A

Foreign. Hello. Welcome back to the East Meritches Podcast with Kags and Kyle, where we discuss kids, technology, and growing up in today's worlds. Michelle. I'm Michelle Cagliano, AKA Kegs.

B

And I'm Kyle Gorton, AKA Kyle. And welcome back. Welcome to our second episode. We're going to continue discussing the New York Times bestseller, the Anxious how the Great Rewiring of Childhood Is Causing an Epidemic of Mental Illness by Jonathan Haint.

A

Yeah. So we've enjoyed doing our first podcast and we're excited to delve deeper into the book. Before we begin, I have a question for you. And I know you don't know what this question is.

B

I don't know, but we share all our notes. But I don't know this question yet.

A

Do you have nomophobia? Do you think you have nomophobia?

B

Can you use the word in a sentence?

A

So many teens today have nomophobia when their battery gets to 50%.

B

Is that the fear of your phone dying?

A

Yes.

B

Is that a real thing?

A

It's a real thing.

B

In the Webster's dictionary, it's possibly.

A

Yeah.

B

Huh.

A

Yeah.

B

I don't. Although when I does get to 20%,

A

that's where you panic.

B

That's where. That's where I panic. Or I'm very careful about my phone use at 20%.

A

So it makes me wonder, like, where does the panic come from for teenagers, right? Because for us, we're parents, right? So we're like, oh, no, if our battery dies, like, yeah, I can't get

B

in communication with someone.

A

But for them, what do you think it is?

B

I will not survive. I won't make it out alive if my phone is dead. That's what it is.

A

They're not thinking, I need to get in touch with my parents because that's. They don't even answer the phone when I call.

B

It's the fear of I'm sitting here with nothing to do and no phone.

A

Social anxiety, Right? Like, what do I do if somebody talks to me? I can't just stare at my phone and pretend that you know. Right?

B

Yeah. So in conclusion, no, I don't have. What is it? Nomophobia.

A

Nomophobia.

B

Nomophobia. All right. I'm gonna have to use that. Yeah. All right. So before we get. Before we dive in, we have a couple shout outs. Cause we've gotten some great feedback from our first episode. The first is Mrs. Rountos. Muriel Rantos. She's a teacher at our middle school and she runs our game club. She sends us a very, very nice email. Complimenting us. But in running our game club, you know, one of the things we talk about is if we want kids to spend less time on screens and more time face to face, we have to, yes, free play. Right. Or less supervised play, but give them opportunities to. To do things face to face and

A

teach them how to take turns.

B

Yeah. What better way to learn to take turns and social interaction and problem solving with other people than playing a board game? So thank you, Mrs. Rontos. A second one is East Merchants alumni Jack Bielski, who we got a nice shout out from that Jack doesn't know that we heard from him, but his mother, who is a teacher here, let us know. And Jack, we want you to know that your mom said, get off your phone.

A

And lastly, such a paradox, right? Because here we are saying, get off your phones, get off social media.

B

But unless you're listening.

A

We also want them to listen to our podcast.

B

Unless you're listening. And lastly, Grammy, which is my grandmother, who sent me a very nice text that she listened to it and is sharing with friends and family.

A

Aw, that's so sweet. I got a lot of positive feedback as well. And just people saying, like, you know, they're trying to have these open conversations with their kids and, you know, sometimes it is too late to not give it, but it's not too late to change habits. Right?

B

Absolutely. Absolutely.

A

Yeah. And yeah, I think that was all I had to say about that.

B

Yeah. So leave a comment. Right. Send us an email. You might get a shout out.

A

Yes, that's what I was going to say. There were a few good comments too, on the website, which was great. So last episode, right, we discussed the four foundational harms. We talked about what kids need to be positive adults and grow up with four new norms. What children need in childhood, free play, social learning, attunement agency.

B

Yeah. And I think the challenge we set at the end, which was kind of like our after listening to the podcast, what do I do next Discussion, conversations to have. We said, what can we do to give kids more opportunities for independence, free play, and responsibility in the real world? Have you thought about this? Have you put it into practice or seen some examples of this or even had people reach out about, you know, giving kids opportunities for independence, free play.

