Stephen Dubner

Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Ozempic. Innovation happens through rethinking what's possible. And when it comes to GLP1s ozempic pill does just that. Learn more about Ozempic Semaglutide Tablets 4 and 9 milligrams by calling 1833 OZEMPIC. Or visit ozempic.com to view the Medication Guide and ask your doctor what's possible with FDA approved Ozempic pillars. Freeconomics Radio is sponsored by Southern New Hampshire University. The best investments are the ones you make in yourself, and no one knows that better than Southern New Hampshire University. With more than 200 online degree programs, no set class times, and low online tuition, Southern New Hampshire University is built to fit your life today and set you up for success tomorrow. Education is an investment. Why not make it a smart one? Apply for free at snhu.

Narrator/Announcer

Confidence. It's listening to your gut. It's moving forward, even when the path ahead is unclear. For nearly 160 years, Pacific Life has helped people keep their promises, building confidence for generations. Whether you're confident in your financial future or just beginning to envision it, we're here to help. Ask a financial professional how Pacific Life the Power of a Promise Pacific Life Insurance Co. Omaha, Nebraska and in New York, Pacific Life Annuity, Phoenix, Arizona.

Stephen Dubner

I have a confession to make. Back in 2020, when Covid hit and the world shut down, I saw a silver lining. The death and illness and uncertainty, those were all horrible. Early on, we had a bad Covid case in my family, and things were touch and go for a while. But once we got through that, I was excited about spending every day in solitude. That's just the way I'm built. I've been a writer since I was a kid, and writing requires you to be comfortable with long hours all by yourself. So I just focused on making the best Freakonomics episodes we could, and I did all my recording from a makeshift home studio. And for a while, this isolation did make me happy. There was no obligation to go anywhere or see anyone. But the happiness faded and and I thought of something the economist Gary Becker once said. Becker had studied the economics of addiction, and when he was asked to name the most addictive thing on the planet, Becker's answer was people. I never would have thought of that, but it makes sense. We are a social animal. We need other people the way we need food and water. So when the COVID restrictions lifted, I decided to get out of my home studio and take Freakonomics Radio on the road for Some live shows. Those shows were fun, but I didn't find the connection I was looking for. When you're having a conversation on a big stage with a thousand people in the audience, the tendency is to scale up. Conversations get broader, but not deeper. There's more performance and less intimacy. But then one night in San Francisco, just before curtain time, I was looking through a big overstuffed bookshelf in the green room, and I found an old biography of the talk show host, Dick Cavett. I'd seen bits and pieces of the Dick Cavett show over the years, and these days you can find it on YouTube. Smart, funny, and just the right amount of weird. So I decided to steal the Cabot book. I finished it on the plane home, and I fell in love. Not with Dick Cabot per se, but with the idea of making some kind of a TV talk show myself, with a different kind of conversation than we have on Freakonomics Radio and a wider set of guests. And rather than filming it in a big theater, we would make it in my living room, because I was looking for connection, not spectacle. It wasn't long before this show had a name. Better In Person. If Freakonomics is about how things work, Better In Person would be about how people work. I didn't want celebrities necessarily, or people promoting their latest projects. I just wanted people who have done remarkable things and are willing to think out loud. I wanted to let the conversation be steered by curiosity, mine and theirs. We would talk, we'd eat and drink, we'd get out and play, maybe make some trouble together. And now that YouTube has become the world's TV, that's where we would put this show. So, yeah, all of that actually happened. Took us about a year and a half. Next week, Better In Person will launch on the Freakonomics YouTube channel. Trailer is already up. Go check it out and subscribe if you. And today, on this episode of Freakonomics Radio, I pay a visit to the man who accidentally inspired the whole thing.

Dick Cavett

My name is Dick Cavett, and I'm known as a talk show host.

Stephen Dubner

Dick Cavett is 89 years old, and he lives with his wife in an old mansion on a hilltop in southwestern Connecticut. I told him my plan for Better in Person.

Dick Cavett

Well, I hope you do it.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

You're just saying that, aren't you?

Dick Cavett

Yeah, Yeah. I just wanted to make your friends laugh.

Stephen Dubner

Dick Cavett was certainly better in person. I've come to think that most of us are. My conversation with Cavett starts now.

Narrator/Announcer

This is Freakonomics Radio, the pod that explores The Hidden side of Everything with your host, Stephen Dubner.

Stephen Dubner

The Dick Cabot show ran on ABC from 1968 to 1975. Later, there were other versions on other networks, but it was the ABC period that made his reputation. He spoke with musicians, athletes, artists, political figures, public intellectuals. Having attended Yale, Cavett was sometimes called an intellectual himself, which shows that people

Dick Cavett

don't know what an intellectual really looks like.

