Zach Badger Davis

In today's episode of Backpacker Radio Cinema the Trek brought to you by Topo Athletic. We are joined by Andrew Livingston, AKA Coach for Marion Outdoors, the host of the Chafed Outdoors Podcast. In this one, Coach tells the story of losing 150 pounds his sophomore year of college, largely thanks to hiking details his background in theater, ballet and tap dancing and how that's helped him grow a massive following on Instagram and TikTok. The biggest challenges of running an outfitter. He gives us an all timer poop story that ended with him naked in the woods, covered in shit and hanging onto a tree branch, and details the rules for banning problem hikers from his hostel. We wrap the show with Trek propaganda on gear people love 500 miles into the At a triple crown of sounds that trigger happiness, How a tornado woke Katie and I from a dead sleep in New Orleans My Jolly Gear sun hoodie review and a listener further breaks down the difference between a Sawyer and Brita filters. But first, a backpacker's most important piece of gear is their footwear. You can have the rest of your pack absolutely dialed in, but if your feet aren't happy, you aren't happy. And that's why we're thrilled to introduce today's sponsor, Topo Athletic. If you tuned into our footwear episode with Dr. Courtney Conley, a physician specializing in foot and gait mechanics, and you already know that Topo Athletic was on her shortlist of brands she recommends for hikers. That's because Topo Athletic makes trail runners with a zero or minimal drop and a roomy toe box. The minimal drop promotes a more natural gait, while the wide toe box allows your toes to fully splay. Thru hikers have caught on the topos as well. According to the Trek's AT Thru Hiker survey, Topo went from not even cracking the list four years ago to being the second most used brand in the Trek's most recent survey, narrowly missing out on the top spot. Topo Athletic is beloved by thru hikers for their superior durability and grippy outsoles. In addition to the minimal drop and wide toe box, our gear reviewers have reported getting anywhere from 600 to 1,000 miles out of a single pair of topos before needing a replacement. This can save you not hundreds, but more than $1,000 over the course of a single through hike. All Topo shoes utilize their Vibram outsoles, which is both grippy and durable, a rare combination. Typically you have to pick one or the other. Chon and I have both been rocking Topo Athletic Tron were the pursuit twos for the full Northville Plaza Trail and many miles since. I put in hundreds of miles in my pursuit twos over the last couple of years, including a through hike up toward Mont Blanc without even an ounce of foot discomfort. All right, here's the part you've been waiting for. The Discount Backpacker Radio listeners can score a 15% discount by using code Trek1515Topo at checkout@TopoAthletic.com Again, use code Trek15Topo all one word and the number 15 at checkout@TopoAThletic.com for your new favorite pair of trail runners. This discount is only valid on full price items and is only good for a limited time, so do not wait if you've listened to Backpacker Radio for any amount of time, you know that Chance and I are big fans of Gossamer Games year, and today I want to talk about their newest pole, the FT3 trekking poles. These are ideal for fast packing and trail running, where the terrain changes fast and you need to go from pocket to pole and back again in seconds. No more choosing between carrying poles you don't need and scrambling for poles you can't reach. Stash them, grab them, go at just 6.2 ounces per pole, carbon fiber shafts and a custom molded EVA foam grip, and keep every swing light. Their variation of the bestselling LT5s dialed in specifically for when speed is the priority. If you're putting in big miles and the trail keeps throwing different terrain at you, the FT3s are your go to discount time. Backpacker Radio listeners can score a $20 discount off these poles or the popular LT5s by using code backpacker radio and at checkout@gossamergear.com again, that's code backpacker radio, all one word@gossamergear.com for $20 off your new favorite set of UL tracking poles. This deal is only good for a limited time, so do not wa.

Katie

I've been out walking slow many miles

Zach Badger Davis

I've yet to go welcome to Backpack Radio, presented by the Trek, brought to you by Topo Athletic. I am your co host Zach Badger Davis. Sitting to my direct right is Katie

Katie

Jackson, AKA Double Dip.

Zach Badger Davis

So we're in the post Trons era here, but you've heard Katie on the podcast before. Obviously you've heard her name a billion times in the Trek Propaganda section, so you're going to be hearing a lot more of Katie's voice throughout this podcast, including the forthcoming interview, which I'll get to Here. Shortly after a few reminders. The first one is very big news is BACKPACKER Radio is doing a road trip this year. We've been eyeing the Pacific Northwest for many years, and this one is coming to fruition and it's going to be centered around Trail Days. Katie's going to be joining us on that. We're going to have a live event in Seattle. That's really the best that I can give you at this point. As of this recording, we're doing a lot of time traveling here. We haven't figured out the exact specifics, but if you're in the Seattle area, please just put permanent marker all through mid August on your calendar because we're coming out your way. By the time this one releases, we'll have all of the details. But yes, please flag your calendar. Very excited to meet everyone in the greater Seattle area. And obviously we will be at PCT Trail Days. You excited for that?

Katie

Stoked.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yeah.

Zach Badger Davis

Next is Please subscribe to the Trek and backpacker radio on YouTube. We're putting a lot of effort into our video these days. Jess has been spearheading the trek's YouTube contents. We've got a. I think we're probably like eight videos into the Andrea Skirka series. Ask Andrew Skurka. Andrew is obviously a wealth of knowledge and he's doing some really fun subjects for the channel. Backpacker Radio. Got a new camera here, so still figuring things out. But yeah, make sure that you subscribe to both channels. That way you don't miss the best from us. And last but not least, patreon.com backpackerradio is where you can go to get every episode advertisement free. Yeah, okay. No more beating around the bush. This is a familiar name. I've been reading his name on the podcast every week for years. It was awesome to sit down with Andrew Livingston, AKA Coach for Marion Outdoors. We are joined by today's guest, Andrew Livingston, AKA Coach for Marion Outdoors, AKA the Willy Wonka of the backpacking and hiking world. Coach is the owner of Marion Outdoors, an outfitter along the at. Coach is an experienced backpacker who provides tips, tricks and jokes to his online audience. And perhaps most notably, Coach is a Bob Peoples Award winner, which I just revealed to you. Oh, we changed it from Chuck Norris Award winner to Bob Peoples Award winner.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Got it.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah. The look of shock on your face when I said that. You're like, by the way, we have an award for you.

Katie

Is Bob People a person or is that.

Zach Badger Davis

Yes, Bob Peoples is the most famous trail maintainer on the A.T. still alive.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yeah.

Katie

Good name, Coach.

Zach Badger Davis

Thank you so much for joining us here on Backpacker Radio.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

I'm excited to be here.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah. Yeah. You have been a supporter of the podcast for a long time. I was just saying before we hit the record button here that it took me an embarrassingly long time to figure out that the guy that I'm seeing everywhere on Instagram is also the guy that I'm reading every single day or every single episode at the end of the show.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

I love the podcast. I listen to it on my long bike rides at the gym. I really do enjoy it.

Zach Badger Davis

That's very kind of you. And likewise, I love your content. We're going to talk all about it today, but I think, most importantly, the people want to know, what's the story behind your signature hat?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Well, I used to wear a hat like this in college and grad school, and it kind of went away for a while. And then a couple when I opened this business, I found it again. We were unpacking in this house, and I found the old hat, and I just decided to wear it that day and make a video. And all of a sudden, that video got a bunch of views. So it's like, oh, it's got to be the hat.

Zach Badger Davis

It's your luck.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

So I kept wearing the hat.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

And it's become coach. You know, I think people see the hat and they're like, okay, let's watch that.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah, it is signaturely, you. Do you have multiple pairs as, like, a backup, just in case you forget it?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

I do, but I don't like them as much as this one. It's just something. And it's wool, so wearing it in New Orleans in the heat is pretty awful. But, you know, it's part of my.

Zach Badger Davis

Does it smell terrible? It has to smell, probably. Can I smell it?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Do you really want?

Katie

Yeah.

Zach Badger Davis

Oh, boy.

Katie

I've never seen you out the hat.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Not bad. The leather helps.

Zach Badger Davis

You do not have body odor issues at all.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

I just do.

Zach Badger Davis

I took a.

Katie

That's an ad for wool.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Would you like to.

Katie

No, I don't need to.

Zach Badger Davis

Honestly, I'm not even exaggerating. I didn't smell anything.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Oh, good.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah.

Katie

Have you ever done a B testing? I've done a video without the hat, and it flopped.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

And. No, I mean, at this point, no, it doesn't, because I'll be hiking and not wear this hat, and the video does. Okay. So I think it's not that big of a deal. It was just exciting when I got a bunch of views with the hat. On. I was like, I'm going to keep it.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah, the hat works perfectly.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yeah.

Zach Badger Davis

Okay. Give us the background and your entry into the outdoors.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Sure. I've been in the outdoors my entire life. You know, Boy Scouts. Grew up doing that, going camping with my dad. My dad had this mountain that he would go to. He'd call it the Mountain, and he'd go shoot guns with his friends, and I'd go in the woods and hike and play.

Katie

And where was this?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

In North Carolina.

Katie

Okay.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yeah. Gun safety was important. Yeah. You know, I was terrified of them, so I didn't go around them, but they just go shoot beer cans, drink at the same time.

Zach Badger Davis

I thought he was like, all right, kids, go run out there. You're the target practice.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yeah, Try not to get hit.

Katie

You got very good at zigzagging.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

They were very safe. It was very safe. But camping up there. And then in high school, I was working at a theater at a concession stand that was right next to the Carl Sandberg house. And it turns out there were hiking trails over there. And by that time, I weighed like 300 pounds. Very unhealthy. And in between shows, I'd have like a three to four hour break. And I just started walking over there and walking all the trails. And I got really into hiking and lost weight that way and became obsessed with it. Me and my friends would go camp, and then we found this spot that involved like a three mile hike and we started kind of backpacking there. Really? We were just taking our cooler full of beer, you know, hiking in three miles with it to go drink with our friends. But then it became all summer, we'd go out there and spend every weekend backpacking, kind of hanging out in this really cool spot with a lake. And then I went to college for theater. And every weekend I would go backpacking. It was up near Shenandoah. Yeah, Near Shenandoah national park. And go backpacking by myself during college. And it just kind of continued. And I was doing theater and going outside at the same time.

Katie

Was there ever any nerves about transitioning from backpacking with your friends to immediately backpacking by yourself? I feel like that's a leap for a lot of people.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Well, I think because I started hiking kind of by myself, I was okay with it. I'm also an only child, so I'm really good at being by myself. Just awkward only child that I feel more comfortable when I'm by myself. So it was okay. There's definitely the nerves, you know, sleeping overnight by myself at first, but I got over that pretty fast.

Zach Badger Davis

So 300. You were £300 in high school. What I gathered.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yeah.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah. And how much weight did you lose, if you don't mind my asking?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

My sophomore year of college, I went down £150.

Zach Badger Davis

£150.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

And since then, it's been like, you know.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Struggle of trying to stay healthy while also owning two businesses. Sure. Doing this thing. Yeah. Stress is involved. Bad genetics.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah. I got up to 230, so I'm down probably, like £50 for my.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Nice.

Zach Badger Davis

I feel like I've done it long enough now where I don't feel like I'm constantly fighting that demon anymore.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Gotcha.

Zach Badger Davis

Do you. Is that something?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

It's a demon every day.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yeah. I've tried everything. You know, if I can find some balance. The problem is my personality is I get obsessed with something and I'll go as hard as I can until I burn myself out on it, and then I have to switch to something else. Yeah. So I think I go that way with food as well.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Once I start eating, I can't stop unless I make myself. And then when I'm dieting, I go really hard and do it too fast and then rebound, and balance is tough for me.

Katie

How has that been when you're planning food for trails? I feel like it's not an inherently healthy.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

It's actually better because I can control what I eat and the quantity is

Katie

restricted to a backpack's worth.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Exactly. I've gotten really good about only bringing what I need and having no food left the last day. It's magically happened in the past couple of years where I was able to do that. And. And I used to be like, oh, I should bring this just in case. Bring and have so much left or finish it all on the last day, even though I shouldn't. So it's.

Zach Badger Davis

So was it insensitive of us when you walked in here? We first just shoved beignets in your face.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

No, not at all. Not. I mean, you're in New Orleans.

Katie

We have nine left. Maybe eight.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

I've also gotten good at saying no. Yeah. And for some reason lately, I've. I'm not. I don't Sweet tooths. I'm not into sweets these days. Okay. So I'm okay.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Saying no to those things.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah. So is hiking and backpacking your primary method for trying to keep your weight?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Hiking, backpacking, bike packing.

Zach Badger Davis

Okay.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Cycling. I do lift weights. I. I kind of do it all. I also run. I'm trying to find a balance in it all. Yeah. So I'm not. Because I do get burnt out hiking and backpacking. So I'll switch to bike packing for a little while and then I'll switch to like kayaking for a little while.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Um, but I'm trying to find a balance of it all so I can do it all.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Forever.

Katie

That area of the country seems like it has everything you could ever want to do.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yeah, it's Southwest Virginia is amazing.

