Grainger Narrator

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Muriel Wilkins

Hi, everyone. I'm Muriel Wilkins and this is Ask Muriel. Anything from Coaching real Leaders in these episodes, my producer Mary, and sometimes some of my special guests that come on will help me field questions that have come in from the Coaching real Leaders, community leaders, listeners like you, or that come up in my client work today, as I mentioned before, is Mary. Hey, Mary.

Mary Dew

Hello. I'm back.

Muriel Wilkins

You are back. Back with a bunch of questions hot off the press. Mary, how do you pick the questions that we're gonna go through?

Mary Dew

Oh, that is an excellent question, Muriel. You know, we've been working together for a number of years now, and so I have a good sense of kind of the range of topics that you're an expert in and the kind of things that we get from people who apply to be on the show, people who actually make it on the show, people in the community that you talk to. So I really try to make sure that we are asking relevant questions, things that feel like they're kind of in the zeitgeist, in the ether. And I want to make sure that we're thinking about different levels of leadership. You know, there's so many things under the sun as a leader that you can be worried about. So I want to make sure we get kind of good mix in there.

Muriel Wilkins

All right, well, wow. Gave us a behind the scenes look.

Mary Dew

There you go. Bts

Muriel Wilkins

at the magic that you create. Great. All right, well, then let's dive in. Yeah.

Mary Dew

Are you ready for the first one?

Muriel Wilkins

Yep. Let's go.

Mary Dew

Let's go. All right, so this question. I'm a first time manager of managers, which comes with its own challenges that I'm trying to wade through. But what I'm finding most tricky is that I'm now in charge of someone who I consider a friend who also wanted this role, but obviously they didn't get it. Because I'm in the role, things feel a little awkward and I'm not sure if it's me, him or there's something else going on. So. So what should I do?

Muriel Wilkins

Me, him or something else going on? Probably all of the above.

Mary Dew

Combo combo platter?

Muriel Wilkins

Yeah, I mean, you know, doesn't everybody love a combo platter? Maybe not, maybe just me, but it kind of gives you optionality when you have a combo platter. Look, I mean, the reason why I say that with all seriousness is every dynamic is co created, meaning as soon as it's relational, it's not just you. And therefore there are a lot of contributing factors beyond you around what the dynamic is. And that said, the only thing that you can control in this dynamic is you. So I would have a couple of questions for this individual. And actually before the questions, I just want to acknowledge that can be a bit of an awkward situation, meaning you're friends with someone. You know, it kind of reminds me of like when my kids were applying to college and their whole friend group and then one of them would, you know, they both would apply to the same school or when they would both try out for the same sports team and then one of them would get in. Or more recently it was like, you know, that they're in college. It was like the sorority and fraternity. You know, one would get in and the others wouldn't. And so this is something that happens, right, where even though we are friends, we don't all get the same things, the same results. And it can if we allow it to test our friendship. Particularly if the tension or the awkwardness or whatever it is that you're feeling is left undiscussed. Right.

Mary Dew

Okay.