Stephen Dubner

Here's how Cavett is described in a 1972 New Yorker profile. Off camera and in repose. Cavett so remarkably resembles his on air self. Cool, self contained, poised, judging that he may be the first show business character who is always off, always himself, in public or in private. He now spends most of his time in private. His wife, Martha Rogers, earned a PhD in marketing and worked for years in consumer strategy. Their Connecticut mansion was built in 1912. It's got acres of wood paneling and

Dick Cavett

a ballroom Houdini's brother owned. It may have been other owners, but he's the known one. And Houdini came here and kids would sneak in the bushes and watch him working on his underwater escapes in the swimming pool.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

Wow.

Dick Cavett

They got kicked out a couple of times. I've heard. By the way, my wife, who is a brilliant finder of things, found this house. Apparently, nobody wanted it. It's a great place. She's. Is it corny to say the best thing that ever happened to me? It might make her blush, so you better keep it from her. It's nice when that happens. Better not to marry someone who's the worst thing that ever happened to you. As some of my friends have.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

The reason I'm here, if you don't mind me saying, is twofold. One is I've always been a fan. Simple as that.

Dick Cavett

Listen, don't be ashamed of that.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

Thank you.

Dick Cavett

It's my advice.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

I appreciate it.

Stephen Dubner

And the other reason is.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

It's a little embarrassing to say, but I'm gonna just tell you, which is that I've done a few things in my career. I've done music, but I've been a

Stephen Dubner

writer for a long time.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

Then I started making radio, and I never liked tv.

Dick Cavett

You mean as a kid, as a viewer?

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

No, no, I mean, I liked it. Making it.

Dick Cavett

Yeah. I see.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

When Freakonomics came out, I was invited to do a lot of TV as a guest, And I didn't enjoy it so much because when you don't control

Dick Cavett

it, I can understand that.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

You're just there, like a circus animal. Just show up for eight minutes and talk about this.

Dick Cavett

Yeah. You know, I see that.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

And I certainly never would have wanted to have a TV show. But then I started watching your show again, thanks to YouTube. Really? And your channel on YouTube is so well positioned.

Dick Cavett

Yeah. I don't know how much I'm on YouTube.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

Can't go on YouTube without finding dick Cabot.

Dick Cavett

Really. Let's do it now. It's weird for me to see stuff that way because often I have no memory of ever doing that. Or I think, why the hell didn't I say this? Or I hope I'm about to say, and I do. So it's a hodgepodge of emotions for me.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

That must be a good feeling when you now are thinking, I wish or hope he will say X. And you do.

Dick Cavett

And I do. That's a good feeling. The opposite is bad feeling.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

So here's the thing I really like. Yeah, you're interviewing people. Plainly you're asking questions. That's what an interview is.

Dick Cavett

I don't think of it as an interview in the sense that you interview to elicit facts. Somebody said it's a mistake to call what Cavett does interview because gratefully, for us, it's conversation.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

It feels to me like we're at the fun end of the table at a great dinner party.

Dick Cavett

I like that. Remind me of that.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

One problem is that I come from journalism, not comedy, and I'm not opposed to being funny, but I'm not professionally funny.

Dick Cavett

You don't try to be funny.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

Do I try to be funny? Doesn't everybody try to be funny?

Dick Cavett

Yeah, you're right. People hope there are people. Trying to be funny can be one of the worst things. Except murder or somebody stepping on a mine.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

How much did you care about the response to a particular show? If you thought a show was great and people didn't respond or vice versa, did you care?

Dick Cavett

That never was really an issue.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

They were all fantastic.

Dick Cavett

You're saying, well, one wasn't. But I don't want to talk about it. I'm the only person I know of who had a guest die on the show.

Stephen Dubner

Kavett is referring here to a 1971 taping with Jerome I. Rodale, a publisher and entrepreneur who championed organic food. The episode never aired, but Rodale's on set. Death became late night legend.

Dick Cavett

Are we boring you? Mr. Rodale is one of my immortal.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

Wait, you said that?

Dick Cavett

Because he did what guests often do. He'll go, oh, sorry, Dick. What? They find it funny. And sometimes it is to snore. And he snored. In reality, I realized right after having Said, are we boring you, Mr. Rodale? And I remember thinking, I wish I weren't the one in charge here. What do I do now? And what did I do?

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

You wrote that you took his pulse, you acted as if you were taking his pulse, but you didn't actually know

Dick Cavett

how to do it. I didn't know what a pulse supposed to be or even where it was for sure.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

Yeah, but he was dead.

