Uncover: The Expert Witness

A

The Colonels cooked up a new $10 bucket of the day just for you. Monday, 24 nuggets for $10. Tuesday eight piece fried chicken for $10. Wednesday ten wings for $10. Thursday eight tenders for $10. Friday 24 nuggets for. Oh, you guessed it, didn't you? $10. The $10 bucket of the day deal every weekday only at KFC.

B

It's finger licking. Good prices and participation variable supplies. Last amount available on third party ordering platforms.

C

Tax extra.

B

Hi, I'm Daniel, founder of Pretty Litter. Cats and cat owners deserve better than

A

any old fashioned litter.

B

That's why I teamed up with scientists

A

and veterinarians to create Pretty Litter. Its innovative crystal formula has superior odor

B

control and weighs up to 80% less than clay litter.

A

Just one bag lasts up to a month, meaning fewer refills and less scooping. Pretty Litter even monitors health by changing colors to help detect early signs of potential illness.

B

It's the world's smartest kitty litter.

D

Go to prettylitter.com and use code Pandora for 20% off your first order.

A

To get the crime writers on after show right now, go to patreon.com partnersincrimedia

C

I'm Rebecca Lavoy and this is Crime Writers on. Crime Writers on is the original True Crime Review podcast that digs into true crime, pop culture, other pop culture. And on this episode, prosecutors won convictions using new technology that places suspects at the scene of the crime. Why won't its programmer explain how it works? We'll talk about the CBC podcast Uncover the Expert Witness. Joining me to get that done and more is True Crime author, TV journalist and host of these Are Stories podcast. My husband and the love of my life, it's Kevin Flynn. Hello, Kevin.

A

Hello Rebecca.

C

Also with us, private investigator, certified pet detective, resident cat lady, and author of the Final Curtain, Laura Bricker. Hi, Laura.

D

Hey, Rebecca.

C

And finally, it is our captain of all things cynical, author of a City trilogy of novels, host of Strange Arrivals, and our Patreon Deep Dive Book Club podcast, it's Toby Ball. Hello, Toby.

B

Hey, Rebecca.

C

So Kevin, what's coming up on the next edition of Crime Writers on?

A

Yeah, so on Monday, we'll be talking about the latest season of Deep Cover. From Pushkin, it's Deep Cover the Family man.

C

So Toby, as we know, there's nothing more scintillating than talking about the weather. And here in New Hampshire, we have bright yellow skies from the wildfires in Ontario. In fact, I have quite a tickle in my throat and I feel like I'm going To cough, hit the mute button.

B

I'll be experiencing that tomorrow.

C

You will?

B

Yeah. We're flying home tomorrow.

C

Oh. Oh, yes.

B

To the States. Yeah.

C

It's wild. It is wild outside.

D

It's like being in the apocalypse.

C

It's like being in Arrakis. So. But before we started recording and before Lara and Kevin got here, you told me about the even worse weather that you're experiencing. So even though it is boring, would you like to tell us what it is you told me? Because I think it's wild.

B

It is. It gets so hot here. And what's really weird is that during the day, like, I think the heat really peaks at about 4, but it's pretty dry. But it doesn't really get that much cooler as you get into the beginning of the night. So at, like, 10 o' clock or 11 o', clock, it could be, like, 92 degrees, but the humidity just comes in as soon as the sun comes down. So it was absolutely just like. You didn't feel like breathing, really. And this is Valencia. Like, people are like, oh, if you don't, like, you know, don't go to Sevilla. Like, Sevilla is, like, much, much worse, which I can hardly imagine. But anyway, it gets. It gets warm in Valencia, but.

C

And that's why you're completely shorn, because last time we saw you, you had hair.

B

Yeah, my. My hair is. My hair's pretty short.

D

It's really short.

C

Yeah.

B

Yeah. That's the way they do it in Spain, apparently, as my barber told me. And I realized there's some self interest there. But Spanish men tend to get their haircut about every three weeks, some every two weeks. And everybody gets these fades.

A

Everybody. Everybody.

C

That's what he got.

B

I think. I think a lot of people do, like, more than you would imagine. But there's also. I mean, obviously there's all kinds of haircuts, but that. There's a lot of barbershops, and that's just what they do.

D

Yeah. Will has a buddy who's a barber, and Will and all his friends get their haircut there. And the guy has, like, an Instagram page, and every single haircut the guy posts on Instagram is the exact same haircut with the.

C

Why even have the hair? Why even have the Instagram if they're all the same?

D

Because he's Nate the barber. He's, like, doing his thing, but I'm like, no. It's so funny.

C

I love those Instagram barbers. You see him, like, someone drives in from Pennsylvania to get their hair cut or whatever, and it's like just a barber, dude. It's just relax, everybody relax. Oh, all right. Well, should we talk about the podcast we are here to talk about?

A

Let's do.

C

All right.

B

Leading off, this thing was saying that it knows where we are at all hours, how close we are to each other. It knows our movements, not just online, but in physical space. And not just our movements today, but yesterday, last month, last year, last decade. For as long as there's been an Internet.

C

In 2022, defense attorneys in Ohio were stunned when prosecutors rolled out a cutting edge tool to place defendants at the scene of a crime. CyberCheck claimed to use AI and historical digital data to identify suspects. But when lawyers examined the technology for themselves, they couldn't figure out how it worked. We had nothing to check.

A

The black box to me was, how do you go from that data to

C

this percentage at the end of the day?

A

Like, how is it built? What happens?

C

Attention turned to CyberCheck's creator and expert witness, Adam Mosher. The Canadian was cagey about the program's code and his own credentials, even though attorneys were sure they had evidence both CyberCheck and its creator were frauds. Persuading judges and prosecutors that the miracle tool was a sham would be far more difficult.

B

And that's when it, for me, distilled my anger into one fine point, which is the system is fucked. The system is fucked.