Muriel Wilkins

We sort of try to just sweep it under the rug. So I want to acknowledge that it can be as awkward or again, whatever description you overlay it with as you allow it to be, in terms of how you experience it. And so the first thing that I would suggest to this individual is, or actually just congratulate them on is that they're even aware of the dissonance that they're feeling, that they're feeling like something is off and now they have a choice. Do they want to respond to that feeling of off ness or are they just going to make believe it doesn't exist and keep it moving? Those are two choices. And so they want to think about, quite frankly, what would they like the dynamic to be? That would be my question to them. Fast forward. You are now this person's boss. That's a fact. What would you like this relationship to be while not ignoring that the work structure, the work formation of the relationship has changed? Like, you cannot ignore that. You can't make believe that you're still peers because you are not. You also can't make believe that the other individual did not get the role. They did not get the role. You can't make believe that you didn't get the role. You did get the role. Those are all facts. What you have to be careful of is making assumptions around how you think the other individual is experiencing it. Even though this individual might feel like it's awkward, they have to be careful of now thinking that their friend direct report also feels awkward about it. We don't know. And that it's uncomfortable for them or that they're experiencing things in the same way. So again, going back to what is it that I can control? So the things that you can control are your narrative about the dynamic meaning, oh gosh, this is awful, right? That's one narrative. This is awful that we now feel this way and our friendship is never gonna be the same again. That could be the narrative or, or rather there's another narrative you could give it, which is, man, isn't it great that I still get to work with my friend? And assuming again, I'm making assumptions, assuming this is a high performing individual who was in a position to get this role, right? Like maybe there's opportunity there. I'm excited that we're both going to get to work on this and be complementary to each other. In what way can I help help this individual? In what way will they be able to help me? Right? That's a different narrative than the oh my gosh, this is the end of the way that things were. So one is be careful of the narrative that you're giving it and choose the narrative that you would like to give it that's more aligned with the type of relational dynamic that you need to have. I think secondly, my question would be, what is the conversation that you need to have with this person that you haven't had yet? And I can't sit here and say this is the conversation that you need to have, but I would suggest that there may be a conversation after you have the Conversation with yourself, which is the narrative that you now have. The second conversation, which is the conversation with the other. And it may start with a better understanding as to how this direct report friend is experiencing the shift. You don't know. So have a check in. Name the elephant that you feel. Name your elephant. Don't assume that your elephant is everybody's elephant, but name your elephant in the room, which is, look, you know, I know that you wanted this role too. I wanted it as well. You know, I'm the one that ended up in it. I'm not sure how you're feeling about that, but I'd love to hear if there's anything specifically that you're feeling about this with open ears. Now, I. I'm suggesting this because they gave the grounding that this person was a friend, right? Like if they weren't a friend, if they were a frenemy or an enemy. I may suggest a little bit of a different entry point to the conversation, but I would leverage the fact that there is an established relationship and not necessarily a friendship. But it sounds of trust, if there's trust there to begin with. The entry point to the conversation is very different than if there is no trust. Right. So give the trust and give the history of the relationship some benefit of the doubt. And then I would probably offer, depending what this individual says, you know, offer that you both co create what it looks like moving forward, meaning come up with some rules of engagement. Right. How do we want to interact? I remember I had a situation where it was a little similar where I was going to start working with somebody who had been a friend, not a coaching client, because I don't coach my friends, but somebody that I was gonna be working with. And we proactively had a conversation around how are we gonna handle our friendship in the workplace? And we decided like, we were actually gonna keep, for different reasons, some very strict boundaries to the point of if you're inviting me to something personal, do not use my work email, like send me on my Gmail. Right? Cause we just wanted to keep it split. And we also even agreed that when we are with our friend group, our larger friend group, we, we would not talk about work. We wouldn't talk about it. We would make time when we talk about work and then we would have specific times where we do not talk about work. And that was very helpful because not so much because we came up with the agreement, but because we had expectations that were aligned and therefore we could not misread what the other was doing. So I would suggest that maybe these two individuals co create what this dynamic can look like and experiment with it together. And I do think, and this is something really important, what I would tell this individual as well, is don't wait for the other person, the friend, the direct report, to bring it up. Because you know what? You're the leader. You're the leader, okay? Not say this other person can't lead, but what you have in your control, again, is to offer it and to drive this and see how they respond. And if they respond in a way where they're like, not really interested, well, then you have your answer in terms of them not really be interested in engaging in all of this, and you. You manage it accordingly. Right? But I think the place to start is acknowledge your own narrative, recalibrate what your internal dialogue might be, align it with what you want the relationship to be, and then have the external dialogue, which is the discussion with the individual. Have you been in this type of situation, Mary? Yeah.

Mary Dew

So I'm really glad you mentioned trust. So this question brought up for me much earlier in my career and being kind of on the flip side of this, where people who were friendly got promoted and became sort of, you know, management the man, whatever it was. And what I've seen happen from the flip side is the pendulum almost goes so far to the, like, I have to act a certain way now that I'm a manager, and there's such a divide and a boundary that I, A, sort of miss my friend, but B, that trust goes away, and you're sort of like, well, now they know stuff that management knows, and they're not gonna be transparent with me, so they're not gonna protect me. And it created a lot of these feelings. And I think as I got older and then I managed a team, the thing that I always said to myself once I started managing other people who would sort of bring complaints to me was, you know, I have been in your shoes. I've done your job. You haven't been in my shoes. You haven't done my job. And it gave me a different sense of, you know, I understood better why people felt like they had to put that wall up when they became a manager and they had to act a certain way. And it's. And it is tough. I think figuring out ways to maintain trust are really important. So that was. I've seen it happen from the other side and always been kind of critical, but I also understand why that behavior has to change.

