John Acuff

It's giving yourself four specific permissions in this permission to dream, permission to plan, permission to do, and permission to review. And if you do, if you consistently lean into those simple actions, it's almost hard to not be successful.

Craig Groeschel

Hey, it's great to have you back for another episode of the Craig Groeschel Leadership Podcast. If you're new with us, we drop a brand new episode on the first Thursday of each month. What I want you to do is go to cglp.com and subscribe to the Leader Guide. I promise you the Leader Guide has a ton of valuable information to help you, questions to go over with your team, and it'll be worth your time, I promise. Today's guest let's go.

John Acuff

I'm ready.

Craig Groeschel

John Acuff, the one and only.

John Acuff

That's great.

Craig Groeschel

New York Times bestselling author of 11 books, one of the most phenomenal teachers of leadership around, Inc. Named you one of the top 100 leadership speakers. You spoken at Microsoft, Walmart, Comedy Central. You'll be again with us this year at the Global Leadership Summit.

John Acuff

Can't wait. Third time.

Craig Groeschel

We've actually got a little exercise we're gonna do this year that might be fun.

John Acuff

Yeah, we'll find out soon.

Craig Groeschel

Controversial.

John Acuff

Find out soon. Horrific.

Craig Groeschel

We'll find out soon. We might talk about that. And you are the host of the podcast on All It Takes is a Goal. Congratulations on your new book, Procrastination Proof. Never Get Stuck Again. I'll hold up the book. Did you procrastinate in writing this book at all?

John Acuff

I had to make sure it worked first. I couldn't have written this book at 34. This couldn't be my second book because I didn't know if it was true. The subtitle Never Gets Stuck again would have been an arrogant guess, but by book 11, I feel good about saying, hey, if you do these things, they work. My thing is evidence beats confidence. And so by book 11, I. I don't have to question, hey, if you do these things, do you actually get books done? Do you actually succeed at the things you want to do? It took me a while to build up the evidence before I could write this one.

Craig Groeschel

So when people, when you're on an airplane and they say, hi, I'm so and so, what do you do? What do you say?

John Acuff

I say, I write books. And then they say, what's your most successful? Which is always humiliating because then you name it and they go, never heard of it. I don't think you're that successful. That never happens to Lawyers, nobody ever goes, what's the biggest case you've argued? And you name it. And they go, no, I haven't heard of that one. I don't think you're a good lawyer.

Craig Groeschel

So you say you write books?

John Acuff

Yeah, I say, now I write Theo of Golden. I just say, I wrote that one. It's done. Well, no, I say, yeah, I write books. And they tell me one of two things. They want to write a book or again, they ask me like, well, tell me about what that process is like.

Craig Groeschel

See, if someone says, what does John Acuff do? I would say that's one of the things you do. But maybe not even from my perspective, the biggest thing you do. So from where I'm sitting is you speak to some of the biggest companies around and when you talk to them, what are you normally talking about around?

John Acuff

Two things, mindset and goals, which to me are peanut butter and jelly. So a lot of times mindset is the structure of culture and they're over focusing on their actions, but they're not getting the real change and they need to step one, step back and go, okay, what's the mindset that's driving our actions? And so those are usually the things that a team will bring me in to go talk about this. I wrote this book called Soundtracks about kind of how to fix your mindset. And it's funny, if I had named it Inner Voices, men wouldn't have read it because men don't want to admit they have an inner voice. But I recently spoke at CattleCon, the world's largest beef event. Obviously it was me and Dale Earnhardt Jr. Just a couple of NASCAR legends, and they were willing to talk about their soundtracks because it's such a good handle for that discussion. So that's usually what I talk about.

Craig Groeschel

But you also, you don't just speak, you don't just write, but you, your impact is so big. You have an organization, a team.

John Acuff

I have a team in Franklin, Tennessee, outside of Nashville, and we really work on multiplying. You and I talk about that a lot. So we have like a two day event called Stage and Page where we bring in 20 people at a time and help them figure out what does it mean to be on stage? What does it mean to create a bestselling book? Not just a book, but what does it take to get your message heard by hundreds of thousands or even millions? So yeah, it's been fun to steward the opportunities as they come.

Craig Groeschel

Yeah. So I want to come back and ask you about that, but I want to Hear a little bit of the story that got you there, because I was listening to a podcast that you did, and you said there was a leader that, you know, who said, I didn't ever think you would be doing this. And I thought, I think that's me.

John Acuff

Yeah, it was you. Yeah. And it was right over in that room over there.

Craig Groeschel

Yeah. So the story behind it is, is I knew you years before when you were more of what I would say you were kind of a blog. Would you say you were a blogger? Yeah. So you were. You were. You were doing written content, and you did maybe one of your first talks that I was in the room for, and I thought it was okay, not. Not great, but o. And now you're genuinely not just world class, but you're one of the best of the best.

John Acuff

The best.

Craig Groeschel

And so I'd like to hear a little bit of the story of that. When did you start seeing that there was more in you and what were some of the early steps or risks you took to bring out more?

John Acuff

Yeah, I mean, the big thing was in my early 30s, probably 33, I discovered this crazy concept called personal responsibility.

Craig Groeschel

I was on my adulting in your.