Dick Cavett

And then I said, is there a doctor in the audience? Later, when I met Katharine Hepburn, she said, I want to know everything about the man who died on your show. And I said, why do you suppose I hesitated on the word and said, is there a doctor in the audience? With the well known phrase, is there a doctor in the house? There's a doctor in the house.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

I wondered that too. What was that about?

Dick Cavett

She said, well, you knew that. Is there a doctor in the house? With such a cliched line and often used in humorous settings, you knew that would get a laugh.

Stephen Dubner

The actress Katharine Hepburn refused interviews for most of her life, but she once came on Cavett's show for a two hour conversation. There's a nice bit of tape from before the interview when Hepburn is checking out the set and finds it lacking

Katharine Hepburn

and is, can't we have a stationary table? Can we have a table that's. Nobody answers.

Janet Flanner

Can we get business table with that?

Dick Cavett

Doesn't wobble here?

Katharine Hepburn

Sure.

Gore Vidal

Right now?

Katharine Hepburn

Yeah. Nail it down that carpet. If anybody can survive that carpet, you can. We're doing well.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

Someone once wrote that the reason you're so good at this is because you weren't insecure. The way that my mind took that is if a person is secure in themselves, you don't need to tear down other people. You can really try to draw out what makes them excited or I can identify with that. Do you think of yourself as performing when you're doing your show or mostly natural?

Dick Cavett

I guess. No, I don't think I think of it as performing. Huh. That would be odd to think. No, I just got easy to do the show.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

Were you able to be yourself?

Dick Cavett

Yeah.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

How long did it take you to get there? Because coming up as a writer and then a standup when you started hosting, did it take you a long time to feel like, I know how to do this?

Dick Cavett

It took a while because various things, like my friend Porterfield would say, you're sticking too close to your notes. Sometimes you don't seem to have heard what the other person said.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

You think he was right?

Dick Cavett

Yeah, yeah, I could see it. There was times when I really wasn't listening. And someone would say, you know, I. I just got over a very serious illness. And I would say, do you have any hobbies?

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

I mean, how would you prepare for a taping?

Dick Cavett

Well, I had four talent coordinators, a title somebody thought of for bookers. And they would get with the guest if the guest would agree to it, or they'd talk on the phone with them or something, and you'd get notes. She's in town for such and such. She's worried about not having the right clothes for an opening night. Or he's. There'll be maybe 10 things that you can talk to them about. Often I used all of them. Often I used some of them and sometimes none of them. The minute you start with some people, you know that it's going to go great, and it does, and you don't need your notes.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

How much do you just try to let your brain be present in the moment versus draw on your preparation?

Dick Cavett

That's a good question.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

I would think that it's better when you're just ziggity zag, snapping, snapping.

Janet Flanner

Yeah, yeah.

Dick Cavett

The first time I did a show, looked at the notes afterwards of three pages of maybe six things or eight each per page, and I hadn't used any of them. I thought, that is important. When it was. I could have used them and they'd have been fine, but I didn't need them for whatever lucky reason.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

So once you realize that you were good at it like that.

Dick Cavett

Yeah, that was a big thing.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

Did that change how you prepared then?

Dick Cavett

Knowing that I could do a show without them was a nice thing. People mentioned one particular show recently, by chance that some columnist, somebody sent this to me, said, if in your life you only are able to watch one full talk show, just the one episode, be sure it's Cavett's Mailer Vidal show. There's nothing like it.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

I would agree.

Dick Cavett

I'm gonna have to watch it again. I have seen it a couple years ago, and I just thought it was great. And there was that gal in the middle, Janet Flanner. The great Janet Fl.

Stephen Dubner

Janet Flanner was the legendary Paris correspondent for the New Yorker. Norman Mailer and Gore Vidal were two of America's biggest novelists at the time with egos to match. The night began with Mailer refusing to shake hands with Vidal. Mailer had recently published a provocative book on the women's liberation movement called the Prisoner of Sex, and Vidal had given it a negative review. Here is some tape from that show. You will hear Cavett first, and then Mailer, and later Janet Flanner and Gore Vidal.

Janet Flanner

You will admit that you were accused of being a chauvinist of the worst kind.

Norman Mailer

Well, I know, but that's what's wrong with women's liberation, which is. It's a new and it's a young movement.

Katharine Hepburn

Oh, my goodness sake.

Stephen Dubner

Now, let's not go back onto that.

Norman Mailer

I'd love to talk about it for two minutes every day.

Katharine Hepburn

Oh, dear, oh, dear, oh, dear. We've heard it all.