Muriel Wilkins

Yeah, yeah. In any types of relationships, when the structure of it changes, which is what this is, right? The structure has changed. The form of it has changed. Unless you can explicitly say, oh, because the structure has changed. Here's what's going to change about the dynamic or the intangible parts of our relationship, the trust, the energy, et cetera. What is going to change and what is not going to change? Because I think we assume, oh, if the structure changes, then the essence of the relationship changes. And that doesn't always have to be the case. You know, you have a young child, right? As your child ages, you know, becomes

Mary Dew

older, he's not going to, he's staying the same age. It's not happening.

Muriel Wilkins

Ah, the story of the relationship, Mary, will change, but you know, the essence of it, the love you have for your child will not change or will grow. I mean, it may change a little bit, but it's still there. It's not going to go away. Okay. If the foundation is strong. And so I think, you know, not to not say that it's exactly the same in the workplace, but I think when we look at it relationally, again, just because the structure changes doesn't mean it can't. The essence of the relationship can't survive. So I would really encourage both of them to approach it from a standpoint of not either or not. We can either be friends who are peers or not friends who have a direct report boss relationship, but more problem solved together. For how do we have an effective boss direct report relationship and, and have a friendship at the same time? What would that look like for the two of us? And I suggest that they problem solve it together because if I were to come out as a coach and say, and here are the ways that that could look like, that would be my definition of. Right.

Mary Dew

You don't even know what their friendship

Muriel Wilkins

is like exactly, rather than, you know, rather than theirs. Also, they need to be mindful of everyone else too, right? Because again, depending how close the friendship was, there may be some assumptions that everybody else has like, oh, okay, well, so and so is now going to get, you know, favoritism because that was their, you know, BFF or whatnot, right? Do we even say BFF these days?

Mary Dew

Yeah, I was going to say there could be some smack talking. And then I was like, maybe we don't say that either.

Muriel Wilkins

So I think being conscious, that doesn't mean you have to change everything. Just being aware of. And that may even change the way that they decide they want to show up as again friends direct report boss relationship in the workplace, depending how much they want to pay attention to that. But those are all choices that they have and decisions that they'll make. Running a business means you're always reachable until you're not. The minute you miss a call or a text, potential customers are on to the next and a competitor might be the one to pick up. That's why today's episode is brought to you by Quo, spelled Q U O the business phone system built so you never miss an opportunity With Quo, all your calls, texts and voicemails live in one place, so anyone on your team can pick up a conversation, see the full history and respond fast. It's the number one rated business phone system on G2, trusted by over 90,000 businesses who rely on it to stay reachable and and look professional every day. Set up in minutes on any device, keep your existing number and add teammates as you grow. No it, no hassle. Quo's built in AI agent handles after hours calls, answers questions and even books appointments so you never miss a lead. Even when your team is offline, money is on the line. Always say hello with Quo. Try quo for free plus get 20% off your first six months when you go to quo.com Muriel that's qU-U-O.com Muriel starting a business is a huge deal. You need confidence, planning, a support system, and so much more. It can be easy to sit on a great idea for a long time because it can feel so overwhelming to know where to start. Luckily, Shopify can make things a little simpler, giving you all the tools you need to launch, included and ready from day one. It starts with building the website using Shopify's templates and AI tools, which help you build a polished, professional and effective site. No coding required. Their tools make checkout a breeze not just for your current or potential customers, but on your end as well. You can rest easy knowing the process is already optimized to give you results. Plus, if any issues arise, Shopify's built in AI Assistant Sidekick is ready to help you build, troubleshoot and keep your business moving forward. And because Shopify handles so much in the setup and checkout process, you have time to focus on growing your business. All you need is the idea. Shopify handles the rest. Start your free trial at shopify.com coachingrealeaders start your free trial at shopify.com coachingRealeaders we've all been there. You've scrolled for weeks to find a perfect pair of jeans, new suitcase or living room rug. Then boom, it finally pops up in your feed. But the journey isn't over yet because the checkout process is still clunky. If you don't have your credit card in hand, the purple pay button is the answer. It allows all of your information to be saved, making checkout as fast and easy as a tap of your screen. Now just imagine what that pay button can do for all your customers. Shopify is your commerce expert with world class expertise in everything from managing inventory to international shipping to processing returns and beyond. What if people haven't heard about my brand? Shopify helps you find your customers with easy to run email and social media campaigns. And what if I get stuck? Shopify's always around to share advice with their award winning 247 customer support. Tackle all those important tasks in one place. From inventory to payments to analytics and more, everything is all in one place, making your life easier and your business operations smoother. See less carts go abandoned and more sales go with Shopify and their shop pay button. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com coachingrealeaders go to shopify.com coachingrealeaders that's shopify.com coachingrealeads