John Acuff

Imagine that. My wife and kids were hoping I'd find that sooner. It took me a bit, but I just started to realize that no one was showing up. I had to take ownership of my mindset and overthinking and goals, and I kind of bumped into personal development. And then I started this blog. And what happened? For me, that happens to a lot of people. I really think people only change by one of two ways. Desire. Disappointment. They bump into a desire they really want, or the disappointment gets loud enough that they desire to change. And we think discipline is what does it. I've never met somebody that woke up one day and just said, I'm going to have grit. I'm going to have sacrifice. I'm going to have willpower. People don't willingly leave their comfort zones, and they shouldn't because it's comfortable. There's always something outside it that's worth being uncomfortable for. So I started a blog and realized, oh, wait, there's this whole world out there, and if I apply myself to it, I can really change things. So I didn't start getting up earlier because I was disciplined. I started getting up earlier because I had two kids under the age of four, and 5am was the only time I could write. And so then that changed my whole life, because then I looked at my calendar and every hour was a log, and I wanted to throw. Throw it into the fire of the things that were working. So then I was like, I'm gonna stop watching so much tv because it's not giving me anything, and blogging's giving me everything. So that's what really started it. And then I just started to kind of pour into that and go, okay, how do I make it bigger? How do I get really good at it? How do I. And then that's what brought us from Atlanta to Nashville. I worked for Dave Ramsey for three years, which is why I was in this building 15 years ago. And then I wanted to do it on my own and started my own company. So there are all these little inflection moments where it was like, okay, if you pour it on, what happens? And if you surround yourself with leaders who are good at pouring it on. Like, I think of leaders like you. You're, you know, a few years ahead of me. Like, you're a time machine. Like, you've been to the future I'm trying to get to. So we just spent the hour before this me asking you about, how do you recover? Well. Cause I'm a go, go, go guy, and if I don't learn how to apply myself to that, I won't go as far and as fast as I want to go. So it just. It was like a bunch of things snowballed and to kind of get me into this spot.

Craig Groeschel

So 15 years ago, was that your first, like, stage talk or what?

John Acuff

No, it was my. It was. I would say it was probably my fifth, because I did. My first stage talk was in Edmond, Oklahoma. Company offered me a couple hundred dollars to come speak at Ministry Con. And so I came and did a really terrible talk in Edmond, Oklahoma. Had seven main points, but it was enough that I was like, oh, okay.

Craig Groeschel

So do you ever find yourself at an event and feel like I'm not qualified to be here and dealt with kind of imposter syndrome?

John Acuff

Oh, 100%. I mean, if I step into a room full of hedge fund managers, and I know the majority of them are all, like, they're all worth. Or they've all earned a quarter billion dollars, and I come into that, then I definitely feel that sense of imposter syndrome or the inner critic. But again, but I've just worked at it where I'll say things like, they invited me here on purpose. I didn't break in. I didn't break into this room. And, like, I stole the mic. Like, they hired me on purpose also. The only thing that I found that beats imposter Syndrome is effort is evidence. Meaning it's really hard for imposter syndrome to tell me as I write book 13, you're not a real writer. Because then I go, man, these shelves are full of books that have my name. I feel like I might be a writer. So anytime I feel imposter syndrome, I go to battle with it, with action, with work, where I go, no, I really worked hard on this talk. Like, I really dialed, like, when I'm at gls, I'm, like, closing out gls. Last time I was dialed in, I had done multiple free events to work on that content. Because there's. The challenge for speakers is there's no comedy club where you can do a new material Monday that people pay five bucks and they expect it to stink. Like, that's the. Like, you have to be dialed in. So if I've done my part, even though I feel like imposter sometimes or inner critic, I've put actions against it. And then I have soundtracks that help me in that moment, and that kind of keeps me focused.

Craig Groeschel

So I want to start with kind of what I would consider to be basic. But you've got maybe a newer leader who's going to be leading a meeting and has to do kind of a vision casting or rally talk. What advice do you give to them to be most effective?

John Acuff

The first thing is make it an act of service, not performance. You're going to put so much pressure on yourself if you go, I got to perform. I got to perform. Instead, go. This is an act of service that changed public speaking for me, where I realized, I tell young speakers, you're not the bride at this wedding. The CEO is the bonus they're waiting to see if it gets announced is you're carrying in a really good plate of chicken. And it better be amazing. But, like, one put the focus on the person. So if I'm speaking to 12 people, I. I'm first going, what do these people need? And I'm trying to, like, I'm trying to get a sense of that. Like, the client interview is probably the most important thing I do, where I do a call with them beforehand and go, you know, like, one of my favorite questions to ask is if you think about a communication or a talk on a spectrum, and one end of it says instruction, and one end says inspiration. Where do you want this to land? Because it's an easy question for them to answer. Or I'll say, you know, describe to me a home run. What does it look like to you? And then I'm going To do those things in the talk. So if I'm speaking to 12 people as a leader, where I'm going, okay, I have a thing. I need to communicate, because otherwise I wouldn't be doing it. But how do I want to make. How do I make sure they hear it? How do I make sure it applies to them? How do I make sure that I serve them? In this moment, if you go in with service, it changes it.

Craig Groeschel

Yeah. I want to pause there, because this is so important and I think is worthy of driving in. Like, a lot of times, someone will do a talk, and afterwards, people will say, like, how do you feel about your talk? And I kind of want to say, dumb question. It doesn't really matter how you feel about it. What matters is how do the people listening to it feel about it? That is the only question that matters. And so it actually changes your mindset more than you can even describe when you walk in and say, my goal is not to do good here, but my goal is to help you be successful or to help whatever. And so I call it. You focus, not me, focus. You said the words were service, not performance.

John Acuff

Yeah. And I say to the client, I want your phone blowing up, not mine. I say, I get to be here an hour. You're here all year. I've done my job. If the event planner is getting a text that goes, hey, there's a million people that you could have brought in. Thanks for bringing John in. That really showed us you cared about us. Or, like, I. One of my goals with a talk is I want to say a joke so specific to that audience it would bomb in every other room. So, like, so because. So that way, they know I want them to feel like I've read their diary. Like, I'm so dialed into the challenges they have, and I've asked the right questions, and I'm able to reflect that in the same way that I know you're gonna talk to interns later. I know you care about interns. I know you're not gonna show up with a stock leader talk. You've already done the work to go, man. Okay, what are interns like? What's that moment really? Like, what are the things they're afraid of or excited about or they're at this big thing called life church. How do I. You've already thought through that. And the intern's gonna go, I didn't know Craig knew my world. Like, and that changed. Like, they walk out as the hero of that, not you.

