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Eligible students get a year of Microsoft 365 Premium and a year of Xbox game pass ultimate with a custom color Xbox wireless controller. Learn more@windows.com studentoffer while supplies last ends June 30th terms at aka Ms. College PC. All right. Nathaniel Gillis. Pleasure to meet you brother.

B

Yeah, it's, it's my pleasure, man. It's my honor. It's great to be on your show. Big fan. Been, been a fan for a long time and it's, it's surreal.

A

Thank you, man. Yeah, your work is fascinating. So what the hell is a demonologist?

B

I go in and do in home investigations and I try to understand the pathology of what a demon is. So I didn't want to take the academic route because if you do take that route, they're going to convince you of their own religious tradition. And what I realized early on was I have what I've been told a demonize. And then I go in and do a home investigations and I'm like, there's a mismatch there. And so I wanted to stay true to the data and not the dogma.

A

Are you religious?

B

Yeah, I am.

A

Are you a Satanist?

B

No, no, no, not at all, man. Not at all. I just, I. I have a fascination with this stuff, you know, Like I grew up in a haunted house and I've just been fascinated with this kind of research for, for whatever reason.

A

You grew up in a haunted house?

B

Yeah. Yeah.

A

What was that like?

B

Terrifying. I was eight years old. My, my parents had purchased the home and we just got in there and I saw a full bodied appari girl underneath my bed or what would become my bed. Yeah. So I originally we took a tour of the home and so my dad's like, all right son, this is going to be your Future room if we end up putting an offer. So I get in there and I remember feeling watched. I remember smelling sulfur or some kind of. Yeah. Ozone or something. I didn't. There was nothing in the room. It was just a bed there. That's the only thing they staged the home with, was just a bed. So I remember being in the room and I thought to myself, I feel watched. I smell something. It's like. Then you'll see. This is common in the research where it's like a rotting or decomposing organic matter, and yet there's nothing in the room at all. And so I felt compelled to get on my hands and knees and look underneath the bed. And there was a little girl, about 8 years old, long black hair, with a dress that looked to have been made during the turn of the century.

A

Whoa.

B

And at first blush, I thought she belonged in the neighborhood. Right. I'm a kid, I'm eight years old. I had no affirmative reference for hauntings or demons or anything like that. And so I. I just remember telling my parents, like, hey, you know, we need to tell somebody in the neighborhood because there's a little girl that snuck in. You know, I thought she just belonged in the area. She didn't. Once we finally moved into that house, I realized after playing with all the kids there, getting to know everybody. Yeah, she didn't exist.

A

She was always there. Every time you looked at.

B

At least that one time. And that's. That's another fascinating pathology.

A

When you saw her that one time, was she looking at you, moving, or was it just look like a dead body?

B

No, she looked like I was looking at you or something. Right. Like literally talking to her. No, not at all. What happened was as soon as I looked up at her, down at her rather, she shimmied her body. Body all the way up to the wall itself. And then I left and I was like, I'm out. You know, so it was very strange.

A

Whoa.

B

Yeah. It was very strict.

A

Was there any other inner, other type of things that you saw in the house?

B

Absolutely. Absolutely. So that's when I realized, like, once I got into that home and settled down in the middle of the night, I would hear something displacing its weight. In the living room, we had wooden floors. Yeah. And so you can imagine like a full grown man with boots on just. Just placing its weight and then would walk into my room, and then I could just feel this malevolence manifesting. And so it evolved. So I never saw the archetype or manifestation of the little girl anymore. Now it was the, like a black cloud that would hover in the corner of the room sometimes. So what's fascinating about that is as I'm going through that and constantly feeling watched, I mean it would follow me when I would go to like sleepovers and play Goldeneye and stuff, you know, because I'm a 90s kid hanging out with my buds and yeah, you could hear the same manifestations and weird stuff. The point being is at the same time I'm going to my local church and really struggling because I'm going to like Sunday school teachers and youth pastors and trying to ask them like, okay, like, what's going on with me at the house? Because whatever I'm dealing with doesn't sound anything like what you're telling me it is. It wasn't like horns and hooves. It was more like an energy field or a parasitic presence that would project terror into me. And then the more fearful I became of it, the weaker I became. And so that's why my colleagues and I in the field believe that at least some of these entities are parasitic and they just feed. It's very strange.

A

So how did you become more educated in this over the time? And like what, you know, there's a, there's a huge gap in understanding or like there's lots of misconceptions of what demons are. You know, whether you're looking at it from a Christian or a Catholic context or looking at it from like a strictly psychological context, you know, the, the idea of demons exists in multiple domains from, from art to psycho psychology, religion, whatever, you name it. What is your like high level view on like what demons are?

B

So there are various traditions and the tradition I grew up hearing about was the nephilim lore, right? So it's a disembodied spirit of Genesis 6 where an angel copulates with a woman and they create this half human, half angel entity and then when that body dies, the consciousness exists in a post biological state. So that was some of the church fathers theology where they believed these were demons. They're disembodied consciousness. What I have come to learn is that I do not subscribe to the Catholic version of demons at all. If you go into various traditions all around the world, you'll see that a lot of these beings have their own belief systems, they have their own language preferences. Not only that, but there's a significant issue with the way they procreate. If it is in fact a disembodied entity, how can it insinuate a woman with A fetus that's a biological being. Not only that, but if you get into incubi literature, which for those who don't know, because I didn't either, you're dealing with an entity that would copulate with a woman, but then would leave secretions and sigils as if it was a practitioner. And so early on in demonology there was this argument, especially with the Church fathers, where it was like, okay, number one, we got a significant issue here, because if they are just disembodied spirits of nephilim, how can they procreate? And in addition to that, why are they leaving sigils? I mean, that's like chaos magic, by the way, where you're combining sigils with secretions. And so what's a sigil? A sigil is essentially, there's two traditions there. A sigil is essentially the symbolic signature of an entity. So let's say if I was a demon and I visited somebody and I would carve my sigil into them, that's me. Almost like branding. Got it. Now, Peter J. Carroll and another occultist named Austin Osman Spare use sigils differently as practitioners, where they would write it down on a piece of paper, mentally project it into their own mind, memorize it and project intention into it and then forget about it. And hopefully that sigil will create an intended outcome. The question though, and this is something I've wrestled with within my own research because there's no real model that explains it, is number one, what would combine sigils with secretions with an intention of procreation? The only explanation I found is that it would be the Red Rite from Peter J. Carroll's research, where you have a practitioner who is trying to replicate his own consciousness. And the only way to do that is to combine sigils and secretions and then possess the fetus that will be in the woman. Now that is called the Red Rite. That was that first originated by an anthropologist called James Frazer. And the idea in antiquity was that a mortally wounded soldier would dispossess his own body and possess someone else so that his body dies, but his post biological consciousness still exists. So within both of those substrates, I believe we're dealing with something that is self replicating itself, self replicated. So that's a lot, Bob.

A

What, what is the incubi?

B

That is an entity explicitly that appears to a woman in the image of a man.

A

Okay.

B

And I've had cases like that all the way from, from here to India, where an entity will be. It'll Be a shadow figure to the left of the side of the vision, and then the individual lays eyes on them. It looks like the husband. And so there's a unique pathology that I can get into here, but that's essentially what it is. An entity that appears to a woman in the image of a husband. So I've had cases where it's deceased boyfriends, deceased husbands. I've had cases where the individual's put in, like, a dream state. Then very bad things, very dark things happen. And then when that entity lets go of the consciousness of that person, that's when they realize my husband's been next to me, asleep the whole time. So that's what my research is centered around, is understanding what I call these interface events. When. When we as a species come in contact with these beings, what happens? Why does it happen that way? And more or less, I'm looking for the pathology. People like Will say, okay, Nathaniel, you believe they're horns and hogs? Not really. I believe there's something deeper and darker going on here.

A

Where does the idea of horns and hooves and the sulfur smell and this whole narrative that is woven throughout the Bible and biblical literature, where does that come from?

B

So one of them is a description of hell, where allegedly these beings come from. And it's sulfur. So they smell like their local environment. That's one explanation. The idea, though, that. That they smell like sulfur. I believe it's ozone. I believe they're affecting the local environment. And that's. And so some of the research my colleague Steve Mayor and I are doing now is looking at the scientific aspect of it, because it's possible that what's happened in antiquity with our ancestors is they're doing their best to explain this. Right, Right. They don't have the scientific method. The best they could do is give us some kind of actionable data, descriptions. But the deeper I get into this, the more I realize that there is some kind of technology present. And then it's not either or it's not spiritism or technology. Whatever we're dealing with seems to have combined both of them, which is the Jack Parsons model.

A

This is the crossover between paranormal and the UFO phenomenon.

B

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that's where the research needs to be, because I think that what's happened here lately is that we're starting to realize that the old answers, they're not actionable anymore. They don't work. And so, if anything, this is my goal as a researcher is I might not have all of the right answers. Maybe I have the right questions or a more correct question to ask. And so that's why my model evolved into not just believing in spirits, but believing in some kind of merging of matter and memory, where it's almost like technomancy, in a sense. And that's where I think we are with the question. It's not just, okay, it's ufology or hauntology. Right. We're no longer looking at those fields as if they're separate fields of research. Even James McCaskey in his book Future Visions came out and said, when I started looking at ufology and interviewing these witnesses, I realized very, very early on that we weren't dealing with strictly ufology, we're dealing with hauntings as well. And that a lot of these witnesses of UAPs were going home to what I grew up with, believe it or not, disembodied voices, shadow figures, hauntings. And so what I'm realizing now is that, yeah, we've compartmentalized this intelligence when it seems to be, according to the data, not the dogma, but the data, that we're dealing with a singular intelligence that's operating underneath the paranormal umbrella. Not either or, not UFOs or ghosts. It's something larger and much more in tune with each other.

A

Now that makes me immediately think of that. I'm sure you, you've talked about this before. The Virginia Brazil case, where the women, the two girls, the school girls were walking home and they saw this creature that looked like a demon, smelled like sulfur, had red eyes, had the little horns, and it had cloven feet. And when I had Dana Diana Pasalka in here, she says she's like, that's the description of a demon from the Bible. She's like, smelled like sulfur, had the cloven feet, had the red eyes, and it also, it ended up killing that guy, Marco Sharizi, who was one of the cops that grabbed it and threw in the back of a cop car. I don't know what kind of a psycho would do that, but he did that and kept it, like, held it in the back of the cop car when they took it to the hospital. And then the, some of the people that worked at the hospital that it was brought to in Brazil said the hospital smelled like sulfur for weeks. And afterwards, what do you, what is your take on all that stuff?

B

So this gets back to earlier question. That's Pan.

A

Pan.

B

Pan. Yeah. So he was the God Pan. Yeah, that's where the horns and hooves legend came from.

A

Pull a, pull up pan. Let's get some imagery.

B

Yeah, so that's Again, that's where the legend came from, that these are all horns and hooves. But that was a later tradition. The earliest traditions were dealing with disembodied consciousness. So here you're looking at a deity. There we go.

A

Head and cloven feet.

B

So that's where that legend originated. Now here's the question. How many times has that image been witnessed in demonology? The cases are very scant, even within Catholic exorcisms and manifestations. What in many cases we're witnessing is some kind of translucent being that has its own energy field. And. Yeah, so this is where we have to separate the data from the dogma.

A

Okay.

B

And I had to do that early on because I went into my investigations, like gung ho. Right. I have a good handle on this thing. I know what I'm going to experience and absolutely not. And so a lot of these things that are being classified as demons are evidently appear to be something entirely different. Not that they don't exist, it's just they were demonized throughout history and people just kind of bought into that idea. But that's panic. And so where I come in as a researcher, I say, okay, but how many times has that been witnessed?

A

When you say that's pan, what you're saying is the idea of the hooves and the, the image of pan, that's where we get the idea of like the devil with the tail and the feet.

B

Absolutely.

A

I'm not in my 20s anymore, and although you can do tons of work to improve your diet and your workout routines, when you start to get into your mid to late 30s, you tend to notice a drop in energy and motivation. And you also should not be relying on stimulants, drugs, or unnatural additives. I want my body to be working the way it's supposed to, which is what led me to Mars. Men. A lot of guys notice changes as testosterone drops with age. Less energy, slower recovery, and a harder time staying in shape. Marsmen is a natural supplement designed to support healthy testosterone levels, weight management and exercise performance with ingredients like Tonkat Ali, Shila G, zinc boron and more. What I have noticed is steadier energy, better focus, and faster recovery after workouts. It's not like a caffeine spike. It's just a constant drive throughout the day. And I love that it keeps things natural. Marsman is made in the USA third party tested, and it comes with a 90 day money back guarantee for a limited time. Our listeners get 50% off for life plus free shipping and three free gifts@men gotomars.com that's spelled M E N G O T O m a r s.com for 50% off and three free gifts when you check out. After you purchase, they will ask where you heard about them and please support the show and tell them we sent you. So do you think that what, whatever that being was that all those people witnessed in Virginia, Brazil, was the same thing people were witnessing in antiquity?

B

I think so. Now I'm very fascinated by that case study. Steve and I had Ronnie Vernier on our show a while ago. Awesome researcher, really cool guy. The curious thing, though, and this is another misnomer in the field, is that if you conjure something, which is what some researchers believe they did, and I believe they did, that it's just going to be some kind of, again, translucent being. But if you look at Ronnie's research, which is fascinating, is that Zay Gomez had created like a cavern in the earth to perform his rituals. And when Ronnie Vernet went there and investigated, he's talking to the locals and they said, okay, there's two things that happened. Number one, we had an entirely different interpretation of what occurred until ufologists came. And then everything that we told them was kind of shifted into, okay, they're more along the lines of extraterrestrials. Okay. Now, according to what I've been told is that Zegomez performed his rituals and then from out of the earth, which is where he was performing his rituals. Right. And he carved like a little laboratory of the earth. Out of the earth emerged a cloud, a mist, which is something that we see often in ritual magic. And from that emerged physical beings. So there is this kind of materialist argument. Are all conjured entities non physical? That may not be true at all. I think that's a fascinating data point.

A

If they're non physical, where are they? Where are they when we're not looking at them?

B

So I am more along the lines of the ultra terrestrial model. Okay. So I do not believe we're dealing with extraterrestrials. The evidence I've collected, it leads me to believe that we're dealing with something that's here. Yeah, right here. And that at times, because they look

A

like they evolved here, Right? Like pretty much bipedal eyes in front of the heads. They breathe this air.

B

Yeah, but it's, it's. And this is one of the more difficult nuances in the research. It's like they're present with but absent from. So there's a late researcher named Paul Eno. He's a very fascinating guy, but he had this idea of the phenomenon where you would have basically two circles and they would both be evolving, and then at times, they would touch. And in that moment, you have a substrate or a meeting to where these entities could climb into our reality because we share that space with them for that fleeting moment. This gets back into Jacques Vallee's case studies, where he had one instance, this is fascinating, where a UAP comes crashing through a tree line, and yet none of the branches were disturbed. They're witnessing it, but it's going through the branches, and then it lands into. On a patch of grass, which is disturbed. You could see, like, there's. There's landing gear, there's some imprints, there's. There. There's disturbance in the grass pattern.