Norman Mailer

It's just nonsense. It's just ridiculous. You know, if I have anything at all, I have a complicated mind. In fact, I have a mind so complicated that Gore has said with some. Some justice that my style is getting unreadable. You know, it's the one thing in his critique that I agree with. My style's getting difficult. You know, it's hard when you have a lot in your head to write something. It's true. Gore has never encountered this problem.

Gore Vidal

What did you say?

Katharine Hepburn

I wasn't listening.

Dick Cavett

Norman, what was it?

Norman Mailer

Small mind. No matter.

Dick Cavett

No, don't be autobiographical all the time.

Katharine Hepburn

Well,

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

So how are you feeling when the two of them. I mean, it was mostly Mailer going at Vidal. Vidal gave back once. He was getting punched in the nose. What are you thinking during that?

Dick Cavett

Oh, God, I don't know. I just. I remember thinking, this is going to be good viewing. I don't think I thought during it.

Stephen Dubner

But Cavett picked a side. He, too, thought that Norman Mailer was being an ass.

Janet Flanner

Let me turn my chair and join these three. Perhaps you'd like two more chairs to contain your giant intellect.

Dick Cavett

I loved it when Mailer. What was his straight line? The equality? Just read the next question off the question sheet.

Norman Mailer

Why don't you look at your question sheet and ask a question?

Dick Cavett

And that, for whatever reason, caused me to say, why don't you fold it

Janet Flanner

five ways and put it where the moon don't shine?

Dick Cavett

This has been much quoted. Almost always wrong. People say, the sun shunt shine, which is no good at all.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

Where did that phrase come from? Do you make it up on the spot?

Dick Cavett

I don't know where I ever heard.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

When I saw it, I assumed it must have been some old saying, but I couldn't find anybody else saying it.

Dick Cavett

I can't imagine. I know it had occurred in my life before that, possibly years earlier, and it just came to the surface involuntarily. But that was a wonderful moment that I'm very grateful he caused.

Stephen Dubner

Coming up after the break, I asked Dick Cabot why he was so beloved.

Dick Cavett

It must be my loveability. Is that a good guess?

Stephen Dubner

I'm Stephen Dubner, this is Freakonomics Radio. We will be right back. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by figure. Did you know that 40% of homeowners own their home outright? If that's you, don't let your equity sit idle. Tap it with a Home Equity Line of credit Figure the number one non bank HELOC lender in the US Helps tap equity you've built in your home so you can do things like tackle a renovation or pay down debt. HELOC is a line of credit secured by your home. You can draw what you need, repay and draw again. Figure offers a 100% online application, get approved in five minutes, and funding in as few as five days. It's faster than a bank loan and cheaper than a personal loan. Check your rate today without impacting your credit@figure.com freakonomics this post is sponsored by figure.nmls.id 1717824 figure is an equal housing lender. For more information about their licensing, visit nmlsconsumeraccess.org Figures HELOC is subject to credit approval and terms apply. Freakonomics Radio is Sponsored by Southern Co. The World and its energy needs are always changing. Southern Company's commitment to meeting this demand stays the same. That's because Southern Company believes energy is more than a utility, it's what powers possibilities. So they are looking ahead and investing $80 billion in infrastructure upgrades and are committed to fueling growth in ways that benefit all customers so that reliable and affordable energy is accessible for generations to come. Go to southerncompany.com to learn more. Building the Future of Energy. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Hotels.com Hotels.com gives you access to hundreds of thousands of hotels worldwide, and when you join for free, you can save up to 20% instantly with member prices. Plus, every stay earns rewards. So when you book one trip, you're already lowering the cost of the next one. Hotels.com is simple, rewarding and designed to help you get more out of every stay. Sign up for free and book today. Hotels.com it's all in the name. Dick Cavett grew up in Nebraska, the only child of two schoolteachers. His mother died of breast cancer when she was 36 and he was 10. Her death made me feel betrayed by life, he later wrote, and embarrassed. When I read that line, I stopped. My father had died when I was 10 and I too felt embarrassment. So there is at least one thing That I have in common with Dick Cavett. His father remarried, another schoolteacher, and Dick got on with his life. He was good at many things. School for sure, but he also played music, did magic. He competed in gymnastics, where his specialty was the pommel horse.

Dick Cavett

You can't put the pommel horse aside lightly. Not only was I the state champion in the pommel horse, which is, and this is a fact, not an opinion, the hardest piece of gymnastics apparatus. I didn't pick it because it was the hardest. It was the only thing we had. We had some mats and a pommel horse. Everybody hated it, and I rather liked it and kept going with it.