C

The latest season of the CBC podcast, Uncover the Expert Witness recounts how lawyers figured out a computer program that claimed to identify criminals was not what it seemed. Host Sam Mullins interviews Adam Mosher, investigates his dubious technology and asks why there are those in the criminal justice system who still stand by CyberCheck's ability to solve crimes. Spoiler alert. We're going to be talking about plot points from the expert witness. So if you want to remain spoiler free, go to the estimated time code in our show notes for our thumbs up or thumbs down reviews. So, Laura, we start this story where you often like to start when a story starts this way, which is with defense lawyers. Tell me what you think about the lawyer that we meet at the start of this podcast.

D

I have to tell you, I've already been on his website because I was thinking I might wanna just move to Akron and go work with him.

C

Really?

D

I doubt. So this is the attorney, Donald Milarcic. We also hear about him through his paralegal who then goes on to become a lawyer. And, you know, Donald is like, he's like a defense lawyer's lawyer and he says something to the effect of, you know, 20 seconds in, when I meet another defense lawyer, I can tell if they're a good lawyer. And I'm like, yes, me too, Donald. Because it's like, I was like. He just. But he takes this on. He sees this expert witness and he's like, what. What is this? What is this with this Cybercheck? How does it work? How are they placing my client, who, you know, at the scene with this technology that nobody has really understood?

B

When Mosher claims that Cybercheck returns information with an 80% or higher accuracy rating, you know, what the fuck? According to who? Sometimes a question mark and an exclamation point, completely made up number Don writes in all caps. And if I'm really pissed off, it's in red.

D

And he really just starts doing the research because he says, you know, if I don't know the answer, I'm going to have somebody help me. I'm going to reach out so that I can. And nobody knows how this works. And so that's what kicks this off. But you hear so many details about him, you know, having boxes and boxes of materials and really not giving up, rallying, offering to work with other attorneys who have Cybercheck used in their cases, you know, looking for other places around the country, really tracking down, I think, calling. Is he the one who called the University of Saskatchewan to like, confirm that there wasn't actually a peer reviewed study done? I mean, this guy was just like, something stinks. Something is rotten in Denmark. And it is not fair the way that this is playing out in the criminal justice system, in the defense world.

C

So, Toby, you know, we've talked about lots of cases where there is like, suspect evidence, bad science, you know, sort of the pattern stuff that gets used to convict people. But what do you think about the idea of a minority report computer program that can place somebody by way of their technology and being in a certain proximity even before people were carrying cell phones around with them all the time. Thoughts?

B

Yeah, I mean, I. I think you got to put yourself in the time because now, I mean, I just assume that, you know, I just listen to a podcast and I feel like the podcast app knows where I am because I'm getting targeted ads in Spanish. It felt to me almost like it's foreshadowing, like, where. Where our world is going, that he's got this idea that if you can scrape enough data that's publicly available, you can draw conclusions about where people are or what their proclivities are or whatever. But he's got this sort of primitive and very opaque system. And I guess that's the thing. It's like you can scrape all that data, but what are you going to do with it? And that's why people want to see the software. And he apparently has, you know, his 51 indicators that somebody might be a criminal. And I can't remember exactly what, what the examples were. What, what is a criminal indicator? And some of the answers we got back were, well, you know, gang affiliation. And another answer was pornography. So you're saying that if someone views pornography, they're more likely to rob a store at gunpoint. Don was lost, but I was like, I don't know if they're.

C

But they're not based on race. They're not based on any of the things that are like profiling people and making that. They're 100% based on all that stuff.

B

Yeah, so it's. Yeah, so it's just like instead of saying, are they white, black, Latino, whatever, you're asking like questions, that kind of code one way or the other. I feel like it was probably more startling at the time than it is now. You know, if you, if this story had happened like last year, I wouldn't, like. Yeah, of course, like, yeah, there's probably 100 programs that are doing that, Finding out where we are, what our proclivities are, whatever. Yeah, but I mean, like, Facebook is basically made for that. Right?

C

Right.

B

You can scrape data, you can find out about people, you can figure out how to influence them or what, what they're into, where they've been, et cetera.

C

Yeah, but Facebook had to have existed right, when they were actually scraping that data. And that's what's so incredible about this. This actually reminds me a lot. And I know I get shit when I say this, it reminds me a lot of the so called science of profiling. It's like, here are the things that we have learned from a very limited number of people. And you caught somebody. And now we're gonna tell you how all those things fit this very limited series of looks that we did at only white men, and therefore only white men can be serial killers. Like, it's just. It's just like a weird, dumb thing. But to me, it speaks to the fact that, like, law enforcement and prosecutors really want a miracle cure. Like, they really want a shortcut. They really want a miracle cure. They really want to be able to tell a great story in the courtroom. Like when DNA was discovered to dazzle the jury and something like this, people don't understand it. So it works. What amazed me about it was that judges were letting it be used without the Daubert standard. I mean, I watched both Karen Reed trials. I know they didn't let those fricking dog bite expert guy come in with his stupid dog bite molds because of the Daubert stuff. Like, that's how it work. So that's what's wild to me. Kevin. Sam Mullins. We've heard him in several podcasts, including Wild Boys, including Sea of Lies. Sea of Lies. Doctor. That guy. The hypnotist guy. Remember the Hypnotist1?

A

Yeah. Dr. Dante.

C

Dr. Dante, yeah. What do you think about Sam in this podcast?

A

Well, I think he's great in this. I think the last time we had one of his podcasts was Sea of Lies, and the three of you liked it a lot more than I did because I thought. I didn't think Sam had his best writing in that, but I think he does. I think he's really great here. His witticisms make for, like, really good accompaniment to what tends to be, I mean, pretty straightforward storyline. He's able to amplify things, be the Greek chorus, you know, because there's some absurdity to it. And he demonstrates the absurdity by the way that he describes it.

B

Don's pen is emphatically writing the questions he thinks the defense counsel should have asked. Crucial questions, like says who? And what the hell? Like when Mosher claims that his AI product is better and faster than human investigators.

A

Gtfoh it's funny sometimes and it, you know, it's lyrical at others. So I think that there are a bunch of people that could tell this story and it just would come out differently.

C

Yeah.

