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Thomas Massie

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Ro Khanna

So hey, want to get started?

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Krystal Ball

Hey guys, Sager and Krystal here.

Saagar Enjeti

Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election and we are so excited about what that means for the future of the show.

Krystal Ball

This is the only place where you can find honest perspectives from the left and the right that simply does not exist anywhere else.

Saagar Enjeti

So if that is something that's important to you, Please go to BreakingPoints.com Become a member today and you'll get access to our full shows unedited ad free and all put together for you every morning in your inbox.

Krystal Ball

We need your help to build the future of independent news media and we hope to see you@breaking points.com Good morning everybody.

Saagar Enjeti

Happy Thursday.

Krystal Ball

We have an amazing show for everybody today. What do we have, Crystal?

Saagar Enjeti

Indeed we do. Latest on the Iran war as Trump reportedly explores ground options. I'm sure that will go great. He also seemingly is announcing a cover up of what exactly happened when we bombed that Manob girls school in Iran. Ro Khanna and Thomas Massie are going to join us live in studio. They have a lot to talk about. They have a new Epstein Transparency act that they are pushing that would help to enable prosecutions in places like New Mexico with the Zora Ranch. They also are just coming off the heels of this big vote in the House on Massie's amendment to strip aid from Israel, which created a whole fraction within the Democratic caucus. So very, very excited to have them live in person. Have so many things that we want to ask them about. We also have some news here about Brad Parscale. I don't know if you guys remember Guy, but he was the campaign chief for Trump. He has now got a $45 million contract to run a pro Israel influence operation that is effectively targeting, undermining the Iranian war negotiations. So pretty fascinating dynamics there and always important to expose who is getting paid and how these influence operations work. And I'm taking a look at how Doge fueled the explosive diarrhea epidemic and some other problems that are going on in the country. Thanks to Doge as well. So you definitely want to stay tuned for that one.

Krystal Ball

Excited for that one. A lot of viral around this. Maybe it's not panic, maybe it's actually justified. I'm excited to listen. Thank you to everybody who's been subscribing to the show. BreakingPoints.com, we of course have our free newsletter. But I do wanna take a moment here to just thank all of our premium subscribers. It's a really cool moment when Thomas Massie and Ro Khanna, this all came together very quickly and what we were able to do is our whole team just kicks into high gear for the studio, our producers, people getting here early. That is only enabled by the people who pay for our show. So breaking if you're able to do that. We actually, we were filming this a bit out of order and it was just incredible. Like it's, it's very rare to have that much time with these high profile politicians here in Washington. And yeah, just, I'm very thankful for our premium subscribers.

Saagar Enjeti

Yeah. By the way, as a little teaser, you guys are always asking us if Roe and Thomas Massie would run together on a presidential ticket. So we do Bring that, we do bring that up with them. So a lot of interesting responses, some news that's made, et cetera. You definitely want to check both of those blocks out as we split it into two.

Krystal Ball

BreakingPoints.com, if you're able to support our show, if you're watching this on YouTube, no worries. Please hit subscribe to our YouTube channel. Listen to this podcast, Please share an episode with a friend. But let's go ahead and start, as Krystal said, with the Iran war. Let's put a one up here on the screen. Some very troubling news out from the Wall Street Journal. Trump leans towards expanding US Military options in Iran, quote, while preferring diplomacy, Trump was briefed this week on options including use of ground troops and the bombing of Pickaxe Mountain. Longtime watchers of the show will know all about Pickaxe Mountain, which has become kind of this neocon. What's that castle the Israelis took in Lebanon, the useless castle like Beaufort Castle. So Pickaxe Mountain is the Beaufort Castle of the American neocons where they've just decided this mountain, it's gotta go. Alleged nuclear linked site. And, you know, we can't finish the job until we've taken Pickaxe Mountain. But what's even more troubling here is that in the Situation Room meeting, they discuss, quote, potential seizure of Carg island, which Trump has talked about, territory all along the Strait of Hormuz, using US Troops, the bombing of the tunnel complex at Pickaxe Mountain and expanding airstrikes against more targets in Iran, including energy strikes, all including that as a possibility. So there are some countervailing signs which will play for all of you. But right now, all the signs currently point towards more war. Let's go ahead and put a two up here on the screen. A very predictable thing. It's the same time Trump is considering expanding military options. You have President Trump says Iran called him a while ago and now they want to make a deal. And you also have, of course, the US Stock market, which extended its rally immediately upon the news. They never really learn, do they? Although they did end up closing down at the same time. You know, and I know we do mention this quite a bit, but you have to, I don't know, I just feel like it's so Titanic that and everything seems like it's fine. But with the oil where it's at, everyone who can read a chart, they're scared and they're beyond scared, actually with the resumption of hostilities. Put a three up here. The traitors Themselves, the people who have been buying the Trump Taco and all of that largely have been on the side of. It's not as bad as some of the worst purveyors of doom had said in the original war. They are now coming out and saying, we're close to running on empty as the Hormuz Strait is shut down again. So what they write is that member countries have already released 3/4 of the planned 400 million barrel emergency stock release that was announced in March. Quote, we have burned through all the buffers. We had everything. All of that is gone now. Oil prices have now rebounded somewhere around 80 to $85 a barrel. That's its highest since the original ceasefire was announced over a month ago. And what they also point out is that now the agreement that governments in the west and in Asia, quote, had pulled almost every lever available to them to ensure a supply crunch would not undermine the the world economy. Western powers have already released vast amounts of their Strategic Petroleum Reserve. But what they say here specifically is that there's no more slack left within the system. And so if we do see another six to eight weeks or maybe even a few more months of war, it is almost inevitable that shortages will come up somewhere. It won't be here in America. It certainly won't be because we'll all just pay a very, very high price. But there's all of these other factors that come into play where the Asian powers are the ones who. I read the Asian almost every day just to see what they're saying about Iran. And they were actually pretty muted over the last few months. We're back to panic. They're like, this is, they're like, here we go. What are we going to do? How are we going to get this oil out? It's 40 days away. You know, 40 days. Because in terms of tanker time, they're like, after that, we might run dry again. So the panic is setting back across East Asia.

Saagar Enjeti

I mean, I think we should take the President's word for it when he said, hey, another four weeks, I'm going to be Herbert Hoover and we're going to have all kinds of crisis because of the oil. I mean, he said that when he signed the mou. And I think he was telling the truth at that point. And certainly he has analysts and also had all of the CEOs of the large oil and gas companies who came to him and were saying, hey, this is where we're at. So that timeline is rapidly approaching. The clock is ticking. And in this article from the Financial Times they have specific numbers. The IEA on Friday said its members, member countries had released almost 3/4 of the planned 400 million barrel emergency stock release. I don't know if you guys watched Ryan's interview with Robert Pape yesterday. Pape was sounding the alarm about this as well. You know, the idea was that J.D. vance floated, oh, we're going to take this time to be able to refuel, restock, reload, whatever the verbiage was. Part of that was refilling the Strategic Petroleum Reserve. They have not done that. So we continue to have a dwindling of the Strategic Petroleum Reserve here in the US where you're now getting down to the literal bottom of the barrel. There isn't a lot more buffer there. We don't know what China's going to do. China has taken extraordinary measures themselves to reduce the amount of oil that they were importing from abroad. How long is that gonna last? It really, really is a very troubling situation. And you know, so I'm sure this is why Trump's coming out and saying, oh, they want to make a deal, et cetera. But I can tell you this morning I was just reading an article on cnbc, the Iranians are threatening aggressive retaliation. Cuz Trump is once again saying, oh, we're gonna blow up their bridges, their power plants, et cetera, with some credibility. Cuz they've attacked civilian infrastructure with no qualms in the past. The Iranian said everything in the region that is still intact, all the infrastructure in the region will be crushed under the steel blows of the powerful armed forces of the Islamic Republic of Iran. So no trace of them remains and it is as if they never existed in the first place. They added that under no circumstances and in no way will we allow America as a foreign and extra regional country to interfere in the Strait of Hormuz. This is Iran's invincible red line. Now, obviously there's a lot of propaganda bluster there, but in terms of the Strait of Hormuz being a hard red line that they will force, I think they have a lot of credibility at this point on that front.

