Greta Johnson

House of the Dragon is back and so is the official podcast. Join hosts Greta Johnson and Jason Concepcion

Rebecca Lavoy

on HBO Max's official House of the Dragon podcast as they break down every

Greta Johnson

episode and speak with the show's writers,

Rebecca Lavoy

cast and crew members.

Greta Johnson

It's an all out war in Westeros

Rebecca Lavoy

and you never know what to expect when battling with dragons.

Greta Johnson

Watch the official Game of Thrones podcast House of the Dragon on HBO Max or or listen wherever you get your podcasts.

Morgan Stewart

Hey everyone, it's me, Morgan Stewart and I have a new podcast called the Morgan Stewart Show. Join me each week as I talk about pop culture, fashion, my personal life and just a warning, I'm gonna be giving my opinion on everything. I'll also have some really fun guests to join in on the fun. The Morgan Stewart show is out now. Listen and follow wherever you get your podcasts or watch full video on YouTube.

Kevin Flynn

To get the crime writers on after show right now, go to patreon.com partnersincrime

Rebecca Lavoy

I'm Rebecca Lavoy and this is Crime Writers. Crime Writers. On is the original True Crime Review podcast that digs into true crime, pop culture, other podcasts, and on this episode, journalists and police search for a retailer who's been selling a powerful poison to those on an online forum looking to end their lives. We'll discuss the CBC podcast Hunting the Suicide Salesman. Joining me to get that done and more is true crime author, TV journalist and host of these Are Stories podcast. My husband and the love of my life, it's Kevin Flynn. Hello, Kevin.

Kevin Flynn

Hello, Rebecca.

Rebecca Lavoy

Also with us, private investigator, certified pet detective, resident cat lady, and author of the Piper Green series of cozy mysteries. It's Laura Bricker. Hi, Laura.

Laura Bricker

Meow.

Toby Ball

Oh my God.

Rebecca Lavoy

You know what I decided?

Laura Bricker

I decided to mix it up today all.

Kevin Flynn

Someone had a brain fart when her name got called.

Rebecca Lavoy

She's a second language, you know.

Kevin Flynn

I speak cat.

Rebecca Lavoy

And finally, all the way from Valencia, Spain, author of the City trilogy, host of RIP Current, more like Ancient Faliens. And the podcast soon to be a major motion picture, strange Arrivals. It's Toby Ball. Que pasa, Toby?

Toby Ball

Hey, I don't even know how to follow up on Varrock.

Laura Bricker

Help me out.

Toby Ball

I was gonna talk about how I was still thinking about the Knicks, but that seems like kind of small potatoes after that.

Rebecca Lavoy

It is. It is. Kevin. This is Thursday's program. What's coming up on next week's show.

Kevin Flynn

So on Monday we're going to talk about the Netflix documentary Maternal Instinct. And then on Thursday we'll be talking about The. The podcast. It's an Audible original. It's by Leon Nayfaw. It's called Only Fantasy. It's about Only fans.

Rebecca Lavoy

I feel like it's around. There's, like, a cycle of Leon Nayfock. It's, like, every eight months or so, Right?

Kevin Flynn

He's a busy dude.

Rebecca Lavoy

Yeah. Yeah.

Kevin Flynn

You know, I just. I haven't listened yet, but when we talked about vaping, Leon Nayfock, like, confessed his, like, nicotine addiction. And so now I'm just wondering, and when I listen to this, are you gonna find out that Leon Nayfawk sells photographs of his feet?

Rebecca Lavoy

Oh, that would be weird.

Toby Ball

Seems like it would be weird you'd

Laura Bricker

be cutting in on me and Toby's business.

Rebecca Lavoy

I know.

Toby Ball

I'm like some weird, weird fetish of the ugly feet.

Laura Bricker

Yep.

Rebecca Lavoy

So, Kevin, there's something I wanted to tell you about because I've been able to educate the Internet this week about something.

Kevin Flynn

All right.

Rebecca Lavoy

As you know, Mariska Hargitay's been getting a lot of love on social media. Her team won. She's doing this one woman play on Broadway that's, like, an interactive play. And the Internet, Twitter was all excited to see her in the. The. Apparently, the guy who plays her therapist showed up, and she ended up.

Kevin Flynn

In the play?

Rebecca Lavoy

No, in the theater. And she ended up, like, going over and hugging him as people were taking their seats. And, like, I guess she moved somebody around so that she could interact with him in the. In the play or something. I don't know, but I would.

Kevin Flynn

Therapist? You mean an SVU?

Rebecca Lavoy

Her SVU therapist.

Kevin Flynn

Mr. Noodle.

Rebecca Lavoy

I have been able to tell the Internet that it's Mr. Noodle, and everybody's mind is blown.

Kevin Flynn

That's Mr. Noodle, everybody. If you watch Sesame Street, Elmo's world.

Rebecca Lavoy

Yes.

Toby Ball

Mr. Noodles. A therapist.

Rebecca Lavoy

Yes. He plays a therapist in SVU who's been treating Mariska Hargitay's character, Olivia Benson, ever since she was kidnapped and almost raped by Louis.

Kevin Flynn

That's not the craziest child TV guest star appearance in history. Did you guys watch Sesame Street?

Toby Ball

Of course.

Kevin Flynn

Lara's like, eh, I don't know. I had a generator. So the guy who played Luis on Sesame street made an appearance as a janitor at a fertility clinic. And he was pushing a mop around. And you could tell at that fertility clinic that mop had seen things.

Rebecca Lavoy

Yes.

Kevin Flynn

And so had Luis. Apparently so.

Morgan Stewart

Yeah.

Rebecca Lavoy

Also, Maria's played a judge on the show.

Kevin Flynn

She has.

Rebecca Lavoy

Gina has played a victim, and she's been a Villain. Yeah. There's a lot of Sesame street crossover in svu.

Toby Ball

That's amazing. Did. Did Luis have, like, a buddy who lived in the dumpster?

Kevin Flynn

No, he did.

Rebecca Lavoy

Are you referring to Oscar?

Toby Ball

Oscar the Grouch, man, Oscar the Grouch

Rebecca Lavoy

had the best clap back on social media that I saw in the last couple.

Toby Ball

Oh, really? What did Oscar have to say?

Kevin Flynn

I know Elmo is getting shit about basketball.

Rebecca Lavoy

A lot of shit. Because Elmo was like, I hope both teams have fun.