A

Wow.

B

And so the idea that I'm leaning on here is that we. We share certain parts of reality with them. In those parts of reality that we share are where there is disturbance, where you have physical evidence. But that would also explain why that tree line was not disturbed itself.

A

Why?

B

Because it doesn't exist for them. And so we do share certain spaces. Now, the point of conjuring would be to create a space for them to inhabit, to where it actually cuts through both of them, to where, literally, I have created a sacred space for you that we will share. It's not designed to just evolve together until we merge. I'm creating a moment of merging to where you can incarnate in this dimension.

A

Right.

B

So that's one of the ideas, is that it doesn't exist for them. Now we get into Betty Lucas case study. She's an abductee where the same phenomenon occurred, where she's just in her kitchen with her family and these beings walked right through the door. Didn't open it, Walked right through. And yet when she handed them an object, they could hold it. So that aspect of us sharing certain spaces with them, it also occurs in hauntings. I've seen my archive. I have videos of, like, a shadow figure who walked through a hallway, open up the door of a room, walk through the closet completely. So there, again, it points to this sharing of reality. And I think that some people would confuse that with interdimensionality.

A

Right.

B

Well, that's just interdimensional to a degree. But it seems like some things exist in our reality for them, and we share that space, and some things just simply do not. And that's where I'm at.

A

Yeah. You know, we could have a completely different map of reality than whatever these things are. You know, like, we could look at the world, in the universe and. And physics a completely different way. Like the way we fit stuff into our minds and compartmentalize stuff and process and rationalize stuff could be just completely alien, like, no pun intended, to whatever some other entity that we're not aware of that could be on some higher, higher plane of existence to us does. So we just may not have the. We may not. We may not have the right words or the right language to be able to explain what this stuff is exactly.

B

And for the longest time, we were trapped.

A

Even using the word interdimensional, that may be a one dimensional way of explaining what this actually is.

B

You know, and when that is codified, right, where people say, well, if you don't use the term interdimensional, well, you're wrong. It's like, no, we literally, I mean, I. We don't really know what's going on here. We all, we have throughout history are witnesses that are using their own terminology and vernacular to describe something that could be ineffable. We don't have the terms. And in many ways, that's what I've been trying to do with my own research is I've kept. I'm running into things where I don't have the vocabulary to articulate what they are. Even with the incubus, I mean, okay, we go to Father Sinestreya V Amino. He's encountering these demons and their entities. And the church is like investigating what they are. And they were trying to charge these women. This is, this is, this is demonic, by the way, right? Charged them for some kind of sin. And they're like, well, okay, was it a beast? Because they're looking, right. If it is, it's bestiality. And she's like, I have no idea what it was. We have no idea what it was. So what we're looking at, though, it seems to be like intelligences that transcend every known model of the phenomenon. And so the best move I've been able to do, along with Steve Merritt, is where we've kind of realized that we've compartmentalized this thing over and over and over again to where we have our own little boxes, our own fields of research, right? Our own clicks. And yet the. The phenomenon doesn't play by those rules.

A

What have you noticed? Or with all the people that you've talked to and all of the stuff that you've read and learned, have you noticed or seen a pattern in the specific type of people that experience this stuff, whether it be paranormal or UFO stuff?

B

I. There is a pattern. Usually it comes to people when they're really young. So when it showed up in my life I was eight years old. My buddy Paul St. Clair, same thing. Same thing with Steve Mara and we don't know why. Now there is a theory and this is again we're dealing with an entirely different subject. But it's like that they wanted us to be in the field as researchers. So one faction is like dark, I guess that we're simplified, the other one's light. And they initiated us in the field somehow. That's, it's a ridiculous notion by the way. I don't buy it.

A

But they initiated you into the field when you were young?

B

Yes. They wanted us something, wanted us to notice the black cat in the Matrix and to investigate it. That's one explanation.

A

The black cat in the Matrix, what do you mean by that?

B

So my perspective with the paranormal is that we only know about it because it seems to be a glitch. When I was a kid that black cloud on my room should not have existed. Right. And yet it did. It's a lot like Neo being initiated by virtue of them saying hey, you notice that there's another black cat. It doesn't fit. It should not fit. And so then Neo's the deja vu. Yeah. So what is that exactly? So that's one theory. Now here's some more of the malevolent aspects phenomenon that people are being taken from a young age and experimented on by entities. And I've had cases where it'll be a 55 year old woman and she's still being taken and we're doing an investigation and they begin to take her at 8 years old. Yeah. So the question that I guess the jury's still out on what's actually going on there and why. But in terms of researchers that's one theory I lean into is that there's someone or something that wants us to research this phenomenon, wants us to understand and perhaps it is an intelligence that's wanting us to understand reality at a deeper level. I don't know.

A

Or is it something just inherent in kids and young kids that don't have a fully like rigidized framework of reality yet? You know, like they haven't been fully indoctrinated into the modern world. They're still more open.

B

Yep.

A

And they're, they're, they may even have like a deeper, deeper senses like their, their sensory abilities haven't, are, they aren't rigid yet. You know, they have like there's some people that have speculated or I Think that, yeah, there's obviously no proof of it, but like, people speculate that, you know, when you're young that you may have even more of a intuitive way of communicating or getting knowledge or understand because you don't have the ability to really speak yet. You know, when you don't have the language yet, you rely on other sorts of cues and, you know, you could discern that as being some sort of an intuition or something like that.

B

Yes.

A

And before, you know, people also say that, like before the we even had the written word that maybe people communicated this way. Today's episode is brought to you by Quo, spelled Q U O. The business communication system that was built so you never miss a call. Missed calls and slow follow ups are silent killers. And businesses lose momentum without even realizing it. Quo fixes that by letting your whole team handle calls and texts from one shared number. So nobody's out of the loop and customers actually feel taken care of. I locked my keys in my truck at the beach once and I ended up having to call three different locks missed before one answered. Then by the time the first one called me back, it was too late. It's not just that they lost my business, but it feels like they don't even care when they don't answer your call. And you don't ever want that happening to your business. Quo works right from your phone or computer, keeping everything in one clean view its own AI logs calls, creates summaries and flags next steps so nothing falls through the cracks. More than 90,000 businesses are already using this because it fits how modern teams actually work. Money is on the line. Always say hello with Quo. Try Quo free plus get 20% off your first six months when you go to Quo.com Danny. That's Q-U-O.com Danny.

B

It's very possible. One thing I could tell you though, and this gets back into my research, is that the phenomenon is highly deceptive. Highly, highly deceptive. And it evolves according to our awareness of it. And it evolves in order to evade. So one of my earliest cases of abduction included an adult woman who. This is one of those individuals that was taken first when she was a young girl just to show everybody how deceptive the phenomenon is. When they began to take her, they would just show up in a room at nighttime as her favorite cartoon characters. That was the interface. It chose to interact with her. So she's eight years old, eight or nine years old. And she's like, you know, Nathaniel, I didn't understand, like, why is my favorite cartoon Character taking me out of my room at night.

A

Wow.

B

It's really wild stuff. And so the fascinating part about this is now we're getting into the learning matrix in my field, where later on she said she. She wasn't abducted for, like, two or three years, but that was when she had puberty. She. She shot up in height. You know, she. She stopped watching cartoons. She got into literature. You know, she matured. And she's like. And then one night, she feels this intelligent electricity manifesting in her room, and she's all walled up. She's like, they're here. What do I do? And then here comes that little short cartoon character. Now, here's what's fascinating is she's like. Now I'm, like, a foot taller than them, and I'm realizing, this is stupid. There's no way you're a cartoon character. Now, here's something that's demonstrative of the pathology, is that when that took place, that entity, its eyes got big, looked right into her eyes, and she said, nathanael, the only way I could explain this is that it was measuring my belief in its mask. Do you believe I am who I am appearing to you as? And this is very. Now we're getting to the real deep stuff here, buddy. And that's when she realized, like, there's something beyond just an entity here. Because what it was doing was measuring how much. Okay, is it 60%? I can work with that a little bit. Or is it 10? Because if it's 10, what it does and then is. Now I gotta manifest as something else to you. You don't believe in the image. And so there is this learning matrix that the interface pulls from. And we've seen that. I mean, even with Ted Rice's case where his grandmother and him were abducted in one of the entities appeared as the grandfather. The problem is that his grandfather had been dead for a long time. And so what I'm realizing in the field is that what we are seeing may be the least reliable way to interpret the phenomenon.

A

Yeah.

B

Because, again, well, that's pan. Well, that's just a demon. Well, hold on a minute. Now. We have to retroactively track where that originated. You know, so my point is, what this phenomenon does is it hijacks consciousness, us, in such a way that when we're experiencing it, we're being experienced by it, and it's mapping us out. Can I go into this for a second?

A

Yeah. Yeah.

B

All right. So when you get into. Even the sky watcher, they made a statement that really caught my Ear. And they said that we're having a hard time understanding what we're observing when we're observing it. Now that comes from this concept within parapsychology. One of the, one of these case studies originated with Lloyd Oyerbakh where they were in a haunted house and they kept seeing a recurring apparition floating on by. It was a lady in white. And so they had multiple witnesses in that house that saw it. His investigative team saw it and they said, well, the best thing we can do to capture data is we're going to put a camera on it. And so what happened, it changed my, my life, or at least my research entirely, because I'm like, I'm like, oh my God, this is a game changer. So they, with their eyes, they're perceiving an apparition.

A

Multiple people.

B

Multiple people. But on camera, it was just a ball of light. So what they concluded is that this ball of light, what we're calling plasmoids in the field.

A

When was this?

B

This was in the, in the 90s, I believe.

A

90s, yeah. Okay.

B

Lloyd or Box, the researcher for people that want to go look.

A

Lloyd Auerbach, Absolutely.

B

He's a parapsychologist. Point being, though, is they saw an apparition with their eyes and she's floating on by. But what they captured on camera was completely inconsistent with what they rendered by looking at it. Point is that not everything we're seeing is real. They may be a physiological construct, an apparition produced by these balls of light. Now, another case study.

A

Now what, Real quick, what happened when they went back and watched the footage? Did they see the ball of light or did they see the woman?

B

They saw the ball of light. No apparition. Here's why. Because the camera cannot believe there's no consciousness to hijack. Danny, wow. Let me get real passionate now, man. We got into real research, buddy. So, yes, there's no consciousness to hijack with the camera. There's no archetype you may have. Again. So my point though is even with like Dr. Barry Taft's case study, the San Pedro haunting, same phenomenon where they're cornering this, this corpuscular ball of light. Not small balls of light, but like basketball size. They have photographs of this. They're self illuminating. They're on the ceiling or near the ceiling, they're near the ground. And they finally cornered one of these things in a room. He's got his research team with him and they're just looking and observing this orb. And out of nowhere, the orb projects half of an apparition of a man. And it's animated and it's looking at them eye to eye and observing the room. When that happened, his research team fainted. And he said, I could hear them hit the ground. So what we're dealing.

A

Who is the man?

B

What, they didn't know. Just some, you know, projection. L. Ron Hubbard probably was, buddy. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That would have freaked me out. Like what? So my point though is this is part of what I call the diversification method of the phenomenon. Now, here's the problem. In history, we lack the scientific method to capture the pre. Manifestation. Right. We never, okay. All we saw were apparitions. We did not know that they were being projected by an orbit until we got a camera on it. And so here's the problem, and I've said this in other, other lectures, where if all we knew throughout history was the physiological construct of the phenomenon, it created it, then we have mythologized its mask and we may have never really truly seen again that orb that was present. Now that same phenomenon is occurring in the CE5 movement where they see the

A

orbs and then they manifest as different.

B

Yes. Just recently at a conference contact in the desert, there was a group of CE5 practitioners. They performed.

A

CE5 is Stephen Greer's deal. Okay, yeah, got it.

B

And what's so fascinating about this? And I kind of sat on this for a while because I knew it was happening at least, or I thought I knew right where they're observing these. These orbs in out of nowhere, you see faces and you see forms emerging from them. And then people left doing what we've done in the field, right. For the last hundred years, was saying, oh, my goodness, look at the form. It's producing their alien beings, when really it was these balls of light, these plasmoids, diversifying themselves, creating and projecting a physiological construction that if we. Right. If all we had were the apparitions, we wouldn't really have, you know, the orb. We didn't have the orb until we actually put a camera on it.

A

Right.

B

So we have mythologized the mask. But. And I think that's really. It's a dangerous point when we sit there and say, okay, this is fascinating too.

A

Did you say we mythologized the mask?

B

Yes. We go around saying, oh, my God, think about the implications. Well, I saw an apparition of my dear Aunt Edna. Right. It's not her. It could be something different. Now let's go back to the San Pedro haunting because this is a very, very profound Point here. This really did change my game. At least my research was that there is no difference between these lights and haunted houses and these lights in the skies. Orbs. Altitude does not change their ability to project. So what are these orbs projecting in the sky, is my question, that we have taken as actual craft just like we've taken them as actual apparitions. Is it making sense? Yeah, yeah. There's no different. It's just altitude, right? It's just altitude. That's where I'm at.

A

Yeah. The weird thing is when you get into, like, the nuts and bolts crashes, like the one in Virginia and obviously Roswell and the Tic Tac stuff that the pilots were seeing, like, I think people are conflating all this stuff, and because we don't understand it, we're trying to put it all in the same boat.

B

Absolutely. Absolutely. I think we are. And. And I'm not. Okay. I'm not saying I disagree with the nuts and bolts aspect.

A

I think the nuts, and most of us, probably ours, a lot of it

B

is matter of fact, my colleague Steve Marin's lecturer in England years and years and years ago, when Jeff Rens had his website, like, we're talking, like, probably 0605, and Steve had published a video that he took of something in England, it was like a balloon of some sort. And out of nowhere, a think tank here in the States published it as a form of disclosure, as an authentic uap. And Steve had to email them and say, guys, we both know I took the video. You're pushing it as some kind of extraterrestrial presence.

A

Right.

B

So do I believe there's some kind of psyop present? I do. Not that. Again, not that I discount the existence of nuts in both phenomena, but let's go back to Richard Banderick, and I know people have their qualms with him. Richard Banderich is now an aerospace CEO. But 40 years ago, he was contracted with our federal government to go out to gifting fields.

A

Gifting fields?

B

Yeah.

A

What's a gifting field?

