. So all the checking poop people can hate me for this too. But I was like, listen, we should get subscriptions under X dollar amount. I think that would be like, what I would consider reasonable. I don't know. No, but he's got a Hand in Stone subscription, which is a massage place, and so they give him credits every month. And every month he can go get a massage and he does. And like, he gets accoutrements. Yeah. And it's because he plays hockey and he's a goalie and he gets puck shot onto him, like all the time.

A

Does that work across the.

B

He plays like twice a week.

A

Will that work in North Carolina?

B

I was really hoping we could cancel the subscription before we went, but it. I did google it without telling him. It does look like they have one in Raleigh, so I think we'll end up keeping it. And I. It's. It's good for him because he plays hockey again twice a week and he's not a spring chicken, and so those hips hurt.

A

But he's younger than you.

B

Yeah, but I don't play hockey.

A

What season of chicken are you?

B

I'm a chicken that has not played hockey. My hips are fine.

A

That isn't. Spring chicken's referring to someone's age.

B

Okay, well, he's a. He's a cage. He's a kid. He's not free range. I don't know, what do you say?

A

Pasture raised.

B

Yeah.

A

Okay, that's fine.

B

Anyway, so he's got a. He's got a massage subscription.

A

Smart Man.

B

But he can only transfer me a massage once every six months.

A

That's what he says.

B

No, that's what they say. He's tried to do it more and they won't let him. I've gotten, I know. I've been at the counter and they've been like, hey, you have to pay this amount.

A

He paid them to say that.

B

Yeah. Okay. But yeah, so massages. I agree. I wholeheartedly agree. Everyone should get one. Treat yourself. Self care is important.

A

My next one is YouTube Premium. I have not seen an ad on YouTube in a year and a half. And I would say of all of the subscriptions I have, that might be the hardest one to get rid of. Just because like, think of all the random clips that you pull up. I watch like podcasts and shit on YouTube. I watch a lot of things on YouTube. YouTube's probably my most streamed thing. But even without it, we put, especially when the kids were young, we used to put on like blues clues and just everything that strips out the ads on YouTube.

B

Can't you still find that stuff?

C

Can't.

B

Like, you can still find it on YouTube though, right? Without.

A

Yeah, but it's no ads.

B

Oh yeah.

A

No pre rolls, no mid rolls. And that's especially valuable when you've got kids because like, typically we try to put on something educational, not like too high stimulation. There ain't no filter for that. For the ads.

C

Yeah.

B

You don't want the limu emu teaching your kids.

A

Yeah, that's all batshit crazy and like louder and fast paced and it just sucks. But even for adults, YouTube Premium is nice.

B

Well, the thing that's very funny about that is of the 8 million subscriptions we have.

A

Yeah.

B

Again, it's egregious.

C

We have a lot and it's mostly not my fault.

B

Yes.

C

We just said the same thing.

B

I, I have a tab on my. I, I keep a finance tracker. And every two weeks we have a finance meeting. We update all our numbers because I'm a psychopath. Yeah. And he wants me to track it. And I'm like, if you're gonna stop checking your bank account in your mail when we get married, we need to do these two big check ins because if I die, you need to know what's going on.

A

Yes.

B

You know, so. Okay. Mind you guys, I might check if he poops, but I do a lot of good things.

A

You're checking more numbers than is number two.

B

I'm laughing just saying that. Anyway, I have a tab that I put subscriptions under and I went through And I tracked all of our subscriptions and I outlined them and I outlined how much it costed us on an annual basis. And it is disgusting. And I went through and I highlighted it in orange and yellow. Orange being more severe, yellow being less severe. Like anything I thought we could maybe get rid of.

A

Yeah.

B

Oh, my God. Apparently we need every streaming service to live because one plays one type of hockey and one plays a different type of hockey, and one has one type of Star wars and one has Survivor. And. Yeah, it's a losing battle every time.

A

You know what you gotta do is like, I do this with HBO and Apple is like, when something comes out that is amazing. Ted Lasso or whatever it might be, just wait for it to all come out, binge it in a month, and then cancel the subscription.

