Suspect

Rebecca LaVoy

Join me Cyndi Lauper with chef Michelle Bernstein and Dr. Panico to talk about psoriasis and psoriatic arthritis, the potential connection and risk of developing permanent joint damage.

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Rebecca LaVoy

To get the crime Writers on after

Kevin Flynn

show right now, go to patreon.com partnersincrimemedia

Rebecca LaVoy

I'm Rebecca LaVoy and this is Crime Writers on. Crime Writers on is the original True Crime Review podcast that digs into true crime pop culture, other podcasts and on this episode, police had two suspects in a young woman's murder. Did their interpretation of the DNA lead them to arrest the wrong man? We'll revisit our review of the classic true crime podcast Suspect Season one. Joining me to get that done and more is true crime author, TV journalist and host of these Are Their Stories podcast, My husband and the love of my life, it's Kevin Flynn. Hello, Kevin.

Kevin Flynn

Hello, Rebecca.

Rebecca LaVoy

So, Kevin. Yeah. What are we going to hear in today's CWO Classic Rewind.

Kevin Flynn

Okay, we're going to go Back to our September 27, 2021 review of the pod from Campside Media and Wondery, it's season one of Suspect with host Matthew Scher.

Rebecca LaVoy

Kevin yes? You know something about me in this podcast?

Kevin Flynn

I do, I do. Why don't we wait for it? We can Talk to it on the other side. All right.

Rebecca LaVoy

All right, so let's take a listen.

Matthew Scher

While DNA is treated in popular culture like a truth meter, a guilt meter, in reality, DNA evidence has to be interpreted by human beings. Human beings who have biases, prejudices, human beings who make mistakes.

Rebecca LaVoy

In 2008, the body of software engineer Arpana Janaga was discovered after a rowdy Halloween party in her apartment building. She had been strangled and then doused in bleach, motor oil and toilet bowl cleaner to destroy DNA evidence. Among the suspects was a convicted sex offender with outstanding warrants and a neighbor who was turned away from the Canadian border hours after the killing. I'm telling you everything.

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You're not.

Toby Ball

Because the way you're telling us is telling me that you're holding stuff back.

Rebecca LaVoy

Did you kick in her corner?

Toby Ball

No, I didn't kick.

Rebecca LaVoy

Faced with a whodunit and forensic evidence that couldn't be analyzed by conventional means, authorities ran trace DNA through a software program. Though unable to clear one suspect, police arrested another. On the basis of debatable science, this

Matthew Scher

DNA match on the robe fundamentally altered the course of the case. It undercut the conclusion the investigators might be tempted to reach from the DNA on the motor oil bottle. And it changed everything.

Rebecca LaVoy

In Suspect, from Campside Media and Wondery, host Matthew Scher looks at the investigation into Janaga's death. The podcast series slowly peels back the layers of a case with dubious assumptions, racial bias, and junk science, which likely put the wrong man behind bar. Now, we are going to be talking about plot points for the first five episodes for Suspect. So to remain spoiler free, go to the estimated time code in our show notes to hear our thumbs up or thumbs down reviews. So we should note that all of the episodes for Suspect are available on Wondery plus and on Amazon Music if you have a subscription, which I didn't

Kevin Flynn

find out until later. Damn it.

Rebecca LaVoy

But the first five episodes are available on all of the apps. Now we should just. I think Kevin just tipped our hats. This is a podcast that perhaps you may want to maybe get the episodes for. So, Kevin, we have reviewed a couple of podcasts from Campside and of course we've reviewed a plethora of podcasts from Wondery.

Kevin Flynn

If you told me these two.

Rebecca LaVoy

Wait, wait, let me just say, all right, we have liked for the most part their podcast from Campside, but our one criticism has been they have been a little too much in the sound design side.

Kevin Flynn

Uh huh.

Rebecca LaVoy

And of course from Wondery, most of our criticism has been like, they're Way too much on everything. So here we are. A collaboration between Campsite and Wondery. Though I'm guessing Wondery is just a distribution partner.

Kevin Flynn

Right. But if you told me, like, there was going to be a podcast with both their names on it, I would have thought it would have been nine hours of theme songs and sound effects.

Rebecca LaVoy

Yes.

Kevin Flynn

And it's not very restrained. And I think that's because. At least I hope it's because there's a really good story here, and when you have that, you don't need a bunch of party tricks to. To fool the easily impressed. You just get to tell the story.