Katie

Your favorite trails you've done? Your hiking resume.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Oh, Art Loeb Trail last year was amazing. Very hard. I haven't done so the at. I've done most of it. I've hiked as many miles on the AT as it is long, but never through hiked it. I do it. I've done it. I grew up in North Carolina, hiking the North Carolina section a lot. Very often. I've done all of this northern or southern part of the AT sections of the northern. But like I haven't been able to travel a lot and do amazing trails. I've got all these dreams of like the Wonderland Trail and JMT and all that. But mostly my backpacking resume is a bikepacking resume because I've through biked more than I've through hiked.

Katie

What's the best through bike?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Probably the Trans Virginia bike route from D.C. to Damascus. It's the Lincoln Memorial to the caboose in Damascus, 530 miles. Also across North Carolina there was a gravel growler. So you bike pack and you go to all the breweries in Brevard, then Asheville, then Boone.

Zach Badger Davis

You're speaking my language right now. Yeah, it sounds awesome.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

So it was a brewery bikepacking tour, which was amazing. Northern Georgia route was great. I did a route in Florida where I learned not to take a trekking pole tent because of the sand. But what's that called? The Hurricane 300, where you're going through rivers with your bike above your head. Alligators in the water.

Zach Badger Davis

Whoa. No thank you.

Katie

You were not speaking my language. You had me. You lost me.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

I love that. Kind of like terror and risk taking, unfortunately. But we were fine. It was busy, so alligators were gone.

Zach Badger Davis

So which miles on the AT are you most looking forward to that you haven't done?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Vermont, Maine and I'm saving Katahdin for when I do through hike it because that is in the the cards eventually hoping with my kids.

Zach Badger Davis

How old are your kids?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

8 and 10.

Zach Badger Davis

Okay.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Hoping when they graduate high school they might take a year off or something and thru hike with me. They're all Excited about it. Yeah. Because I talk about it all the time, how we're gonna do it. Yeah. And I take them backpacking now, so

Zach Badger Davis

that's two different gap years. You could do two through hikes.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

I could do two through hikes.

Katie

Yeah.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

I might make one of them do the pct.

Zach Badger Davis

Okay.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

But he'll come. The eight year old Arthur will probably come for at least, you know, the summer section while he's in between.

Zach Badger Davis

Are they into hiking now?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

They love it.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

They love the outdoors.

Zach Badger Davis

That's awesome.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

So thankful for that. Yeah. And they're in some of my videos with me.

Zach Badger Davis

Okay.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

I'm backpacking and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. They're all about it.

Katie

It's so nice. I made it so hard on my parents. They tried to get me to go hiking all the time and I didn't do it. Uninterested. Yeah.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

We started pretty early. I remember taking Clara camping and we would take a laundry basket and put blankets in there and that's where she slept in the tent. A laundry basket.

Zach Badger Davis

I love that pitch.

Katie

That's a thermarest.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah. So things that don't surprise me. You having a theater background, because your Instagram videos, your Persona is like, you can't look away. It is crack cocaine, it is napalm. It's like if. Even if you want to scroll past, your body will involuntarily shut down. It's just like so grabby.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Awesome.

Zach Badger Davis

Obviously you making content was like a very natural thing. What sort of theater, what sort of productions had you worked on prior to starting the Instagram and TikTok?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

So I started kind of on stage. I started tap dancing and taking ballet lessons when I was 2. My aunt was a dance teacher and I did that. And then at 10 years old, I started taking acting classes and went to college for musical theater, then went to grad school for like serious acting. And then since then I've. I studied at the Moscow Art Theater in Romania with a Romanian playwright and experimental theater was a thing for me for a while. These. We'd do these Romanian plays in English in New York and I was in a theater company in Chicago. But the past eight years before I opened the store, I was working at the State Theater of Virginia called the Barter Theater. And it's a year round rep company. So it was a full time job and we were doing seven or eight shows a year and it was a mix of everything. So like Shakespeare, musical theater, comedies, tragedies, British plays. So I got to do everything. And I was also the tap choreographer There. So, you know, it was. I've done a ton of theater. Yeah. And made a living at it and could have kept going, but decided that this other passion was. It was time for that.

Katie

What was the process like? How did you navigate being in dance and being in theater when you're at your heaviest? I always hear that's not the most friendly.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

I was bullied for sure. I mean, I was the fat kid who tap dance and did ballet, but because I was at the studio, I was friends with all the popular girls and they would kind of like, protect me, you know what I mean? So that was helpful. But, yeah, I was definitely bullied a lot. I like to say it didn't bother me, but of course it did. I was just so used to being alone and I was so happy to be doing what I was doing that I just like, whatever, you know, you can make fun of me. It's cool.

Katie

Has that translated into having a thicker skin on the Internet? Because I know the Internet's not always the kindest place to be either.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Absolutely. And at this point, when trolls come out, I know videos are doing well. It's just bound to happen. Yeah. Somebody's gonna say something horrible and mean. Yeah. And I'm okay with it.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah. No, that's a great perspective because, like, once you get to a certain threshold of views, even if it's like 0.01% of people being assholes, like, enough views, you'll get that person.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

You will. Yeah. They're out there sitting behind their computer. Ready?

Katie

I have the thinnest skin.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Just ignore it. Don't read the comments. Yeah, yeah.

Zach Badger Davis

Okay. Somebody watching this. They're starting their own content channel of some sort. Do you have any advice to them? Like something that you've pulled from your theatrical background? You probably do everything subconsciously, but, like, do you have like a concrete acting tip that you could give them to make their videos more sticky?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Well, I've thought about it a lot because if you go back to the very beginning of the channel, it's very boring. It's me, like, you know, I'm pretty laid back guy, and I'm just sitting there talking like this, not getting a lot of information out within the minute that you need to get the information out. And over that. I started to heighten my own personality and started talking faster and writing the scripts. So I. I knew kind of the story, the beginning, middle and end, and then actually doing takes. I'll sit there and do takes until I'm. And I'll watch them and until I'm happy with one, and I want it, you know, like, I mean what I'm saying. So I won't release it unless it seems like it's me, and it usually is. But just be yourself. Ask questions that you want answered, and then answer them in your videos, because more than likely, everybody else is asking the same question. So, acting wise, just be yourself in a heightened way, I guess.

Katie

And get a signature hat.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

And get a hat. Get a costume. Yeah. I was doing some research online about such low grounds. Well, I was watching a YouTube video about these famous YouTubers, and it turns out they all have a costume. Like, Ryan Trahan wears a white T shirt and jean shorts. Huh. And that's his costume. And people kind of expect that.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

So I. That's why, you know.

Zach Badger Davis

No, the following.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Those.

Zach Badger Davis

The wheels are spinning. Right. I mean, obviously, I wear a hat all the time.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Right.

Zach Badger Davis

We did a kind of controversial interview. People know if they know. And one of the comments that made me laugh. I think I mentioned this in a podcast recently, was the only thing more shocking than the interview was the fact that I wasn't wearing a hat. People don't know what my head looks like. So I guess that's my costume.

Katie

I knocked your hat off.

Zach Badger Davis

Exactly. That's nice.

Katie

Do you have any costume other than the hat? Do you ever wear a similar shirt?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Jolly gear shirts are huge. Yeah, mostly jolly gear shirts, and this one now is in the lineup, but crazy shirts and then this hat.

Zach Badger Davis

When you get people coming to your store, whether they're hikers or just a more general audience, do you ever feel, like, a pressure to be in performance mode for them?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

I don't. They are surprised by how laid back I am. But then I explain, like, yeah, that's a heightened version of me.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

In order to get information out in 60 seconds. And they're like, cool. And it's funny how often I don't wear this. All the time. I wear a baseball cap and my glasses, and I'll shuttle hikers, and they don't recognize me. And then I'll get to the shop and maybe put on this hat, and they're like, all of a sudden, like, I'm Clark Kent turning into Superman, and they go with you.

Zach Badger Davis

That's hilarious.

Katie

I'm seeing Perry the Platypus put the hat on Agent Perry the Platypus.

Zach Badger Davis

I don't know the reference.

Katie

Oh, Phineas and Ferb. What, you have kids?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Sorry, no.

Zach Badger Davis

This is where we're learning that Katie's younger than we are.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

I Was about to say because we're old. Yeah.

Zach Badger Davis

So since you've started the channel, I imagine you've seen a difference in your store. Yeah.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yes, absolutely.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah. Tell me about that.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

We get people driving on 81 south that say we chose this direction so we could come to the shop. Every year even the 80 bubble has grown. More people are stopping in Marion to resupply and stay at the hostel upstairs. We get people calling asking for advice. Our e commerce store has been blowing up a little bit because people want to support the store because I give them information on our channel.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah.

Katie

The answer may be obvious. Has this translated to more in person sales or are people coming just to meet you and leave?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Usually they buy something even if it's a hat with the turtle on it or a T shirt or sticker. But a lot of people save their money and don't want to buy anything until they get to my shop so then they can have the experience I want them to have with the pack fitting and all that and they buy it at my shop.

Katie

Well, how many miles into the at are you located?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

534.6.

Katie

I feel like that's a good amount. Where most people are having some sort of gear failure or have learned that they don't like their gear at this point.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Exactly. A lot of people are ready to go ultralight or it's summertime when they get there and they're sending home all their winter stuff and buying summer stuff. So we sell a ton of 50 and 40 degree quilts and summer sun hoodies, jolly gear shirts.

Zach Badger Davis

I feel like the 40 to 50 degree quilt is like distinctly an at thing.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

It is.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah. I've had many sleepless nights on the at where it's like the low gets down to like 68 overnight and you're

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

just like sweating all night.

Katie

I've only really backpacked out west and I think I'm in a 10 degree year round here. Yeah, I can't imagine a warm night.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yeah, yeah. Sweating all day every day in the summer on the AT is just a part of it. Just soaking wet all the time.

Zach Badger Davis

When did you open the store?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

April 1, 2022.

Zach Badger Davis

Okay. What is the skew that you sold the most of in that time in like the first year or I guess like since 2022.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

That's a good. I mean, fuel canisters.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah. Okay.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

You know the mini fuel canisters. Yeah. But gear wise, probably ULA backpacks, ultra circuits.

Zach Badger Davis

Interesting.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Those are very popular on the T, you know, waterproof, ultra 200 material. I'd say that would be the big item that sells the most. And then quilts, tents, if we have a chance to have like the ultralight, Hyper light Unbound will sell pretty well, but everybody's ready for a trekking pole tent. And gear companies like Durston and zpacks, their margins aren't great, so it's harder to sell them in the shop.

Katie

Has there ever been anything that you were convinced personally would do great and then no one bought it?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yeah. First year I bought Zero shoes because I was such a huge fan of Zero shoes. And I got their hiking shoes like people want to. They like the lone peak. It's pretty minimalist. Why won't they like the Zero shoes? And then it turns out that Zero has 80% off sales pretty much year round. So they're coming in the shop, seeing our price, looking online and going, I can get them for 80% off. I'm going to buy them here. Yeah. So that was an experience I learned very early on. Don't buy something where they're going to have it on sale online all the time. Yeah.

Zach Badger Davis

What's the most frustrating category to carry? Is it footwear?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Actually, no. Footwear is okay. It's apparel. Getting all the sizes. I. I wish I knew what people needed when they were coming in.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

It's different every single year. I'll order less smalls this year because last year they didn't sell and of course this year they need. We need them. Yeah. So it's apparel. Yeah.

Katie

We were debating this yesterday. Are more people on the AT these days doing shorts or pants? Or is it a year to year?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Shorts.

Katie

Okay.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Although. So more and more of the AT hikers are retired. And I'd say the retired hikers, a lot of them do like wearing pants, but we sell a whole lot more shorts than pants.

Zach Badger Davis

For sure. Kate, Tech in the AT next year. I hope I'm not spoiling.

Katie

Fingers crossed. Yeah.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Awesome.

Zach Badger Davis

We can cut that if that shouldn't be going.

Katie

No, that's okay. That's okay.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Come stay with us.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah, I will.

Katie

I will.

Zach Badger Davis

And Katie's brilliant about gear. She's our most prolific gear reviewer, but she's got like a lot of AT specific questions. Do you have any other questions? Like pants. Shorts is a good one.

Katie

It's just such an environment I'm not sure about. I have heard don't do a tarp. And I don't want to do something if everyone says not to do it, I wouldn't do it. But in my head, I would just stay in shelters. What are your thoughts on bringing a backup tarp?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Bring a tarp. I've seen a lot of people with tarps.

Katie

Okay. I feel like the why not for me is I hate bugs.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

You will get buggy.

Katie

Yeah.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Especially summertime. You may want to switch to something else. And it's going to be hot and humid.

Katie

Is there a spot where you would recommend switching from a more winter setup into summer? Is there a mile marker where you think this is where it's summer here on out?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

It's different every year, but usually around Marion, Virginia, maybe a little bit further north. But after Grayson Highlands, Mount Rogers, you don't have a lot of elevation through Virginia, so that would be the best place.

Katie

Interesting. And then I'm surprised to hear you say you sell a lot of sun hoodies, because I don't often think of the sun with the at.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

It's true. But I. I think they're just popular.

Katie

Yeah. That's fair.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

I think they're popular.

