Chance

All right, I've got a oddball bonus segment here.

John

I can't wait. Based on this, is this your prompt?

Havos

Yes.

John

Six words.

Chance

Yeah.

Havos

Excuse me.

Chance

So, not a frequent Redditor, but I go on from time to time, and one of the subjects that I see pop up on various subreddits are just stories from celebrities. Specifically, like the negative encounters people have with celebrities, I always find them to be interesting and funny. So I've highlighted a handful of my favorite nasty celebrity encounters.

John

Oh, okay. I like this. I like that it's not trivia, because I don't need to use my brain.

Chance

No trivia.

John

I've been giving you soothing stories and you keep being like, hey, do you want to think? Yeah.

Chance

No, there's no thinking.

John

Good.

Chance

Hopefully some laughing.

John

Oh, wait, my phone sent me an affirmation. Hold on. Take a moment to think about this. Internally, I am grateful for the inner strength that has gotten me this far in life.

Chance

That's a good one.

Havos

Great.

John

Thanks, phone. I am healed. Your turn.

Chance

Okay, so the prompt is, who's the nastiest celebrity that you've met in real life? I should not have led with this one, because this one made me laugh the hardest out of all of them. But the quote is, my mom's sister and I were biking north on the strand one morning, and we ended up passing Gary Busey. Do you guys know Gary Busey? Yeah, a crazy looking. Like, I think he got in an accident when he. I don't know if this is an adult, but, like, his teeth are kind of mangly.

John

I know faces and I know names, but I don't know them together.

Havos

That's an extreme photo.

Chance

Well, not in his later life, because, like, in the movie Entourage, he just straight up plays an insane person.

John

Is that different from the show Entourage?

Chance

The show he's in, He's a cameo. He's only in a couple episodes.

John

Garrett loves that show, but I think the guys are such dickheads. He's got a face that looks familiar.

Chance

Yeah, I'd say his most normal character is rookie of the Year. He actually kind of plays dead. You can ask the Grave Digger about that, if that's accurate. No, no, I'm gonna pass the. No, I'm good.

John

Two episodes left in the studio. Smell my moss. Hold on, let me get you a nice fresh one.

Chance

Jesus Christ.

John

Okay, ready? It's going to smell really good. Yeah, but mine smells good. I don't know. Sometimes mine smells good. Give me. You go. You got it, didn't you? You got it, didn't you? Did you smell it? Yeah. You didn't smell like anything. Like a man that wears.

Chance

Try it again.

John

Got nothing. You smell like nothing to me. You get. It's like a little. It's a little sharp. It's like a sharp.

Chance

Not a little. That is cheese. Yeah, straight up cheese.

Havos

I.

John

Well, I didn't shower today.

Havos

Just one day.

John

Or put on deodorant.

Chance

I didn't deodorant either, but at the shower.

John

Well, you're welcome. See, you're gonna miss this. Aren't you gonna miss this? Tell me.

Chance

Not that specific moment.

John

This is the sec. One more time. This is a segment, so I'm gonna really fuck around for a bit. But one more time after this and you'll never see me in this room consistently again.

Chance

That's your fault.

John

Yeah, but aren't you sad?

Chance

I am sad.

John

Don't you just want to smell my armpits because of it?

Havos

No.

Chance

Those things are not equated here whatsoever.

John

You won't miss me.

Chance

Da da da. We ended up passing Gary Busey. We were so surprised, we started giggling. He heard us and screamed back over his shoulder, shut up, bitches. Which of course just made us laugh harder. Could you imagine if Gary Busey yelled at you?

John

I don't know if that's nasty. That's funny.

Chance

It is very funny.

Havos

I was thinking like dirty when you said nasty.

Chance

Yeah, no, nasty isn't like mean.

Havos

Oh, okay.

John

Yeah. Like when they think they're too cool for school. Yeah,

Chance

that was my favorite. But we got some others. I work for a lot of famous people at their residences. The one that stood out the most. This name popped up a lot in my research. Of this, the one that stood out the most was JLo. I've worked for people who could buy her entire life 10 times over that were more genuine and a pleasure to work for. And then there's a comment underneath that one. She's actually the reason I'm alive. My parents met doing work for her and bonded over their mutual hatred of her.

John

Wow,

Chance

This one is worked. I'll start reading the names. This is from Viking Rodeo 9. Worked at a high end hotel for a few years, ten plus years ago. Met a ton of famous people from different industries. Most of them are surprisingly nice. Sterling K. Brown, Hillary Duff, Steve Carell, eva Longoria, Matt LeBlanc and Michael Pena. Stood out as being super cool and kind. The absolute worst Tiger Woods. The guy might be the most condescending prick I've ever met in my life. I'm not even a golf fan. But that drunk ass can eat my fuck.

John

I'm jealous. They saw Hilary Duff. I'm going to see her in Charlotte when she does her concert thing.

Chance

Oh yeah, she's coming to Red Rocks.

John

I think that's B. Bc. No, that's A. No, that's A.

Chance

AD Shit.

John

No, that doesn't work. BC is before Tron's. So that's. We use the term BC when we talked. Like when me and Garrett talk or me and Garrett's friends because they're all from like college. Anytime we talk about something, that's before when I was in the relationship with him, we call it BC So it's before trance, Right?

Chance

Of course.

John

But AD doesn't work.

Chance

AC Anywho, acbc.

John

I got my first pair of Crocs. They are the ugliest fucking wedges, but

Chance

they are this like you're soon to be mom life.

John

No, I'm trying to dress like the little Lizzie McGuire emoticon girl that like would pop in like the little bubbles with like 2D drawing.

Chance

You're talking.

John

I'm gonna look great. Anyway, I'm jealous.

Havos

I know what you're talking about.

John

Thank you. We get each other's references. See, we knew. It's Middy.

Chance

This is from Dr. Sortooth. Who was the rudest famous person you met? Katherine Heigl. Tried to get me fired for sending her to the wrong floor when the information she gave me was incorrect. Luckily my manager just laughed in her face. She called corporate and tried to get him fired too.

John

Shut up.

Chance

We should say that this is all hearsay.

John

Alleged.

Chance

Yeah, this is. These are not.

John

We are not doctors or lawyers or cpa. We have actually no qualifications. I went to school for graphic designers. So if you have a question that pertains to that, I could give you a semi educated but out of practice answer. Other than that, not qualified.

Chance

Yeah, is all unverified, but still funny. What was your worst experience? Meeting a celebrity. This is from Bill Bapa. I sat beside a news anchor for my city on a cross country flight. I don't remember his name, but I recognize him from the news. I didn't say anything to him, but the entire flight he complained about everything. Why the fuck am I stuck back here? He was asking someone he was flying with who was on the other aisle seat about three rows up. They had a conversation. It was wonderful. Can you move me up to first slash business class? Why not? Don't you know who I am? Can't you ask one of them to move? Hey, why is that guy Getting a meal and I have to pay. What do you mean he prepaid? Hey, why didn't you buy me a fucking sandwich? What good are you?

John

I kind of love this guy. Why the fuck am I here? You picked your seat. Yeah.

Chance

Also, just the hubris of a local news person is very funny.

Havos

Oh, it's a local. It's not even like a national.

Chance

No, Nope, those are all the ones I had flagged for this.

John

Okay, well, I've got two. Oh, no, that's not the sound I want. Hold on, let me try to figure out how to make this sound. Give me your sound.

Chance

I do have a show you. I do have an in person one that I can vouch is a real story.

John

Yeah, tell me an in person one.

Chance

So I'm from Woodstock, Illinois, and the movie Groundhog Day was famously filmed in Woodstock, Illinois, my hometown. And Bill Murray was a very like out and about. Like he would be at the restaurants.

Havos

He was.

Chance

He did not hide. And we were out at a restaurant one night and he was sitting across the bar and everyone's starstruck. And my family talks me into go saying hi. I've got to be. Got to wait year to Groundhog Day come out.

John

I thought Bill Murray lived in New Jersey.

Chance

He's filming Groundhog Day.

Havos

Yeah, he's filming. Yeah.

John

Well, the reason I know that is because my co worker at a bar I worked at in Nyack, New York, lived in Jersey in the same cul de sac as Bill Murray, and lived across the street from his house. And he had me drive him home one night and he had me stop in front of Bill Murray's house to show me that it was his neighbor. So a totally random kind of alignment where I'm sitting here listening to this being like. But I thought Bill Murray lived in Jersey. As someone who knows specifically which house this is.

Chance

While filming Groundhog Day, he was in Woodstock, Illinois, but so it came out in 93, probably filmed in 92 or 91. So I'm 6 or 7 and I asked him for an autograph on a cocktail nap. And he just starts signing. He goes, didn't your mother teach you how to say please? And that was it. That's so funny, knowing who Bill Murray is. I think that is funny. Like he's not. I don't know if he's being an asshole. I think he's being Bill Murray.

John

I bet you remember to say please after that.

Chance

Well, I was upset by it. I went back and ripped up the napkin.

John

Okay. But I bet you remember to say please. After that.

Chance

I mean I'm a polite person. I don't think Bill Murray taught me manners. But at the age probably, yeah.

John

So at 6 you think that you were so polite that Bill Murray couldn't teach you a nervous six.

Chance

Yeah, Bill Murray's not teaching be.

John

I bet you didn't go in nervous. I bet you went in looking like a cocky little six year old.

Chance

Do you know what a six year old is?

John

A six year old, it's you as

Chance

a six year old is a kindergartner. First grader.

John

You would have gone in kicking sand. Any who. I don't know, I. I have some Robin Williams. An absolute delight. My dad.

Chance

I want the nasties.

John

My dad was a video engineer, so I've got.

Chance

We've talked about this. I went through the nasties.

John

Yeah, he was nice. Nasties. Okay, Kesha. So my dad worked on TRL for a bit and Kesha was doing one of their live shows and she had just come out with. What's the name of the song? Wake up in the morning with a bottle of Jack Brush my, brush my teeth. Wake up in the morning Feeling like

Chance

you're on her side here.

John

Oh my God.

Chance

I know, I know. It's a popular song.

John

People are screaming into their microphones.

Chance

Consumer.

Havos

I don't.

John

Oh my God. Hold on. Wake up in the morning feeling like P. Diddy. That's no longer good. Tick tock on the clock. Anyway, so she was going to be on trl. She was the performer. Why are you looking at. You're making eye contact like you're laughing at me, not with me.

Havos

What? Just because. I don't know what. I don't know what it.

John

Don't forget I know you. Anyways, we're at trl.

Chance

She calls me the six year old and she's having a meltdown because I'm calling you.