B

Where the phenomenon will gift our species. Technology like nanotechnology, metamaterials. So they would give him coordinates, and he would go out with I don't know how many people, and they would collect metamaterials given to us, quote, given to us by these beings. The problem, though, it's so fascinating. He said, you know, he goes, when we would find it, we confirm the location. We would get it in our hands, and it would look like it's metal. His testimony is astounding. He said, but then within 10 to 15 seconds, it would almost dissolve into a dust and you could blow it away in the wind. His conclusion, though, was startling because somebody asked him, like, what did you think about all this? He's like, we came to the conclusion that we were being manipulated by something that wanted to appear to be giving us technology, but it wasn't technology at all. Whoa. Right. So there are aspects of the research that need to be addressed. But again, I don't want to. I'm not gonna say I'm anti nuts and bolts.

A

Yeah. I think the craziest thing about all this stuff is, like I said earlier, we have those. Those stories we have, like the. The pilot Tic Tac stories. We have planes seeing things in the sky, we have orbs, we have ghosts, we have demons, we have whatever you want to call it. And we're trying to put it all together, fit it all together into one puzzle.

B

Yep.

A

You know, it's like, well, what about this? This kind of, like, doesn't make sense. Like, how do you. How do you reconcile that? How do you reconcile, you know, an orb making yourself look like a woman?

B

What is that?

A

And communicating with you telepathically with, you know, some metal Tic Tac that's moving around and going under the water and that we allegedly have. And we allegedly also. And, you know, we allegedly captured some of these beings and we have them in government custody. Like, what?

B

I'm not sure. I'm really not sure about that. No, I'm not discounting these.

A

That's what the government's saying now that we have seven different species of these things. And, like, I mean, it's really comforting that James Clapper is the head of all of this. So we know it's. We know it's really encouraging. Real encouraging.

B

Right. I don't know about all that. Honestly, I. Because there are certain data points that are inconsistent with my research and the research of my colleague. Not that, like, we're experts and gods on this. You know, again, we're just researchers, but there are inconsistencies where it's just like, that's demonstrably untrue. The problem is, is that the compartmentalization has. Has really been our demise in some ways. So my point is there are some instances where one field has a question the other field has an answer for. So for instance, my colleague Steve Marin has had cases of a. Ports. An aport, for those who didn't know, because I didn't know either, is essentially like this coffee mug. Okay. Where. Let's say I would even purchase this coffee mug, but it would just show up in my house. And Steve's had cases like that where the phenomenon will materialize objects into a local environment. And the family didn't buy it. And so they're like, okay, where did this come from? Even more than that, and this is where we get into the pathology, is where the phenomenon would take things from a home. Let's say I did buy the coffee mug. It would take that away. It would go missing for months, and then I would wake up one day, and it's back. So Steve's had cases like that where one family, they had a coffee mug that went missing, and they looked for it everywhere. Out of nowhere, it's back on the table. Right. And so what Steve did is he realized that, I guess they purchased the coffee mug from, like, a Costco or something. It came in another box with other coffee mugs that were made from the same people, all that same makeup. What they did is he tested the coffee mug that was replaced. That manifested against the others, and he realized that there was a different isotopic ratio in the coffee mug that manifested than the other coffee mugs that it was allegedly purchased with. So the idea is, one theory was that the isotopic ratio that's different is the result of it dematerializing and then rematerializing. Another theory is that's not the original coffee mug. The phenomenon took the real one, replaced it with another one that looks like it. It's a simulant. So then what he and Barry Fitzgerald

A

did is they had demons. Everything better to do with your coffee mug.

B

I know, right? Yeah. It's kind of dumb now. So they realized that what was happening is that they would see these reports and they would take them out of the homes as an experiment. Like, okay, you didn't buy this? No. I don't even know where it came from. We're gonna move from the house. When they did, the paranormal activity would go down to almost nothing. And so the idea now is that a lot of these reports are quantum anchors where the phenomenon will attach itself to them, manifest them into this dimension. And now it's almost like a portal. And I hate the word portal, but that's what it appears to be.

A

So attach themselves to the people, Attach

B

itself to the object manifested. Yeah.

A

Okay, I see Quantum acres.

B

Now, he's had cases where one individual, her pet, died, and so she had it cremated, Put it in a little small urn.

A

Mm.

B

That urn went missing, couldn't find it. So then what happened is she went and got another urn, put the ashes in that urn because she still had some leftover. And then years later, she's remodeling the house and found the original urn inside of the wall. So what this appears to be again is that these beings, whatever they are, they can create objects in our dimension that do not belong here. They look the part, right, but they're that black cat in the matrix. Now that's in parapsychology, but even in demonology, the Vatican has cases, Gabriel Morph has these cases as well, where, when these beings were being exorcised from the demoniac, they will begin to regurgitate from the cavity of that person objects they never ingested. Screws, coins, whatever is small enough. Yeah. So here's what's fascinating. The Vatican and even Malachi Martin talks about this, where they will collect these objects. The problem is, and it's not really a problem, it's more like a solution, is that the phenomenon is also attached to those reports as well. So what the Vatican does, what these Catholic exorcists do, is they will take those objects, place them in a sacred space afar or far, far away from humans, because they know the phenomenon is attached to them. It's the same thing with the ports and hauntology, where the phenomenon, when it doesn't want to be vacated, it will replicate something in a house, attach itself to that simulant, and the family will never know the difference. He had a case study of a husband and a wife that were in a verbal disagreement. And the husband looks down and he sees this figurine that's moving, just slowly moving. So he grabs it in a fit of rage and he throws it out the front door. It shoots shatters on the driveway. Husband walks back in that figurine, is right back on that table. He found a simulant. And so what a lot what it seems to be is happening. Here's something crazy. What kind of a demon could do that, right? That doesn't sound like a demon.

A

Was the shattered figurine still in the driveway?

B

Yes.

A

And then brand new one was inside.

B

So what that appears to be, this is what these are glitches in the matrix. It's that black cat where that should not be taking place, but it is. And then it manifests out of nowhere, which kind of implies that we exist in a construct of some sort to where it's built on information, to where at any time of their choosing, they could just imprint something into this reality.

A

Speaking of the Vatican. Wasn't there something that. The Vatican came out with that, where they said that people were going to be trying. They were warning that people were going to be trying to paint religious portraits onto the UFO phenomenon or something like that, or try to correlate it with religion, and they were like trying to warn about that or something.

B

Yeah, I think you're talking about the. Because I think I read that too, where they were talking about apparitions and religious figures.

A

Apparitions, yeah.

B

So the reason they're doing that is because they're realizing that some of these entities will appear as religious figures. And when people try to say, okay, religion doesn't have a role to play in this, that's quite the opposite of the phenomenology. You know, we're talking about a lot of people who have met these entities that will take on the appearance of a religious figure. Dr. Carla Turner had plenty of those cases where it's those. It's. I hate to use the word archetype, but it's a predictable manifestation.

A

So Diana Pasaga wrote about this in, I think, her recent book, where she said somebody was. Had Michael the Archangel hovering over her or something.

B

Absolutely, absolutely. It's that interface. It's no more mark of the archangel than it was Mickey Mouse. It's something different. And this idea, though, that it's present with us, but absent from what's present with us is the mask. I don't think we've actually ever truly seen its form, or maybe it doesn't even have a form.

A

Right.

B

You know, it could condescend itself into our reality to be perceived by us. There's a lot of theories regarding that, but there is an underlying deception present.

A

So what do you think's going on with these orbs? Because that guy Chris Bledsoe sees them all the time and he films them, and they don't always manifest in things, but, like, he goes outside and the orbs surround him.

B

So there's a.

A

Have you seen that stuff?

B

Yeah, I know, it's fascinating.

A

It's crazy.

B

It's really fascinating.

A

I mean, either the guy's the greatest magician of all time, or, like, there's something crazy going on there. And it seemed to be tied to, like, according to him. And if you're familiar with the story, like, the guy's been through, like, insane trauma his whole life, psychological and physical. So the people that speculate that, like, maybe there's a connection between people that have gone through tons of trauma and, like, it opening a portal in their consciousness to being able to summon or see this stuff.

B

I think that is true. And sometimes the phenomenon causes the trauma that opens up that portal. I mean, that's what happened in me, man. I mean, I went through a lot as a young kid. And then later on in life, I started having a lot of paranormal experiences, like precognition and stuff, you know, like, I would see things in some kind of second sight. And I think it does come from my experience as a kid. But getting back to Chris Bledsoe, I think he's generally a good dude. I really do. I just. I said this before, I don't trust the phenomenon at all, though. At all. In those of us like you study the folklore and the phenomenon at large, like, almost like a cultural anthropologist, we go back in time and we say, okay, how many times has the white lady been witnessed?

A

Right, Hathor. Right.

B

Absolutely. So it's not limited to his experience. Respectfully. It's not. It's other people. And even Jim Cinnivant said this. Yeah. People in the intelligence community have witnessed. Witness this white lady. Now, here's something that's interesting. He said that what he witnessed and what they witnessed in the intellect was completely different than what's being presented to us by people, you know, that are creating a narrative where she's love and light. Right. She's just there to raise our conscience. No, she terrified them at first. Shadow figures, Right. What are we doing shadow figures in the home, terrorizing the kids. And this is what we're dealing with again, I thought we're just talking about UFOs, right. Or a white, you know, white lady. No, we're not. We're talking about something that, like, it's the hitchhiker effect, but it's a deeper, darker aspect of it.

A

Yeah.

B

Where I'm going to manifest in your home. I'm going to give you false prophecies. And the problem I have with the field, with this part particular nuance is like, none of that's being presented to us. It's always strictly, well, she's here to raise our consciousness. That's the divine feminine. And what Simivan said is something more along the lines of what we're seeing in the field is like, yeah, she's not all love and light.

A

That's what Semivan said.

B

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. That she terrorizes people and she's being accompanied by shadow figures. And so with respect to the disclosure movement, I think that's an area that they're going towards. That's why Jay Stratton wrote his book. When Jay Stratton's book, it's out now,

A

but he's the guy who advised Dan Farah on the Age of Disclosure movie.

B

Yes.

A

And he basically pointed Dan Farah where to go, who to talk to.

B

Right. So that's one aspect of disclosure that I agree with, because it's what I found to be true in my own research, is that there's a sting in this tale. And it's not just the hitchhiker effect. It's almost as if even some of the witnesses to UAPs, it's like, yeah, we tell the witnessing of the UAP story. Disclosure. Yeah, we don't talk about the shadow figures, the disembodied voices, and the malevolent haunting that followed. And that's why Latsky's work, to me is so important. I know people have their issues with him. It's whatever. I'm after data I don't really care about, you know, who dislikes who. So the data is real. And what he said was, guys, right, we're focusing on, okay, this witness saw that. We're not focusing on the fact that after we talk to them a little bit more, they came out with the fact that, yeah, it's not just UFOs, we're being haunted by something that's in our homes at night time that's affecting our children.

A

Right.

B

And that's why it's so important to say, okay, if we're going to include all of the data, let's include all of the data. Man, that.

A

That's the kind of. That would make me go to church. If that started happening to me, I would start going to church every day.

B

Just some bunny voices. Direct voice phenomenon, though, is. And that's what they're talking about, is some of the scariest manifestations. I mean, you're talking about. Just picture this. It's at nighttime, right? And you're in bed and you wake up for no reason, this has happened. And in the middle of the night, a man's voice calls you by name, and you don't know where it's coming from. It's just there. That's what they're dealing with. And so somewhere within these manifestations, I'm wondering if the UAP manifestation itself or witnessing itself is not really what's going on. It's a pair. It's. It's almost like a parasite, where that's what you see initially, something else is going to come home with you. And that's the true phenomenon.

A

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B

Yeah.

A

I was talking to him about this stuff and he was saying that if he was in charge of trying to figure out what this stuff was, he would. And this is his quote. He said he would take all the people who have experienced it and he would take apart the radio.

B

Yep.

A

As as far as like their consciousness and figure out what's going on inside these people's minds that's allowing this stuff to happen. Like what's significant about them. And then, you know, there's also that. That other dude from California that. What's his name again? Gary Nolan, who says something to do with a basal ganglia and people that have that experience this UFO stuff and experience paranormal activity. They have really dense neurons in their cauda potamen in their brain, which is very odd.

B

That's fascinating. I love. One of Gary's cases is absolutely chaining, because he talks about this instance of a child in France where. And this is another part of my research, where sometimes the phenomenon seeks to be seen. If you could be visible, why would you want to be visible? Right. If you want to be invisible, why would you want to be seen by me? And so you have this case study of Gary Nolan's where you have this child and. And she's in the car with her mother, and through the sunroof, she is seeing again, seeing a craft. And so she begins to describe the dimensions of the craft. The collar. Right. The shape. Here's another example of what we talked about earlier. Right. The rendering aspect, where out of nowhere, the mother's like, okay, I've got an iPhone. There's the camera. The camera cannot believe there is no consciousness to a camera, so it can't hack the camera. So then she takes a photograph of it. And what was witnessed, and this is a key data point in the phenomenology, was witnessed by that child was completely different than what was captured on a camera.

A

Wow.

B

Completely different. Now, the theory that I'm working on, again, is that it's the phenomenon sought to be seen.

A

I think I remember this story. Didn't he explain what. Didn't the girl explain what she saw out of the sunroof as, like, something that had, like, biological skin to it?

B

Something like that. Yeah. And then the photograph itself was like, this metallic object that had, like, points to it. It's really cool. And that's where I kind of nestled in. My research was like, it's possible, again, that it's another to the mechanism where it diversifies itself and. Right. Which one are you going to go document? Which. Right. Okay. It's like the same thing in hauntology. Well, I'm gonna go around and write books about the apparition. No, that's it. That's its rendering. That's what it wants you to see.

A

Yeah.

B

There's something else there beyond, beyond the shadows that we're just starting to capture. And when you're dealing with an entity or intelligence or even a craft that has the desire, not just the ability, the desire to compartmentalize itself. I want you to see this and this only. And meanwhile, something else is going on behind the scenes. That's what disturbs me, because just like we could have been in hauntings and mythologized the mask of the apparition. We could have went around and had conferences about the wrong thing because.

A

Right.

B

So that's where we're at in this. And it makes me think that a lot of times when people say, okay, I know what I saw, that's exactly right. And that's all we know.

A

So whatever these things are, when it. Especially when it comes to the paranormal stuff inside people's homes right at night, is there any evidence at all that these things can touch you or take you or physically handle you or harm you?

B

Absolutely.

A

What. What sort of evidence do we have of that other than just testimony?

B

No. I have a photograph of a person that was being haunted malevolently, and there was a handprint. He got. He got beat up pretty badly. But he has a handprint in his back, and it's the top hand of something. And my colleague ran a. A test on it using ultraviolet light, and they came to the conclusion that it was subdermal under their skin. Take that, and let's go into some of the scarifications we have. So this gets really dark, by the way, unfortunately. So I have a case study of mine. Years ago, I gave a lecture on skin anomalies on experiencers. Kind of compared and contrasted them like abductees to people that lived in hauntings. And I get on the phone call with this individual whose father was a famous remote viewer, at least in his town. So his father would do sessions. He would get information from his guides that he would go and get paid thousands of dollars by, like, politicians and

A

this remote viewer dude.