Zach Badger Davis

That was gonna be. My question is, like, how have you seen the fashion change from 2223 to today?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

I mean, it's gotten more colorful.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

And it's very trendy. Yeah. Everybody wants the new Jolly Gear design, the new townshirt design, and I'm here for it. I love it. People like expressing themselves and what they're wearing out there and more and more. So as they go north, they're feeling more comfortable with themselves. Like, all right, we're going to get a Jolly Gear shirt and cut off the arms. And that's me. And. Yeah. It's fun. Yeah.

Katie

I was telling someone yesterday I like to look like a rainbow threw up on me. I don't want anything to match, and I want it to not go well together.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

That's. You'll fit right in. But it's just the 80. Yeah.

Zach Badger Davis

What's a gear item that you're carrying at the store right now that most people don't know about that they should know about?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

I feel like I do videos on everything that everybody knows.

Zach Badger Davis

We'll pretend like someone that's not familiar with your online content.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Hmm. Probably like the Alpen Flow fuel transfer device.

Katie

I just got one. I love it.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

It's so easy to use all of his stuff. He has a new pad pump coming out very soon that he sent me that has a little light on it, and it's a lot stronger than the really ultralight one. So I'm a fan of pad pumps. I hate blowing up my pad. And this one's ultralight and hooks up to your power bank so you don't need to carry chargers and stuff like that.

Zach Badger Davis

Do you have a dedicated big three or given the nature of your work, are you constantly testing new stuff?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

I'm constantly testing new stuff, but with a backpack. I do test them, but I'm always going back to the gorilla 50 gossamer gear. I love that thing. Yeah. I wish it was waterproof and I did get the Mirage 40 and it's just as comfortable. It's just there's something about the gorilla 50 that fits my needs that I love. But I test gear every single time I go.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah.

Katie

If you had to right now, pick a tent, what would you go with? You can't test any new ones.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

The Durston x Mid Pro 1.

Katie

I. I agree.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

And he's also coming out with the X Dome Pro, the Dyneema's freestanding tent that I might actually choose instead for places that aren't great for trekking poles. Probably up north.

Zach Badger Davis

Were you saying that you don't carry Durston stuff because the margin's too small in.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

They're way too small and you have to pay for shipping. It's 10. If you buy 10 things and then you pay for shipping. So there is no margin.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Really? It would be a loss leader in the store just to get people to come in. Yeah. And every once in a while we'll buy something and sell it on consignment. Brand new. Just so we have it in the shop. Yeah.

Zach Badger Davis

Are you carrying any Farpoint?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yeah, I just talked to him last night. Yeah, we're bringing in his techno wool hoodie soon.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah, I just got one of those. I haven't had a chance to test it backpacking or running because I fucked up my leg. But my first impressions were very positive.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

I love it. Yeah, I have the 60, the black 60 weight, whatever it is. Yeah. Love that thing.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah.

Katie

Just got the green 40. It's in my bag now and I'm testing it this weekend.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

I'm a big fan of it.

Zach Badger Davis

Nice.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Love their stuff. Yeah, I like bringing in cottage brands.

Katie

Yeah.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Easier to work with.

Zach Badger Davis

Speaking of gear, worth mentioning that we're here at Switchback Festival. We are the New Orleans attire and

Katie

all the funky sunglasses.

Zach Badger Davis

Exactly what gear that you've seen has stood out most to you from the show?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

We talked about it a little earlier. Sea to Summit, their ultralight one person tent that they're coming out with their. I think it's an Ion 3 sleeping pad that is 11.5 ounces and has an R rating of 4.8. Yeah.

Zach Badger Davis

And it's a slow on it.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

I didn't lay on it. Okay. Is it comfortable? Did you.

Zach Badger Davis

So that's the first of that style sleeping pad. I'm used to being in the X Lite. That's basically all that I've used for, like, the last eight years. Sure. And this one, I forget the technology where it's like the different pockets all around.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yeah.

Zach Badger Davis

So that, I think, would take me some getting used to, but overall, I did find it to be comfortable, especially considering the weight of it.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yeah. They explained it to be comfortable. I believed him. Yeah. I just didn't feel like laying down on that table with it. Yeah.

Zach Badger Davis

And what was interesting is if, like, you push on one part of the pad, it doesn't affect the. Because of the little chambers.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Because the long baffles on a sleeping pad, if you're on one side, the rest of it's going up, and I can't stand that.

Zach Badger Davis

Yep.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

So that is helpful.

Zach Badger Davis

I interrupted you.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Sorry.

Zach Badger Davis

I wasn't sure. No, no, that was part of the product demo. Was like, he insisted that I lay down on the thing. I think, like an idiot, people walking by and, like, trying to take a nap on that.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

He wanted me to too, but I insisted I shouldn't.

Zach Badger Davis

You have a stronger backbone than I do. Did you do the tour with Ryan Seacrest?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

What?

Zach Badger Davis

Literally, their product rep's name is Ryan Seacrest.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Oh, yeah.

Zach Badger Davis

He said that to me, and I, like, looked at him. He's like. I could tell he didn't want to talk about it.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Is he the one that lives in Australia? Yeah, yeah, that was him.

Zach Badger Davis

Okay.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yeah, but they're. They're closed. Cell phone pad as well. That kind of folds up smaller. Yeah. It doesn't look comfortable. Right. But it's also a sit pad. You can take off a piece like that.

Zach Badger Davis

Like, taper around the sides.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yeah, yeah.

Katie

I've also never. I've never looked at the closed cell pad and thought it looked comfortable. So I figure.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

But that one especially, I, like, felt it's like, that's not. That's gonna be like a massage table.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah.

Katie

Where you're like, okay, but stand on it barefoot. Get the pressure points.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yeah, exactly.

Zach Badger Davis

Are you able to sleep on the ccf? Is it cf?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yeah. No.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah, same.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

No, I need a comfortable mat. Yeah. Comfortable pad. Which therm. A rest might have the solution for that because I've been taking the heavy neo loft lately so I can sleep well. Yeah. But they've got one now that's a mix between the Neoloft and the X Lite. So it's lighter and the, the feeling of. Is so much more comfortable.

Katie

I was so excited to see they do the. The fabric on the top like the Neo Loft where it's. I, I hate. I always backpack with sweatpants. Cause I hate the feeling of my just sweaty legs against the plastic of a pad. But they've got more of a soft brushed fabric on the top of it. Yeah, that's great.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

And it's affordable.

Katie

And it's affordable. I guess.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

150 bucks compared to.

Katie

Compared to other.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Compared to their others for sure.

Katie

Chump change. What's $150?

Zach Badger Davis

We talked about the fashion of apparel. Is there any tech related to apparel that you're excited about?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

I don't think about apparel a lot technically, so no, nothing. I just feel like anything you saw yesterday that you're excited about, I now

Zach Badger Davis

Katie and I were chatting about this. Like every big brand now is releasing their own version of Alpha. Yeah. They've caught on to the fact that Alpha is hot.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

I do like Alpha.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah. And now like you're gonna see it from every brand moving forward for sure.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

I mean, we have Sam Bob's Alpha 90s in the shop and they do very well. Yeah, I have one and love it. I mean, I, I get it. Yeah. Alpha's the thing and it should be.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah.

Katie

Are there any gaps in technology and gear that you have not seen addressed but you would like to see in the next few years something solve an issue?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

I think if I had that, I would have suggested it to someone and they would have made it. But I feel like sleeping pads aren't there yet and people aren't. I guess they are now, but they're not really working on them. I feel like, like Thermarest came out with their X Light and they're like, all right, that's it. We're not going to improve on this. Yeah. Except we'll make it quieter.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah. That was a big one though.

Katie

I did like that.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah. No longer a bag of potato chips.

Katie

I'm excited that the sleeping bag pumps are becoming more of a thing now. I agree. Blowing the pad ups the worst camp chore. I wouldn't even consider that a luxury item. I'll die out there.

Zach Badger Davis

If I talk about the battery powered pump.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

There's one flex till zero.

Katie

Flex till zero is battery. It takes one battery and it's rechargeable. But Alpen Blow now or Alpen Glow. Alpen.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Alpen Glow. Alpen Flow.

Katie

Yeah. The Alpenglow. Alpen flow is, I think, just a 3D printed thing nozzle that slots into the pump, and then you plug it into your portable charger so it doesn't have a battery, and it just takes the juice from your portable charger and it blows up much slower. But it weighs slow. Yeah, I. I don't actually. Maybe one ounce. It's crazy.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

There was one last year called Rex Creations Pad Pal that was much faster. Same weight, but he stopped making them. Huh. So Alpen Flow came on the scene and now he's making one that is faster and. But they're all loud and annoying at camp.

Katie

And Alpen Flows. It's soundless.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

You're right. It's not that loud.

Katie

Kind of sounds like a mosquito.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yeah.

Katie

Maybe quieter.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

You hear the flex tails everywhere.

Katie

Flex tail is loud.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yeah.

Zach Badger Davis

Is it like talking vacuum? I don't know if I've heard one. Exactly.

Katie

Yeah.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yeah.

Zach Badger Davis

I'm so used to the xlight that I tested a new sleeping pad recently, and it was embarrassing how long it took me to figure out how to inflate it. And I think it's like the standard inflation technology for most sleeping pads, where the valves, like, on the front side of it near the top.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Flat.

Zach Badger Davis

And it's flat.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yeah.

Zach Badger Davis

And then you've got the bag that you're supposed to, I guess, blow into. I don't know. I couldn't. I felt so stupid.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Kind of like catch air and push.

Zach Badger Davis

Is that what it is?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yeah.

Zach Badger Davis

Okay. I need a demonstration because this is. I'm sure this is how 80% of people are filling up their sleeping pads. And me with someone like thousands of miles, looked like the biggest fucking idiot trying to get this thing full of air.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

I'll make a video on it.

Zach Badger Davis

Okay.

Katie

Yes. Yeah.

Zach Badger Davis

Please shout me out.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

How do you be your pad bag?

Katie

This is going to make me look so silly because I always forget the name of the effect and I always think it's Coriolis effect, and it's not. But there's some principle in physics where if you're blowing into a tube from further away, you can just take one breath and blow and the air movement will fill the entire bag. So the principle of the air pump bags is you can get 10 breaths of air with one breath and then just pump it in with the bag.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

So you actually put your breath in there. Oh, I just go like this.

Katie

I mean, I think it's kind of a similar.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yeah. Yeah.

Zach Badger Davis

We'd like to have you guys race.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yeah.

Katie

If you hold it in your mouth and just blow one slow. I don't know. I get lightheaded when I blow up a sleeping pod. Me too. It's just one breath and it'll fill the whole thing.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Cool. I'll try that next time.

Zach Badger Davis

I have notes that you have a poop story.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Oh, I do. I actually haven't told this one.

Zach Badger Davis

Okay.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

To many people, just close, personal. My wife. This happened on the Trans Virginia. So let me. Let me preface this as I am a regular pooper. I poop in the morning on a schedule. First sip of coffee and it happens.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

So I'm doing this Trans Virginia start at 5:30am at the Lincoln Memorial. The first day I do 150 miles and go to sleep at 9pm 9pm, sleep nine hours, wake up, make my coffee, and nothing happens. For the first, like, first time in a very long time, I don't have to go to the bathroom. And. And I'm one of those people that I have to go before I'll eat. Yeah. I refuse to eat before I go.

Zach Badger Davis

Is that a moment of panic or like, what the fuck?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Well, I was wearing a whoop strap at the time and I looked at my recovery score and it was very low. I was like, my body must be stressed. Yeah.

Katie

Is the refusal to eat emotional or physical? Can you do you feeling okay?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

On regular days, if I eat before I go, I can't go until the next day. So I just want to go. It feels so much better to go before I do any other activity. So I decided to get on my bike and continue on at a leisurely pace. I know there's a gas station coming up about 15 miles down the road. I'll stop there. Maybe I'll actually use their bathroom and it'll be comfortable. So I get there, still haven't eaten. Hang out, have a little more coffee. Maybe that will help. Nothing happens. I was like, okay, I'm gonna have a beer. I need to relax. So I have a beer outside the gas station. Still nothing. So I wait until the point where, okay, I feel like I can ride now. It's fine. Get back on my bike. About five miles down the road, I'm in a residential area and that's when I feel myself having. You know, and it's. It's either now or never. Up ahead, I see this bank of woods. So I ride up to the bank. I get off my bike, take off my sun hoodie. I've got bibs on. So it's like the singlet but with padded shorts. And I Run up this cliff and find a tree I can hold onto. If I'm not holding on to something, I'm falling. I start to take off my singlet, basically, while holding onto the tree, and I start to get it down, and then that's when it happens. And it's not a normal poo, it's a poo splosion. And it's all over my legs. All over the only bib I have for this trip.

Katie

Oh.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

And then I'm naked. I left everything, and I forgot to grab my wipes. So I'm stuck up there.

Zach Badger Davis

Poop all over everything, covered in shit.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Covered in shit. And I'm still hanging on to the. To the branch. No idea what to do.

Katie

But can you see the residential area if people looked out their window and

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

people were driving by?

Katie

Oh, no.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

I mean, I'm in some woods, so you'd have to be looking, but my bike is down there, so probably somebody looking to see where I'm at.

Zach Badger Davis

So.

Katie

Yeah.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

And I'm very white down there, so it's like a flashlight.