Toby Ball

Oh, yeah.

Rebecca Lavoy

Oscar was like, shut the fuck up, Elmo. I also something else, Kevin, that I wanted to mention to you.

Kevin Flynn

What's that?

Rebecca Lavoy

Somebody on Twitter said yesterday that they really feel like there should be more TV made. Prestige tv, where the Harlem Globetrotters make guest appearances.

Kevin Flynn

That's amazing.

Toby Ball

What was that in?

Rebecca Lavoy

Kevin has a thing on. These are their stories. Our other podcast, on one of the episodes that we covered, he always does a These. He always does a. Hey, it's that guy where he runs down the actors and other things they've been in. And one of the actors was in. Kevin, would you like to explain?

Kevin Flynn

Yeah. He was in an episode of the ABC After School special. Again, the. Either of you. Do you remember that? The ABC After School.

Laura Bricker

I do remember that. I do.

Kevin Flynn

There was one, and it was called Read between the Lines.

Rebecca Lavoy

What was it about?

Kevin Flynn

It was about an illiterate toy maker who has a rabbit. He's between the lines. No, it's an illiterate toy maker who gets the rights to his invention stolen and his grandson helps him get it back with the help of the Harlem Globetrotters. I don't know why. Wow. The Harlem Globetrotters made an appearance on Gilligan's island one time.

Toby Ball

Did you see? They were on the White Shadow when Carver High School went on a winning streak and got cocky. And coach brought in the Harlem Globetrotters who were working at a charity car wash, if I remember correctly. He's like, I'm bringing these car wash guys, and they're gonna kick your ass. And then they show up and they like, Magic Circle.

Rebecca Lavoy

Yeah.

Toby Ball

You know, Salami and Thorpe and Coolidge and all those guys. An Italian guy on the team named Salami.

Rebecca Lavoy

They did.

Kevin Flynn

They had all those scenes where they're all, like, showering together at the same time, facing each other like, oh, my God.

Rebecca Lavoy

The White Shadow was wild. Name the White Shadow.

Toby Ball

The White Shadow. Yeah. That was a great. I used to watch that show religiously.

Rebecca Lavoy

Me, too. And for those who haven't picked up on the clues, the White Shadow is the White basketball coach at a predominantly black school.

Toby Ball

Predominantly black school where they've got two white players on the team, an Italian named Salami and a Jewish guy named Goldstein.

Kevin Flynn

Wow.

Rebecca Lavoy

Deep guts with Toby Ball.

Kevin Flynn

Ah, well, at least we don't have any stereotypes.

Rebecca Lavoy

All right, Kevin, we need to transition into something tougher to talk about.

Kevin Flynn

Oh, you mean. Do you mean this isn't gonna be a laugh a minute?

Rebecca Lavoy

It is not. Okay, so you ready to talk about the podcast we're gonna talk about?

Kevin Flynn

All right, let's call Mr. Noodle in and brace ourselves. Let's do it.

Rebecca Lavoy

Leading off, I said, what are they doing with them?

Laura Bricker

We need to test them. Test them for what? For what he's taken.

Damon Fairless

One of the vehicles that had shown up was a mobile lab, so they

Laura Bricker

tested the glasses and said, it's sodium nitrite.

Rebecca Lavoy

Relatives of those who died by suicide discovered their loved ones had been active in online forums for those looking for ways to end their lives. They were directed to a retailer selling fatal quantities of sodium nitrate to people in crisis in more than 40 countries.

Kevin Flynn

So I just went to the website

Toby Ball

and saw us out and, oh, this is great.

Rebecca Lavoy

How easy was that to get hold of?

Kevin Flynn

And yeah, I didn't post it immediately, but the website reminded me I had

Rebecca Lavoy

something in my shopping cart. So at that point, I was really

Toby Ball

low and I just bought it.

Rebecca Lavoy

Police and journalists hunted down Kenneth Law, who admitted to selling to hundreds of people worldwide. But authorities wanted to know whether Law was just providing a lethal product or whether he was actively pushing people in crisis to take it. Everyone gets a choose. Why are we choosing it? Why are we seeking it out? Why are all of these people going to seek this guy? The CBC podcast Hunting the Suicide Salesman recounts the effort to stop law and shut down the business of selling sodium nitrate. Host Damon Fairless goes beyond the criminal investigation and takes an unusually frank and intimate examination of the issue of suicide, including causes, prevention efforts, and the hidden online world for those who consider ending their lives. Spoiler alert. We're gonna be talking about plot points from Hunting the Suicide Salesman. So if you wanna remain spoiler free, go to the estimated timecode in our show notes for our thumbs up or thumbs down reviews. So, Laura, this is a quick podcast, five episodes. It's obviously by Damon Fareless, a host I loved in Hunting Warhead, which I think is one of my top 10 podcasts of all time. He sounds great. It sounds great. But what do you think about sort of the length and scope of this reporting?

Laura Bricker

I think this was the right length to Tell this story. It gave us the ability to zoom in and hear from family members of people that died by suicide and zoom out and get this global impact of how far Kenneth Law's actions and his suicide substance spread globally. And the reporting and the journalism was very well done. They did some things. I was, like, kind of jealous of some of their reporting techniques that were authorized in this, But I think it was something that.

Rebecca Lavoy

Oh, you mean the reporter who's allowed to go and try to buy suicide medication from the guy? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Damon Fairless

So you just tell the police, James asks, that you don't know why this person has bought it? Ken says yes. And he adds, it's even easier when he's shipping internationally since the UK authorities have no jurisdiction in Canada. They're not going to bring me over to the UK for this. He says with a chuckle.

Laura Bricker

It's too small, you know, and this is something that really is a topic that is hard to frame. How do you talk about suicide in a way that is, in this case, you know, highlighting this issue while being respectful and aware of people that have experienced this among family and friends and their loved ones? And also, you know, how do you do this in a sensitive way like that? And I think this was able to do that. I think, you know, we had the family members, then we go into Kenneth Law, we find out a little bit about his background, we find out about the investigation, how they bring him to court, what they charge him with. And then the sort of coda to all of this is, let's talk about what we can do to help people that are feeling like they would like to end their lives by suicide. And I think that last episode, that coda gave some really good information, because a lot of times we hear this and we think, gee, this is like a horror, horrible situation. Like, what can we do? Well, here's. Here's what we can do. And then at the end, we hear Damon's personal reflection on why this story resonated with him. So I think a lot of times we listen to these. These podcasts where it's like, they're like, we have to have 10 episodes. You could have stretched this out. We got the whole story. We got everything in those five episodes.