B

Yeah, he's perfect. Like a professional baseball player would say, okay, like, you know, should I. Should I hold out on my contract?

A

Also, fun fact. All the remote viewers were Scientologists. Take. Do it that way you will.

B

Yeah.

A

Right.

B

Side note, man. Side note. Yeah. I'll tell you what's crazy. This guy was going in and out of his body and meeting these creatures, and he said, you know, it was going well for him for a while. And then one day he came back into his body and he had a coronary. He had a massive heart attack. And I have. It's wild. So the family's there, the EMS is there. They're pulling his shirt off. They're working on him. And as they're looking at his body from underneath the skin of the surface were symbols. One of them was the Star of David. One of them was a cross. The third one was an arching Egyptian hieroglyphic. They emerge from underneath the skin to the surface. And when I actually talked to the son about this, and I got a hold of this remote viewer's diary. This is crazy. He came to the conclusion that this was some kind of species of sorcerers that had led him to believe they were his guides and that some kind of ritual was performed upon him, and that's why he almost died. And that's an aspect of the field that's often. It's very underrepresented. Is that a lot of the physical evidence we have, even malevolent hauntings, is scarifications that begin subdermally, and we cannot explain that. So along with that, getting back to the orbology and this, my dear friend Michael lynch, now he's dead, but he's a great researcher. He had a case. And this is getting into necronetics, my field, where they're doing an investigation. And they kept seeing this orb floating in and out of the man's body. And out of nowhere, he's being picked up off his feet onto a wall, and he can't breathe. And he's saying, Dr. Lynch, it's choking me. I can't breathe. I can't breathe. They couldn't see anything, right? And then out of nowhere, they see this handprint around his neck. And they concluded that the handprint itself was an extension of the orb.

A

Whoa.

B

Now. Now we're getting into my research. Necronetics, which is projected consciousness.

A

Projected consciousness?

B

Yes.

A

Did you coin that term necronetics?

B

Yes. Okay, so in the 1970s, the USSR were performing parapsychological experiments, right? And it's fascinating stuff, but one of their experiments, they took a blank piece of paper, placed it in an envelope, and taped the envelope to a person's head. A psychic medium set. They said, okay, we have a series of symbols. We want you, by virtue of projected consciousness and intention. We want you to put these symbols into this envelope, into this paper. Weirdest paper. It was declassified by the CIA in 2002. So it happened. This is crazy stuff. So then the next experiment they ran was they took that piece of paper, put it 20ft away, go through the same mechanism. We want you to project your intention. By the way, this is a cult science project your intention and your consciousness out of your body. We want to test its ability, your ability to change information into matter. So here's what happened. That's another one of those data points that changed my trajectory. My research is there was a difference, a contrast between the first and second experiments. The second experiment, they witnessed what's called a biofield manifest between the individual and the envelope.

A

What's a biofield?

B

A biofield. Think about a translucent electromagnetic field. A cloud that's visible to the naked eye. And it's slowly moving, by the way. This gets back into orbs inside that cloud. They. They were. They were visibly. They were watching this as these balls of light begin to manifest with that cloud. And it moved across the room, nestled down upon that envelope. Same end result. Here's the thing. One of Dr. Carla Turner's cases, and she's dead now, unfortunately. But she worked on this case study, and I've since worked on it with the family since she's gone. But in this particular abduction, if you will, the mother is sleeping on the couch. The son, who I personally know, and his father. They're watching television out of the corner of the room. They see. And we didn't have a reference for this, right. We didn't know this was kind of an experiment. They see this translucent cloud of energy begin to move. It was hovering through the room. It goes over there and it descends down upon the sleeping mother. Now, 45 minutes later, she wakes up. She claims to have been abducted by a gray alien, but she was covered from head to toe with symbols.

A

With symbols.

B

Symbols, yes.

A

Now, kind of symbols.

B

We're leaning on the bin. That's the best. That's the only symbol, the only symbols that we could find that look the same.

A

Theban.

B

Theban, yes. Again, we're dealing with sorcery.

A

Okay.

B

That's a medieval Alphabet, by the way. Employed by a medieval Alphabet. Yeah. So my theory, one of my theories,

A

she had these things all over her. Now, can you find. Can you look up the origin of this stuff on. Click on that link to tell me what it says about it. Thieving Alphabet, also known as the Witches Alphabet, is the writing system, specifically a substitution cipher of the Latin script that was used by early modern occultists and is popular in the wicca movement.

B

Okay.

A

16th century.

B

The evidence suggests that some of what we're witnessing as orbs is projected consciousness. And that would also make sense as to why it become. Can become anthropomorphic. It's a hand around the neck. Or even with Chris Bledsoe. He was being stalked by somebody that had. He said. Oh, what did he say? He said, I was in the forest and I heard the footfall of a man walking behind me. And he turns around and it's just an orb. So a lot of these orbs I believe to be projected consciousness. And I think the USSR in our federal government stumbled over that concept where you can project Your consciousness into another environment. And that person will perceive your consciousness based upon how you intend them to.

A

Whoa.

B

Joe McMonagle. Right. Joe McMonagle, remote viewer. Remote viewed himself into the jail cell of a terrorist in what the terrorist observed as projected consciousness looked nothing like Joe McMonagle.

A

It was an orb.

B

Yeah. It was a translucent being that floated off the. Off the ground.

A

Holy.

B

So we're dealing with is now. What we're dealing with here is a technology of consciousness to where I could theoretically project my consciousness into your environment either by virtue of that biofield. Right. I could literally perform a ritual on you by virtue of my projected consciousness. And I could tell you I'm a gray alien. And you'll wake up thinking you're abducted, which is what this individual did. The mother and the family's there, and they're like, mom, you didn't leave. You stayed here the whole time. So what I believe, and this is my current position, is that a lot of what we're dealing with in the abduction phenomenon is the end result of projected consciousness of conjurers. And this is exactly what General McCaslin led to in Piola Pier Lavenda. Right. One of the theories being presented.

A

McCaslin was talking about this.

B

Yeah.

A

Yeah.

B

So. So he. Okay, this is a whole breakdown. So he hubbed out of the. Right. Pet Air Force base for.

A

For people listening. Cass is one of the scientists or top generals that just went missing in the last couple months.

B

He was. Yeah, he was one of the advisors to the whole Secret machines series, by the way.

A

He was talking to Tom DeLong. Yes. Yeah.

B

So shout out to Peter Lavender, by the way. Huge fan. Huge fan. Yeah, but they were working with this concept. Right. But their theory was that a ceremonial magician in another dimension. We're in the same framework here, by the way. Right. A ceremonial magician in another dimension is projecting his consciousness into this dimension and we're perceiving it as a UFO or a uap. So within that intellectual framework, by the way, and this is going to be. I know I'm going to get a lot of hate for. This is. That is Collins elite territory.

A

Somebody. Didn't somebody just tell us the other day that the Collins leak was fake or like that was all mess made up? Somebody just told me that. I don't remember who.

B

I'm not a big fan of a lot of their work, at least the Collins elite, But something that they hit on that was fascinating to me, and I want to provide some background to this. I grew up in that haunted house within the Walking distance to Wright Pet Air Force Base, which is the hub where McCaslin was. Was out of and where the Collins Elite and the Stack five is right there. Yes. This is gonna blow your mind now that my house. Okay. So there's. There's airway. People are gonna watch this. They're gonna. They're gonna. Yeah, it's gonna. It's gonna track. There's the Airway Road. There's Woodman. There's Joe's Pizzeria. Then there's Right Pat Air Force Base. I lived in a house over here. I had family members that worked at Right Pat. One of them still does. Okay. One of them told me as a kid that they witnessed a craft hovering above the Rat Pad Air Force Base. And I said, really? I was like, is it like a, you know, UFO was a metallic. They said, no, it was a projection of something. And. And I said, well, how do you know this? They said, because we could actually see as it just kind of retracted back into the. What was a building at the. Right Pedophiles. Anyways, she said it was my Aunt Angela. She said it looked like some kind of projection, not a real structured craft.

A

Right.

B

Let's go to James McCaskey's work. Okay. In his book Future Visions, he talks about the difference between solid looking craft and metallic objects. In other words, he's implying that one can look solid. Right. It's a physiological construct, just like an apparition. But it's not a real craft.

A

This is the Foglets or whatever. You know what I'm talking about? Jesse Michaels just dropped a video about this. Where they have these mountains. There's allegedly this guy who was. Who went on. I forget his name. This guy who went on Jesse Michaels podcast. He said he worked for some private military. Military contractor, and they were doing all kinds of crazy stuff and he just wrote a book and he sent it to the Pentagon to get it approved for public release to figure out. And this was a game he played specifically to see what they would redact because he labeled it as science fiction.

B

Nice.

A

Okay. And basically part of the story is that they have these fake mountains in the desert in Mexico that are made up of something called foglets, where it's not a. It's not a hologram of a mountain because they can. It's. It's. They can program it to be a solid or to be like something that people can fly through. So they're saying they can. They can have it so where their helicopters can fly right through the mountain. But a. A Fighter jet who's chasing that helicopter will explode when it hits it.

B

That's. I think that's what we're leading to.

A

And this is the same thing that a lot of people talk about with, like, these secret bases that are in New Mexico that. Where these. These helicopters can descend right underneath the ground, right into the ground, or emerge out of a portal in a lake or something.

B

Yeah, it exists when they want it to. It's really what they're pointing to.

A

Right?

B

Like, yeah, yeah, it doesn't exist for me, then it'll exist for you. So the physiological construct part about this, it falls right hand in hand with what we know in ontology. That orb can create something that looks real and it's not. And so it's a projection. It's a construct. So with the Collins lead again, so dealing with this idea that my aunt working at Wright Pat, she said, okay, Nathaniel, I saw this craft in the sky, but it was a projection. That's what she believed. Well, the Collins elite again, and I take everything they say with a grain of salt, by the way, but one of the data points that they had that really was fascinating to me was the idea that there were researchers in the federal government hubbed out of the right pattern of force base, who were collectively projecting their consciousness as physiological constructs. In other people, UAP witnesses were seeing what they thought was a craft when really it was constructed, projected consciousness. And I think that plays a role. It falls hand in hand with what I think I'm researching here. But I think that more than anything else, that this is, I think, our government's classified consciousness. I think they know a lot more about that than we do, and that a lot of what we're seeing is it's some kind of projection, not all of it. Yeah, I'm not gonna.

A

You know, do you believe these stories that these people are talking about of kidnapping people out of, like, the desert, like, forests or jungles of Indonesia, and then rendering them to the United States and using them to summon these UFOs and stuff, like feeding them specific diets and something to do with the fact that these people aren't attuned to modern civilization or technology or anything like that, that they have some sort of a sensory opening to be able to conjure this. This stuff, and they're using this in, like.

B

I don't know. I don't know. I. I have heard of cases where children are being used and it's really dark stuff, but I. I do believe that's some. I think that is happening to it, to a degree. And what's so fascinating about, like, the Epstein files is when they were talking about this concept that. Yeah. Like, you would have, like, these, like, migrant groups of people that are, you know, migrating or something. Like, they're. They're trying to get to the United states and, like, 10 of their kids go missing and they can't figure out where they're at. It's Polity's work, right? It's. It's missing 4, 1 1. So I don't really know. I don't. I don't know what's going on there, but I can. I can attest to. Yes. That children have been used to conjure these beings. That's some of, like, the darker stuff. Like, I remember talking to Ronnie Vernet about orbs and stuff, and he was telling us about how that bloodletting in Brazil, like, people would actually cut themselves, and the more blood they let, the more manifestation of these balls of light would manifest. So I think that has a little bit to do with it, but it's. It's really dark stuff. All right, I gotta pee.

A

We'll be right back. What I wanted to ask you earlier was, are you aware of that there was a story that Diana Pasulka told me on. She might have said it in her book where she was meeting with Jacques Valet. He told her to read the Devil book. The book about the devil. Like, these people are obsessed with, like, people like Jacques Valle and Hynek, they were like, all obsessed with, like, angels and demons and all this stuff. And I've read the Devil book, and there's like, no, I don't understand what the hell he was talking about. There. There about. Maybe this. This guy comes from this background. Maybe he was raised in this sort of, like, Catholic sort of world. I don't know.

B

It might be. It might be. I. I recently watched an interview he did, Vale, where he was actually more sympathetic to demonology than I could ever even imagine. He was like, you know, he's like, I'm not a Christian, but he goes, I sympathize with that position. And I can understand why that people would believe they're demonic. But, I mean, look at the archetype, right? Okay, it's horns and hooves. It's like, how much of this is the phenomenon playing on our belief system? You believe I am this. That's how I'm going to appear to you as. Right. So it would be along the lines of what we see may not be real. It may be just what we're most likely to believe in. And that's very Keelian, by the way. It's very John Keel. But it would make sense as to why we have cases of like where you have the phenomenon wearing a mask. Not just that ufo, by the way, you know, like actual entities appearing as something. And then you think you're. The problem is that we're having. Is that we apply rules to that interface, right to that mask. Like, okay, if it's dear and Edna, you're not going to hurt me, you're not going to do anything. If you're a cartoon, I'm going to definitely trust you because you're very innocent. I can trust you. And it's like, no. The phenomenon, aware of that get you into a compromising position and that mask comes off and you realize for the first time, just like the remote viewer, you weren't my guide at all. You were something different. And now you start to see it's the hitchhiker effect. There's something else going on.

A

So do you believe that, like there's actual like what you were saying about, was it Joe McMonagle projecting his consciousness into a cell of a terrorist and the terrorists saw something in his cell?

B

Yeah, I think it was him and Louis Vondo, I believe.

A

Yeah, that's freaking crazy. Do you think that this is happening a lot with like different government programs where they're actually doing this? Like maybe these orbs Chris Bledsoe is seeing. This is something like the government could possibly be doing?

B

Yeah, 100%, absolutely. And so I think that that is the case that our government knows what they're doing and that even with Monagle, that's not a one off case. Okay, we have cases. I have a case study. It's from Claude Locuto's book where again, we're in the 16th century, I believe, where a sorcerer is projecting his consciousness as an alter ego. And whatever he's projecting is being perceived by someone in that environment as. Yeah, in this case it was literally something that didn't look like him at all, but he was experiencing whatever that alter ego was experiencing. So again, I would hate to be dead horse here, but it does sound like our government discovered, I want to say occult science, but it's like they discovered an aspect of consciousness that they're classifying. But that cases like that are all throughout history. And what's so fascinating, because I have that background again in that, that folklore and that, that research, when I heard and at least I read that occurring, it blew my mind because I'm like, well, if you could render yourself at another location as an angel by projected consciousness, what else can you render yourself as? Is right? It's a whole another. It's a whole another field.

