Tonya Mosley

This is FRESH air. I'm Tonya Mosley and my guests today are writers and performers Rashida Jones and Will McCormick. They dated Forstedt in their 20s. It didn't work out, but what they found instead was one of the longest running creative partnerships in Hollywood. Their first screenplay together, Celeste and Jessie Forever from 2012, followed two people who couldn't stay married but also couldn't imagine life without each other. It's the kind of complicated relationship stories that they've returned to throughout their careers. Their latest screenplay is the Invite, directed by Olivia Wilde, who also stars alongside Seth Rogen, Penelope Cruz and Edward Norton. The entire film unfolds in a single San Francisco apartment. Two couples gather for dinner, and as the evening unfolds, the stories they've been telling about their relationships and themselves fall apart. It was Inspired by the 2020 Spanish film The People Upstairs by Cesc Gay. In this scene, the couple who live upstairs, played by Cruz and Norton, have just arrived at their host's apartment, played by Wilde and Rogen.

Will McCormack

It took you a while to come to the door and it sounded like you were arguing.

Rashida Jones

No filter.

Edward Norton / Olivia Wilde / Seth Rogen / Penelope Cruz (actors in clips)

No.

Will McCormack

I just want to be honest. We were at the door before we rang and we could hear you were fighting.

Rashida Jones

Oh, we were talk.

Edward Norton / Olivia Wilde / Seth Rogen / Penelope Cruz (actors in clips)

We were.

Will McCormack

We were fighting. We were fighting.

Edward Norton / Olivia Wilde / Seth Rogen / Penelope Cruz (actors in clips)

Yeah.

Will McCormack

Bit of a contentious environment in here, so I understand if that's repellent to you.

Narrator / Advertisement Voice

No hard feelings. You know what I mean?

Will McCormack

Completely understand. You know, we love a contentious environment. We love it.

Narrator / Advertisement Voice

Wow.

Edward Norton / Olivia Wilde / Seth Rogen / Penelope Cruz (actors in clips)

Really?

Will McCormack

It's fine. You hit the jackpot then, my friend.

Tonya Mosley

As the evening goes on, awkward small talk turns into an unexpected invitation. Rashida Jones is an actor, writer, producer and director. She won a Grammy for co directing the documentary Quincy, about her father, Quincy Jones, and recently earned an Emmy nomination for her performance in black mirror. Will McCormick is an Academy Award winning writer, director and actor. He won the Oscar for the animated short if Anything Happens I Love youe. Will McCormick is with me in our Los Angeles studio and Rashida Jones joins us from London. Welcome both of you to FRESH air.

Rashida Jones

Thank you.

Will McCormack

Thank you so much, Tanya. It's so great to be here with you.

Tonya Mosley

All right, let's start with this first scene that I just played because there is a rule that we all live by and nobody ever says out loud, if you hear a couple fighting through a door, you pretend you didn't hear it. And this movie actually opens with that rule being broken. Take us inside of the writer's room. When you decided that these four will start with that rule being broken, well,

Rashida Jones

it's kind of the beauty of this match of these two very different duos where you have a couple that is boiling over by the time their neighbors arrive, and then you have this couple who has decided to kind of take the honesty of life and turn it inwards into their own kind of fantasy and excitement. So, you know, it's his theme stated, they're coming in. They're going to perhaps bring a wrecking ball to this already fragile relationship right from the start.

Tonya Mosley

Yeah, Will.

Will McCormack

Yeah, I think Hawk sets the tone right from the jump. You know, tonight we're gonna sing it like we feel it. And I think that there's something really refreshing about that to Joe as well. Like, it does make him uncomfort, but I think that it's so unvarnished and it's so raw that it's actually intriguing. And this is a night where people will have to reveal some hard truths. And Edward gets the party started right away.

Tonya Mosley

This, as I mentioned earlier, is inspired by this Spanish film that was under a different name. And, Will, you actually came up with this idea of the invite being the title of the movie, and it has double, almost triple meaning.

Will McCormack

Yeah, it felt like it worked in a lot of ways. It also just felt like classic. It felt sort of iconic, like the Graduate. I just like the sound of it.

Tonya Mosley

There's something horror like about it too.