Mary Dew

so this question is. I recently made a big mistake at work. I was writing pretty negatively about a coworker's initiative and their motivation behind it. So sort of between the lines, that person in an email and I accidentally included some people who should not have been included. Where do I, where do I even start? How do I begin? With the damage control. And listen, if we haven't done this, we've had nightmares about doing this, right? Like the accidental CC is a real thing.

Muriel Wilkins

The accidental cc or the accidental send reply all.

Mary Dew

Yeah.

Muriel Wilkins

Or the accidental auto. What is it when like it auto

Mary Dew

fills AI is not making our lives better.

Muriel Wilkins

You're thinking you're sending it to Mary do and no, it went to marry somebody else.

Mary Dew

God, the worst.

Muriel Wilkins

Ooh, okay. I feel like a little anxiety for this person. So the question is, how do you respond to what you've done? Right? Because you can't go back and change it. The email retraction did not work.

Mary Dew

The unsend window is closed.

Muriel Wilkins

The unsend window is closed. Or it's outside of the organization. Who knew, right? Like for me, the unsend does not work if it's outside the organization. I'm like, these are the people that I don't want to see it. What are we talking about here? We need to fix this. This outlook.

Mary Dew

We can send rockets to space.

Muriel Wilkins

I probably don't know how to work it. Really. There probably is a fix And I don't know how to work it. So people send me the tips.

Mary Dew

My advice is just get a new job. Just leave. Well, never show.

Muriel Wilkins

This is big. Like, who were they talking about? They said a co worker. Okay. I'm assuming it's like a peer or drift report and not the boss, which would make it even another thing. But the same rules of. Okay, let me. Let me say what I think here. So one is, I appreciate that they're calling it a mistake. And I think the first thing that I would say is, yes, own up to your mistake. Own it. Own it. The worst thing you can do is not own it. So I think that when people make mistakes that have an impact on others or do anything, whether it's a mistake or not, where they see that, oh, this impacted somebody else negatively or it wasn't really what I meant to do, but it happened, a lot of people will jump to, you know, oh, apologize. I actually think there are two other A's that we need to pay attention to beyond apologize. Actually, there are three other A's. I'm with A. So four A's, including apologize. The first is you have to accept that this happened, okay? Accept that you were the cause of this email. You wrote the email. Accept that it had the impact that it had. Accept that, you know, it went to the people that you didn't mean it to go to, but you did send it to those people. Accept what? Does not accepting sound like creating a story as to why it's okay, why it actually wasn't you, right? You didn't mean it. Okay, it's fine. But it happened. So accept the but it happened part. Right? You didn't mean it and it happened. Most people stick with the I didn't mean it. So you have to accept that. And that is all you before you do anything out there. The second A is acknowledge. Acknowledge not only to yourself but to others that this happened and this is the own it. Right? Be able to go and say, I sent that email. My bad. It was me. It's the hi, yes, it's me. I'm the problem. Taylor Swift moment or Cardi B, I'm the drama, okay? I did it. I own it. I acknowledge that it's me. And I acknowledge not only the intent or the fact that it's not what I intended, but actually, more importantly here, I acknowledge the impact that it had on you. So it's not if it made you feel a certain type of way. It's I acknowledge that it did make you feel a certain type of way that's different. So it's owning responsibility. That's the acknowledgment. Own your responsibility. I think the third is apologizing. It's not just I'm sorry, it's the acknowledgment. And an apology is, I don't care which way you cut it. An acknowledge is, I am sorry that that happened. If you mean it, right. If you don't, then you won't. But then understand the impact it might have on the other side. The apology without the acceptance and acknowledgement doesn't go very far. But the acceptance and the acknowledgement without the apology also has a different quality to it. So decide what it is that you actually want to do. And then the fourth A is action. What are you now going to do about it?