Krystal Ball

I think you're totally right. And I think what really is worrisome is the disconnect in the messaging from the US Government. And so Trump yesterday gave an interview where he was said, well, maybe we'll just wipe them out. Like in terms of the IRGC and of course, some Fox News interview these people have, their IQ has got to be like bottom of the barrel. He goes, are you just going to wipe out the IRGC like you did isis. I'm like, yeah, it's not like we didn't just try to wipe out the IRGC anyways. I digress. And Trump goes, yeah, maybe I will. Meanwhile, the Vice President on the Joe Rogan podcast is making this tortured effort to say diplomacy's still on track. These are just blips in the radar, right? And I mean, in some ways he does say the truth out loud, which is for the people who want us to keep bombing, there's nothing else that can be done. He's like, eventually we do have to sit across from the table, but you have to convince Trump of that. So here is J.D. vance, a seven. I'm gonna start with saying, look, the people who want us to keep bombing, they have no solution. I would just add the addendum is here. He's trying to go after the neocons. Trump is also one of those neocons, at least as of right now. Let's take a listen.

Ro Khanna

What is their proposal?

Thomas Massie

The people think you shouldn't negotiate with Iran.

Joe Rogan (clip)

I think that their proposal is to bomb and bomb and bomb. And the honest view, Joe, is that they do not actually have a solution. If you actually ask them, what do you want us to do? What is the goal that you're trying to achieve? They'll say things like, we'll just bomb them to oblivion. Okay, we can do that, we can drop a lot of bombs, but what does that accomplish if there's still a crazy person who's still unwilling to shoot a few drones at the Strait of Hormuz? What the President has done, I think very, very capably is said. We're going to use military force in this situation when it's connected to something we're trying to achieve. So if you shoot at ships, we're going to shoot at the facilities at which you used to shoot at the ships. But we're not just going to do something open ended indefinitely. We're not just going to bomb and bomb and bomb. We're going to try to use our military force as one of the many tools that we have to solve the problem.

Krystal Ball

So you could see there, I mean, what he's talking about is the inevitable logic. But again, like Trump is the person who wants to keep resume bombing. And this is the basic fracture in the administration. JD's very committed to like the negotiation track, but there are other elements in the government which just don't care at all. You know, our friends at drop site, Jeremy Scahill and Ryan, let's go to their story A8 up here on the screen. They say Iran sent a message to JD Warning that Kushner and Witkoff, quote, were abusing their inside access to negotiations. By the way, the White House totally denied it. They said this is all, you know, completely fake, et cetera. But here's what a senior Iranian official who said directly to dropsite, we have transmitted data and assessments through an exclusive channel to Mr. Vance. With direct knowledge of the effort communicated to Vance, they believed Wyckoff and Kushner were abusing the diplomatic process, effectively disrupting the overall negotiating atmosphere. At one point, they claim that Iran had calculated profits from such alleged manipulation from Wyckoff and Kushner that reached $9 billion and formally requested in writing that Iran should have to share in the proceeds of all of their insider trading. Again, to be very. Wyckoff and Kushner completely deny it. The White House says that none of this ever took place.

Saagar Enjeti

I think the American people need to formally submit our request to share those proceeds. What do you think?

Krystal Ball

Yeah, let me in, let me in.

Saagar Enjeti

But I mean, the crux of this, the allegation here is that their corrupt inside trading is screwing up the effort to come to some sort of a negotiated deal here. It's an obstacle. It creates a problem in terms of actually sitting down, having some sort of negotiation that is perceived as remotely in good faith when all you see is the. These guys, you know, he's got all these development deals in the region. You see all these market, market manipulations from Trump and what he tweets, et cetera, that is making it actively more difficult to not be in this war. So it's not just a question of like morality. And it's disgusting the number of people in the Trump administration, including Trump and his family at al, who are just using the country as their personal piggy bank. But it has a direct impact on what is happening to our country, on the way our foreign policy is conducted, and on what is actually possible in terms of these negotiat.

Krystal Ball

What I think is the worst is we just don't see a realistic path to actual resolution. Like, do I think there will be another fake memorandum of understanding? Yeah, because inevitably you have to, right? Like oil has got to flow eventually, but can we really gonna solve the nuclear issue? Like, it just seems so impossible. If we can't even sit without firing bombs for three weeks, how can we possibly get to a situation where the United States has to accept Iranian tolls and control of the Strait of Hormuz and then furthermore basically guarantee Iran Hundreds of billions of dollars while they give up their nuclear ambitions for 15 years. I mean, it just seems impossible. And it's like, you know, I'm gonna kick right now. I'm reading a lot of World War I and World War II history, like more so even the normal. And when you see what it takes to either defeat somebody or bring them to the negotiating table, you haven't bled enough. And I know it's a horrible thing to say, but it's just empirically true. Either from loss of life or economically. Like the vast majority of Americans really only pay attention when gas prices are high. How many know that? As of right now, today, while you and I are speaking, Kuwait is under fire from cruise missiles. Not many.

Saagar Enjeti

Yeah.

Krystal Ball

And they don't particularly care.

Saagar Enjeti

Right.

Krystal Ball

They're not going to care, honestly, until gas is $7 a gallon. Iran knows this. That's why they continue to close the Strait of Hormuz. But there's just enough wiggle room there and you know, crazy stuff from the Trump administration other to try and just push it off further. And then same on the Iranian side. I agree with Trita. I think they dramatically overreacted by trying to undermine this memorandum of understanding, as in immediately shooting instead of calling. But I also get it from their perspective when Trump is like, I'm gonna kill you while you're in the middle of Geneva. Like if somebody said that to me, you know, it's like if I were to negotiate with a pro Israel person, immediately I'm always like, you're lying. You know, it's like my absolute going in. How could we ever establish any baseline of trust? Somebody who's constantly trying to undermine you, tried to kill you. I understand where they're coming from too. So I just, I don't see how we can get out of this. Like somebody has got to bleed a lot. And I hope it's not us, but I seem to think so.

Saagar Enjeti

Well, and on the politics of it, we already recorded the interview with Thomas Massie in Ro Khanna, and Congressman Massie said something that was, I think, important for people to hear because there's a lot of sense. Cuz you see the Tuckers out there, you see the Tim Dillons out there, you know, who are unhappy, who are on the right and unhappy with the Zagaran Jettis of the world, who are unhappy with the Iran war. The MAGA base supports it. Yeah, they are. They're all in. It's like 70, 80% of the MAGA base that's like, yes, Iran war. And so when we were asking Thomas Massie about the nature of his primary defeat, he made sure to bring up, yeah, it was the Israel lobby, it was going against Trump. It was also the Iran war, being opposed to it because it's very popular. And we were asking about his future political ambitions. He's like, that's going to be a real obstacle for me in the Republican Party for now. You know, that train may shift, but for now, it's a problem. And I think it's very different from how people are perceiving the politics of it, because for Trump, looking at the midterms, the landscape is already really bad. People are unhappy. Republicans are sort of disenchanted over the Epstein files and other things. There's a lot of malaise there. So. So they're already less likely to turn up at the polls than Democrats. We've seen that in all kinds of special elections. You ask them to also swallow a humiliating Iran war defeat that is actually going to make your midterm results even worse than they already are. So it's damned if you do, damned if you don't from Trump, for a political perspective. But it actually, you know, his political incentives are not necessarily to end the war now. His political incentives may be to keep it going through the midterm so he doesn't have to fully swallow the level of humiliation that will be required to bring this thing to a close. And so I think that's another dynamic here that we have to take into account as well. His base wants this war to keep going. They want to see the bombs dropped and Karg island taken and him to be heroic, tough guy, et cetera. They don't want to see now we've done sanctions relief and Iran has all of this newfound power in the region. That is not where they are.