Rashida Jones

We talked about that a lot, which I think plays in well now with the kind of tone and the propulsion of the movie. But, yeah, Will is an expert title creator.

Will McCormack

Just to say it's really the only thing I excel at is titles, but it is. There are several different invites over the course of the evening, and those are fun to peel back where you think, oh, my God, there's another invite. I didn't see that coming.

Tonya Mosley

I want to play another clip from this film. And in this scene, they have moved past that explosive entrance, but the evening is still getting started. Hawk, who is played by Edward Norton, and his partner Pena, who is played by Penelope Cruz. They're admiring the apartment, and Hawke is complimenting the decor. He's walking around the living room, and it feels like harmless small talk. And then it turns into something else. We start to see beneath the surface of Angela and Joe's marriage, played by Olivia Wilde and Seth Rogen. Let's listen.

Will McCormack

You've really got some beautiful pieces. It's all Angela.

Rashida Jones

Well, I know what I like, but it's actually not all expensive. Some of it is very expensive.

Narrator / Advertisement Voice

Some of it.

Tonya Mosley

Most of it's not.

Narrator / Advertisement Voice

Some of it is, though.

Tonya Mosley

Yeah.

Narrator / Advertisement Voice

Not all.

Edward Norton / Olivia Wilde / Seth Rogen / Penelope Cruz (actors in clips)

Not everything.

Rashida Jones

Some of it, but not everything.

Will McCormack

I guess what I meant to say is you can tell that it's been done with a lot of care. And you have a really great eye.

Rashida Jones

That's true. I can feel it.

Narrator / Advertisement Voice

I feel.

Rashida Jones

You put so much love. I did that.

Edward Norton / Olivia Wilde / Seth Rogen / Penelope Cruz (actors in clips)

Thank you. Yeah.

Rashida Jones

I love it. I do love it.

Tonya Mosley

I really care.

Edward Norton / Olivia Wilde / Seth Rogen / Penelope Cruz (actors in clips)

I do.

Rashida Jones

Thank you for saying that.

Tonya Mosley

See it. I care.

Rashida Jones

I do care a lot.

Will McCormack

I'm so sorry. I'm getting emotional. I don't know why, but I. Thank you.

Edward Norton / Olivia Wilde / Seth Rogen / Penelope Cruz (actors in clips)

Thank you for saying that.

Narrator / Advertisement Voice

Yeah, it has.

Will McCormack

You've got great energy. Wow, look at that.

Edward Norton / Olivia Wilde / Seth Rogen / Penelope Cruz (actors in clips)

Energy is what I was going for.

Rashida Jones

That's what I wanted.

Narrator / Advertisement Voice

Energy's great.

Will McCormack

We talked a lot about how to capture energy, as though that was a real thing we could do.

Tonya Mosley

Well, that was a scene from the Invite written by my guests today, Rashida Jones and Will McCormack. And Seth's character, it's interesting, his responses, his quips. He is a musician whose band had one hit years ago, and he's kind of still carrying this around. And what struck me is that it's such an ordinary kind of disappointment. Their lives actually look really great, you know, and from the outside, but there's this private grief over the person that they thought they'd become.

Will McCormack

Yeah. And I think Joe is defensive about this conversation about energy because he's uncomfortable, because his energy is completely stuck. Yeah. His energy is for sure whack, but it's completely stuck. Right. He's inert. And, you know, I think that being an adult is sort of like reconciling who you are with who you want to be. And it's great to have dreams, and sometimes dreams don't come true, but that doesn't mean you can't have another. That doesn't mean life goes on. Right. Like, you don't always get that dream to come true, but you can pursue another, and he's just stuck, and it just becomes toxic.

Rashida Jones

I love what you said, Tonya, about private grief, because that is. It's like this night is about exposing this very private grief that's like they haven't processed the pain, the death of their old selves, both with each other and for themselves. And, like, they're forced to do it in this one fateful night.

Tonya Mosley

Are these the kind of conversations that you all are having as you're building out these characters and actually writing them? Take us to this writing room where you're kind of delving into these deeper things.

Rashida Jones

It's literally all we talk about, whether we're writing or not, it's all we talk about. So selfishly, it's great that we can channel the thing we're most interested in, which is, like, relationships. Living with other people, being parents, losing parents, being alive, getting older, being middle age, looking down, straight down the barrel of the back half of life. All these things we got to bring to this script.