Mary Dew

Right.

Muriel Wilkins

Are you going to take any action out of this? And in this situation, I don't know. You know, I don't know the details of all this, but what's the action? Do you want to go talk to the other people and say, hey, like that wasn't meant to be spread like that? I'd appreciate it if you don't share it with other people. Is it that, you know, maybe I misunderstood whatever it is. I don't know. I don't want to put words in this person's mouth. But is there any action that you can take as a response to your mistake? And here's why mistakes are going to happen. What matters more? I mean, a lot of mistakes matter and what can make a huge difference of the result and the impact of that mistake is what you do with it. And the action and the actions are what can you do in response to the potential damage that was created? But the action is also around what you learned from it. Is there anything that you're going to do differently? And can you show as part of reinforcing the acknowledgement that, yeah, there's something that you will do differently moving forward? And maybe in this case it's, you know, what, what I've learned from this is if I have an issue with you, I. I need to have a direct conversation with you rather than talk to the other person. Maybe it's also, you know, if I have an issue, I probably shouldn't put it in writing in an email. I probably should have a conversation, right? I don't know. But share what the action is because people do want to know. Not only do you have some remorse, but they also want to know that you won't do it again. And if you can't show that there is some action behind it. How do we have confidence that this won't happen again? So those are my four A's around making mistakes. Again, depending on how grave the mistake is and the impact on others. But I think the, you know, acceptance, acknowledgement, apology, action, give enough to work with. That at least makes me feel like you're being conscious around how you handle and respond to the situation in a way that makes what's in your control and you taking 100% responsibility for your side of it. Now, is that a guarantee that the person on the other side won't be upset? Absolutely not. Yeah, it's not a guarantee. You've got to let them own their reaction. And the goal here is not for them to not be upset with you. The goal here is not for them to feel a certain type of way. No, you can't control that. Let them own their own reaction and response to something that occurred to them. All you can own is your response, which is what we've been talking about.

Mary Dew

Yeah. And just quickly, I like the specificity of which you talked about apology and action I think are great because my mind is running a bunch of different scenarios. You know, this could be a situation where someone was just saying, I don't think this project's a good idea. But they didn't feel like they could say it in a meeting because the culture is passive aggressive.

Muriel Wilkins

Yeah.

Mary Dew

Or it could be them actually saying really mean stuff about someone. Right. So the devil's in the details. And I think it's also sort of I should have just said this to you directly versus saying it in an email. But I stand behind the idea. I don't think this project is a good idea. Is a different conversation than I said something really catty about someone in an email.

Muriel Wilkins

Exactly right. Were you talking about the thing, the problem or the person?

Mary Dew

Right.

Muriel Wilkins

You know?

Mary Dew

Right, right.

Muriel Wilkins

We've all done it. I know sometimes I'm just going to fess up. I know there have been times when I've been sending a text or sending an email about someone or something and I know intuitively I'm like, Muriel, you would not want this person or other people to see this email. I should listen to that intuition, which is don't send it. Yeah, right.

Mary Dew

Yeah.

Muriel Wilkins

So rule of thumb, if you have that little voice or very loud voice who's saying, you know, it's the whole like, don't do anything that you wouldn't want to see on the front page news or. Yeah, listen to that. Listen to that. That's actually wisdom. So that would also be my suggestion to this individual as well.

Mary Dew

I've done that once or twice with a text where I'm talking about someone and then I almost send it to that person.

Muriel Wilkins

Oh, yeah.

Mary Dew

And then I catch myself and I say almost. And then I delete the whole text and I'm like, I don't need to send that.

Muriel Wilkins

Oh, my God.

Mary Dew

Not scared me that much.

Muriel Wilkins

It happened. Okay, I've done it. And I'm like, no. Oh, oh, my bad.

Mary Dew

All right, let's talk about something a little less stressful.

Muriel Wilkins

Okay. Okay, let's move on.