John

What I think of you to your face. You're making eyes with him. Okay, tell me what you're thinking.

Chance

I think you're a maniac, but go on.

John

I do too. Anyway, so they had her lyrics and they had them printed out and the people that like the crew were not really thrilled because she had a lot of fucking requests for coming there. And they were saying that she had more requests than like Beyonce. Like, she had more requests than like

Chance

a term in the green room where you're asking for specific.

John

I don't know. But she was brand new. Like TikTok was like. Like she had just dropped like a one hit and like, do we know if she'll Be a wonder or not, I don't know. But she came with all these demands and they were like this, who, who does this person think she is?

Chance

Yeah.

John

Then I'm in the back room with them because, you know, he works in the back room. And they're all sitting there and they had her lyrics printed out and they were reading them and like something about grown men, like 56 year old men reading. Wake up in the morning feeling like P. Diddy, brush my teeth with a bottle of Jack. And like a straight voice like that just doesn't sound good. And I'm sitting there, I'm like, yeah, these lyrics do suck. And they're all laughing at how much the lyrics suck.

Chance

Why are they reading the lyrics? Just for funsies.

John

Just because they're like, who is this girl that we're shooting today? They're waiting for the show to start. These are like the guys in the back, like camera room. Yeah. Anyway, so then I go to the bathroom because I'm like, okay. I'm also waiting for the show to start. Kesha comes in the bathroom to pee, peeing in the stall next to me comes out, we're washing our hands next to each other. I didn't say a fucking word to her because I was like, all I know about you so far is that you have a lot of requests and, and that these men that I trust because they're friends with my dad have made fun of your lyrics. So that was, I guess that would fall under nasty. That wasn't the story I was going to go with, nor do I think it's that good that you demanded.

Chance

Which one were you going to go with?

John

I was going to show you a video of me and Martha Stewart. Have you seen that? Have you seen it?

Chance

Classic Chan's hijacking.

John

What do you mean? You just asked me what I was going to go with.

Chance

Well, I thought we were on the

John

subject of nasty of celebrity encounters.

Chance

No, it was not the subject.

John

Nasty celebrity encounters. Okay, fine. Martha likes her coloring on her TV shots to be a certain way. And if the cameras don't look right or if one coloring on one camera doesn't match another, she could be a real fucking bitch about it.

Chance

That's what we're looking for.

John

Okay, great. Actually, I'm not giving you info.

Chance

Okay, guys, anything else you want to add?

John

No. It's your segment.

Chance

It was.

John

I didn't hijack this. Don't make me feel weird for talking on my second to last day in studio. I'm going to talk much as I Want.

Chance

Okay. To the regular segments. That was normal. I'd say normal.

John

I interacted with your segment

Havos

and I just listened.

Chance

Chance, we're having fun here. We're going to do the classic thing where we are having fun.

John

We are having fun.

Chance

Not having fun.

John

We are having fun. Wait, why?

Chance

Because this was picked up recently published via the PCTA article.

John

But this isn't on my Czech propaganda.

Chance

We're above that. Bill Jensen, whose name.

John

Oh, oh, I remember when you sent this. No, I didn't. Oh yeah.

Chance

For those who listened through to the end of the episode, Bill Johnson's name is familiar because he's one of our longtime Bob Peoples award winners. Yep. So you probably know where I'm going with this. But sad news is take a moment to honor Bill Jensen, a longtime Patreon supporter of BACKPACKER radio who passed away recently from a heart attack while hiking on the CDT in New Mexico.

John

That's so sweet.

Havos

I heard about this.

John

Bill Jensen and Brad from 13 Adventures. Brad and Blair from 13 Adventures. That's the clip when they're together. That's really sad. I remember you sent that article and we were wondering if it was the same one.

Chance

I reached out to the pcta, they confirmed.

Havos

Yeah.

Chance

It turns out he's also a trek blogger. He blogged under a different name so I didn't connect the dots until later. But just some background on Bill. He thru Hiked the PCT in 1977 at age 19. Completed the at Colorado Trail, Tahoe Rim Trail and a near 4000 mile Transamerica bike tour. And yeah, just a classic adventurer. He was also a PCTA Legacy society member. A big time trail angel. He's a track blogger for us. And from every account that I've seen, everyone love Bill.

John

I have a proposition for a new rule we follow.

Chance

Okay.

John

Which is really good for me to propose as I'm on my way out. But I think we honorably leave him in the. I guess they're Bob Peoples now. The Bob Peoples mentions. The super big thank yous.

Havos

Yeah, sure.

John

Just forever.

Havos

Okay.

John

I think if you pass while being one, it's in like a tribute. How do you. What's the word for in perpetuity?

Chance

Memorialize.

John

Yeah. Let's just keep saying the guy's name.

Chance

Yeah.

John

Because that's so sad.

Chance

Yeah. But yeah, hard to go out to

Havos

Bill's friends, family, loved ones. That sucks.

Chance

Okay. Trek propaganda. This one is from the Pegleglobal. After 22,000 miles of thru hiking, this is one of the biggest mistakes I see. Beginners make obviously very clickbaity title so I'm going to be light on the details in terms of summarizing this. But Madison argues that the biggest mistake she sees with other hikers has to do with how they plan for their thru hikes. Does that mean too much planning? Too little planning? You're going to have to go find the article and find out. But Madison knows what the fuck she's talking about.

Havos

So go check it out.

Chance

And this next one I don't think will be relevant to anyone by the time this comes out.

Havos

So I will skip it. Question of the day this one give.

John

This one grinds my gears. I have never had to think about this before because this is one of those things where like things in life you think are second nature. People breathe in and they breathe out. Right. We could just assume everyone does that. Yeah, I think this is falls in that line.

Chance

I have a good corollary to what you're about to say. I don't want to preempt your.

John

You can disagree but in my brain.

Chance

Yeah.

John

These are involuntary actions that only make sense one way. Right. Like you don't sit on the toilet facing the seat and pee with your doodle hanging in the water. Right.

Chance

There's that doodle again.

John

Yeah. See and here's a context example of where it sounds very non threatening.

Havos

Yeah.

Chance

No.

John

Do you don't pee facing the wall, Right?

Chance

It's the one with the doodles.

John

Well you do pee facing the wall when you're standing. But I'm saying you don't sit facing the wall.

Chance

Correct. I sit the correct way.

John

Okay. So that's the mindset I'm coming into this with.

Chance

Yeah.

John

That is how bonkers I think this is.

Chance

Okay.

John

Question of the day. And I didn't even think this was a question because I didn't think that anyone would not have the same answer on this. And now I'm learning that other people don't. And I hate to draw it out. I'm not doing it to be that person. But the fact that anyone doesn't do this the same way I do is just. I just need people to understand. It's not something I have ever considered.

Chance

Yeah.

John

I've never considered that there is a different way to do this. Do people face the shower head when they shower? My answer is an incredible no. I am turned away from it. That's the way you're supposed to. Like if you're facing a mirror. If you want to look in a mirror, you face the the mirror. If you want to take a Shower. You get in the shower and you face. Not the shower head and because then the water hits the back of your head and it's on your scalp and it rolls down and you wash the body and like you turn around, you can't breathe. There's. It doesn't make sense.

Chance

So when I. Well, first of all, I do face a shower. Secondly, that's psychotic.

John

So that's the problem. That's the problem is once I saw this, I sent this and I was like, hey, question of the day. And then from the, from the, the gal group, the girls of the pod, they all started being like, oh, my husband says he faces it. And I was like, no way. And then I asked my husband, he's like, I face it. And I think this might be a boy thing.

Chance

It's possible. I.

Havos

Shorter hair thing.

Chance

That's. I thought you, I thought everyone faced the shower when like they're doing their non shampoo activities. But when you're not shampooing, you're also not facing the showerhead.

John

You ever take a water gun and shoot yourself in the face with it?

Havos

Yes.

Chance

First of all.

Havos

You haven't? No, I think it's a boy thing.

John

Multiple times, every time?

Havos

Not every time.

John

That's what, that's what facing the shower head would feel like to me.

Chance

Well, it depends on the shower pressure. Sometimes it's hitting my chest instead of my face.

John

So tall you, you rise above the stream.

Chance

You can adjust the shower head. You can point it straight down if you want to.

John

Yeah. But then you're cold.

Chance

Well, that's. I think that's part of the reason why I like to face the shower head is it hits like directly at my heart.

John

Do you face the shower head and aim it to not even hit you in the head?

Chance

When I'm rinsing my hair, I've obviously rinsed my face and my head. Yeah. But I'm still looking at the shower head. Yeah.

John

Every time you shower, you move it to adjust it to whether you're washing your face or your bod.

Chance

I have never actually thought about it. I probably do. Yeah. I'm sure. I'm adjusting the shower head all the time. If the shower. I'm. I should also preface, I've got a small shower, so I can't. If the shower is pointing in the middle, I can't stand far enough back to avoid the waters.

John

See, I'm of the mindset where it's like my car side view mirrors where I'm like, when I adjust these to be right for my Height. Don't fucking touch them. I've. I've never considered taking a shower and adjusting the head. Not once, but maybe even multiple times per. Per session.

Chance

My shower is probably about two thirds of the size of this table. Maybe smaller. It's tiny. It's a tiny shower.

John

So you don't have a big house.

Chance

The house is adequately sized.

John

The bathroom has no window. I'm telling you, my shower is probably just the same size.

Chance

Yeah. And you don't adjust the shower head. That's crazier to me.

John

I can't even reach it.

Havos

Well, that's. Well, that's the difference.

Chance

Yeah.

John

Okay, five, eight.

Havos

But no, I adjust it so it's.

John

But you face it, too.

Havos

I face it, but then when I need to do the head thing you, like, you duck into it. Or maybe you like.

John

So you guys aren't getting blasted in the face, you're adjusting it to hit you in the chest.

Chance

I'll get blasted in the face all the time. Clip it.

John

Did you say it so it could be clipped, or did you mean it

Chance

in the middle of it? I knew what it was going to come out as, and I kept saying

John

you didn't mean it.

Chance

I still mean it. I get blasted in the face.

John

No, genuinely, Would you stand in front of a shower head and let it just fucking spray you in the face? Yeah, because I. I don't face the shower, and I have.

Chance

Maybe you're the cat.

John

Well, listen, this is, like I said, I think. I think if, like, a psychiatrist were to dig into it, it might be a sensory issue. But I don't like water in my face. And so I have a. I have a dry washcloth over the shower door. And when I shower, when it's time to get my hair wet, the washcloth goes over my face and I cup it around my forehead so that it stops, like, the water from flowing down my face. Like, everything's still wet and warm and. But it's like a sauna under there. And then when I'm done getting my hair wet, I come out and I move my washcloth.

