Dan Sonor

Over the past couple of years, Call Me Back has grown into something much bigger than we ever expected. A place for clarity, context, and honest conversations at a time when those things can seem hard to find. That's what Ark Media is all about. Building a truly independent voice, which means no one shaping what we say or how we say it. To help support our rapidly expanding operations, we created Inside Call Me Back our Members Only feed. If Call Me Back has been meaningful to you and you want to be part of what we're building, I hope you'll join us. You can subscribe@arc media.org or through the link in the show Notes and to our insiders. Thank you. You are listening to an ARC Media podcast.

Rahm Emanuel

I disagree with the Democratic Socialists. I'm not for defunding the police. I'm not for open borders. I'm not for eliminating prisons. I'm for turning red to blue. I don't give any win. There's no medals. There's no third grade trophy for effort. Turning blue to cobalt blue. I don't believe in that. Those are all policy people. I also believe because I win elections, I also believe in passing health care and passing minimum wage and you can't do it on your strategy. I don't support these people and I don't want them in the Democratic Party. And there's a reason you're not invited because your socialism that, as we would say in Chicago, that dog doesn't hunt.

Dan Sonor

It's 12:30pm on Sunday, July 12th in New York City. It's 7:30pm On Sunday, July 12th in Israel as Israelis just got word of the official announcement of the commencement of Israel's next election election season. The elections will take place on October 27th of this year. We are also absorbing the shocking news of the sudden death of Senator Lindsey Graham. I'll have more to say about Senator Graham and his legacy on Call Me Back in the days ahead. Lindsay played an outsized role in American national security and geopolitics issues that I spoke to him about quite a lot and sometimes worked with him on projects. He was a champion of the US Israel relationship and influenced many key decisions, often working with presidential administrations of both parties. He died after returning from his 10th trip to Ukraine. That was his 10th trip since the Russia Ukraine war began in 2022. I recently got together with him for lunch just a few weeks ago. As always, he was full of insights and witnesses. Lindsey Graham was an original. May his memory be for a blessing. Turning to our guest today, Rahm Emanuel has spent 30 years in the rough and tumble of US politics. Campaign advisor to Democratic presidential campaigns, Congressman, Chairman of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee, Chicago's Mayor Obama's chief of staff, a man by his own account went toe to toe with Benjamin Netanyahu. Last week, Rahm Emanuel went back to Israel and gave what has been characterized and reported in the Israeli press as a tough love speech to Israelis at Tel Aviv University. There's a link to that speech in the show description. In his address, Rahm Emanuel said without question, the alliance, meaning the U. S. Israel alliance, cannot stand or survive as it has been. He said Netanyahu has led the country to, quote, a dead end, turned it into a regional pariah and called the pursuit of Greater Israel, meaning Israel having maximalist biblical ambitions for the territory it controls, including annexation of the west bank and possibly even beyond. He said that ambition of Greater Israel as destructive and fanatical his words as the chant from the river to the sea. He morally equated the the two. The reaction was instant. Just to give you one example, the Free Press's Peter Savodnik called it, quote, a master class in a genre he has little patience for. Peter wrote, to survive today's Democratic Party, Jews must apologize for the Jewish state. Close quote. Rahm Emanuel is a son of Israeli immigrants to the United States. He has not ruled out running for president in 2028. So which is it? Tough love from a lifelong ally trying to save a relationship, the US Israel relationship before it's lost, or tough luck dressed up as principal for a party base he needs? Rahm Emanuel joins me right after this quick break.

Daniil Hartman

Hi, I'm Daniil Hartman, president of the Sholem Hartman Institute in Jerusalem.

Yossi Klein Halevi

And I'm Yossi Klein Halevi, senior fellow at the Shalom Hartman Institute.

Daniil Hartman

What's more important? To be feared by your enemies or morally true to yourself?

Yossi Klein Halevi

Should Israel strive to be a nation among nations? Or should it accept the fact that it is now a fortress apart?

Daniil Hartman

What do Israelis and Diaspora Jews owe each other? If you're Jewish or a friend and

Yossi Klein Halevi

ally, these questions have been gnawing at you these past few years.

Daniil Hartman

For some of you, like for us, these questions have been keeping you up at night. And for some, they've been simmering in the background, waiting for answers.

Yossi Klein Halevi

But dilemmas don't always have clear answers. What they do deserve are honest and respectful debates.

Daniil Hartman

And as it happens, Yossia and I love to challenge each other to get to the bottom of things.

Yossi Klein Halevi

We look at current events through a lens that speaks to us most deeply. A Jewish lens.

Daniil Hartman

So if today's Jewish dilemmas are on your mind, tune in to our conversation on For Heaven's Sake, a partnership between ARC Media and the Sholem Hartman Institute.

Yossi Klein Halevi

You can find For Heaven's Sake on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Daniil Hartman

See you there.

Dan Sonor

And I'm pleased to welcome back to the podcast after a whirlwind trip through Israel and Europe, Rahm Emanuel. Rahm, thanks for being here.

Rahm Emanuel

Yeah, thanks for having me.

Dan Sonor

Before we jump into the conversation about your speech in Israel, you and I exchanged messages this morning after the shocking news of the passing of Senator Lindsey Graham, who's no stranger to this audience. He's no stranger to you. You work closely with Lindsey over really like decades, I think. So just. Any thoughts or reflections to share?

Rahm Emanuel

Look, I mean, I obviously don't agree with Lindsey, but I also know he is a patriot and he cared deeply about what he was doing. Now, my three kind of interactions, he was designated by Senator McCain and I was designated by Senator Obama. We negotiated the rules around the debate in the 2008 presidential and that's really actually where we really got to know each other. Not kind of know of each other then. The second was after the election. President Obama as president elect invites John McCain. Lindsey comes. We're in Chicago in a room, map out a couple things that we could work on, etc. One of them was expanding the national service bill. Probably the biggest kind of day in and day out was Senator Carl Levin is chairman of the Armed Services, Lindsay serving on it. And the president had called for the closing of Guantanamo. Didn't happen because of the executive order. And we worked through very difficult the closing of Guantanamo. What we were going to do with I don't remember. I think it was like 70 the prisoners. And on the president knew. I mean, it was happening at my conference table in the chief of staff office. And we worked through every issue. We had an agreement what it was going to take to get 15 Republicans, etc. And the rubber hit the road. When the attorney general did not like or wanted or pursued the chic in a civilian court that would go to New York, Lindsey said, look, it has to be a military court or I can't get the 15. There was a legal interpretation that the lawyers felt strongly about.