A

So as I walk to my classroom every morning, there's always clubs and stuff going on in the morning. And Mr. Walt has an amazing game club that she. She hosts. And. And you know, it's amazing, you know. Cause I hear her explaining the rules of like, guess who? And like, all These games that we used to play when I was little and my kids were little and things. The kids never heard of them. They don't even know how to play them. They don't know how to take turns. They don't know how to read the rules and figure out how to play, you know, and she's there if there are disagreements, but I don't hear her stepping in. Right. She kind of steps back and lets them figure it out. And I love that.

B

Yeah.

A

Fosters that independence.

B

Yeah. One of the things that came to mind is I just finished coach. A basketball season just ended, and we were coaching, and me and Mr. Balzano coached the two basketball teams. And at practice, a lot of times, we will give them, you know, allotted time to play one on one or two on two, three on three, which the boys love. That's their favorite time. And have more competitive as well. Yeah, it's more competitive. It's not a drill. That's what they want to do. They want to play with their friends. But, you know, a couple of times, kids arguing, and what do they do? They come to the adults, they tell us what happens, solve our problem. And. Yeah. And we have to say, you can figure it out, you guys. You know, it's your game. You figure it out.

A

Yeah.

B

And in like, 30 seconds, they do. It's not that they're incapable, but I think a lot of them might be used to. Well, there's a disagreement. The adult's gonna step in, tell us what to do, tell us what to do. You know, but in a lot of cases, especially they're, you know, 12, 13 years old, they can figure that out. And that's such an important skill to say we have a disagreement, One of us is gonna have to give in a little bit.

A

Yeah.

B

To compromise so that we can keep playing the game.

A

Yeah.

B

And they do. And they figured it out.

A

Yeah. When we come in from recess, I know I discussed this last time a little bit, but the kids. There's always an issue, Right.

B

Always.

A

So whatever. So it was after recess, and we were getting ready to start the next lesson. And, you know, we have rules in our classroom, and I do have, like, some flexible seating options. So two kids get to the same seat at the same time. Right. So what do they do? So we've gone over what to do. We've gone. You know, we've done all this, but for some reason, this time it was. They were both insistent that they got there at the same time. So, you know, the other kids, they're talking about it well, what do you think? And I just kind of stepped back and let them talk. And they're looking at me like, aren't you going to tell us?

B

Yeah, aren't you gonna tell us who's right and who's wrong?

A

Who's right? You know, who's gonna sit in this chair? And you know somebody. And it's always rock, paper, scissors handles everything right. So that was the end result. But it's just funny just watching them like, wait. They wait for you to say something, you know, when you don't, they're kind of like, all right, we're gonna keep talking about it then. And they figured it out.

B

Yeah, yeah, it was great. That is good. That is good.

A

Yeah.

B

So moving on, first topic for today, chapter three of the Anxious Generation, Jonathan Haidt explores the idea of anti fragility, which we'll get to, and the difference between children being in Discover Discover mode versus defend mode. So we're gonna get into that a little bit. Michelle, what is Discover Mode?

A

So I mean, discover mode is basically what you would think it is, right? You want the kids to be out in the environment outside, playing, discovering, looking around, being playful, exploratory, right. You want their nervous systems to kind of take a break, right. Cause when you're on your phone constantly, you're constantly like checking notifications, doing this, doing that, your nervous system goes haywire, right? So take a break, let your brain rest. Right?

B

Yeah. Be curious. Yeah, right. Think of it.

A

Yeah, absolutely. We want them asking questions, taking healthy risks, right. Figuring things out on their own

B

and comparing that to defend mode, which is more of the, you know, fight or flight, right? Your sympathetic nervous system. So this idea of you're in protection mode, right? Like I don't want to be hurt, so I'm not going to take a risk right now. I'm going to be, I'm going to protect myself. So being fearful or vigilant or self protective, maybe being avoidance, we, which has its use, obviously, like our bodies have developed that way for a reason, to be able to flee danger, right? There's danger present, My body switches to defend mode and I get out of trouble. But that shouldn't be default mode. It serves a purpose, but it shouldn't be. So can you think of examples that we might see? Could be at school, could be at home of kids in discover mode, where it's like clearly, oh yeah, I can see that. Or defend mode. Scared of taking risks, not wanting to put themselves out there, not wanting to try something new, Anything come to mind?