Craig Groeschel

Yep. So in the team that you're Leading right now. What are you trying to help them feel?

John Acuff

Yeah, what am I trying to help them feel? Well, one, I want them to feel the excitement of the work we get to do. I think it's easy when you try to build a high performing culture to kind of start to see things as numbers. And so I try to get them to feel the life change we have. So an example of that would be we do this event called Remarkable youe. And one of my favorite things there is we have a brag table. We tell people beforehand. There's very few places in life where you get to celebrate without being judged. Like, if you say something you're excited about online, people go humble. Brag must be nice. And so we have something called the brag table and people bring hundreds of items. Like somebody brought a bird bath, a limestone bird bath that they had carved that they are proud of. So I'm trying to connect them to the end person that we're helping versus like just the revenue numbers, just the growth numbers. Like these are real people's lives who we have this special chance to really impact. Like, let's stay focused on that. I'm trying to get them to feel that.

Craig Groeschel

Is there anything that you're seeing is a little bit different today in leading a team than maybe five years ago?

John Acuff

Yeah, I mean, I think there's a lot that I'm seeing different where it's what does the younger generation care about in a different way? I think there's this overreaction to, well, my parents cared about this. I don't care about that. I've talked to a lot of leaders. Take Feedback, for instance. I had a company recently say we've got young, like late 20s, and they interpret a feedback as attack. They see any criticism as it's not a safe work environment. So how do we get them to understand the goal of the feedback as they get better? It's not an attack. So I think I'm seeing that. I'm seeing what motivates people be a little bit different. The easy answer of more money will motivate them to do the thing. I think that in some ways younger generations are immune to that as the only possible carrot and do want more purpose. So I'm seeing leaders have to learn that language. And the third thing is people are bringing their full selves to work. Like they're bringing their mental health, they're bringing their emotions to work. And leaders are having to learn the language of that.

Craig Groeschel

So tell me about the language of that. What does that mean?

John Acuff

Well, part of it is the leader going first in some situations. Like, I think oftentimes leaders want an environment they're not even willing to be part of. Meaning they go, we want you to have direct feedback and share and talk about, like, we want you to take. You have permission to risk. Like, procrastination Proof talks about the word permission. Like, we want you to have permission to risk. But they're not admitting risks they've taken or saying, hey, this didn't work. And so I think leaders are having to learn. Like, if I go first, I give everyone in the room the gift of going second. But I have to go first on this thing, and I have to. And they're watching to see my reaction to this, because I can tell you all day, to my team, I want you to be brave and we're going to take risks. And then if I overreact when the risk doesn't work, I just shut that down. Or if I say I want real feedback and I defend myself, I've just guaranteed that person will never tell me the truth again. And so that, to me, is the tension for leaders or one of them.

Craig Groeschel

So you're kind of known for comedy. How important, if at all, is that in the workplace, having fun?

John Acuff

Oh, I think it's everything. I mean, I think, like, people, it was funny. We talked about this the other day about, like, joy as a motivator. I think people don't stay with companies, they stay with people. People don't stay with churches, they stay with people. And I think joy and humor is a big part of that. And it's something they're doing outside their life or outside their job. And it's. If you can get it inside their job, it creates honesty. Like, it allows you, you know, you've healed from a situation where you're able to joke about it a little and you're able to say, like, hey, remember when we invested in that thing and two people showed up like that was. And like, like, we have. There's a funny thing, like, in our business, I'll give you one that we're all laughing about now. We printed up like 300 shirts with a motivational statement on it that say hills pay the bills. And then we didn't print anything on the front to save money. And then we quickly realized nobody buys a shirt with a blank front. Like, it always has at least a little thing until, like, I have 300 blank front shirt. And now I'm going to give them to this workout group. I, you, I work out with, and I'll just have them in my trunk, handing them out probably for the next six months. And we're. We're on the other side of that, and we can laugh about that. So I think laughter is often one of those canary in the coal mines of. We still have a culture where that's okay.

Craig Groeschel

So I think just the fun in the office is actually it doesn't happen accidentally. Sometimes in some environments, you want to create it fun when you're in front of people, which is kind of your specialty. What goes into your mindset of. Even if you're doing a meeting, if you're casting vision, if you're doing a keynote talk at gls, Tell me how you think about comedy in approaching that moment.

John Acuff

Well, one, I want to get there quickly in most environments I go into.

Craig Groeschel

You get where quickly.

John Acuff

Humor. I want to give them permission to laugh almost immediately.

Craig Groeschel

Why is that?

John Acuff

Because they haven't been able to the rest of the day. Usually. Usually an environment I'm in, it's a very serious environment. And so they don't even know, like, the first joke or two I do. People are like, wait, was that. Was he. Was that a joke? Like, are we. Oh, we can. You know. And same with, like, people who, like, imagine a church. You've been brought to church for the first time, and you have a lot of baggage about church. Probably you come in the first joke, you're like, oh, wait, wait, they got jokes here. So I try to give them permission to laugh very, very quickly. I try to use it as a way to pop the tension in moments. It's a great tension pop where you build the tension, build the tension, then you pop it with humor, and you build it and build it. And so it's a great kind of disruptor that way. It's also a great amplifier to make a point obvious where you say, hey, here's the thing that's happening. And you go, you'd never. And then you expand it even further. And so there's so many different ways my. The kind of the basis of what I do. Chris Rock said there's certain things people won't listen to unless they're laughing at the same time. So I like one of my favorite. Let's just do a biblical joke that I absolutely love that I don't get to do much. I joke about Noah and how. I'll say, you've made some mistakes. Some of you made some mistakes this weekend. You had too many white claws. Noah had to plant a vineyard to get drunk. He had a nine year. He was Tending garden six years from now, I'm getting wasted. It takes a long time for grapes to become wine. And so, like, that was a. So I'll use that as a. Like, hey, you made some mistakes, and that's a hard thing. But I'm bringing that in on the wings of a very funny thing of, like, you didn't, like, grow your white claw. You didn't, you know, and that's a tension breaker. So to me, humor has, like 50 different applications and people remember it. People love to remember humor.