A

And you know, there are high stakes here. Right. This isn't like, this isn't funny ha ha, all the way through because you have people who are in prison based on, at least in part on evidence. That's a bunch of bullshit.

C

Yeah.

A

It isn't like we can just like laugh to, like McMillions or something like that, but I think he does a great job of keeping the story engaging and entertaining while still providing all the real stuff. And like, we also get. I think for the first time, I could be wrong, but like a real sit down interview where he's talking.

C

We got that in Wild Boys because in Wild Boys he was a comedian, but Wild Boys was a story that was part of his life.

A

Yeah.

C

So he was able to come to that story and do original reporting.

A

And Dr. Dante, too.

C

He had a couple of Dr. Dante they didn't have a lot of tape. Remember the historical tape? It really relied on his storytelling. This relies very much on his storytelling. But there's a reporting. We heard that this was reported by some other people, but then he also did a bunch of original reporting with them. So we hear him on scene talking to people, which I think makes a huge difference. I mean, it brings, like, a real, like, Dan Taburski esque sort of flavor to this. You have somebody like Dan who came from shows like Destroy, Build, Destroy, and now all of a sudden is doing this incredible journalism because he got a good sense of how to tell a story. He's got, like, the cinematic chops. I mean, don't you think, Lara? It's important, like, in a story like this, which, by the way, in worse hands, could have been. Could have been three episodes long and barely interesting. But in these hands, I think threaded in such a way that it was really interesting. But don't you think the addition of things like moments of lightness is what makes you want to listen to something that could just be really dense?

D

Oh, absolutely. And I think, you know, the way that Sam brought humor to his writing, but also humor in the way that he described some of the things that were happening with different people in this story. Like when he was describing the lawyer, my favorite character again, but he was at his coffee machine and he was in his socks and his hair was all crazy and like. And they're talking about different scenes and. And I think that really kind of captures the culture of, you know, behind the scenes in the legal field, because you have to have a sense of humor in the midst of fighting the injustices that are out there. And I think it was so. I couldn't stop listening to this. It was so engaging because it was so conversational, because it was sometimes, like, one of my friends will say, burker, was that your inside voice that just came outside? And so sometimes Sam would say something, and I go, oh, that's something I was thinking. But he said it, and it was an observation he made about something that was happening in this case. And I was like, yep, it was an inside thought. You're all. But you know what? This is what we're all thinking. And that, to me, brings more credibility to him as a storyteller I'm invested in, because I know that he's on the same path. You're like, okay, he's on a path that is making sense because he's thinking the same thing I'm thinking as he's pursuing this. But he's Telling us he's not necessarily telling the interview subject at the time, but then later he's kind of giving his input. So I, I just really, I found it really engaging, but I found like the first half had a lot of momentum for me with that. And then, you know, we get into some other characters. And mosure himself, that was also very interesting because he was like describing when MoSure comes with like his bodyguard guy and he's like describing the guys, how he was so stiff and like just what you would expect for this type of person. So it really brought the story that could have been really dry talking about technology and computers to the audio format in a way that, you know, it stuck with you because of the way that it was told like that.

C

Toby, are you surprised that this worked so many times before a lawyer thought to take a look at it?

B

Yeah, I think so. I mean, I, I guess, I guess my feeling is, is that like judges probably should have stepped in. You know, I, I feel like a lot of these defense attorneys are so kind of overwhelmed that doing the kind of investigation necessary to figure out exactly what it is, is, is difficult. So you're kind of relying upon the judge being understanding and.

C

But it was also used just to get. Please. Right. Like we have this magic thing that puts you there. So now we're gonna plea out like a judge isn'? Right.

B

Well, that's, I mean, the next thing I was going to say is just that it's, you know, with an exception that we hear about. But in general, you know, in the stuff that we've covered, it's, you know, prosecutors just want to get, want to get a conviction or a good plea or whatever. And so they're not that concerned about it. It's just another arrow in their quiver that they can use to make their case. And whether it's complete bullshit or not, as we've seen in plenty of other situations, they're willing to use it. So you'd like to think that it would have been stopped beforehand, but the resources and the motivations, I could see where it didn't happen.

A

Yeah, I agree. You would think. I mean, it isn't like you're talking about something that has been around for a long time, even if it's questionable bite mark evidence. Right. We have, we now sort of understand that pattern evidence kind of thing to be really dubious bullshit. But it has been around. Right. So if all of a sudden you're in court and some, we have this brand new technology, I just can't believe that a judge would Be incurious about what that is. Or even the prosecutors too. It's like, oh, we can do all this stuff. And you know, so to say, hey, we really need to check this out, or, hey, we keep looking deeper into this judge and there's some real problems here. And you know, okay, well, we'll fuck around for 11 months, right? And it just, I, to me, it just seemed so obvious, at least from the storytelling. Like, yeah, this is shady. And, you know, if nothing else, the fact that you won't let us look under the hood to see how this works, right, That's, I mean, that's a red flag even beyond, like, like you don't have to be the computer genius to realize, oh, this algorithm is whatever. And all the different components are bullshit. It just seemed like on its face, like something you wouldn't want to deal with. Unlike the way you would want to deal with all of our great stuff on Patreon.

C

We have so much content on our Patreon, so much exclusive content business section.

A

And you would love people if you joined us@patreon.com partners in crime media. You'll get all sorts of exclusive content, including the crime writers on After Show. On this after show, big one, guys. I finally get to tell the story about my lawsuit, my neighborhood lawsuit that's been in the works for a year and a half. It's finally over. I'll tell you all the twists and turns. It's worth the price of admission.

C

Can I leave before you do it, since I've heard about it for a year?

A

Yeah, you can go. You can fuck right off in the studio. Cause I know you can't deal with it anymore.

C

I can deal with it.

A

Other great content includes Toby Ball's Deep Dive book club podcast, Married With Podcast, our advice show. And in the latest one, we have multiple questions from listeners whose exes are fucking up their relationships with their kids. Yeah, and they want it. They're very concerned about it. You know, it doesn't help that one of them was like a TikTok influencer. Yes, the new person in the ex's life. Anyway, that's interesting. You'll also get Rebecca and Mel's Something's Off True Crime podcast audio version. Yes, and there's all sorts of of interesting stuff happening in the different civil trials around Karen Reid.