Rebecca LaVoy

I actually think it's because whoever was working on this was just really good at it. I mean, I might. Well, yeah, I actually believe that Wondery was the distribution partner. I'm not, like, behind the scenes in this at all. I just think that the people working on this thing were the right people, and I'm just.

Kevin Flynn

That's all that matters.

Rebecca LaVoy

I'm just gonna stick with that. I mean, Toby, there is a narrative structure here that I was so impressed by, and I don't think we've heard something like it recently, which is that in the first couple of episodes, we follow the crime and the person who probably did it and probably should be in jail for it, as if that's kind of what happened. And we're, like, all in on that. Right. And then we find out that's not what happened. I. I am just, like, incredibly impressed by the way that they structured this. I mean, I don't know how you feel about this podcast. We haven't talked about it a lot before taping the show because that's how we do this. I have just been assuming, and maybe I'm wrong, that you might be as impressed with the narrative structure of this as I am.

Toby Ball

Yeah, well, I think. You know, last week when we were talking about Firebug, and we were talking about how it. It wasn't structured well, and it sounded a little bit like an article, and they. They didn't have the right focus, and they left stuff to the end that should. But I feel like this one does just about perfectly. The way it's organized and the way it draws you in and the way you learn things is just about as good as I can imagine you doing it with this story. And I don't know if it's the exact first thing, but the bulk of the beginning of it is about this Halloween party that takes place at this apartment complex, which I kept thinking of as Melrose Place. But I'm sure it's not.

Rebecca LaVoy

It's down market Melrose Place. The way they describe it, yes.

Toby Ball

They do this interesting thing where that in setting up this party and then talking about the party, you get to have a pretty good sense of a number of people who become players in this and what their relationships are. And you get to hear a lot of their voices and you get to hear like the way that this woman, Arpana, who's the victim, her enthusiasm for the party and you get a little bit of the background and then the party itself, the description, the way they talk about it was so reminiscent of things I've been to, you know, where there's a party and there's like one guy who's like being sort of hyper aggressive and freaking people out, a dick. Everybody wants him to get out of there.

Kevin Flynn

That's you, Toby.

Toby Ball

Everything's kind of Fun until about 1 o' clock in the morning. And then everybody's just like so wasted that it gets a little dark.

Matthew Scher

Parties have emotional lives of their own. Sounds weird to say that out loud, but I'm also guessing you kind of know what I mean. There are parties that are full of warmth, of happiness, parties where it feels like everyone is on the same wavelength. And then there are parties that have a bad mood to them, where you can feel something. Anger, jealousy, barely concealed violence under the surface. That Halloween party in 2008, the Valley View Apartments, had started the first way and ended up the second.

Toby Ball

So anyway, the structure is phenomenal. I thought.

Rebecca LaVoy

Lara, I know you had party thoughts as well. Do you want to expand on that?

Lara Bricker

Yeah, no, I definitely, like Toby said, I mean, we've all been to a party like this at some point. Have we? Well, I mean, I have. Nobody got killed at the party I was at. But I mean, like, I think like there's Halloween parties, especially when you were in your younger years, they could always be adventurous. I mean, I had one at our sorority house where I was dressed up in this duck suit that I had. So I sort of became like this infamous character, the duck. And the children were coming to visit us to trick or treat. And I thought, I'll make it really spooky. And we had this like halogen lamp and so I put a scarf over it. And you know how that ended. And the fire department came and that's

Kevin Flynn

how I met your mother.

Rebecca LaVoy

That's your target market? The fire department?

Lara Bricker

Yep. They said, who set the fire? And they said, the girl in the duck suit. And anyway, so I. I could really relate to this in a way like that sort of period in life when you did, like Toby said, have these things where you're like all these sort of rando people show up and you're like, oh my God, who is that person that showed up in a duck suit? Or who was that person who did this? And I think setting that up from the start, it's like not necessarily a whodunit because who the heck knows? It was more of like this botched investigation story and, and how that played out. But setting it up the way they did with all these characters that came to this party, I think sort of started us on that story in such a way that we knew we weren't really gonna. I didn't think I was gonna know who done it.