A

So something I was thinking about last year or the year before. I was teaching a unit on the Oregon Trail and westward expansion and all that. And it could be kind of dry, unrelatable to the kids, but we were learning about all these landmarks, and they actually came up with the idea, like, let's make something around the classroom that shows the Oregon Trail. And. And I loved it. I'm like, let's do it. You know? So we were looking around the classroom. We found, like, you know, all my brain bins, and they really made a whole. You know, we looked up the map, and they each took a landmark they created out of Legos, out of, you know, anything we had around the classroom. And it was so amazing. And I recorded it, and we looked at it, and then we all walked on the Oregon Trail and made our way. It was really, really cool.

B

That's awesome. Yeah, that's really cool.

A

So she could just say, did they fail? Some of them, and, you know, wasn't how they exactly wanted it. Yeah. But they had fun and they learned, and that was what was important.

B

That's very cool. That's very cool.

A

Yeah.

B

One of the things I would say, even going back to Defend Mode, which, again, I hesitate to say this is, like, totally wrong, but we always do a trip to Frost Valley upstate, the YMCA in Frost Valley. And there's high ropes courses. There's a zipline, there's a rock wall. There are all these different elements ropes courses that they do. And there's plenty of kids that are always, I want to be first in line. I want to be first in line, Right. To try something new or to even challenge themselves. But for a lot of kids, their initial reaction, some of them change, but their initial reaction, nope, I'm going to sit this one out. I'm going to sit this one out. I'm going to. Which, again, don't do something you're not comfortable with. But to go on a trip like that, where you are. You're away from your parents, the point is you're doing something new, and the default is no, you know. Now, on the flip side, some of the cool things is by the maybe the second, third day of this trip, watching their friends do it and watching some kids doing conquer their fears, a lot of kids do decide, all right, I'm going to do this one. I'm going to do that. Yeah.

A

That they eventually try.

B

Yeah. Yeah. And again, part of that is being a kid and growing up of knowing, like, oh, this looks scary. It does look scary, right? You're 15, 20ft in the air. Yeah. You're in a harness, but it doesn't feel like you're safe.

A

You know, I've done things like that. It's very, very scary.

B

Yeah, but that's. That's one of those things where it's like, oh, I'm gonna do a challenge. Right. That's like a. Like you said, like a calculated risk, taking a healthy risk.

A

Yeah.

B

Yeah. I'm 20ft in the air, but I'm in a harness. If I fall, I'm okay. But it still feels.

A

It's still scary.

B

Scary. Yeah.

A

Yeah. And just really quickly, talking about Defend Mode, I think about, like, the shame of. Or, you know, the kids getting made fun of, like, if you post something. So even my kids, like, if I'll post something and I'm friends with somebody they're friends with or that might see it. Mom, why'd you post that picture? You know, I look horrible, or, you know, look at my smile, look at my face, you know, and they're getting made fun of for a picture I posted. And, you know, it's just that shame. And I don't know, it makes them in Defend Mode, like, always worrying, you know, somebody gonna post a picture of me that's not good or that I don't like, you know?

B

Yeah, yeah. It causes that, like. Yeah. The fear. And I even think, too, it is funny because when Instagram first came out, when I first downloaded Instagram, it's like, you download Instagram to, like, take pictures and post things. And now kids don't really post anything.

A

Yeah.

B

You know, especially of themselves.

A

Especially. Yeah. Because they're afraid to get made fun of.

B

Yeah. So the core idea there. Right. Is that children, in order to develop properly, need long periods in Discover Mode. Right. We want them short periods in Defend Mode when it's appropriate, when there is a danger. But mostly in Discover Mode because he says children are antifragile. So, Michelle, have you ever heard of the Biosphere 2 experiments?

A

Well, I did read about it in the book, but I'd like before then.

B

Did you hear.

A

No, I did not hear about that.

B

In short, in the 1980s, there was an attempt by scientists to create a completely closed ecosystem. And the idea was, can we do it here on Earth so that if we go to space, if we go to Mars, if we go to. We can create the same thing there. Right. So everything is inside this bubble that they did. Everything is. You know, it. It. It controls control. It's. Everything's controlled and everything is produced itself there. You don't need Any outside.

A

Right.

B

Help. So they started it and there were many failures, but one of the biggest failures was that trees would grow pretty quickly without any resistance of rain or heat or you get the perfect amount. But they realized they would get to a size where they would just fall over. And the trees actually, because they didn't have the wind, because they didn't have periods of maybe too much rain and then not enough rain, they had no struggle. So they weren't strong enough to withstand their own weight.