C

Yeah, I can't believe we're still frickin talking about. There's also a criminal trial coming up of Aiden Carney, AKA Turtle Boy. The motion to dismiss hearing drops is the same day this episode Drops and I will be covering that.

A

Yeah. So watch for Rebecca's coverage on that this week. If you come in at the Bricker scale level, you get all of that, including Laura Bricker's Leave it to Bricker podcast. So last time we checked in, you had a great July 4th edition. Are there new things going on in quaint af exeter that you've been looking into?

D

Well, I did leave everybody on a cliffhanger at the last Chaos and the condo board episode.

C

Yes.

D

And I have some updates. There are some developments going on. I have received some information about the property management company that was recently dropped. Dropped by another condo association in town for similar allegations.

C

Wow. I love this.

A

This is. This is the greatest mystery of the summer. I'm loving it. If you join us to Patreon at the let's do what we do level, you get episodes of Crime Writers on early and ad free. And if you become a deep diver, you get to be an exclusive sponsor of Toby Ball's Deep Dive Book Club podcast. Toby, the last discussion that dropped was for your book Murderland. Your discussion of Murderland. And it seems like you had a fantastic panel, but you all seemed a little dubious of the. The central thesis here of the author about why there are serious serial killers in the Northwest.

B

Yeah, you know, I. It's. It's an interesting theory which I hadn't heard before, but apparently is fairly well known, and it's been disproportionately proven or at least shown to be not like, the sole cause of this stuff. So it's. Yeah, it's. It's an interesting discussion. I mean, I think people like the book, but, you know, I, I hate to say it, but it's a little bit like Malcolm Gladwell, where, you know something he does, and you're like, oh, that's pretty interesting. That's pretty cool. And then, like, somebody who actually knows what they're talking about, about that subject gets on. It's like, yeah, that's not. That's not the way it works at all. Yeah, so I, like, feel. Felt like Murderland was pretty similar.

C

Oh, no.

A

We have an Amazon storefront where everybody can go check out see some of our favorite things when they're shopping at the number one online store in the world. Although, I don't know temu. We don't have a TEMU shop, but we do have one on Amazon. Rebecca, what are this week's Amazon recommendations?

C

Well, I would like to promote the purchase of something that I had to haul out to use today that I purchased On Amazon. That is my blueair air purifier. Large room air purifier, which you can use to get smoke, dangerous smoke particulates out of the air. Something that we definitely need in New Hampshire today. Thanks, Ontario.

D

Thanks.

C

Global climate change. Thanks. Climate crisis really wrecking it for the rest of us.

A

Toby Ball, what are your listener inspired? Toby Ball's deep cut recommendations for this week.

B

Should I pack my air purifier and bring it with me?

C

How long are you gonna be here for?

A

You're not even packing your microphone.

C

Yeah, well, you could also just buy one.

B

All right, so we're gonna start off with the. And I'm sure a lot of people have this yr. Yrh. Dash Pet Capybara. Cute nightlight. Kids Squishy fun Capybara lamp rechargeable dimmable silicon touch. I'm sorry. Silicone touch nightlight. A squishy rechargeable capybara nightlight. Squeeze it. Tap it. It glows for up to 24 hours. Only 13.72.

C

Capybaras are so cute. For those who don't know, they're. They're the world like giant rodents. And they have the cutest shaped heads. And they're like. They're the cutest. They are. I think that they're very, very good. They like to swim. They're so cute.

A

Yum.

D

Toby, I have a up on the cat butt tissue dispenser. It was a recent Amazon. Our favorite local historical society woman, Barbara Rimkunis, texted me over the weekend because she had one, and she sent me a picture of it with her cat, Dimitri, who is no more. And she got it. Christmas 2018. We had it for years until it fell off the toilet tank and shattered into many pieces. Our cat Demetri never liked it, and I've always suspected he was responsible. P.S. i loved widow's Bay.

C

Nice.

B

All right.

D

Super.

A

Got a lot out of that episode.

D

Look at this thing.

A

Wow. Toby, do you have another recommendation?

B

Sure. I'm sticking with a theme here. Accoutrements. Squirrel in underpants deluxe air freshener pack of two. A car air freshener shaped like a squirrel. Squirrel wearing underpants for ascended, obviously. 725.

C

Everybody wants a car air freshener. That is a squirrel. You know, I wish the squirrels on our deck would wear underpants. Maybe they would have so much less. We'd have less squirrel poop. Like on the railing of our deck.

A

Yeah, that would also.

C

If I fed the birds less on our deck, they probably would be less squirrel poop. On our deck as well. Just going to throw it out there.

A

Fantastic. Remember to shop usfirst@Amazon.com we earn commissions on qualified purchases.

C

Kevin, before we end the business section, do we have any Patreon Patron Saints of the week?

A

This week our Patreon Patron Saints are Stephanie Patterson and Jasmine Lushke. Bless you.

C

Stephanie and Jasmine. Thank you so much for supporting us on Patreon. Without your support, we could not make this show. That's how we do it because of you who are willing to support support us there. So thank you so much. Kevin. Should we end this business section now?

A

Let's end the business section.

C

Go ahead and fade that music out.

D

Getting enough protein in the morning isn't easy. You want something that fits your routine and tastes good.

C

That's where silk protein comes in.

D

It's a new plant based protein milk

C

with 13 grams of complete plant protein plus 3 grams of fiber and 50% less sugar than dairy milk. Pour a glass, blend it into a smoothie or add it to your coffee for the road. Silk protein helps provide the nutrients you want more of with a great taste.

D

Shop now for silk protein at a store near you.

C

So Kevin, who's the next sponsor for this fine podcast?

A

Oh, our sponsor is Quince.

C

Kevin, I'm wearing a quince dress right now.