Rebecca Lavoy

Kevin, I want to ask you, because you were a former TV journalist, and I know that there are not rules, but kind of, like, guidelines around discussing suicide in the news and in reporting. And I think Damon Farrell is a very, like, bold thing here, where he's like, I'm not gonna give you the traditional trigger Warning. Cause this is something I really think we need to talk about. How do you feel about how that was handled?

Kevin Flynn

I thought it was great, actually. I mean, it's a trigger warning nonetheless, even though you don't call it that. But I think the way he framed it was more like an invitation to talk about it. This was a challenging listen. No doubt it was. And it is not for everyone. And he says it like basically saying, if you're not in the right mind space for this, then this isn't for you.

Rebecca Lavoy

Move along.

Kevin Flynn

Yeah, move along. There's plenty of other things that you can listen to.

Damon Fairless

It might not be what you want to listen to if you're not in the right place, but I'm also really hesitant to warn you away because I think we do that too often. And I think we need to have this conversation, so I'll leave it up to you.

Kevin Flynn

As he points out, we don't really explore the issue of suicide in a way that doesn't just try to avoid the painful stuff. Yeah, I like to think of it like this. Instead of picking at a scab, we're just going to put it under the microscope and observe it that way in a different way to the extent that you can take the emotion out of it and sort of look at it from different sides and like, okay, but I mean, still very human. We hear from a lot of different people who have suffered the loss of a loved one, who. We also hear different people from sort of different aspects of life and from the. The situation, but no doubt getting into it. And I'm sure we'll talk about certain aspects of it, things that worked and didn't work, but it just setting it up as like, okay, it's. We're going to be thoughtful about this, but we are going to go there. And I think it's beneficial to do that. And so that kind of imitation gets us, you know. Okay, I'm in. Let's, let's. Let's dig it out.

Rebecca Lavoy

Yeah. So, Toby, I think a lot of outlets wouldn't touch this story. And I think Damon Fareless has a great track record of reporting a very difficult subject matter in a way that is incredibly compelling. He made Hunting Warhead, as we said. What do you think about his approach here?

Toby Ball

I mean, I think the thing with this topic is that you need to have the right person leading it. It's not that it shouldn't be talked about, but it's tricky to talk about well and responsibly and, you know, in a way that's not timid, but is kind of deliberate and knows what it's trying to do. And I think that's. That. That's what he's able to accomplish, which I think is. Is pretty remarkable, quite honestly, given sort of the range of stuff that ends up being brought up here. Because he's dealing with, you know, families of people, he's talking to people who survived. You get people reading transcripts of people describing their last moments. This is like as heavy a stuff as it gets. You know, he's talking to people about the worst moments of their lives. Right. It's just done in this very sort of calm, mature way. Like, it's very impactful, but it's really just letting these people kind of talk. I thought it was just really interesting just to hear the way they talked about that stuff without having some kind of narrative put on top of it or trying to tease out different things. It's just like this is their experience and the way they describe it. So it's not like it's exactly perfect in every part, but it just feels like really top level stuff to me. I mean, it just seems. It seems like getting on a very, very difficult subject and approaching it in a way that's intelligent, mature, sort of confident in that. He doesn't feel like he has to impose things so much. He can let the people's interviews or communications or whatever sort of make their own points without intruding on that. So I thought that was really a plus stuff.

Rebecca Lavoy

I thought so too. I also think the sourcing in this podcast is incredible. I mean, the opening story that we hear is like, so devastating and so beautifully told by the family member of somebody who died by suicide. And as you said, he lets the subjects tell the story, but he doesn't do the thing where he plays endless amounts of tape and you just can't wait for it to be over. It's not that. In my opinion, it is very heavy. Heavy, Laura. Right. I mean, this isn't something that, you know, I mean, I listened while I was doing other things, which I always do when I'm listening to podcasts. But this isn't like a play out loud in the car on a road trip kind of podcast.

Laura Bricker

Well, I, I did. I listened to it in the car, but it was. I had to. I would, like, listen to an episode and then I would like, okay, I'm gonna listen to my, like, some light music for a little bit and make. Talk to somebody on the phone. And then I would listen to the next episode when I was on Another leg of wherever I was driving to around the state. I mean, it's definitely something that's important. It's an important issue to explore, but it's a heavy topic, and it's like one of those you kind of have to titrate out, especially if it's something that you've experienced, somebody that, you know has gone through this. It's suspenseful, it's heavy, it's intense. It's a very intense topic, and it's a very emotional topic. And it's. It's hard to hear, number one, what people have gone through and to think about, you know, finding loved ones in that situation, but then to hear about the manner of death when somebody ingests this sodium nitrate and what that was like, that was hard to listen to. But at the same time, I had never heard of that before. So I think that this was something that was really. I'm like, this is information that is good to have awareness of, but also at the same time, in small bites and pieces.

Rebecca Lavoy

Yeah. Kevin, I talked about sourcing a second ago. What do you think about the sort of proliferation of sources and voices in this podcast?

Kevin Flynn

Yeah, I mean, great job. I tried to touch on that earlier, is that we got to hear from a lot of different angles, but for something that's built around a law enforcement investigation. Did we hear from one cop?

Rebecca Lavoy

I don't think so.

Kevin Flynn

I don't think we heard from any cop or prosecutor. I mean, there was some tape from a press conference, but that isn't where they went with this. Right. But you got to. Not only did. Did we hear from people who lost loved ones to one of these sales of sodium nitrate, but we also hear from, you know, doctors who were, you know, involved in assisted. Medically assisted suicide.

Damon Fairless

Yeah.

Kevin Flynn

People who attempted suicide and now are presenting their views. We hear people talking about that and then who later died by suicide. And it's just interesting how the different ways they brought it around. They even had somebody talk about how he thought that that forum was beneficial to him because it provided a community. Now it's. You know, I think even Damien was like, well, people could argue with that about, you know, it's not exactly great. And it's true. It's a very imperfect forum for that. There is a small sliver of people that are in crisis or have these, you know, these thoughts. They don't feel like they can go to mom and dad.

Morgan Stewart

It's lonely.