Krystal Ball

I mean, that's where page escalation trap, you know, model is just so. It is so obviously true at this point. And it is also, I mean, very tragically for the US and even for Iran. You know, look, Iran is. Iran is desperate. Because what they also know, as I was reading this morning, is the world will eventually figure it out, like we did with Ukraine and Russia. Right at the beginning, it was a crisis. After a couple years, you figure out how to get natural gas to. To different places. It's bad, but everyone kind of moves on. Iran has got to actually forced hand now, so they have a direct incentive. And at the same time, America, which has not bled and Trump, who cannot admit total defeat, at least not yet, has got to do something Extra. And in any one of those extra maneuvers, it brings death and immense cost to America. You know, one of the, because we had Thomas Massie and Ro Khanna added at last minute, you know, there was this whole segment that I was gonna do about all of like the lack of munitions. It is so much worse than even I thought. $500 million we put into a factory. It hasn't produced a single round, not one round. 500 million. And we gave 3 million of these rounds to Ukraine. The whole point of the money, remember Biden was like, this is good for America. Cause we'll make all these weapons here. They haven't been made. It's impossible to make apparently just from a manufacturing backlog. I'm looking at the state of, of the US Navy, the F35. For the first time in 20 years, the Pentagon is blocking an open source report about the F35. Why do you think after one just got hit over Iran. I'm looking at this and then the oil, I mean again, you know, you have to read only a few books to say it may not be the Iran war that breaks us. It may be that the total destruction and depletion of the American empire as a result of this. Then when the next one comes completely out of nowhere, that's how you find yourself broken completely and you lose everything in a matter of a month. That's the stuff that just absolutely terrifies me. And you can just see it, you know, every day. Four missiles here, cruise missiles there, drones going here, Iranian ships or Iranian, you know, the United States bombed an oil tanker which was docking at Kharg island for the first time ever. We had never done that before. As a result, they blew that up and potentially some oil infrastructure. Iran is saying like very seriously, you are going to burn if you continue this app. And I just, I don't see a way out. The one last piece potentially of good news, I don't wanna say that it hasn't happened is let's put a nine up here on the screen is it does appear that there was some American woman. Trump writes, Iran has allowed an American citizen who is wrongfully detained in December 2024 under Joe Biden to leave the country. She is now safely outside of Iran and in good condition. America appreciates this gesture of goodwill from Iran. So that could be a good thing. I just don't know. But my only. You know, again, I have no idea who this woman is. There's no open source reporting or any of this. This could potentially try to be a sign of putting things back on track. But just like America has internal factions and domestic politics, so does Iran. It's very clear their hardline faction doesn't want to give another inch. So we'll see what else can be said. Say, let's get to Minab.

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Saagar Enjeti

So you all will recall that in the early days of the Iran war we dropped a bomb on a little girls school, the Manob School, and killed over 150 children. There has been an investigation internally, allegedly launched here within the US Government. Trump keeps claiming, though making this claim, that oh, we may Never know what happened. Even though that appears to be patently false. It is very fine downtown. What actually happened? We have reporting on what actually happened. Let's go ahead and take a listen to his latest claims.

Thomas Massie

Democrats released a letter calling on your administration to unveil the findings of the investigation into a strike that killed more than 100 children on the first day of the war.

Krystal Ball

Will you commit to releasing the findings of this investigation?

Ro Khanna

Well, I'd have to speak to the generals that are doing the. Because mostly of generals, you know, I don't think anybody's going to ever be able to say what happened there.

Thomas Massie

There are images from this site that show fragments that appear to be from U.S. tomahawk missiles. Is it possible that old intelligence or a mistake during a very active time in the war led to this event?

Ro Khanna

It is, but it's also possible that those images that you have are AI generated. Now I know we're waiting for a conclusive report. I don't think there can be a conclusive report.

Thomas Massie

Will you release the report when it is finished?

Ro Khanna

I guess so. I mean I have to ask military people there might be a reason why they can't.

Saagar Enjeti

And I'll tell you what that is. That is the announcement of a planned cover up. Because we already have reporting about what happened here. It was not difficult to figure out. We can put. Let's put the CNN report up on the screen. This is B3. They say that senior U.S. military commanders bypassed warnings in critical databases that intelligence about potential targets in Iran was severely out of date and approved some strikes, including one that hit a school killing nearly 200 children and adults. According to three sources. Familiar messages indicating the intelligence was based on years old intelligence that needed to be re vetted, were embedded in a system used for developing targets and required a senior officer to approve adding a site to the strike list. According to the sources. The decision by senior commanders to ignore the warnings was made for expediency, two of the sources said. In a rush to provide targets at the start of the war. It also directly contributed to the accidental strike on the school, according to those sources. In addition, they identify the fact that Hegseth has made drastic cuts almost to the point of eliminating the civilian harm mitigation and response programs slashed their staff at military commands by more than 90%. That included removing civilian harm specialists from target development strike teams and reducing the team of 10 at Central Command to only, only one full time staffer, again according to CNN. So you had two separate databases, one that's older, one that they're trying to use, you know, AI, automated systems. Both of them had instructions in there that the intelligence on these particular type of targets was outdated. We know that the satellite imagery shows that there were clear changes to this site, transitioning it from part of a base to this girl's school. But because they just wanted to rush and have a massive list of targets, they decided not to go and check.

Martha (Kohler Cast Iron Ambassador)

Yep.

Saagar Enjeti

And so you end up with the worst civilian death incident caused by the US military that we know of since the first Gulf War. I mean, that's how serious and how severe it is. We have the investigation, and now Trump is saying, oh, we may never know, and I'll have to talk to the generals about whether or not we're ever gonna release it.

Krystal Ball

I don't think that we understand how. How impactful this strike was in Iran. Like, the Iranians call their delegation for negotiations the MINAB 168. They have pictures printed out of the schoolgirls in their plane on the backs of the seats, so they know who they're fighting for. Their soccer team did a tribute to the MINAB 168. They have pins that they wear. One of the reasons they didn't want to shake JD's hand was because of the Minab incident in the negotiations in Jenil. Like, I don't think you can understand the psyche of Iran. Actually, maybe you can if you just, you know, maybe watch our show or not mainstream media, but, like, look at the crowds for the Ayatollah, who, by the way, I mean, they liked him, but a lot of people were very frustrated by his regime. Millions of people came out Storab Amari, remember, in the middle of the war, came on our show, and he said he was watching state tv. He's like, all they do is just. Just like, you know, worship martyrdom. Not just of the Ayatollah. They're like, there was this janitor. He was killed in a strike, and he's a national hero now. Like, in Iran, these people's names are. You know, everybody knows him in America. We all just kind of move on. But as you said, it's the worst civilian death incident is a Gulf War. By the way, that one was handled very differently. If you want to look at how the United States military reacted. I covered some horrible incidents. The Taliban or the Kunduz Hospital incident. I was a Pentagon correspondent at that time. Dramatic difference in the way that the lies were the same, but the reaction from Congress and others was totally different. About, like, we have to apologize. We have to Admit that this was a massive mistake. And the generals who were involved, like, somebody has got to pay this time around. Trump and the entire cover up of it, not only does it give Iran, you know, really a moral high ground in some cases, like whenever they, you know, come at us for their strike, but it also creates this culture of there will be no price paid. And that's exactly the opposite of what you want. Not just in terms of the morality, but I just laid out how much of a disaster it was. Like the entire point was, we want regime change. Let's murder 168 girls on day one of the entire war. You think that's gonna engender the whole population to you? No, they hate us for this. Like those schoolgirls. Everyone will know about them 50 years from now. You know, inside of Iran.