Dan Sonor

And just when he said he couldn't get the 15. You mean 15 Republican senators.

Rahm Emanuel

Yeah, 15 GOP. That was the linchpin. We knew what we'd get on the Democratic side. But if you wanted to get to 60, you needed 15 Rs, right? And it came down to the trial. And I'm like, guys, you may be right on the law, but I'm gonna tell you there will never be a civilian trial of the sheik in the city of 9 11. It just will not happen. From a security standpoint, a political standpoint, you're literally throwing salt in an open scab wound. The TR trial never happened. The kind of coalition we built to do the closing of Guantanamo and that chapter on America's a very dark mark on America. And Lindsay, to his credit, every meeting him, Carl Levin sat at the office many times over lunch, all three of us working through the document that would finally not only close the door on Guantanamo, but also close the book on that chapter of America. And, you know, you'd be calling each other even after meeting 10 minutes later on the ride back to the Capitol.

Yossi Klein Halevi

And.

Rahm Emanuel

And that's the type of thing you want to see get done. And there are deals that are made, and there's deals that slip through your fingers. And that was one that slipped through the fingers, but it was a real good process that didn't have a happy conclusion.

Dan Sonor

Okay, Rahm, in terms of happy endings, I want to go to a region that is not known for happy endings. And I want to talk about the speech you delivered in Israel, which generated a lot of attention. And before we get into this speech, I guess the first question I want to ask you is how October 7th changed the way that you think about the threats that Israelis are facing. Meaning not the thousand days, thousand plus days of war fighting that followed October 7th, but the reality that Israelis realized they were living with now, the new reality on October 7, did it change any of your assumptions?

Rahm Emanuel

Oh, how could 1200 people being killed, raped, and sexually mutilated, and children shot in front of parents and parents shot in front of children, and 250 people taken hostage. And not military. Civilians. So not only military, I meant. And if it didn't. You're not attuned to the world. And I would say, look, I don't know if you know this, but early days, there are women lawyers who stepped forward to document all the sexual violence. I met with them on this recent trip. I reached out. If it's not October 10th, it's very early, because the United nations walked away. The very international body we stand for walked away, refused to do it. I met with the women because if we stood with them, I had three or four zooms with them, gave them resources, talked about the next chapter. Now that they issued a report but that was an anecdote, an example of this wasn't just military to military or terrorist to military. People were raped, sexually abused, men and women as a instrument of political and military power. So while I believe strongly in peace and I believe that is a part of accomplishing security, I believe in Ben Gurion's A nation among nations. Israel has enemies that are existential, that are on their border. And strategically. This wasn't the whole strategy that had been adopted, not just by the prime minister, but sharpened, of what's called mowing the lawn. Obviously doesn't operate.

Dan Sonor

So many in the Israeli security establishment will argue that the way, even though it's not officially proclaimed the way Israeli security doctrine changed after October 7th is there was a sense before October 7th that threats facing Israel could be managed. Mowing the lawn you mentioned, and deterrence, I mean, just like deter. And where things have changed since October 7th is Israel's done managing the threats and it's put a lower premium on deterrence. And it's put now it is in the mindset, secured. The doctrine is go and remove the threats. If there is a real threat to Israel, no matter where it is, you go and remove it. You don't manage it, you don't try to deter it. That's the big change in assumption. Does that resonate with you? Do you understand it?

Rahm Emanuel

Of course. Yeah. Yeah. But here's Dan, let me. So let's tease this out.

Daniil Hartman

Yeah.

Rahm Emanuel

Having spent eight years of my life in a situation room, three years as ambassador. Look, a country has four tools in its security toolbox. Military power, political persuasion, economic, state, caf and cultural attraction. I believe both our country, the United States, but specifically Israel in this case has let three of those atrophy fast forward. You know, there's a major piece of legislation to get the Haradim to serve because Israel is stressed out after three years of war to fulfill that strategy change. The prime minister does not want to do that because it would violate his coalition. Now pause. Syria, for the first time in 50 years in my life, you don't have an Assad running Syria. You have a new president who says publicly Israel and Syria share an enemy in Iran. That's his words. Two, Syria is a transition route for weapons from Iran to Hezbollah, the bigger threat. Three, the president of Syria has called for a security agreement with Israel where you now have gone past the 74 line of the Golan Heights. You have troops and resources dedicated there. You have bombed the military Ministry of Defense. You have not activated a political, military and diplomatic channel. You can get a security agreement and maybe make the Syrian government in the northern part that affects the northern Galilee more secure and not a drain on your resources when you deal with Hamas south, Hezbollah north. I jokingly. But I mean this. I'll give you my AT&T calling card. Use it. And the president of the United States met with him, Lindsey Graham, who just passed away. Call for maybe we should reevaluate how we think about Syria. And my point is, I believe firmly that you don't manage what they thought they could do. You have to eliminate. I happen to see the Syrian front as complementary to what you're trying to do in southern Lebanon. Complimentary to actually isolating Syria, dealing with the weakness of the proxy mentorship by Iran and there's no effort. Why? Because it would be bad for his coalition. Well, that's not how you do national security. And so to me that's an example. Look, they've made a security change. We're not managing. We're not actually going to let you get near the border and throw missiles when you want, et cetera. And you're worried about your civilian population. People in Kira Ashmona can't move people in Galilee. But Jordan is secure. And to the east, Egypt to the south is secure. Frees up resources. You can make Syria to the north secure. Nothing I'm saying isn't also being advocated by elements of the IDF and the Mossad. But because of politics domestic and because of the prime minister being vulnerable politically, he has refused to exercise a responsibility to secure Israel's national security. They are a principal ally. And Dan, I say this. I was just in Berlin, as you noted, and I served in Japan. Massive support among the United States for our allies in Asia, specifically Japan. The long pole of our Indo Pacific Strategy. Massive bipartisan support and both in the House, Senate and in the country for NATO. Our principal ally in the Middle east is in the low 20s. That is not a sustainable course. And all I'm saying is the status quo, which I happen to think has left Israel more vulnerable, where all you do is pursue a military option, is not sustainable unless we bring a change to it that boosts not only your security but boosts your support in the country so we can pursue an alliance, as I say in the speech, is worth strengthening. I happen to think this crap, and I call it crap, the river of the sea is the. You are talking about the ending of the Jewish people in the Jewish state. Unacceptable. I happen to think the Greater Israel is also crap. As I said, both of them are fantasies chanted by fanatics. I'm offering an idea out of your pariah status that I think adds to your security. Own elements of the Israeli security establishment are for and you've done nothing with it because of politics at home and because of a prime minister that refuses to exercise and is allowed to act free the three other aspects of the national security toolbox, much to what we do. But we're a bigger country. We can afford to be stupid. Unfortunately, I want to talk specifically because