Kevin Flynn

It's lonely. They feel like this is a place that they can go. And while many people Are there looking for instructions or are in a place where they could be toppled over to go that way? There's a small number of people that find comfort in that. That's a voice that I don't think you would hear.

Rebecca Lavoy

No, it was brave to put that in.

Kevin Flynn

It was brave to put that in there because it just sort of shows not only how complicated it is, but also there is a through line to that, which is that these people want to be understood. They're looking for some kind of comfort. And the impulsivity that. I mean, we know that statistically that a lot of suicide attempts, you know, they say 15 minutes earlier they were not thinking of actually killing themselves. There's a lot of impulsivity. And they said clicking on a mouse to buy that. Impulsive.

Rebecca Lavoy

Yeah. So, Kevin, I think we should transition to the business section without a joke.

Kevin Flynn

Yes.

Rebecca Lavoy

What do you think?

Kevin Flynn

If you're looking for podcasts that are not nearly as heavy.

Rebecca Lavoy

Yes.

Kevin Flynn

Then you can join us on Patreon.

Rebecca Lavoy

We're in the business section.

Damon Fairless

Yeah.

Kevin Flynn

It's patreon.com partnersincrimedia. You get all of our stuff at the leading off level. You get the crime writers on after show, Tobyball's Deep Dive Book Club podcast. Our advice podcast, Married with Podcast, Rebecca and Mel's True crime podcast, Something's Off. And if you're a Bricker scaler, you get all that, including Laura Bricker's Leave it to Bricker, in which Laura Bricker solves mysteries, or at least mysteries to her in her quaint AF town of Exeter, New Hampshire. If you join us at the let's do what we do level, you get episodes of Crime Riders on early and ad free. And if you are a deep Diver, you get all that and you get to be an exclusive sponsor of Toby Ball's Deep Dive Book Club. And just this week, Toby and his guests recorded their latest book. So make sure that you read Murderland so you can keep up with the discussion. Now, we also have an Amazon storefront where you can see some of our favorite things. Rebecca, what are this week's Amazon recommendations?

Rebecca Lavoy

Well, Kevin, I love my handheld red flag, yellow flag, green flag that I

Kevin Flynn

bought on Amazon, since, quite literally, you bought a red flag.

Rebecca Lavoy

I bought a red flag, a green flag and a yellow flag. It was a set.

Kevin Flynn

Okay.

Rebecca Lavoy

And that way when I'm recording my YouTube show and we're talking about somebody who sucks, I can take out my red flag and wave it around. We're talking about somebody who's awesome, like lawyer David Yannetti. I take out my green flag and wave it around.

Kevin Flynn

This is something every household should have.

Rebecca Lavoy

I agree.

Kevin Flynn

For when they start to gossip.

Rebecca Lavoy

Yep.

Kevin Flynn

And you like you when you're. When your girlfriend talks about the new boyfriend, pull out just all of a sudden, red flag. Take that red flag a little bit. Yeah, that's great. Toby, what are your listener inspired Toby Ball's deep cut recommendations.

Toby Ball

I'm going to start off with one that you cannot get in Spain as far as I can tell, and that is Bush's best 8.3 ounce canned vegetarian baked beans. Source of plant based protein and fiber, low fat, gluten free, pack of 12.

Rebecca Lavoy

I eat them.

Toby Ball

A lot of.

Rebecca Lavoy

I didn't order those, but I ate those 12. I eat Bush's baked beans all the time. Do I not, Kevin?

Kevin Flynn

You do for breakfast with my eggs?

Rebecca Lavoy

Yeah.

Toby Ball

They're so good. And I'm gonna go down.

Kevin Flynn

You can't get baked beans in Spain.

Toby Ball

Well, you probably can somewhere, but not at the local consumer to make them.

Rebecca Lavoy

Yeah.

Toby Ball

Got to bake them. Making baked beans.

Damon Fairless

Come on.

Kevin Flynn

Molasses and bacon. Come on now. You could do that.

Toby Ball

It's the bean part that would be harder.

Rebecca Lavoy

I don't like homemade baked beans.

Toby Ball

Can you get. I wonder if you can get molasses here. It's weird the shit you can get and not get in Spain. If you guys want chocolate cereal, you're in fucking luck, dude, because there's a lot of chocolate cereals here. Go Believe bottle opener. Magnetic beer opener with fridge magnet. Home kitchen tool. Personalized refrigerator magnet. Bottle opener for beer and soda.

Kevin Flynn

Lo.

Toby Ball

I don't know if it's lol. It's gonna like it's funny or what the. The last word is supposed to be,

Kevin Flynn

but Go Believe Lift off.

Toby Ball

It's Go Believe bottle opener off the

Laura Bricker

lid with the bottle opener.

Kevin Flynn

Lo.

Toby Ball

You think it's the beginning of lift off?

Laura Bricker

Yeah, I don't know. I just made that up. You did.

Kevin Flynn

Hello.

Rebecca Lavoy

Hello.

Laura Bricker

How are you?

Damon Fairless

Surprised.

Toby Ball

Loft off. It's a. It's. It's a. It's a fucking bottle opener.

Damon Fairless

All right.

Kevin Flynn

That's it. We love it. You can shop us first when you go to Amazon. Amazon.com shop crimewriterson. We earn commissions on qualified purchases.

Rebecca Lavoy

All right, Kevin.

Kevin Flynn

Yeah.

Rebecca Lavoy

Before we end the business section, do we have any Patreon patron saints of the week this week?

Kevin Flynn

Our Patreon patron saints are Tara Hef and Sav Haley. Bless you.

Laura Bricker

Finally.

Rebecca Lavoy

Yes, finally we got Sav Haley, our best looking listener.

Kevin Flynn

Sav has been, no offense, Tara, I'm

Rebecca Lavoy

sure you're also very, very good looking.

Kevin Flynn

Sav has been a longtime supporter, and the last time I saw her, she said, I was wondering why I've never been picked for patron saint. But then I realized that on Patreon, I'm like, Uncle Jesse or something. It was like she has some funny name, which is why she's not in there as Sav. So I never. I keep looking for her, but I finally just said, sav, I don't know what your name is in there, but I'm just gonna. You're just gonna be patron saint of the week, so I can just end this great mystery.

Rebecca Lavoy

Do you guys remember what Sav was wearing the first time we met her?

Kevin Flynn

Yeah, she was wearing a T shirt that said, I enjoy a feud among subcultures.