Zach Badger Davis

Do you put this shitty bib back on, or.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Okay, I take off. I take off my shoes, still holding onto the branch, take off the bib. So I'm completely naked, get my shoes back on, and I'm trying to, like, wipe myself off as much as I can with leaves. Wiping my bibs on a rock, just trying to get as much of it as I can off.

Katie

What time of year is this? How many leaves are there?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

It's. There's not many.

Katie

Okay.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

I mean, it is, like, beginning of June, so there were some, but there's not a lot going on. So I sneak back down to my bike. Luckily, my bike bag on my. My seat bag, I can grab and pull it out of, like, a holster. And so I grab that, go behind a bush, get my wipes. I only have, like, five, so that doesn't clean me up all the way.

Zach Badger Davis

You're still naked. Yes.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yeah. Yeah.

Zach Badger Davis

And you're retrieving your bike, which is on the road.

Katie

You're on a list. You're on the list somewhere.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

There's people driving by, and I'm trying to do quickly. Nobody honking. Nobody honked, luckily. And there is a little bush at the front there that I'm kind of hidden, but I do it as quickly as possible.

Zach Badger Davis

You must look crazy.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

I look crazy.

Katie

Someone else is telling this story too,

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

but I'm sure there was this naked guy covered in shit behind this bush. So I clean up as best I can, and I strap My shitty bibs on the back of my bike on top of the bag. And I go back to the gas station and I take a kind of a bath in the sink area and I try to clean up, but the whole rest of the trip, I just smell shit the entire time. It's like it never goes away. I even got to a place where I was able to do laundry and take a shower, and still it must have been on my bike somewhere. Yeah. It was just everywhere.

Katie

Just emotionally to that. You smell it once, that's going to stay with you.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

I almost quit. I was like, I can't do this. Like, nope, I'm not going to let shit stop me.

Katie

How far into the trail were you? Was this, like, day two of the trail, or were you.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

This is day two.

Katie

Oh, no.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yeah. So I was probably 175 miles in.

Katie

Oh, you're stronger than me. I would have quit.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yeah.

Katie

I would have tried again next week.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

I. It was only five days. I had to do it. So I was like, I'm not. I'm not quitting. It's okay if I smell like crap doing this thing. And I did.

Zach Badger Davis

Do you attribute the explosiveness of your shit to the fact that you'd only had beer in your system for that day, or.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

I think that certainly helped, but it was also the crap I was eating the day before. Yeah. I was like, I'm doing 150 miles. I can eat whatever I want. Stop and get a cheeseburger, you know, and that. My body's not used to that.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah.

Katie

Once you pooped, were you able to eat?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

I was. I was hungry, but I had to clean up first. And of course, I was nervous that I just smelled really bad the entire time. But I went and got stuff at the gas station. More crap. And luckily I was pretty normal the rest of the trip.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

And thankfully, there was a hotel halfway that I could shower. But that is the reason why I now carry a bidet everywhere with me.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

I refuse to go.

Katie

Do you have it on your backpack? No way.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

I keep a little portable bidet with me everywhere, but I take it backpacking, and that is, like, that's the piece of gear that I love and keep with me.

Katie

What bidet do you use?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Backpacking? Mostly the igneous gear, bottle cap bidet. But I've got a tushy travel bidet.

Katie

Okay.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

That I've started taking with me because I like it so much. But that's the one I keep with me.

Katie

That's the one piece of gear I tried. And I understand the appeal of it. And I just have not brought it on another trip since.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

That's very. I think because I also use one at home. I. I refuse. I don't understand using toilet paper. You're just smearing dry paper and poop into yourself.

Zach Badger Davis

It seems it doesn't make sense on the surface as a person that uses toilet paper and hasn't crossed over to bidet land. Like when you just. There's no real defense for it other than like I've just been doing it my entire life. Yeah.

Katie

I also. I'm a morning pooper. And usually maybe it's the. The west Mountain west of it all. I'm so cold. The last thing I want to do is then spray water on me.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

That's why when I'm making my coffee, before I put the coffee in, I put a little bit of the boiling water into my water bottle. If it's cold outside when it's hot, I want cold water down there.

Zach Badger Davis

There's got to be a patent pending in there to get the temperature just to the right amount for your bung depending on the ambient temperature. Do you have the heated bidet at your house?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

I sure do.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

I love that thing.

Zach Badger Davis

That's. That's the move. Yeah. Taking a big dump on an empty stomach is a very good feeling. You're like a brand new person.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yeah.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

And I felt like a brand new person. But with all a worse person.

Katie

But a new person, things had changed for the worse.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yeah.

Zach Badger Davis

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Andrew Livingston (Coach)

All of the above. Okay. Certain rules. Like I, I intermittent fast. I'll do two meals a day instead of three. I usually feel better and can maintain with that. But even if I'm, if I'm really stressed, that doesn't work. It's like my body adapts to whatever I'm doing and I have to switch things up. Yeah. Even if it was working for six months to a year, all of a sudden it's not working anymore. Yeah. So I've got to figure out another way. But always being healthy, trying to eat clean all the time. I don't like, starve myself or if it's my birthday, I'm gonna have a piece of cake. You know what I mean? I'm not crazy like that. I have been in the past.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah, so you're very regimented. You don't have like cheat days or cheat meals?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Don't do that. I've tried it in the past.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

It just doesn't work for me.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah, you have more willpower than I do because. Yeah, I, at some point I have like a psychological break. If I've had too many healthy meals in a row, I need like three spoonfuls of Nutella at 11pm before I fall asleep.

Katie

I feel like I'm more similar to you where I'm almost. Well, not that this is you, but for me, I'm so undisciplined that I can't have cheat days because if I give myself one day, my brain is like, well, we're done. We're just, we're doing whatever we want now.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

I felt, I felt great that one day, why can't I do it again? I didn't gain any weight on one day. I can eat more, more. Now it's a downhill spiral for me.

Katie

It's that with doing my physical therapy exercises, I'll 14 days in a row and then I'll be busy and I won't, I'll skip a day and then my brain's like, well, okay, we're done.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

It's still fine.

Katie

Never, never go to the gym again.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

That Is it? Yeah. But I am consistent about the gym. I love working out. I love hiking. I love biking. I just. I feel better doing that. And I know it's relieving a lot of the stress of totally running the businesses.

Zach Badger Davis

And that's the thing that I think I'm most grateful for with having been fat at some point was like, it forced me to exercise consistently to now them, like, viciously addicted to exercise.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yes.

Zach Badger Davis

The healthiest habit that I have. And it's like I go crazy if I go two days without exercise at this point. Same here.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yeah, I go. I go crazy not exercising one day, but I give myself a rest day

Zach Badger Davis

a week, you know, how do you manage all that while traveling? Like, something like this?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

I. I chose my hotel based off the gym in the hotel.

Zach Badger Davis

Okay.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

So, yeah, I've. I've worked out every day in the gym up there, whether it's lifting weights or even walking uphill on the treadmill or doing the elliptical. Just as long as I'm moving. You know, I've got the Apple watch with the. I've got to fill those in. Yeah. That's obsessive for me. I've got to fill in the.

Zach Badger Davis

I feel the worst when I don't close the stand one. Like, it's so embarrassing. Like, I can't stand 14 times in a day. Like, what is happening with my life?

Katie

Walking back to the conference yesterday, how many steps did you get?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yeah, yesterday. I mean, I can look. I did look the first day. I got, like, 23,000. Because I was also walking back and forth from the hotel, and then I found out they let you take a bike. So yesterday I took a bike, and I got, like, 15,000. Yeah.

Zach Badger Davis

What are some of the more surprisingly challenging parts of running an outfit outfitter? Like, do you have certain brands that you work with where, like, they can be challenging personalities? I see a smile.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

I mean. Yeah. And reps. It's more about the reps than the brand. Reps are trying to make money by how many sales they're getting. So they'll. I can't trust a rep to tell, especially working with a big brand. They're trying to get me to buy what everybody else is buying, but not specifically what I need for my shop. And I learned that pretty early on. Luckily, I had a rep who was very clear about this is like, you can't trust anybody, even sometimes me. I'm gonna try to get you to buy things, think about what you need for your shop, and only buy that. Be willing to say no. So yeah, Working with reps is tough. And big brands. I don't like working with big brands because I never get to talk to the people making the gear. I'm talking to the accounts receivable department or the rep. That's a part of a completely different business, repping the company. But with these small businesses, I get to talk to the owner about a piece of gear and what I think they should work on later on. And with a big brand, it's like, yeah, I don't know. I just can't. It's frustrating, but ordering. Knowing what to order has been the most difficult. Before I opened, many sleepless nights staring at order forms, especially with apparel. How much of this do I need?

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Should I just try one of each thing right now, see how it does and see if I can order more? Oh, no. You have to order a minimum of $10,000 worth of clothes in order to buy into this brand. So, yeah, it was fun.

Katie

What about the hikers themselves? Are any at hikers ever difficult about what you do or don't carry or.

Zach Badger Davis

We've.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

We've been pretty lucky because we have brands that a lot of them don't see that they're all of a. They're impressed right away. So even if we don't have something, I carry what hikers need. That's kind of been our thing. But let's say we're sold out of it. They're not. They understand. They understand. Like, especially after the bubble comes through, we're wiped out and I have to start my reordering process. And all the later hikers are like, oh, you don't have any peak refuel meals left? Like, the bubble just came through. They're on the way. But yeah, I mean, there's definitely difficult hikers, but they're usually happy with what we have in the shop.

Zach Badger Davis

Do you get a Sobo bubble?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

It's not as big. And I feel like by the time sobos get to us, they've spent most of their money and they've already dialed in their gear. So they're not spending the big money. They're buying resupply. They will buy some, like, oh, they see a jolly gear shirt they've been looking at online forever. Let's switch out to that. Yeah.

Katie

I feel like if you only have 500 miles left, you can stretch anything.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Exactly.

Katie

Just to the end.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

And that's what they're thinking. I made it this far. I can make it 500 miles without spending more money. Yeah.

Katie

How is it managing both the hostel and the shop in Conjunction, because I'm guessing they have very different needs.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Luckily, I have an amazing woman who's hiked the trail three times. Ram Bunny, Color Bunny, who's run a hostel before. And she is in charge of the hostel. She's made it what it is. I just pay her, and she makes it happen. And I barely ever have to go up there anymore. Like, the first six months I was doing it, and I had no idea what I was doing. And then she came in and just changed everything. In a good way. Yeah. I mean, she is. She's beat cancer four times.

Katie

Whoa.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

She is unbelievable. She's a powerhouse. A few different kinds. Lung cancer, breast cancer. Yeah. Wow.

Zach Badger Davis

That's incredible.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yeah.

Zach Badger Davis

Tell us about the hostile. Like, what's the charm? What's the unique.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Let's write down to. So our store is right downtown Marion, Virginia, right on the main street. So you've got the little shops and restaurants right there. It's right above the store. We also have an apartment you can rent if you don't want to be in the big group of people. There's three bunk rooms, one private room. We turn a bunk room into a private room every once in a while. That has just two beds in it. It's just cozy, I guess. And Bunny has decorated it in a way that makes it feel like home. You also. We also have a big old claw foot bathtub, and we give people Epsom salts so they can sit there and soak for a while.

Katie

Can't tell if that sounds nice or. I'm just picturing being 10th in line of 80 hikers coming through the same claw foot bath.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Like, we can only really carry, I think at its when it's full. There's 13 hikers in there.

Katie

Oh, okay.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

And not everybody's taking a bath. There's also a couple of showers in there. So most people are spending maybe a half an hour in the bath. And. Yeah, it's not. It's not too bad.

Katie

That's not too bad.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yeah. Small, Quaint. Yeah.

Zach Badger Davis

What's the Groteus task associated with running a hostel? Maybe Bunny was the better person to ask for this, but probably are pretty

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

nasty the amount of trash hikers leave behind. Yeah. Because they are opening every package and making it smaller. And we're just left with all of it. Yeah.

Zach Badger Davis

That was the first thing that Katie did intelligently when we went to the media room. They give you a bunch of free stuff, and she's like, stripping away all the plastic.

Katie

I'm halfway through and I'm Like I don't know why I'm doing this. I'm just instinctually now.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah, you're through. Hiker instincts kicked in.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

We did learn early on not to let hikers use the bathroom in the shop because no matter what, it was always to poop. And we had many times. This one time a guy left his poopy underwear behind the toilet and there was poop on the wall. So we learned. Or that was cleaning up. That up is the worst. Cleaning up.

Zach Badger Davis

I want to know that story.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yeah.

Katie

What happened process on that one?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

I have no idea. He. I was not there that day. Ash said he could use the bathroom and that's how he left it. I found it the next morning because she didn't go use the bathroom again.

Katie

That guy was like, oh, I can't eat until I poop and I haven't pooped yet.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

That's it.

Zach Badger Davis

I've only had three beers today. I don't know what's going on. How much does your family get involved in the hiker trash culture of your business?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Well, my wife is the director of tourism for Smith County.