Dan Sonor

as I mentioned in the introduction, Israel is now formally going to elections. October 27th. There'll be elections. So let's imagine there's a new Israeli government and that. And let's just, you know, speculative here because he's doing very well in the polls. Let's imagine Gotti Eisenhott is the new Israeli prime minister.

Deborah Pardes

And.

Dan Sonor

And you are have a say, as you said in the speech, if I have a say in future US Policies. Let's imagine you have a say. Let's imagine you're the President of the United States, you're the Secretary of State, or you're in some position in a future U.S. administration while Gotti, you're looking across the table from Gotti Eisenkot. And a big focus of the speech is you need to pursue Israel. You need to pursue with energy and rigor and political risk, as you're saying right now, you need to pursue some form of Palestinian statehood. And Eisenhat looks at you and says, rahm, there is no Israeli constituency for the establishment of a Palestinian state. And that Rahm, he would say, I presume I ran for office on a mandate that echoed opposition to Palestinian statehood. And my government will fall if I accept US Demands for a Palestinian state. Given some of the other parties that are oppositional to this government and oppositional to Netanyahu that would populate a future Israeli government, but are strongly opposed to Palestinian statehood. What do you say? Not to Bibi Netanyahu, but if that candor gene is activated, what do you say to Prime Minister Eisenhower?

Rahm Emanuel

Well, first of all, I just gave you an example of not showing just a profile to the world or to your country of how to bring security to the northern Galilee, that one of the reasons for the starting of the Six Day War was because the northern Galilee was being bombed. You have a government there. The rest of the Arab world, your allies in the Gulf part, are embracing. Iran is in a bad place because of what's happened in Syria. You have an opportunity. So that's one Channel two I met with. I just Want to say one thing. I met with Israel aid where I met with Mohammed from Ramallah. He's a doctor working with Israeli doctors, working with Jordanian medical teams. They're actually sponsored by the Lebanese government providing healthcare in southern Lebanon. That too is part of your toolbox now as it relates to what I call the 23 state solution. In 2013, the Arab League announces that if Israel and the Palestinians come to some agreement between security and sovereignty or self determination, all 21 nations of the Arab League will recognize and create full diplomatic relations with the state of Israel. So Israel would get full diplomatic relations with not just Egypt, Jordan and the Abraham Accords, everybody. And B, they would also have to put their shoulder to the wheel and stand up a Palestinian Authority that doesn't reject sovereignty and answers with terrorism. They have to be one, as I say in the speech, recognize the Jewish connection to the land of Israel. Two, stop rewarding terrorists who kill Israelis because they're Jewish. Three, Most importantly, stop teaching your children to hate Israelis. That was the condition. I laid it out in the speech. Let's just fast forward. If you're doing hypotheticals, if Israel found Arab League 21 countries recognizing it, one, you get out of the pariah status, your support in Europe and in the United States and Canada gets stronger. Three, that is a good day for Israel and a rotten day for Iran. A horrible day for Iran. So if you're not persuaded by the merits on one side, you're lethal existential threat Iran. That is exactly the reason Hamas moved. And you know this, Dan. They moved because they were fearful Israel and Saudis would come to an agreement and they would be left on the sideline Here you're offering it in a way to break out of your pariah status that I think is unsustainable. And if he told me that, I said, okay, this is what we're going to do. This is how you align Arab desire, Gulf desire for stability with Israel's desire for security and with the Palestinian desire for sovereignty. You align the politics of stability, sovereignty and security to work forward. Now, do I think it snaps like that? No. Did I say that? You know what was possible under Oslo? Y plantation what the President Clinton did at Camp David or olmarkt offered in 2007 or 2008. Do I think that's possible? No. Reality has changed. But do I think, and I say this for everybody that says no to the Greater Israel on the West Bank. They want everything there. Nobody travels to Nablus, Ramallah, Jericho, any of these cities. This isn't in the aftermath of Oslo, you don't even travel there anymore. You've basically divorced yourself with a wall. So therefore, let's make this work as a strategic advantage rather than a strategic liability. And I don't believe you isolate the relationship to a single act. There's a Syrian front, there's the Lebanese front. You have the best government ever there in 30 years that is committed to making sure that Hezbollah does not operate as an independent body and using Lebanon, which is what Iran wants, as literally a launching pad onto the northern Israel. So there's opportunities across the spectrum, but you cannot have the military be your toolbox. There are elements in Mossad, Shin Bet and the IDF and all the other think tanks that actually agree with what I just said. There is support and as I will just say, is one piece like your newspaper. Nahom Bernadette interview cover headline Israel Are you listening off of the It's a three page. There are elements within the IDF that support this strategy. I am not saying anything against Israel's security interest. It's another way to think about it. It's another way to prosecute it. This is in behalf of the not only their security, more importantly the alliance.

Dan Sonor

What about the right of return for Palestinians to come back into a sovereign Israel?

Rahm Emanuel

We all know the thorny issue is right of return and we all know the thorny issue is Jerusalem. Echud Barak and Omar Labor Likud all had solutions. That's what the part negotiations are about. You try to prescribe that beforehand, you're never going to get negotiations started. That's what the party.

Dan Sonor

Okay, so the 23 state plan, as you said, includes 21 Arab states. Today, certainly in a post October 7th world, the three countries that have the greatest influence with the Palestinians and with the most radical elements among the Palestinians are Iran, Turkey and Qatar. Now, two of those three countries are not part of the Arab League. That's what I mean about these assumptions, these kind of Pre and post October 7th assumptions about how to deal with this issue. Two of the three most powerful countries in dealing with the Palestinians and have supported the Palestinians in a failed state in Gaza have been Istanbul and Tehran.