Rebecca Lavoy

That's right. That's right, girl.

Toby Ball

I have my own heart.

Rebecca Lavoy

She goes way back to the beginning of the show. Tara and Sav. Tara, I would love to hear your story as well. Write us and I'll talk about you next week if you want. Thank you so much for supporting us on Patreon. We so appreciate your support. It's patrons who are basically the engine behind this show. It's how we can continue to afford to do it, and it's how we make it happen. There's expenses associated with making the show, and you help cover those. So, Kevin, does this end our business section?

Kevin Flynn

Yes, Sav just messaged me. She's under Rankin Fitch. Oh, Rankin.

Rebecca Lavoy

What does that mean, Fitch?

Kevin Flynn

I think it's like Bill Rankin and Atticus Finch. Oh, it's from. It goes. It's from Runaway Jury.

Rebecca Lavoy

Oh, that's her name. Rankin Fitch.

Kevin Flynn

Yes. She said, I signed up at a very Gene Hackman time of my life.

Rebecca Lavoy

Okay, nice, nice. All right.

Toby Ball

How did. How did she know to text you right now? As we're talking about her?

Kevin Flynn

I just was looking up her picture on Instagram, which sounds super creepy.

Rebecca Lavoy

It does sound super creepy.

Laura Bricker

That's what I do every day, all day long, Kevin.

Rebecca Lavoy

And also, she grew up in that place where all the mermaids are.

Kevin Flynn

Yes, Sav's a great, very interesting person. Yeah.

Rebecca Lavoy

All right, Kevin.

Damon Fairless

Yeah.

Rebecca Lavoy

Does thus end the business section?

Kevin Flynn

Thus ends the business section.

Rebecca Lavoy

Let's fade that music out.

Morgan Stewart

Hey, everyone, it's me, Morgan Stewart, and I have a new podcast called the Morgan Stewart Show. Join me each week as I talk about pop culture, fashion, my personal life, and just a warning, I'm gonna be giving my opinion on everything. I'll also have some really fun Guests to join in on the the Morgan Stewart show is out now. Listen and follow wherever you get your podcasts or watch full video on YouTube.

Rebecca Lavoy

So, Kevin, who's the sponsor of this fine podcast?

Kevin Flynn

Oh, we're sponsored by Quint.

Rebecca Lavoy

Shut up.

Kevin Flynn

Yeah. Summer is the perfect time to rethink the clothes that you've been reaching for. Every day you take all those clothes that you bought from Quince in the winter, all those nice sweaters, you put them to one side of the closet or in a different drawer and you bring out all of last year's linens. Get the new ones to add to it.

Morgan Stewart

Yeah.

Kevin Flynn

Rebecca, what have you recently purchased?

Rebecca Lavoy

Well, you know, I love a linen shirt.

Kevin Flynn

Yes.

Rebecca Lavoy

And I have a couple of Quince linen shirts. The European linen I love. The dark blue with the white stripes is my favorite one. I have a white one. I've got a pink one. I've got a solid blue one. They are the most versatile, cute shirts. I wear it over a bathing suit. I wear it out to dinner. We were on vacation, remember? I wore a linen shirt every day.

Kevin Flynn

Yes, yes. And in fact, for that vacation, you purchased me two pairs of swimming trunks.

Rebecca Lavoy

Yes.

Kevin Flynn

Bathing suit, whatever. Whatever you call it.

Rebecca Lavoy

Yes.

Kevin Flynn

And I'll say that, ladies, that if you purchase one for your man, be sure to get the short one. Get the short one. Tell them you're not an 80s surfer. You don't need down to your knees. Look great, look elevated and save money. And by the way, Quince is not just about clothing. It's your destination. For elevated essentials across the home, kitchen, bedding and beyond.

Rebecca Lavoy

Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com crime for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too.

Kevin Flynn

Bonsure.

Rebecca Lavoy

Hi, that's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com crime for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com crime okay, imagine this.

Greta Johnson

A honeybee is out here doing her thing in an orchard, lands on a

Morgan Stewart

mystery apple blossom, then carries that pollen

Greta Johnson

over to a honeycrisp tree.

Morgan Stewart

Fast forward a few months and no

Rebecca Lavoy

exaggeration, something amazing is born.

Greta Johnson

The sugar bee apple.

Rebecca Lavoy

Packed with notes of honey, caramel and molasses, plus an extra crisp crunch.

Greta Johnson

Sugar bee apples are perfect for snacking,

Rebecca Lavoy

baking and everything in between.

Greta Johnson

Download our new free recipe book and find a store near you@hellosugarbee.com Sugar Bee

Rebecca Lavoy

apples naturally sweet from bee to you.

Greta Johnson

The fastest self Care Clean Hair K18 Air Wash Dry Shampoo is the first biotech powered dry shampoo. It instantly eliminates odor and reduces oil and sweat for fresh hair and scalp for up to three days. And no white cast, starchy buildup or heavy fragrances. K18 studied the science of fresh hair. So you never have to worry about wash day again. Shop at Sephora or get 10% off your first purchase@k18hair.com with code podcast. That's codepodcast@k18hair.com.

Rebecca Lavoy

So, Lara, you mentioned it earlier, this sort of undercover work that the journalist ends up doing here. Can you flesh out what exactly happens there and what you thought about it?

Laura Bricker

Yeah, I think this was amazing. So, you know, Kenneth Law has his website where he's selling the sodium nitrate, and then for $200, you can get a consultation with him about what products might be good for you. And the journalism team gets the okay to go in and pose as a prospective client and see what he's going to say. And so you hear the story that Kenneth Law gives a prospective customer about, no, I've been doing this, I'm sending it everywhere, and I don't get, don't worry, and it's no big deal. And basically kind of laying out how to use this and how to get it and how it's not hard to ship, and he's done this in all these places. But then when they go back and interview him and they identify themselves as journalists, now he's all like, oh, like, no, I don't know what anybody does with this after I send it to, like, if that's their choice.

Damon Fairless

Law responds, I'm not assisting anything. I'm selling a product. James pushes back, arguing that Law knows the product is used for suicide. Law responds saying it's his customer's choice, that he isn't forcing anyone to do anything. He also says he'll continue to sell his product because his batch hasn't run out. I have inventory to sell.