B

I think we just need friends to reciprocate because Garrett Share economy happening. Garrett. Garrett. He's a very generous guy, but one of the first things I noticed when we got married was that he has all the subscriptions for the video streamings and then his friends all have his password. Yeah. I'm like, Garrett, don't you think, like, they could each have one streaming service and we could have their passwords too, So I don't know. Nonetheless, needless to say. Yeah.

A

Another one.

C

I was gonna say that my family does that.

A

Yeah, the sharing.

C

Yeah.

A

I mean, they can stop it if they wanted to.

B

I think they realize you tell them it's travel mode. I had to text my mom last night for a code. It said it'll let me travel for 14 days. Every time it says that it doesn't follow through.

C

Yeah, yeah, it does that for Netflix. Works. Yeah, it works.

A

Probably some of them are more sophisticated than others, but. Yeah. Yeah, they. For a long time they didn't do about it.

B

So. Yeah, I don't. I don't yet have YouTube plus, but premium.

A

Yeah.

B

If I could have it free, I would love it.

A

Which is different than YouTube TV. That's like the streaming one. That's the. Like the. The cable competitor.

B

Well, that's just confusing.

A

Yeah, I know.

C

It is confusing. What was the question?

B

Is it your.

A

No. If you want to do triple crown of things you can easily live without it nonetheless would be free for everyone.

B

That was really fast.

C

Yeah, it was really fast things. So.

B

Yeah.

C

Oh, same question. I don't know why I'm thinking of Q tips.

A

Oh, yeah.

B

Okay.

C

I feel like that's also. That's how you know that like someone's like a OG trail angel is like if they have Q tips.

B

Yeah.

A

Is this. Are you talking for ears, or do you have other purposes?

C

I mean, ears generally, but it's also like. It's mainly. Yeah, it's just your.

B

No, no. What are you guys saying? Where else do you put them? I know you looked at him and then you said, no. No. Nothing else.

A

I don't know. That's primarily what I use it for, but I feel like with a backpacking context, people could have, like, MacGyver ish ways with it. I promise you, I'm not doing kinky

C

things in the Q10. I am also not doing.

B

It kind of seems like. It kind of seems like you're both doing kinky things and neither of you guys want me to know, but that you know each other's kinky.

A

I wonder what. What could even be going on in your head right now.

B

The mind can wander.

A

Yeah. You're up.

B

Oh, okay. Great. My next one. Football.

A

Yeah.

B

You could easily leave without live without it. Yeah. Not everyone's got Red Zone or a football subscription or whatever. Yeah. But something about Sunday being football and just, like, the relaxing aspect of it. And also, it's so fun to watch. Everyone should be able to just watch football. You shouldn't have to have X streaming service or this or that. It shouldn't be get this. Or, like, we had to. We had to sign up for some service. I can't remember what it was to be able to stream one of the Bills games because we weren't in a place where we could use the Pirate Bay or whatever the, like, equivalent is these days. And so we got it, and I was like, great. And then we'll cancel it after, just like you said. And so then I followed up after the Bills got knocked out, and I was like, let's cancel it. No, it Bills quarterly. And you have to wait till the season ends.

A

Yeah.

B

Which I guess is how they get you.

A

I've seen more places now, like, mandate an annual subscription. I think this is.

B

And I don't even mean it just in terms of the streaming service. Why do we blackout games? For example, if the Giants and Jets are playing or the Giants and who cares. Are playing, they'll block out the Bills because it's like, oh, a New York team's already playing and they're more. We do not have the same fan base. We are not competing. I'm not going to say, oh, look, they won't play my Bills game. I'm just going to watch the Giants. No, I'm not going to watch them. Not watch anything or or cry.

A

Yeah.

B

So I think everyone should just be able to just turn on the TV and get their football games. I think that should just be something.

A

They give us a semi. Caveat there is that technically you can get like an antenna feed for free, which includes CBS and.

B

But they black out games.

C

They do. You don't get every game, but you do.

A

You'll get.

B

But they blackout games when someone else in your area slash division is playing in your area slash division. So when they block out the Bills games, it's not because there's something better on.

A

Yeah.

B

It's because someone's stupid's playing someone stupid and no one cares about it. But for some reason we have to black out the game. That's happening closer home. Yeah.

A

Technically you can get some football, but you don't get the.

C

You don't get.

B

You don't get all of it. You can't. You can't get all of it.

A

No, I'm on board with. I think that's a great one.