Saagar Enjeti

It's not hard actually to imagine because imagine that a foreign country bombed one of our girls schools.

Krystal Ball

Think about unforgettable.

Saagar Enjeti

Yeah, Think about Sandy Hook. Horrifying. I still remember covering that, like viscerally how horrifying it is. It's still just like unconscionable to imagine. That was 20 children. We're talking about 168 little girls. And here's the other thing that I don't know if people realize, but because, because, you know, we've had various Iranian analysts and Iranians on the show to tell us, from the Iranian perspective, they don't believe it was an accident. Yeah, they think that it was an intentional. And, you know, I can't really blame them for this after seeing what we aided and abetted with Israel and Gaza. They believe it was an intentional effort to put pressure on some of the irgc because a lot of their children were the ones that were going to this school. So they think that it was intentional. So again, not that they would believe the report that we put out, but at least if you had some information out here about, look, guys, here's how we fucked up, right? We didn't actually mean to do this. Here's what happened. It was human error. It was incompetence. Again, they may not believe that, but that would be important to put out to the world as at least saying, we are different than Israel. We actually do take seriously civilian deaths and civilian casualties. But I do think because of the barbarism that Israel and Gaza has put on the table, it makes it very easy for Trump to just shrug his shoulders and say, yeah, we may never know what happened. You know, fog of war, et cetera, et cetera. I guess I'll talk to the generals. But anyway, it also could have been AI So we're moving on. Really disgusting and really quite ominous for the future of warfare and the way that we conduct ourselves. And speaking of which, we had another horrifying situation here. It can put before up on the screen, US Missiles struck near a children's cancer hospital. There is, you know, a dispute over whether this was a direct hit or whether it was some nearby debris that caused this fire. At the children's cancer hospital, they say this is the first US Strike on an Iranian hospital in months. Additional strikes also causing damage to residential homes. Trump talks openly about committing war crimes. This is just, you know, hitting civilian infrastructure. This is part of his plan that he announces brazenly and openly. We've sort of gotten used to it, I guess, already, again, because of Gaza and because of the way that Trump and Hegseth operate. But in any previous era, this would have been a horrifying scandal. You never would have admitted this publicly. You know, you never would have celebrated or incorporated this as an explicit tactic. It's just become completely unhinged, insane.

Joe Rogan (clip)

I know.

Krystal Ball

And, yeah, to your point, Professor Morandi, let's put B5 up here on the screen. He says the Trump regime has just bombed a children's hospital in the city of Ahvaz. It is being evacuated. Again, nobody from the US Side is confirming. Can you even take any of it seriously? That's part of the problem. And that's exactly what all of this demonstrates to us about the sheer dishonor, really, upon the American people, upon all of us. We paid for all of these bombs, and we're gonna have to live not just with the consequences of what they've done, but just also with our government just casually saying that there's nothing wrong, really, with what they did. Really, the culpability lies with Trump ordered a last, you know, a very harried US Operation. And then it comes down to Hegseth and others saying, we don't care. Dust off the plans from 15 years ago and go. I also, frankly, you have to the Pentagon. You pay these guys all sorts of money. There's an entire room that's bigger than this studio where all they do is just talk about Iran war plans all day. Even when things were going well with Iran, nobody ever updated the target set.

Saagar Enjeti

I mean, that was the other thing that struck me, too, is how much money do we give you?

Ro Khanna

Oh, my God.

Saagar Enjeti

Like, what are you doing? Yeah, you know, you couldn't get anyone to go in and, hey, let's Take a look at this. Let's go check the satellites and see if this intelligence is still, you know, still up to date. And they knew that it wasn't, and it still didn't get. I mean, that is just insane.

Krystal Ball

There are guys in the CIA, there's a whole room like a tactical operations center, and all this, where all they was just look it around all day, just update all these different target sets. But then, oh, somebody didn't tell dod or they did tell dod. DOD never updated the file. Nobody updated the package.

Saagar Enjeti

Well, there was a situation like that where apparently someone had flagged that. It appeared from the satellites that there had been changes to the site, but it was in a different system and it didn't map onto this system. And this system had the flag in it of, hey, you should check it out. But then when it was go time and it wasn't done, they're like, all right, we'll just do it anyway and hope for the best. Yeah, it's disgusting. And, you know, Hegseth, part of how he ended up in this job is because of his advocacy for war criminals who had been turned in by their own comrades in arms. And Trump admires him for that. He talked about the fact that he appreciated that Hegseth was willing to go to bat for these convicted war criminals in the military. So it's no surprise that that is the culture that we have instilled here. And as I said before, also because of the bipartisan support for a literal genocide occurring before our eyes, containing the worst, most unimaginable atrocities you could, you know, that really, truly were beyond belief, beyond what anyone could have possibly pictured.

Krystal Ball

All right, we have Congressman Ro. We recorded already, but we're going to edit it in now. So let's throw to our interview with Congressman Ro Khanna and Congressman Thomas Massa.

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Saagar Enjeti

So we've got a special treat this morning in studio. Both Congressmen, part of the dream team here, Thomas Massey and Ro Khanna. Great to see you both. Welcome.

Krystal Ball

Good to see you, Sarah.

Saagar Enjeti

So you guys have obviously teamed up on a number of initiatives, but you have a new one that you wanted to bring to us today. Congressman Massie, about the, you know, Epstein transparency. Tell us what you're pushing forward now.

Thomas Massie

Well, yesterday was the one year anniversary of the introduction of the Epstein Files Transparency act that Ro Khanna and I wrote and we thought it was time to do a sequel because the first bill's been very successful. We got 3 million documents released, but there have been some dragging of feet by the Attorney General and the Acting Attorney General. And so, you know, this is to spur the next level. Specifically, the main thing that this new bill does that we've introduced is forces the US Attorney general to cooperate with state attorneys general that want to prosecute Epstein co conspirators under state law. And it turns out in New Mexico, that's where the Zorro Ranch was. You hear a lot about Epstein island. You hear almost nothing about Zorro Ranch, but it was expansive, it was massive. People were going there all the time. Crimes were committed there and some of those aren't barred by statute of limitations. And so the attorney general in New Mexico would like to prosecute those crimes. And so we're making it easier with this bill. That's one of the things it does.

Krystal Ball

What's really interesting about this is that it did create a political crisis for the Trump administration. The vice JD Vance actually was on the Joe Rogan podcast just yesterday. I do curious for both of your response, Congressman Khanna, you can start. The vice President said that it was quote nonsense that the president was forced to sign the Epstein Files Transparency Act. He said that he did it completely of his own volition, that the idea that the two of you kind of dragged them to it was ridiculous. Cuz nobody controls Donald Trump. I'm curious for both of your reaction, Congressman Connaught, you could start.

Ro Khanna

Well, in the history of the Trump administration is written and what Massey and I did will be seen as the most decisive blow to Trump that began the unraveling of his presidency. I mean no one had stood up to Donald Trump before effectively. And Trump tried everything from including intimidating Thomas, his colleagues Lauren Boebert and Nancy Mace and Marjorie Taylor Greene. Some of them he brought into the Situation Room to get them not to to support this. They adjourned Congress. They didn't swear in Adelita Grijalva. They tried everything. Then what happened? Not only did they realize that we were going to pass the act, Donald Trump realized that he was going to get probably 80 to 90 Republicans to be willing to overturn his veto.