Kevin Flynn

Yeah, well, the party episode is really enthralling because just like in a murder mystery, like an Agatha Christie or a black and white Charlie Chan movie, you have this setting where everybody's there and you know as a member of the audience that you are gonna be given things that are important, gonna be important later on. So you are sizing up everything, right? You hear all the people who are there and you could kind of like trying to drink everything in because something about, is it this fight? Is it the beer? Is it what? You know, what is going to be important down the road? And I gotta say, this is the closest thing to a game of Clue that we have heard because it's the construction worker killed Little Red Riding Hood in the bathroom or the bed. You know, it's. It's crazy like that.

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You know what it is?

Kevin Flynn

What?

Rebecca LaVoy

It's only murders in the building.

Kevin Flynn

It's only murders. No, this is murders in that building.

Rebecca LaVoy

This is all I can think about.

Matthew Scher

The theme song from Campside Media and Wondery. I'm Matthew Sher and this is Suspect.

Rebecca LaVoy

Has like the sort of evocative. Yes, I know it sounds a little bit serial esque, but it actually has a very evocative, like, mystery. And I know that this was made like, way before only the Murder in the Building was released. I know it, but it even has like a little bit of a concertina feel. But literally. And I'm not making light of this crime. I'm not. And by the way, Matt Sher is not making light of this crime. But this is a fucking great example of something that I have talked about so many times lately on this podcast of a serious important story where you can hear the joy in the making of it, right? This is somebody who clearly likes being a reporter and Enjoyed putting the story together and understands how to put it together in a way that audience will take it in. And it's very.

Kevin Flynn

Makes us enthusiastic without him being thirsty about it.

Rebecca LaVoy

Okay, here's a story where the victim lives in the building. The perpetrator was at a party, and one of the witnesses was there, and the killer was also there. It is literally only murders in the building. Right? It's the same setup.

Kevin Flynn

I don't think you know what the word literally means, but I'll let it go.

Rebecca LaVoy

It's the same setup.

Kevin Flynn

Right.

Rebecca LaVoy

But what I was talking about earlier was that the structure, literally the first episode, in the first two episodes, Cameron is laid out for us as the killer. We are given on a plate. Cameron is the killer. Emmanuel is a side story that is, like, quickly flash in the pan until it isn't. He was there, I will say, and I am an astute observer of all details in every podcast. Emmanuel is like, oh, he was there. He laughed in my mind. I was like, oh, that's probably important. And this story is so well told. I literally forgot about him or almost forgot about him. Holy shit. Like I said to you, Kevin, wow, it's really weird that they're, like, giving us so much about this guy who probably did. He's the guy. And you were like, just wait. I'm like, I forgot about Emmanuel. Lara, is that not a sign of a well structured story that they could tell us about somebody who's so important and that as a listener, we could forget?

Lara Bricker

Oh, yeah. I mean, it's very hard to do. I mean, this is something I've been working a lot on lately with, like, mystery writing. Like, okay, you don't want your suspect to be too obvious, but you want them to be there. So when they come out, everyone's like, oh, but I have to say the Cameron thing back to him. It was a good thing. I was, like, walking in the woods by myself. When we got to the part about how they just, like, gave him his BlackBerry back and, like, like, didn't even search it. And I'm like, what the. I'm like, why? I'm like, oh. I looked around like, oh, no one else is here, you know, because he was set up as the killer. But he was set up as the killer in a way that was so much more plausible than Emanuel. I just felt like, Cameron, hello. He, like, fled to Canada. Oh, I just wanted to go for a drive to Canada. Yeah. Okay. So when we then hear about blunder after blunder with how the investigation is handled from that point on it was. It was some rage walking material right there.

Rebecca LaVoy

Toby, one of the things that Matt share, the reporter says at the beginning of the podcast, which I honestly thought was probably an overstatement, but turns out that it isn't, is that this is a rare story a reporter wants to tell where it happened a long time ago, but everyone wants to talk about it. And you think, like, that can't possibly be true, right? Everyone wants to talk about it. He has all of the neighbors. He has the cops. He even has Neil the dick at the party. He has the other neighbor who has, like a murder board in his house. He has Emmanuel. He has literally everyone. Well, you're saying Kevin. I don't know who literally is, right?

Lara Bricker

Yeah.

Rebecca LaVoy

But he does seem to have everyone.

Kevin Flynn

He has all the important players.

Rebecca LaVoy

He has the person, and they all

Kevin Flynn

want her to talk.

Rebecca LaVoy

He has the person who found the body, who avoided Arpina's dad's phone call, which, by the way, was a heartbreaking scene. What did you think, by the way, of just the access that Matt has and the fact that everybody seems to want to talk about this case.