Rahm Emanuel

Okay, Dan, the Prime Minister Netanyahu is the one that worked with the Qataris to put $6 billion into Gaza and they knew there were tunnels there. I wasn't for that. I was for working with the Palestinian Authority and others were for working with Palestine. The government of Israel purposely undermined the pa. The PA did a good job undermining itself because of its corruption. I wasn't a party to that and a lot of other people. That was a sponsored initiative by the Netanyahu government.

Dan Sonor

In fairness, I don't think anyone in the Israeli security establishment knew about the depth and the breadth of the tunnels. Did they know there were tunnels? Absolutely. But I think the Israelis were shocked by what they learned post October 7th.

Rahm Emanuel

Okay, but that still was. You were funding Hamas because you wanted to say to the world, we don't have a Palestinian partner. You never tried. Third, just for a record, the 2020 agreement before Trump leaves, Mr. Greenblatt works on him. Netanyahu agreed to 70% give back. I think it's 75 on the west bank agreed to it. It's part of the agreement that they announced towards the end of the Trump 1.0. No, Turkey's not part of it. And I do believe that if all 21 nations of the Arab League recognized Israel, it would be Iran's worst state. Do I think they're going to try to undermine it? Like October 7th was part of this? Yeah. That's why I'm for something that strategically changes the landscape against Iran and for Israel and for our Gulf allies. And don't forget, while you and I are talking about just this, Iran's long term strategy is to get the United States the hell out of the Gulf. Our bases in Qatar, our bases in Bahrain, our operations in both Kuwait and our capacity also in the uae, let alone Saudi Arabia. I happen to think this pursuit on February 28th of this military operation actually aided and abetted the Iranian initiative. I'm trying to figure out a way that the United States doesn't fulfill Iran's objective to get us the hell out of there. Okay, so all of this works simultaneously, not just as one isolated area. Now do I think Israel has a challenge with Ankara and a challenge with Tehran? 100%. Does that mean you sit here and say nothing else? Okay, therefore, let's keep this up. As I want to say, as I said in the speech, we just, you and I as Americans just celebrated 250 years. You would never have taken the bet that a country built on self governance, liberty, equality and freedom was going to survive 250 years. In 22 years from now, the country that my father fought for, its existence and creation will be 100 years old. Do you think in your heart of hearts, dan, that in 22 years Israel occupying the West Bank, 70% of the Gaza pariah, not only in the region, but pariah in the United States and in Europe is a sustainable model? You don't like my model. Fine. But you got to offer something else besides the status quo. Because it's driven Israel into not only a pariah state in a wall where they are today more strategically or militarily secure and more strategically, politically and diplomatically isolated. I happen to offer a plan. It doesn't hit snuff. Great. But don't tell me for 22 years you're going to have a country with more Nobel Prize winners that can't go to conferences, a country that was once known as a startup nation can't participate in. You have people for the first time in the last two years leave Israel rather than stay. That's the promise of your future. And the sustainable model for the next 22 years is a status quo that ain't going to work.

Dan Sonor

But Rahm, it seems like you're arguing that Israel's isolation is solely Israel's fault. Do you ever take a step back and say this reaction to Israel having to fight a defensive war where it's fighting against enemies with whom it has no territorial disputes, who have decided that Israel needs to be eliminated. And it's like fighting this war in an impossible set of circumstances. And the international community in these various fora excoriate Israel. And you're like, sounds like what you're saying. What you said in the speech is Israel, you created this problem.

Rahm Emanuel

Look, Israel's security threat is real. It's not imaginary. As I said many in my career, I was for the ceaseire in October 6th. I was for, I think it was up to 200,000, 20,000 out of the Gaza. Were Palestinians working in Israel, earning an income? I don't blame Israel for October 7th, not at all. Israel had a right to not only self defense, but to establish its deterrence. I was not for, and I was against the world not documenting the sexual violence and rape of both men and women. That happened because it was Jewish. It was okay. The United nations should be embarrassed. And those in America that were celebrating on October 8, what happened on October 7? As I said in the speech, you are morally bankrupt. I have a few other words I like to say, but I won't say it. But I do believe not just October 7th. There are a lot of things, as I said, that predate that now. I blame the Palestinians for corruption. I blame the Palestinians for passing up three opportunities. As Abba Eben said, Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity to make peace. I believe Israel's security is accomplished by doing what Yitzhak Rabin always said. You fight terrorism as if there's no peace. And you make peace as if there's no terror. Israel has chosen not only before October 7th, but definitely after October 7th to let the other component of that go atrophy. There is a massive opportunity, I think, with Syria, and you'll never know till you test it. This is not a theoretical discussion between Cannes and Rahm on a podcast. You have a chance to pull Syria out of the Iran orbit into an anchor it. Which is not a good day for Turkey either. If you're trying to strategically challenge Turkey is a good opportunity. We need to work on that to bring security to the state of Israel. I get why you have an operation about deterrence and safety bombing the Ministry of Defense in Damascus. Really? You mean the northern Galilee is more secure today because you bombed the Defense Ministry. There was nothing happening there. And here he can. He's willing to be a partner in clamping down Iran's weapons route into Lebanon into Hezbollah. And now all I'm saying is there's a blind spot in this government. I do blame them for having a blind spot and refusing to engage. I do not believe a small country in 9 million can sustain itself as the pariah. Do I believe people were blaming Israel before October 7th? 100%. Which is why even people in the government. Netanyahu quit. There was no day after plan for Gaza. That's not new between Dan and Ralph. That was said in real time. And B, because there's no day after plan because the politics didn't work for the prime minister. You now got occupation and you now got isolation.

Dan Sonor

Do you think any day after plan authored and birthed by Israel would have been anything but dead on arrival in the eyes of the Palestinians? I mean, I'm trying to imagine Israel coming forward with this is Israel's plan. Everything you're saying in your speech and what you're saying now is you're almost. You don't want Israel to object to stand in the way of your plan, but you really want the Arab world to own the future of Gaza, as you put it. The adults in the room. You call them the adults in the room, right?

Daniil Hartman

Yeah.