Stephen Dubner

Cavett studied English and drama at Yale and then got a job at Time magazine as a copy boy. He read that the Tonight show host, Jack Parr, was unhappy with the material his writers were feeding him. So Cavett wrote some fresh jokes, snuck backstage at the Tonight show and. And gave his jokes to Parr. That is a very Cavett move. From an early age, he was good at getting backstage. Parr used some of Cavett's material and then he hired him. Once Cavett got into television, he stayed with Jack Par for a while and then Merv Griffin, Jerry Lewis and Johnny Carson. He did some standup comedy on his own. He started to develop a voice and a reputation. In 1968, ABC gave him a morning show. He moved to primetime and then late night. At its peak, the Cavett show had millions of nightly viewers and Cavett became a celebrity himself.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

If TV hadn't worked out for you, what do you think you would have done?

Dick Cavett

I have no idea what would I have done?

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

Did you have many skills?

Dick Cavett

I wouldn't have taught school, although I might have enjoyed that. It never occurred to me that television wouldn't work. Something just seemed to happen. I mean, it isn't that I didn't fear. I had no confidence that it was going to go big. Go big? When a master uses the English language, it's a thrill, isn't it? Go big.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you were. Are kind of a unicorn, good at a lot of different things. You were smart, you were funny, you were a good athlete. And I'm curious if you ever felt you needed to hide your light under

Dick Cavett

a bushel, what would that consist of?

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

Were you ever afraid of being your truest self because you thought that would make you a little less popular? He's too good at these things. Did you ever.

Dick Cavett

That was never a concern. No.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

I know that Groucho encouraged you to go the Yale, Nebraska.

Dick Cavett

Yes, he did. Groucho had sent me a letter. In it he said, I saw you on Merv the other night and I think you've hit a gold mine with the idea of a kid from Nebraska, the rustic, coming to glamour in the big city and all that stuff. Keep with that.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

Did you play it up more after that?

Dick Cavett

I don't know, but I certainly was glad to hear it.

Stephen Dubner

Cavett had first met Groucho Marx at the funeral for the playwright and humorist George Kaufman. Cavett supposedly told Groucho, I'm a big fan. To which Groucho supposedly said, if it gets any hotter in here, I could use a big fan. Cavett did take Groucho's advice to cultivate the Persona of a small town kid doing his best in the big city. Groucho became a regular on Cavett's show and they had a great rapport. You can hear it in this clip from 1969.

Gore Vidal

How you been?

Dick Cavett

Good.

Janet Flanner

I've been fine.

Gore Vidal

It's nice to see you in New York. Glad you're back on the air and the proper time too. Yeah, not at 4:00 in the morning. Whenever I saw your show last year, I was eating oatmeal. That's what they call prime time in California. That isn't all they called it either. Fine. And this show is going to be a big hit because you're on at ten o' clock at night, right? A lot of people are going to watch it.

Janet Flanner

Come on at 9 Central Time.

Gore Vidal

Well, I, I, I wouldn't go that far.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

How much did you absorb Groucho? Or was this you before Groucho?

Dick Cavett

He's big influence. Isn't that something? Imagine in the Grand Theater in Grand Island, Nebraska, seeing my first Marx Brothers movie. If anyone had said that one guy and you were gonna spend part of your life together, I would have said you're full of crap.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

You had good mentors, good rabbis, people who really loved you and wanted you to succeed.

Dick Cavett

For example.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

Oh, Jack Parr.

Dick Cavett

Oh yeah.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

Groucho, it seems to me at least.

Dick Cavett

And good point.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

I'm curious why you were so likable. Usually the incumbents want to keep the young people down. Everybody seemed to love you.

Dick Cavett

It must be my loveability. Is that a good guess? I don't know. I can't answer that.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

If you look at the categories of guests, you had a lot of writers, amazing interviews with musicians and performances and athletes.

Dick Cavett

Isn't that interesting? I didn't have any interest in rock, but Janis Joplin was such a good guest, and the fact that she came on and she was so good that other rock people said, oh, maybe Cavett could handle us. He seems like such a square, but maybe.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

Were you as square as you seemed, or was that an act?

Gore Vidal

No.

Dick Cavett

Can you come back to me with that question in a week,

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

there must have been guests that you wanted on the show that you couldn't get. Yes.

Dick Cavett

Mike Nichols almost did it. I asked him a second time, and he said, I'm on my way to London for a couple weeks, but when I come back, maybe I'll be in the mood to share and share. But it never happened. I think it's my fault. I didn't follow it up. I always got along with Sinatra whenever we were thrown together at something, and I think, again, I didn't press hard enough. I think we would have had such fun.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

Could you always make the show you wanted to make, or did you have the suits telling you some things?