Tonya Mosley

Relationship expert Esther Perel consulted on this film. Is there a particular note or assessment that she gave you that's your favorite, that sort of stuck with you or deepened these characters?

Rashida Jones

So many. I mean, I think the truest one for the theme of our movie is this idea that, like, when you've had such a difficult relationship that at a certain point, you have to almost acknowledge that the relationship is over, and then you can make this decision to start another relationship, maybe with each other and maybe with somebody else. Like, that, to me, is, like, the essence of her teaching and also the essence of this movie, which is, like, it's about moving on. It's about letting go of a past and really accepting your future as you are, as the other person is, as you want to be and maybe can be with that acceptance.

Tonya Mosley

All right, let's talk about this working marriage that the two of you have. And I want to start at the beginning because there is the story that you all met in the late 90s because your sister Will, felt like that you two should be together or at least go on a date. Tell me the story.

Will McCormack

Yeah. Mary. My sister, Mary McCormick, the greatest sister and actress. She was doing a film with Rasheeda, and I think she told you. Rasheeda Wright, you gotta meet my brother. You guys are gonna be soul mates.

Rashida Jones

Yeah.

Tonya Mosley

She said soulmates.

Rashida Jones

She said soulmates. She showed me some, like, some picture of you on a sports team from college.

Will McCormack

Definitely not college. It'd be high school, probably.

Rashida Jones

Okay, maybe high school. It was. You were with a bunch of people and some athletic gear, but she was like, this is your sports.

Will McCormack

Wait, were you. Were you into it?

Rashida Jones

Like, I was into it, yeah. Yeah, I was fully into it. I was newly out of a really bad relationship, but you can't even remember

Tonya Mosley

what sport it was.

Will McCormack

And you don't have to qualify it. Okay.

Rashida Jones

I was like, he's cute. He looks intense. Which is fine. I'm intense.

Will McCormack

Scorpio.

Rashida Jones

Scorpio. Full Scorpio vibes through the picture. Yeah.

Tonya Mosley

So you went on the date.

Will McCormack

We went on a couple dates. Right?

Rashida Jones

Yeah, yeah. It was pretty casual. I feel like we were with, like, a Lot of. It was a lot of people. We didn't. It wasn't like a. It was like a 90s date where we were like group dates, you know. Group dates. Yeah.

Will McCormack

But, yeah, we're. We, you know, we've known each other for so long, but we're. We're like. I mean, we're really like brother and sister who, you know, dated briefly, which is not weird, but, you know. No, we dated for a second. But I think we both knew right from the very beginning that we were connected and that we had to be in each other's lives. And it took us a minute to sit down to write, but finally we did, and I'm so glad we did.

Tonya Mosley

Well, did you understand what your sister saw? Because that's pretty profound to identify that two people are soulmates, you know?

Rashida Jones

Yeah. No, it's heavy. I mean, I think what she's right about, Will and I share a voice. So somewhere in the ethers, there's, like, the two of us have the same clip, the same rhythm, and we're so different in so many ways, but we did, like, we just kind of, like, fit, like puzzle pieces conversationally, very quickly, which is, like, you know, a wonderful thing to have with a writing partner. Like, sometimes it's good in a romantic relationship, and sometimes it's not. But for writing, it is exactly what you're looking for in a partner, which is like, we have, you know, we have a voice separately, we write separately, we write together. We're in an open relationship as writers, a very healthy, open relationship. But when we come together, like, there's a thing that happens that's like. It's like this expression becomes a sort of collective expression that's like, just us two together. Make that thing happen.

Will McCormack

Yeah. And I think we always found the same things funny and the same things humor.

Rashida Jones

That's where she was going at first, don't you think?

Will McCormack

Yeah, I think so. And I think also the same thing sort of broke our hearts, and I think that we wanted to try to say something together. You know, there were movies that appealed to us both, and there was a voice that we shared for at the beginning. There was just an easy rapport.

Tonya Mosley

Do you remember when you all first found that spark? Because really, you all developed into writers together. You weren't writers before this. You were primarily performers.