Chance

What do you do when you. Because you put makeup on, how do you rinse the makeup?

John

With the washcloth?

Chance

Okay, I just don't. Wet washcloth is still.

John

Right. But it's controlled. It's controlled wetness. Streaming water down my face. I really don't like it. I use makeup wipes, like makeup remover wipes. And then when I'm in the shower, I'll use, like, my little rice wash and my little face moisturizer and my scrub and all those things.

Chance

Like when you wash your face at night, you're not just like splashing water?

John

No, I'm not. No. I thought the neutral Gina commercials were just like a gross over exaggeration.

Chance

Even my wife does that.

Havos

So I think she does it.

Chance

I can't speak for, I don't know her shower facing.

John

I mean, she gets the whole bathroom wet with water because she's acting like a bird in a bird bath Every time she walks. Washes her face.

Chance

No, she goes up to the sink and splashes. She leans over the sink.

John

No fucking way. Yeah, she does that.

Chance

I think most normal people do that, Chauncey.

John

No, no, no. Yeah, I would. I would rather eat rocks than splash water in my own face.

Chance

You are a cat. You are certified.

John

What I'll do is I'll get my. I'll do my washcloth and I'll get my hair wet. I'll do this with the washcloth, I'll get my hair wet. I'll put the shampoo in. I'll come out of the water to put the shampoo in. So I put my washcloth down, I put my washcloth back on, I go back, and then I wash the shampoo out with my washcloth on. And then my face is already kind of damp because I've got the steam of the washcloth and the shower vibe going. So then I'll come back out, I'll put on my face wash, and then I'll go back in with my washcloth. And then this time instead of just holding it at the forehead, I'll kind of push down and go like that a little bit.

Chance

Yeah, that's totally the normal way that everyone does it.

Havos

I wash my face just in the shower.

Chance

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I'm saying, like, sometimes if I shower in the morning and then like I have a active day, I'm just gonna go to the sink to wash my face.

John

Here's the thing. I feel like I've discredited myself a bit by giving so much info. I should backtrack and say I am not the only one that will not face the shower when I shower. And it is not just because the washcloth thing or whatever sensory issues are happening. A million other people in this, like, Reddit topic or wherever I found it were like, that's insane. I would never face the shower.

Havos

While I was.

Chance

My assumption reading this question was talking specifically about, like, rinsing your hair.

John

Fuck no. Just in general. Would I. Would you ever look? Do you look the sun in the eyes? No.

Chance

Yeah, because getting water in your face and having UVs burn your retinas is the same thing.

John

What temperature do you keep your water at?

Chance

The same temperature that's hitting the rest of my body. I don't know why?

John

Hot as fuck. Hot as that.

Chance

Like shooting you close your eyes.

John

Do you not have good water pressure? Water pressure. Good water pressure. Just pounding at your eyeballs at hot temperature is the same. Yeah, but where you compared it to looking at the sun. So if I compared to looking at the sun, you said it was less bad.

Chance

Yeah, it's definitely less bad.

John

Looking at the sun's less bad.

Chance

No, facing the shower is definitely less bad.

John

Maybe the sun doesn't hit you with pressure.

Chance

It will make you go blind.

John

One could argue pressurized water impact to your eyeballs continuously could also maybe eventually lead to that.

Chance

I want that sentence clipped. Listen, I hear you.

John

The only thing. The only thing that I'm really upset about with this is that I won't be here to get the mailbags where people write in. They're like, oh, Chance, you were so smart and beautiful and right. And that answer. And you should know that. And I'm not going to hear it because I won't be here to read it.

Chance

Yeah, well, you'll still see the comments. There's going to be people that agree with you. The people that agreed with you about granola not being cereal, they just like to. They agree with you. That's what they do.

John

That's common sense.

Chance

Yeah.

Havos

No, you said granola is not cereal.

John

No, it's not cereal. It's a granola.

Havos

He had milk.

John

Why? If you add milk to a bowl of Oreos, is it cereal?

Havos

They make that.

John

No, I know. I'm not talking about Oreos. I'm talking about if you add milk to a bowl of Oreos, is that cereal?

Havos

Yes. Within the realm in my head.

John

And you.

Chance

I'd say the rebuttal is that it's in the cereal aisle. And the definition calls it a cereal. But, I mean, who cements these words? What difference does it make? It doesn't matter.

John

It matters to me because you wouldn't call guacamole a mashed potato.

Chance

It's every week. It's every week.

John

I don't. It's not. I asked Garrett if he thought. I asked Garrett if he thought guacamole was just an avocado mashed potato, and he said, no, it's not. What do you mean? It's an avocado mashed like a potato.

Havos

I Used to work at Chili's and we used to do a table side guac which was super annoying. And we had like seven different things we had to add into it.

Chance

Yeah, yeah.

Havos

It's not just mashed.

Chance

You gotta get the cilantro, the onion.

John

You don't just mash and potato. You put some garlic in it, some butter, salt, some pepper. There are equal ingredients in both. So are all chives.

Chance

So are all mashed foods just mashed potatoes?

John

That's what I was asking. That's why I asked if a hot dog was a taco. That's what I'm trying to figure out.

Havos

It's closer to a taco than it is a sandwich.

John

That's what I was saying.

Chance

Yeah. So. Yeah. No, you. So I'm actually, I'm curious.

John

I deal with this every week. This. On my second eve of leaving.

Chance

It was funny that you.

John

Is this where you snap?

Chance

You jumped from proving yours granola not being cereal. Right. By saying that guacamole is in fact just mashed potatoes. Ipso facto.

Havos

I can see it.

John

I don't know. Do you think you're going to laugh this much when I'm gone? I don't think you're going to laugh this much when I'm gone.

Chance

The LS will definitely take a hit for sure. Yeah. Yeah. It might make sense at times, but less laws. No. We're going to miss you, John.

John

I wonder if he'll ever text me.

Chance

I hardly text my friends, so.

John

So that's a no.

Chance

We'll see. We'll see.

John

Triple crown up.

Chance

Before we move on from this one, I am really intrigued to see people's comments because maybe you are.

John

I am right.

Chance

It's not about right or wrong. I'd say in some. What do you say after? You are like some significant minority I think would be the best grouping I could give it because I. I do imagine there's a lot of people that face away from the shower head when they're rinsing their.

John

You cannot think more people face the shower head than away.

Havos

I'm willing to bet on that.

John

Shut up. How much?

Havos

50 bucks.

John

How do we measure this?

Havos

Should we take a poll?

Chance

That's a great question.

John

Oh, before we air it, can we. How do we get on a channel that's not biased Call James.

Chance

I mean, we could just put it on Backpacker Radio's Instagram, but let someone impartial do the question framing.

John

Because you're gonna say do you face the shower head or away from the shower head when you shower and then face it and not face it are gonna be the only two options.

Havos

So you're not even gonna do like a mix? Because I usually do a mix but most of it is facing.

John

No, I think that would gray it up because who would win out of the two of us for a minute.

Havos

That's true.

Chance

You know, how about adding like for a majority of the shower.

John

Okay, let. I'm gonna put your face as the background.

Chance

No, because we need the pole.

John

Okay, great. And then the pole. The pole is actually. Is a sticker that goes on top of it. Pull. What do you. You face the shower head or away from the the shower. It's too long. Select all backspace. Hold on. Regular text. Do you face the shower head or away from the shower when you Away from the shower head when you take a shower? Parentheses for the majority parentheses. And then I'll put a background so it's easy to read. And I'll make the text smaller and I will hit post. What's our time constraint? Would you want to end this?

Chance

Just let her in the full 24 hours.

John

Okay. Face shower head. Don't face shower head.

Chance

All right, I'll start to introduce the subject while finishes the poster.

John

You guys are so freaking wrong.

Havos

Watch it be like 95%.

John

That's gonna be where I like try to. That's where I joined the Mars mission. I'm like, you know what a one way trip sounds good. Take me out of here.

Chance

Yeah, I've thought about that triple. Triple crown of things you can easily live without but nonetheless should be free for everyone. Apparently this was a suggestion from another bot people's award winner, Hayley Buckingham palace. And her suggestion was really good ambient noise sounds for sleeping. Should be free on every phone and all the things.

John

Okay, I want to put a. I want to put an asterisks on this one because I don't want us to seem like a holes but I don't want us to seem like we also haven't thought or that we lack thought. We're. We're doing this in a very fun, like a fun way and not like we're not talking about drinking. Drinking water for everyone.

Havos

Yeah.

John

Or I mean peace.

Chance

Even if there's.

John

These are all things that you could easily leave without but should be free for everyone. Well, I don't know if you could. I think without them.

Chance

Yeah. I was gonna say without clean drinking water, you're not easily living without.

John

Right. But I'm. All I'm saying is we're not like, we're not Skipping the obvious because we have no souls. We're skipping the obvious because that would make a terrible segment and be really depressing. So bear with us. We know that there are things that could be great here. We're going to go with more chachy ones. Yeah.

Chance

I did have the passing thought of, like, education and, like, technically you can survive. You don't need education to have a heartbeat. But as a thriving society, it's not a good way to live.

John

It was a thought of mine that led me to that thought because I had a thought. Then it was like, oh, if you think about this one step further. Oh, okay, wait, we're there. Oh, that would probably be the better answer. Now I'm an asshole, because I didn't pick that.

Chance

So got to give the education, health care.

John

Those are things that we would love everyone to have them and have. You know, if I were in power, they would.

Chance

Yeah.

John

And I would also, like, very quickly get taken out of power because I don't think I would do well with the responsibility.

Chance

I could see you abusing power.

John

I wouldn't abuse it. Abusing. I think the word abusing comes with a knowledge of.

Chance

Well, I could see you, like, mandating time limits and toilets for guys. Something like that.

John

Oh, my God. That was the funniest Instagram we posted. I checked the comments for a quick second and immediately left because everyone was like, oh, she's horrible.

Chance

If that was the one.

John

If you guys are not in healthy relationships with your marital partner where you can do weird shit like that because it's fudgeing funny, then like, I'm sorry. I don't know. I'm not like, there's no way I'm going to defend that. But whoever gets upset about that. I just. I looked at the comments for a second and I laughed and I was like, you guys don't know what having fun means. Yeah, is a goof. No, but when you say fuck. What was the word you just used? What was the word you just used?

Chance

Which one? I don't know. What was the context? Okay.

John

Literally exactly what you just said. You said something. And I was going to say that. That. That.

Chance

Abusing your power.