A

Wow. Yeah. The, like, one of the things that just blows my mind about Bledo story is how all these CIA people are, like, gravitating towards him. You know, these government officials and NASA people, like, surrounding them, like, be befriending him and even that spooky Tim Taylor dude, like, befriending him and telling him all this insane stuff and like. Like giving him the briefcase holding the medals and, like, having this. Like, that seems like some sort of, like, circus act to me.

B

It very well could be like.

A

Like, not that I'm not saying Bledsoe is making it up. What I'm saying is that I feel like it's that dude or those people intentionally trying to confuse him or make him believe a false narrative about something, but I don't know anything.

B

No, I. I think that that does play a role in it. I also tend to sympathize with Richard Banderick's position where it wasn't just that the metamaterials they held in their hands, they would dissolve in a dust. It was. If that was not designed for you. Oh, okay, right. Then it will return to dust and it'll blend in with its reality. Because if you aren't the one the phenomenon gifted this to and for, it'll dissolve. But if you are, it will allow you specifically to reverse engineer it, essentially.

A

Right.

B

So that way, if you take that again, specifically what he said about holding in your hand, it would appear to me as if there are two things going on. And when I hear Ryan Bledsoe say that the government believed my dad was Merlin, that falls on deaf ears, because. Did he say that? Yes.

A

Who told him that?

B

I have no idea.

A

Find that.

B

I. I'll send it to you after the show.

A

Yeah, Steve will find it.

B

Yep. So I did on the podcast, but it's fascinating to me because people say, okay, that's hilarious. Like, no, no, no, no. He's not seeing, like, from my position, it's not like, okay, he's actually Merlin. Merlin. Merlin was a category.

A

Yes, Right.

B

Not just a person. Later on in modernity, it became a category of a person that was in contact with. With a phenomenon.

A

Well, if I was the government and I found a person, I knew, I. I had the best. I, you know, I knew what was going on, and we were trying to keep it a secret and not let it out into the Public. And we found a person, a civilian, who had some kind of crazy connection. I didn't understand. I would study the. Out of him.

B

Right.

A

I would also make him believe that he was Jesus Christ.

B

Exactly. Exactly.

A

Yes.

B

As.

A

Yeah. Because then way he would go out of the public and people would write him off. Oh, this guy thinks he's Jesus. Get out of here.

B

You would be able to capture all of your actionable data and then after you're finished, dispose of them. Exactly right.

A

That's the best way to do it.

B

And that. That sucks. I mean, I genuinely feel terrible. Like, I. Yeah.

A

If that's true, that's despicable.

B

Yeah, it is.

A

But that's. That's there.

B

It is. It is. It is true that it's despicable, but

A

that's what they've historically done to people.

B

Yeah, yeah. They just throw you away.

A

Yeah.

B

And the sad part about that is it's like the phenomenon leaves them. They're still going through that. It's just the government got everything they needed from that particular case study. Adios onto the next. And so what's even worse than that is convincing them that they're the. You know, that they're the only ones that have seen the White lady and their interpretation of her is the accurate one and nobody else's. And I think, again, that's the government telling them that. Right. Okay. This is the only interpreter. Meanwhile, behind closed doors, they're like, yeah, there's a lot more to her than what we're allowed to say. So. And that's what I think happened, essentially, is that they found out that he was in contact or she was in contact with him. Said, okay, let's test. Right. Because that's what happened. Tim Taylor was at the house, and out of nowhere, he pulls Ryan aside. According to Ryan's testimony, he goes, okay, hold this for me. Or his dad, rather. Hold this. And, yeah, so it's a fascinating case study. I just. I don't trust the government and I don't trust the phenomenon. I just don't.

A

What is this stuff you were talking about? And I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, this stuff exists in, like, a lot of old texts or scriptures about these entities actually impregnating humans.

B

That's the long argument. Yeah.

A

And when did this start? When did this first starting being.

B

Start being documented everywhere? I will. Mainly in the 16th century. A lot of things happen 16th century, by the way. So there were two things going on at the same time in. And then Safdie, Palestine today. Safdie Israel, they were having the debut manifestation or the dybbuk manifestation. And the term dybbuk, this gets really weird, by the way. It means to cling to, but it also means the impregnation of the dead in the bodies of the living. So you would have cases. It's just like the incubi, right? Where it's an entity appearing to a woman in a dream, and then the next morning she'll have bruises on her body that directly correlate with a nightmare to. She's like, okay, this wasn't just a dream. It actually happened. But whatever these beings were, they just wanted her to believe it was a dream so she can go live in her life. Really, they did bad things. But, yeah, that's the incubus, and that's the D book phenomenon. But there were cases of pregnancies that would go missing, and not just that. And this is kind of. It's a. It's hand in hand with the abduction phenomenon, by the way, where it was the succubi. A succubus, a female entity, would abduct a man. So there's a book called Eros and Evil by Ariel Masters, and he details instances where men were abducted by, quote, demons, whatever. Okay. And, like, literally being given a child, and that child looks remarkably like them. The problem was the man would say, I'm a virgin. How could I father a child? So this is why some people, again, that they will look at ufology, demonology, and kind of combine the two, because it's possible that we're dealing with one and the same. It's just these are archetypes of the single source. Right. They're masks. So that's where, like, I got into a point in my research where I kept bumping my head into these categories, and I realized, like, maybe we're dealing with the same things here, you know? And that's why my. Like, my friend Joshua Cutch, another guy to talk to. He's big into fairy lore and everything, and he talks about this subject extensively. Where even some of the fairy lore has the same manifestations. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what we're looking at is either they're all separate intelligence. They're just doing the same thing things. Or we're dealing with an intelligence that's masquerading as all of these one single

A

source of intelligence that's masquerading. Wearing masks.

B

And it's possible. Yeah.

A

You heard of David Huggins?

B

Yeah.

A

Wild story. He lost his virginity.

B

I know.

A

To an alien.

B

Yeah.

A

And had a bunch of alien babies with this lady.

B

Yeah.

A

And she looked like a, like a human. A human with like an alien head. And there was like mantids and all these other things. And like this guy was not public, was not trying to promote any of his stuff. Just this filmmaker dude heard about him and went and made an incredible documentary about it. And this dude just sits in his apartment in Hoboken and makes paintings and does art shows and stuff like this. And no one, everyone writes him off as crazy because it's just such a wild story.

B

You know, the more I get into this research, I don't, I don't write off anything anymore, man. It's just, it gets weirder and weirder as the day goes on.

A

On. So these stories of these people that get impregnated, the. They're temporarily carrying a fetus and then the fetus just vanishes.

B

Vanishes. Yeah. So the missing fetus syndrome is the debate.

A

Is there any modern descriptions of this or like modern accounts of this?

B

There's a documentary called Extraordinary Seating. I would recommend where you have these individuals that

A

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B

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A

But like scar tissue, as if there was a C section or something inside the body.

B

Yeah, in the cavity. That's. That's weird. Now I could tell you that in the 16th century, again, the Dubuque phenomenon is equally as fascinating where Isaac Luria, again dealing with possession and pregnancy. They believed that that possession to us is pregnancy to whatever these beings are. So you would not just have the fetus, you would have consciousness in the fetus. Okay, as possession. It's really wild stuff, man. But in the 16th century, they were having cases where women were possessed by beings that they were seemingly impregnated by at the same time. And so Isaac Luria would hold the wrists. He was a kabbalistic practitioner. He would hold the wrists of these women, and at times he would find two heartbeats in the same body and two pulses in the same body. And so, and this is one of the most mind blowing instances in demonology where they're asking the woman, are you like, what happened to you? Some of this gets it even Islamic exorcism too, right? They have the same methodology where you know you're pregnant with an entity or a being and you know you're a virgin or something. Like, have you had a dream of an entity in the night? And a lot of times it's like, absolutely. So my point though is Isaac Luria and even Hayim, vital to a certain degree, they were doing exorcisms on these women that were possessed. And they asked the question because these women were actually starting to show physically as if they're pregnant. That's why they call it the impregnation of the dead and the bodies of the living. And so they're sh. Showing symptoms of pregnancy, not just pulses, heartbeats, but actual physical Symptoms. And so they asked them, okay, is it possible you're not just possessed by the entity, but you're actually pregnant with it as well? And it kind of changed the course of demonology. Then we would be dealing with would be an entity that would want to impregnate with a fetus and its own consciousness, which is the red. Right. Peter Carroll's red. Right. You find a woman, you impregnate them, and you take that fetus as your own avatar so you can prolong your own existence. Now, that would explain. I'm just brainstorming here, buddy. That would explain why the incubi entity would produce sigils and secretions at the same time. Why? Because he's trying to transfer his consciousness into a fetus, and he can only do that with his secretions and his own sigils.

A

Do any of these. Are there any accounts of these people actually giving birth to these things? Like some sort of immaculate.

B

Now, the mat. Yes, that is. That is a legend. Now, I will give you an instance that, oh, my God, this is how Jesus was born. I don't think so. I. I don't know. I don't think so. I. I don't see any examples of sigils being present, but I think that there is something going on that we're completely ignorant of in terms of reality and existence. Now, Dr. Turner, back to your question about are they happening and what's going on. Dr. Turner had a case where a lady was abducted, impregnated, and they did some memory regression with her, which I don't recommend, but they're doing this with her.

A

You don't recommend it?

B

Yeah, well, here's why, man. You got people. Okay, that and I've had this happen where, like, they thought it was a love and light experience, right? It's like, oh, it was a cool, you know, I was abducted. No big deal. And then they're like, but I want to know everything that happened. And then you do memory regression, and all of this stuff comes out, and it's like, now there's a lot of trauma. Maybe.

A

Maybe that would have been best if it just stayed married.

B

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was Dr. Turner's theory. Like, yeah, we're not going to do that. But Dr. Turner had a case study where a lady gave birth to one of these fetuses and it was no longer alive.

A

No longer what?

B

Alive. And so she buried it. But the phenomenon. This is crazy. It's almost like it possessed her to put the fetus in a glass jar and bury it but that's as far as it allowed her to remember. She could not tell anybody. I don't remember where I buried it. I don't know how far deep I buried into the ground. And so the phenomenon just blocked her memory from the rest. Now, Dr. Turner had one of these instances herself where upon finding out that her whole family was being abducted, she held a family meeting and it was her, her ex husband, her son, and they're all talking and, and her ex husband's like, carla, don't you remember that you were pregnant by one of these beings? And she's like, no, I wasn't. He goes, oh yeah, you lost it. We had to replace the whole bed. Right. Basically. And everybody knew that's what happened. And she also forgot about the whole ordeal. The phenomenon would not let her remember. So.

A

Yeah.

B

Is it happening? Very well, could be. The problem is who's going to remember it? So that's why we have to rely on like the physical data.

A

God, that's so wild.

B

Well, what's disturbing about all of this, and this is a question that was postulated to Dr. Turner. How many people are being abducted? We don't know. Why? Because the only abductions we are documenting are from people who are allowed to remember them.

A

Them.

B

And it's like, okay, well what about the people that are experiencing this thing? They just don't have the memory of it. And so that's when you start having experiencers who start to have post traumatic stress disorder. Like their body starts to bear the weight of the trauma that their mind no longer remembers. So it's really dark stuff, right?

A

Yeah. And why would, and why would some people be allowed to remember it? Or, or maybe not. Maybe they're not allowed. Maybe just by some happenstance like they're, they're, they're neuralyzer fails or something like that. And they're like Chris Bledsoe, when he does have these crazy memories which becomes this like self licking ice cream cone to where now they have all this crazy trauma and that just induces more of this experience.

B

That may be the case. Another fascinating case study given to Us by Dr. Turner. It's captivating because it shows us where we are in this. Unfortunately, we cannot trust what we see with this. Just like I demonstrated early on in the pathology where we see something and then what's on camera is completely different. Yeah, there's a researcher named Trey Hudson, which I'll get back to Dr. Turner in a second, but Trey Hudson has an investigation called the Meadow Project. Remember what I told you Guys, about earlier, about projecting consciousness as orbs. So two things the phenomenon can do when you witness it, it can induce bilocation in the observer. This happened with Betty Luca, her husband, and even Judy Daugherty. Another case study where you literally see a craft and suddenly you are out of your own body and you are witnessed in two places at once. Okay. Betty Luca discovered this with her husband Bob. They're abductees. When they're getting ready for bed, Bob is sitting at the edge of the bed putting socks on. All of a sudden, he's out of his body. His real body is in suspended animation. But there's an apparition of him walking towards her. Same thing happened to her.

A

Whoa.

B

Yeah. So the phenomenon can do that. The second thing the phenomenon can do demonstrated by the Metal Project, is it can change the thermal energy signature of a human being into a ball of light, which goes back into my theory. Right? A projected consciousness of a human. In the Meadow Project, they're. They're looking through a thermal camera. They're picking up a thermal image of one of their researchers that it's on the project and it's in some kind of park, I believe. Yeah. They're in the woods, at least. And they've got him on camera as the thermal image out of nowhere. He's no longer on the camera. He is now just an orb.

A

Was this Bledsoe they did this with?

B

No, this was in the Metal Project.

A

Okay.

B

This is one of their researchers. So anyway, so that's a crazy thing. So we can't trust what we see. Now, getting back to Dr. Turner, she had a case study of an individual who was having a cookout at her house, and she's got, like, a bunch of neighbors over, and she's, like, in a catatonic state here, like, talking to Dr. Turner, like, really emotional. She goes, I don't understand what happened. She goes, the only thing I could say is we are. We're. We're collectively, we're observing this metallic craft hovering above a neighbor's house. We watched this hover for 45 minutes straight. She said, I remember pulling out binoculars, staring at this object, and then passing it down the line, and everybody's got the binoculars. She said, furthermore, I remember using my telescope to zoom in on this thing, and she's like, this happened for like, 40 plus minutes or so. And Dr. Turner said, okay, what's the problem? She said, Dr. Carla, I don't own binoculars. Yeah.

A

Whoa.

B

She said, and then later on that day, I went back and found that my Telescope was still in the box. It was delivered in.

A

What the fuck?

B

Yeah. So we cannot trust what we see. And so the idea here, and this is the problem, that the phenomenon will diversify itself into different masks, but it can also create a virtual reality scenario to where even those who are allowed to remember it. Right. It's a built in mechanism of deceit. Even if I do remember something, is what I am remembering an accurate depiction of what happened?

A

Yeah, yeah.

B

It's, it's. It's.

A

From what you're describing, it makes me feel like it's nothing. It's nothing physical. It's nothing that we can explain with physics. Like a lot of people try to fit this into a box. Like maybe they're. Maybe they're time travelers. Maybe they're from another planet. Maybe they're here. Future humans. They're like an ancient descendant of our ancestors that survived cataclysm and live under the ocean now and that have just mastered gravity and electrogravitics and have technology that can basically cloak themselves and all this stuff. But it doesn't seem like that is the correct framework from what you're describing to fit this stuff into.