Saagar Enjeti

Right.

Ro Khanna

And that's when he signed the act and he told JD Vance to go into the Situation Room and start the COVID But what this did, it's not just about justice for survivors, which is important after this. Now there are what, 100 discharge petitions. Now suddenly everyone is willing to defy Donald Trump and we change the entire culture in the Congress.

Saagar Enjeti

Do you agree with that Congressman?

Thomas Massie

Yeah, absolutely. I mean we dragged him kicking and screaming to signing this. I asked to be invited to the bill signing. I think I'm the first congressman who's ever got a bill passed that wasn't invited to the bill signing. I'VE never heard the Big Fat Shark. And they did it in secret, like in a room with no cameras. You never see that happen. And at one point, the White House said that it would be a hostile act toward the president for any Republican to co sign the discharge petition. And you had Jeff Freeland, who's the legislative affairs director for the president, on Capitol Hill. I saw him going up and down the street and through the halls, running around trying to get people's names off of this, trying to keep people from sponsoring it. There's no way they wanted this to happen. And then what was the fallout? I mean, Howard Blutnick, we found out that the guy who's behind Donald Trump on Air Force One and behind the Resolute desk, the guy who's always standing there, that guy took his family to Epstein island for a little picnic after claiming on TV that he had nothing to do with Jeffrey Epstein. The man was so disgusting, he would have nothing to do with him. And, you know, but what we need right now is accountability. And that's what this bill gets to. There's a couple other things the bill does that I'd love to explain. So, you know, in the hearings we saw yesterday, what was with Todd Blanche with his nomination, what was painfully obvious is he's ignoring the victims and they can't even get their own files. He's still withholding files, testimony that the victims gave to the FBI. And we know it exists on 3002 form. The victims, the survivors, the ones who are still alive, they know it's there and they can't get it. So our bill gives those victims standing in US Court to sue the Attorney General to get their own files. That's really important. The other thing it does is the doj. This hasn't been widely reported, but twice they've told us in Congress in like these little notes or memos to Congress that we're using deliberative process privilege in order not to give you some of these documents. And our bill, our original bill said you've got to tell us about your decisions on whether to prosecute or not prosecute. But they're withholding all those files. That's the nub of this, is why didn't they prosecute? People like Leslie Wexner, Leon Black, Jess Staley, people who in their own files showed that they had information on enough that at one point, Leslie Wexner was listed on an FBI document as a co conspirator in a child sex trafficking rank. Also, so was Leslie Groff, Epstein's main Assistant who helped traffic the women. So what this will do is it takes away unambiguously, we believe our first bill did anyway, but unambiguously, it says you don't have these special privileges that you can exert to withhold files. And finally, it gives Roe and I standing to go to a court, get in front of a judge and have a judge have the third branch of government adjudicate whether the executive branch is complying with the law that the legislative branch wrote and the President signed.

Saagar Enjeti

And Congressman Massie, you know you were successfully defeated in your primary. Thanks.

Thomas Massie

Successfully defeated, what does that mean? It's like a jumbo shirt from there.

Saagar Enjeti

Yeah. Never expected it.

Ro Khanna

By the way, if Trump wanted to voluntarily sign this, he should have been endorsing Massey, not campaigning.

Saagar Enjeti

Yeah. And that's the point is, you know, you cross Trump and you cross the Israel line lobby. They dumped what, $30 million in against you. Their effort, from their perspective, was successful in getting you out. But I am curious if you agree with Congressman Khanna that your efforts on Epstein were a blow to the Trump administration. And I don't think that that was your goal. That's not the way you have framed it. But it does seem like it created a fracture in the base and was kind of the start of his approval rating really beginning to fall off.

Thomas Massie

Well, I think it was self inflicted by the President. He went on TV and said, if you think there's any there there in these Epstein files, you are no longer a supporter of mine. I don't want your support. He told maga, you're no friend of mine if you still want to pursue this promise that I made. Right. So he basically fractured right in half maga and he lost Marjorie Taylor Greene on this. I mean, this was. He called her a traitor for pursuing the Epstein files Transparency Act.

Saagar Enjeti

Right.

Thomas Massie

Like I might have had other infractions like voting against the big beautiful bill or not voting for Mike Johnson. But Marjorie Taylor Greene had been loyal to the President and the only place that she deviated was on the Epstein files. He told her on the phone and she related this to me immediately when it happened, that you're going to hurt my friends if you persist in getting these files released. And so it was. I wouldn't. I don't. Roe gives us too much credit for inflicting this damage. At mit, we called this ballistic podiatry, which is shooting yourself in the foot.

Joe Rogan (clip)

Right.

Saagar Enjeti

We're trying to translate that.

Ro Khanna

The original cause.

Thomas Massie

Right. We gave him the opportunity. But also, I really think the credit goes to the survivors. And it was Roe who invited them for the first time to be heard on the steps of the Capitol, right there in front of the Capitol. We gave them a voice. There were people who had never been public before. It wasn't worth the risk to them. They came out, said that they were, you know, had been victims, were survivors, and told their stories. And I think that's what motivated our colleagues eventually to vote nearly unanimously to pass this.

Ro Khanna

You know, one thing I haven't said, one of the reasons the partnership with Massie and I works. Thomas is an MIT guy. He knows all the details. You know, you want to understand. Discharge petition, this rule, that rule. Thomas knows all of that, and you need to know all of that to achieve what we did. I helped bring the survivors and organized that press conference twice in front of the Capitol. And that changed public opinion, and that helped make sure that we could pass it. And it was the teamwork with different complementary skills, not just across the aisle, that allowed us to get the Epstein files passed.

Thomas Massie

One more thing. If the President is so gung ho to get these files out, why are they still dragging their feet and exerting every privileged they can to redact anything they can?

Krystal Ball

Well, to both of your point, you know, you met Crystal, mentioned the Israel lobby. There's been a lot of speculation about Jeffrey Epstein, his connection to Israel. The administration has officially denied it, I believe Todd Blanche, you know, in his interview with Ghislaine Maxwell, and yet the Vice President again yesterday on the Joe Rogan experience said it is clear that Jeffrey Epstein had connections to the highest levels of American intelligence and Israeli intelligence. Let's take a listen and we'll get both of your reactions.

Joe Rogan (clip)

He clearly had connections to the highest levels of American intelligence. He clearly had connections to the highest levels of Israeli intelligence. In fact, one of the interesting story, one of the interesting things the Epstein saga reveals about, and I try to make this point, one of the reasons why I'm always careful and I say there are some elements within the Israeli government who don't like our peace process. Because there are a lot of elements within the Israeli government that actually do like our peace process. They recognize that this indefinite campaign is not good for them either. And the Epstein thing is interesting because as much as I know Prime Minister Netanyahu, not a particularly popular person in the United States of America right now, Epstein seemed to be connected to the elements of the Israeli deep state that were left of center. I've always found that fascinating. It wasn't like he was super connected to the right of center of Israeli politics.

Krystal Ball

So an interesting clip there. You know, both confer well, at least, you know, he's the highest, fewest official on record to say had connections to the US Intelligence and to Israeli intelligence. Never been confirmed before either by the Mossad. Actually been denied by Mossad and definitely also been denied by the US Intelligence. But he also seems to try and to separate Epstein from the current coalition government in fleeting Israel. Congressman Khan, I'm just curious for your reaction considering, you know, these comments from the Vice President.