Laura Bricker

He says, I think it was really interesting to go in under the guise of being that customer. It made me a little jealous. I always have to identify myself as a private investigator. Like, ethically, I can't go in and spy on somebody and pretend to be somebody I'm not. I have to identify who I am and who I'm working for. But I dream of being able to go undercover like this. And I was like, this sounds so interesting. But I think it was interesting because at that point, there was a period where Kenneth Law was giving these interviews and trying to sort of justify, you know, and explain what he was doing. So I thought it was. I thought it was interesting, you know, from that journalism perspective, that they were given the okay to do that because I. I don't know. Rebecca, in your newsroom, would you be

Greta Johnson

able to go in, like.

Toby Ball

Yeah.

Laura Bricker

And I just felt like that's not something. I mean, I know as a PI I can't do it, but as a journalist, I'm like, usually you have to identify who you are. So the fact that they were able to do that was pretty interesting.

Rebecca Lavoy

It's in our code of ethics at my station that we can't do that. So, Toby, you know, we hear about Kenneth Law. He's this guy who works in a kitchen. Sodium nitrate is also apparently like a food preservative or something that's kind of the commercial use for it at a

Toby Ball

different, you know, purity.

Rebecca Lavoy

Exactly, exactly.

Kevin Flynn

Not 99.9% pure.

Rebecca Lavoy

Exactly. And there is this kind of, like, moral question that the podcast raises, which I super appreciate it. I mean, there are people who really. And please excuse me, listeners for saying this, but the podcast covers it. People who wake up in the morning wanting to die every single day. And then we. And we hear from, you know, this guy who is a medically assisted suicide person who believes it's their right to do so. So there is that argument that we do hear in the podcast. The podcast isn't making that argument. It's just one that we hear as part of the examination of this issue. And then you have Kenneth Law thoughts.

Toby Ball

Yeah, well, you know, I guess my thought was, you know, if it was a person and, like, his mission was to be able to, you know, empower people who wanted to end their lives in a way that was, you know, relatively painless or whatever. Like, I still think that's not. Not the way to go, but at least, you know, it would make a little bit of sense. That's clearly not his thing. He's just trying to sell his product, which, you know, comes through because he pretends he's somebody else on. On this forum and, you know, recommends his product as being the best thing to use and, you know, this is where you can buy it and. And all this stuff.

Rebecca Lavoy

So he's just meeting a need, Toby. He's meeting a marketplace need.

Kevin Flynn

He's got inventory to move, right?

Toby Ball

Yeah, he found. He found a niche, and that's what.

Rebecca Lavoy

What he says to the guy, right? And he's like, hey, do you ever send this to England? He goes, all the time. So shameless.

Damon Fairless

Yeah.

Toby Ball

So he's basically just trying to make a buck off of people's suicidal feelings. I mean, it really. It's the worst kind of preying on people who are vulnerable. And I think what the podcast sort of makes this point is that often this is a. It's a fairly quick decision. Right. And that it's not that by enabling somebody to do it quickly, you're. You're sort of removing barriers that often keep people from doing it. So it's more than just sort of providing a method. It's. It's making it easy for people to do it in ways in which, when there are barriers, whether they're intentional or unintentional, often prevent people from doing it. And they, they do talk about how people who survive will talk about how they're in. I can't remember he put a percentage to it or whatever. But a lot of people, like, their feeling is. Is regret that they had done it, like. Like wishing that they hadn't. So I mean, it just seems completely morally indefensible. Quite honest.

Rebecca Lavoy

Yeah.

Toby Ball

And he doesn't apparently even try. I mean, he's just like, you know, he's. He's trying to make a buck and this happens to be the way he wants to do it. It's. It's just hard to wrap your head around somebody who's that sort of amoral, craven in their dealings.

Rebecca Lavoy

Yeah.

Kevin Flynn

Because he sounds like a jerk, actually.

Laura Bricker

Yeah.

Kevin Flynn

I just put it there. A pots. A pud. Yeah. You know, it's funny because I would have expected this guy actually not to be as. As old as he is. I. This seems like something that like a crazy 30 year old would. But I. But you would expect that he would have this long history of scams and cons and like somebody that like would go from one con to another and just kind of went up to this and not to say that he sort of like naturally fell into it, but like, can you imagine being sort of like this chef at a fancy hotel

Rebecca Lavoy

and you're like, not even a chef. Like you're cutting carrots like all day.

Kevin Flynn

Okay. You could do the cheese platter.

Laura Bricker

Yeah.

Kevin Flynn

No, he was not. He was not terribly good. But he, I mean, you're right, he had like his talking points down and the idea that he actually was also Goldberg, you know, that sort of mystery that he finally confessed to that when he did his allocution when he was sentenced. But I'm like wondering like, how does a local cop even start to investigate this? Right? You call up the, you know, the local police and you're like, well, you know, my loved One committed suicide, and here's the receipt from where they got the money. You know, and it's. We look. They all the people who are there, like, they all. Citizen sleuthed. They go on the forum, they see how bad it is, how widespread it is, what's the recourse? It just seemed like there was. I'm surprised because it just seemed like there was no way to sort of coordinate that. Yeah, it definitely seemed like, you know, law enforcement in multiple countries were sort of on it. And to the way that, you know, certainly the customs Department, Customs was completely on it. They flagged it. And then what happened? Those local cops knocked on doors. Are you okay? Even Damon got a, you know, a visit for, you know, purchasing the. The items for his stories.

Damon Fairless

The police had come to do a wellness check. After I explained I was reporting on it, one of the cops told me that Border Services had flagged my order as soon as it reached customs. Since Laude's arrest, police have continued to do checks like these whenever Border Services alerts them to an import. Over the years, they've done dozens, and in a few cases, they've been too late.

Kevin Flynn

You know, he certainly found a place where he could be almost untouchable.

Rebecca Lavoy

Yeah. Lara Damon does tell a very personal story at the end of the podcast. You touched on it earlier. Do you think that that works? Like, can you just unpack it a little bit for listeners who might want to hear about it and not listen to it, maybe?