B

It's too weird.

A

It feels more like just like, just feel like, just. If I'm going to describe what it feels like, it feels to me more like that we are in some sort of a video game. These are the creators of the video games that are just like coming in and moving stuff around. Kind of like that movie. God damn it. I always forget the name of this damn movie where they come in and they pause reality and they change stuff.

B

Adjustment Bureau.

A

Adjustment Bureau.

B

Yes. Yeah, buddy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I would. And I love that movie, by the way. I think it's a combination of three movies. Four really, if you want to get down to it. So you have the adjustment bureau. You have the Truman Show.

A

Yeah.

B

Where he realizes if I go this direction, the control system will try to stop me. Okay, think about this. That moment and I'll give you all the other movies in a second. But so, okay, that moment of Truman show when Truman's starting to realize like things aren't really what he thought they were. He goes into a grocery store and he sees that. Okay. If he goes beyond the limitations, you start seeing what I would consider to be the phenomenon. Right. Cutting them off.

A

Right.

B

No, look at this, look at this. Why? It's diversifying itself. Look at this. Don't go be. Don't go behind the scenes.

A

Why?

B

Because behind the white doors, right, there was a producer and he realized this is less of reality, it's a stage.

A

Yeah.

B

And a lot of what we're witnessing is stagecraft. There are stage craft and so that's one movie. So you got Truman show, just Bureau. Then you have Dark City, which is my favorite out of the whole Dark City where you have a parrot parasitic species. This gets back into necronetics who are projecting their consciousness to create a reality. And at every night they will get together. This is stack five, by the way. They would get together, let's say at Wright Pat Air Force Base. Just kidding, right. They would, they would connect together, they would congregate and they would project their consciousness and people around them would like one guy would watch as these buildings are being moved and created and they're adjusting the landscape. Yeah. And then the humans would wake up and wow, what's that? So that's a good one too. But what it appears to be though is it's a construct. That's why they can and not just manipulate reality. But I mean, there's been cases and I know this is anecdotal, but Steve was talking to Peter Robbins about this. My buddy Steve Marin, he's like, Peter is like, this could be the weirdest question because nobody wants to answer it because it's kind of verbose. What's the craziest case study you ever heard of? Because for people who don't know, Peter Robbins was a research assistant to Bud Hopkins. And he's like, you know, he goes, bud Hopkins and I, we went to investigate a case where a man was being pull the ceiling by these beings and something glitched out. And so now he's kind of stuck in the ceiling and they had to go and carve him out. Yes, yes. So this is why, and this is so cool too, is why the conversation is shifting. It's be we're beyond the materialistic view or materialist view of, of reality. Me, it's more of an information that becomes matter. That's why the reports take place. That's why they have the ability again to walk through walls, become physical. What does that mean? I mean, I've read abduction accounts, specifically in the book Beyond UFOs with Ray Hernandez, where he's talking about abductees who were not taken out of their bodies, but in their bodies they become non physical. So it's not astral. Right, right. It's literally like changing the way matter exists, how it's structured. And then we're pulled into their environment and then at will they put us back together. It's really weird stuff here, but that's where we're at. I'm kind of done with all of the categories. I just want to look at it. I just want to know, right? Like, quit trying to pigeonhole me to one model. What does the data say? Because I think that if people actually knew this data, it's a lot darker than demons. It's like, wait a minute, what's really going on?

A

Right. And also there seems to be the same sort of pattern happening in, like, these stories of people having near death experiences where their near death experience will match their religious background or their religious belief, whether it be Judaism or Christianity or whatever it is.

B

And that should be a statistical improbability.

A

Yeah, well, you know, especially that Gone in a Flash, or the one where the lady got struck by lightning. Yeah, that one's insane. She, like, leaves her body and she goes. Insists in a garden. And it has all these symbol symbols, like, because she was like, literally walking into her synagogue when that happened. And, like, her whole experience was, like, very related to her Jewish upbringing.

B

Which is strange, because if there is one truth, or let's say if I have my religious tradition, you do yours, right? And there was one objectable truth. Right? Or objective. Objective truth where it doesn't matter what people believe. They're all right. Does it make sense? It's like, kind of. Not that that's what. It's weird. I'll give you the crazy, the craziest near death experience I ever heard of. And I heard it directly from an individual. She was an EMS driver. And when I first met her, she had a scar about that wide right through here. Yet I knew there was some neurological damage. And she's like, look, Nathaniel, I know you want to ask. I'm like, I'm not going to ask you, like, what's good? You know what I mean? She's like, no, go ahead. I want to tell you. Okay, what happened. She goes, I used to drive an ambulance. And she goes, I got a call in the middle of the night to go on a call. And she's like, so I'm flying down this highway. It's in the wintertime. She goes, I hit a patch of ice. I'm ejected from the ambulance and my head hits the guardrail. It dissolves all the connective tissue inside of my skull that holds my brain intact. She goes, if I fall right now, my doctors told me I'm gone. She's like. So I barely walk anymore. And I said, okay. And she goes, but the craziest thing happened. To me, she goes, I woke up in a dementia. And she goes, where there was no pain, I wasn't hurting. The collars were more vibrant. She said. And I remember looking at my deceased father and these are like the cases that really fascinate me. It's like, wait a minute. And she's like, listen, I don't want to go back into my body because I'm pretty sure I'm in bad shape. And he goes, no, you have to. It's not your time. You've got to go back for your boys. And I was like, okay, you have children? She goes, not for a decade.

A

Whoa.

B

Yeah. And like the hair in the back of my neck stood up and I was like, yeah, that's. That's wild. So, yeah, she had two twin boys a decade later.

A

That's crazy.

B

So, like, there are near death experiences where I kind of look at and I think, okay, that's kind of iffy, you know, like it always follows your tradition. But that's a near death experience that I could not explain.

A

The wildest one that I ever heard was there was twins. Twin. A brother. Two brothers, a brother and a sister that were in a car accident. And it was a shared near death experience where one survived and the other one died. And the twin brother that survived explained in a detailed account of what it was like. They were out, both out of body together. And then this being came and took the sister away and then he went back down into his body. Fucking gay. That one gave me the chills.

B

Are you familiar with Ian Stevenson's work?

A

No.

B

Okay, so Ian Stevenson. Oh my gosh, this is another wild one. I can't wrap my mind around this. Anyways, he has an individual, a woman, she has a near death experience. Well, she comes out of it speaking a different language, different memory, changes her name and goes in and moves with in with a family that she allegedly existed with before she had died. So you have literally a near death experience or near death experience. Her who is like on the verge of dying, someone else comes into her avatar, changes her belief system, her tradition, her language, her clothing, her fashion, emancipates herself from her family to join another one. And by the way, she came back saying, yeah, I died, but I'm back again. I forget what her name was, but here's my name, I'm gonna go back and live with my family. It was only case of that happening, but it happened nonetheless.

A

So, whoa, let me make sure I got this straight.

B

Yeah, she had a near death experience, someone else, her soul.

A

If you want to say that one way of saying it was her soul left her body and another soul entered her.

B

Her.

A

Her carcass.

B

Yeah.

A

And then. And then went and did its own thing.

B

Yes.

A

And then what happened? And then what happened to her? Her original soul again?

B

I don't know.

A

It came back eventually.

B

No, nothing.

A

My knowledge, the soul just was gone.

B

That's like the craziest one I've ever heard. And it was. It was a one off, by the way.

A

But it doesn't matter.

B

We only need one to be like. Yeah, that's kind of weird.

A

Yeah.

B

But yeah, I mean. Yeah, like, I've never heard of anything quite like that before in the research where literally. Can you imagine that? Like, you know, you're thankful, you know, like you. You survived the near death experience. Yeah. Deuces.

A

Yeah, it sounds like a. It sounds like a. One of those horrific stories of like salvia trips gone wrong where these people take salvia and then they like live an entire life and like raise a family and children and go through this, a whole thing. Thing. And then they come back and it was only like five minutes.

B

That's, you know.

A

There was this crazy study, I don't know if you heard of it, there was a John Hopkins study on. On religious professionals. They took religious leaders from like Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism and like Islam. And they gave them all psychedelics, the same psychedelic drug. And they wanted to document what their experiences were. And their goal was to find out if there was a common core to all religions. This like, perennialist idea of like maybe all these religious stories that we have written down all come from one original source. And what they found was that all the psychedelics did was just. It enhanced their original religious belief. And like they experienced their psychedelic experience. It had. Their religion was like mapped on to every single one of them. Like they all had very different experiences based on their religious background and what they believed already, which was pretty wild. Is this the. Is this the lady lady who died, went to hell and came back to the human world after two months. Her name is Samitra. This sounds different. Case of possession type in India with evidence of paranormal knowledge. Dr. Ian Stevenson is that guy you said?

B

Yep.

A

Stevenson, father of reincarnation research. He studied the case of children who claim to remember. Oh yeah. Her remember past. This is different, I think. Yeah, I heard about this too. This is what Jeffrey Kle was telling us about.

B

By the way, shout out to Jeffrey.

A

Yeah, he's awesome.

B

Pretty cool. I've never met him, but he seems to be a nice guy.

A

Yeah. He was talking about this too. He died. Oh. Oh. This is the abstract. Okay. This is the exact story that this is. Medium article is talking about. Young married woman Sumitra in a village in the northern of northern India. Apparently died and then revived after a period of confusion. She stated that she was one Shiva who has been murdered in another village. She gave enough details to permit verification of her statements which corresponded to the facts acts in the life of another young married woman called Shiva. Shiva had lived in a place about a hundred kilometers away. And she had died violently there earlier by suicide or murder about two months before Sumitra's apparent death and revival. Subsequently, Sumitra recognized 30, 23 persons in person or in photographs known to Shiva. She also showed in several respects, new behavior that accorded with Shiva's personality and attainments. For example, Shiva's family were Brahmins, whereas Sumitra was Thakurs. After the change in personality, Sumitra showed Brahmin's habit. Brahmin habits and were strange in her family. That were strange in her family. Weird.

B

I think that's some of the most fascinating research out right now.

A

Yeah. So Cripple was saying about the people who. The kids who remembered previous lives. He thinks there was a connection to the trauma or whatever because he said most of the children who experienced past li who said they had remembered their past lives, they were always male in their previous lives. And he thinks that. That the reason for that is that mostly men died violent deaths. More the more traumatic deaths. I've heard that like back in history, you know, because they're the ones that are typically in combat or whatever. So they had the most most violent traumatic deaths. And that somehow correlated to these kids remembering past lives.

B

And that's very prominent in. In the Dubuque literature too, where people would become possessed. Like there was one case that Luria had where an individual possessed somebody to solve their own murder and told the authorities, here's where the murderer is. The. The knife that he killed me with is in his possession. Here's his address. They went and knocked on the door. When they knocked on the door, the individual came out and said, oh my God, thank God. His ghost has been haunting me the entire time.

A

What?

B

Yeah, for a frame of reference that's in the book between two worlds. And then Jewish possession or possessions in Jewish literature. So fascinating stuff. But again, when I got introduced to all this stuff, I thought, okay, it's just sworns and hooves. You know, go to my local church and they're like, that's what it is. And once I got into the data, I'm like, like there, there's a lot of things here that's, it's even more fascinating than that.

A

And then there's also stuff you talked about with deathbed visions where people try to like remote view deathbed experiences. What was that all about?

B

So there's a book I have, it's called, I have. It's called Deathbed Visions by William Barrett, I believe his name is. And it details instances where children who were dying would often see already deceased relatives. And what was strange about that was like some of them, because I talked to an individual that worked in hospice and she's thinking, well, there's a reason for that. The reason our ancestors would come back to us is to help us go through that process. But some of these cases are like, where they weren't even that sick, but the entity is trying to convince them to give up on life. And so it's really weird stuff. Like one case study in that book was talking about how there was like a three month old baby and then like a six year old boy. The three month year old passed away and the six year old boy was still. Was pretty sick. But then like in the middle of the night, that baby came to the six year old and was like trying to convince him to give up. And so the doctor is like trying to convince the mother, like, I know, like you think that's a good sign, but there's no way that's a baby trying, you know, it's something else. House, is what they were trying to imply.

A

The doctor was saying that.

B

Yeah, it's weird, man.

A

Yeah. How to. How would a baby that young be able to even communicate?

B

So there's something else there. It's the interface, man.

A

What could that single source be?

B

I don't know. I have, I've heard suggestions that it's AI. Whoa, like a. Yeah. An ancient version of artificial intelligence. Ancient AI, yeah, that's one hypothesis.

A

God, who came up with that idea?

B

I don't know. I don't know. I know that it was that Jacques Vallee reached, recently mentioned it in passing, but I think that's kind of the new, and I don't want to say narrative as if they're kind of like pushing it on us or they're framing it, but that's one theory. But I don't know. I mean, whatever we're looking at, it evolves. It evolves according to our awareness of it. You know, if I didn't. Okay, that, that young girl, when she said, okay, I don't believe that you are my favorite cartoon character. That entity began to glitch in and out, and it was just like, well, what do I become? This gets back to some of the old Collins elite research where there was a paper being passed around federal government. They believe that these entities exist in some kind of cryptid consciousness or some kind of. Of alien physics. Not extraterrestrial, but just alien to us to where the more you believed in them, the more they would manifest. Yeah, it's very strange.

A

Yeah, there's something there, I think, with belief, you know, because I, I feel like that's a trait that is common within humans. The more you believe in anything, the more it typically tends to manifest, no matter what, whether that's a belief or whether that's like you believe you're pre ordained to start a Fortune 500 company one day and like, you start to live your life according to these beliefs and that it will eventually manifest. Right. It's sort of, it's sort of a common theme with lots of things. And there's even this. We talked about this recently as well. There's this, this Hindu zombie cult that's based in Haiti. Not Hindu, but it's basically like a zombie cult. It's in Haiti where these, these dudes, they take this pufferfish venom that like paralyzes their body. And what happens is in, according to the tradition is what they do is they bury them as if they're dead and then they exhume the body after like a day or so and they come back as zombies. Like, they literally walk around acting like zombies. And this one Boko, poor guy who controls all these zombies can like tell them what to do. They sometimes lock them up. And so this dude, Wade Davis, I believe his name is, did some research on this, specifically looking at the, the pufferfish toxin that these people in Haiti were taking. And he wanted to see if like, he could do some sort of a study, like a placebo controlled study to see like, maybe this happens to everybody. And basically the conclusion of it was it's just the fact that they're taking this drug and there's this historical sort of cultural context that is like intertwined into these people's worldview.

B

Yep.

A

That makes these people believe they're zombies and somehow they walk around like, like zombies, and it manifests into all the new generations of people that are born here and raised here inside this culture. So there's this whole cultural, cultural matrix that's involved that helps these people believe.