Zach Badger Davis

Oh, that's cool.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Which is why we opened in Marion, which Marian is in Smith County. She did this economic study that told her what was needed, what businesses were needed in the area. Number one was an outdoor store, number two was lodging. So a lot of her job is bringing outdoor recreation to the area because it's a big tourism driver. So that much. My kids, they will be working in the shop when they're old enough, 13, I'm going to put them to work. So they will be a part of that hiker trash community. And they love the idea of it. They ask me about thru hikers every day. They want to know the funniest trail name that I heard that day. So they're excited about it. But right now Marion is also a half an hour away from where I actually live in Abingdon, Virginia. So they're mostly staying at school in Abingdon and on the weekends they'll come up to the shop some.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah, Abington's a cool little town. That's for many years of trail days. That's where I would stay in Damascus. What's the little coffee shop in town there? And maybe it's not even there.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Will Phil's or Zazzy's Zazzies. It's not there anymore, but I love Zazzies. That hurts.

Zach Badger Davis

I've spent many, many hours at Zazzies. Yeah, and what the barbecue place? Bone Fire.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Bone Fire is no longer there either.

Zach Badger Davis

What's going on in the world.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

He retired. Okay. Yeah. Somebody tried to take it over and just couldn't do it.

Zach Badger Davis

I will say, the last time I was there, the vibe felt different. So I'm guessing that was probably the new ownership.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

It's really tough to open a business in Abingdon. Yeah. Rent is high and they're just very strict about everything.

Zach Badger Davis

Is a lot of the economy centered on the Creeper Trail? Does the Creeper Trail go through Abingdon?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

It starts in Abingdon.

Zach Badger Davis

Okay.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

So it's not the most popular section, but it has been the past couple of years. Yeah, it starts in Abingdon and goes all the way up to White Top. It's uphill. No, it's downhill to Damascus, uphill back to Abingdon, and once you get to Damascus, it's uphill to Whitetop. It's a big part of it. But. So it's Creeper Trail, Barter Theater, the Martha Washington Inn. Those are the tourism drivers in Abingdon. My wife was also tourism in Abingdon before taking on Smith County. So I know a little bit about it.

Katie

I've only been to that Walmart, but it's a great Walmart.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

It is a great Walmart. Yeah.

Zach Badger Davis

That's where we get all our shenanigans for trail days.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Oh, yeah.

Zach Badger Davis

Okay. Hiker hiking out of Damascus north on the trail.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yes.

Zach Badger Davis

Do they stay true to the AT or do they hike the Creeper Trail?

Katie

And which one should they do?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yeah, most people hike the Creeper Trail. Yeah. You should stay true.

Zach Badger Davis

You think so?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

I do. I do. It's hard. Cooper Trail is easy. I think you should experience the hard. Yeah, I know the Cooper Trail used to be the 80, didn't it? Yeah, I think. Yeah, all of it. But I don't know. You do whatever you want.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Really. But I like the True. I've noticed this year there's a reroute from Damascus to Mount Rogers. A lot of people are skipping ahead, like getting shuttled ahead to the open part so they can do Buzzard Rock, White Top area and not doing the reroute. But I feel like this year you should, you know, the AT is a part of the reroute. So do the reroute instead of skip ahead.

Katie

Are you a purist in general?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

I think so. Yeah. But again, do what you feel like doing.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah. With getting so many hikers into your shop, do you have any good recent through hiker stories? And I have a backup question if the answer is no there, because the other one is you're also privy to so Many different trail names.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Are there any.

Zach Badger Davis

Do you ever get trail names that stop you in your tracks or, like, I need to know the story behind that one?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Absolutely. Well, through hiker's story, it's amazing how many through hikers expect. Expect from you. Like, we had a hiker come down to stay in the hostel and say, I need you to plan my next hundred miles

Katie

walk.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

What do you mean? Yeah, where do I resupply? Where should I sleep? Which hostel should I stay at? And so my employee Ash sat there on Far out and wrote out his plan for the next hundred miles.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

And that happens often, huh? But it's just surprising, like, you're hiking the trail, do your thing. Yeah.

Katie

Is there a community amongst these hostel owners? Do you have friendships with people that you'd always refer to that hostel? Is there like a political game in that? Political?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

No, not political. We all are on an email thread, so if there's a trouble hiker, we email, say, don't let this person say you're hostile. I'm friends with like, Tina at Quarterway, so I usually suggest they go there because it's the perfect. It's. If you're staying at a lot of hostels, it's 20 miles down the trail. Stay there.

Zach Badger Davis

Next, when you get a problematic. I've always wondered this. When you get a problematic hiker that is getting like, barred from hostels, how do you communicate that when they come up to the hostel?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

So what I've been trying to train my employees to do is ask trail names first and then say, I will see if we have bunks available. They go check the list. They're on the list. I'm sorry, we're full tonight.

Katie

Do they ever hear you tell the next person, yeah, we're wide open. Yeah, come on in.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

No, it's not that often. So, like, this year, we didn't have any trouble. Hikers come in, we had people on a list, but they didn't show up. At our hostel. A few years ago, we did and he did show up. And that's when I learned, because I let him stay and I didn't know. I said we were. We had bunks available before I asked his trail name. Then I asked his trail name. He's like, okay. And I was just straight up with him. I'm sorry, man. You're not allowed to stay with. You can't stay with us.

Katie

What makes someone. Is it just they are a bad guest or they are a danger on the trail?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

All of the above. One year was bothering women like Stalking women. And there's been people who party and stay up. Wait, like, I did have to kick somebody out this year for staying up until 3, 4 in the morning, getting drunk and screaming as loud as possible. But he was black. He didn't realize he was doing it. He was blacked out.

Katie

Was he just was gone or did you then email ahead and warn.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

No, he was. I had to go wake him up. He was supposed to check out at 10. He was still asleep at like noon. I went and woke him up. He was going to stay another three days.

Katie

Oh, wow.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

I said, I'm sorry, you're. You're going to have to leave.

Katie

Did you pass? This is why hostels up the trail.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yeah, we texted everybody, all our friends and email and it's a part of it, unfortunately.

Zach Badger Davis

That's tough.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Come Bubbles is the trail name.

Zach Badger Davis

Come Bubbles.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

I had to throw that out. Okay.

Zach Badger Davis

There's got to be a story there. Do you.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

He said, it's not what you think.

Katie

I don't even know what I would think that is.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yeah, that's that. Because I asked him how did you. It's not what you think.

Katie

Yeah.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Okay. I don't even want to tell you why I have that name.

Katie

Well, that makes me think it is

Zach Badger Davis

what I think it's gotta be.

Katie

It's gotta be what I think.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yeah.

Zach Badger Davis

Somehow I can picture it, but I don't know how it's happening. I know what it looks like, but I don't know the science behind it.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

It doesn't make sense. But somehow he got that name.

Zach Badger Davis

Uh, okay.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

It's on our wall in our hostel. He wrote it out.

Katie

Oh, he didn't sign it. Oh, yeah, perfect.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

I guess he's proud of it.

Zach Badger Davis

Do you do a hiker wall each

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

year or what's the setup? No, it's all the stairwell up to the hostel. Both sides. Yeah. Just let people sign it.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah. We need the hiker network to circulate to get the story back to us. How come Bubbles came to be.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Right.

Katie

We're just going to get an email that says it's not what you think.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yeah.

Katie

You don't have to name any names, but are there any hostels that if someone says they're staying there, you would say? I would. I would change that plan.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Um, yes. Okay.

Katie

Interesting.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Problem is, is it's before us, so we get a lot of hikers calling us while they're there saying, can you come pick us up?

Katie

Oh, wow. That bad? Yeah, interesting.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah.

Katie

Once we stop recording, you have to tell me what that Is.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah. What's the story with the turtle tattoo? That's a cool tattoo.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

This is our logo. Oh, Marion Outdoors logo. It's kind of a realistic version of it.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

But the logo idea actually happened when I was on the Trans Virginia as well, because I was getting off my bike to move turtles. The whole time, I was like, oh, a turtle is like a backpacker. Carries a tome on his back. Yeah. That should be my logo.

Zach Badger Davis

Can we look forward to like a custom turtle jolly anytime in the future?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

I thought about it. I need to save up some money for it because I have to. I have to get like 200 of them. Yeah.

Zach Badger Davis

He told me the minimums and it was like, I. I can't. I can't do that. Yeah.

Katie

The titanium spork as well is a nice tattoo.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Thank you. Got that in Colorado this past year. I'm a fan of it. Yeah.

Zach Badger Davis

You were in Durango, right? Was that for oms?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Oh, yeah, yeah. I was there.

Zach Badger Davis

I was supposed to. I was supposed to go to that night. I know.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Oh, it was great. I really enjoyed it.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah. Apparently once you get old, things just start.

Katie

Every time I've talked to you in the past few months, something horrible is happening.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

I turned 40 and it was just downhill from there.

Katie

Yeah. Yeah.

Zach Badger Davis

It's rough.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

How old are you? 44.

Zach Badger Davis

Okay.

Katie

Yeah.

Zach Badger Davis

I turned 40 this past year. Nice. Yeah.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Are you going to OMS this year? Asheville, North Carolina?

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah. I know it's hard because my kids are young.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yeah.

Zach Badger Davis

So the travel is a little bit more strenuous and I've got a lot of travel on the calendar upcoming, so I think I might have to miss it this year, but I totally understand. I do love Asheville very much as a craft beer fan myself.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yeah.

Zach Badger Davis

We held a hiker meetup at. Is it High wire? Yeah, High wire is awesome.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

That is a good one. Yeah.

Katie

How have you seen the towns recovering post Helene?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Surprisingly well. I think the Creeper Trail is going to be open again this fall.

Katie

Oh, wow.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yeah. So fast was.

Katie

Marion came together hard by that.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Pretty hard. It was mostly the outside. Like downtown was fine. We didn't even lose power. But outside of it, like near the rivers and stuff like that. Flooded pretty bad. Yeah, it's.

Zach Badger Davis

It's.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

It was so selective though, like where it hit. It's like it went right next to downtown Marion and hit all these other houses and. Yeah. But everybody's doing. Seems to be doing really well.

Katie

That's really good. I feel like I would not have predicted that two years ago the Trail

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

maintainers went out and fixed the trail up, made it ready for the at season the very next year.

Katie

Wow. Nothing garners crowd support more than a threat against the atv.

Zach Badger Davis

It's true.

Katie

It's the fastest way to rally.

Zach Badger Davis

Yep.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

The community is amazing.

Zach Badger Davis

What's the status of Hot Springs? I know it's like the. There's a hostel back there. I think the restaurant's back, but, like, is the town. Does it feel like it's back?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

I don't know that. Okay. I haven't been to Hot Springs in a long time. I've heard good things. Like, the outfitter, I think is open again. I thought they were open pretty soon after that.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Were they? I feel like somebody from Hot Springs was at trail days this year, and I didn't get a chance to talk to them.

Zach Badger Davis

I didn't go to trail. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Katie

It was perfect weather. I'm gonna keep trying to give you fomo.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

It was the best trail days.

Katie

It was great. Zach told me, even if the forecast says no rain, bring rain gear. It's gonna rain.

Zach Badger Davis

It rains every year.

Katie

It was 70 and sunny Friday.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Amazing. Yeah.

Katie

Yeah.

Zach Badger Davis

I think my last question is, what do you see for the future of Marion outdoors? Because I know obviously in a digital landscape, selling online seems like the obvious.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

I. I really don't focus a lot on our e commerce store.

Zach Badger Davis

Okay.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

It's really there when people want to support us. We appreciate it. You know, go to marionoutdoors.com and spend us some money if you can't make it to the shop. But I. I want to focus on the experiences in the shop because I had such issues growing up going to a shop where they just be like, here, take this backpack. And it being too big, I want you to get the full experience of backpack fitting. Really talk through your shoes and your feet, pack up your backpack, bring all your gear in so you can really find the right backpack. If you want to set up a tent, if you want to blow up your sleeping paddle, go for it. Let's find the right gear for you. And I'm going to tell you the truth about all of it.

Katie

Yeah.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

What I've tried. What I haven't.

Katie

If you need to dispose of your poopy underpants, you have a bathroom for that.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

How you do it? Yeah.

Katie

Solving all the problems.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

We do not allow hikers in there anymore.

Zach Badger Davis

But customers are allowed in.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Cut. Nope.

Zach Badger Davis

Okay.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

If we know them. If we know them, yes.

Katie

But I'm gonna buy the cheapest thing in your store and then ruin your Bathroom.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

I mean, even if hikers buy something, we cannot let them in there. There's a bathroom next door they can use. It's fine. But yeah, the experience, the growing the community and I feel like we're trying to do that online as well. I love the idea of the community and all supporting each other. I even tried to start a Facebook group where we can all support each other. That's kind of my goal. And I love making content, so I do want to go more into that. I'm looking for somebody like a business manager that can take over the money side because I hate dealing with that stuff. I'd still be in charge of what's coming in the shop and the experience you get when you get in there. But I want to make more content and help more people. And it's become also become profitable. Everything I make online goes straight to the business. Like, January was really tough this year. Economy was awful at the time and I didn't think I was going to be able to pay my employees. But luckily videos money earned from videos online helped pay my employees.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

So I'd like to grow that side of it.

Zach Badger Davis

Well, I hope you can focus more time on the content because you're excellent at it.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Thank you.