Rahm Emanuel

Here's the thing. And I talked to President Clinton about this. I talked to Dennis Ross about this. I talked to others. It doesn't mean that they're experts, but people that have been around this. Hillary Clinton, if you had a fault about Oslo, and this plays out in Camp David with Arafat and Echod Barak, and it plays out with Omar and Abbas. But the Palestinians said to the United States, you deliver Israel and the Arab League said to the United States, you deliver, not only Israel, but the United States was obligated to get The Palestinians take 98% of what they were offered. And my analysis is, and this is where I believe politics has to be aligned with the policy rather than work against it. You in the Arab League want stability. In 1993, you were a Petro state. Today you're a finance capital of the world, Abu Dhabi. You're part of the global economy. You want to be part of tourism, sporting events, etc. You want to be part of the AI world. You want stability. This is the price. You own standing up a Palestinian partner that can make an agreement and hold it with Israel. You own the responsibility to not only do that, but to make ensure that they're a security partner, not a launching pad for terrorism and for war in the future. You have this idea, Great. I'll take you on on your idea. Here's the price of your idea. You don't get to propose it and sit on the sidelines and then throw spitballs. This is your price. Your price. There's no partner. There was no partner after Oslo. There was no partner after Camp David and Echod Barak and President Clinton. There was no partner after Omar. Three times you got offered 98% of what you wanted. I have yet in 31 years to get 98%. Okay, I don't get 9%. They were offered 98%. And what? And not only did they reject it, as I say in the speech each time you offered them the sovereignty they sought, which I happen to think is legitimate, others may not. Your answer after rejecting what was offered was violence. And to the Arab League, you turned a blind eye to not only the corruption, but political, not just negligence, malpractice by the Palestinians. Now, I met with a Palestinian doctor who runs the CEO of the largest hospital in Nablus. There are voices inside the Palestinian Authority and Palestinian Territories that want out of this hammerlock. So what I know from the 90s versus what I a has transpired and B, what needs to be improved and changed to make the politics and the policy work in simultaneous. I say what I say about the isolation, the prior status, because I think it is a strategic threat to the security of Israel. And as I said in the speech, which is that that isolation has created a condition where the world doesn't even believe you have a right to fight for your existence. And for a country where I, not only my father, my uncle that were named after, who lost his life trying to create the state of Israel to come to the place where we have been in 78 years as a Jewish state, a Jewish democratic state, where not a, your legitimacy, B, your legitimacy and the capacity and your right to exist is being questioned. What in the inventory has to change to create a different dynamics? I don't give the Palestinians a pass and I don't give the Arab League a pass. I and I will be honest, I don't give the United States a pass. I am harsh on Netanyahu because I actually think he is the steward of a set of policies that has created this isolation and diplomatic and political and strategic weakness of the state of Israel by a set of policy decisions that didn't have to be taken like a day after plan, like not calling Syria.

Dan Sonor

We'll be right back. Hi, it's Dan Sonor. Israel is heading into one of its most consequential elections, and this time the whole world is watching closely. Hot takes and daily noise are pretty much guaranteed to populate your media diet. But as with any election, there's a deeper story about identity, religion, democracy, and what kind of country Israelis want to live in. That's why ARC Media launched Israel Votes, a special initiative across. Call me back for heaven's sake. And ARK News Daily. You'll hear from the leading candidates shaping the race along with analysis and reporting from two of Israel's leading political analysts, ARC Media contributors Nadavael and Amit Segal. Join us for Israel Votes, your front row seat to the election that could define Israel's Future. Go to arkmedia.org votes to watch and listen. See you there. And we're back with Rahm Emanuel. All right, Rahm, one of the other issues you hit in the speech was the alliance, meaning between the US and Israel, and I'm quoting here, cannot stand or survive as it has been and needs, quote, significant changes and a new direction. That's a big claim. What change are you specifically referring to?

Rahm Emanuel

Well, two things I have not said. In addition to the 23 state peace solution, I offered an economic path IMEC, the India, Mideast Europe corridor. And the reason is they're complementary is both economically and politically. Israel would not stand apart, but be a part of the most important trade route and also the Middle east, which fulfills Ben Gurion's desire to be a nation of nations. And so we have to work as a country on the security front of Israel that isn't just waging war, isn't just whether it's in Gaza, whether it's in Lebanon, whether it's in Syria or whether it's in Iran, that the other aspects that make up your security toolbox, rather than atrophying, have to be strengthened and deployed. And I happen to think Syria is a classic example of this. And move. But the reason I also think, and I did say this in this speech, I said US Financial support or taxpayer support for weapons purchases will end now. One, in 2021. Michael Oren, the Israeli ambassador, said the same thing five years ago. Two, the prime minister said now his timeframe is 10 years. Mine is now.

Dan Sonor

Yeah, but he's, he, yeah, just Netanyahu is saying that now he wants to end the relationship, that part of the relationship. Right.

Daniil Hartman

Yeah.

Rahm Emanuel

Well, okay. Three, in the speech, I said that we will maintain the qualitative edge, Israel's

Dan Sonor

qualitative edge, just for our listeners to understand. You mean Israel's strategic qualitative edge relative to its adversaries in the region.

Rahm Emanuel

A classic example is, you know, the president, United States just said we're going to sell off. He wants to didn't move forward, sell F35 to Turkey. That's a direct threat. I didn't do that. The Trump administration did that or is proposing to do it or wants to do it or expressed its interest in doing that. And I don't think, unlike others who want to go through the inventory, you know, the Senate can't pass a budget. You're going to go through an entire catalog of weapons and decide one country what they can. You're an ally, not a dependent. That's what I said. An ally pays full price. An ally abides by all the laws and all the requirements with our weapons systems that would apply to the state of Israel. We will maintain the qualitative age. But the $3.8 billion that Israel has been accessed of American taxpayer subsidies for the weapons won't happen now. I was in the room, Dan, when Barack Obama signed off on funding the preliminary research billion dollars for Iron Dome. I believe the Iron Dome has paid its dues to the civilians of Israel and their security address. Now, I also support a country that understands its weapons are supposed to protect its civilians, unlike others who use their civilians to protect their weapons. There is no moral equivalence there, and it never will be for me. But that has to change as part of the paradigm. Number two, you do have a government in the state of Israel today, and ministers in that government who are betting not just settlers, others creating violence on the west bank, burning property and seizing those individuals will be sanctioned. The government officials will be sanctioned. And if you decide to Go and pursue a set of policies that undermine the potential for a 23 state solution. The banks and the construction companies would be part of being sanctioned.