B

Yeah, Then it's like, okay, what is belief?

A

Right.

B

What are its properties? You know, there's a book out there called Conscious Acts of Creation and William Tiller's in it and he was a Stanford researcher and he performs this experiment. He's got again this group of researchers together. He created, he created what's called an intention imprinted electronic device. And so he places this device in a Faraday cage and it's kind of like, you know, Collins Elite stuff, right? Projecting consciousness and belief and intention into this device. Their goal was to take that device, charge it with intention, belief and consciousness, place that in another location and change that location's environment. Specifically, they were placing this object near water in the way they would measure the difference and the effects is they would measure the PH level. They wanted to raise it 2 or 3 degrees or whatever in the ph. They did that. It was documented that it actually occurred. So they had charged this thing, this is so crazy, with intention, belief and consciousness. And it began to affect that other environment. And what's crazy is when they took that object out, then they root it from that environment, the effect stopped. So that's another way they, they measured and realized, okay, it's us that we're doing this.

A

Yeah.

B

And so it does seem to be a little bit like the approach that we're finding in homes that they very well may be consciousness charged. So much so that in Tiller's research he called those environments like where they were affecting the environment, they would call that environment. They were conditioned environments.

A

Right.

B

So a lot of this seems to be at least consciousness based and belief based. But how much of me believing in the interface of the inner, like what does that do? Why would it measure the belief? You know, it's, and I asked Barry Fitzgerald this years ago, another researcher in Ireland, is it possible that it will, the phenomenon will render itself as to something into something that we would find easier to believe in and then funnel that belief into the actual source. And that maybe that's why it, it diversifies itself. Right. In other words, if you believe that I am dear at Edna, you're going to empower me, the person that's actually wearing that mask. Same thing with the same thing with all the other.

A

Well, maybe none of this stuff is real in the sense of the term that we would consider it real. Maybe it is just something that lives inside the human psyche.

B

Yes.

A

And the best we can do is try to explain it in the English language or whatever our language is. And normally people, they don't think of something in the context of living inside of consciousness.

B

Yeah.

A

Or being enveloped by consciousness only. But if something is. Takes that much of a hold on you and you really do believe it, to you, that thing seems real. And then you can see how that can sort of develop its own sort of life form in, like, the lore and the literature and the media and podcasts and stuff like that. And then that narrative can be spun into something. And before you know, it's like this crazy telephone game where now it's like you. It. The. The whole. The whole source of this stuff just gets lost in the chaos of all of the messaging and all of the way people try to communicate it and write it in books and who knows, maybe like ancient source texts of religions and stuff like that. Like, who knows, man?

B

Perhaps the most indigestible theory that I've heard as of late, it's along the lines of the Matrix, but within context. So contextually speaking, the Matrix, right, is the hologram. It's the virtual reality. But that within the movie, that virtual reality was not just being produced by consciousness. It was being produced by what it. It was ever producing consciousness to produce the construct.

A

Right.

B

It's behind the brain. They plugged them in. So the most indigestible theory I've heard as of late is that it's not hacking reality, it's hacking belief. It's hacking, like, literally, not just consciousness, but whatever's beyond consciousness that's projecting it. So it's not the Matrix, it's whatever's producing the matrix that has been hacked by this. This phenomenon.

A

Oh, Jesus.

B

Right. That.

A

That's hard to even comprehend.

B

Well, that would explain why it's okay, it's the black cat. Why? Because it's here. And it can't be here unless it's already here first. So somewhere, yeah, it's. It appears that consciousness itself is hijacked. Now, let's get to that theory real quick. Let's go back to that Gary Nolan case study.

A

Yeah.

B

If, in fact, some of my research is accurate. Not saying it is, but just, you know, whatever, that the phenomenon seeks to be seen, what it appears to be doing is it's hijacking consciousness by triggering the observer effect. When you observe it, it changes what you're observing. Now, if the phenomenon seeks to be seen, and then observing it creates another interface with that girl, I'm observing a craft, but as I'm observing it, there's something else here. Which one of those are real or more real, and why? Because one's captured on camera. Okay.

A

Exactly.

B

Now, the problem is, again, it's like, is it possible that the phenomenon sought to be seen so we could collapse the observer effect so that I could hijack the consciousness of the observer to conjure something out of them? And now you have an entirely different craft there, not one way or the other. Two, right? Two.

A

Yeah. It is interesting that these things that are like orbs can still be seen by everybody with the naked eye, on camera, on video, Right? Absolutely. But like other people see something else, it's projected to something else inside their heads and communicates to them. It's very hard to understand. It's very, it's very strange. And then like going back to like the belief part of it too, it kind of ties to what that telepathy tapes thing was doing because like one of the problems I had with the telepathy tape stuff with these non verbal autistic kids being able to communicate with their parents and communicate with each other and go to this Hill thing or whatever, is that like to really test this stuff scientifically, you have to be able to get some sort of a, a mentalist stage magician in there to actually observe it and make sure there's no going on. Because, because any of these mental lists can replicate that stuff with using tricks. And their excuse is that can't happen because the, the energy that they bring into the room, the skeptical energy that they have because they don't believe it, that will disrupt their ability to perform. So that's one of my issues with that. And it just seems to tie into all of this other stuff somehow to

B

believe it, then it's true. I just, I don't know. Honestly, I'm to the point now in my research where I trust very little of what comes from the government. And not that I distrust everything, but I compare and contrast it to what I know to be true in the field. And I just, I want to say like, if all we're going to get is disclosure from ufology and it's okay, I saw a craft in the sky, we've completely missed the moment because again, Catsky is like, guys, it's not just UFOs, that's a branch of a paranormal tree.

A

Yeah.

B

And so if all we're going to do is focus on that and ignore. Okay, for instance, here's another reason why we need to focus on parapsychology to a degree is like, you know, again, Steve Maris had cases of orbs that will transplace audio recordings on devices where the tape is placed outside of the device and the orb will float over it and imprint a voice into that divine. In that tape. And they're in two separate places. So again, if. If all we're going to be saying is, okay, yeah, we. We have lights in the sky. It's like, okay, that's cool. But it seems like there's more to the story that we're not being told.

A

Yeah, 100%. And it also is very weird that Epstein and all those types of folks are, like, super interested in this stuff.

B

Yeah.

A

You know, like, Epstein was really interested in this parapsychology stuff. He even did, like, zoom calls with. He did a zoom call with. What's that dude's name again? Dean Raiden. Dean Raiden?

B

Yeah, you heard of him?

A

And Dean Raiden showed us how he, like, he told us that the. He tried to bend spoons his whole life, and he never did it until one time he was able to do it. And like, Epstein called him and wanted him to teach him all about bending spoons and stuff. And he was funding these scientists, and he had a fucking ranch right by. In New Mexico close to one of those labs, and was really into eugenics and. And all this stuff, and even, like, really interested in, like, ancient Greek stuff. Weird.

B

That. And you combine that with Les Wexner saying that he's possessed by a debuk.

A

Les Wexner said he was possessed?

B

Yes. It's weird, man.

A

When did he say this?

B

I don't know. Whenever. I don't know. Files. It was in the files, I'm pretty sure. God, Les Wexner. Yeah. Is either that or an article. But, yeah, possessed by the debu. Get like, he's got to do things for it, and sometimes he gets inspiration and like. Yeah, that's weird, man. I would never admit to that, by the way. I would just be like, you know, I'd be like, I don't know, guys, maybe I'm just successful, right?

A

Yeah. But, you know, he made. Epstein. Made people call him magus. Like, there was. It's in the files where girls are, like, literally addressing him in emails by Magus.

B

Yeah.

A

What's that about?

B

It points to him being on the cold and spirit.

A

Is this it? Oh, my God. On the morning Leslie Wexner became a billionaire, he woke up worried, but this was not unusual. He always wakes up worried because of his debuke, which pokes and prods and gives him the itch. Itchiness of soul that he calls Spike Spilks. Spikels. Spikels. What the. Dude, that's so weird.

B

Well, if you look okay, and he's yeah, he.

A

This dude, like, owns Ohio.

B

Yeah, yeah, no doubt. I'm. I'm from Ohio, so. Yeah, I. Yeah, but look at what he's essentially saying. He's talking about the impregn. At least again, according to Between Two Worlds, and then even Jewish views of the afterlife for those who are. Are book readers. But you can't have that, you know, Unless it's impregnation of the dead and the body of the living.

A

He met his debuke again when he climbed Vale Mountain and changed his life. What the. They're going all in on this, aren't they?

B

It's crazy.

A

Find more Debu quotes. What's he getting into here? That's the next one.

B

One.

A

Leslie Wexner's Debu. The demon that always wakes up in the morning with Wexner and tweaks and pulls at him. When he was a boy, his father called it an unformed. He called I skipped a line. His father called it tummel a churning. So he feels molten and unformed, pricked by these spiritual pens and needles. He met his. He met this demon again when he was 40 and already worth half a billion dollars when he climbed the mountain in front of his house in Vale and almost froze to death and decided to change his life. This demon he calls Terminal Spikeles, which makes him wonder. Wander his house from house to house, repeating the pattern of his childhood on a luxurious scale, wanting more. Swallowing companies larger than his own. It is precisely the reason that Wexner has a. A billion and didn't stop at, say, 5 million and a new Mercedes. Wow, dude, this is wild. When was this written and who was it Published by Again? 1985. August and New York Magazine.

B

Yeah, and there. There's one I read where he actually did that.

A

Say, Jim Semivan. Where did you catch that? No Sullivan.

B

Okay, that's about three hours, guys. I gotta get the airport. I'm just kidding. Oh, my God. That was awesome.

A

I'm glad that didn't say Jim Sim.

B

I know, pal. I'm like, all right, edit, edit, edit. Now, something happens to people when they

A

get billions of dollars that. When they. When they achieve this sort of, like, untouchable level where they're just above everything in society, they start to, like. They start to get into this angels and demons and, like, ancient mythology stuff. They start to start to, like. They start to try to poke their way into another dimension. It's very odd.

B

Makes me wonder if they're not an avatar themselves, you know, sometimes. You know what I mean? It's like, okay, who's doing this? You or whatever's inside of you. It's. It's just weird to me. But yeah, I read that. I was like, like, lines up. You're hanging out with old Epstein. Yeah.

A

Yeah, man. It's super strange. I don't know. What. So what, what, what? I mean, are there any descriptions in any ancient literature or anything like this that have a similar theory that there's like some weird source that's behind all this, like, masking itself? Like, I know you said JA thinks it's some ancient version of AI that in passing, but.

B

Yeah. So I'm going to give you one of the weirdest case studies I've heard and I've done tons of them today. But you can't reason with the sun. Trust us, we've tried. This summer, it's time to put that angry ball of fire on mute. Columbia's Omnishade technology is engineered to protect you from the sun's harsh rays that can burn and damage your skin. The sun is relentless, but so is our gear. Level up your sun summer@columbia.com to spend more time outside and less time slathering on aloe lotion. You're welcome, Columbia. Engineered for whatever.

A

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B

Eros and Evil is witcher literature, and I know a lot of it's been debunked. I didn't know that, but there was an instance where an individual was flown out, not on a broom, but, like, just taken out of her home. Her husband wakes up and he still thinks that his wife is in bed. Who was taken? She's not. It looks like her, but it wasn't. So they believed it was a familiar spirit. The phenomenon replaced her with. It's really weird.

A

Yeah.

B

Point being is that when she got back, she told her husband, I thought that I was on the backside of a mountain, copulating with corpses and demons, performing ritual magic. She's like, but. And this gets back to the Matrix, the virtual reality scenarios. I'm going to put it in my terminology. There was like a Frequency that fuzzed out. And now she's seeing where she's actually at. She's not on the back side of a mountain. These weren't demons or corpses. She was being poked and prodded by metallic objects that. That had the shape of a man, if you know what I mean. And so it was like this kind of ritualistic experiment using technology as well that she was involved in. And the phenomenon had made her think, right, like, here's where you are. She wasn't anywhere near that location. So. So this is why I try to stress that. That. And this is what our federal government's trying to do, too, is like, it's not just esoteric lyricism or technology. These are not dichotomies anymore. They're dualities. And. And that's what Jack Parsons taught us, right? He's like, look, this is not just ritual magic in. In rocketry or. Or rocketry. It's. It's both now. It's both.

A

Yeah.

B

And so that's why you have, like, Project Gateway. That's why you have the psionic asset, which I haven't even seen. This closure day. I'm gonna see that when I get back to Ohio. But this idea again, the USSR included this in the article where the brain looks like it acts like a crystal, and you could actually fit something on the head and project your consciousness along with it, and you could use that as a psychotronic weapon to affect people. So this idea that it's one or the other and it's too binary for me, and that's why. And I have a couple friends in Brazil, and they're researchers, and their government's doing the same thing.

A

This is kind of what that Satan book talked about a little bit. Now you're. You're ringing a bell for me. I remember there's part of that. That Jacques Vallee, that French Carmelite book about Satan, where it's. It's. It's. Again, it's expressing Satan through a very Catholic lens. And it's explaining that. Yeah, this is the COVID of it. 666 pages. It's explaining that.

B

Yeah, I heard that.

A

It's explaining that. It's. It's. It's not binary. It's not like good and evil. Like, that's a misconception. It's saying that Satan is at the highest hierarchy, cephalum, I believe it's called, of the angelic hierarchy. And he is a perfect being. He is perfect in every way. He has all the knowledge of everything. He can see the future. He can see the past. He understands everything. But he like, chooses to do evil and to try to afflict humanity. And he's not an opposer of like, he's not an equal and opposite force of God or Yahweh, whatever the you want to call it. He is just like this fallen angel who is constantly trying to afflict humanity and push against it. But he's not just as powerful of God. So it's not this like, it's not this equal and opposite binary force. It's just this like what you said, it's more of like a duality.

B

Yes and no. I, I'm aware of what he, he at least described the book as saying. I recently purchased a book by Professor Astro Mori. It's called God's Monsters. And so she's a, she's, she's either still at Union Theological where she left recently, it's called God's Monsters. She has another writing another book called Women's Divination in Biblical Literature. Both fascinating. God's Monsters starts out by detailing every entity in the Bible, old and new, or at least in the Old Testament, rather just old. But the idea at the very end of her theory was that each and every one of them answer to God. Every single one of them. And that's kind of messed me up a little bit because I'm like, we got a problem here. Because one of the questions is, okay, why would God let this happen? And if her theory is correct, it's kind of disturbing.