Rashida Jones

Yeah, that summer. Yeah, that summer, 2007.

Will McCormack

Yeah.

Narrator / Advertisement Voice

Yeah.

Will McCormack

I had wanted to be a writer my entire life and never quite had the courage to sit down and write. And I was always sort of judging myself. And when I Sat down to write. I was writing like other people. And often I would. When I sat down to write, I would write about wanting to be a writer. You know, I just didn't feel like I had the confidence. And it was until I met Rashida that I could really hear the sound of my own voice. And, you know, she gave me the courage and the confidence to actually become a professional screenwriter, which is what I always wanted to be. When I was younger, I was an actor, and it. It came easily to me. And that's not to say it was any good, but I just had a lot of emotion and it came easily to me. And I got a couple jobs and. And that was my entrance into the business. But I had always sort of wanted to write. And it wasn't until, you know, I sat down with Rashida that I felt like, oh, this could actually happen.

Tonya Mosley

Your first film is Celeste and Jessie Forever 2012. And Rashida, you starred opposite Andy Samberg and Will, you played skillz with a Z at the end, a weed dealer with the wisdom. And it's about a couple whose marriage is over, but the friendship won't die. And I'm curious, once you had to speak words you'd written yourselves, did you discover things that you didn't hear on the page? Because that's an interesting thing, to write something and then to see it turn into something with actors. But then you all being the actors who had to say the words, what was that experience like?

Rashida Jones

Well, we. We act while we're writing. Like, that's how we. That's our discovery process of dialogue. Because we're lucky. We. We both started as. As actors and, you know, can do a good job with that. So. So often we act out the scenes, and if it's not working, it doesn't feel right, especially if it's something we're going to say on screen. That's easy to fix, you know.

Will McCormack

Yeah, we get it aloud pretty quickly, and that's been helpful. And, you know, having been an actor prior to being a writer, I think we both read thousands of screenplays, and sometimes you feel like, oh, my gosh, has anyone ever said this out loud? So, you know, being actors, we get it out loud as soon as possible.

Tonya Mosley

I actually want to play a clip from Celeste and Jesse Forever, and I wanted to choose one with both of you in it. But will the two of you all spend most of your time getting high together? It's something you gotta watch, you know, from the movie and not listen to. So in this scene, Celeste and Jesse are still trying to figure out whether their marriage is really over. And Jesse has begun dating someone else who is now pregnant. And this big fight that they have that we're about to hear, it happens after Jesse has come to see Celeste the night before, after they've broken up, and they're talking about giving their relationship another try. And she asks him a simple question. Let's listen.

Rashida Jones

Why'd you come over last night?

Will McCormack

I don't know.

Rashida Jones

No, I think you do know.

Will McCormack

Look, it was a mistake, okay? I shouldn't have come.

Rashida Jones

You're a coward.

Will McCormack

I'm having a baby. I need to figure out a way to make it work with Veronica, okay? I'm trying to change.

Rashida Jones

Why did you change for me?

Will McCormack

I don't think you really wanted me to.

Rashida Jones

Wow.

Edward Norton / Olivia Wilde / Seth Rogen / Penelope Cruz (actors in clips)

Wow.

Rashida Jones

All I did was wait for you to grow up. I rooted for you. I paid for everything. I did everything for you.

Will McCormack

Yeah, and I was never your equal. And you know what? I think you preferred it that way, right?

Rashida Jones

Ray, I know that my success was never okay for you.

Will McCormack

What do you want?

Rashida Jones

I want you to admit that you're wrong.

Will McCormack

Wrong about what? What did you expect me to do? Sit around and wait for you to meet someone first? Is that how you saw it happening? Look, I didn't expect to meet someone so fast, but I did. And now I have a real chance of being happy. I don't want to blow that.

Rashida Jones

Well, you know what, Jesse? You definitely will blow it.

Edward Norton / Olivia Wilde / Seth Rogen / Penelope Cruz (actors in clips)

Wow.

Will McCormack

You know, I feel sorry for you. You might actually be alone your whole life.

Rashida Jones

Don't ever call me.

Will McCormack

Yeah, don't worry about it.

Tonya Mosley

That was a clip from Celeste and Jesse Forever.