Dan Sonor

Meaning if you're going to sanction entities that build what you call illegal settlements.

Rahm Emanuel

Right.

Dan Sonor

Now, how do you define illegal settlements? Is it illegal settlements according to the Israeli government or the standard that's used in kind of international circles?

Rahm Emanuel

Well, today they don't enforce any of them.

Dan Sonor

Okay, but which, but I'm just asking you because. Because what you're basically saying is there are a lot of American companies that would get wrapped up in that there's banks in Israel like Bank of Polem and whatnot. That if, if you say settlements include just going into East Jerusalem or just going over the Green Line, that's.

Rahm Emanuel

No, no, no. Well, right now there's what was possible of agreement of a line in both 1993 and in 2000 doesn't work. But you can't, you've just had. I'm doing this by memory, so I'm not going to be held to this. I think in the last three years there's been a little over a thousand settlements been announced. I could be wrong on that number and I own, I own being wrong, but I, I'm doing this by memory. And so to me there are ones that are clearly provocative to ending the capacity or that would disrupt and allow only enclaves rather than a Palestinian territory and a future self determination. And to me those are examples. But again that's examples. I happen to think again pursuing Syria, pursuing a 23 state solution that takes up as to the Arab League's own proposal. Game on. Here's what you gotta do. And America would use its political persuasion with all 21. You gotta come to the table, you gotta own a Palestinian Authority, you gotta step up an adult in the room that can't use terrorism as part of their instruments against Israelis. And third, pursue an economic agreement that puts Israel at dead center of the most important trade route in the world between India and Europe with the Middle east being important and those allies that would also be important to that are friends of Israel.

Dan Sonor

Okay, so much of what you're saying about Israel is Israel. We're, we're willing to do all of this in a sense for you. We expect some things from you. And I hear in what you're saying, like your frame is Israel gets a ton out of the relationship with the United States, which I agree with. But if someone asked you what does the US get out of its relationship with Israel, how would you answer that? Question. Because it's not just a one way relationship.

Rahm Emanuel

No, it is not a one way relationship. First of all, I happen to think an operable democracy in the Middle east is something the United States gets. My question is about what's going on. I was not sponsor of trying to, in my view, diminish the judicial branch as a separate government. It's what threatened Israel, it's what degraded its deterrence. That was on this government. That said, I think having a democracy is one of the. And being a sponsor of the United States traditionally of holding up democracies and being allies with democracies, not autocrats. It's a good thing. Two, all these companies in Israel is one of the most important countries for companies listing our nasdaq. We financially, economically gain from that. And there's technology. All our major companies, and I don't mean major, but if you go through the seven big ones, all have major research operations in Israel in the technology.

Dan Sonor

The major tech ones.

Rahm Emanuel

You mean the seven Nvidia, Amazon, Apple, intel, you know, and plus just take intel, they have a major fabrication entity in the state of Israel, let alone the R and D that's going up.

Dan Sonor

And the CTO of Nvidia is in Israel. He's based in Israel there. Yeah, there's over 500, close to 600 multinationals with operations in Israel.

Rahm Emanuel

I would like to note the head of the category in Apple, I think it's like number three, which is for the hardware, is an Israeli Arab that got educated at a Technion.

Dan Sonor

Right, Technion University. Right. Like Israel's mit.

Rahm Emanuel

Yes, MIT and Stanford all combined. So there's a lot to be on the military side. One of the big challenges now to the United States, but also to all our allies is, you know, getting out of this economic paradigm where a drone is $10 and we're spending a million dollars to kill a $10 drone. I'm using $10 dramatically. I know it's not $10. Israel is promising technology on using laser lights, which would be $0.2 versus $100 million or $10 million or whatever. You know, basically the economics in equation here or inequality here, it would fundamentally alter. And some of their technology on the defense side massively helps the United States from a security standpoint. So there's economic, there's political and there's military. We benefit from that as a country. I know the benefit of having a democracy. That's your principal ally. Nothing I've said, and I say this, you can disagree with 100% of what I said and that's okay with me. By 8 o' clock in the morning, I disagree with 100% of what I said. Okay. This is out of care for the lions. This is out of care for America. Dan, we have fought two wars in the Middle east costing us trillions of dollars. Well over 50,000Americans have lost their lives or are maimed for life. America's idea that is going to militarily be engaged again in the Middle East, I don't think is politically sustainable. That is not good, and I'm not for that. But you have a country that's an ally in a region America wants to walk away from. Now you tell me, since everybody under 30 is. Last time I checked, unless there's some new medication Eli Lilly's offering, we'll be 31 pretty soon. We'll be 34 soon. They're going to hold views about a country. Now, the one thing I know I've run for office, I've been in five national campaigns trying to conduct a foreign policy when your country is against it. Kind of hard. I'm trying to change that dynamic so America can continue to be an ally for Israel and Israel can continue to be a member of the international community, not the pariah. Now, people in America or in the American Jewish community or friends of Israel may not want to hear that. Great. You offer me something different than the status quo because I didn't drive this car into this wall.

Dan Sonor

Okay. But it does seem that you are caught between two worlds. And when I say you, I mean you may or may not run from for president. And I think people who think like you and share your worldview and that are engaged in Democratic Party Democratic politics are caught between two worlds and those two meaning if you care about Israel also. And what I mean by that is, on the one hand, you have an Israeli public that's skeptical of a lot of the things you're talking about. Not all of them, but a lot of them. They're skeptical of the viability of a peaceful Palestinian state and a Democratic party in the US that is skeptical in many corners. But some of the most energetic corners, they're skeptical of Israeli security concerns, to say the least. One voice in Democratic Party politics, the highest profile figure in Democratic politics today, Zormadani, my mayor, doesn't just want a Palestinian state. He actually rejects the idea that there should be a Jewish state at all. So how do you persuade your fellow Democrats that they must accept the legitimacy of the state of Israel?