John

Yes, abusing. When you're abusing power, you know of the power you have and then you take advantage of it. I'm saying people don't know the power, so they can't abuse it because they don't know it. Right.

Chance

Let's go to the triple crown. You want to start?

John

Sure. Mine is worm towels, for example. I went through Here we Go Clip this for an Instagram. I went through a phase of gift giving with Garrett where I got him Christmas gifts each year that were also beneficial to me. Sue me. He was my boyfriend at the time. I didn't know if it would last. I just wanted a nice life. And so one year, I got him a towel warmer. And this is the guy that had a very nice bath.

Chance

It'd be funny if you got him, like, a dildo or something.

John

Actually, funny story about that. I'll get to that next. Not about Garrett, but. So I got him a towel warmer because he had a really nice bathtub. And when he would go out with, like, boys, like, the boys nights or whatever, my apartment sucked. So I'd be like, oh, do you want me to drive you guys there? Would you like me to pick you up after? And you'd be like, really? You're in a dds? Both ways. I'm like, yeah, I'll just wait at your house while you're there and, like, sit in the bathtub. Yeah, there you go. And I'd sit there until he was done. Towel warmer. Incredible. Incredible. Coming out of the top of. Coming out of the shower to have a warm towel to wrap around you, and then you feel like a little warm burrito that just came out of the oven. Everyone should be able to experience that feeling. Yeah, everyone.

Chance

That's a good one.

John

And if you currently are not experiencing that feeling, if. Ask whoever gets you gifts for one. If you can't get one for yourself, and if that is also out of

Havos

means,

John

that's why I put it as mine. I really think you should be able to have one. I'm sorry. Yeah, warm towels are really good.

Chance

Do you want to pull out three? The premise. The premise here is it's Snake Draft. So Tron goes. You go. I go twice. You go again. Tronce goes. We do that for three. So if you've got something that you think is, like, this is great, it's not essential to life, but everyone should have this. Feel free.

Havos

Liquid flavoring.

John

Ooh.

Chance

Element shout out.

Havos

Element shout out to Element.

Chance

Fuck yeah.

Havos

Especially when it's hot out.

John

Yeah.

Chance

Well, if you're a guest on backpack radio, you do get it for free.

Havos

So we just need to cycle.

John

You don't even know how much.

Chance

You just get to cycle all 7 billion of you through here. And we'll get you nice and hydrated.

John

All 7 billion people that are on BACKPACKER radio.

Chance

No, no.

John

Earth Zach's going to be running the show past the grave.

Chance

It'll Be like, Lily. Nevermind, nothing. There'll be a couple people that get that.

John

Lily.

Havos

Who is that her name?

Chance

Never mind. Triple crown of things. I'm going to go with. I so rarely do this nowadays, but I fucking love it. And I feel like everyone should just one annual massage. Nothing fucking turns your day around like a massage. Like a good 60 minute full body massage. You just come out of that feeling like the stress of the world has left my body. And everyone should get one tax subsidized to all the wonderful masseuses out there. Yeah, that'd be a good thing for society.

John

Yes. And if you really are a massage fan and you are either not yet married and have a honeymoon coming up or a person that goes on vacation, consider Thailand, because the massages are so cheap. And if you go during the monsoon season, a lot of the places even not during it, but a lot of the places will do deals where you book a room and you get a free two hour massage with it. We had a massage at every place we went. It was fantastic. I love.

Chance

Massages are so good.

John

Yeah. Garrett's got. We've been trying to tone down our subscriptions.

Chance

Yeah.

John

I'm like that commercial for Rocket Money where I'm like, do you know how many subscriptions you have? Yeah. And Garrett's like five. And I'm like, actually that's wrong. So all the checking poop people can hate me for this too. But I was like, listen, we should get subscriptions under X dollar amount. I think that would be like what I would consider reasonable. I don't know. No, but he's got a hand in stone subscription, which is a massage place. And so they give him credits every month and every month he can go get a massage and he does. And like he gets accoutrements.

Chance

Yeah.

John

And it's because he plays hockey and he's a goalie and he gets puck shot out of him like all the time.

Chance

Does that work across the.

John

He plays like twice a week.

Chance

Will that work in North Carolina?

John

I was really hoping we could cancel the subscription before we went, but it. I did google it without telling him. It does look like they have one in Raleigh, so I think we'll end up keeping it. And I. It's. It's good for him because he plays hockey again twice a week and he's not a spring chicken and so those hips hurt. But he's younger than you. Yeah, but I don't, I don't play hockey.

Chance

What season of chicken are you?

John

I'm a chicken that has not played hockey. My hips are fine.

Chance

That isn't. Spring chicken's referring to someone's age.

John

Okay, well, he's a. He's a caged. He's a ca. He's not free range. I don't know, what do you say?

Chance

Pasture raised. Yeah, okay, that's fine.

John

Anyway, so he's got a. He's got a massage subscription.

Chance

Smart man.

John

But he can only transfer me a massage once every six months.

Chance

That's what he says.

John

No, that's what they say. He's tried to do it more and they won't let him. I've gotten. I know. I've been at the counter and they've been like, hey, you have to pay this amount.

Chance

He paid them to say that.

John

Yeah. Okay. But yeah, so massages. I agree. I wholeheartedly agree. Everyone should get one. Treat yourself. Self care is important.

Chance

My next one is YouTube Premium. I have not seen an ad on YouTube in a year and a half. And I would say of all of the subscriptions I have, that might be the hardest one to get rid of. Just because, like, think of all the random clips that you pull up. I watch like podcasts and shit on YouTube. I watch a lot of things on YouTube. YouTube's probably my most streamed thing. But even without it, uh, we put. Especially when the kids were young, we used to put on like blues clues and just everything that strips out the ads on YouTube.

John

Can't you still find that stuff?

Havos

Can't.

John

Like, you can still find it on YouTube though, right? Without.

Chance

Yeah, but it's no ads.

John

Oh yeah.

Chance

No pre rolls, no mid rolls. And that's especially valuable when you've got kids because like, typically we try to put on something educational, not like too high stimulation. There ain't no filter for that. For the ads.

John

Yeah. You don't want the limu emu teaching your kids.

Chance

Yeah, that's all batshit crazy and like louder and fast paced and it just sucks. But even for adults, YouTube Premium is nice.

John

Well, the thing that's very funny about that is of the 8 million subscriptions we have.

Chance

Yeah.

John

Again, it's egregious. We have a lot and it's mostly not my fault.

Chance

Yes. We just said the same thing.

John

I have a tab on my. I keep a finance tracker. And every two weeks we have a finance meeting. We update all our numbers. Because I'm a psychopath. Yeah. And he wants me to track it. And I'm like, if you're going to stop checking your bank account in your mail when we get married, we need to do these two big check ins because if I fudgeing die, you need to know what's going on.

Chance

Yeah.

John

You know, so. Okay. Mind you guys, I might check if he poops, but I do a lot of good things.

Chance

You're checking more numbers than is number two.

John

I'm laughing just saying that. Anyway, I have a tab that I put subscriptions under and I went through and I tracked all of our subscriptions and I outlined them and I outlined how much it costed us on an annual basis. And it is disgusting.

Chance

Yucky.

John

And I went through and I highlighted it in orange and yellow. Orange being more severe, yellow being less severe. Like anything I thought we could maybe get rid of.

Chance

Yeah.

John

Oh, my God. Apparently we need every streaming service to live because one plays one type of hockey and one plays a different type of hockey and one has one type of Star wars and one has Survivor and it's a losing battle every time.

Chance

You know what you got to do is like I do this with HBO and Apple is like when something comes out that is amazing. Ted Lasso or whatever it might be, just wait for it to all come out, binge it in a month, and then cancel the subscription.

John

I think we just need friends to reciprocate because Garrett Share economy Happening. Garrett. Garrett. He's a very generous guy, but one of the first things I noticed when we got married was that he has all the subscriptions for the video streamings and then his friends all have his passwords. Yeah. I'm like, Garrett, don't you think, like, they could each have one streaming service and we could have their passwords too. So I don't know. Nonetheless, needless to say. Yeah.

Chance

Got another one.

Havos

My family does that.

Chance

Yeah. The sharing.

Havos

Yeah.

Chance

I mean, they can stop it if they wanted to. I think they realize it's.

John

You tell them it's travel mode. I had to text my mom last night for a code. It said it'll let me travel for 14 days. Every time it says that it doesn't follow through.

Chance

Yeah, yeah.

Havos

It does that for Netflix. Yeah, it works.

Chance

Probably some of them are more sophisticated than others, but. Yeah, yeah, they. For a long time they didn't do shit about it.

John

So. Yeah, I don't. I don't yet have YouTube plus, but premium.

Chance

Yeah.

John

If I can have it for free, I would love it.

Chance

Which is different than YouTube TV. That's like the streaming one. That's the, like the. The cable competitor.

John

Well, that's just confusing.

Chance

Yeah, I know.

Havos

It is confusing. What was the question?

John

Is it Your.

Chance

No. If you want to do triple crown of things, you can easily live without it. Nonetheless, should be free for everyone.

John

That was really fast.

Havos

Yeah, it was really fast. Yeah. Things you can live with, so. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Same question. I don't know why I'm thinking of Q tips.

Chance

Oh, yeah.

John

Okay.

Havos

I feel like that's also. That's how you know that, like, someone's like a OG Trail angel. It's like if they have Q tips.

Chance

Yeah. Is this. Are you talking for ears, or do you have other purposes?

Havos

I mean, ears generally, but it's also like. It's mainly. Yeah. It's just.

John

No, no. What are you guys saying? Where else do you put them?

Havos

I.

Chance

No.

John

You looked at him and then you said no. No. Nothing else.

Chance

I don't know. That's primarily what I use it for, but I feel like with a backpacking context, people could have, like, MacGyver ish ways with it. I promise you, I'm not doing kinky

Havos

things to the Q10. I am also not doing it.

John

Yeah. It kind of seems like. It kind of seems like you're both doing kinky things and neither of you guys want me to know, but that you know each other's kinky shit.

Chance

I wonder what could even be going on in your head right now.

John

The mind can wander.

Havos

Yeah.

Chance

You're up.

John

Oh, okay. Great. My next one. Football.

Chance

Yeah.

John

You could easily leave without live without it.

Chance

Yeah.

John

Not everyone's got Red Zone or a football subscription or whatever.

Chance

Yeah.