Dick Cavett

I could, but what happened? The very first show I had Gore Vidal, Muhammad Ali and somebody else taped it for a week later when it was going to be debut. And I learned in that week that they wanted me to tape a different first show. And I thought, well, that show seemed pretty good. Everybody liked it. And I said, well, I don't see any reason to change it. What's wrong with it? And they said, well, nobody gives a damn what Muhammad Ali and Gore Vidal think about Vietnam.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

Wow.

Dick Cavett

I said, nobody. I bet I could come up with two or three people at least who would be interested. What are you talking about?

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

Did they mean that nobody cared or they mean that that's something we want to stay away from?

Dick Cavett

They were afraid of the subject chicken shit, afraid of anything having to do with the disastrous war. When are you going to stop eating chicken? I said to a guy in a nice suit.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

So what happened?

Dick Cavett

I said, I don't agree to that. I said, well, you're gonna have to do it. So they ran a different show because I had already done five before the first one, and then somewhere semi buried by being in the second week they ran that one. People sent me critics comments from around saying, cavett really came to life on this show. This is what the show ought to be. And I made sure that all the assholes on ABC saw that.

Stephen Dubner

Not many episodes survive from that 1968 season. And we couldn't track down the one that Cavett was talking about with Muhammad Ali. But Cavett did become friendly with Ali, and he was a guest on Cavett 14 times. Here is Ali in 1970, talking to Cavett about the possibility of going to jail for draft evasion.

Muhammad Ali

White America right now spending $30 million a day in Asia. Black and white boys are dying unjustly for nothing, just to free somebody else. So why should I worry about going to little old jail to free my poor people? Who's been catching hell here for four?

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

If you were making your show now, with the political moment that we're in, what would you do?

Dick Cavett

I didn't know it. I never think of that now. The political stuff was often very problematical. Problematic was a problem. Shaved that down.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

Sounds like you didn't love the network. People there are. Some are all right, he said unenthusiastically.

Dick Cavett

They're qualified to do what they feel they're qualified to do, which is tell you how to do the show.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

That makes me wonder, if one were going to start a show today, that you'd want to start a show without having any suits around. Fund it yourself. Do it yourself. Would you endorse that?

Dick Cavett

Definitely. Yeah. You know what you're doing, and they don't. And they don't know why you. It works when it works and when it doesn't, they don't have any idea. They don't know anything about what it feels like to be sitting there doing it. And their advice is without worth. And not only that, worthless.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

Say what you really mean. But my sense is that whether it's tv, music, publishing, it seems that the executives are very good at looking at what's already succeeded and saying, hey, let's do something like that, as opposed to, let's try something new and interesting. Now, you were pretty new and interesting,

Dick Cavett

they say, or you're thinking, why don't you? As good as so and so. Violence can happen. Almost.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

So what's it feel like when a given network says, dick, we thank you for your service, but we're putting on, you know, a dog show in your slot.

Dick Cavett

Well, that's happened. Yeah. How many times have I been canceled

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

for the list of networks you've worked for is not short.

Dick Cavett

I'm always astonished. A few years ago when I for the first time saw somebody write, he did this, and then he did it there. And then he was on cnbc. Is that true? It startled me.

Stephen Dubner

Over time, Cavett did some version of the Dick Cavett show for ABC, CBS, PBS, USA, ABC again, CNBC, and TCM. Roughly 2000 hours of his work are archived at the Library of Congress. And again, there is a lot on YouTube. When you watch, you can feel not only how good Cavett could be at his best. You could also feel how central he was to the cultural conversation at the time. That brought an enormous amount of pressure and ultimately a deep depression.

Dick Cavett

It's the worst agony designed for man.

Stephen Dubner

We'll hear about that after the break. I am Stephen Dubner and this is Freakonomics Radio with Dick Cavan. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by talkaboutpd.com let's talk about Peyronie's disease, or PD. It's not widely talked about and some men may feel reluctant to bring it up, but it's more common than you would think. PD can happen when scar tissue builds up under the skin of the penis, causing a curve with a bump during an erection that for some men may lead to pain during intimacy and impact mental health. A trusted urology specialist can help diagnose PD and walk you through your options, including non surgical treatment. Visit talkaboutpd.com.

Commercial Voice

You're more than just one thing. You're the boss. Hey, Google, what time is my meeting with Tim today? The athlete that class wrecks me. The ringleader. And we're good. And always their mom. Everyone in the all new Mazda CX5 more to move every side of you. Learn more@mazdausa.com Google is a trademark of Google LLC. Sequences shortened and simulated.

Stephen Dubner

I asked Dick Cavett what it felt like when he was at the top of his game. But then every night had to do it again.