Rahm Emanuel

Okay, a couple things. Rule 1 of politics taught to me by Bill Clinton Nothing doesn't beat something. The status quo is something I'm going to beat it with.23 state solution, breaks Israel out of pariah status, puts it integral into the most important economic corridor. Now, B going back to my candor, Gene, I met with your mayor, said to him, now look, we were meeting as one mayor to a former mayor or one mayor elect to a former mayor. How do you govern a city? You know, New York's like Chicago. This is a big city where politics is business. We run through it. And at breakfast I told him, you're your father's son. I'm my father's son. I'm going to tell you right now, if you think you're going to have a river to the sea which means the elimination not just of the Jewish state, but the elimination of the Jewish people, over my dead body. And there'll be a lot of people standing in your way. It will never happen. I told him what I said in the speech in front of the Israeli public. There will also never be a Greater Israel. It will be the end of Israel. I sat there at breakfast, I said, these are fantasies chanted by fanatics and you're a fanatic chanting a river from the sea. It will never happen. You're taking on the entire Jewish world now. The difference. And I said to him, the difference between you and I is I actually believe in trying to accomplish some form of self determination, some sovereignty. I actually have actually all the pains and earmarks and scratch marks. When I started working for President Clinton, I was 162 and £250. You working on this peace process. I said, but Lisa, I believe in something that you don't believe in. Tell me once how your river to the sea gives Jewish people a homeland.

Dan Sonor

What was Mamdani's response when you said what you said about the river to the sea?

Rahm Emanuel

He said, whatever you do, don't say it on dance in your show. Hey, listen, he was in bit breaking news. I didn't persuade him and he didn't persuade me. But he heard it directly and he heard it forcefully. And I said to him, you will never have your day because you understand that it's not just a chant. It means the end of the Jewish Democratic State project. And whether Chicago's my home or whatever, that is not happening. Your father may like that, but my father fought for the existence of it.

Dan Sonor

But you, Rahm, you are drawing a moral equivalence. It sounds like between the river to the sea and the Greater Israel rhetoric. And I just want to say first of all the Greater Israel rhetoric I also find extremely problematic. I also think it represents a narrow slice of, of Israeli life. That is not the case for the critics of Israel and the courses around the world that are criticizing Israel. That represents the totality of their message. Is Israel off the map? Most Israelis, the overwhelming majority of Israelis, as you know, do not believe in any kind of quote, unquote, Greater Israel.

Rahm Emanuel

Here's what you won't answer, Dan. You're right, except for one thing. It's not just rhetoric. The Greater Israel settlers who don't get held in front of justice for terrorizing Palestinian people, burning homes and farmlands. That's not rhetoric. That's the execution of a policy inspired by the inspiration of a Greater Israel. You have government officials that actually perpetuate.

Dan Sonor

You're talking about Ben GVIR and Smoltrich. I just want our listeners to know who you're referring to.

Yossi Klein Halevi

Yes.

Rahm Emanuel

So it's. If you said to me it was just rhetoric and shrug your shoulders, I would say, well, I disagree with it. And rhetoric has consequence. You actually have government officials who are perpetuating the violence.

Dan Sonor

Well, just to be clear, they were pushing for a permanent occupation in Gaza. They were pushing for annexation, some kind of annexation in Gaza and the West Bank. And when Netanyahu agreed to the Trump deal In October of 25, they got none of those things. No permanent occupation, no displacement of Palestinians and no annexation.

Rahm Emanuel

Well, Dan, since you wanted to get into the land of politics, Netanyahu, when he formed this government, said to everybody, don't worry, I'm going to manage it. He is now a hostage from them. They run him and that's why he's gone. Not just 60% of owning Gaza, up to 70%. And there's discussion, having been back from Israel openly, people talking about putting the settlements back. And that's why you have a prime minister that doesn't actually prosecute the violence on the West Bank. Whether you believe what I believe in about self determination, sovereignty, actually because of its actions, is perpetuating it. And the United States can't be a party to it. It is not good for our security.

Dan Sonor

Okay. In 2015 and 2016, you were very critical of Republicans for looking the other way, as you put it, when trends and cracks were emerging within the Republican coalition that ultimately culminated in what you said was Trump's takeover or hijacking of the gop. You famously told Republicans, don't act surprised. And I do think we are watching right now, trends and cracks in the Democratic coalition that are alarming and I do hear a lot of Democratic leaders trying to put lipstick on the pig of what we see, and I'm talking specifically now is the alarming rise in anti Semitism. It is not. I'm seeing primary after primary. I saw it in New York state over the last couple of weeks. We've seen it in Colorado. You know, we've seen it in Pennsylvania. We could be seeing it in the Senate Democratic primary in Michigan in August. And these are races, Rahm, where the distinguishing issue is Israel and the Jews. It's not like, oh, it's just one of many issues. It is the issue that turbocharges the candidacy of these candidates that are winning. And I guess my question is, does that alarm you? And will we be saying a year from now or two years from now to Democratic leaders, don't act surprised, you look the other way?

Rahm Emanuel

Yeah, well, I've said this publicly before. I disagree with the Democratic Socialists. I'm not for defunding the police. I'm not for open board. I'm not for eliminating prisons. I actually think there's a place for violent criminals. I'm for turning red to blue. I don't give any win. There's no medals. There's no third grade trophy for effort. You turning blue to cobalt blue? I don't believe in that. You want to pass the last minimum wage pass when Nancy Pelosi became speaker and I had something to do with winning the House back when we won not only in 06, but then another 21 seats in 08. That was the majority that gave President Obama the ability to make AC8. You want to do something red to blue. And my new color, navy blue, all these navy women run into flip seats. That's our color.

Dan Sonor

But you're arguing that it's a losing strategy. And I get it. I hope you're right. But at a principal level, at a principal level, doesn't it upset you? What's going on?

Rahm Emanuel

Wait a second. I just told you I don't agree with you on defunding the police. That's a policy. I told you I don't agree with you on open borders. That's a policy. Those are all policy people. I also believe because I win elections, I also believe in passing health care and passing minimum wage. And you can't do it on your strategy. And I don't. And I've said it before and I'll say it on your show. So I don't support these people and I don't want them in the Democratic Party. And I also then And I will talk politics because politics counts. There are seven states, 500,000 voters across those seven states that have determined 2016, 2020 and 2024 presidential election. Does Ossoff want you in Georgia? Does Cooper want you in North Carolina? Those are two swing states. Does the governor of Arizona want any of you in a swing state? No. And there's a reason you're not invited. Cuz your socialism, as we would say in Chicago. That dog doesn't hunt. There's no dogs and there's no hunting in Chicago.