B

Give us football.

A

Yeah.

B

You want it to be an American pastime? Just let us have it.

A

Yeah. I think it's baseball, but that's also behind a terrible pay wall. But neither here nor there.

B

Baseball is not the only American pastime, but. Cuz it's the stereotypical one. Yeah. Okay, next and last thing you can easily live without, but nonetheless should be free for everyone. A sense of humor. Oh, I think everyone should have one. And if you don't, I think that things are probably less happy for you.

A

Is there anyone in particular you'd like to call out right now?

B

No. Who?

A

Angry boner had 69 on Instagram.

B

Oh no, I didn't stay on long enough.

A

I wasn't even talking about. I don't know, it just. I feel like there was inspiration behind.

B

No, I just think some people don't have a sense of humor. And I like. I think some people take things too seriously. And. And I'm. A lot of the times when I think too heavily into this question, I think about things that end up going towards like altruistic human rights things. And that's not the theme of this. It's got to be fun and whimsy. Yeah. And so then I try to dial it back and I'm like, okay, what is the opposite of that thought that got kind of bleak. And it's like, oh, well, maybe we should just laugh at this stuff. Yeah. And sometimes people don't laugh.

A

And it's the best medicine when someone doesn't need help.

B

Say something. It's like. Yeah. Yeah. I think a sense of humor, it's. It's. It's not free because it has to, I think, come as a genetic trait. I think. I think there are some people that don't have the ability to have a sense of humor because maybe they're too high strung or XYZ gets in the way. So I can't say that it is an inherent easy thing to do because for everyone, it might not be, but I think everyone should have access to it because I think that it makes hard things lighter.

A

Would be cool if it was like a streaming Service.

B

Like paying 10.99 to be able to laugh at your woes or don't and cry. Yeah. It's only a matter of time.

A

Last one.

C

I'm like, way too, like, enthralled by all this. I'm not thinking of my own. Yeah.

A

Living in the moment.

B

That's good.

A

That's good. That's the way it should be.

C

What was the prompt against slow?

B

Just something that's not free but you can't live without. Something that's not free, but nonetheless. No. Something you can easily live without but nonetheless should be free for everyone. I jumped in to say it and then I said it wrong.

C

Free. I actually had one. It was then I started paying attention.

A

So that's why we have laptops in front of us, because if we don't jot down our notes, they're gone.

B

Yeah. You are actually at a disadvantage.

C

Yeah.

A

I can go if you want to think on.

C

Okay, cool. Please. What was mine?

A

I'm gonna go with.

C

This is too similar to my first one.

A

This is a little bit generic, but I think a good one and important is just parks passes. I don't want state parks or national parks to be paid entry. And I understand the counterpoint that like, they're super crowded as is. I just for public land, I don't like.

B

Permits can be free.

A

It can be.

B

And money can be subsidized by the government.

C

Yeah.

B

So the price of the park passes could be covered by the government and the permits could be free.

A

Yeah.

B

You could still regulate foot traffic if it's too crowded without charging.

A

Yeah.

B

I don't know. Just saying.

A

Yeah. I think the counterpoint to all of this is that, like, technically it gets paid for in some capacity. But that's the point. This should be a group effort, shared effort. I think everyone should be able to get.

B

Okay. But they. Technically it gets paid for in some capacity camp. Technically a lot of shit gets paid for in some capacity. And if you look at all the things that are getting paid for in some capacity and the proportion at which they're getting paid in some capacity, maybe we could find a way to just let people go into parks.

A

Yeah.

B

In a reasonable quantity so that we don't overrun them with free permits. And maybe if we put money towards other things in other quantities, perhaps you could find a way to make that manageable without stifling other things. And I think if we could defund everything we did, we could probably figure that one out, but who knows? Oh, she's gonna spicy because she's about to leave.

A

Dropping bombs. Actually, we should have a sound effect for chance bombs.

C

I actually never really thought about that because natives get into places for free.

B

Yeah, but you got. But you've got your whole slew of other. That you get on.

C

I mean, that's true. I mean, I was very privileged.

B

Yeah.

C

Getting a good education and.

B

But I don't. I don't know. But you know, in general, I'm saying.

C

No, no, I.

B

Not an easy understanding family.

C

I.