A

I know. Hold on, Nana. Don't get ahead of ourselves. The best summer pieces are the ones you end up wearing on repeat. Comfortable, versatile and somehow right for almost every occasion. And quince makes it easy to create a summer wardrobe that you'll love with

C

things like what is this incredible linen wrap dress? I wear this dress all the time. This button down like camp dress. I love it.

A

They've got such amazing European linen products shirts that I have. It's great for the summertime pants I just ordered. Very comfortable yet elegated. I mean elevated. Elevated, but we don't know. Well, you just ordered more stuff from quints.

C

Did you see the pictures? Package upstairs is a pair of pants.

A

Oh, that's.

C

I was European linen pants. I had to try them because they're a new style.

A

Oh man. Oh man.

C

Sorry.

A

No, it's okay, it's okay. At this point though, Quince, please. You must name a whole clothing line after Rebecca because she has single handedly kept several people employed. Yes, I think they're at Quint's.

C

So make your summer wardrobe feel easier. Go to quince.com crime crime for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns now available in Canada too.

A

Bonjour high.

C

That's Q-U-I-N-C e.com crime crime for free shipping and 365 day returns quince.com crime

A

crime

D

everyone's talking about protein lately, but how do you actually get enough of it? Muscle Milk Muscle Milk has a great tasting new formula with no artificial sweeteners, flavors or added colors. It's high quality complete protein designed to support healthy muscles with fewer ingredients than the previous formula and 26 to 42 grams of protein. For when you're stuck in meetings or need a post workout recovery. Available in chocolate, vanilla, cream, cookies and cream and strawberries and cream. Try the new great tasting Muscle Milk today. Available in stores nationwide. Muscle Milk Protein for all. Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile.

C

Now I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of

D

unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back.

B

So I thought it would be fun

D

if we made $15 bills but it

A

turns out that's very illegal.

B

So there goes my big idea for the commercial.

C

Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment of $45 for three months, $90 for six months or $180 for a 12 month plan. Required $15 per month equivalent taxes and fees.

D

Extra initial plan term only greater than 50 gigabytes. Me slow when network is busy. See terms.

C

So Kevin, this is like the idea that there would be AI software that could even place you somewhere and observe you for purposes of a court case that hasn't even potentially developed yet or whatever. This seems pretty unconstitutional to me. What do you think?

A

Yeah, I mean like I was saying before the business action that it just seemed like it didn't pass the sniff test. Right. And you're right. I think, I don't know if it was Lara or Toby that earlier referenced that GPS data that like you find now on Facebook or just walking around with your phone. That isn't how the flip phones work. Right. And when you mix it with this whole sort of idea that like there's other sorts of probabilities that, you know, it's like it gives you a supposedly like a score of like 98.3% probability of correct. You know, it just is, it just seems like the bat computer.

B

Right.

A

And so yeah, I mean I just thought, and you know, it is difficult for these defense attorneys to go after it because they don't have the resources for that. And this is super specialized. This isn't like, you know, this isn't like hiring Laura Bricker to go around and track down witnesses and Follow people. Nothing's like that. Not to say that that's simple, but even Lara will admit, you know, give her a computer program and it's like, I don't know. I'm not the one who's gonna figure this out.

C

Yeah. So Lara, as Kevin put in one of his notes, this is not called Magic's Special Computer. It's called the Expert Witness.

D

Yes.

C

And we actually do get to meet the man, the myth, the legend himself, who created this program and sold it to these municipalities to use. And I don't know about you. I mean, this is somebody who lied about testifying in multiple trials, somebody who sort of lied about what the software does, how it works, how it was devised, yada, yada, yada. And we actually hear from him in the podcast, and we kind of hear his origin story because Sam interviews him twice, I believe, and his origin story is that he liked movies. Yeah. Growing up. Like, what do you make of this guy?

D

He's full of shit.

C

Yeah.

B

And what about the 24,000 number? Was that right?

A

That was 2,400.

B

2,400 times, yes. It's been used by law enforcement. Right. Did the Akron Beacon Journal mishear mosher by a factor of 10 or did he verbatim say this in court? And I'm reading from the official court transcript here. The lawyer asks, how many either archived or real time searches have you done for law enforcement since 2017? 24,000.

D

So, yeah, I mean, we heard about him first through, you know, when the defense attorney's trying to finally depose him and get the information, and they finally have meetings at the office, and after they've had this very adversarial back and forth through the court system, now he's like, Jesus, motor guy. Kind of like, we talked about our kids and he, you know, wasn't offensive in person or whatever, but, you know, and then Sam goes to interview him twice and he. I feel like he really downplays the role that he played in portraying himself, but in a way that was so. I'm like, do you really think we believe this? He's like, well, you know, golly gee willikers, I didn't know that. I wasn't. I mean, I talked to police departments and I thought about going to court, but I didn't realize what it actually meant to testify. I didn't realize that.

C

Just, I didn't know what peer reviewed meant. I thought if a student looked at it, it was reviewed by a pe.

D

So I'm like, dude, do you really think that this Is believable.

C

No.

D

So, you know, but it just, it was, it was like I really started to just find myself questioning what is this guy's deal? Like, what is his personality disorder? If he had like, what is the psyche here that, you know, he gets into this because there's the relative with the child porn and he's going to, you know, that's the segue in. But then to have been so adamant in court about one thing and then had a totally different story when Sam goes out to talk to him, what is, what is this guy's deal? And then my favorite part, when he's like, well, could I talk to some people that use the product that, you know? And he gives them like, literally these people who are like, why the fuck is he telling you to call us? Like, oh, well, yeah, we got a program on it. Or like, we got a tutorial, but we didn't actually use it. It was kind of wild. And, you know, I had a. I think that the disconnect between what we hear in the beginning when he's in court and he's like, just like, this is it. And yes, I've been an expert witness in all these cases and yada, yada, yada, to the end when he's then like, oh, yeah, like, oh, I didn't realize this and that. And oh, here's some people that'll tell. You know, it's like. But the part is people believe him. That's the part.

C

People are still using this bullshit to some extent. To some extent. And there's also a bunch of Reddit forums that say to not use it to.