Ro Khanna

First of all, he's not a pundit. He's the sitting Vice President. He could release the remaining four files, he could declassify the documents and explain to the American public what exactly happened with Epstein, who he was. He should. If he believes this, he has an obligation to release the files and have a report on Epstein's tie to intelligence. And this is a standard line where he politicizes everything. Oh, they were connected to the left, not the right. But what the relevant Israel perspective.

Saagar Enjeti

But anyway.

Ro Khanna

But the relevant point is, okay, why isn't he taking action instead? He was in the Situation Room covering up at every step of the way, the release of the files and transparency.

Thomas Massie

And to some degree he's just admitting or curating what's in the files.

Martha (Kohler Cast Iron Ambassador)

Right.

Thomas Massie

We got an audio tape now of Ehud Barak asking Jeffrey Epstein, while Ehud Barak was still the Defense Minister for Israel, how am I going to make money? What's my grift going to be on the outside once I'm no longer a public official? And you get Epstein telling him, well, think of everybody who owes you something because of your public position and leverage that told him to get on the board of Palantir. Right. So. And that's all audio. So for the Vice President to admit that is no big revelation. I think it's a political admission on his part that he's being tainted. It's toxic. His association with the President and this administration that's trying to cover these things up. So he's giving you something that's already known.

Ro Khanna

Known,

Thomas Massie

but also Epstein was. He met with Obama's CIA director. Acting CIA director. Can't remember his name right now. Yeah, that's right. So obviously he was tied to the highest levels. That stuff needs to come out.

Ro Khanna

I used to take Vance seriously. Not much more concerned Massey is going to be the nominee on the other side. I mean, look, Vance was tainted with Abstainis literally running the COVID up for Epstein. He's been tainted on this war in Iran. He's Literally now cheerleading. And he's been tainted on Israel, as even he knows. So he's going out. Well, no, no, no, I'm not terrible on Epstein. No, no, no, I'm not terrible on Israel. But, you know, it's actually a contradiction to some of the things he said before he had to do Donald Trump's bidding.

Krystal Ball

No question.

Saagar Enjeti

Congressman, I'm curious, Congressman Massie, I'm curious if what you learned in the Epstein files changed your worldview at all. Because as a leftist, I'm looking at this and I'm like, oh, a bunch of billionaires showing a lot of cloud solidarity here. Very much comports with my view, although it was much more explicit than perhaps I even had imagined. You're giving me examples of like, hey, let's connect you with Palantir. Here's a country's resources you can go and exploit, et cetera. But I wonder, as a libertarian, if it shifted your view or if it changed your perspective at all, looking at some of the revelations here.

Thomas Massie

Well, I joke. I tell people I'm more of a conspiracy theorist than I was before I got elected. Now that now that they let me in the skiff and I can hear the top secret stuff, I'm like, yeah, well, that was true. But my opinion on the Epstein thing definitely has shifted over time. In Congress, people want you to solve health care, they want you to take care of taxes, national defense, all of this stuff. And so I didn't give it enough attention for the first several years. It was one of those things to me on the Internet. Maybe it's a conspiracy. Then as I started paying attention, and then particularly when I saw that Pam Bondi did sort of this spoof, almost a caricature of releasing these binders. And then I personally asked Pam Bondi to her face at a dinner, when are you going to release the rest of the Epstein files?

Ro Khanna

Just as.

Thomas Massie

And I looked her in the face, and her answer to me was, oh, there's nothing left but child sexual exploitation material, and you'd be a pervert if you'd want to see any of that stuff. And she tried to shut me down that way. And I thought, all right, there's there there, right? That's what raised my suspicion. And. And then in this last summer, they said, closing the case, no prosecutions, there's nothing here. It's done. And that's when Roe and I said, no, it's not done. And we. We filed the bill and. But that moment, that audio tape of Epstein talking to Ehud Barak, it gave me some insight into Jeffrey Epstein. That's when I decided he probably didn't kill himself. Like he had so much leverage. I believe he thought his time in the prison was temporary. Either he had enough blackmail material or he was friends with enough people that if he just sat there and didn't say too much that they would eventually get him out. And so that's the one thing that also transitioned in my mind. I went from, okay, okay, maybe this is a conspiracy that he was killed or he's still alive or whatever, to no, that's probably true. He was probably killed or somehow sprung from the jail because he had that much leverage over these powerful people.

Ro Khanna

Yeah.

Krystal Ball

Interesting. So one of the things you mentioned there is blackmail. The vice president also addressing a claim that the president is being blackmailed. Obviously, this connects to the war in Iran, which you're both against as well. Let's take a listen to that. We'll get your reaction.

Joe Rogan (clip)

What I have seen and I've looked at most of the files, is that there just wasn't dispositive evidence. And if that dispositive evidence ever existed, it was probably destroyed after 2006, 2007. Now, look again in our defense. Yes. Was there some bitching and moaning and was there some back and forth? Yes. But we eventually collected 6 million documents as part of the effort. The president, people say the president was forced into releasing the documents. Like, again, the idea that Donald Trump could not have killed that legislation, especially with the United States Senate, is a joke. He absolutely could have killed it. What did he do? He actually said, nope, we're going to release these files. He thought, you know, he was annoyed by the story. He was annoyed by the Democrats accusing him of doing things bad. By the way, like, do I think there is any. I've never seen a single piece of credible evidence that the President, United States engaged in wrongdoing with minors ever.

Krystal Ball

So that was the claim there about blackmail. It is later connected also to the war with Iran. I'm curious, you know, for both of your reactions, because the Epstein Files Transparency act becomes a political crisis and of course the war gets launched with Iran. It's impossible not to at least look at that and be like, is there some connection? Like, what exactly is happening? Congressman Kana, curious for your reaction. Action.

Ro Khanna

Well, I think they both are terrible decisions. Do I believe that he went into Iran to distract from the Epstein? No, I don't think it was that. But I think he broke a fundamental pledge of not getting into foreign wars. He got talked into conquest and he saw what happened in Venezuela and he said, okay, I can turn around the regime in Venezuela. I was opposed to what he did in Venezuela. Venezuela. And he thought he could just march into Iran and ultimately betrayed his fundamental promise to the country of not getting into foreign wars.

Thomas Massie

I know it's easy to pick apart something like a Joe Rogan interview, but I have to take issue with the fact that he said they found 6 million files. Why have they released only 3 million? And then also the vice president says he's read or seen most of them. I don't believe that. I've spent hours at the DOJ and I've barely just is like scratching the surface. 3 million files is hard to consume. And then to connect all the dots so that on its face, the claim that he makes there and then also the ridiculous claim that the president, this was something the president wanted to do or eventually wanted to do is false. If he still wanted to do it, he would direct his Attorney general and acting attorney General to just go ahead and release all this stuff right?

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Saagar Enjeti

Wanted to transition to talk about this amendment that was a big vote in the House yesterday. Congressman Massie, you offered this amendment. We can put D1 up on the screen here. Ultimately it failed, but created quite a lot of intrigue in the Democratic caucus. In particular, you are the only Republican that voted yes on this amendment which cut all funding for Israel. You actually had a narrow majority of Democrats who did vote for the proposal, which is just such a sea change in the positioning of the Democratic Party. I mean, previously the relationship with Israel was really lockstep across the board. So I'm curious for your reaction to how this vote broke down and if you're surprised that none of your colleagues are where you are right now on this issue.