Mary Dew

All right, next question is, I'm a pretty high energy leader. I'm really lucky that I love my job. I feel really motivated by what I would do and I love when the team that I'm surrounded by is like that as well. I'm kind of wondering about proactive ways to make sure that my team feels engaged and that they're performing at a high level. So it sounds like this is not a problem of, you know, I need to motivate them because they're underperforming. It sounds like someone who really wants to make sure they're sort of starting off on the right foot, maybe.

Muriel Wilkins

Yeah, yeah. Starting off the right foot. And it sounds like they, again, as you said, they're already high performing, they're already motivated. He doesn't want to lose that with the team. He kind of wants to sustain it. You know, I love when leaders are kind of being proactive about this stuff. And here's one of the things that it's so interesting to me because the ones who are often, like, feel this huge amount of responsibility to figure out, like, what are the things I can do to keep my team motivated. And I often am like, have you asked them

Grainger Narrator

what?

Muriel Wilkins

Right. Maybe go to the source, you know, and again, like, problem solve with them. It's not even a problem yet. Just say to them, hey, like, I notice, I see. And what I love about you all is how motivated you are, how high performing you are. I think that's what makes us a great energized team. I love working with you all. I want to try to optimize that and maintain it as much as possible. I understand there are times when we're not going to be able to. But let's talk about what do we need to do with each other or on our own to kind of sustain that, and that is when you can get into rules of engagement. Right. So how do we want to behave? Sort of defining the way that they operate as a team in terms of how often they meet, what are, how do they want to handle communication? Would it be helpful for them to do some fun things together? I don't know. I think what tends to happen though is like managers will come up with an idea like, yes, we should have weekly happy hour. And everybody's like, yeah, like that's not going to motivate me. Right. Or they go to like, well, we'll just pay them more. And yes, pay and compensation is important, but it's not the end all for everyone.

Mary Dew

Right, Right.

Muriel Wilkins

So I think this going to the source to better understand what the motives are because that's what's behind motivation and how can we bring those motives into action. Right. So I remember there was a leader I worked with who, similar to this one, what they found out is like a lot of the folks on the team really enjoyed having those moments of creativity when they could work on something new that they felt inspired by. But they were getting so bogged down by their own success because they were doing so well. They kept getting additional projects and projects and projects that when he went and asked them this very question, well, what would help you like, continue to stay motivated, do the work and, you know, continue to stay motivated. They were like, if we could just get back some of that, like creativity. And so what they came up with is once a month they would get together, I think it was for like an hour and there was lunch or whatnot and they would all bring like problems that they're working on and they would brainstorm and problem solve together. So it wasn't the only thing. But they came up with a list of things that were not heavy lifts that they could incorporate as part of their work that quite frankly just gave them a little bit more joy and motivation than otherwise would have done. So the first place I would say is really like low hanging fruit. Go ask them, ask them. But give the context as to why you're asking and then take it from there.

Mary Dew

Yeah. And I think the productivity is really smart. Right. It's like eating your vegetables versus waiting until you get sick and then you have to take medicine or whatever the analogy is. Right. So I think that's really smart.

Muriel Wilkins

Yeah. And that doesn't mean you're not going to get sick.

Mary Dew

Right.

Muriel Wilkins

You know, but when you do, you know what to do, you have a plan. Like, let me understand what's happening. What's the lack of motivation coming from? Okay, now what can we do?

Mary Dew

All right, should we do the last one? Sure. All right, so the last question. She says, I've been in my industry for nearly 20 years and I'm very good at my job, but my manager can't help but redo my work. They send me emails about the smallest things, sort of the basic micromanager stuff, but I find it very difficult. How do I draw a line with them without hurting my performance review? So, you know, they're worried about, like, kind of direct repercussions of trying to draw a boundary here.