Toby Ball

Does he talk to Cameron?

Rebecca LaVoy

I don't think we've heard any contemporary tape of Cameron through episode five yet.

Toby Ball

Yeah, they've got good tape of him talking to cops. It's not too surprising that people want to talk about it, I would imagine, especially with, I guess we can spoil. But the fact that, you know, the person who got arrested for it didn't do it, I think, again, kind of makes you, if you're around that, want to talk more. But, yeah, you know, again, like, I think the groundwork that's been done in getting all these interviews and then getting archival footage like the phone call from the father is just absolutely heartbreaking. There's a lot of good police questioning audio that they've got. I'm sure we'll talk about the audio that hits at the end of episode five.

Rebecca LaVoy

Oh, my God, again.

Toby Ball

I mean, in some ways it's like, my God, like, how did they get this? How does this even exist to, like, shed light for us on this podcast? I think the thing, it's a good story and I think it was interesting when the cops. There's just so many sort of evocative details about how the cops are getting these pictures. And at first, before they know people's names, they're like, oh, yeah, you know, the vampire and the fireman and the construction worker. And that's how they're identifying, identifying these different people who are potentially Suspect. Right, Exactly. Before they can put names to them.

Kevin Flynn

Fighting me. Count Chocula.

Toby Ball

So, yeah. And the way they play that is just like sort of perfectly done where they play it for a minute, but they don't, like. They don't beat it to death or whatever. It's like a cool kind of interesting fact at one point and then they kind of move on. I mean, it's just like praise after praise, I guess, which isn't like. Doesn't make for a very interesting comment, but it is. It's just really well done.

Rebecca LaVoy

It's. It's really hard because there are so many details that. And I. I will admit this is. Well, I'm just going to ask you a question, Kevin, because I'm going to say something that I feel and then phrase it to you as a question. You're not giving me notes on it, so I'm going to ask you to respond. We have not listened to a true, legit great true crime podcast that wasn't actually something else rapped as a true crime podcast in a long time. Right, Right. We've listened to a lot of great podcast framed as a true crime podcast that were about other things, like through the cracks.

Kevin Flynn

Well, wait a minute. Are you gonna say this isn't. This is just a whodunit? A great whodunit.

Rebecca LaVoy

It's a true crime podcast.

Kevin Flynn

It is, yeah.

Rebecca LaVoy

There's procedural stuff. There's evidentiary stuff. There's not about forensics.

Kevin Flynn

I'm not gonna disagree with you that this is not a great true crime podcast to say that there isn't another level here. Remember, the word suspect is a noun, but it's also an adjective.

Rebecca LaVoy

Yes.

Kevin Flynn

And I think that that's what it's going at.

Rebecca LaVoy

It's about an investigation.

Kevin Flynn

We are going to get. We've only heard the first five. We're gonna get to the science.

Rebecca LaVoy

Yes.

Kevin Flynn

And I think that's forensics.

Rebecca LaVoy

There's a murder at the center. This is a murder podcast.

Kevin Flynn

But it is.

Rebecca LaVoy

Yes, yes. Right. I would say this is a true crime podcast.

Kevin Flynn

Are you asking me a question or are you just.

Rebecca LaVoy

I'm just saying.

Kevin Flynn

Right. Did anyone hear a question in that or Rebecca just talking.

Rebecca LaVoy

Kevin.

Kevin Flynn

Yeah.

Rebecca LaVoy

Isn't there a difference between. So a lot of people use the true crime podcast format to tell other kinds of stories, and there's nothing fucking wrong with that. I am not complaining. Connie Walker, for instance, uses the true crime podcast format to tell socially important stories about missing indigenous people through the true crime podcast format. Jonquillen Hill used the true crime Podcast format to tell stories about social issues in urban dc. This is a murder story, right? When is the last time we heard a great story told? This. Well, that is a murder story in a pure true crime podcast format. Can you remember?

Kevin Flynn

It's not coming to me right now, but, you know, that's what makes or breaks any true crime podcast is the source material, right? Is this an interesting enough event, an interesting enough crime? Is it compelling enough that it can hold up the weight of two or four or 10 episodes? Right. And this is because it is the most whodunit, ish whodunit that we have had in a really long time. You have a room full of suspects. Yeah, you quite literally have a room full of suspects. And then how it's told beyond that, it just like you said, it gets revealed bit by bit.