Thomas Massie

Well, the reason I was able to get this vote on the floor of the House, I sincerely wanted to vote. I offered three amendments to defund foreign aid to Egypt, foreign aid to Jordan, and foreign aid to Israel. And the Republican leadership, to my surprise, allowed me to get the vote on Israel. But I think that's because they made a political calculation. I believe it's a miscalculation, but they made a political calculation that this would be a hard vote for Democrats. And it did turn out to be a hard vote for Democrats. It should have been a hard vote for Republicans because now they've all locked into this idea that American taxpayers should give weapons and billions of dollars. I pointed out in my floor speech we spend more on offensive weapons to Israel than we do on homeless veterans in the United States. And so every Republican has voted to send offensive weapons to Israel. $3.3 billion. The vote was successful, though. My litmus test. You know, we've had votes like this in the past. You get maybe six or ten people to vote for amendments like this. In fact, my vote to defund Jordan got six votes. Okay, but this was different. This moment in time is different because you can't objectively look at what's happening in Gaza and say that there's no moral hazard here for American taxpayers. 70,000 people have died in a country of 2 million people. I mean, it's incredible, it's horrific. And so. But the fact that I thought, let me just say my own secret number in my head was people were like, is how many votes are you going to get? I would say dozens because I thought I would get 24 votes and 60, if I got 60, I would have considered it a success. And 100 was beyond what I imagined we could get. But eventually Nancy Pelosi endorsed the amendment.

Saagar Enjeti

That was a shocker.

Thomas Massie

I can only say that because I lost my primary. I think part of the reason I lost my primary is Ro Khan endorsement.

Ro Khanna

Don't blame me.

Thomas Massie

But Nancy Pelosi came out for it. The minority whip came out for it, but the minority leader came out against it. So it really did split the Democrats. I think in time for the 103 Democrats and myself who voted not to send this money to Israel. As time goes on, that's going to be a better and better vote. And the people that were on the other side of that, including all of my conference, except for me, are going to regret this vote.

Krystal Ball

Congressman Connell?

Joe Rogan (clip)

Yeah.

Krystal Ball

Curious for your react. This was a major intra Democratic war. You had the House Minority Leader, Hakeem Jeffries, who voted for you, the majority whip who then of course, you know, said that they would cut to vote 8. I'm curious for your reaction here about this split within the Democratic caucus. You were an original leader on a movement like this to watch, you know, a significant portion of your Democratic caucus colleagues eventually come to your position. What does that foretell for the future of the Democratic Party?

Ro Khanna

I was joking with Thomas that we had more caucus meetings discussing his amendment than any Democratic legislation.

Krystal Ball

Wow, that's crazy.

Ro Khanna

Actually, like Sunday afternoon calls to discuss the Massey amendment and caucus meetings. But this should have been a such a simple vote. I mean there are, we have to go beyond this. But obviously we shouldn't be giving them US tax dollar aid for, for military weapons. In my view, we shouldn't be giving them military weapons to be killing civilians. And we need to be sanctioning the banks and government officials who are engaged in the settlement and work on recognizing a Palestinian state. But in my view, you had 103 folks and the new Congress, you're going to have even more and that it's going to become a very, very small minority eventually that is going to be saying let's just have continued aid to Israel.

Saagar Enjeti

It's pretty wild to see Nancy Pelosi vote for it and Hakeem Jeffries vote against it.

Ro Khanna

Yeah.

Saagar Enjeti

And Pelosi people are sharing all kinds of clips of her now saying, like, if the Capitol were to crumble, the one thing that would remain is our solidarity with Israel. And now here she is on her way out, and she's like, yeah, we'll vote to defund this. And I think she sees the writing on the wall.

Ro Khanna

She does.

Saagar Enjeti

Very savvy political operator of where things are going. I cannot for the life of me really understand Hakeem Jefferson Jeffrey's calculus here, because while there is such a split in the House Democratic caucus, there is not a split among the Democratic base overwhelmingly. It is now a small minority that want to maintain the status quo with regard to our relationship with Israel. So what were those internal conversations like? To the extent that you can share some of the details? Because it's just very hard for me to understand why any cynical politician would look at this landscape on the Democratic side at this point and say, I want to stay with this position that has like 15% support among my own voters at this point.

Ro Khanna

Well, people were saying, oh, you're gonna cut the Middle east diplomacy program. I said, by definition, that's probably one of the programs that should be cut or something hasn't worked. What happened? You want to look at government sounds good that don't work or something. But, but, but beyond that, okay, fine, you want to have those programs that was less than 1% of the, of the aid, and you could have voted for Massey's bill and then still said an amendment saying, well, we want to keep the program for Middle east peace. But I do think it's a mistake for anyone who voted this way morally, but also politically. If you look at Claire Valdez, you look at Brad Lander, you look at Miller Lot, you look at Anna Lilia, you look at Adam Hamawi, you look at the Platner before the scandals. Abdul, the driving line in these issues is the funding on Israel and Gaza. And the Democrats want to kind of whitewash that part. Oh, is Iran or. These candidates won because of affordability. They won because they wanted free childcare, freeze the rent or Medicare for all, although it matters. But the first point of the animating difference that is motivating these candidates and the energy is Israel. I mean, Milat would have been no shot to be deget to get was good on all the issues. She was for Medicare for all living wage. Why did she lose? She lost on this issue. And I just think that the political leadership hasn't grappled with that reality.

Krystal Ball

Congressman Matt. Yeah, I was coming to you because you were the only Republican voted for it. I know you speak to many of your colleagues. You and I both know you're not the only person who thinks something like this. So why do they all but like, why do they still see political utility in supporting Israel?

Thomas Massie

Because I just lost my election. I mean, $30 million and 98% of that came from AIPAC or Republican Jewish Coalition or Miriam Adelson. It was all the race against me was fueled and funded by the Israeli law lobby. And they made an example out of me. And it worked. I mean, you're getting senators who are changing their positions, you're getting House representatives, folks who are just going underground on the Republican side, not saying anything about it. But the one thing I want to talk about two things. They're trying to, they realize this is a political liability, the Israeli lobby. So they're trying to take away the transparency of this money that's being spent and they're trying to integrate it into our military budget. So it won't be a line item that Congress voted on. It'll be inside of one of these giant military omnibus type programs. And we won't even know because we'll just, instead of giving them gift certificates for Raytheon and Lockheed Martin, we'll give them the bombs from Raytheon and they

Ro Khanna

would develop them with us.

Joe Rogan (clip)

Right.

Ro Khanna

Almost integrated.

Thomas Massie

Well, that's the second part is that Section 219 of the NDAA is now, it's very toxic and I'm trying to get a vote on that to strip that. Section 219 is, I think what Rose was alluding to, which is integration of our intelligence and military with supply chains, supply lines and technology with Israel. It's a country of 10 million people. It's not even like NATO where they're at least a third of the size of us. And there might be some reciprocal arrangement that could help in a world war that's not going to help Israel can't help us in a war of a scale where our sovereignty is affected. It's only going to hurt us anyways. I'm trying to get an amendment in order to strip 219 from the NDAA. And if I can't get that done or they don't allow us to have that vote, I think they're jeopardizing the ndaa. That stands for National Defense Authorization Act. It's one of the must pass pieces of legislation like a farm bill or a highway bill that passes every year.

Martha (Kohler Cast Iron Ambassador)

Right.

Saagar Enjeti

Congressman Massey, I wanted to ask you Some about that money that was spent against you. And I think you're right. They definitely wanted to make an example of a lot of that money came from the Israel lobby. They're now trying to do a similar thing with Abdul said in the Michigan primary. On the Democratic side, I think $50 million have come in. And again, the ads have nothing to do with Israel. They're claiming he's a sexist because he one time mildly criticized Michelle Obama. I mean this is the sort of stuff that they're going with here. And I do wonder again from your perspective as a libertarian, if that changes any of your view of the ability for a democracy to coexist with billionaires. Billionaires, the impact of money in politics. What are your views there? Has that shaped your philosophy or thinking about how we handle this flood of money which is not just the Israelites big pharma, it's big oil, it's the banks, it's all sorts of interests.