Will McCormack

Oh, my goodness. What was going on?

Rashida Jones

We definitely know how to zing them, huh, Jigs?

Will McCormack

Wow, man. Going for the jug.

Tonya Mosley

Well, you said you all were just recently talking about this scene?

Will McCormack

Yeah. Cause we're writing another Brent breakup scene. I got emotional listening to that. Rashida, you were so. You and Andy were so incredible. I remember I could hear the snot coming down your face in that clip, and it's just so raw. It was just such a raw performance. I remember writing that scene with you on your couch. And that fight really did just come as, like, a column of thought. It was like a song came out, and we wrote it, and it all. It was like one take, but, God, it's really hard. The timing of that relationship with Celeste and Jesse is pretty heartbreaking. And, you know, the movie sort of posits like, do you want to be right or do you want to be happy? And they're in that fight that every couple has where they're saying the really hard things that they've never said before. And it's, oof. Man, Rashida, you are great in that scene.

Rashida Jones

I almost fainted while filming that. I remember that's the closest I've ever come to fainting. Yeah. Cause I was just, like, panting. I was so emotional. I had to take like a break and sit down for a second. So it felt very real to me. I guess that's what acting is. But yeah, you know, it's funny actually listening to that. It also feels very much Will like the things you do in your 30s and this, you know. Cause this movie was really about that first big heartache when you are with somebody and you kind of see your whole life together as adults because, you know, like, there's that move from like, oh, dating, we're having fun and we're young to like, okay, I'm gonna commit to being with this person forever. I'm gonna look very deep into the future and see myself with this person, which is a big step in one's life. And these kind of giant declarations like, you're gonna be alone forever. You're never gonna find anybody. You didn't change for me. You're not gonna be happy. You're gonna blow it. Wow. Like, those things are so meaningful when you're in your, like, early 30s and you're just trying to figure out who you are and you're trying to just stay where you are and, like, be committed to the thing that you've decided to be a part of.

Tonya Mosley

My guests today are Rashida Jones and Will McCormack, the writing team behind the new film the Invite. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Tonya Moseley, and this is FRESH air.

Edward Norton / Olivia Wilde / Seth Rogen / Penelope Cruz (actors in clips)

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Tonya Mosley

this is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Moseley, and my guests today are writers and performers Rashida Jones and Will McCormick. They've been creative writing partners for more than two decades, a partnership that began with a failed date and turned into the screenplays for Celeste and Jessie Forever. And now the Invite. Directed by Olivia Wilde and starring Wilde, Seth Rogen, Penelope Cruise and Edward Norton, it's a comedy about two couples and one dinner party that unravels everything. Jones is also an actor, producer and director. She won a Grammy for co directing Quincy About Her Father, Quincy Jones, and was nominated for for her performance in Black Mirror. McCormack won an Academy Award for his animated short film if Anything Happens, I Love youe. When we left off, we were talking about how Will and Rasheeda are drawn to writing about heartbreak and loss. As writers, I notice that you all gravitate towards I don't know if I call it an emotional traffic jam or that moment, that moment of clarity. It's the hard moment. It's the part that we all know it's inevitable that we experience. But why do you want to live there as writers? Like, it almost feels like that's the thing you always are going towards.

Edward Norton / Olivia Wilde / Seth Rogen / Penelope Cruz (actors in clips)

Always.

Rashida Jones

We are always there, aren't we?

Will McCormack

Yeah. I don't mean to sound morbid and I don't mean it that way, but life is really just a series of losses. It's one loss and one heartbreak after another. You know, when you're little, summer ends and you don't want it to end and then you get your heart broken and then you have kids and they're going to break your heart and then your parents die and then you start to lose bone density. And then you start it's like but, but I say that because I really believe it, that those are the gifts, Right, of being human because it's in those moments where we feel the most vulnerable, the most alive. Those moments can actually be the funniest, because they're so raw. And it's when we feel connected, right? Like, heartbreak is the thing that binds us. Like, no matter who you are or no matter where you are or no matter how old you are, like, you're gonna go through heartache, and when you do, you feel less alone, you feel more connected, because that is the thing. It's like the great connector. It's it. And, you know, for better or for worse, and for the most part, in my work and in our work together, I've been able to, like, dig into those moments. And because I find it hard for me personally, to live life without stories that help me get through those moments, I find it actually impossible. Like, I need music, I need poetry, I need films to help me get through those moments because they're really, really hard. And to be able to dig into some of those moments with Rasheeda has just been such a gift. And, you know, I don't take that for granted, to be able to do that for a living.