Rebecca LaVoy

It's like an onion.

Kevin Flynn

Well told way like an onion. Just like an onion. So the answer to your question is yes, Rebecca, it's a great true crime podcast.

Rebecca LaVoy

Well, I would say this is the thing, Toby, though, and this is the thing I've been thinking about you a lot about listening to this, but the thing we think about a lot on this show is a lot of podcasts. Like, one of the bars to us liking them is they need to shine a light on something, right? And I know there is an evidentiary thing, a science thing here, like a, you know, like a jurisprudence thing here. This will shine a light on. Right? We know that because this guy wrote this great article about touch DNA. So we know that this is coming. That being said, the narrative structure of this for me is enough for it to be very, very, very good. And that is, to me, rare. I don't know if you feel the same way, but that's how I am feeling at this point, even through episode five.

Toby Ball

Yeah, I guess, you know, it's not an exact comparison, but it's sort of like sort of a podcast equivalent of In Cold Blood in that I think it just works so well as what it is, you know, in a way that others have tried and not quite succeeded at that level. But I think I wrote in a note to you that if I was going to be teaching a class and how to put together a really good podcast right now, I think I would use this partly because the crime is interesting and there's a whole lot of interesting things about it or whatever, they've got great tape or whatever, but you could still make a crappy podcast about

Rebecca LaVoy

this case so easily.

Toby Ball

And I think we've certainly listened to podcasts that had more interesting cases that haven't been nearly as good as this. And I think it's just, yeah, I mean it's, it's craft, you know, I mean I think they figured out the best way to tell it and that to me would make it stand out and I don't, you know, like you said, I'm sure there's going to be some stuff about the technology and things like that but you know, I think the recommendation for this is this is just really well made, well told story that, you know, it's just a top example of the kind of thing that we listen to every week.

Rebecca LaVoy

Lar, do you feel like there's tension between the two suspects that have been laid out for us? We've got Cameron who is sus in many ways. Obviously his DNA showed up on the oil can. He drove to Canada for no fucking reason. He has the phone calls to Arpana at 3am he doesn't remember, quote forgotten and he claims he heard the noises of her having sex. Joking.

Lara Bricker

Yeah, that having sex thing just didn't

Rebecca LaVoy

make sense whatever was going on. And he had the very, very suspect interviews. And then we have Emmanuel who's, don't

Kevin Flynn

forget, he also can't remember if he kicked in the door.

Rebecca LaVoy

Correct.

Lara Bricker

Couldn't remember.

Rebecca LaVoy

And then we have Emmanuel who by the way his memory is immaculate. He's able to look at every photo from the party, identify everyone. One of the things that really strikes me about him, I mean take, take the DNA stuff out of it and his, he's so guileless. His memory is so pure. He's honest about all the stuff that even makes him look bad and like he's like oh that's Arpana. That's this, that's this. Oh yeah, I was there, I was helping her put her, you know, sex worker stuff on Craigslist. Yeah, that's why I was there.

Lara Bricker

That's that lady. Yeah, that was bizarre.

Rebecca LaVoy

Yeah, so, so like when you weigh these two, I mean, do you think it's interesting that we have two people who are so clearly in the frame? I mean it makes it more for, for a compelling story, right?

Lara Bricker

Well it does and I think, you know, having two people in the frame and then having Emmanuel in the frame and sort of looking at this as perhaps maybe like not necessarily like I know we were talking about it being a whodunit but more like a study of a botched investigation and looking at like racial and economic factors that might have played a role in how this all played out. Especially when this, like, crapshoot DNA thing comes into the picture. I think it's really kind of a study in an investigation can just go wrong based on certain stereotypes. And in this case, you know, science that we now know isn't necessarily the big be all that we thought it might be at one point. But I did feel like. I guess for me, I felt the tension because I felt so strongly that Cameron seemed really guilty. I mean, everything he said to me, I'm like the whole like, well, why would it sound like she was, like, choking when she was having sex? Like, really? And there was just some weird things he said that it didn't add up. But then when you hear that jail tape of Emmanuel talking about how he's basically been railroaded and needs an attorney, like, the contrast between those two suspects to me was like night and day.

Rebecca LaVoy

I need to get a lawyer or something. You do.

Kevin Flynn

You gonna have to. So I don't know.