A

According to the Satan theory, the Satan book theory of why God would let this happen. Why would the, why would God let the devil do all this stuff and kill people and have children starve? And all this stuff is that that makes the human. It makes humanity strive to be greater and to keep humanity vigilant and to drive humans to prayer. That's what it says. So take, you know that with a grain of salt because looking at it through a very, you know, religious lens. But that's. It doesn't make sense, man. A lot of this stuff, that's the problem with the religious stuff is it's a very, A lot of it is very contra. It contradicts itself everywhere. You know, like one of the big things about believing in God to me, which is very contradictory, is that if you believe in God and all omniscient and all omnipotent being, that means he knows everything that's going to happen in the future. That means he can see everything that's going to happen, how things are going to play out in everyone's lives. He knows exactly what's going to happen. Well, if you believe that, that means there is no free will. So if you're gonna build your society based off this idea, well, then how the. Do you even have prisons? If we don't have any control over our own ideas, over our own actions, that means everything we do is justified by God. Well, you can see how that could be, like, a very dangerous way to.

B

It's a dangerous. Yeah, they're just gonna look at it. Precognition and predestination may be two separate things, Right. I see it happening, but I didn't cause it to happen. Does that make sense? Yeah, there's a lot there, I think. Now, getting back to this. Okay, this is crazy, too. So what we've learned is that the phenomenon is precognitive, which feeds in. Okay, who is it? What is it? Precognitive. Up to at least 16, 18 months, Steve Mara was running an experiment and he was getting EVP work where they were telling him where he would be. Different communications from the phenomenon. You'll be at this conference. You'll be doing this. And so it got to a point where now we're back in a Truman show where they told him through some medium where he was going to be at what time. And so he's like, you know, Nathaniel, he goes, I decided to do everything backwards, right? He's like, if I was going to do something, I wouldn't do it. Or if I was gonna. He's like, basically trying to.

A

Whoa.

B

Yeah. Right? Like, if I was gonna turn left, that, you know, if I was gonna go here for lunch. I decide it's basically trying to reprogram the matrix, right? This is weird stuff.

A

Yeah, but it still wouldn't work. It still wouldn't work because if you. That, that idea came from somewhere, right? That idea to do that started somewhere.

B

Yes.

A

So, like, if I just like. Like that was seeded to him through some event, right? That idea to do that for him to make the decision to do the opposite of that.

B

So who's first calls?

A

Exactly.

B

So this gets back to, like, some of our pilots. People, like, so astounded that, like. Well, they knew where our coordinates were. Right? Like, okay, so you're, you're radio. And back here. And you're. You're in your, your. Your generation, got your, your craft and your radio and back. And so they're like, okay, here's our undes. Here's the coordinates, but don't tell anybody. It's like, yeah, but. And then they show up to the coordinates and a craft is there. It's like, yeah, but who put the thought in the mind of the person who chose the coordinates? The phenomenon did.

A

So what happened to this person who was trying to live his life in reverse, trying to do everything backwards?

B

Steve Mara. He landed right back where they told him he'd be. So I was like, all right, what am I supposed to do then? Yeah, there's some trippy stuff out there, man. And a lot of this point points to a construct I can go into. Okay, first of all, I don't know how much time we have, but the scientist thing, okay, when they're all going missing, it's 3:50, okay?

A

You don't have to leave here for another hour.

B

Yes. So the scientist thing, okay, it's not new. Like, in the 70s, there were a bunch of scientists that went missing because they were researching the phenomenon.

A

Were they researching the phenomenon?

B

To a degree. Physics, that kind of thing. Now, Professor Renee Hardy was. He's an academic, he was a scientific savant. He had like tons and tons of patents. But in the book Dark Gods, which is another book to read, it'll really freak you out. That's a crazy one. But they talk about this case of Renee Hardy where he just ends up missing. The family finds him deceased and allegedly at his own hand. I mean, we've. We've seen that recently, right, with the scientists. Like, why would they do that? They would never do that. Well, likewise, his famous, like, okay, like we know him. We were planning on going on vacation or something. He would never do this to himself. He was researching something, you know, private about the phenomenon. But anyways, they have. They have his funeral. So everybody goes to his funeral. He's a very famous guy, very popular in his field. So he's got, you know, like family members, he's got students, he's got fellow professors and faculty there. And the pregnant silence before the funeral begins. The back doors open, six men walk in, nobody knows who they are. They sit down, go through the funeral, talk to a couple people and leave. So as families do, they go back home and they're conversing and they're eating, like, okay, man, that was crazy. Like, yeah, you know, Uncle Ted looks pretty good. You know, he's looking. Losing some weight, you know, all that kind of thing. And then one of them goes, yeah, but who are those six men that walked in at the very, you know, the very, very beginning? Like, I have no idea. I remember talking to them. I'm pretty sure, right? I took a Photograph of them. I know I did because, you know, they were right behind a couple family members that took a photograph. So they go back to look at the footage and they never showed up on camera to anyone.

A

Men in black.

B

Men in black, yeah. Part of the construct.

A

Yeah.

B

Show up in the construct. That. That's what I'm leaning towards.

A

Yeah. These stories are so crazy, man.

B

Yeah, I know.

A

And they're so anecdotal.

B

Yeah, I know too.

A

And you know, one of the craziest things to me though is how this is all connected to like the space program with like Jack Parsons and all these people. Like the founders of NASA were just a group of occultists.

B

Yeah.

A

You know, some of the stuff Jack Parsons was doing and saying is just so. Like some of the ritualistic stuff he was involved in and his connection to L. Ron Hubbard and Aleister Crowley and all that stuff. It's just, you know, the history of that stuff is so wild. Just a bunch of Nazis and occultists who formed NASA and try to figure out how to go to the moon.

B

Jpl, I mean, you're for the most part, you're predominantly looking at a self taught scientist in Jack Parsons.

A

Yeah.

B

And being educated on part of the phenomenon, I'm equally as fascinated by Marjorie Cameron. Right. The divine feminine or the elemental that they allegedly conquered or conjured. And so fascinating to me though is there was a conversation that Marjorie Cameron had with Jack Parsons at the parsonage and she's like, you know, your ritual must have been successful. And he said, why? She said, because I witnessed some kind of strange craft in the sky. Yeah, very strange stuff. But whatever that is, it kind of falls in line with ceremonial magicians projecting themselves in this reality. Wherever we go in the conversation, it's always like, oh, well, there it is. You know, there's something very connected to the occult that's present. It's not a buck in this. It seems to be a feature.

A

Yeah. I mean that definitely seems to be like one of the most hardcore pieces of evidence that this stuff is really serious and is really real because it's a fact. Those people were very much involved in that stuff. And you know, the hit. Just the history of the space program and like even the symbol, the symbology of the. The they put on these rocket programs like in Vandenberg and like the names of them, like the Apollo program and all of those things and how they're connected to all these Greek myths. And you even had the Tim Taylor guy saying he said something like they visit us or something on the way there and then bled so asked too. He's like, it's our sponsors. Or maybe that was D? Pala or something. Yeah, yeah, he talks about the sponsors. This dude's like believing in. He believes in this crazy. And he also is also simultaneously, simultaneously claiming that he downloads information that helps him devise these million dollar patents. First things. It's too, it's really too. It's too crazy to be real.

B

Yeah, I agree.

A

But it corroborates all of these anecdotal stories that you're talking about. So like you can't. You cannot write any of this stuff off.

B

No. And that's one thing this phenomenon's taught me is that every time I think something's crazy, it's like, no, it'll one up me and then. And it'll. One of me was something that I know is for sure. And it's like, oh man. So I have to include everything else at least.

A

Right? And not. And, and also you can't discount the stuff that the. These like scientists are not scientists. These astronauts that allegedly, you know, went to the moon, like Edgar Mitchell, who did these to these. Telepathy. Not telepathy, but these like ESP experiments on the way to the moon and stuff like that and seeing things. And these people were acting very funny. There's something very spooky about the whole space program.

B

It is. It's very strange stuff. And I just, I'm wanting to know what esoteric value the government has. Like what are they doing? You know, when Pasuka was talking about like rituals or just ceremonies where you have Barack Obama over here, you know, the leader of the free world, and just look in this direction when we launch this rocket. It's like, well, okay, you've got the leader of the free world doing something he doesn't really understand. You know, he doesn't know any of this stuff, to my knowledge.

A

Yeah.

B

And it's like. But yeah, we're trying to appeal to our sponsors here, right? It's like, well, what are we talking about here? Who are your sponsors? If that's. That's the leader of the free world, by the way. And you're like, stay here, we gotta appeal to someone else. It just, it makes me wonder like, what do they really know about this? Because it just doesn't make any sense. And by the way. And I. And if they're going to be sigilized and carving symbols on a rocket, like what do we. I just, I don't know, it makes me question the narrative of we have Bodies. Okay. For instance, Peter Levindo. Okay. And he mentioned this on Jesse Michael's podcast. It's fascinating discussion, but he mentioned being in contact with Michael Aquino.

A

Yeah.

B

And dealing with this idea of non human biologics.

A

Yeah, he told me that, too. He said he went to a conference in Las Vegas with Michael Aquino.

B

Yeah, it's like, yeah, but they're like the base, basically. If I can summarize it, what he suggested was, yeah, like, first of all, Kino's like, I don't believe in any of that UFO stuff. Like what? And then he goes, yeah, non human biologics to us, whatever the term was. It's like, okay, it's just stuff that's collected at the bottom of, you know, the spaceship when it's re. Entering Earth's atmosphere. To us, that would be not. It's like, well, is it. God, is it possible? Like, our own federal government is just like, yeah, sure it is. Guys giving us words that they know will take home and we'll believe it's one thing. And they didn't lie to us. They just never gave us the contextual framework to navigate it. Like, this is what I really mean when I say that. But this is what you're going to hear. You know what I mean?

A

Yeah. What could they mean? What do you think they could mean? Like, in the. When they're talking about non human biologics?

B

So if you look at what Aquino said, it was essentially whenever a spaceship leaves the Earth's atmosphere and reenters whatever is collected outside of Earth's atmosphere and then re enters, that's called. They consider that to be non human biologics. So it's, we think, bodies. So it's basically what they're. What he was applying.

A

So it could just be like, microbial stuff.

B

There we go.

A

Bacteria.

B

There we go.

A

Well, someone was just telling me that they have this stuff that survives on the outer portion of the International Space Station. Remember Alyssa Carson was telling us about this. There's some sort of stuff that. There's some sort of bacteria or some sort of, like, microbial life that is actually being collected and surviving on the exterior of the International. International Space Station. I mean, that could be considered non human biologics, and they're surviving in space. What the is that about?

B

Well, yeah, we have bodies. Okay. It's like, well, what are we talking about here, man? There you go.

A

Whatever the hell that word is. Dino. Cocus radiodurans is the most prominent bacterium known to survive the harsh exterior environment of the International Space Station colonies of these radiation resistant bacteria can survive in open space for up to three years. Yeah.

B

Who knows, man? I just don't. I question a lot, man. I really do.

A

Yeah.

B

About the narrative. And if they're not going to disclose the presence of abductions, then it's not disclosure. That's where I'm at.

A

Well, they got to do one step at a time. It's got to be a slow drip.

B

Yeah.

A

What do you think about. Did you hear the story about allegedly all these pastors were getting invited to meetings with government officials to talk about this stuff so they could like, sort of like slowly inculcate the story into the churches and get them sort of used to it then. So one of these pastors went, made a video saying that it was Berlitzen.

B

What's that?

A

Whatever. I forget the guy's first name. Eric Berlitzen.

B

Right.

A

He said that Eric Berlinson is the one who basically told him in this meeting with other pastors that there's no God and humanity was engineered by extraterrestrials or something like this. And then. And then Eric Burleton came out and was like, no, this is completely false. I never said this. And then the guy actually recanted it. It's like, oh, I'm sorry. Yes, I had a meeting with Eric, but he was telling me stuff. And then I started to just regurgitate what I believed. So. But I don't know. I don't know what to believe there.

B

I really don't either. My good friend Tony Merkel was there. He has a connection podcast called Professionals, but nice guy, love him to death. So I don't know if there was one or three meetings because you also have Perry Stone coming out. Right. Coming out. And he was like, oh, yeah, that. I can. I can say concur that that actually did take place. And then it's like, well, these other group of people were at one meeting and that didn't take place there. But then the same people that had briefed like the first group had briefed like the rest. It was. It was. It's confusing to me.

A

Yeah.

B

I really don't know what's going on there. I could tell you this much that the Catholic Church, at least from a priest that Steve and I are in contact with, or at least Steve is this priest, disclosed that. Yes, we are. We've been briefed on some of that. So I don't know. But again, here's the problem, and this is just from my perspective, when you have people like Anna Paulina Luna, who's being given stuff in. She's gonna say, okay, this is what it looks like to me. Right. And the problem with that is that if you don't know the phenomenon. Right. Or if you don't know the research, don't know the history of this thing, it would kind of just be like, okay, I'm gonna reframe into my world view. And that's what this is. And then next thing you know, you have like, AI AI renderings of angels. And it's like, that's not even what it. It just. It disturbs me. But I. I'm interested in why our government would believe that they created us. Is it possible?

A

I don't think they believe.

B

You don't think so?

A

No.

B

Yeah. I don't know.

A

I don't think if they were going to tell us something as crazy as that, I don't believe that they would actually tell us if that was the truth. I don't think they would say, probably hide it. There's probably some sort of. Some sort of. Of mechanism there that is intended to impregnate some sort of belief into the public psyche. Or. Yeah, it's some sort of psychological operation or something like that. Or maybe it's. Yeah. Or maybe it's just like a distraction or just a way to just poison the well and get people fighting and arguing online. There's a million. There's a million. That's the problem. Them. There's a million reasons why they would do something like that, Right. And I think one of the least plausible reasons is that they would say it because it's true.

B

I don't think that they would disclose it to us if it was true. I mean, that wouldn't just destabilize religion. That would create other questions. Who created them? If they created us, who created them? Right. Then you'd have, like. It'd be Hitchens and Lennox going back, you know, again. You know what I mean? And be like, well, I don't know. Because it opens up a lot, lot more questions than people realize. It's like, okay, well, you know, if. If we're supposed to be an accident and they're even more sophisticated, you know, are they an accident too? It's just convoluted for me.

A

Yeah, it really is. Thanks for doing this, bro.

B

Thanks for having me on, man.

A

Yeah, my pleasure. I had fun. Where can people learn more about your work and find your stuff online and all that?

B

So I'm just on. I don't do social media much. I'm on Instagram. I have my own platform called Paris and Posio. If people want to support my work and find more of it, my YouTube channel, Nathaniel Gillis, and then I'm doing NHI discussions with my buddy Steve Maram, so.

A

Okay.

B

That's where I'm at, man. Thank you for having me on, brother. My HD kicked in, dude, and I was everywhere at once, so appreciate it.

A

My pleasure, man. I really enjoyed it. We have Patreon questions for him. We do.

B

All right.

A

We got some Patreon questions for you. So we'll cut the podcast here, and we're going to go to Patreon. Thanks again, bro.

B

No problem. Good night, world.