Craig Groeschel

Yeah, I wanna slow it down because there are a lot of people who think, well, I'm not gonna go speak to Microsoft, like you or Walma. But they are gonna be in front of people all the time. Anyone in any form of leadership is gonna be in front of people. So I'm gonna restate some of what you said just so they'll hear it. So for me is I do wanna be occasionally or often funny early on, if someone's got their arms crossed and I can make them laugh, the arms often uncross. And it's both for them to relax. And also, I'll tell our speakers, it helps them to relax when people are laughing as well. And then what you said is really, really true, that it can. Like, I'm doing a message series on marriage right now, and I'm intentionally coming in a little bit looser to let find the humor moments because it can be so tense that if I don't create some humor relief, they're not going to listen. Or it's almost like a buffer that gives them the ability to handle a harder truth with humor. If someone says, hey, I wanna do that, but I don't know how to create it. Tell me how you think about creat

John Acuff

Easiest thing in the world. So all you have to do is be as funny as you'd be at a dinner party. Meaning if you're slapstick and over the top at a dinner party. Be that. If you're dry at a dinner party, be that. If you're sarcastic. The problem is people go, I want to be funnier.

Craig Groeschel

See, I just disagree. I think, like, comedy comedians are depressed. Many of them.

John Acuff

Well, no, but here's what I mean. Like, do you think Nate Bargazzi is hyper offstage and he's wild and, like, over the top? No, I've had dinner with him.

Craig Groeschel

He's.

John Acuff

Exactly.

Craig Groeschel

So be yourself.

John Acuff

Be yourself.

Craig Groeschel

What if yourself is not naturally funny? How do you do it?

John Acuff

Well, I mean, again, be your version. So, like, everybody had some small version and you can amplify it for stage. But I just mean, like, if you think about it that way, you've already been practicing where like think about a time. Like a lot of times when I'm talking with friends and I say something, they react to it. I go, oh, that would be good on stage, like, cause.

Craig Groeschel

And so do you catalog that?

John Acuff

Oh, 100%. Yeah.

Craig Groeschel

How do you do it? What do you do?

John Acuff

So I use, like, I take a ton of notes. I1, I think you should be the greatest note taker on yourself. Like, that's just self awareness. Like, like I tell people all the time, if you want to change your life, remember you're the best you salesman in the world because every decision you've made first you sold yourself into it. So I'm just really deliberate about like, oh, I said that thing and it worked in a conversation. Because every audience is made of humans. The problem is leaders go, well, now I'm talking to 20 people. And that's different. Like, no, it's 20 individual humans. So the thing that worked with three of your friends when you were talking, like, if you can, if you can find a way to work that in. And it's not like I now have to go become funny and learn Swahili. Like, that's where it feels like pressure. It feels like less pressure where you go, oh, I did say this funny thing with my kid and that's a funny thing I could share on stage and if I find the right way to do it. And then the other thing is, like, just make sure you connect it. Every talk is built off of islands and bridges, meaning, like main points and then the bridge to the next one. And where people get stuck on humor, anything really is, they have an amazing island, but there's no bridge to the next one. So I see leaders go, here's a funny story about football. And they go, now let's talk about God hurt. And it's a hard left turn. You go, you left the audience on the island. They want to come to the next island, but you didn't bridge them.

Craig Groeschel

And the length of the story has to equal the payoff. Meaning if it's a really long story with a weak payoff, it's not good.

John Acuff

Oh, yeah, no, no. Like, I don't. You know, my wife will sit in some of my talks sometimes and she'll tell me that, like, she'll say, hey, boy, we took a long way to get to that one line. And she was like, that's a three minute. So, yeah, you're always kind of figuring out where is the payoff. And again, if you're a leader watching this and you feel like I'm not naturally funny, there's some degree of funny. You are. Like, you've made a person laugh, you've made your family laugh, you've made a friend laugh. I don't want you to feel the pressure that it's this other language. You just have to find your version and then figure out how does that serve people in this moment? And again, sometimes it's. Sometimes it's something as simple as combining words that aren't often combined. So, like, I do this joke about how everybody says the first step is the hardest part of the journey. I think it's the middle because we have launch parties. I've never been to a middle party. I've never had a manager say, hey, we're at the worst part. Time for middle cake. And the phrase middle cake gets a laugh because middle and cake have never been jammed together. So sometimes it's as simple as you go, this word and this word. Or if you are a leader at an organization, you have shared language with people. You have, you know, you've done laps with them. And if you pay attention, you'll recognize some of those things of, like, oh, we like, remember that bad hotel we all stayed at that one time in Spokane? And, like, that's a shared thing you can laugh about. It's not that you have to go learn how to be a great joke writer. That feels like a lot of pressure to me.

Craig Groeschel

Yeah, Yeah, I agree. In leadership, most of the time, almost all the time, humor's not gonna be the goal. It's a tool.

John Acuff

No, it's a vehicle.

Craig Groeschel

It's a vehicle.

John Acuff

It's a vehicle. Yeah. So. So for you, when you think about your talks, are you specifically putting in things that you think are funny, or are you balancing it?

Craig Groeschel

Yeah, rarely. Most of mine are discovered at the moment. If I've got a big talk somewhere, I might pre plan a couple of humor spots or at least a story that has it. But on the weekend, I am more spontaneous in the moment only because of the volume of talks. And I'm not that good at writing comedy. So when I say I try to be loose. What? I try to be loose enough to be in the moment, to find something funny to get off script.