Laura Bricker

Right. So, you know, we go through the investigation, we go through hearing from family members, and then that coda at the end is like, how can we help somebody? Or how can we be there if somebody is considering death by suicide? And, you know, it was an interesting choice that he talks about somebody that's, you know, going out to this bridge and this particular bridge that is, you know, we have one near us, the Piscataqua River Bridge. And as a journalist, I often covered people jumping off of that bridge to end their lives. And they talk about. And then he shares, you know, I've been that person. Damon shares this and what was going on in his life when he reached this critical point where he was feeling overwhelmed. To that point, it got to the

Damon Fairless

point I couldn't relax or find comfort anywhere. Sometimes it felt like I had an electric current passing through me, and my inner voice turned against me. It just would not let up about how shitty I was, how ugly, how stupid, how selfish and worthless and burdensome. Then I started thinking about dying, and

Laura Bricker

I thought that was really interesting to reveal that at the end and not the beginning. I feel like if it had been revealed at the beginning, I don't know if it would have landed. And I don't want to say it's not. It would have. It landed very authentically and very genuine in the way that it was shared at the end of this podcast. And I think at the beginning, it was more of like, we're listening to this really in depth reporting this, very sensitive reporting around this issue. But I think it takes away the stigma around suicide when somebody like that says, yeah, I've felt like that. And I considered whatever it was I considered when I was at this really low point. And I think talking about it in that way and being brave enough to talk about that on a podcast that you are hosting hopefully will go a long way towards, you know, somebody that listens to this being like, hey, it's. Yeah, there's. There's a shame. There's a stigma around talking about this. But at the same time, it really humanized this story at the end in a way that brought it home and felt very meaningful.

Kevin Flynn

Yeah, Laura, I agree with you. And we have seen this on different levels and different podcasts. I mean, somebody like Dan Tabursky will talk about, you know, in. In surviving Y2K, there's a personal story to that. Jane Marie does that in. In. In the Dream. And there are other ones people talk about sort of their personal connection to the story. Leon Nayfak, who we mentioned earlier. Right. And I'm sure there are a lot of other journalists out there that have experienced similar things. So you're right. It's just so authentic. And it landed the right way, his vulnerability, but also because, you know, he's taken us through this journey already to tell us at the end, I think made it much more powerful. Yeah.

Morgan Stewart

Hey, everyone, it's me, Morgan Stewart, and I have a new podcast called the Morgan Stewart Show. Join me each week as I talk about pop culture, fashion, my personal life, and just a warning, I'm gonna be giving my opinion on everything. I'll also have some really fun guests to join in on the fun. The Morgan Stewart show is out now. Listen and follow wherever you get your podcasts or watch full video on YouTube.

Greta Johnson

One sunny day, a honeybee was merrily buzzing through an orchard when she stopped to collect nectar from a mystery apple blossom. She passed that pollen along to a honeycrisp tree, and months later, the sugar bee apple was born. Naturally sweet, with layered notes of caramel, honey, molasses, and the perfect crunch. The world has embraced the Sugar Bee Apple, a pure delight for snacking and baking. Download our new free recipe book and find a store near you@hellosugarbee.com Sugar B apples from Bee to you the Fastest Self Care Clean Hair K18 Air Wash Dry Shampoo is the first biotech powered dry shampoo. It instantly eliminates odor and reduces oil and sweat for fresh hair and scalp for up to three days and no white cast, starchy buildup or heavy fragrances. K18 studied the science of fresh hair so you never have to worry about wash day again. Shop at Sephora or get 10% off your first purchase at K18 18hair.com with code podcast that's codepodcast@k18hair.com hi, I'm Angie

Laura Bricker

Hicks, co founder of Angie.

Kevin Flynn

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Laura Bricker

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Kevin Flynn

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Rebecca Lavoy

all right, let's do what we do. Let's let our listeners know should they check out Hunting the Suicide Salesman from CBC Podcasts Laura Bricker Thumbs up or thumbs down for this podcast?

Laura Bricker

Yeah, this is a thumbs up and it feels weird to give a thumbs up for something related to suicide. This was not an easy listen, but this was something that was just wild in the scope of the man behind selling these products that we're hearing about and this suicide. Who is the suicide salesman and the global implications of this. I think you know, this was a podcast that was extremely well reported. It was approached with care and sensitivity to the topic and it also brought all different sides of the issue of suicide and related to this case that we heard about from family members that had lost loved ones and friends to the person behind this operation, to what we can do to help others and what is the most effective way to help somebody that is considering suicide. So it was definitely not something that you're gonna binge watch and get through all at once. It's something for me. I kind of titrated out how much I was listening to and when, but I think it was a very well done, thoughtful, extremely well reported podcast.

Rebecca Lavoy

Toby Ball, Thumbs up or thumbs down for Hunting the Suicide Salesman Some are

Toby Ball

really big thumbs up for this. I in some ways I think this is a kind of thing that podcasting at its best does really well because there's sort of freedom of time and, and and subject matter and you don't, you don't need to sensationalize things. I, I mean, I just, it just felt like it was just a very mature, smart look at a, a really difficult topic. But, you know, I, I don't even. It's, it's just treated with such sort of respect and respect for the audience too, that the audience can kind of understand and be able to think through these things. When you hear from, you know, parents of, of people who died by suicide, people who had considered it and not done it, there's, there's all these voices that you get without being told what to think about things. Like they, you just, you, you listen and you can process. And then in addition, there's this whole other part of it which is about a guy who is basically trying to help people facilitate things in order to make a buck. I don't know, I just thought this was excellent. Going into it, I was like, how, how is this going to work? But you get a sense of it almost from the beginning from like. And I'm talking about the very beginning where there's like this trigger warning sort of, which again, I, I think it's just very. Respects the audience and it's like, this isn't where your head's at. Don't, don't listen to this. But for other people like this, I think this is an important thing to talk about. And if your head's in the right space to listen to it. I just thought this was, again, just really, really top notch.

Rebecca Lavoy

Kevin Flynn.

Kevin Flynn

I'm a thumbs up. This isn't for everybody. It's a tough listen, but it's an important listen. And Damon Farless is probably the best at exploring the dark corners of the Internet and you know, what it says about us, and that's what we're doing here. He's looking at not only a crime, but an economy and about a community that needs help, but is trying to find different ways of dealing with this, and they can't. They certainly made the case here a difficult way that these folks could, you know, be pushed one way or the other, but the CBC does so well, is to find crime stories that end up being about bigger things. So while, yes, this is a hunt for somebody who'd been selling chemicals for people to end their own lives, it ended up being a gateway for a very sober and intimate and incredibly important conversation about the issue of suicide in a way that we don't usually engage with. We generally just will try to find a way to move past the topic because it is so painful. And this is an invitation to set that pain aside and look at it from a critical aspect through the lens of this crime. So for all of that, again, not for everybody, not for everybody in a certain moment, um, maybe you have to take a break from it. But if you are willing to engage with the topic and some very, very good journalism, then this is something that you need to listen to. So thumbs up for Hunting the suicide salesman.