John

But something about Sunday being football and just, like, the relaxing aspect of it. And also, it's so fun to watch. Everyone should be able to just watch football. You shouldn't have to have X streaming service or this or that. It shouldn't be get this or, like, we had to. We had to sign up for some service. I can't remember what it was to be able to stream one of the Bills games because we weren't in a place where we could use the Pirate Bay or whatever the, like, equivalent is these days. And so we got it. And I was like, great. And then we'll cancel it after, just like you said. And so then I followed up after the Bills got knocked out, and I was like, let's cancel it. No, it bills quarterly, and you have to wait till the season ends.

Chance

Yeah.

John

Which I guess is how they get you.

Chance

I've seen more places now, like, mandated annual subscription. I think this is.

John

And I don't even mean it just in terms of the streaming service. Why do we blackout games? For example, if the Giants and Jets are playing or the Giants and who cares Are playing. They'll block out the Bills because it's like, oh, a New York team's already playing and they're more pop. We do not have the same fan base. You. We are not competing. I'm not going to say, oh look, they won't play my Bills game. I'm just going to watch the Giants. No, I'm not going to watch them. I'm just not watch anything or. Or cry. Yeah. So I think everyone should just be able to just turn on the TV and get their football games. I think that should just be something

Chance

they give us a semi caveat there is that technically you can get like an antenna feed for free, which includes

John

CBS and black out games.

Havos

They do. You don't get every game, but you do.

Chance

You'll get.

John

But they black out games when someone else in your area SL division is playing in your area slash division. So when they block out the Bills games, it's not because there's something better on.

Chance

Yeah.

John

It's cuz someone's stupid's playing someone stupid and no one cares about it. But for some reason we have to black out the game that's happening closer to home. Yeah.

Chance

Technically you can get some football, but you don't get the.

John

You don't get. You don't get all of it. You can't. You can't get all of it.

Chance

No, I'm on board. I think that's a great one.

John

Give us football. Yeah. You want it to be an American pastime, Just let us have it. Yeah,

Chance

I think that one. I think it's baseball, but that's also behind a terrible paywall. But neither here nor there.

John

Baseball is not the only American pass. No, but because it's the stereotypical one. Yeah. Okay, next and last thing you can easily live without, but nonetheless should be free for everyone. A sense of humor. Oh, I think everyone should have one. And if you don't, I think that things are probably less happy for you.

Chance

Is there anyone in particular you'd like to call out right now?

John

No. Who?

Chance

Angry boner had 69 on Instagram.

John

I don't know. Oh no, I didn't stay long enough.

Chance

I wasn't even talking about. I don't know, it just. I feel like there was inspiration behind.

John

No, I just think some people don't have a sense of humor and I like. I think some people take things too seriously. And. And I'm. A lot of the times when I think too heavily into this question, I think about things that end up going towards like altruistic human rights things. And that's not the theme of this. It's got to be fun and whimsy. And so then I try to dial it back and I'm like, okay, what is the opposite of that thought that got kind of bleak. And it's like, oh, well, maybe we should just laugh at stuff. Yeah. And sometimes people don't laugh.

Chance

And it's the best medicine when someone doesn't. We don't even need help.

John

Say something. It's like, yeah, Yeah. I think a sense of humor, it's, it's, it's not free because it has to, I think, come as a genetic trait. I think, I think there are some people that don't have the ability to have a sense of humor because maybe they're too high strung or XYZ gets in the way. So I can't say that it is an inherent easy thing to do because for everyone it might not be, but I think everyone should have access to it because I think that it makes hard things lighter.

Chance

Would be cool if it was like a streaming Service.

John

Like paying 10.99 to be able to laugh at your woes or don't cry. Yeah. It's only a matter of time.

Chance

Last one.

Havos

I'm like way too like enthralled by all this. I'm not thinking of my own. Yeah.

Chance

Living in the moment. That's good. That's good. That's the way it should be.

Havos

What was the prompt against? Slowly.

John

Just something that's not free but you can't live without. Something that's not free but nonetheless. No. Something you can easily live without but nonetheless should be free for everyone. I jumped in to say it and then I said it wrong.

Havos

Free. I actually had one. It was then I started paying attention.

Chance

So that's why we have laptops in front of us. Because if we don't jot down our notes, they're gone for.

John

Yeah. You are actually at a disadvantage.

Chance

I can go if you want to think on this.

Havos

Okay. Please.

Chance

What was mine? I'm going to go with.

Havos

This is too similar to my first one.

Chance

This is a little bit generic, but I think a good one and important is just parks passes. I don't want state parks or national parks to be paid entry. And I understand the counterpoint that like they're super crowded as is. I just for public land I don't like.

John

Permits can be free.

Chance

It can be.

John

And money can be subsidized by the government.

Havos

Yeah.

John

So the price of the park passes could be covered by the government and the permits could be free.

Chance

Yeah.

John

You could still regulate foot traffic if it's too crowded without charging.

Chance

Yeah.

John

I don't know. Just saying.

Chance

Yeah. I think the counterpoint to all of this is that like technically it gets paid for in some cases capacity. But that's the point. It should be a group effort, shared effort. I think everyone should be able to get.

John

Okay, but the technically it gets paid for in some capacity camp. Technically a lot of shit gets paid for in some capacity. And if you look at all the things that are getting paid for in some capacity and the proportion at which they're getting paid in some capacity, maybe we could find a way to just let people go into parks.

Chance

Yeah.

John

In a reasonable quantity so that we don't overrun them with free permits. And maybe if we put money towards other things in other quantities, perhaps you could find a way to make that manageable without stifling other things. And I think if we could defund everything we did, we could probably figure that one out, but who knows. Oh, she's going to get spicy because she's about to leave.

Chance

Dropping bombs. We should have a sound effects were chance bombs.

Havos

I actually never really thought about that because natives get into places for free.

John

Yeah, but you got. But you've got your whole slew of other. That you get on.

Havos

I mean that's true. I mean I was very privileged.

John

Yeah.

Havos

Getting a good education and.

John

But I don't. I don't know. But you know, in general I'm saying.

Havos

No, no, I.

John

Not an easy Pakistan family.

Havos

I.

John

If that's the least we could do.

Havos

Yeah.

Chance

But yeah, we're in a deep karmic debt.

John

Right. Like.

Havos

But anyone planning on doing the pct if you're Native American, you don't technically need a permit.

John

Really. Yeah, it's just the PCT or any of the trails.

Havos

Well, I don't think. Do you need a permit for the AT or the cdt?

John

I guess that's true.

Havos

Yeah. You need a permit for the CDT for the Rocky.

John

But what about like trails that need permits like the JMT or the four Pass Loop in Aspen or like like any trail that needs a permit in the US do you not need the permit jmt?

Havos

I know for fact that you don't need one for if you're native about like Grand Canyon don't need one. I got them for free. Hell yeah.

John

Do you have like an ID that you show that shows that you're native like when they ask for your permit yeah.

Havos

So we have a cib. Certificate of Indian Blood.

John

You have it on you?

Havos

No, I have a. Well, I have.

Chance

I have to charge you for those elements.

Havos

I have it saved on my phone. But with Grand Canyon, they see enough natives that they're like, oh, yeah, you can just come on in.

John

I've just never heard of a cib.

Havos

Yeah, it's. Let's see. It's my download list.

John

We did kind of skip over that whole. That whole conversation we could have had around being native in America.

Chance

I would love to have it if you wanted to have it. I was attempting a little bit in the beginning, but I guess I could have asked it more directly.

Havos

Yeah. I mean, hold on somewhere. This is how I haven't had to present it in a while.

John

Yeah, that's okay. I still. I do want to see it, but I'll yada yada with Zach while you look, so I'll buy you some time. Hi. What'd you do over the weekend?

Chance

I don't want to make you multitask. Should we talk about the subject of, like, your experience as Navajo as it pertains to backpacking or just life in general?

Havos

Yeah, no, I was. Yeah, I was surprised that that did not come up.

John

I.

Havos

That was.

Chance

I could have pushed harder in the beginning. I just asked about, like, your upbringing.

John

I'll be fair. There was a part where you said that in the commercial, you being Navajo and that part of it and Alex Honnold's foundation giving money to the Navajo didn't make its way into it. And you were like, yeah, it was surprising that they didn't make its way into it. But with Alex being the main character of the shoot, I didn't know if it was just about the Honnold foundation talking about what they did that didn't make it into it. So I didn't want to pivot it and be like, so tell me about being Native American and then be weird. So I just kept silent.

Havos

No, I think it was just because it was a commercial one. It was like 50 or 60 seconds long. It's like. That was like a whole.

John

But. But it would have seemed like I was just, like, fishing. It was. I was just, like, fishing for that info. If I had plugged it in there in that context. So I skipped it.

Havos

Yeah, no, no, it would. Yeah. I don't think there's really.

John

Do you want a more targeted question?

Havos

Well, it's also. I was, like, looking for the document, and I was, like, half paying attention, if I'm being honest.

Chance

Yeah, the Question was not targeted. It was basically just like, go ahead.

John

Yeah. Let's start it from the beginning. What's it like being someone with Navajo heritage in America?

Havos

I think is great overall. Obviously, like I said, I moved when I was like, four, and then I would come back for, like, summers. And Navajo was the first language. And so, like, learning English was, like, surprisingly difficult.

John

Can you say something to me in Navajo right now? What does that mean?

Havos

Hurry up, little one.

John

Shut up. Why do you think of that?

Havos

It's just what. It's what said to all little kids at some point.

John

Say something to Zach.

Havos

Ja E. He's talking about my foreskin again. It literally translates to no ears, but it means, like, not listening. Like, pay attention.

Chance

Okay.

John

Ah. Okay.

Havos

So it's a. There's a reason it's like a. Presented as like, a savage language because it's like, more verb orientated.

John

And so it's like, don't yada yada that. What do you mean?

Havos

It's like, so, you know, like I said, no ears. It's like, so there's no modern words for a certain thing. So, like, there's no word for light. So if I wanted you to turn off the light, it would sound like. Make it go dark.

John

Yeah.

Havos

Like, it makes sense when you hear it.

John

But to, like, Other languages do that, though.

Havos

Yeah, they actually. A language that's surprisingly close to it is Klingon.

John

Really? Yeah.

Havos

Like, in, like, general, like, structure and like, it's very, like, basicness.

John

But. Yeah.

Havos

And so it's. I mean, it's a very. It's. I'm oversimplifying on a lot of things. Like, grammatically, it is very much like. Like Japanese or Arabic.

John

Was it your parents that taught you?

Havos

Well, I lived before I moved, I lived in a house. It was three families total. So it was like my great grandma, then like my mom and dad and my family, and then my auntie's family. So there was 11 kids, six adults, one great grandparent. So it was just kind of like it was just there and we were like, on a ranch. And so it was just. It's very good for, like, descriptive things and personal life, but once it comes to, like, the modern world, it's not efficient.