Dick Cavett

I just remember thinking, you've got to put last night's show away forever. You already should be home looking at your notes about tomorrow and thinking, does this go on forever?

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

Did you want it to go on forever?

Dick Cavett

I'm not sure. I just thought, I'm in this. People like it, it's going okay. But can you do this very long without mental damage?

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

Did it damage you mentally in the long run?

Dick Cavett

I don't know. That's for you to say.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

It sounded like later on you had some real depressive periods, right?

Dick Cavett

Oh, yeah. I'm an expert on depression. I was just reading some stuff I wrote about it seems like every few, let's say weeks, if not days, somebody thanks me for having helped them by talking in the press and in person or on the air even about depression and a good thing that comes from it. But I hadn't expected it was people saying, you saved my father's life. And it jolted me further, say, when he heard you talking about depression and he realized that if Dick Cavett can get this, maybe I shouldn't be so ashamed. It's logical, though. I mean, it's understandable, isn't it? I might have had that feeling if I weren't known and somebody known, talked about. I would probably thought, oh, God, thank God they have it too. But that it prevented suicides in some cases. I just found some old letters telling me that.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

How much did you share it at the time? You talk about it in interviews.

Dick Cavett

First was in a magazine that. I never had any particular desire to talk about it publicly, but it came up and it did a lot of good. I don't know. That's odd, isn't it, that if a celebrity has something bad, people who also have it are at least comforted in some way.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

If you don't mind me asking, what did it feel like for you when you were in the middle of a depressive period?

Dick Cavett

It's the worst agony designed for man. There's nothing like it. Being sad is nothing like it. Having your heart broken for romance or anything. It's just everything is dark and heavy and hurts. And there's no feeling you're ever, ever, ever going to get out of it. Because anything that has hit you that deeply, there's no way you're ever going to escape it. Stephen Fry, I had him on and we both came up with the notion that whatever you do, don't ever say to somebody in depression, what do you have to be depressed about? I used to get that, what are you talking about? You're on television, you've made money, you're popular. What in hell have you got to be depressed about? And we agreed that that's like saying, what have you got to have asthma about? Or tuberculosis?

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

So how did you deal with it?

Dick Cavett

Waited until the curtain goes up again. Oh, I also had ect, and that was a public service without my knowing it, because people who had been afraid of it, some prominent writer, one of our big writer's wives, asked me to call him and tell him that I had had ect.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

It's electric shock therapy.

Dick Cavett

He was desperate. Who was it?

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

Styron, maybe.

Dick Cavett

I believe you're right. And if it wasn't in his case, but in another one just like it, I later said, how did it go for him? He said, it failed completely. I said, that's possible because he was shit face drunk every time he went to the sessions.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

What was it like for you to be in a depressive period and doing your show where you're an entertainer real hard?

Dick Cavett

I was in the bedroom of Mr. Marlon Brando. Now it's not going to be a Story that that would seem to suggest. But I remember he was in bed at his house, and we talked about depression. And I said, I did a show once that shocked me. So because it was just the two minor guests, Laurence Olivier and his wife, Joan Flowright, the wonderful actress, I had to do it in their hotel room for some reason. And I was getting ready in another room in the hotel, and I thought, two doors down, Lawrence Olivier, and I don't give a shit. I just want to go home and get into bed. How am I going to do this show? Did the show. It was difficult. It was with Brando, then later that I said, you know, I just couldn't bring myself to watch that show, because in doing it, I thought, these people know that I'm nuts, that I'm struggling, that I don't know what. And in fact, they did not.

Stephen Dubner

Here's a clip from that episode with Lawrence Olivier and Joan Plowright.

Janet Flanner

By the way, it's always difficult to work with titles. So I would like the people at home to know that I have been asked and instructed to say Larry and Joan.

Katharine Hepburn

Yes, please.

Janet Flanner

Is that. Will you verify that?

Dick Cavett

Yes. Thank you, Dick.

Janet Flanner

Yes, yes, Dick is fine, sir. Lawrence. Larry, I gather that we owe it to you to have brought your wife back to the stage, to have insisted that she go back on. Is that true? How do you know when it's time?

Dick Cavett

I. I, Well, I thought it was, well, time she came back to New York. And I thought this was a wonderful part for her. And she's, I think, extremely beautiful in the park.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

Did you ever watch that show?