Muriel Wilkins

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think we don't know why the manager's doing this. Right. It might have nothing to do with you. It might be that this is the way that they manage everybody. That doesn't excuse it. But I think understanding whether it's something actually personal or whether it's a habitual on the manager's end is important because if it's personal, then you could look at yourself and say, is there something I could do differently that would minimize the quote, unquote, micromanagement? If it's habitual, it is a little harder because it's a habit on that person. I mean, there's some things we can do which we can talk about, but I think even just differentiating between how personal is this versus how habitual it is can help in terms of how you respond and react to what's happening. I think that this might be the occasion for some reverse feedback. Okay. Upward feedback. And I would do it in a way of saying what it is that you're observing and then to share the impact potentially. But before you share the impact, seek understanding. And so this is what this looks like. Rather than saying, you know, there's some feedback models, say, say what you observed, then say the impact, then gave a suggestion on how the impact could be differently through their actions. In this case, with your micromanaging manager, I would say, hey, I noticed you ask me to redo my work quite a bit. Can you help me understand what's behind that request? Just to kind of understand the context, the assumptions? Because I know you've been in the industry 20 years, but maybe they actually do see something wrong with the work. I don't know. Right. But better you find out. So what is behind it, you know, or I notice you want to be copied on every email. You've asked me to include you on every email. Can you help me understand? How is that useful to you? How's that helpful to you? Because I want to be helpful. Oh, Maybe it's because that's the way they keep track of everything going On. Or it could be, hey, I think that you're rather new in this aspect and I'm using it to oversee your work. Or it could be, yeah, I just like to be kept in the loop. Depending on the response, then you can respond. If you feel like it comes from a place of not trusting you on things that you can actually do, that's when you can then come in and say, the impact it has on me is that you don't trust me to do the work. And if that's the case, then we should address that. Yeah, but if that's not the case, then what I would suggest is an experiment where I copy you on these things and not these other things. And let's see what happens. Does that work for you? They have every right to say yes, no or maybe and renegotiate it. So before you move to feed forward or some suggestions, I would at the very least explore context behind the things that you're observing so that you can respond accordingly.

Mary Dew

Any boss with feedback that has not been asked for, I feel like, is always like a very intimidating thing, right? If the boss wants to know your feedback, it's one thing, but trying to bring it up in a way that feels, you know, not attacking, not critical, but like, getting your point across, I think is always a really intimidating thing. I like the way that you so eloquently put it, which was a little bit of almost, I call it jujitsu, but like, you sort of put the onus on yourself in the voice of this person, but it was still feedback. But you also took some accountability and some responsibility and opened up a window so that even if it is something the manager, it's more of their problem. You're not coming to them saying, stop micromanaging me. Right? Like, there's a way to do it.

Muriel Wilkins

Right? Because I think if. If you come in with that, then yes, it does feel like critical, et cetera, versus if you come into it with curiosity and like, I'm trying to be helpful, I want things to be better, but I want things to be good for you too. You give that feedback in a different place. So always provide context and I think always ask, you know, like, can I chat with you about something that I've observed around the way that we work? Do you want to do that? Does that work? And, you know, a lot of times they'll say yes, and if they're like no, then you have your answer and you know that nothing much is going to change. So then you have a decision to make, right? You change your response to the micromanaging rather than expect them to change anything.

Mary Dew

I was going to say, what if they come back and say, yeah, you write really unprofessional emails and you've been doing it that way for 20 years.

Muriel Wilkins

Well, better than you do now than it show up on your performance reviews and stuff. You got a lot more to be concerned about your performance review now and better that you found out.

Mary Dew

Listen, truth hurts sometimes. It's useful for sure. For sure.

Muriel Wilkins

Yep.

Mary Dew

Amazing. Well, that is everything from the mailbag today.

Muriel Wilkins

Oh wow. Full mailbag.

Mary Dew

Yeah, we've done it. That's a full lid. In the words of C.J. craig.

Muriel Wilkins

Well, that's terrific. Well, until next time, Mary.

Mary Dew

I will see you soon.

Muriel Wilkins

All right y'. All. We will see you next time with another episode of Coaching Real Leaders. And when that one drops, it'll be another coaching session. If you want to unpack the episodes from Coaching Real Leaders, you can join me at coachingrealeaderscommunity.com where I host live discussions about coaching sessions you hear on this podcast and I also answer questions just like I do here, but you can ask them directly of me and you can also follow me on LinkedIn @Murielman Wilkins on Instagram Oach Muriel Wilkins, A reminder that if you love these coaching conversations, it would mean the world to me if you could head over to Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcasts so that you can subscribe to the show. And please, please, please leave a five star review. Thank you to my producer Mary Dew, sound editor Nick Krinko, music composer Brian Campbell, and my chief of staff Emily Sofa. Much gratitude to the the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations and to you, our listeners who share in their journeys. I'm Muriel Wilkins. Until next time, be well.

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