Dan Sonor

Right, I figured. All right, I mentioned we got a bunch of emails with questions for you, so I'm going to read one of them. It's from a woman named Ella from Ramat Aviv in Tel Aviv, which is outside of Tel Aviv. She writes, rahm, I have protested against this government. She means the Netanyahu government. I've protested against this government for years. I was marching almost every Saturday night during the year of the judicial coup. After October 7, I was protesting the government to bring the hostages home. Members of my family, including my kids, have been in miloim, which is reserve duty, so many times I've lost count. While this government provides exemptions for haredim politics, meaning the ultra orthodox that you were talking about before, you, Rahm, do not hate this government more than me. But after everything we've been through, for you to call on this government or the next government to rush to create a Palestinian state, as though that will solve our problems, will only put my kids serving at even greater risk. The answer to October 7th cannot be that Israel now must figure out how to create a Palestinian state. How do you respond to her?

Rahm Emanuel

She's 100% right. I think it's on the Arab League to create a Palestinian partner. Just like I said in the speech, it's not on Israel. I agree with that. And it's not on the United States to deliver Israel to the Palestinians as they sought in camp David in 2000, where Arafat walked away from 98% and then bombed. It's not. Omar offered a similar plan, not 98%, but a similar. And you turn and Abbas rejected it. I don't think it's on Israel. I think it's on the 21 nations that make up the Arab League that offer this idea full recognition of the state of Israel that fulfills Ben Gurion's notion of a nation of nations. And that's why I say game on. You want it, you own it. Get in here, get your hands around the OR and start pulling because you're sitting on the sidelines. And the more you sit on the sidelines, the more disruption is going to be to your economic prosperity in the future of Israel. And I also believe, and I'm not to shortchange two things to her and I honor her protests. I don't want to see where the reserves are basically all mobilized non stop over three years. I can only imagine is with a father with two children in the US Navy now, reserve status, the pressure emotionally on a parent, I don't want that for anybody. But I know that not breaking out of the paradigm you're in and fulfilling what the prime minister has done would lead just to that. I'm offering different ways to achieve what every parent wants to see their child grow up and blossom in reaching all their full potential. What we made as a mistake in the United States is never challenging the Arab League to put muscle behind the words. And I called him out for sitting on the sidelines. And actually probably the worst thing is not whether you agree with this or that of the Netanyahu. I'm being clear. The Arab League truly just basically paid lip service to the Palestinians to calm down their streets and never did anything for them. The people that turned their back on the Palestinians, I don't think are the Israelis. I think it's everybody, all the other governments in the Arab League. And true to my candor, I said it out loud and I said it to their face. You're not going to get away with that. So if you want stability, that's what you desperate for, so your countries can economically prosper, here's your equity. Roll up your sleeves and get to work. It is on you, not on us.

Dan Sonor

Rahm, the speech, the way it was characterized in Israel was tough love. And I guess my question is, given your ties to Israel, your unapologetic Jewish identity in the US and given where politics is going and the alarming rise of anti Semitism in segments of the Democratic Party is like there's tough love and then there's like tough luck back at home. And the tough luck part may override your ability to implement a tough love strategy, which is there are segments within the Democratic Party that don't want to hear you or from you as the voice of the future of the US Israel relationship. How do you react to that?

Rahm Emanuel

Two things. One, don't lose sight of the love part of the tough love. My name is Rahm Israel Emanuel. I'm born on the same day that Israel is declared a state. I care deeply about the country from family history. I don't ever run away from it. Never do. I happen to think what I'm saying is in you may disagree with the policy prescriptions, but it's not set out of tough luck is set out of how to preserve your security and how to make sure America's security is preserved. Are there elements in the party, I happen to think this, and I think it's shortchanged by media in America. Israel has a problem in this country and it's heightened demographically. Are there strong voices in the Democratic primary process, in the Democratic coalition or people that think they're Democrats? Turbocharging yeah, I've spoken out against them and I've also proposed a set of ideas and I've said it to their face and their leader of that operation, Mayor Mandani, I said it right, too. So I believe what I'm offering. And based on the reaction of elected officials, this is a place that people will gravitate to because it's proactive in achieving something. Doing more of the same and expecting a different result, as Sigmund Freud said, is the first sign of insanity. And so I'm not into tough luck. I don't prescribe the idea that this is a sustainable path or B, you're on your own. And as I said to those who may perpetuate and may say that somebody like you, a Jew, no, my faith is not your problem. The fact that American people have lost faith in America, that's our collective problem. And if you want me to change my faith, don't vote for me if I decide to run because I'm not doing it. My faith is what guides me morally. It's what guided me to make sure that 10 million kids have health care that don't have it. My faith is what guided me to make sure 40,000 children in Chicago got free pre k that never had it. My faith is what guided me to make sure that 20,000 kids earned free community college. So work with me on the fact that a lot of Americans have lost faith. But if you think that for one moment I'm changing my religion, go find somebody else. Your vote's not that important to me.

Dan Sonor

All right, Rahm. Thank you for that. And thank you for this conversation.

Rahm Emanuel

I've ruined another Sunday for you, Dan. I apologize.

Dan Sonor

No, you haven't. No, you haven't. It was a spirited conversation. I would expect no less. Thank you for doing this. And you know what? I want you back on.

Rahm Emanuel

This is a family meal at the Emanuel house. Welcome to dinner.

Dan Sonor

Yeah. If people want a window into a Jewish Shabbos dinner.

Rahm Emanuel

This is the only window you need. I used to say to my mother, you love Ezekiel more than you love me. She goes, no, I hate you all equally.

Dan Sonor

Exactly. All right, take care. Thanks for doing this.

Rahm Emanuel

Yeah, thank you.

Deborah Pardes

I'm Deborah Pardes, the host of ARC News Daily. What's happening in Israel and the Jewish world right now matters, but it can be hard to keep up, let alone make sense of it all. That's why we started ArkNews Daily. Every weekday morning, I walk you through the most important news, give you the context you need, and let you know what to look out for next. I don't try to convince you of anything, and I don't waste your time. On most days, I'll be in your ears for about 10 minutes or less. Then you can move on with your day, hopefully a little bit smarter than before. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts or follow the link in the show notes. I hope to see you tomorrow.