A

That's interesting.

B

Which is a very, very interesting parallel when you think about kids who sometimes we treat them as fragile. Right. Something that's fragile is it can break easily. You drop it, it's going to break. Then you say something that's resilient with something, it's not going to break when you drop it. But he doesn't say kids are resilient. He says they're anti fragile. Meaning not only are they resilient, but they actually need challenges, they need to have hardships, they need to have failures in order to. To grow. Absolutely.

A

I mean, think about us like, you know, when you fail, you make a mistake you don't make.

B

That's the best way to learn.

A

Yeah.

B

Well, it's not the best way. The best way to learn, I tell kids, is watch somebody else's mistakes and failures and learn from that. But the best lessons you learn yourself. Right. From your own failures.

A

Yeah. And think about like exposure versus avoidance. Right. So if kids are constantly avoiding what they have to do for fear of failure, they'll never succeed.

B

Yeah. And I think he talks about in the book, the kids that don't have fear are the kids who have climbed the tree and fallen out.

A

Right.

B

Like those are the kids who are keep who are continually climbing the tree. You would think the kids who have gotten hurt are afraid to do it, but it's really the opposite.

A

It's the opposite.

B

It's the opposite. So don't be afraid. That's right. That's right. You know, encourage your kids, take some risks. So two main factors that cause kids to get stuck in defend mode are what the author calls safetyism as well as smartphones. So I'm going to read this quote from the book. It says we use the term safetyism to refer to a culture or a belief system in which safety has become a sacred value and the idea that safety trumps everything else, no matter how unlikely or trivial the potential danger. So it's not just fearful parenting, it's saying you're not properly weighing the risks you're saying physical safety is the highest value. So you're not willing to make a bargain of, I'm going to be a little bit of physical danger, healthy danger, obviously, you know, letting your child go to the park. Yeah. Appropriate. Because what's the return? Right. Competence, confidence, ability to conquer challenges. Right. Where if you're always insulated from any physical danger or harm, you're not going to have the experiences you need.

A

Absolutely. So let me ask you a question. So you have a new baby, right. And thinking about the world as it is today and, you know, the horrible things we see on the news and everything else, and thinking about safetyism. How do you picture yourself when your son is old enough to want to ride his bike around the block, go to the park, go to the store, you know, do things alone?

B

It is funny that, like, in theory

A

I say this, but, like, it's hard.

B

Oh, yeah. You read. You read the book.

A

Yeah.

B

As a person who does not have any kids and like, yes, yes, yes. And then you have a child and you're like, oh, okay. So now I see why people don't. It's not so easy to do this, but I think it is constantly reminding yourself of, well, what's the end goal? Like, yes, physical. You always want your kid to be safe, but when they're 18, what do I want and what do I have to do when they're 5 or when they're 8 or when they're 10 or 12, that's going to get them to that point. And sometimes that is saying, like, all right, I'm going to have to let that, like, let. Let them out of my sight to ride around the block, to go to, you know, ride their bikes with friends, you know, go to 711 to get a Slurpee right down the block. You know, things like that where it's like. But it is hard. It's one of those things where now, as a parent, thinking about my son in a few years, it's like, oh, okay, I get it. I do get the fear.

A

You do, Right. But then you also think about the flip side, like, well, what's the alternative that they're on their phones, like, seeing all this data and realizing how really dangerous it is for them to be on their phones? Who knows what they're watching, knows what they're doing.

B

Yeah. Is it any safer for them to be inside on a device all day long?

A

Absolutely not. Right?

B

Yeah.

A

Yeah. So having that knowledge is super important. And that brings us to smartphones. Right. So we obviously know that the dangers of Smartphones, besides inappropriate content.

B

Right.

A

Is that they're experience blockers. Right. So instead of being outside, they're alone in their room or they're playing, you know, with their friends on a video game. Everyone's in separate houses. You know, it's blocking them from real world experiences and challenges and struggling and problem solving, all the things that they need to be healthy adults.

B

Yeah. It's not just, what are you doing on your phone, on your tablet? What video game are you playing? You know, you could be doing something that's totally benign, totally harmless, but what are you robbing yourself of. Of experiencing with other people face to face or in the real world?

A

Yeah.

B

Yeah.