Zach Badger Davis

You've got a podcast as well.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

I do. It's kind of been difficult to keep going at this time, but yeah, we've got Chafed Outdoors podcast about all things outdoor activities worth getting chafed for. Type 2 fun, where it's really just me interviewing somebody, letting them talk as much as possible while I keep feeding them prompts to keep talking. But I've been interviewing a lot of small business owners and it's been interesting to listen to how they got started and why they're doing what they're doing.

Katie

Yeah.

Zach Badger Davis

So what is the best shape chafe? Prevention or cure? What's your management system for chafing?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Finding good underwear ex officious. Once I found ex officio underwear. Yeah. I haven't been chafed since. Yeah.

Zach Badger Davis

Do you carry sacks?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

I don't, but I've tried them and they just don't work for me.

Zach Badger Davis

Oh, interesting. I love sax. I also love ex officio. I. I can go back and forth, but I think I've got sax slightly above ex officio right now.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

There's something about the 9 inch ex officio that works for me.

Katie

Oh.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Anything lower than that, I'm getting chafed.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah. Okay.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

I've got the big old thighs. Yeah. They rub together.

Zach Badger Davis

We do have to conclude with our sponsor question. The peak Performance question presented by Topo athletic. Use code Trek15Topo@Topoathletic.com. i have to double, double check that code. It might be the other Topo 15 or Trek. It's one of the two. It'll be in the show notes. Check out the show notes. What is your top performance enhancing or backpacking hack?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Wow. Performance enhancing hack.

Zach Badger Davis

We can shift it to the morning.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Okay, so in the morning, make my coffee, usually Cafe Bustello instant coffee. Then I add an element caramel chocolate to it.

Katie

Whoa.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Maybe, you know, what's the powdered breakfast essentials? Maybe throw that in there. And that's my coffee and breakfast every morning. And it just wakes me up. I'm hydrated and I'm ready to go.

Zach Badger Davis

Ready to take a dump? Yes, indeed.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Hopefully I prepare my cat holes the night before.

Zach Badger Davis

Oh, that's beautiful. Brilliant. I mean, that could have been an answer too, that we had a two for one.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Prepare your cat hole.

Zach Badger Davis

That's excellent.

Katie

I had a friend on the CDT who did that, and I woke up one morning, I thought it'd be funny if I just went and stole it, use it. She didn't think it was funny, but I thought it was really funny.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

I worked so hard on that cat hole.

Katie

Yeah.

Zach Badger Davis

Coach, you're awesome. Thanks for everything that you do. Thank you for supporting the podcast. I do want to be explicit. Your support of the podcast has zero reason why you're sitting on this couch right now.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

I love the podcast. I want to support it.

Zach Badger Davis

Well, thank you so much. Your content's awesome. Let people know all the channels that they should go to to get more of you.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Instagram, MarianOutdoors, YouTube, Marion Outdoors, TikTok, Marion Outdoors, Facebook, Marion Outdoors. Chafed outdoors on all your podcast platforms and come to our shop in Marion, Virginia, downtown. 208 E. Main St. Shop@marianoutdoors.com I think that's everything.

Zach Badger Davis

Love it. Love it. Did it perfectly. Thank you so much for joining us here on backpack radio.

Katie

Thank you so much.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Thank you. That was fun.

Zach Badger Davis

To the trek propaganda portion of today's show. Very excited to have Katie here because she is our most prolific writer and we're often featuring her articles. And what better way to feature her article than to have the author herself share the article with you, the listener.

Katie

Absolutely. So by the time this airs, this might be a little bit old, but for me right now, recently we went to 80 trail days where we got the chance to talk to a bunch of hikers. And one question we asked them was what their favorite Piece of gear was about 500 miles into the trail. So we put together an article with some of our answers. The ones we heard the most. Gossamer gear. The LT5 trekking poles. Uh, that came up a handful of times. We also heard several water bottles. Smart water variations. The Migo bottle. The through bottle seems to be the trend.

Zach Badger Davis

Was there one that stood out the most to you in terms of.

Katie

We heard both a lot. But we had one person who talked about the Mego like it saved his life.

Zach Badger Davis

I don't know enough about the Migo. Tell me about the Migo.

Katie

I. So I've tried it. It's by Mazama Designs and Miranda goes outside. Both great people to support. And it is a little bit wider than a smart water bottle. And the draw of it is it's screws off at the top into a wide mouth bottle and has the little cap to be smart water bottle size.

Zach Badger Davis

Interesting.

Katie

So it makes it easier for water collection and it makes it easy to filter. My only gripe with it and it's user error. And I know it's user error. I just don't play around when it comes to water filtering is when I squeeze the bottle to filter. I've often squeezed too close to the threading of where it screws to make it wide mouth. And I pull the threading apart. And so I've gotten dirty water and my clean water. The answer is just be more aware when you're filtering water and you won't have that issue.

Zach Badger Davis

But that's a good thing to highlight because somebody who's doing this for the first time might not even be aware that they're doing that.

Katie

Yeah.

Zach Badger Davis

Potentially drinking contaminated water.

Katie

I've gotten sick once from contaminated water. So now anything that messes with my water filtering, I don't.

Zach Badger Davis

That's a good thing to be sensitive.

Katie

I don't do anymore. But for sure people love it. It might just not be the bottle for me, but I recognize it's a great design and it's. It was one of the first too to kind of fill that niche. And it's. It's great. And I've heard great things about it from A lot of people.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Love that.

Katie

And then I'll highlight one more. Our booth was across from Sam Bob. So I feel like the whole weekend we really did just have the sight line into his rotating door of people buying the Sambo. Specifically the Alpha 90 seems to be the biggest trend. The Friday of trail days you saw people walking around in all sorts of things. And then the Sunday of trail days, it felt like every third person had an Alpha 90 on.

Zach Badger Davis

I think some of the conversations we had yesterday were off the record. I'm guessing this one was, but let's just say that there's some cool fabrics in the pipeline. We can say that much.

Katie

Yes.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yeah.

Zach Badger Davis

I think things will probably look different

Katie

at this point, even a year from now. Yeah. Even with cottage brands, which is exciting.

Zach Badger Davis

That is exciting, for sure. I'd be remiss if I didn't ask, how was Trail Days?

Katie

Trail days was great. It was my first trail days ever. My first time spending that much time around 80 hikers.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah.

Katie

Which is great. I was telling. Telling you earlier how I feel like my interaction with at hikers is largely people who leave mean comments on my articles. So in my head, I have this very negative perception. And it was fun to go talk to real people who are not just saying mean things on the Internet and walk away with this idea of, oh, people are kind and nice. And it was very fun to talk to people. It was fun to see some people whose blogs I'd been reading get to catch up with them, meet them in person. We had a cherry pie eating competition.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah.

Katie

I'm sure you saw that. I'm sure you saw Vegas. That was wild.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yeah.

Zach Badger Davis

Vegas is undefeated in all these food competitions.

Katie

I. I don't know if this is true. Someone said he got second place in the rotisserie chicken last year.

Zach Badger Davis

Oh, I thought he won. I. Whoever said that?

Katie

I wasn't there.

Zach Badger Davis

So I. I have no idea what Jess would know. She's got a more reliable memory than I do. But I thought he won.

Katie

I've now already forgotten.

Zach Badger Davis

You know what? Maybe I think what happened was. Was he showboat. No, I don't remember.

Katie

I just heard from multiple people that the rotisserie chicken was hard to watch because at the end, it was just a crawl to the finish line. Whereas the cherry pie eating competition, maybe everyone else was crawling to the finish line. Vegas put that thing down, and he's not even through hiking this year. He just. He put it down. No problem.

Zach Badger Davis

Just have it. You know, he took a moment.

Katie

Yeah. He was on his last bite. He kind of looked around. Everyone else had easily half the pie left to go.

Zach Badger Davis

That's funny.

Katie

He savored it.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah. Yeah. The rotisserie chicken eating contest took way longer than anyone was anticipating. I think it was like 15 minutes is like.

Katie

So I got to point the sound of the oil.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yeah.

Zach Badger Davis

And hard to listen to once a rotisserie chicken is no longer Hot. It's a completely different meal. It's just. Yeah.

Katie

Coagulated.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah.

Katie

It's not oils.

Zach Badger Davis

It's not fun. Cool. What'd you think of the tent city slash giant bonfire scene?

Katie

It was great. That was very fun. Met a lot of people. Don't remember a lot of them, but everyone's. Everyone seemed great.

Zach Badger Davis

How does at this is probably the most obvious question of all time. How does 80 trail days compare to CDC?

Katie

It's not. It's not in the same book. It was wild. CDT Trail Days, very, very fun. Was much, much more mellow. Mostly just a vendor situation. Maybe I wasn't invited to the fun stuff, but it didn't seem. Not that the vendor stuff isn't fun, but it didn't seem like there was much of the social scene of it. And I. At least in my perspective, I think CDT Trail days is way too early. It is so early. Very few people are hiking into it. My year, it was April 21st, I think, and I think the average start date of the CDT might be somewhere in early May.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah.

Katie

So I know I went to CDT trail days and then took the shuttle from trail days to the terminus, but I. I think even I started kind of early, so I think it would probably be. I'm sure there's way more logistics. You can't just wave the magic wand, but if they just held it two weeks later, I feel like more people would hike into it.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah. I also feel like CDT Trail A should be like a mid season thing. I know it's hard because there's not that many through hikers and it's like a pretty good split compared to the other trails between northbound and southbound.

Katie

They have a southbound one too, I think, in Legill.

Zach Badger Davis

You know what? I have heard of that. Does anyone go to that?

Katie

I think, yeah.

Zach Badger Davis

Is that a CDTC sanctioned thing?

Katie

I have no idea.

Zach Badger Davis

Okay.

Katie

I don't associate with the Sobos.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah.

Katie

Well, I think the tough thing also with Sobos and Coach in the interview was saying this too. By the time you get that far into the trail, there's not really a bubble. It was just so spread out.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah. Maybe you're just trying to force a thing that really can't exist quite yet.

Katie

I think based on Instagram, which is never wrong, people seemed excited about it.

Zach Badger Davis

Okay.

Katie

People seem. And Leadville's a fun place to be.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah, Leadville's awesome.

Katie

And Silver City, which is what the Northbound Trail days is also great city.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yep.

Zach Badger Davis

I've heard good things.

Katie

Top 10 trail town on the CDT, in my objectively right opinion.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yeah.

Zach Badger Davis

Top 10.

Katie

Yeah. Maybe even higher.

Zach Badger Davis

I was going to say that 10 feels like a lot.

Katie

I guess 10's not. There's not that many trail towns. Maybe top five.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Okay.

Katie

I'm. I am struggling to think of many towns better than it.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah. All right, let's do the question of the day, which we have pivoted very last minute. Thank you for the recap of that article. When was the last time you were in a tornado warning?

Katie

Okay, let's see. This one's tough. I think this morning at 6:30am yeah.

Zach Badger Davis

We're looking at like five hours ago.

Katie

Yeah.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah. I'm operating on very little sleep right now because even before we got the. Everyone's familiar with the Amber Alert sound, we got one of those for weather to our phones at. Yeah. What was that? 6 or 5:30 in the morning?

Katie

Like that.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah.

Katie

I think between the hours of five and seven, I got four alerts.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yeah.

Zach Badger Davis

And prior to that, the storm was so violent that it actually kept me awake. Like, I'm usually pretty good at sleeping through storms there. The lightning was happening in my hotel room. Like, it was outrageous and it was persistent. It was going on for an hour. And then lo and behold. Yeah, we get the. The loud buzzing notification from our iPhones that there is a tornado warning. And then we got one like 15

Katie

minutes after that tornado has touched down.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah. And then we got a flash flood warning. Yeah. Things got wild here in New Orleans. I didn't even know you could get tornadoes in New Orleans. I didn't know this was a place for it.

Katie

I assumed if any strong wind happened somewhere this coastal, it was just considered

Zach Badger Davis

a hurricane for sure. Yeah. And I think it is. What's happening is related to a tropical storm. So we're getting tornadoes from hurricanes. We're basically in a Michael Bay movie right now.

Katie

This is wild.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah. So, yeah, I'm a little bit sleepy right now. I'm leaning on caffeine to get me to where we're going. But that was not something I had in my bingo card for a trip to New Orleans.

Katie

Neither of us checked the forecast either. Neither of us brought rain jackets.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yeah.

Katie

Couldn't have been raining the whole time.

Zach Badger Davis

Worse prepared. Yeah. Although in hindsight, I'm not even sure a rain jacket would have been good because it's. It's so fucking hot and muggy.

Katie

So humid. Yeah.

Zach Badger Davis

Actually getting a little bit wet feels good until you get back inside anywhere because air conditioning is blasting every. Every single building and vehicle is AC to the max the entire time out here, thankfully. Yeah. What's been your take on New Orleans at large? I know we haven't had a chance to see much of it. You and I both enjoy good food, which is probably like, the easiest thing. Yeah. I enjoy good music.

Katie

This is controversial. I really like when food tast.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yeah.

Zach Badger Davis

Maybe foodies is a way to describe it, but I think neither of us eat out that often, so I don't know if we could really accurately describe ourselves that way. But we're both excited at the prospect of going out and enjoying a couple meals in New Orleans. What has been your experience out here?