D

But I mean, the fact that no people, that it took so much for people to question this bullshit story was like, just astounding to me.

B

Yeah, it kind of reminded me of like Elizabeth Holmes or maybe even like the first doctor Death where it seems like there's these people who get this idea in their heads. They want to be a certain thing and they're willing to carry it out even though they know that they're not. You know, and it's just kind of keep it going and keep it going and keep it going. And he seemed kind of like, I mean, doc, I think it's more Elizabeth Holmes than the doctor Death. But, you know, he seems like kind of like a low rent version of that, which is kind of like, I had this idea that was so great and the fact that it doesn't actually work. I, I still want to have that. I still want to have it out there.

A

Yeah.

B

You know, and it was frustrating. I could feel like just hearing the interview, you could, you could see where if you're a defense attorney, you're trying to pin him down on stuff and he's just like, he's just got like these kind of bullshit answers for everything. But they're also just like, at the. You're just like shaking your head. It's like, dude, come on. But he's not, he's not willing to give in. He's just like, no peer review. There was like, somebody at the University of Saskatchewan, some student looked at part of one of the chapters and they said it looked fine. It's like, all right, but isn't the

C

difference between this guy and Elizabeth Holmes that Elizabeth Holmes actually did go to like, Caltech and Dr. Death actually did go to like, medical school? And it's like greed and all this other personality disorder stuff sent them astray. This dude has no background except that he liked movies. And to me, like, one of the most suspicious things of all was when Sam goes to his office and there's nobody there. And it's like, who's continuing to fund the marketing for this thing? Who's continuing to pay these people? Like, the fact that he's been able to rope other people into the enterprise with him when it's just so obviously bullshit is what's completely wild to me. I mean, what do you think about what's going on?

A

Well, it's a business. I mean, it's still like, it wasn't until you guys started to bring up like, these other things. I've been thinking about this, like, strictly from a true crime point of view. Like, this is, you know, one of those kinds of podcasts. But you're right, it does share an awful lot with these business scams that we have heard a lot of. I mean, he's got like four employees, right? He's like, how is he paying them? Well, he's still got contracts with a whole bunch of, you know, small to medium sized law enforcement agencies. Right. Some money is coming in. The, the fact that he's pathological is almost beside the point here. Although, again, like, like I said, like, there's a reason why this is called the Expert Witness. Because as much as the cyber check scam is, is part of the story, he is such an interesting character himself. Like you guys, you know, like the origin story about, like, I came up with this data on my, my brother in law because he's facing like, like sexual assault charges or something, like something like that.

D

Like, look, I.

A

He has all this Child porn that I can prove by.

C

But then he doesn't.

A

And he doesn't. Right. And he never has. Right. And so that's. That's the thing is, I found that. That really interesting in the time that he spent with Sam. I think he was enlightening by being opaque. We certainly get, you know, and he points out. Lisanne points out, like, oh, every time he's got. He's got a very specific number. You know, 91% of this 20. We have 2,500 customers or whatever. He. He just has just such confidence in what he is saying and whether he believes it or not. You know, part of me is like, this is just a pathological guy. But also, you're right. He's also running a, you know, a business here. Right. And he's. He's making money, so he's just trying to keep the gravy train going, even if that means making up shit that puts people in prison.

C

Kevin, what do you think about the fact that we hear it all the time, that when, you know, it finally kind of comes to occur that, like, it is bullshitted out, the cyber check thing?

A

Oh, I know what you're talking about.

C

And then poor Don the lawyer gets to hear what we always get to hear after something's taken 10 million years at the expense of somebody's whole life. And he hears, well, that's. The system worked. That's how, you know, it works.

A

Yeah, this is the scene where, like, you know, the prosecutor, like, pats him on the shoulder and says, hey, don't worry about it. See, the system worked.

C

Right?

B

You let the defense attorney sit on their hands and not raise a fucking objection and put this evidence before a jury. That's not an example of the system working. That's an example of the system failing. And you need to step up and say on the record that Adam Mosher is a fraud.

A

They don't say the system worked because when, you know, there's an acquittal.

C

Yeah, they didn't say that with the Karen Reid case. Yeah, the system worked.

A

Yeah, this is right. This is an admission by the prosecutor. They're like, yeah, we got it wrong, but we weren't motivated enough or cared enough to do anything about it. And we certainly. We let your guy, you know, rot. Rot in jail for. Well, he wasn't in for the whole 11 months, but, you know, for this was hanging over his head for months and months and months. And they're just like, well, we're just gonna let the system bullshit roll along and, you know, Let him figure out, as opposed to just fuck the system. You real life people here, you understood this. You were completely incurious about why this shit was, you know, how it worked. Even though you know now that you're just concerned about all the other convictions that you got. Yeah, that's your fault. Yeah, that's your fault for bringing in junk science. Right? There are definitely people who committed those crimes and that evidence was part of their trial. And if CyberCheck wasn't there, maybe they still would have gotten convicted. It doesn't matter that was in there. It tainted the view. Especially that one juror who says, like, that's the only reason why we convicted him. And it's like, fucking bullshit. It's like, that's your own. That's on you. That's not on the defense for bringing it up. If you have to retry all those cases, that's your fault.

D

Well, and I think the one that makes me really enraged is think about all the people that took the plea deals because this was held out there. And they may not have been guilty, but they were, like, scared, and they don't have the resources to fight it, so they take plea deals. And like, how many of those people, because they couldn't afford to challenge the expert witness and challenge that technology, were found guilty when they shouldn't have been?

B

Yeah, well, it's like a re. It's like cyber read technique or something.

C

Exactly.

B

Well, you know, you're just lying to them and you're like, I've got this data that proves.

A

Proves it.

B

And you're like, well, fuck, I guess I'm pleading guilty.

C

Well, we heard from this prosecutor who then has turned into a consultant for this fucking company. And she was citing incorrectly, by the way, that the Golden State Killer case was the first case that used genetic genealogy. It was not the Golden State Killer case. Which case was it?

A

Kevin Bearbrook case?