John

Do you feel a pressure to need to remember it really well, because so few people speak it compared to other languages these days?

Havos

I do. I really wish I. Yeah, I really do wish I had still spoke it because, you know, there was like, there were some grandparents who did not speak English or they spoke very poor English. And So it was just like, just communicating with them that. Luckily, Navajo is the largest Native American tribe in the entire world.

John

And

Havos

there's a very small chance of it going like. But if I was pretty much literally any other tribe, I would feel more of a pressure.

John

Right?

Havos

But I just. I meet so many people that, like, that are my age that speak it fluently, and I don't feel. I don't feel as bad, personally. I would really love to, like, to, like, get it back. I don't think it's gonna happen, though.

John

It cut me off of amassing too many. I just have so many. When you mentioned your house structure, was that on a reservation?

Havos

Yes.

John

What's the reservation like? Very.

Havos

I mean, we joke about it being, like, very common joke is like, oh, if the apocalypse happens, I wish I was on the reservation. Because everything happens 10 years later. So very Third World ish. You know, it depends. So that's. That's kind of like the start. So the Alex Honnell foundation was actually. Started with, like, solar power. And so he was bringing, like, solar panels and, like, structures into places out just literally in the middle of nowhere with no, not even close to having anything like power grid. And so it's usually a very basic, like, solar panel, one single light, because they lived in. It's called the hogan, so. Or Navajo version of, like, a teepee. It's like a permanent structure, and it's like one room, so you only need one bright light and you'll be good. And so it was like, people who are, like, trying to, like, you know, little kids are, like, going to school and they can't study or they, like, they need, like, electricity for, like, basic things. So that was like, his whole start because he did, like, this weird suffer fest thing through the desert, and he kind of like, really. But sorry.

John

No, don't apologize to me. I'm literally asking you to tell me things. I don't want this to sound naive or stupid, but I also only know so much from the seat that I'm in. I've read a bunch of books trying to do research on the at, and some of them have led out west. And most of them, when that happens, I kind of skim through because I want to focus on the East. But one of the things I've read is with the reservations, especially the ones out west, they originally designated, like, a certain amount of land and for X amount of families. And as time went on and those families had kids and grandkids. And grandkids, they still have that certain X parcel. And Then that has to get divided by all the people. And then it's so small at the end of it. Is that, Am I like. Do you, Are you familiar with what I'm saying?

Havos

Yeah.

John

What is that? What is that? Because I like when I, when I think of a reservation in my mind, just to give you, like, a white redheads perspective.

Havos

Yeah.

John

I think unknown. I shouldn't go there because it says I'm not supposed to, and also, like, cramped and we've really fucked these people over. The main probably three thoughts I have.

Havos

Yeah, I think it's pretty accurate. Yeah. With I think, a really, like, famous example of, like, oh, we're going to give you this land. And then, oh, they discover, you know, the Sioux, the Lakota tribe, and in the Black Hills, they like, here's all this wonderful land. This is your ancient ritual space. Cool. They discovered gold on it.

John

This happened in Georgia, too. If you fight the at Dalanega.

Havos

Dahlonega was so, it's like, so same thing with, like, Navajo land. It was like uranium, Uranium ores was, like, found. And so they were, like, mining it. And then they weren't doing a really good job because you can do it cheaply. And then that, like, contaminated water that affects more things downstream. So this whole, whole thing. So, yeah, it is, it's very cramped in terms of, like, ownership. It's, from what I understand, like, younger generations like mine and, like, nieces and nephews are just wanting to get out of the reservation.

John

That's the solution is like, well, that

Havos

was, like, my mom's solution. And it's worked the best out of, like, my family that I grew up with, like, the original.

John

Okay, well, more for me, and then I'll let Zach ask something. What would be your ideal solution?

Havos

Oh, that's deep.

John

I know.

Havos

That is a deep question.

John

So sorry to end it like that. No. Curious.

Havos

No, I, I, I've thought about such things. You know, when you're hiking, you have nothing but time and. Yeah. And I kind of like, play with the idea. Like, oh, if you had, like, a genie and, like, you have these three wishes, what would they be? And then, you know, like, the first two are altruistic and the third one's, like, selfish. And then, like, I'm always thinking, oh, would it be like, yeah, we were like, manifest destiny never happened. And then. But then it was like something else would happen in its place. And so it's never. I like to wish I would, like, know an ideal situation, like, solution, but also to, like, just be given something is Not. It's not earned, so it's not appreciated. So if we were just giving everything back and giving a lot of money, I don't think it would really be, like, a. Right. So I know it's kind of.

John

I would argue with you on the ground that if it was unrelated taken, then it's not unfairly given. But I've also. I've also thought about this in some detail because, like, I've seen all the, like, give the land back. Like the give, give it back kind of, like, movements.

Havos

Yeah.

John

And my brain, as a simpleton, is like, I don't see how society continues if that were to happen. Like, I just don't see that happening.

Havos

Yeah.

John

And that's sad because, like, obviously, like, that would be great, but I don't see how we could give, like, all of it back and then, like, still run a capitalist society. And so I don't see it happening. And so then I'm like, okay, well, like, if we can't do that, like, what, like, what, like, what's. Like, what's the next ideal? You know? Because I just. I don't know. Yeah.

Havos

So I think, yeah, the ideal situation would be to give it all back. But it would have been within one generation of it being taken. Would be in the. Would have been the ideal. And there is a lot of stuff that natives do get. Like, any native that gets into, like, an Ivy League does get paid for.

John

They pay you well.

Havos

They pay for the education.

John

Oh, okay. They also then paid you.

Chance

No, no.

Havos

Like, that's sick. But that's like, that's it.

Chance

Yeah.

Havos

But that is a great example. But it has to be Ivy League. Oh, it can't just be like.

Chance

Seems like a weird.

Havos

It's like, it's. But it's so high. You're like, okay, you got to this level and.

John

Yeah, like, interesting.

Havos

I did take advantage of that.

John

What else? What other.

Chance

You did take advantage of that.

Havos

And then I.

John

What Ivy Leagues. You go to Princeton.

Chance

No shit.

Havos

But for one semester. And then I moved.

John

This still counts.

Chance

Why'd you move?

Havos

For a girl.

John

Classic.

Chance

The real devil.

Havos

We don't need to put that in. Anyway,

Chance

I'm curious to know about what you've observed in terms of the difference in culture between, like, just the appreciation for the land with the tribal nation and just what you see. Backpacking, traveling the country.

Havos

Yeah. So I think so. My family. My family is like a family of ranchers. So I think that's also why a lot of, like, pct. And the AZT is pretty Much like in the backyards of like ranches and PCT was originally what, like stock and horse trails and they just, yeah, combine and like combine everything. So I, I really liked it that a couple of times went out of my way to kind of like just kind of be on the edges of them. And so I think as long as it's like people who care for land, native or not, the respect is there because I've, you know, I've definitely know firsthand a lot of like 100 full blooded natives and they just don't care. They just go through life being a menace and I, you know, doesn't matter that they're native. They're. They're taught the same things that, you know, that I'm taught and they just choose, choose to be unproductive or choose to like be part of the problem. And that's not always the case obviously, but kind of just makes me realize that people are people and yeah, it does suck. And the things that happen to us are done by people who are no longer alive and done to people who are no longer life and we can only make the best of what we have. And like I said in my particular situation that was like my mom and dad com both decided that they were gonna, you know, go across the country and. Yeah. And then so, and it was interesting because I've heard like, I like learned about like their decisions and their decision making like many years after the fact that. But my dad had a full ride football scholarship and he, my mom and dad decided that my mom was the breadwinner and so she knew. So she's a civil engineer. She had like a partial scholarship but he decided to drop out of college. They had us when we were like really young. My mom had all four of her kids by the time she was 24.

John

Oh, wow.

Havos

So. And

John

so where was your before you keep going, where is your dad going to play football for?

Havos

University of New Mexico. And then. But yeah, he's. Yeah, but yeah, so they, so when I like kind of like tell the story and people were like, oh yeah, your mom was so good independent. I was like, no, it was like a joint decision. Grandparents helped with like money when they could. And so it was like a really big. Yeah. When you kind of like look back at it, it's like, oh yeah, she did this and she. Yeah, everyone had their roles to play, but yeah, his was like to give up, to give up his dream and then to like provide for us by becoming a carpenter.

John

Was it hard for them to leave

Havos

the reservation from what I understand, yeah, it was harder for my dad than it was for my mom. My mom's parents died when she was really young, so she had like her grandma. But my dad was like really, really close with his family.

John

Because you, like you said they do the multi general living where you're all in one house.

Havos

Yeah, well, that was more so because we're poor rather than like a. That's.

John

Oh, I thought that was by choice.

Havos

No, that's the uncommon thing.

John

Okay. I thought that was just like a family structure thing.

Havos

No, it was just like my great grandpa built that house and it was just happened to be big enough to like house all of us.

John

Okay.

Havos

It was like the cheapest option. And so I do remember like aunties, uncles, my mom and dad all worked at like different food places. One would be like a supermarket, fucking cashier, like fast food. Yeah. And then we were like, we wouldn't have dinner until everyone got back at like 11pm or midnight. They would wake us all up, have dinner, and then we'd go back to sleep. So we were like super poor. I remember it was a really big day when we got running water.

John

Were you an outlier in that sense or were the people in the community around you also struggling in that manner?

Havos

No, we, we were an extreme example of that. I mean there were people just because we were like very close to the mountains. We were like the last house before you went up the Chiska Mountains, which is on the border of Arizona, New Mexico. So it is very much like a, an outlier in that, you know. And then like anyone who was like even close to a town would be, would have like running water, electricity. But like. Yeah, I remember my, my dad telling me that when they like had to get like electricity in, the power grid was free, but they had to pay for the poles. And so they were loggers. So they went up to the mountain, chopped down trees, shaved them down, and then they provided the poles in which like electricity would come through.

Chance

Wow.

Havos

So it was like a meat halfway point.

Chance

Yeah.

John

That's cool.

Chance

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from my understanding, I know historically the Navajo tribe has like a really strong spiritual connection with the land. Like a really holistic relationship. Is that still present in the, the tribe that you grew up in? And like, I know you mentioned that like some people aren't respectful of the land, but like, how present is that at large?