B

If that's the least we could do.

C

Yeah. But.

A

Yeah, we're in a deep karmic debt.

B

Right.

C

Like, but anyone planning on doing the pct? If you're Native American, you don't technically need a permit.

B

Really? Yeah, it's just the PCT or any of the trails.

C

Well, I don't think. Do you need a permit for the AT or the cdt?

B

I guess that's true.

C

You need a permit for the CDT for the Rocky.

B

But what about like trails that need permits, like the JMT or the Four Pass Loop in Aspen or like, like any trail that needs a permit in the us do you not need the permit?

C

Jmt, I know for fact that you don't need one for if you're native

A

about, like Grand Canyon.

C

Don't need one. Got him for free. Hell yeah.

B

Do you have like an ID that you show that shows that you're native, like when they ask for your permit?

C

Yeah. So we have a cib, Certificate of Indian Blood.

B

You have it on you?

C

No, I have a. Well, I see it. I have.

A

They have to charge you for those elements.

C

I have it saved on my phone. But with Grand Canyon, they see enough natives that they're like. Like, oh, yeah, you can just come on in.

B

I've just never heard of a cib.

C

Yeah, it's. Let's see, it's my download list.

B

We did kind of skip over that whole. That whole conversation we could have had around being native in America.

A

I would love to have it if you wanted to have it. I was attempting a little bit in the beginning, but I guess I could have asked it more directly.

C

Yeah, but I mean, hold on somewhere. This is. Have. I haven't had to present it in a while.

B

Yeah, that's okay. I still. I do want to see it, but I'll yada yada with Zach while you look, so I'll buy you some time. Hi. What you do over the weekend, I

A

don't want to make you multitask. Should we talk about the subject of, like, your experience as Navajo as it pertains to backpacking or just life in general?

C

Yeah, no, I was. Yeah, I was surprised that that did not come up. I. That was.

A

I could have pushed harder in the beginning. I just asked about, like, your upbringing.

B

I'll be fair. There was a part where you said that in the commercial, you being Navajo and that part of it and Alex Honnold's foundation giving money to the Navajo didn't make its way into it. And you were like, yeah, it was surprising that they didn't make its way into it. But with Alex being the main character of the shoot, I didn't know if it was just about the Honnold foundation talking about what they did that didn't make it into it. So I didn't want to pivot it and be like, so tell me about being Native American, and then be weird. So I just kept silent.

C

No, I think it was just because it was a commercial one. It was, like, 50 or 60 seconds long. It's like. That was, like, a whole.

B

But. But it would have seemed like I was just, like, fishing. It was. I was just, like, fishing for that info. If I had plugged it in there in that context. So I skipped it.

C

Yeah, no, no, it would have. Yeah. I don't think there's really.

B

Do you want a more targeted question?

C

Well, it's also. I was, like, looking for the document, and I was, like, half paying attention, if I'm being honest.

A

Yeah, the question was not targeted. It was basically just like, go ahead.

B

Yeah. Let's start it from the beginning. What's it like being someone with Navajo heritage in America?

C

I think it's great overall. Obviously, like I said, I moved when I was, like, 4, and then I would come back for, like, summers. And Navajo was the first language, and so, like, learning English was, like, surprisingly difficult.

B

Can you say something to me in Navajo right now? What does that mean?

C

Hurry up, little one.

B

Shut up. Why do you think of that?

C

It's just. What. What Said to all little kids at some point.

B

Say something to Zach.

C

Ja?

A

E. He's talking about my foreskin.

B

Again,

C

it literally translates to no ears, but it means, like, not listening. Like, pay attention.

A

Okay.

B

Oh, okay.

C

So there's a reason it's like a. Presented as, like, a savage language because it's, like, more verb orientated.

B

And so it's like, don't yada yada that. What do you mean?

C

It's like, so, you know, like I said no ears. It's like, so there's no modern words for certain things. Like, there's no word for light. So if I wanted you to turn off the light, it would sound like. Make it go dark.

B

Yeah.

C

Like, it makes sense when you hear it, but to, like.

B

I think languages do that, though.

C

Yeah. And actually, a language that's surprisingly close to it is Klingon.

B

Really? Yeah.

C

Like, in, like, general, like, structure and like, it's very, like, basicness.