John Acuff

Well, I've seen you do it where I saw you, it was the anniversary of the church, and I saw you tell, like, the story I remember that had humor baked into. It was about a campus where it was Just somebody showing videos. It was like a rogue campus that was showing videotapes. And eventually, like, we needed to bring this guy into the fold, like they were crushing out. And that got a huge laugh because people had experienced that together. Even though you didn't say, I figured out a perfect joke to write prehand. That worked because it was a shared common experience and it also honored the person that did that.

Craig Groeschel

Your book, Procrastination Proof. What is the most common thing you procrastinate in organizational leadership?

John Acuff

Difficult conversations. Definitely difficult conversations.

Craig Groeschel

And why is that?

John Acuff

It's the fear of confrontation. The fear of the aftermath of the confrontation. The desire. I have a good desire to be liked. That can get unhealthy. So it's unhealthy when I avoid what needs to be said because I want that person to like me more than I want the team to win. And so whenever I think about something, I still wrestle with procrastinating. That's it.

Craig Groeschel

So based on a lot of experience working with leaders, that would be one of the most common answers is people don't want to have of difficult conversations. What do you say to that leader to help them move off center?

John Acuff

I say one, the conversation's already happening. Like it's in that moment. You're kind of like a leader gets stuck where it's almost like they're a toddler playing hide and go seek. Meaning, like if I cover my eyes, they can't see me. Like it's already happening. Like, AI is a great example. I'm afraid to talk. I hear that all the time from leaders that go, if I bring it up with my team, they panic. They panic. They're already talking. You're not their only source of AI information. They're already worried and they're writing their own story. So I try to tell leaders that conversation is already happening. It's a question of whether you'll get to be part of it and infuse it with truth versus just fear. The person you're avoiding is already having that conversation by themselves, and it's probably not the way you want it to go. So I want to encourage you to jump into that. It's not will it happen or won't it happen? It's happening. It's will you be part of it?

Craig Groeschel

And so if someone is stuck, stuck there and they're. They're afraid to make that, take that next step. I don't want it to be awkward. I don't want to hurt their feelings. How do they move off of it?

John Acuff

Well, I think you move off of it. Like anything in life, you go, what does it look like for it to be done? Well, like, you know, I've had. You know, and remind yourself of the truth. I've had difficult conversations before. What went well about it? What didn't go well? Like, this isn't my first. If you're a leader in your 40s or 50s, this isn't your first one. And you go, okay, what. What went well? How could I plan this one? Like, be deliberate about it. The problem is we often are afraid of it, and then we rip the band aid off. We tend to jump into things quickly because we're afraid to actually deal with them. But if you gave yourself some time to go, I want it to go well, and actually put a little work into it, who do I know that's great at confrontational conversations? And go talk to them in the same way that if you were trying to get in shape, you would go talk to your friend who's in shape. And people who are good at things love to talk about them. So I would find my friend who's actually good at sharing the truth, and, you know, my life would be a guy named Hunter. In our small group, I go, hey, Hunter, I've watched on the outside, you have to make some difficult decisions. Can you. I've got one coming up. Can you. Can you tell me a little about that or ask me some questions about that? Like, treat it like you would. Anything else that you want to be excellent at?

Craig Groeschel

Yeah. I found that being direct and moving straight to it is sometimes the easiest thing. I've been in meetings where someone has to say something difficult, and they'll be like, how was your weekend? How's the family?

John Acuff

You guys good? No.

Craig Groeschel

You've been water skiing lately, you know, and start the.

John Acuff

And everybody knows, like, no, everybody knows. Nobody wants to talk about water skiing. Yeah.

Craig Groeschel

I had a mentor tell me, and I've tried this a few times, that literally just starting and saying, like, this is not going to be an easy conversation. And so you even said it there. And what's interesting is then they kind of know where it's going. And immediately after that, you say, but because I care so much about you, I'm gonna tell you the very direct truth. And the goal of this is to come out in a better place. And so you kind of, like, you hit it. You express care, and you're expressing the goal. So those are just some little. Oh, yeah. I found that if I can get myself to say those things immediately, then you get over the resistance. And you're into the conversation if you're not doing that. And I just wanna say to some of the leaders right now, you're losing respect of the rest of the team. Who knows? The conversation needs to happen.

John Acuff

And they're talking about it.

Craig Groeschel

They're talking about it.

John Acuff

Yes.

Craig Groeschel

This is one of the biggest things I see. And then you talk in the book about kind of the four different mindsets or traps that people fall. And tell me about those. And let's talk about. I want everybody, everyone listening is about to see themselves in these traps and talk about how do we overcome them? What are they and how do we overcome them?

John Acuff

Yeah. So the book's about permission and it's giving yourself four specific permissions in this order. Permission to dream, permission to plan, permission to do, and permission to review.

Craig Groeschel

So hang on.

John Acuff

Dream, plan, do, review. And if you consistently lean into those simple actions, it's almost hard to not be successful. But where people get stuck is dreamers get stuck dreaming they have a thousand ideas, zero actions. They always say, like, I just don't know which one to pick. I've got so many ideas. Perfectionists get stuck planning. They're always going to change the world as soon as the plan is perfect. Hustlers get stuck hustling and doing. They just want to do. They want to skip the plan. And they want to. They never want to review sales. Teams are the worst at this, where they'll go, oh, I hate this paperwork I have to fill out. And the team will be like, it's three fields. It's the name of the customer you sold to. And they're like, ah, so much work. And then analysts get stuck reviewing. They tend to review mistakes from the past and predict failure in the future. And so this is the. When I share this in a talk, like a corporate talk, this is where I see the most elbows. This is where leaders come, come up after me and go, I got texts from my team and they said, we have 11 dreamers and no doers. This is why we're stuck. So, yeah, people fall into one of those four.

Craig Groeschel

So I'm a hustler.

John Acuff

Yeah.

Craig Groeschel

What advice do you have for me?