Havos

Yeah, it's, it is definitely there, like kind of similar. You can say like, oh, is. Do people go to church? You say oh, yeah, there's heaps of people at church on every Sunday, but, like, oh, do you personally go to church? It could be yes, could be no. Same thing. Yeah. You see it. You see it all the time, actually. I did. So there's like a coming of age ceremony which includes the land. This is a coming of age ceremony for. For girls. And it has to do with running. And so the basic thing is that you run a certain distance at sunrise and sunset for like four or five days in a row. Basic rules are you, you can't. You have to just run. You can't walk or jog. Well, you can jog, but you can't, like, stop. And the other rule is probably more important is that you have to go further than you did before, like, the last time. So it can be. You can literally just go from, like, you can go like 50ft and then you can go like 60ft. But the goal is you go further. It signifies the further you go, the further in life you will go. So my sister holds, like, the family record. I don't know exactly what it is, but it's like, I think her last one was like eight miles round trip,

John

which when you did that 19 miles,

Havos

that was just kind of random. That was just like.

John

But would that be what you would have done in that circumstance is just like, run till you can't?

Havos

Yes. So that's. So this is kind of what I did on the PCT and the act. I would, like, during resupplies, I unknowingly started doing it. And then after a while, I was like, I'm gonna consciously do this where I would do, like. So I remember, like, my biggest miles were like, I'm gonna start, like, I'm feeling Really good. 30 days. Well, 30. 30 miles. And then I was like, oh, I have to do more than 30 miles the next day. So then I'll do like 32.

Chance

Interesting.

Havos

And then I would do 35 and then 40. And then, then it was like, okay, resupply. Okay, it resets. So this is how I did. I'm not going. I'm going like 2.7, 2.8 miles an hour. It's just like 15 hour days.

Chance

Yeah.

Havos

This was my own version of. I was by myself the majority of the trail.

John

You got to make fun where you can.

Havos

Yeah.

John

And it sounds like it, like, put your mind on something and gave you a goal.

Havos

Yeah, exactly. So it was just. Yeah.

Chance

Is this fun or is this like you trying to actively connect with your culture?

Havos

Or it became actively connecting to it in My own way. Like I said, this is a. This is a coming of age ceremony, but this is for, like, specifically for girls. Guys don't particularly have one that I'm aware of. There's, like, different. The other thing is that Navajo is a Navajo nation. There's like a couple hundred thousands of us. So what I do know, because we are. We're closer to the mountains, our rituals are slightly different than.

John

We've also absorbed a lot of other tribes, too, over time. So I'm sure that those have filtered in as well.

Havos

Yeah, yeah. So there's. So, yeah, there's like all these. So we. Yeah, like, I'm very well over. Like, okay, this is what we believe. But yeah. And then kind of coming back to, like, you know, like, holistic. Yeah, we want to. Because we're a family of, like, mainly ranchers, we used to have, like, a bunch of corn that we grew in, like, two different spots. One lower elevation, one upper. And so that kind of, like, if you didn't know, corn is, like, the most, like, biodiverse, like vegetable. Is it vegetable? Yeah, vegetable. They don't know the exact origins, but there's like a couple thousand different variations. But it can grow at, like, any. In almost any condition as long as you have, like, the correct corn.

John

I've read about that when I was doing mile by mile stuff, like in the Smokies and, like, areas where they left the Piedmont and they were starting to go up into the blue Blue Ridge. Like, a lot of that land was untillable for other stuff, but because corn could grow so easily on, like, any steep ridge slope where they could find a patch, they'd plant corn. Question I. Have you mentioned. So you mentioned going faster each day than the day before and resetting when you get to a resupply. Are there other. And I don't know necessarily how to word this, but any, like, ceremony or ritual type things that are specific to you being Navajo that you either practice or observe or put into some sort of thing you do on trail.

Havos

There is. There's things I do. It's more so, like, I shouldn't. Unfortunately, I'm not like a true practitioner just because I've seen the spirituality of Navajo and then like the Catholicism of our conquerors, and they get mixed. So at my local church, there's a Native American Jesus with hogans in the background painted. So it's like by combining the two of them, you end up with neither. And so I was very aware of this, and I did go to, like, Bible camp, and I Like, my family is very, like, Catholic, but at the same time, they also have these very Navajo rituals where, like, Jesus and God are not talked about. So it's a very weird duality to have, and I was very well aware of it. And then, like, obviously, like, moving when I was really young and, like, seeing all these other, like, the Amish have their. Their own things. And then there's Quakers. And then I was like, oh, so there's no real answer. It's, like, how I processed it. And so because of this, I do things, but I'm like, I'm not. My heart is not in it. I, like, I envy people who, like, truly believe. And so when I, like, come to, like, if I can tell I'm going from, like, a different climate or, like, a different, like, zone, you know, I did this, like, on, like, parks or wildernesses, I would just say, hey, I would, like, sounds, like, super weird, but I would, like, introduce myself to the land. And then. And if I was, like, traveling with anyone, be like, hey, my name is Havos. I have some friends here. Let us pass by, like, super basic. And it's not like a ritual. It's literally in smooth. And I say it out loud. Even though you're not necessarily supposed to. Kind of, like, same with, like, praying. You, like, supposed to, like, be inner. So, like, yeah, that's something that I do.

John

Sounds like you doubt it a bit.

Havos

Oh, I doubt it a lot. Yeah. I just do things just kind of like, oh, there's a.

John

There's a chance, like, just in case.

Havos

Just in case.

John

That must be conflicting.

Havos

It is a lot. Do you.

Chance

Do you doubt that there is the human to nature connection? Are you doubting your own ability to tap into that? A combination I get. What is the doubt?

Havos

I don't doubt the connection. I just doubt how it's. I think we lost our way. It's like Navajo culture, specifically, a little bit. Because it's, you know, it's an oral tradition. It's not written down.

John

Yeah.

Havos

And then, so four generations ago, something that was practiced, you know, it's like a game of telephone. Hey, this is how we're supposed to do it. This is how we're supposed to do. And then.

John

Okay, but not to argue your side for you, but, yeah, the oral traditions were passed down really well. And then, like, when you're not allowed to speak Navajo or, like, they're forcing your kids to not speak it and only learn English, like, okay, maybe those oral traditions are going to get passed down as well.

Havos

Yes.

John

But, like, for for centuries. They were passed down really well that way.

Havos

Yes. Yeah, I would say. I mean, we would. We can only assume because obviously there is no. Yeah, yeah, I would assume that is generally correct, but is.

John

I don't know either. I'm. The reading I've done has said that, like, at least. At least in the interactions of the people I've read about that have interacted with Native tribes in their stories has. There's never been an issue of Native tribes remembering their pasts.

Havos

Yeah.

John

You know, like, they. They seem to be able to manage that pretty well.

Havos

Yeah.

John

You know, and then it's just like, us that's like, oh, oral's hard. Put it in writing.

Havos

Yeah.

John

You know, that seems to be, like, a me problem.

Havos

Yeah. And there is some written language. Not written, like, Cherokee.

John

Sequoia made a language.

Havos

Yeah. Well, I was thinking mainly, like, there was a form of keeping financial records that was a form of strings, really. It was like the color of the

John

string, the knot, like the first abacus.

Havos

Abacus was like, more for calculating. This was like, just record keeping, because the string you can, like, ball up, you can put in your pocket. And then it was just like. And it was actually like a. It was an economics student that figured it out. He did it as a summer project, and he just, like, figured out that, oh, this was actually a form of

John

record keeping and the knots would, like, represent things.

Havos

Yeah. So it's. It kind of makes you wonder. A lot of them were just burned and destroyed. And then they had this, like, hey, his professor was like. Worked in a museum and he's like, if you can decipher this, I'll give you extra credit. And he was like, yeah, I'll decipher it. And that's. That's down in one of the Mexican. The American tribes, I believe. So who's to know, like, what's. What's been lost once again? We don't.

John

Yeah.

Havos

I mean, I hear stories from, like, my great grandparents, but, I mean, they're no longer with us. But I was like a little kid, so obviously, like, when you're telling certain stories, you embellish them. But yeah, when it comes to, like, you know, basic rituals, like, I'm pretty sure, like the running ritual called the kinolda. Super straightforward, simplistic. I think that's been, like, pretty held on. But when it comes to, like, because, you know, we believe in, like, evil spirits and curses and so, like, oh, getting rid of them, there's, like, super specific ones. I was like, okay, some of these

John

might change you mentioned your parents studied Catholicism, is that right?

Havos

Yes.

John

Which belief process do you more strongly resonate with the native. The. The Navajo version or the Catholic version?

Havos

For me it's pretty. It's pretty even. Like I believe in the words of Catholicism, like the overall message, you know, just because it. Catholicism is referring. It's more focused on like yourself, sins repenting. Whereas native traditions is. It doesn't. It does mention some of that, but it's more so like, oh, you. The people are more important than the single. And so it's. It is a mix so they can

John

work together because they taught they speak to different genres.

Havos

That is why both do currently exist side by side.

John

Oh, but interesting.

Havos

The problem with Catholicism is the way it was presented in the know.

John

Boarding schools and not great things.

Havos

Yeah, no.

John

Yeah.

Havos

So yeah, in an ideal world they can coexist and intermingle, but by, like I said, by combining them in certain

John

ways, I'm being really selfish here. I have one more. Can I do one more? Do they. Do your relatives or anyone on the reservation? Do they ever tell you guys about the code talkers?

Havos

Oh yeah. My grandparents were code about talking talkers.

John

Were they?

Havos

I have three.

John

Really? I thought it was like a small group.

Havos

What is.

John

Shut up. You don't know. This is like the best book you could have ever read in middle school.

Havos

I don't.

John

Oh my God.

Chance

Maybe I read it.

John

It's like World War II. I don't want to explain it for you. Do you want to explain? No, no. Good.

Havos

I would.

John

I would love hearing people, they. I'm gonna butcher this. This is like. You guys know my memory. World War II, we were trying to like get messages across during the war. And we didn't want the messages get intercepted and unraveled by the Germans and whoever like that, whatever the powers were that were against us. And so any type of code that we made kept getting broken, kept breaking them, kept breaking and kept breaking them. And we'd been sending Native Americans to these fucking schools. Like in Carlisle on the at, there was an industrial school, send Native American kids there. They cut their hair, they make them speak English and they beat them if you can't right, like up. And so they basically apparently, quote, unquote, not my words, beat the Indian out of them. And so they would force them to not speak their native languages. And many people lost these native languages that they would speak, including Navajo, because they were like, we need you to speak English well. Jokes on you guys. School people. Because Now World War II comes and we can't make a code that's unbreakable. And all of a sudden they're like, hey, you know what's, like, really hard to decipher that Navajo you guys have been speaking. So they bring in these people that are Navajo, and they make them speak Navajo to each other. And that's how they translate their codes, is like, army person tells message to Navajo person. Navajo person translates message in Navajo to other person, translates back to other guy. And the Germans are listening. Like, we don't know what the fuck they're saying. And it's like, wow, this is incredible. No one can crack this code. And it's like, oh, it's a shame that we also just, like, beat it out of, like, how many of our many children. I don't know. A little bleak. A lot of bleak. But that is the general concept. It's a really good book.