Katie

I would say it met expectations, but those expectations were pretty high.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah.

Katie

The food's been pretty unbelievable. We were saying we knew the food was going to be delicious when the kind of shitty conference meal that was served to us buffet style was pretty. Was better than most restaurants in Denver. It was pretty good.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yeah.

Katie

Yeah.

Zach Badger Davis

The beignets out of like, those trays.

Katie

Yeah.

Zach Badger Davis

Better than donuts than you can get in Denver.

Katie

Room temperature beignets that were an hour old were easily top three donut of the past year.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah. But where the hotel is happens to be like two blocks away from one of the restaurants that was recommended by several people. Of course, I always put out a call through Instagram about where can I get fat the fastest? And people had awesome restaurant recommendations. Cochon was one of the ones that had popped up multiple times from people and that's the first place we went to, just due to the proximity. I got the muffulata sandwich, which I had never had before. I'd heard of it. I didn't know what it was. And what did you have?

Katie

I got a pork. This is the only one I was disappointed by. Not because the food was bad, but I think I ordered wrong. I got the pork and cheese, which I didn't put any thought into it. And it came in. It's just a cheeseburger made out of pork.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah.

Katie

And a delicious cheeseburger made out of pork. But I feel like I was somewhere. Somewhere new.

Zach Badger Davis

Fancier.

Katie

Yeah. Or just different. I wanted not a cheeseburger.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah. My sandwich was fucking.

Katie

Your sandwich was incredible.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yeah.

Zach Badger Davis

You had a quarter of it. And I'm going to say top five sandwich of my life. And I can only think of, like, one other sandwich that actually stands out in my mind right now.

Katie

What was that sandwich?

Zach Badger Davis

That was the Cats delicatessen in New York.

Katie

I've been there.

Zach Badger Davis

Which is, I think, like one of the touristy areas but yeah, I got the pastrami sandwich and that was like, I was eating it while driving and I had the thought, like, I have to pull over so I can put all of my focus into eating this, because this is so good right now. I. Yeah, that was. That was definitely a moment. And the muffalado sandwich at Coach on was incredible.

Katie

Last night, I thought was the winner for me. I had the crayfish and fried drum, which is a fish. We learned.

Zach Badger Davis

Yep.

Katie

The coconut grits and then that curry and whatever was in that. Curry. Curry with the peppers.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yeah.

Zach Badger Davis

Your meal was fantastic. We started with the fried saltines and what was the name of the dish?

Katie

Yeah, something.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah, that was so good. Shout out to Grizzly, who's been on the podcast a handful of times. He is a foodie. He's a certified foodie and he recommended that.

Katie

So I did as predicted, kind of go to bed when we got back to the hotel, wake up at 11:30, go to the fridge, eat the rest of it, go back to bed.

Zach Badger Davis

I didn't even get near sleep before finishing mine. It was. And I was in bed just like moaning to myself. Yeah, it was so good. Yeah. I got some, like, pork dish, which the pork, like, melted like it was.

Katie

I touched it with my fork and it just disintegrated.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah. So the food part has definitely lived up to the hype. Is there anything else to touch on related to switchback? I feel like we touched on it a bit with Coach.

Katie

I feel like I'd have to check my notes and make sure I'm not saying anything.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah, that's off the record.

Katie

I shouldn't say.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah. In terms of products that we saw Coach actually hit on, the one that stood out most. Most to me is I thought the new line of sleeping pads from Sea to Summit looked really interesting. And the explanation behind how they were able to drop all the weights was really interesting, is that they're able to make the TPU coating on the inside thinner by, like mapping the TPU to exactly where it needs to be. And therefore it's thinner in the spots where you don't need it, which is like, apparently a very difficult process. But their lightest sleeping pad, like Coach mentioned, is like a R value of 4 and it weighs 11.5 ounces for, like a full size sleeping pad. For an inflatable sleeping pad, which is really good.

Katie

Rectangular or mummy.

Zach Badger Davis

That one is mummy.

Katie

Okay, that makes sense.

Zach Badger Davis

But the heaviest pad that they had in that lineup, the iron lineup, was a full rectangle and that was still less than a pound. And the R value on that one was like eight. Like, that would be like a winter sleeping pad. Yeah. Don't quote me on the numbers, but it's high. Yeah. I guess what stood out most for

Katie

you for, I think, also sleeping pad. But on the thermarest side, they. Last year. I don't know if it dropped last year. I just heard about it last year, but had the Neo Loft, that one that's 10ft thick and feels like a bed. And then obviously the X light, which is much more pared down, much more ultralight, and they're kind of coming out with this middle ground one. So it's a rectangular pad about half an inch thicker than the Neo Light or the X Light. Um, it has that brushed fabric on the top part of it. So if you're wearing shorts, it's. You're not gonna stick to it as much. Very quiet and pretty reasonably priced. For. For the lineup, it's $150.

Zach Badger Davis

Do you remember the weight on that one?

Katie

No. I would say something, but it. I'd kind of be making it up. I remember thinking it was what we

Zach Badger Davis

do here at backpacker.

Katie

It was something that I would call lightweight. Um, it's definitely the Neil Loft, I think, is a little out of my weight range that I'd be willing to do. Um, but I wouldn't necessarily call it ultra light.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yeah.

Katie

Um, I'm going to guess I'm going to say 16 ounces.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Cool.

Zach Badger Davis

You heard it here first. Official fact.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Good.

Zach Badger Davis

Anything else you want to touch on?

Katie

I think that was the big one for me.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah, we got a lot of free stuff.

Katie

Yeah, Actually, that was the other thing. Yeah, that was my. My takeaway was all the things I'm taking away.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah. I'm very excited to test out a new pair of Shokz headphones, which Katie secured because she's the queen of free. But this is. If you're not familiar with it, I wasn't until this year. Jolly was the one that told me about it. Fittingly, it uses at least many of their models use bone conduct conduction to give you the audio from what you're listening to, which I didn't know was the thing.

Katie

I was asking them what that was, and it kind of sounds like. So it just sits right on the bone. What's that bone called? I don't remember. Right here by your ear. And the speakers just face directly into your skin. So I think that's how I was trying them out. And it was very cool because I could hear very clearly the music. I could hear the guy talking to me very clearly. And then when he put them on and played music, I could not hear anything he was listening to because it seems like it would be something that it's almost a speaker by your ear, but it's just facing inward so it's only. You get the noise.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah. And as Katie mentioned, the obvious benefit to this for backpacking is you have your ear exposed. Like if there's a mountain lion charging at you, you get to hear right before you die, as opposed to when you've got AirPods and you have to die out of surprise like an idiot. So, yeah, having full. Because, like, I use AirPods for basically everything. I usually just hike with one in that way I can hear with the other. Being able to actually listen to music or podcasts or whatever in both ears while still being able to hear the environment around me. I'm excited for this.

Katie

And the Battery life is 12 hours. I always hike with wired earbuds because I'm just tired of charging things. Maybe I just have old AirPods that they last three hours.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah, yeah. When we picked up coach in the lobby downstairs, he was wearing them. He's like, I don't even realize that I have them on all day, every day.

Katie

Like.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah. So apparently people are familiar with shocks. This was new to me though.

Katie

We're late adopters for sure.

Zach Badger Davis

Cool. You want to do the triple crown?

Katie

Yeah, absolutely. So it's triple crown of. Let me check this. I think it's noises that make you happy. Yeah.

Zach Badger Davis

Sounds that trigger. I like the word trigger because it almost sounds like Pavlov's dog.

Katie

Yes.

Zach Badger Davis

Like, this is the sound that elicits happiness. The way that a dog would salivate at the bell.

Katie

Do you want to start?

Zach Badger Davis

You start.

Katie

Okay, I will take. It's very backpacking specific rain on tent, but specifically rain that has begun within five minutes of me setting up and getting into my tent. Because then I. I get the self satisfaction of I just missed it and I get to sit there and listen to it, but I don't get wet.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah, that's a great one. That's a really good one. I probably should have done something. Backpacking.

Katie

You hear like the first drop and you're like, yes.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Zach Badger Davis

That's a bummer with having the like two layer freestanding tents is like your shit's gonna get wet as you set it up. That is the nice thing about the trekking pole tents is you're actually able to keep stuff dry but yeah, I've been there many times. My first one, this was the one that triggered this category is the HBO sound. The. The static to the horn. I just feel like HBO punches so far above its weight, it doesn't put out that much original content. And it's home to all of the best, like Game of Thrones, Sopranos, the Wire. I could name a bunch of the lesser known ones that I actually really love. They did a Tenacious D series back in the day. God, what else does HBO have?

Katie

I did have honorable mention. The very first few noises of the Game of Thrones soundtrack just always would

Zach Badger Davis

get me hyped for sure. Yep. So, yeah, the HBO static is definitely like, oh, I. I'm about to watch something good. It's going to happen. Similarly, another thing that elicits happiness for a totally different reason is the United jingle.

Katie

I don't even know what it is.

Zach Badger Davis

I think it's Rhapsody in Blue is the song I'm singing. Goldeneye. I think this is going to bother. Mean that I can't pull it out, but I just associate that with like, I'm on vacation. For most of my life. I've flown United and yeah, that. This, that Rhapsody in Blue for me is associated with like, cool, I'm going somewhere. Whether it's work or for just pure vacation. Like, it's just nice to get out of the fucking house.

Katie

Funny enough, another honorable mention I had was the Denver Airport.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Oh, yeah.

Katie

Tram noise.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yep.

Zach Badger Davis

I feel like I want to pull that one out. I can't. I know you get the doors are closing.

Katie

Yeah, I can't sing.

Zach Badger Davis

But there is a jingle when you arrive to the baggage claim. Stop. You also get the mayor being like, welcome to Colorado. I think John Elway might have been the voice for a little bit, but yeah, that's a good one.

Katie

I had. I guess this is an absence of noise, but after a long day, when you drive home, you get into your garage or into the driveway and you turn your car off and then it's just complete silence. And you just sit and you rot in your car for 10 minutes before you go inside.

Zach Badger Davis

I don't think I've ever done that.

Katie

Really? Oh, that's my favorite. Just decompression.

Zach Badger Davis

Are you looking at your phone? Are you meditating?

Katie

I'm just. I guess maybe it's. I'm just sitting there.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah, it sounds like meditating.

Katie

Just sitting there kind of with terrible posture. Yeah, my face is totally relaxed.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah.

Katie

And I'm just.

Zach Badger Davis

When's the last time you worked in an office.

Katie

When's the last time I was in Golden?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

There you go. There you go.

Zach Badger Davis

You gotta de stress after the hellhole of going and hanging out with Zach and Jess.

Katie

Exactly. I feel like it's more doctor's appointments or just your social battery has run out and you're heading home from an event and you're just sitting. And you don't have to go inside yet. You don't have to do anything. You're just sitting there.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Huh.

Zach Badger Davis

I wonder if that's the thing. I wonder if other people do that. I've never had the thoughts to just hang out. It makes sense in my head.

Katie

Every single person does this, but I guess it's an alone thing, so I'd

Zach Badger Davis

never know if that's what I used poops for. This is a space where I'm just going to scroll my phone needlessly. I've been done pooping for 10 minutes now, and now I'm. My legs are going numb.

Katie

I've had my boyfriend text me before and be like, your find iPhone has said you're home for five minutes. Where are you? I'm just. I'm in the garage.

Zach Badger Davis

Okay. That's your sacred space. I love that. And you get one more.

Katie

My last one. My cat, um, he has a very specific noise he makes just to kind of let you know that he's acknowledging you. If you go pet him, even if he's awake, even if he sees you coming, he kind of lets out a brown. I love it. Sometimes I'll. I'll go pet him just to hear the. The brown. Yeah.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yeah.

Zach Badger Davis

That's adorable. I love that. My last one, I think inspired by this hotel because the elevator system sucks. The elevator ding. Like, the elevator is here. It's slow. Yeah. There's a lot of elevator traffic at this hotel. I'm usually waiting for, like, six minutes before I'm actually getting in. So, yeah, like, the actual audible satisfaction of knowing that it's arrived is like, fucking. Thank God. It's a relief.

Katie

Yeah. I think yesterday morning it was. This doesn't sound that long. I sound impatient now, but probably a good four minutes between when I press the button and I'm on the second floor.

Zach Badger Davis

So I think we're trained. Be like 30 seconds. Feels like a long time with an elevator.

Katie

Yeah.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yeah.

Katie

But I was just standing there. I couldn't immediately find this because, I mean, I also felt dumb. I was on the second floor. I could have just taken the stairs,

Zach Badger Davis

but they buried the stairs. I don't even know what the stairs Are.

Katie

I have no idea where they are.

Zach Badger Davis

I would gladly take the stairs if I could because everywhere is so well, air conditioned out here that it's not even that big of a deal. But. Yeah, I feel like I'm stuck to the elevator. Which I guess we should have known where the stairs are considering a tornado was ripping through.

Katie

Couldn't take the elevator this morning.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Zach Badger Davis

You have any honorable mentions?

Katie

No. It was the Game of Thrones. That's my big one.

Zach Badger Davis

Yep.

Katie

And the Denver Airport.