John Acuff

Well, I mean, a hustler, a big part of it is, how do you make some time to plan? And the big thing is, how do you make some time to review, to pause? And I think you're actually really good at that with the way you structure, rest and recovery. That's part of what we talked about today. Most hustlers think, think more action. Fixes every problem. And sometimes it's a slightly different plan, but they never give themselves that time to pause and go, are we headed in the right direction? And they're like, no, no. We're making so much progress. And sometimes it's right off a cliff. So just seeing the value of a. We're going to do a review. Like, I was walking in today with one of your team members and they were talking about a review you guys have every quarter about team members. Like, and. And there would be a hustler on the outside that would go, what a waste of time. Like, think about all those leaders that are wasting that time. Review. And it's like, no, if we do a review, it pays exponential dividends. We have the right person in the right spot and we give them the right resources. So a hustler, a lot of times it's like, can you add a small bit of review into your cycle to run even faster? It's not slowing you down. It might initially like that initial plan. The review might slow you down, but it speeds you up long term.

Craig Groeschel

So organizationally, what would be some of the reviews that you have baked in that help make your output more effective?

John Acuff

Well, I mean, we have. We have a bi weekly full team review where people are bringing the challenges that, you know, here's what's going on. In my kind of section of it, we have a, like, kind of after action review where it's like, here's what we did with this project. You know, what would we repeat about this? Like a book launch? Hey, we tried this thing and it was a great swing and I felt good about it, but it didn't move numbers. Like, or it moved vanity numbers. Like, you and I talk about that a lot. Where it's like, this looked good on Instagram, but didn't. Didn't move things. Like, I'm an example of a review. A change that I made because of a review is I realized Instagram is fun, but LinkedIn is profitable. For years as a hustler, I was like, gotta grow Instagram, gotta grow Twitter. And meanwhile, guess where people who book corporate speakers are? They're on LinkedIn. And it's also the only platform you don't get in trouble for if you use it at work. People close Instagram for their boss comes in, they're on LinkedIn all day. And I realized, oh, okay, I didn't see that because I was so hustling on Instagram. So you know us as a team reviewing. Okay, what are we doing right now? You know, we're putting a lot of time in Instagram. What did that turn into? Do we have a goal? Do we have a plan? Or is it just reach? Like, reach is just a fuzzy, know nothing thing. Like what. What are we actually trying to accomplish?

Craig Groeschel

Would you ever advise people, groups, teams to even eliminate some of those forms of communication that everyone considers essential?

John Acuff

Oh, yeah, yeah. If they're not producing what you want them to produce, I think everything you do should have an end. This is why we're doing it. I think that we as organizations are really good at adding things all year. I don't think we're really good at removing them. So if you looked at every year we're going to or every quarter we're going to be deliberate about what are we removing? What's historical but no longer impactful. All of a sudden you'd go, hey, I know we do this thing. But I was realizing nobody looks at the report. Where I get in trouble with my team is when I don't do that. What happens is, is I'll come up with an idea and go, we should try this. And I'm excited about it. And then they go execute it. And then if I'd sat on it for a week, I probably wouldn't have done it. I was just excited in the moment. So even my assistant, I did that

Craig Groeschel

in two minute bursts. Like, I literally have an idea and I'll send it off. And it was like it just stuck in my head. And then 30 minutes later, I forget I had it.

John Acuff

And then they bring it back to you and go, what is this?

Craig Groeschel

Why are we doing this?

John Acuff

Yeah, so here's how to fix that. So. So what I learned to do with my executive assistant is we have a waiting period. So I'll like when I'm in that mode and I'm giving her ideas, we'll wait three to five, seven days. She'll come back a week later and go, hey, here's five things you thought we should maybe do last week. Do you still want to do these? And put resources against. I go, oh, no, for these. What? I said that? And then like, one, we'll move forward. And now I've saved her that time as a leader where I was making the mistake is I would give her ten things to do. I wouldn't tell which ones I really wanted. She would try to guess and she'd come back and go, I did 2, 4, and 5. And I go, oh, I wanted 1, 7 and 9. But as a leader, I wasn't being deliberate enough to say here's kind of the plan and what a waste of time and resources. And as a leader, you can waste time and resources faster than anybody.

Craig Groeschel

That's absolutely right. How do you stay focused on what's

John Acuff

most important continually, like, constantly? It's not.

Craig Groeschel

Tell me the how.

John Acuff

Yeah. So the how for me is like,

Craig Groeschel

I've got so many options. You could easily be dispersed and lose your impact.

John Acuff

Yeah. So, I mean, one of the things I talk about in the book is my favorite definition of discipline is make tomorrow easy today. Make tomorrow easy today. And so I've gotten really. I'm not a natural planner, but I've just dialed that in. So if I wake up on Monday morning without a plan, I feel overwhelmed. I feel like there's too many things to do. The phone's already ringing. So I always say, night me hooks up morning me. So I'm planning a 15 minute. Like, here's what we're focusing on tomorrow. Here's why we're to going. Going to do it. I'm making it as real as possible.

Craig Groeschel

That's not natural to you?