C

It was the Terry Peter Rasmussen case in Bear Brook. Barbara Ray Venter did that one first before she did the Golden State Killer case. Anyway, this woman was talking about how, you know, genetic genealogy was such, like, a game changer for the way, you know, murders are investigated and all this stuff. And it's just like, okay, so what's the new sexy thing? Like, what's the new sexy thing? And it's gonna be AI And Laura made me think about your work because you're a shoe leather on the ground investigator. And, you know, we're being challenged in all these other ways in our lives to think about how AI is gonna Change the way we work, whether it's gonna be a tool that makes us more efficient or whether it's going to replace us and do really shitty work as a result. Did this podcast make you ask those questions of yourself?

D

It's funny, we've been having this conversation, a few of my colleagues and I, and there's certain things that I think will be replaced by AI, but AI is not going to go out and knock on a door and find a witness and get somebody to talk to them that wouldn't have normally shared what was going on in the case. So in that regard, I'm like, not. But I do think it raises kind of the bigger question, like this sort of philosophical debate about how is AI going to be used in the criminal justice system? Who decides what actually counts towards, like, science and credible information and evidence. And, you know, you think about, you know, Kevin, you're talking about like bite mark evidence and, you know, shaken baby syndrome and blood stain pattern and, you know, lie detectors and all these other things that at one point in the system were held up as this next great thing. But here's AI and it's like, when do we use the AI? How do we. When do we fact check? We've worried about faulty, like, like eyewitness testimony. Okay, are we entering into like the next era is going to be faulty AI testimony where AI has been used in cases and we find out later, like it, you know, hallucinated or something. It wasn't act and we believed it. So there's a balance. Like I, I definitely use it more when I have like pages and pages of raw notes on something I will use, you know, the copilot or whatever to say, quickly streamline this, organize it into sections and themes and give me some quick. And I use it, but I always go back and then do it myself.

C

It's an efficiency tool. Yeah.

D

Yes.

C

It's not, it's not a substitution for you.

A

Right.

D

Getting enough protein in the morning isn't easy. You want something that fits your routine and tastes good.

C

That's where Silk Protein comes in.

D

It's a new plant based protein, milk

C

with 13 grams of complete plant protein plus 3 grams of fiber and 50% less sugar than dairy milk. Pour a glass, blend it into a smoothie or add it to your coffee for the road. Silk Protein helps provide the nutrients you want more of with a great taste shop now for silk Protein at a store near you.

A

Some flavors can only be crafted by nature. One sunny day, a honeybee discovered a mysterious apple blossom and carried its pollen to a honeycrisp tree. Months later, something extraordinary was born. The Sugar Bee apple. With notes of honey, caramel and molasses, balanced by bright sweetness and an extra crisp crunch, Sugar bee apples elevate everything from charcuterie boards and salads to baked treats and everyday snacking. Ready for some inspiration? Download our free recipe book and discover delicious ways to enjoy sugar bee apples@hellosugarbee.com From Bee to you Hi, I'm Angie

D

Hicks, co founder of angie and one thing I've learned is that you buy a house, but you make it a home. Because with every fix you update and renovation, it becomes a little more your own. So you need all your jobs done well. For nearly 30 years, Angie has helped millions of homeowners hire skilled pros for the projects that matter, from plumbing to electrical roof repair to deck upgrades. So leave it to the pros who will get your jobs done well. Angie, the one you trust to find the ones you trust. Find a pro for your project@angie.com hi, it's Sierra Miller. I can't wait for you to check out my new collection of shoes and accessories at Designer Shoe Warehouse. If you love shoes as much as I do, then trust me, I got you. From cute sneakerinas to the perfect flip flops to stunning heels, these shoes are all style, no drama. It's a girls girl summer. And DSW has just the shoes shop the Sierra Miller Collection right now at your DSW store or dsw.com.

C

All right, let's do what we do. Let's our listeners know should they check out the podcast Uncover the Expert Witness from the cbc, Laura Bricker. Thumbs up or thumbs down for Uncover the Expert Witness.

D

This is a big thumbs up for me. This is, I think, one of my favorite podcasts of the year. I sent it out to so many of my defense world friends and colleagues and I said the first three episodes are going to make you feel really good about doing defense work and fighting the good fight. Because it centers on this attorney who says something is amiss here. Something doesn't add up with this technology that's being used to point fingers at my clients. And I'm going to get to the bottom of it. And then it spirals out into this bigger picture of how expert witnesses are used in cases, specifically the cybercheck technology and the man behind the company and just how widespread this was. And I feel like there was humor brought to this in a way that kept the story engaging. It was, you know, extremely. I binged this. I was out on one of my little hikes around and just, I couldn't wait for the next episode to this. And I think, you know, it really kind of makes you step back and say, okay, what happens in cases where you don't have an attorney that's going to take that next step to fight for you? How many people out there are found guilty or, you know, take plea deals in cases where this kind of technology is not challenged because they just simply don't have the time or resources to challenge that. So I think this was a really great example of, I hate to use the expression the system working, but this was a great example of how people are fighting to keep the system fair and, you know, keep your eyes open. This is literally one of my favorite podcasts of the year so far.

C

Toby Ball, thumbs up for. Thumbs down for Uncover the Expert Witness.

B

Yeah, I think Laura did a really good job of sort of summing up a lot of the things that are good about the podcast. I'll also say that, you know, Sam Mullins has become one of those podcasters who, when I see we're going to review something by him, it's something that I'm definitely looking forward to. I think I've, like, everything we've listened to him that he's done has made it to my top 10 list at the end of the year. So, yeah, he's great in this as well. He does a good job with the balancing act of lightening it somewhat with his humor and stuff, but when things are serious, when he has this interview with a guy who's behind this technology that this podcast is about, it's very good interview. His reflection on it is really interesting. So I thought he did a great job. You know, in some ways, this whole thing feels like a precursor to stuff that's happening now, and I'm sure it's just going to be even more so in the future. So it's kind of taken a look at sort of a bullshit previous version of something that I think is becoming unfortunately more and more real. So, anyway, I liked it a lot, too. Big thumbs up, Kevin Flynn.