Rashida Jones

I also think that we will. And I like the dissonance of the inevitability of loss and heartbreak and letting go, butting up against the need, like the survival skill of waking up every morning and believing in the best of people and believing that things are going to be okay and believing that your dreams can come true, that this life that you want to build can come true, and then being crushed by realities and circumstance and random things and then the things that are just built into being alive, like losing people and your kids, letting go of your kids from the minute they're born. There's something so interesting to us about this inherent dissonance of being alive. And there's something really funny about it for us. And I think, like, that's the thing that does kind of make us work soulmates, is that we are never above a laugh. There's nothing that's grave enough for us not to laugh about, because that's how we release. That's how we process. Our pain is like, we laugh. We laugh through death and sickness and. And sadness. And, like, I believe that that's, like. That is the medicine. That's the thing that brings us together. We have to do that.

Tonya Mosley

Well, when did you realize that living in that space and the uncomfortable space, the inevitable grief and pain that we feel is where you. Where you like to be, where you want to explore?

Will McCormack

You know, it's something that I've been able to trace through, you know, the projects that I've worked on. But, you know, that Space of heartbreak is a place that I always go back to and a place that I'm always trying to examine and that I'm always trying to wrestle with because, you know, creatively it feels like the most interesting to me. Like the thing that I'm most scared of, which is getting my heart broken, which happens over and over and over again just as a human being, inexorably is the thing that I want to

Tonya Mosley

write about, but it's also the thing most people want to avoid, which is why I'm interested in why you want to. You keep returning there. And I say that because, I mean, you also. You made this beautiful 12 minute animated film called if Anything Happens, I Love youe. It won an Academy Award. Congratulations. And you decided you wanted to write about this along with your writing partner after you became a father. It's about a school shooting. It's the thing that parents, most parents don't even want to think of. Well, turn off the television. If something comes on about an event happening in real life, you know.

Will McCormack

Yeah. My friend Michael Govey and I made if Anything Happens, I Love youe. And you know, school shootings have. They're just had become their quotidian and they're just part of everyday life. And I just was not okay with that, you know, and my wife was pregnant with our first son, Sunny, and I really wanted to try to write about something that I was terrified of. You know, it's. And when she was pregnant with Sunny, it all just became a lot realer. Like it was. It's unfathomable to me that you could send your child to school, which should be a place of safety and learning and peace and. And have them not come home. Like, it just didn't. I couldn't do the math on that. How does that, how does that happen and how does that happen so frequently? But I wanted to dive into that because I thought, this is what I'm terrified of and I have to face it. And the truth is, you know, we took that movie all over town and everyone said, oh, it's beautiful. It's just really sad. And no one's gonna want to watch that because it's so sad. And of course, they were wrong.

Tonya Mosley

Millions of people on Netflix have seen it.

Will McCormack

Millions. It became a worldwide phenomenon. And because people do actually want to feel those feelings, it is cathartic. And kids were getting shot in schools and no one's doing anything. So it was just a really great moment of just believing in a story that you feel like you have to tell and telling it.

Tonya Mosley

Take me to the building of the idea. You went out and talked with real people.

Will McCormack

Yeah. You know, you don't want to get that movie wrong because it's so sensitive and so nuanced and so fragile that we did talk to a lot of parents who have lost kids to gun violence. And we partner with everytime for gun safety. And the script is only 12 pages long. And it took us a year to write because we wanted to be super scrupulous and thorough and fastidious and thoughtful about how this story was portrayed.

Tonya Mosley

Rashida, before we started taping, Will and I were talking about this as it relates to anticipatory grief. Because, I mean, to me, this is what it also sounds like. Like, often, Will, you're making yourself feel the thing because you anticipate that at some point you're going to feel it, you know? And I'm curious for you, Rashida, is this a feeling that you also are moving towards? Do you see it in that way as well?