John Acuff

That's not natural to me. No. Most of these things aren't natural to me. I just see the benefit. I've just, like, positivity, I wouldn't say is natural to me. I just know positivity has a better ROI than negativity, So I practice it. Most of the things in my life that I work on are not necessarily natural. I just see them as beneficial so that I make them part of my life. And so the other thing is, I make the calendar, my friends, meaning I know what I have time for and what I don't. So if I say, like, we're gonna do these 20 things, but I haven't assigned real time to it, I've just kind of lied to myself versus going. Given what we have this year, given the resources, given the time, given the Runway, here's what we. And also building in, like, reviews along the way to pull back and go, that was not the right thing. Like, we tried that. That was not the right thing. Because you can do anything as a leader. And the other thing is, you get people on the outside that'll give you bad advice. Say to me all the time, you're leaving money on the table. You're leaving money, and there's this big fictional pile of money on some table somewhere. And then they. The second thing they do is they go, this other person is actually getting that money. And then the third thing they tell you is, it's very easy for Him. Like, he. It's just, it's so easy. Like people do have a podcast, they go, just do a podcast, it's so easy. Like do YouTube. Why aren't you crushing YouTube? And I now have the wisdom as a 50 year old to go, hey, did that other person you mentioned, has he written 11 books? And they go, no, he doesn't write books. YouTube's this whole thing. And I go, ah, that's interesting because books are a big part and I do 60 corporate events a year, so I have my year kind of planned out. So you have to get immune to bad advice and you have to not let your ego go, man, we are. So as a leader, I think you have to obsess about the things you're doing. Like stare at those. Like stare at those so hard you barely. And that's the same with faith. Like, you stare at the beauty so much, the other stuff starts to look ugly. It starts to look like a silly distraction. And you have this great kind of know all. Not because you're disciplined necessarily, but because you're obsessed about the things you are going to do and you're all in.

Craig Groeschel

So we probably get what I would say would be like the equivalent of two to three meals together a year. Would you say that's about right? So we're at an event and we have a green room conversation for 30 minutes. We have a breakfast at an event. And so we've done that for several years. So I feel like I know you, but not. But we don't talk every week. So I'm going to make what I consider to be an educated assessment of your last 15 years. I want you to correct me where I'm wrong, but I want to kind of, I want to put words to this and maybe it will be helpful to someone. So comment back. It seems to me that you are, you're willing to experiment a lot, you are willing to fail, but you're also a pragmatist that you're going to look and analyze on the backside what works and what has an roi. Based on the gifts that I have, you are willing to venture out into places that feel a little bit uncomfortable to you and have discovered some things in you that you might not have known were there. You have the discipline to focus on the places that have the highest impact and work to bring those into kind of what I say parallel to what you enjoy. And you're willing to say no to the traditional inputs and tracks in order to create your own. Am I close?

John Acuff

Yeah. Yeah, totally.

Craig Groeschel

Where Am I wrong?

John Acuff

No, I don't think you're. I mean, I think that gives me a lot of bravery credit, that sometimes I don't feel like I do feel.

Craig Groeschel

But you might be nervous, but you still do it.

John Acuff

I still do it, yeah. I've learned over time how to run toward things I'm afraid of or to explore them.

Craig Groeschel

Now tell me how you do that and why.

John Acuff

So I see something where I have an overreaction emotionally to something, and I go, oh, that. Okay, well, let me pay attention to that. Like, that was an odd thing. Like, why am I releasing a book? So just the other day, so the book comes out, and books are challenging for somebody who likes control because you don't control so much of it. You don't control if you hit a wave. You don't control it grows it the right way.

Craig Groeschel

You don't control if your publishers have the. Enough printed.

John Acuff

No, like, it's. You're out of. Like, you're out of control most of it. And it's easy in those moments when I feel out of control to run from the situation. So then I just go, what's an action I can do that will help alleviate that? So I was just like, okay, if I talk about the book 500 times between now and the end of the year, I'll feel good knowing I didn't run from that. I ran toward that. And so I've just learned to tactically run toward things I'm afraid of. And then to have, like. I would just say my marriage is so pivotal to this. Like, you've been able to meet Jenny. Like, we've had breakfast out in California that time. Like, the conversations I have with her about this, where she sees things faster than me. And my job is to go, oh, wow, what is she seeing that I'm not seeing? And respond to that and not add to that meaning. Like, one of our. Like, our marriage goes so much better if I don't add you idiot, to the end of any of her sentences. Like, where she goes, hey, I think you need to try this with the book. And I don't add things she didn't say. And I go, oh, you're right. I was kind of afraid of that. I do need to talk about procrastination proof. More like, thank you for that. So I just. I think I've learned to run toward things I'm afraid of. And then I think I've learned to say no to things. Like, take a pretty good stock of, like, oh, that's not gonna do it, or oh, that's not like I don't feel God's joy in that. I don't feel connected to that. Like that really, it really emptied me out. And then the last thing I'd say is holding on to the values I value. I value freedom. Like it's one of my core values. So if somebody said, hey, we're going to pay you X amount of dollars and you have to be at this one spot 36 times in a year, I would feel kind of constricted by that. And I might go, okay, that goes against my value of freedom. What does freedom look like in this? And so figuring out what your values are and then playing that game, you and I talk about that all the time. Like which are the metrics that matter, which are the games you're trying to play and who are you playing them with?

Craig Groeschel

So I want you to take what's in you. Because what I respect so much about you is you just, you tend to create a lot out of not much meaning. You weren't handed a lot through and you had some opportunities that you and some very important people along the way, but you tend to go find opportunities where others miss them. I think there are a lot of people out there that would say, I'd like to be somewhere like you, impacting people in the way that you are. Maybe not speaking in writing, but something that's valuable. Can you take what's in you and just kind of talk to the emerging leader out there and give them some advice?