B

But.

C

Yeah. And so it's. I mean, it's a very. It's. I'm oversimplifying on a lot of things. Like, grammatically, it is very much like. Like, Japanese or Arabic.

B

Was it your parents that taught you?

C

Well, I lived. Before I moved, I lived in a house. It was three families total. So it was like my great grandma, then like, my mom and dad and my family, and then my auntie's family. So there was 11 kids, six adults, one great grandparent. So it was just kind of like. It was just there, and we were, like, on a ranch. And so it was just. It's very good for, like, descriptive things and personal life, but once it comes to, like, the modern world, it's. It's not efficient.

B

Do you feel a pressure to need to remember it really well because so few people speak it compared to other languages these days?

C

I do. I really wish I. Yeah, I really do wish I had still spoke it because, you know, there was, like, there were some grandparents who did not speak English or they spoke very poor English. And so it was just like, just good communicating with that. Luckily, Navajo is the largest Native American tribe in the entire world, and there's a very small chance of it going, like. But if I was pretty much literally any other tribe, I would feel more of a pressure.

B

Right.

C

But I just. I meet so many people that, like, that are my age that speak it fluently, and I don't feel. I don't feel as bad. Personally, I would really love to, like, to, like, get it back. I don't think it's gonna happen, though.

B

It cut Me off of amassing too many. I just have so many. When you mentioned your house structure, was that on a reservation?

C

Yes.

B

What's the reservation like?

C

Very. I mean, we joke about it being like, very common joke is like, oh, if the apocalypse happens, I wish I was on a reservation. Because everything happens 10 years later. So very third world ish, you know, is. And it depends. So that's. That's kind of like the start. So the Alex Honnell foundation was actually started with like, solar power. And so he was bringing like, solar panels and like structures into places out just literally in the middle of nowhere with no, not even close to having anything like power grid. And so it was usually a very basic, like, solar panel, one single light because they lived in. It's called the hogan or Navajo version of like a teepee. It's like a permanent structure and it's like one room. So you only need one bright light and you. You'll be good. And so it was like people who are like, trying to like, you know, little kids are like going to school and they can't study or they like, they need like, electricity for like, basic things. So that was like his whole start because he did like this weird suffer fest thing through the desert and he kind of like, really? But sorry.

B

No, don't apologize to me. I'm literally asking you to tell me things. I don't want this to sound naive or stupid, but I also only know so much from the seat that I'm in. I've read a bunch of books trying to do research on the at and some of them have led out west, most of them. Then when that happens, I kind of skim through because I want to focus on the east. But one of the things I've read is with the reservations, especially the ones out west, they originally designated like, a certain amount of land and for X amount of families. And as time went on and those families had kids and grandkids and grandkids, they still have that certain X parcel and then that has to get divided by all the people. And then it's so small at the end of it. Is that. Am I like. Do you. Are you familiar with what I'm saying?

C

Yeah.

B

What is that? What is that? Because I like when I. When I think of a reservation in my mind, just to give you like a white redhead's perspective. Yeah, I think unknown. I shouldn't go there because it says I'm not supposed to and also like cramped and we've really fucked these people over are the main probably three thoughts I have.

C

Yeah. I think that's pretty accurate. Yeah. With I think, a really, like, famous example of, like, oh, we're gonna give you this land. And then, oh, they discover, you know, the Sioux, the Lakota tribe, and in the Black Hills, they like, here's all this wonderful land. This is your ancient ritual space. Cool. They discovered gold on it.

B

This happened in Georgia, too. If you fight the Dalanega. Dahlonega was so.

C

It's like, so same thing with, like, Navajo land. It was like uranium, Uranium ores was, like, found. And so they were, like, mining it, and then they weren't doing a really good job because you can do it cheaply. And then that, like, contaminated water then affects more things downstream. So this whole, whole thing. So, yeah, it is. It's very cramped in terms of, like, ownership it. From what I understand, like, younger generations like mine and like, nieces and nephews are just wanting to get out of the reservation.

B

That's the solution is like, well, that

C

was like, my mom's solution, and it's worked the best out of, like, my family that I grew up with, like, the original.

B

Okay, one more for me, and then I'll let Zach ask something. What would be your ideal solution?

C

Oh, that's deep.