Rebecca Lavoy

This is a huge thumbs up for me. Huge. And I actually want to make a pitch right now. I've done this one other time on the podcast and I manifested. I manifested it into reality. So I'm going to do it again. Damon Fairless, Chris Oak, Arif Narani. I know two out of the three of you personally, sort of, I would like you to have me moderate a panel with you guys at a podcast conference to talk about this show and covering the taboo on your narrative podcasts. Because this is the second show we've heard from Damon where you're covering something that no one else will touch. People don't touch this topic. They're afraid to. They're afraid of the so called contagion around it. They're afraid of talking about methods. They're afraid of all of that. Because as journalists, we have been told that we can't and we've been told that there are certain ethics around it that are just too dangerous or too whatever. And you took this on head on and ended up making a fantastic story out of it. I actually did binge listen to this whole thing and I found it incredibly compelling. Hard to listen to, but very compelling. I wanted to listen to each next episode when I was done with one. A huge part of that is the people that you found to speak with. And yes, I'm still talking to you guys. This is a pitch. Remember the people that you found to speak with, who I think through their voices, give us permission to consider this in a different way. Because you're like, you know what, if this person is here talking about this in the frame of this story, I should be allowed to engage with it and be thoughtful about it and think about this in a way that may be a little bit different than the sort of like, taboo, don't touch it, don't repeat it, don't talk about it way that so many journalists are told to do. So. I absolutely love this podcast. And one last thing I want to say about it is it sounds fantastic. Hunting Warhead had one of my favorite soundscapes of all time. When that first came out. That show had like sort of like a techno electronic sound to it that really melded with the sort of dark web subject and the same thing here. The soundscape is great. The audio is fantastic. The quality of Damon's writing and hosting is just absolutely his voice. Along with Gilbert King, one of the best voices in podcasting hands. Absolutely. Hands down. I think CBC podcast is one of the final bastions of great narrative audio. I think about all the podcasts we've reviewed from cbc. I think about, you know, finding nxivm. I think about missing and murdered. I think about all of these stories and then, you know, you hear, I think, except with a couple of public media stations aside, and maybe one or two things from, you know, a great podcast house that also has to make a lot of crappy things. I think about sort of like the scope of the work of CBC and the kinds of things they do. And some of them are like smaller and some of them are bigger and some of them are of kind, hookier and some of them are. It's just fantastic. So I just see, I just see this outlet as like a final bastion of great narrative audio. And please, please, I will travel to do a panel with you guys. So if you want to do one, I will moderate and ask you smart questions that will make you seem really good at your job.

Kevin Flynn

If you're buying, she's flying.

Rebecca Lavoy

You don't have to buy. I'll still fly. All right, that's gonna do it for us. But before we go, Laura Bricker, I have to ask you a question. I ask you every week. Do we have a cat of the week this week?

Laura Bricker

Yeah. So everybody sent me that cat that jumped on stage during Romeo and Juliet and was licking the guy's head. But that's not the cat of the week. That's. Everybody's already seen that. We have just for you, Rebecca, a dog.

Damon Fairless

Yay.

Laura Bricker

Fiona Gao. It is. Banana is a 3 year old Heinz 57 pound special.

Rebecca Lavoy

Nice.

Laura Bricker

Who looks like a grumpy permanent lab puppy. He says he loves crime riders on because mom gives the best walks when she's listening.

Rebecca Lavoy

Nice. I love him. I love this dog. Does he look like. Does he look like a grump? Is there a picture of him?

Laura Bricker

Happy little puppy. Yep.

Rebecca Lavoy

I absolutely love everything about this Laura Bricker. If folks want to reach out to you on social media and pitch any kind of animal to be cat of the week, how can they find you there?

Laura Bricker

You can find me @larabricker on Instagram and Blue Sky.

Rebecca Lavoy

All right, I'm looking at this dog right now. What's its name?

Kevin Flynn

Banana.

Rebecca Lavoy

Banana has like crazy eyes in a way that I super like.

Kevin Flynn

He's looking like, why are you taking my photo?

Rebecca Lavoy

Banana is just like. Looks like he's either going to like fall asleep immediately or thinking about eating the couch but isn't gonna do it. But he has the crazy eyes. Toby Ball. If folks wanna reach out to you and say hi on social media, how can they find you?

Toby Ball

Obal603 on Instagram.

Rebecca Lavoy

What about you, Kevin?

Kevin Flynn

I'm Evan Pflinn.

Rebecca Lavoy

You can follow me everywhere at Reb. You can follow the show on every platform at Crimewriters on. But mostly you should join our Facebook group. It's rad there. And you should also sign up for our newsletter@crimewriterzon.com it's free. It's a window into Kevin's mind. I super like it. Get everything we make@patreon.com partnersincrimemedia Lots of extra content there. Our theme song was composed and performed by Ty Gibbons. The executive producer and editor of this episode is Kevin Flynn. This show was recorded in the Caitlin Rogers project studio, also known as Studio C, the closet in our New Hampshire basement, where we also have an online community that's supportive, friendly and life affirming. On behalf of all the crime writers, thanks so much for listening. We will catch you later,

Kevin Flynn

Toby. Rebecca's going to Chicago.

Toby Ball

Nice.

Kevin Flynn

Remember we all went to Chicago that

Toby Ball

time I got attacked by a bird.

Kevin Flynn

Yeah. And you're like, oh, you had to

Rebecca Lavoy

buy a shirt because your wife was was ashamed of your clothes.

Toby Ball

Yes.

Kevin Flynn

You got attacked by a bird and fashion shame.

Rebecca Lavoy

That's right.

Kevin Flynn

And yet you still don't believe the owl theory.

Toby Ball

All right, I still don't.

Morgan Stewart

Partners in crime media. Hey, everyone, it's me, Morgan Stewart, and I have a new podcast called the Morgan Stewart Show. Join me each week as I talk about pop culture, fashion, my personal life, and just a warning, I'm gonna be giving my opinion on everything. I'll also have some really fun guests to join in on the fun. The Morgan Stewart show is out now. Listen and follow wherever you get your podcasts or watch full video on YouTube.