Thomas Massie

Are you asking did the ass whipping I took from the billionaires change my respect?

Saagar Enjeti

I should have asked it that way.

Thomas Massie

It was a beat down.

Saagar Enjeti

How are you feeling about billionaires these days?

Thomas Massie

Yeah, well, you know, we were able to raise 20 million and so we had enough money. It's just they played dirtier than we were willing to play. They made artificial intelligence ads that showed me in a three way relationship with AOC and Ilhan Omar. And you know, people fell for those ads. They thought they were real. So again, there's another libertarian conundrum that I have in addition to campaign finance finance, which I do equate with speech. But also here's another example of speech. Should they be able to make AI ads and run them with my image in it? You have to think very carefully about the legislative solutions that you don't make the situation worse. I think I could be okay with campaign finance. That said, if you're running a congressional race, only the money, the only people who can donate are the people who convert vote in your district. Now Miriam Adelson may have moved to Kentucky.

Saagar Enjeti

She was ready.

Thomas Massie

She was.

Krystal Ball

So she'll build a casino on top of your house just to make an example.

Saagar Enjeti

I think that is interesting because I know in the past you've pushed for transparency, which I think is an important first step. But you know, at this point there's a lot of mass education about who AIPAC is and what they are, et cetera. It's not that transparency, you know, isn't there necessarily. But, but the problem is that just when you have so much Money, of course it's gonna impact outcomes. And we can see it in this vote from yesterday, too. So many of your colleagues take money from AIPAC or other similar groups. So many of the Democratic caucus. It should be based on the Democratic base. It should be overwhelming and not a problem for Democratic congressmen to vote for an amendment like that. So you can see the impact of this money in the legislative process, not just electoral.

Thomas Massie

Well, ultimately, there was a win in my loss, which is I knew they would have to spend insane amounts of money. This is the most expensive congressional primary in the history of the United States. And I knew that if they would have to spend insane amounts of money, and if they did and I lost, it would sort of prove the point that they have too much influence in our own government that the Israeli lobby does. Now, they'll argue these are American citizens or dual citizens who are donating the money. But I would still say they're operating on behalf of a foreign country, and so they are foreign agents. I think they should have to register as such. But there was a victory in it. It's really. There was a big waking up. I don't think we would have gotten as many votes on my amendment if people hadn't watched me lose because there was $30 million of Israeli lobby money poured into a little Kentucky race. But, yeah, I don't know what the solution is. And then also on these AI ads, this fall is going to be the Wild West. I got a taste of it in my own race. And these weren't online ads. These were like local Fox cable affiliates running these ads. So not a lot of people saw what's happening. But this November, both parties are going to run the most ridiculous AI ads. And if you write a piece of legislation that says you have to put a disclaimer on there, it doesn't help. That gives them a safe harbor to do anything.

Saagar Enjeti

Right.

Thomas Massie

They could show you doing anything and say, by the way, this was made with artificial intelligence. And people are still gonna believe it because people watch videos and they don't read the little stuff at the bottom.

Krystal Ball

Yeah. My last question before we start, I know we're running a bit short on time, is about Senator Mitch McConnell. Do you believe the Proof of Life photo? And do you? There's a lot of speculation that they're continuing to keep him in his Senate seat in order to prevent you from being able to run in a special primary or special election in the state. Your reaction?

Thomas Massie

Well, the special term would be less than six months now, and I'm not interested for that. I just broke news, I guess, to tell people.

Ro Khanna

You did? Yeah.

Saagar Enjeti

Now they can come clean about Mitch McConnell.

Krystal Ball

Yeah. So, Mitch, tell us what's going on.

Thomas Massie

I mean, I think the public does deserve to see somebody walk up to a podium and say something. Now, whether we can believe that in this day and age is also another question.

Ro Khanna

Could have AI do it. Yeah, right.

Thomas Massie

You know, I've said I'm gonna introduce term limit legislation called three strokes and you're out. Because we've seen this in the House. We saw one of our colleagues disappear for four months. No account, by the way. He won his primary and I lost mine.

Saagar Enjeti

Insane.

Thomas Massie

Maybe that was the answer.

Krystal Ball

And he was depressed.

Thomas Massie

Right, Depressed. Which is a catch all it could mean. I mean, what do you do when you're depressed? Maybe you drink, maybe you're doing something. I'm not saying that he did, but, but. And then we had Kay Granger who was basically had dementia and was still a congressperson for many months.

Saagar Enjeti

She's the one who was in a memory care facility.

Krystal Ball

Yes, yes, I remember that.

Thomas Massie

I remember that.

Saagar Enjeti

That's insane.

Thomas Massie

Yesterday we marked up a bill in Judiciary called the National Fossils Act. And I asked him if this was about senators.

Ro Khanna

This is what happens when you don't have to run for re election.

Saagar Enjeti

That is actually my last question. It's kind of for both of you. You know, we get, every time we do an ama, we get a question. Do you think that Thomas Massie and Ro Khanna could run for president together and have some bipartisan kumbaya? I've been skeptical of that because I know you guys collaborate on a lot, but I also know there are a lot of ideological differences. There would be hard to sort out. But what are you thinking about your future? Is politics still in your future? Senate run, presidential run? What are the sorts of things that you, your podcast, all sorts of things.

Krystal Ball

Please don't do the lab.

Thomas Massie

Well, I'm not gonna rule anything out. How about that? But the political terrain right now in Republican primaries is uphill for me. The war in Iran, this doesn't get reported enough. Is 70% popular among Republicans. Still is. And that's in Kentucky, where you have Rand Paul and Thomas Massey. In Oklahoma, where you don't have us, it's 80% popular, according to the pollster that I used. So, you know, there's still. And then you saw the vote on Israel sending the foreign aid people. Republicans say they're conservative, they want to send money overseas, but then they have a little asterisk and they say except we'll give Israel as much money as they need, you know, and we'll empty our coffers for that. So I do have a few political positions that I think are going to be right in four years, eight years, maybe it only takes two years. But right now I'm against the grain of where you can win certain races. So I'm gonna watch for the terrain, see if it changes. Do I eventually get the high ground or not. But in the meantime, I am just so happy to have my life back. I should send Miriam Adelson a thank you card.

Saagar Enjeti

Sometimes these things work out in a way that you don't expect expect. So appreciate both of you guys for coming in. We've been wanting to have you here. We have Ro all the time. We always appreciate your time too. But to have you both together.

Krystal Ball

We really are sir. Exit interview before you go, you'll come back here.

Thomas Massie

Yes. And Ro and I have decided to run against each other.

Ro Khanna

I thought you were going to endorse my reelection.

Thomas Massie

You did that for me? We see what that happens.

Krystal Ball

The dynamic duo themselves. Thank you both. Seriously.

Saagar Enjeti

Yeah, I'd love for you to come back so I can fight with you more about libertarianism. Okay.

Krystal Ball

Yeah, we'll do do it.

Thomas Massie

Big transfer news today.

Joe Rogan (clip)

Who's moving me to the couch with Domino's?

Thomas Massie

Best deal ever since they just added stuffed crust.

Joe Rogan (clip)

Any pizza, any toppings now with stuffed crust for $9.99.

Thomas Massie

It's a long term contract with no release clause.

Joe Rogan (clip)

Only 9.99 yeah, that sounds like the move. I'm heading straight to dom.

Krystal Ball

Price is higher for some locations.

Saagar Enjeti

Excludes Excel and specialty pizzas.

Thomas Massie

Select this offer from 6:15 through 7:26 online only.

Krystal Ball

Size availability varies by crust type max

Thomas Massie

7 topping 6 for Anna New York style crust. Minimum purchase required for delivery prices participation Delivery area charges made for theory Capture

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