Havos

And you said your parents were grandparents? Grandparents, yes. Yeah.

John

Did I. Did I miss. Did I misrepresent or miss and not cover anything there?

Havos

No, it was pretty kind of just one small. We only ever used it against the Japanese. Not the Germans.

John

Japanese. Sorry.

Havos

But I was told by my parents, like, their grandparents said that, oh, if they. The war went on for another, like, three months, they would have been in Germany.

John

Yeah, okay, so that I missed. I misspoke.

Havos

But, yeah, yeah, no, it's extremely accurate. And then, so, yeah, so there was a lot. Navajos, like I said before, is the largest Native American tribe in the world and has been for a very long time. And so, like, oh, there's a lot of these people already in the military. And then, so they had what they called the original 23. So it's 23 Navajo people who, like, made the code.

John

So just your grandparents in the 23

Havos

one might have been. I need. I don't think so.

John

I'm have to get there. I'm going to have to reread this book and get their name from you. I love the book.

Havos

So we'll have to see, because, you know, once again, people like to embellish stories. And so people were like, oh, yeah, my great grandparent was in the original 23. I've heard it. I have not checked the validity of it, but apparently, yes, one of mine was. But that's really cool.

John

So.

Havos

And so, yeah, so they would. So they just knowing Navajo wasn't enough because the Japanese eventually figured out, oh, this is a language, and we are going to. So they would capture anyone who was brown, and then eventually they find, like, sift them out, and they're like, okay, this is a Navajo person. So they would have. They would torture the Navajo people prisoners to translate the code. They would translate it, but it was still encoded. So they're just like. Like, yeah, here's what they're literally saying. I don't know what it means.

John

Oh, so they're translating it. It's like mayonnaise to green tomato. It's, like, still bullshit.

Havos

It's. It's a double code. The language itself is a code. And then the code in itself. And then they would change that.

John

Oh, that's so frustrating.

Havos

Yeah. And so. But, yeah, the Germans had the Enigma machine, which is, like, mechanical marble at the time. And then, like, Alan Turing on, like, the British side was, like, trying to crack that. But then Americans were like, we're not even gonna try. We have, like. And then. So Navajos get, like, the most glory. There was, like, Cherokee, Pawnee, Blackfoot. They all had their own kind of, like, sub, smaller, like, code talkers. But, yeah, because. Because Navajos were so pivotal in, like, the war, because they could. They could do a coded message, but it took, like, exponentially longer than it would take, like, four or five minutes to, like, send a code. Send a message from, like, the battlefield to headquarters. There's actually a good movie about it.

John

What's the movie called?

Havos

Windtalkers, starring Nicholas Cage.

Chance

Oh, nice.

John

Shut up, Windtalkers. Watching that. Watching that. The book was so good, but also, like, I got pissed off reading the book because I'm like, really? We're gonna treat them like shit for all this time and then be like, we need you. And then treat the. Treat them, like, again. Does that ever piss you off?

Havos

It does, but, like, I said, like, it. I, like.

John

I like. I like. I can't get pissed for you, because I'm not, you know, like, I'm. No, but I read it and I'm like, I'd be really mad if that was. And I'm not saying you guys aren't mad, but.

Havos

No, I. It was a lot of, you know. A lot of. You know, when you're, like, just a young, angry man, you're just. Sometimes it comes out, like, in different ways, and you're like, I want to do this. I want to change it. And you're like, I don't know how. You just don't. But yeah. Yeah. I wish I could go back and change it somehow, some way, but I know there's.

John

That's really frustrating, but I'm sorry.

Havos

No, it's not good. Well, the Americans did get the right to vote in the state of New Mexico three years after the war. So that was.

John

Well, at least there's that.

Chance

I mean. So Tonsa asked about the anger associated with that specifically, but just how do you carry around anger, resentment, sadness, whatever array of emotions just based on the history of how your people have been treated?

Havos

I used to a lot more. And then, I mean, this is gonna be really blunt. I realized just, like, it's. It's pointless unless I, like, try to do something about it. So I have, like, a lot of family that's in politics that's, like, mainly, like, Native Americans have their Navajo nation has its own government system, and then there's, like, the New Mexico state has their own government system, and they also work together. And so I have a lot of family that's in said. So, like, they're like state senators, and they're actively, like, trying to do what I, you know, maybe in a different life had wished I had, like, pursued instead of just really long hikes into my bucket list of things I want to do and. But yeah, I think it's just. I. It's weird. I wish I was more angry about it.

John

Do you carry any guilt about that?

Havos

Sometimes. But then not to, like, crap on my, like, brothers, but they are not traveling. They are within the bounds of, like, a way to help and that. And they're just living their lives. They're not helping, but they're not, like, being a menace either. And I was like, oh, that could have just been me. And toy to my own horn. I am smarter than them. So I had better opportunities to, like,

John

make, you know, I went to Princeton. Excuse me?

Havos

Well, yeah, because. Well, I went to Princeton originally for law, but that was like. Like not my dream. It was, like, pushed upon me. And then I was like.

Chance

So was. You weren't leaving just for a girl. Like, you were leaving because you didn't. Your heart wasn't in it.

Havos

Yeah, and then I definitely would have stayed if it wasn't a girl. Oh, my God.

John

You're sounding very Rory Gilmore right here when she drops out of yell. Do you watch Gilmore Girls?

Havos

Yeah, I. One of my favorite jokes is like, oh, I never cry unless I'm like,

Chance

no.

Havos

Like, sometimes you yawn and then you tear up and you're like, you crying. And I was like, I just watched the season finale.

John

That's funny. Okay, well, that was. That was. That was like, not, like, not. I don't want to say it was fun to do that bonus segment, because I don't think it was like, A very fun topic, but I think it adds some good context to the meat.

Chance

Yeah. I might actually cut that back into the interview.

John

I was thinking that as that happened, that should be cut back.

Havos

Yeah. No, there's. Yeah, it's an endless. Sure. But I also once met Emma Watson, who loved that I was Native American and then I could see.

John

You met her.

Havos

Yeah.

John

Shut up.

Havos

Well, I was at Princeton and she was at Brown, and I went to a party and she was there.

John

You went to a party with Emma Watson?

Havos

Well, it wasn't like just us. It was like. But it was like. I guarantee she doesn't remember it.

John

No, I get what you mean. I'm still. That's my dream. I'm in love with her. She's incredible.

Havos

She is.

John

She's so put together.

Havos

I agree.

John

Oh, how was she?

Havos

Very lovely.

John

Exactly how I would expect her.

Havos

Yeah. Obviously very educated. Semi didn't want to be there. I also didn't want to be there, which I think is why we like. And then she speaks fluent French and then she's like. I was like. The girl I was there with was French, like 100%. And so I was, like, learning a lot of French. And so we were like, speaking very basic French and she's like your neighbor who speaks French. And then we started talking about the French Indian War. And then there was like this whole.

Chance

Wow.

John

I could see how you'd get from one to the other.

Havos

Yeah, it was. And then it was like, halfway through the conversation, I was like, you're Hermione.

John

Wait, that was with her. That she was like, wait, you speak French and you're Native American? The French in Indian War?

Havos

Yeah.

John

Shut up.

Havos

Yeah. So it was like. Yeah.

John

I'm starstruck. You know Gavin. Gavin Garrett. Oh, my God, I'm becoming old. Ah. Zach. Zach doesn't watch Harry Potter, so. He doesn't.

Chance

I know who Emma Watson is, but I've never seen Harry Potter. I know, she's hot. That's good.

Havos

This is also like Pretty Woman, which is.

John

Yeah.

Chance

I haven't seen the book remakes.

Havos

Yeah.

John

The live action Beauty and the Beast.

Havos

Actually haven't seen that one. Oh, it's good. Yeah.

Chance

I saw the original Pre Woman.

John

Perks of being a Wallflower.

Havos

No. Oh, yeah. Her American accent.

Chance

That's really good. The only movie I've seen her in is this is the End.

John

The Bling Ring. The Bling Ring. She was in the Bling Ring.

Chance

Yeah.

Havos

That is it.

John

Look at me. A Wealth of Knowledge.

Chance

Yeah.

Havos

Look at that.

Chance

It's getting Late. I don't even know if I want to do my son hooding review.

John

Do you want to tell me about it or.

Chance

We'll save it for next episode. Yeah, I have a lot of sun.

Havos

I know.

Chance

I was like, yeah, we're gonna. We're gonna fly. Actually already swapped out the mailbag because the mailbag was super long.

John

So.

Chance

Yeah, Charles just gets to read nice things about herself right now.

Havos

Oh, great.

John

We're not. Oh, mailbag. Okay. Mailbag. AI data centers are sucking up water and power and leaving small rural towns in worse shape than they started from

Chance

s. I think these are Patreon comments.

John

Yeah. I don't disagree.

Havos

Yeah.

Chance

Yeah.

John

Oh, are they all okay? Those are all the mailbags. Got it. Alex Kindle says, viva Lachance parentheses from Rachel after her departure was announced. And then he says, not sad for the last one of these. Tbh. And then he said, okay. Saved by the triple crown for sure.

Chance

That was a comment on the you versus Jabba episode. Ah, yeah, yeah.

John

Good.

Chance

Yeah.

John

And the five star review, sir.

Chance

Kind of a mishmash of mailbags there, but yeah, you guys can leave us a comment on Patreon and we'll read those as well. Apparently. I like that.

John

And now for something more literate.

Chance

This is the five star review. This is. Sam is usually right. Subject is CCCC and the comment is cccc.

John

Thank you.

Chance

I think maybe they're testing that we'll

Havos

read anything or having a stream stroke.

Chance

Either way, thank you for your Cs. All eight of them. If you guys want to hear your review right on this podcast, head on over to Apple podcast and leave us any number of stars.

John

I thought you were going to say any number of Cs.

Chance

Any number of Cs.

John

Just said not one.

Chance

Eight Cs. And that is it for today's shoe. Thank you so much for listening and happy hiking.

John

Bye.

Chance

Here it is.

John

Paid in full.

Chance

One year's rent.

Havos

Free rent. Free year. We did it. We did it. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Free rent for where? For right here. I've been out walking snow many miles I've yet to go Never been one that's had to choose but every time I do I find I lose I guess I'm a loser stomping ground A welcome man for the loving crowd I

John

wish that you knew.