A

Yeah, I'm a thumbs up for this as well. I think Sam Mullins did a great job making this story entertaining and sort of elevating the storytelling of it. The story itself is enraging. I. I didn't rage hike like Lara did, but I did rage drive across New Hampshire listening to this and, like, the storytelling I thought was, like, really so good that when we got to the end of episode three, it felt like it was over. You know, not in a way that seems bad, there's nothing left, but it just felt like so completely told at that point. But there's still more to go. And so it kept me, you know, it kept me going that way. A lot of twists and turns. And, you know, it's not just about some weird evidentiary technology that is all smoke and mirrors. It's also a look at the guy behind it. I think that CBC did a great job on this, and I think that there's still education to be had out there in the criminal justice world about whether or not technology like this should be used to solve crime. And I'm doing that with scare quotes. So congratulations, cbc, for shining the light on another interesting topic and doing it in a very entertaining way.

C

Yeah, I love this podcast. It's a huge thumbs up for me and it's a great example of using the talent of a host to its best, like, its best place. Like, Sam is a great orator, great storyteller, great talker, great writer, but he's also a good journalist. And, you know, getting him out there and doing interviews and sort of digging more into this, you know, I'm assuming along with producer, we heard there's also a reporter whose reporting is behind this. It was a smart decision to have him anchor this because he's so, so good at it and he makes a story like this so entertaining. As to the tech itself and the story itself, it reminds me a lot of a lot of the things that really bother me about wrongful convictions or suspect convictions when it's like, well, who is more likely to have XYZ or statistically, this is the kind of person who would have done it, so don't we think this person did it? Like, you hear that kind of bullshit stuff, stuff all the time when you hear about prosecutions and you're just like, yeah, but what about, I don't know, like, evidence? Like, evidence would be really good in my opinion. You know, not just the person's affect or, you know, the fact that they did something once when they were a teenager, or the fact that they were a woman or the fact that they were a man. Like, that's just the kind of stuff that makes me nuts. And this is like a souped up version of that. And the fact that it was such a complete story about it and that there is such like an egregious kind of mastermind, fraud behind it. I don't know, I really liked the whole thing. I thought it was really well done, beautifully constructed, beautifully Edited, beautifully written, and really beautifully mixed. Everything about it. Soup to Nuts made it an almost perfect podcast. So, yeah, this is a big, big thumbs up for me for this one. Now it's time for my favorite part of the podcast, a little something I like to call the crime of the week. A federal judge this week declined to dismiss a lawsuit against United Airlines filed by consumers who said there was no window with their window seat. The plaintiff said they paid extra for a seat with a view only to find themselves sitting next to a blank wall. We know this happens when airlines add additional seats by shrinking the rows. Those rows no longer line up with the portholes. United argued window seat doesn't mean a seat next to a window. It means a seat next to the wall, which may or may not have a window. Aisle seats, however, seem to always be on the aisle. The judge wasn't buying it, and now the lawsuit will move forward. It could become a class action for the thousands of air travelers who found themselves stuck between the fuselage wall and a stranger with BO in the middle seat. So, panel, when you buy a window seat, you should get a window. What's the next big consumer protection lawsuit to get filed? What do you think, Laura Bricker?

D

You know how you buy potato chips and it says it's like a family sized bag and then you open up the bag of potato chips and there's like 10 chips? Yes, that's next.

C

That's it. So the family size needs to be accurate for your giant chip eating family?

D

For my. Yes. There's a lot of tortilla chip eating in my house.

C

What do you think, Toby, is the next big consumer protection lawsuit to get filed?

B

I want somebody to show me a chicken that has fingers.

C

Oh. What about you, Kevin?

A

Yeah, there is nothing magical in those lucky charms. No, no. And I'm upset.

C

Not even the blue diamonds and the purple horseshoes?

A

They aren't actually real diamonds.

C

You know what? They're not real marshmallows either, my friend. Hate to break it to you. All right, so Kevin, before. So, Kevin, I know it's time to end the podcast, but before we go, Lara Bricker, do we have a cat of the week this week?

D

This one comes to us from Aaron Kennedy. I feel you, Aaron. Cat of the week submission. Sully keeps walking in between me and my keyboard and then throwing and leaning himself up against me. Some could say throwing his 16 pounds against me so I'll lean back and let him sit on my lap while I work from home. Why don't I just give in? You ask well, because we were in a heat wave in North Carolina. I'm wearing shorts and Sully doesn't have great control over his claws. Send thoughts and prayers, man.

C

All right, Laura Bricker, folks, want to reach out to you on social media and pitch a new cat to be cat of the week. How can they find you there?

D

You can find me Laura Bricker on Instagram and bluesky.

C

What about you, Kevin? How can you be found online?

A

I'm Kevin P. Flynn.

B

What about you, Toby Ball, obeyball603 on Instagram.

C

If you want want to follow me everywhere, you can find me eblavoie. Find us on Facebook, Instagram, X, YouTube, Bluesky, etc. Rimewriterzon but you should mostly join our incredible Facebook group at the official crime writers on Facebook discussion group. Get everything we make at patreon@patreon.com partnersincrimemedia Our theme song was composed and performed by Tyler Gibbons and our editor is the wonderful Kevin Flynn. The EP of this show is also Kevin. This show was recorded in studio C, the closet in our new where we also make profane notations in the margins of our court documents on behalf of all the crime writers. Thanks so much for listening. We will catch you later.

A

Yeah, so on Monday we'll be talking about the latest season of Deep Cover from Pushkin. It's Deep Cover the Family man, oh

C

man, it is so boring. Cut that. But you're still so broke.

D

I didn't hate it, but after this one that I. After this one that I really liked, it was kind of like, eh, yeah.

A

Partners in Crime Media.

D

Hi, I'm Angie Hicks, co founder of angie from roof repair to emergency plumbing and more. When you use Angie for your home project, you know all your jobs will be done well.

A

Angie, the one you trust to find

D

the ones you trust. Find a pro for your project@angie.com.