Rebecca LaVoy

You need a lawyer. That end of episode five was an extraordinary piece of audio. And I've never heard a podcast use tape from a subject used for the next up on. You know, they just use Emmanuel's jail phone call and say, next up.

Kevin Flynn

You mean natural sound tape?

Rebecca LaVoy

Yeah.

Kevin Flynn

Okay.

Rebecca LaVoy

Yeah. And it's just like, I've been railroaded. Next up on Suspect. I need to get a good one. Cause these motherfuckers are railroad. A motherfucker, man.

Matthew Scher

That's on the next episode of Suspect.

Toby Ball

They don't want you out ever.

Rebecca LaVoy

I thought that was just such a beautifully constructed cliffhanger. I've never heard anything like it before. Toby, you sent me a note about that as well.

Toby Ball

Yeah, it's kind of a stopper. You know, I was driving and it's just like, oh, my God. Like you're not expecting it. It packs a punch. And then you're like, wait, what day does this come out? The next episode.

Rebecca LaVoy

I mean, listen, I recommended this podcast,

Kevin Flynn

Sign me up for Wonder immediately.

Rebecca LaVoy

I recommended this podcast to so many people. I have gotten four people who hate Wondery to sign up for Wonder. I have once again signed up for the free trial of Amazon Music. It's been a whole thing. Kevin, what did you think of just the end of episode five? Did you like it as much as I did with the jail sound sort of like cliffhanger situation?

Kevin Flynn

No, I hated it because I wanted to. Listen up. Episode six. I was mad. The actual Fuck, Matt, don't do me like that.

Rebecca LaVoy

Where are you on the Cameron Emanuel thing? I'm curious.

Kevin Flynn

Well, I mean, I can't say who I think the killer is, but I would say if I were a cop, I'd keep my eye on Cameron.

Rebecca LaVoy

You mean if you were a cop in 2008 or if you were a cop right now?

Kevin Flynn

I. Both.

Rebecca LaVoy

Because you don't. We don't. Have you Googled? Cause I haven't. I have.

Kevin Flynn

I had to google because of spelling and whatnot. So now I know.

Lara Bricker

Yeah, I had to google and I was like, okay, my feelings were correct.

Rebecca LaVoy

I have stayed very far away from the people on this. I cannot. I have been pure. I cannot.

Kevin Flynn

It's something for you. You do not. You will immediately.

Rebecca LaVoy

It's very rare for me. Very, very rare. I want to stay pure and I want to stay this, like, arm's length.

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Rebecca LaVoy

So, Kevin, who's the next sponsor for this fine podcast?

Kevin Flynn

Oh, our sponsor is Quince.

Rebecca LaVoy

Kevin, I'm wearing a Quint's dress right now.

Kevin Flynn

I know. Hold on, Nana. Don't get ahead of ourselves.

Lara Bricker

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Kevin Flynn

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Rebecca LaVoy

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Kevin Flynn

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Rebecca LaVoy

I just ordered.

Kevin Flynn

Very comfortable yet elegated. Wait, wait, wait. I mean elevated. Elevated, but we don't know. Well, you just ordered more stuff from quints.

Rebecca LaVoy

Did you see the package upstairs? His pair of pants.

Kevin Flynn

Oh, that's.

Matthew Scher

I was.

Rebecca LaVoy

European linen pants. I had to try them because they're a new style.

Kevin Flynn

Oh, man. Oh, man.

Lara Bricker

Sorry.

Kevin Flynn

No, it's okay. It's okay. At this point though, Quince, please, you must name a whole clothing line after Rebecca. Because she has single handedly kept several people employed. Yes, I think they're at Quint's.

Rebecca LaVoy

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Kevin Flynn

Bonjour High.

Rebecca LaVoy

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Rebecca LaVoy

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Rebecca LaVoy

we should do what we do. Let's let our listeners know if we haven't yet, should they check out the podcast?

Kevin Flynn

Sussex, what do you think we're gonna

Rebecca LaVoy

say from Campside Media? I want to say from Wondery too, but I really think it's from Campsite. I think Wondery is a distribution partner. Should they check out the new podcast Suspect? Lara Bricker, what do you think? Thumbs up or thumbs up for Suspect?

Lara Bricker

I'm gonna tell you it is a huge thumbs up and unlike you guys, I do have the Amazon music because the teenager in my house signed us up and I just never canceled. So I will say that my normal like two and a half mile walk this week was going to about four miles because I wanted to keep listening, which is a good thing. So thank you Wondry. This was just a really interesting case. It was told in such a way that details were released at just the right time to keep you listening. And it's Also a case that I think as we continue listening, we're going to see, you know, has some bigger picture issues with regard to like, criminal justice and investigations. But right now it's just a really good story.