Zach Badger Davis

I have two honorable mentions. The microwave beep when it's done. Yeah.

Katie

Okay.

Zach Badger Davis

Yep.

Katie

I hate that noise.

Zach Badger Davis

I don't like the sound, but I like what it means.

Katie

That's fair.

Zach Badger Davis

I get to eat now.

Katie

I always stand by it. And I stop the microwave at 1

Zach Badger Davis

second left to stop the.

Katie

I don't want to hear it.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah, that makes sense. It's not. I mean, it's not a pleasing sound by its own nature. What it represents is what I like. And the last one is. I don't do this very often, but I think they've got a nice sound attached to it. Is when you complete something in duolingo.

Katie

Yes.

Zach Badger Davis

Like the blot.

Katie

I'm sorry, what is it?

Zach Badger Davis

Blut?

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yeah.

Zach Badger Davis

Paulie's gonna clip that for sure. They do a good job of making you feel like fuck Yeah. I am smart. I know how to say hola,

Katie

which

Zach Badger Davis

means bird in French.

Katie

One thing I'm thinking of now, I like the sound at the gas pump when the tank is full and it automatically turns off. It's like the.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah. I still give it one last little juicer after that.

Katie

Really?

Zach Badger Davis

I top it off.

Katie

Oh, I'm worried I'm gonna blow up the car if I do that.

Zach Badger Davis

Because it'll. It'll stop you. Once you get past that, there's actually like a real, real stop.

Katie

Oh, interesting.

Zach Badger Davis

You can get an extra. I'm gonna call it 1.3 seconds after your tank is full.

Katie

At some point in college, I watched some. They did the math YouTube video about how much gas people will waste in a lifetime with the drop that falls when they put it back in the gas stand. So now my weird neurotic thing is I stand there for 10 full seconds and just shake the thing until I do not spill a drop of gas. Yeah, I'm saving cents a year. It's. It's a great habit.

Zach Badger Davis

That's how guys go to the bathroom. Yeah. I thought you were going to pull out a stat and I'd be curious to see. This is like the Break even with people driving much further to go to the gas station.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

I've never understood that.

Katie

It's never as much, it's never that much of a difference. I mean, I guess I do have the gas stations near my house that I know are the cheapest, but it's just. I'll go south instead of north, but it's 0.2 miles either direction.

Zach Badger Davis

I feel like it's one of those things where the cheap gas station is never that much. Like you don't if it's 5 cents cheaper and you're getting 15 gallons, whatever that ends up being 60 cents. Like I know gas is outrageously expensive right now. Like, I cringe every time I go to the gas station.

Katie

What is it in Denver now or in Colorado?

Zach Badger Davis

I think the cheapest near us as of this recording is like 420.

Katie

Okay. Similar to Pennsylvania.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah. And we've got a sequoia, which is it? I think a 20 gallon tank. So like, yeah, it's, it's. There's not many vehicles that's suitable for three kids, a dog and like if you want to go somewhere, we have a ton of luggage as well.

Katie

A month ago gas was like 480 in Pennsylvania. That was tough.

Zach Badger Davis

Damn. I can't imagine what it's like in like California and Washington because every time I go to those places it's like, how do you guys live like this?

Katie

I don't know.

Zach Badger Davis

It's crazy.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Cool.

Zach Badger Davis

Those are the good sounds of life. Stone hoodie review. Yes. You'll have to listen to Thursday's episode. I do the Jolly Gear. Did you have another segment that you wanted to do?

Katie

We talked about maybe one minute. Gear review.

Zach Badger Davis

If you've got something, we can do it. If not, don't worry about it.

Katie

We can skip it.

Zach Badger Davis

Okay. You'll be on more episodes and you've tested.

Katie

I'm geared out after this weekend or this week.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Katie

Cool.

Zach Badger Davis

Mailbag.

Katie

Good high level advice on the Sawyer vs Brita filter and episode blank.

Zach Badger Davis

I'll give you the background on this. This was a question of mine is why does a Sawyer filter last for a lifetime but a Brita filter is like six months? Yeah, that was a question I had no idea how to answer.

Katie

So what does a Brita filter actually filter out? Maybe this is.

Zach Badger Davis

Maybe you might get the answer here,

Katie

but wanted to give some more context on water treatment from someone working in the water treatment and utility industry. Okay, perfect. I think this is going to be what I want it to be. Sawyer filters use hollow fiber membranes. To filter out bacteria, protozoa, et cetera, the membranes require back flushing to clean out the membranes as they fill up with the bacteria that it is filtering out. If back flushed regularly and not damaged by freezing or other issues, Sawyer filter will really last for a very, very long time. Brita filters are carbon slash activated carbon filters. These types of filters are basically compressed charcoal that serve a similar purpose of filtering out bacteria protozoa. The difference is that the carbon filter holds onto the bacteria that it is filtering out and carbon filters do not allow back flushing to get rid of the bacteria that the filter builds up over time. Basically a carbon filter is a one time use filter that has to be trashed once it is full of bacteria. A Sawyer membrane filter is a multi use filter that can be cleaned out and used for a longer period of time if maintained properly.

Zach Badger Davis

Daddy long legs. Shout out Daddy long legs.

Katie

Yeah, that makes sense.

Zach Badger Davis

It's nice always asking like our random dumb questions because we have a big enough audience and a cool enough audience that like we'll always get emails answering the questions in more depth, much like this. So shout out to daddy.

Katie

How often do you back flush your filter?

Zach Badger Davis

Because I've been screwed by that many times where I'll go out on a backpacking trip and then I'm stopping to filter my water for the first time and like I'm squeezing as hard as I can. It's like a drop and I'm like this is gonna ruin the next few days. I, I try to be religious about it, but yeah, I mean ideally every town.

Katie

Every town, yeah. Oh, I, I'm in the habit of back flushing every time I filter my water.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Oh wow.

Katie

I will filter it. Pop the filter off. I use the smart water bottle or I at least use the sport cap still. Yeah, just pop that on the top of the filter and give a two second squeeze.

Zach Badger Davis

And then I mean that's the way to keep it in like new condition forever.

Katie

So yeah, I feel like I'm usually not good at those discipline, just small daily drip habits. But that one I'm pretty good at just every filter I back flushed a little bit.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah, we should ask Travis what the like the minimum dose.

Katie

He's going to come back and be like you ruin your filter if you back flush it every time you've been drinking straight giardia.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah, but no, that's a way to never have a clogged filter when you head out to the trail and have that be a fun surprise for you because that's happened many times. Apparently activated Charcoal is like a very popular supplement in other countries, I guess places where like food poisoning is more common and that you take it either when you first start getting GI distress or maybe like preventatively.

Katie

Preventatively. And does it just soak everything up?

Zach Badger Davis

I guess it. Yeah, it interacts with the bad guys much the way that a Brita filter would and it makes you feel better. This is Zach Science Corner. This is fake Science Corner. I've also heard that activated charcoal can be beneficial for hangovers.

Katie

Hello.

Zach Badger Davis

We'll be done in 20 minutes. That was a guest appearance from the hotel staff. Okay, that is our cue to wrap this up. I'll get to the five star review. This is from Rome Burns. Missing Chaunce. This is an excellent and entertaining podcast with genuine thru hikers, not just people who go out for the weekend. This podcast has the best guests too.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

I agree.

Zach Badger Davis

Two things worth mentioning. First, co host Chaunce is leaving Denver and will no longer be a regular on the podcast. I miss her already. I especially enjoyed Chauncey's Women's Only podcast. How else could I learn to try to be less creepy or threatening on trail? Second, I like that this podcast has real hikers and not just weekenders. Weekend hikers are real hikers. But I get what you're saying. I'm not casting Shade at Weekenders. I love some of their podcasts too. It's just that some of the advice that comes with from the different backgrounds winds up being sufficiently different to make a real difference generally in money. Thank you for clarifying that. I also liked chatting with Jessica at at Trail Days last month. She's great.

Katie

She is great.

Zach Badger Davis

She is great. Jessica is great. And Jessica will be. Jess will be on the podcast a lot moving forward as well. But yeah, thank you Rome Burns for that review. If you guys want to hear your view right on this podcast, head on over to Apple Podcasts and leave us any number of stars.

Katie

Just not 1, 2, 3 or 4.

Zach Badger Davis

Nice. You knew that? I didn't even prime you for that.

Katie

That's going to be bad when we get to the list of names though.

Zach Badger Davis

Oh yeah. I'm going to grade you here on how many you get or don't get. I'll give you a minor pause at the places that you're supposed to fill in something.

Katie

I'm hoping to get three.

Zach Badger Davis

Three would be good. Super big thank you to. Oh wait, no. First, let's do the sponsor shout out. Shout out to topoathletic. Your trail runners are the best. I've been using them mostly Exclusively on trail for the last year. Plus I personally love the Pursuit 2s which isn't even like the top three of their models used amongst thru hikers. They've just really worked well for me. Do you use topos? I love topos.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Okay.

Katie

I used mostly topos on the cdt.

Zach Badger Davis

Okay. Yeah, Topo is great. Either zero or minimal drop, wide toe box. They last for a very long time. We've had gear reviewers. Brandon Chase got more than 1,000 miles out of one of the pairs that he tested. So yeah, Topoathletic is awesome. Use our code. Trek 15 Topo or 15 Topo Trek. Check the show notes. It'll be correct in there. We're having Internet issues so I can't actually reference it on my show notes. But for a 15% discount@topoathletic.com I always get the code. I think it's track 15 topo gun to my head.

Katie

Just try every combination.

Zach Badger Davis

Exactly. Get yourself a nice discount on your new favorite pair of trail runners. Okay. Super big thank you to our Bob Peoples award winners. From Patreon, Alex and Misty with navigators crafting. Alex kindle, Andrew Austin McDaniel, Bill Jensen, Brad and Blair from 13 Adventures. Brett Mullins aka Kruzy. Brian Allsup Fables.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Yeah.

Zach Badger Davis

Carl Lobster Hood. Christopher Marshburn. Clint Sitler. Coach from Marion Outdoors, Eric Casper.

Katie

Oh wait, the friendly Ghost.

Zach Badger Davis

Nice.

Katie

Also coach Marion outdoors.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah. Shout out to coach. Thank you so much for supporting podcast. Eric Hoffman. Ethan Harwell. Done. Jillian Daniels. Greg Knight. Greg Martin Griffin. Hey, would you bring me a bear? Haley Buckingham, London. I mean, you had the right idea. Palace.

Katie

Oh, okay.

Zach Badger Davis

Yep, you had the right idea. Jackson Storm. This is a new one.

Katie

Thunder noises.

Zach Badger Davis

Let's go with that. We're going to put the Katy spit on it. You have to do a thunder sound now. Yeah, I love that. Jared Knott from Subway. Jason Kaiser. Jason Zack is a little donkey girl. Snailer. Luke Natchez. Maddie in Arizona. Patrick C. And Cialo. Randy Sutherland. Rebecca Braveheart. Rural drawer.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

Rural Drew.

Zach Badger Davis

I think that's the point of the name is it's supposed to fuck me up. Congratulations. Sawyer products. The St. Louis Shaman. Timothy Hahn Solo. Nice. And Tracy.

Katie

Trigger happy. Trigger happy.

Zach Badger Davis

This one you wouldn't be able to infer. Chaunce does a really grumbly Fonz. Fonz. Very well. Thank you to Paulie Edible Old Man Murph's Coffee roasters. Go to ommcr.com get yourself some delicious beans. Appreciate Paulie as always. You can follow us on social Backpacker radio and Instagram and TikTok at backpackerpod x facebook.com backpackerradio I'm sweating, right? It's so hot in this room.

Katie

So hot. It's not actually. It's just humid.

Zach Badger Davis

Yeah, I had to turn off. I blasted the AC before the interview to get it, like, refrigerator cold, knowing that it couldn't come on during the interview because it is outrageously loud.

Katie

I'm so sweaty.

Zach Badger Davis

I know. And now we've been two hours of without the AC and I'm uncomfortable. That's not part of the show. Where can you follow Katie on social media?

Katie

I am on Instagram Aty Trail, and that's pretty much it.

Zach Badger Davis

Sweet. And please check out Appalachian Trials and Pacific Crest Trials on Amazon and leave a review and Chauncey's book Hiking from Home. Subscribe and follow us on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Follow us on YouTube. Hello, YouTube. Thank you for watching. Please do the comment, like, subscribe thing. And that is it for today's show. Thank you so much for listening and happy hiking.

Katie

Bye.

Zach Badger Davis

Nice.

Katie

We weren't quite sure what a worm hat was, right? So we made a few of them. This is the first one. It's a hat made of worms.

Zach Badger Davis

Okay.

Katie

And then option number two is a hat that you put on. And when you do that, you look maybe. Like maybe you're a worm. Right. And then the third one, and this is the best one, Charlie, is. Is a hat for your worm, for your teeny tiny little worm.

Andrew Livingston (Coach)

It's a teeny tiny.

Katie

Because you want him to be fancy. I've been out walking slow many miles

Zach Badger Davis

I've yet to go Never been one that's had to choose but every time I do I find I lose I guess I'm a loser stomping ground A welcome man for the loving crowd I wish that you knew.