Dick Cavett

No, I. Well, I wouldn't watch it. And I said to Brown, I can't ever bring myself to watch that show. I really know what it will look like. What I'll see, I'll see. What they unfortunately saw was struggling and taking pauses that are infinite. And Brando said, do me a favor, watch it. And I said, okay, I will. And so later I called Marlon and I said, I saw that show. I was fine. Why? And he said, don't you know? And I said, no. And he said, well, every performer has to have what I call automatic pilot. You were sitting there doing what you do, and you were able to do it, maybe acting it, but whatever it was, automatic pilot will take over for you. And it did. In that case, how about these days,

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

the last 10, 20 years? How's your.

Dick Cavett

I never had it. After the time I had ECT for it, I got it again, got another dose of act for it, and it went like, just like that.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

So you think that really fixed it

Dick Cavett

or absolutely cured it?

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

No question in your mind that that was what.

Dick Cavett

No, that's what did it. However it works, you lie there and they attach something to you and you don't feel anything. My late wife was there and said, when you came out of that room, you were a different person. So pass that on to somebody if they're locked in depression.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

When you would look back at a show that went where you were really good versus a show where you didn't feel you were as good, what were the other factors that you think contributed?

Dick Cavett

I wish I knew. I really don't know.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

Did you ever try to connect your performance to what you ate or whether you had sex, you know, the night

Dick Cavett

before or during the show? Those were the best. No, I just don't know.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

So that's just who you are. You're just a cool character.

Dick Cavett

Hope that what you do and say isn't appalling and keep going. But I never had any technique ready for when that happened. Would have been good if I had.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

So when I come here for advice on how to cave, sounds like it's impossible because you just are who you are. Sounds like there wasn't a lot of strategy.

Dick Cavett

Not strategy, no.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

Is there anything that we haven't talked about that you'd like to.

Dick Cavett

Hmm. The Peloponnesian War. I was so hoping that would come up.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

I thank you so much. I really. I just. I admire your work. I admire you as a human, and I'm really grateful.

Dick Cavett

I love doing this with you. I don't know what it is. You've got something great.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

That's good of you to say.

Stephen Dubner

As you can hear, Dick Cavett is a one of one. I'm not Cavett, and on my new show, I'm not going to try to be him, but I did learn from him. Don't lean too hard on your prep. Make it a conversation, a collaboration, not just an interview. And most of all, in order to make the show you want, you might want to make it yourself. No suits, no focus groups, no bs. So that's what we did. Our guests on Better In Person include architects, writers, CEOs, musicians, comedians, athletes, and the first season launches July 14 on the Freakonomics YouTube channel. The trailer is already up if you want to check it out. I hope you like the show, and I hope you will spread the word better in person on the Freakonomics YouTube channel. I'd like to thank Dick Cavett for inviting us into his home and Martha Rogers for making it happen. This interview took place last year when we started filming Better in Person in my apartment in New York. We hung a portrait of Cavett on the wall for inspiration. I think you can spot it in some episodes. Let us know if you do. Our email is radioreconomics.com and by the way, Freakonomics Radio is not going anywhere. Coming up soon, we've got episodes on prediction markets, on putting data centers in space, and next week, an episode about a false positive in medicine that costs billions of dollars and is easy to fix. Until then, take care of yourself. And if you can, someone else too. Freakonomics Radio is produced by Renbud Radio. You can find our entire archive on any podcast app. It's also@freakonomics.com where we publish transcripts and show notes. This episode was produced by Augusta Chapman with field recording in Connecticut by Nick Nevis. It was edited by Ellen Frankman and mixed by Jake Loomis with help from Eleanor Osborne. Archival material is from Chris Robertson and global image. Works copyright is with Daphne Productions. Thanks also to Leo Adam Biga at the Flatwater Free Press for research help. The Freeconomics Radio Network staff also includes Dalvin Abawagi, Elsa Hernandez, Gabriel Roth, Hilaria Montenacort, Jeremy Johnston, Mandy Gorenst, Pete Madden and Teo Jacobs. Our theme song is Mr. Fortune by the Hitchhikers and our composer is Luis Guerra. As always, thanks for listening.

Dick Cavett

Yeah, why don't you?

Narrator/Announcer

Dick.

Interviewer (likely Stephen Dubner in conversation)

What did you have for breakfast this morning?

Dick Cavett

It's none of your business. I eat when I eat. I don't tell anybody. Are you checking this now? I'm checking your level. You're doing serious business. Okay, I'll stop being an idiot.

Narrator/Announcer

The Freakonomics Radio Network the hidden side of everything.

Commercial Voice

Ondeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team or bridging cash flow gaps, Ondeck's loans up to $400,000, help make it happen fast. Rated A by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five star Trustpilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes@ondeck.com depending on certain loan attributes. Your business loan may be issued by Ondeck or Celtic Bank. Ondeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans, an amount subject to lender approval.