A

This reminded me of a reel that I saw, actually, that was. Was very powerful. So it was a little girl and her mom, and they're at the mall, right? And they're going down the escalator and this random guy was like, oh, good job at your gymnastics thing, Jane. I don't even know what the girl's name was. And the mom's like, what? And then they go somewhere else and another random stranger was like, oh, did you win your basketball game? To the little girl? And, you know, they're just going about their day and all these random people know everything about their lives. Right. So it was like, yeah, you do, you know, want to post. And I post things too. But, like, at what expense? Sometimes, you know, having things private and not having everybody see everything.

B

Oh, yeah.

A

Is important too. Right?

B

That is interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the main point there, children are overprotected in the real world and underprotected online.

A

Yeah.

B

And it's a problem. Or this can be a problem, because it does set kids up for digital addiction. If you're telling them that everything outside is dangerous, don't go outside. What? They have no other option.

A

Right.

B

You know, and it's. It's that balance of, like we said a minute ago, you know, I'm not gonna sway all the way to one side. I'm not gonna totally say, you know, neglect my child, never talk to them, go away, and I don't wanna see you ever. But you're also not saying, don't ever leave the house. You know, it's that balance of. That slow buildup of confidence. Yeah. That gradual release. Yep, absolutely.

A

So Nicholas Carderis, Dr. Nicholas Carderis, he's a author of Glow Kids. I don't know. I don't know you've heard about that book. But he actually came to our school and did a really awesome presentation. And I was reading an article that he wrote in the New York Post, and it was basically saying that the brain's reaction to video games and social media is the same as cocaine. Right. So they did all these brain scans and all that. It's the same. It's the same as an actual drug.

B

Yeah. And I've heard the same thing about, like, slot machines and even the way video games are made, the way that the apps on the phones are made, it's the same. They're tapping into the same things that get you addicted to gambling, get you addicted to drugs. It's that same dopamine.

A

It's crazy.

B

The dopamine hit.

A

All right, so in wrapping up, I think our time is up already. That's crazy.

B

I think it is. Oh, you were setting me up and I missed the cue. I'm supposed to say the first one. Thank you.

A

The three takeaways.

B

Yeah.

A

Oh, go ahead.

B

That's right. We're just hanging out here. Yeah. So the three key takeaways. Right. Kind of. In sum. So humans have two default modes, Discover Mode and Defend Mode. And children, in order to develop properly, need long periods of time in Discover Mode to develop competence and confidence.

A

Yeah. And children are antifragile. Right. We. They need a wide range of challenges and experiences to get stronger, like the trees.

B

And then lastly, safetyism, which is the belief that safety is the highest value. And smartphones that act as experience blockers prevent kids from having those long periods in Discover Mode that they need.

A

So here's a little quote for you to think about. A childhood spent mostly in Defend Mode produces adults who fear the world. A childhood rich in Discover Mode produces adults who can handle it. That's what we want our kids to see.

B

Here we go. There we go.

A

Yep.

B

Clip that. So our challenge, this episode that we're going to give to you to discuss, to talk about is how do we keep kids in Discover Mode? And here's some suggestions. Delay smartphone and social media access. If you're already giving your kids access, then maybe have some a little more limits on it.

A

Encourage unsupervised or lightly supervised play.

B

Like even in a school game club. Right. Where it's, of course you need an adult there, but the kids are running it themselves. Normalize mistakes and discomfort. If a kid has a problem, if a kid is bored, if you know, you have a student, or even if you have a child that is, you know, having a hard time, like, you don't. You don't have to solve it for.

A

Let them sit.

B

Especially something small.

A

Yeah. It's okay that discomfort actually makes them stronger. Teach them coping skills instead of avoidance, which is important.

B

And then lastly, reduce moral panic around everyday risks.

A

Yeah.

B

Risks are normal and they are part of life.

A

Making mistakes is okay.

B

So as you think about that, as you talk about that with your friends and family, send us an email, leave us a comment, and maybe you'll get a shout out next time. Thank you, Chris, our producer, for doing all the things that you do to make this possible.

A

Yep. Mr. Peter Burns, our audio visual, MacGyver,

B

of all things, our superintendent, Dean Mittleman, for all your support and help.

A

And Emily Eich, we love you. Thank you so much. We couldn't do this without you.

B

Thank you, everybody. We'll see you next time.

A

Bye.