John Acuff

Yeah, I mean I think there's again, I would say like, what does it look like for you to make this easy for yourself? So like a good start, an easy on ramp to that would be find somebody in your circle that has that kind of thing and go humbly ask them some questions. You mentioned that I've had the benefit of leaders. I have like Brad Lomenick poured into me. Dan Cathy, I bumped into Dan Cathy, my father in law, my own father. So I think that's a good place to start. I think sometimes we think we have to do it alone. And so I would just say do that. I would say be a collector of ideas. I think that it's easier to create whether you want to do a book or a speech or a team or whatever. When you create with the building blocks of ideas. Like I don't believe in writer's block, I believe in idea bankruptcy. Like if you can't create something, it just means you haven't been curious enough. So like what would it look like for you to Even just open up a note on your phone where it's like, oh, this is something I'm curious. For a solid year last year, I kept an owner's manual. Meaning I was like, if anybody should have a John Acuff owner's manual, it's John Acupuncture. So anytime something went well in my life, I wrote it down. I collected 300 things just because I felt like. And it was small things. To big things. Small things. Like, don't go to the far left TSA line at the Nashville airport, because all the flight attendants go to that one and they all cut you. It's like, 11 flight attendants will come in. You're like. And so that's small. It's minor, but it makes my day easier 50 times a year. To big things like, don't bring up a serious conversation with your wife right before bed, because what I've just done in that moment is downloaded stress to her. I go, hey, we gotta talk about the taxes. And she goes, bing. And I go, good night. I sleep like a baby. She's wide awake. So now we have a soundtrack where we say, that's a coffee conversation. That's a 9am where we're both focused conversation. So, like, get curious about what makes you work well, because then you're going to be able to lead out of that. You're going to be able to say, like, oh, this helped me. I think it'll help other people. Every book I've ever written has been, I found a problem in my life, and I spent years trying to find a solution. So I was a procrastinator. Didn't write a single book until I was 34. Wrote 12 cents. Like, okay, I dialed that in. I wonder if other people have that problem. And then you find them and you go, oh, they do. And then you create something out of that. I think that's a really fun way to lead, because then you're leading out of you and you're actually helping real people.

Craig Groeschel

Well, the book is procrastination proof. I want to give some copies away. This one happens to be signed if you hop over to YouTube and type in the comments section. And I want to be procrastination proof. Is that good?

John Acuff

Perfect.

Craig Groeschel

Perfect. I want to be procrastination proof. We'll give away five copies. I think we only have one, so four. Unsigned.

John Acuff

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Craig Groeschel

Like, valuable person, whoever you are, you are the lucky one.

John Acuff

And then, Craig, if somebody heard those traps and is like, I wonder which one I'll struggle with. We have A simple quiz@johnacoff.com quiz John Acuff. So you answer a couple questions, we'll help you figure out which one's gonna get you.

Craig Groeschel

Yeah, I'll give you a chance to even tell other ways they can find you. But. But we share the same faith. And as a follower of Jesus, how does that play into your theology of procrastination?

John Acuff

Oh, I mean, it plays into everything I do. I always feel like it's like, how does Jesus play into breathing? I'm like, oh, man, Every day, for me, I just feel this holy urgency. Meaning, like, I love the parable where there's five talents, two talents, one talent. And it says they immediately put it to work. It doesn't say, so then they spent nine months figuring out, like, they were already in motion.

Craig Groeschel

They were hustlers.

John Acuff

They were hustlers. And then they came back and there was a party, There was a celebration.

Craig Groeschel

Threw that in.

John Acuff

Because they are. They are. And then. So a lot of what I do is I try to help the people that have a talent buried go find a shovel. So that's like. That's how I think about it. And then I have this urgency of, if we truly believe we have the Holy Spirit, we truly believe we're connected to the Creator of all space and time. Time. We should be amazing. We should be the most excellent because we have, like, who I have access. Like, so when somebody goes, where did the idea. Where did the phrase soundtracks come from? It's a really good handle. They don't want to hear the answer. Like, oh, I received it. It was a gift. Like, the best creativity I have is received, not forced. And as a believer, like, what a joy that is. And then I don't have to try to get fed on the back end. Like, I've already been fed. Like, I show up full. So then, like, then you're not using an audience. That changed it, too. Like, I would. If I had, like, man, every pastor in the world, I'd be like, man, get fed on the prep thing. Don't get fed by the audience, because then you just get to serve them and you show up full. And a leader who shows up full and is not trying to, like, optimize the reaction of the audience or feed off the like. And you and I bump into leaders all the time. We go, oh, like, they're not full right now, and there's 80, and they're still trying to get fed. So for me, man, I just feel like when I'm really in the zone, I'm Full. I'm on the move and I know who I am before I even get in the room.

Craig Groeschel

Yeah, well, it shows you do have your identity drives, your values and all that you do. There's a lot that people could learn from you. You've got the assessment that they can get. You're doing stage and page, page and

John Acuff

stage, stage and page, stage and page.

Craig Groeschel

Teaching people to grow in their communication and in their writing potentially. If they want to publish a book, if they want to find out about those or other ways, how do they get in touch with you?

John Acuff

Yeah, it's super easy. Jonacuff.com stage is the URL for that. And then got a website, Jonacuff.com, and you've been on the podcast. If you want to start with episodes, start with Craig's Got to interview Craig on All It Takes is a Goal. And then. Yeah, and then again going into LinkedIn, it's kind of the nerdy version of social media, but I'm a big LinkedIn guy.

Craig Groeschel

Know that fits your nerdiness.

John Acuff

It does. Look at me in this button down.

Craig Groeschel

You look great.

John Acuff

I don't even have like a cool, like, hoodie on right now.

Craig Groeschel

If you're, if you're listening, not watching, you look like high end nerd.

John Acuff

Well, here's what's funny at gls. The first time I spoke there, I was in a suit with no tie. And backstage, Craig goes, well, John Auff speaking fee has gone up like. And I died laughing because you were right. Like the last time you saw me, I was probably like, like in, you know, like tennis shoes and like a T shirt that had a funny, like, queso joke. There you go. You're like, all right, good for you, all grown up.

Craig Groeschel

Yeah. Well, you look like an adult now, so congratulations on your impact and appreciate your friendship. You can go over and comment. I want to be procrastination proof. And guess what? Today you took a step forward and got a little bit better, which is really, really good news because we know, and it's true that everyone wins when the leader gets better. Well, if you enjoyed today's conversation, I want to share something with you that I think you'll love. Our team put together a list of 44 leadership books we recommend most often, and you can grab the full list for free@cglp.com leadershipbooks so whether you're looking to grow personally, lead a team, or just stay sharp as a leader, this list will give you a great place to start. That's cglp.com leadershipbooks.