Rebecca LaVoy

Toby Ball.

Toby Ball

Yeah, I, I, so far, so great, I think, I mean, it's just really put together. Well, I, you know, it's hard for me to picture what I would do differently with what they've done so far. You know, you're always a little bit nervous, like throwing praise like this and are they going to be able to land the plane? But their decision making up until this point has been so spot on that I assume that they've got it figured out. So, yeah, a big thumbs up and, you know, hopefully if it continues in this vein, it'll be another one that kind of goes on the short list of recommendations for people when they're like, what should I listen to if I want to get into true crime podcasts?

Rebecca LaVoy

Kevin Flynn.

Kevin Flynn

Yeah, I'm a big thumbs up. By the way, if you have prime, you may already have one of the levels of Amazon music. There's some higher levels. You get more songs and whatnot. But if you have prime, check, you might have it already. And so what, you can get the, you don't have to.

Rebecca LaVoy

You can't get the free trial for 30 days like I keep doing over and over again.

Kevin Flynn

Yeah, eventually you want to double pay for it. Like, in any event, look, thumbs up. I just thought that this was put together extremely well. I did not want these episodes to end. It's a really interesting crime. It couldn't have been told any better with the raw material it was given. And I do know the direction the case goes in from here and I'm excited to listen to how they wrap it all up.

Rebecca LaVoy

All right, so I'm going to, like, do an unprecedented thing I've never done on the podcast before.

Kevin Flynn

Thumbs sideways.

Rebecca LaVoy

I'm gonna give it two thumbs up.

Toby Ball

Okay.

Rebecca LaVoy

Only because I am looking at our past reviews from. I'm scrolling through the crime writers on back catalog right now. My podcast app. I cannot find even like the last podcast that we did that was a pure true crime, straight up murder podcast that didn't have like another like, agenda that it was also trying to do.

Kevin Flynn

Right.

Rebecca LaVoy

And really, at least in the last, like, year or two, that was great. Like, we've done other murder podcasts, but not one that was great. This podcast is great. This podcast is like, in terms of narrative storytelling, it's like serial great. It is great. It is structurally Great. It is narrative great. It is production great. It is so freaking good. It is addict. It is giving you all of the case information. It is giving you just enough of the contextual information. Like, it's. It's doing all of the right things in terms of giving you the background about how a person of color is different than a white Suspect in an efficient way without, like, making a left turn and making about the podcast about something that it isn't about. Like, it's doing everything exactly right. The music is used right. The source scissor used right is just freaking impeccable and addictive. And I love it. Two huge thumbs up for Suspect for me, I can't say enough good things about this podcast. I recommend it to about 150 people in the last few days. Granted, I listened through episode five. I have a few more episodes to go. If I am disappointed the next few, I will say it on next week's podcast. I seriously doubt that's gonna happen. And based on what I've heard so far, I love everything about this podcast so far. Two huge thumbs up for me.

Kevin Flynn

Okay, Rebecca, is this still one of your favorite podcasts of all time?

Rebecca LaVoy

Kevin, I'm very comfortable saying that season one of Suspect is my favorite serialized true crime podcast of all time.

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Kevin Flynn

That's saying something.

Rebecca LaVoy

I know. I love it. I love it so much. It's. It's a Campside Media classic. It's what introduced me to Matthew Scher and his reporting. He's an incredible reporter. I would really suggest folks listen back to the podcast if they haven't listened in a while or if they've never listened. You know, one of the things I'll tell you is that episode one of this season of Suspect, one of the greatest single episodes of a true crime podcast of all time. And there's great reason for that because it gives you. You pretty much every clue you need for the rest of the show. So it's great.

Matthew Scher

Yeah.

Kevin Flynn

And I'll agree. And as we kind of discussed, your Campside Media really kind of came into its own in this era after some podcasts that we thought were, you know, okay. Their partnership with Wondery on this project was really great.

Rebecca LaVoy

I loved it so much. All right, well, this show was recorded in Studio C, the closet in our New Hampshire basement, where we also make a fast break to Canada for no suspicious reasons whatsoever. On behalf of all the crime writers, thanks so much for listening. We will catch you later.

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