Rashida Jones

Definitely. I've actually just today I was meditating on this Rilke quote, be ahead of all parting. And I think it does feel like our jobs, whether or not we really want to admit it, whether or not we want to face it, whether or not we want to turn off the tv, there's an inevitability around loss. And I'm not saying that to be grim. I'm saying that because it feels like as somebody who has lost both my parents and, you know, will continue to lose people, and one day it'll be me, it feels like there's a great opportunity to prepare for that and to find joy within that and not to just fear it and wish it away, because that's not gonna do anything. And I think, you know, when I made the documentary about my dad while we were filming, you know, we filmed. I filmed for six years, and this the second to last year of filming, he went into a diabetic coma and we stopped filming. And luckily, my brother filmed a little bit in the hospital because we were gonna kind of show him what he had been through if and when he came out. And we were so lucky. He did come out at 82 and, you know, decided to stop drinking on his own because he's that kind of. He was that kind of beast. But he, you know, having that moment where he was that close to death and then deciding to put that in the film and show him overcoming that, I think was my way of sort of preparing for the inevitable, you know, And I was so lucky to have him for another nine years after that. But ultimately, you know, I knew what was coming. And it was really a love letter to my dad, but also a way to kind of like, hopefully reach out to other people and say, listen, we're all going to go through this, and we want to be honest about what it's like for our family to come to the other side of this.

Tonya Mosley

I was wondering about you witnessing him and how that impacts your collaborations, particularly with Will and other people. Because, I mean, your dad is kind of the master collaborator with Michael Jackson, Frank Sinatra, Aretha Franklin. I mean, I can't even list all of the people that he's worked with. There are all such different people and talents and personalities and proclivities and different things like that. How much did growing up around him shape the way you kind of think about making things and collaborating with people?

Rashida Jones

Well, I can't even imagine doing it another way because of him, probably. I love collaboration. I love collaborating with Will. It feels so good to be able to celebrate something with somebody you love and somebody that, you know, You've kind of worked hard together to make this thing. So it is. Just feels like it was in my bones from a very early age. And, you know, I think his warmth, like, he knows how to make. Bring the best out of people because he was warm. Like. There's a great clip from We Are the World, which is in that documentary, the Greatest Night in Pop we're doing. Bob Dylan looks a little like shell shocked at being there, because I don't. I think he probably works a lot on his own and doesn't collaborate very often. And all of a sudden he's in a room with all these bright shining stars and having to be in a chorus of people. He just looks like, what the hell am I doing here? And my dad kind of comes up to him and makes him feel really good about his vocal performance. He's like, oh, you're great, man. You sound great. You sound great. It's just so lovely to see. Cause that's who he was. He was so warm and he made people. He pushed people to be their best selves. But he did it with love, you know, and he worked with some of the biggest stars in the world. And when they were in that room, like, regardless of, you know, what happens before and after that, when they're in that room, they're partners. They're working together to make something great.

Tonya Mosley

My guests today are Rashida Jones and Will McCormack, the writing team behind the new film the Invite. We'll Be right back after a short break. This is FRESH air.

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Tonya Mosley

this is FRESH AIR. And today I am talking with award winning performers and writers Rashida Jones and Will McCormack. They've been creative partners for more than two decades, first as co writers of Celeste and Jessie Forever, and now with their new film the Invite, a comedy about two couples and one dinner party that goes places nobody expected. It's directed by Olivia Wilde and stars Wilde, Seth Rogen, Penelope Cruz and Edward Norton. We spend a lot of time talking about you guys partnership, and I just want to diverge into your lives, your careers individually, just for a moment, Rasheeda, something that I'm very interested in. What a fascinating life you've lived so far. I want to know particularly about this moment when you were in college at Harvard University, you're planning to become a lawyer, is that right? That was kind of your trajectory?

Rashida Jones

Yeah. Yeah. I was rebelling from my Hollywood upbringing. You know, everybody has to rebel. That was my form of rebellion.

Tonya Mosley

But then it was the O.J. simpson trial that turned you around that said, no, wait a minute. Maybe law's not it for me. What was it about that case in particular that made you rethink this?

Rashida Jones

You know, it's funny because now looking back, I think at the time I had a very kind of black and white, no pun intended, vision of justice, you know, And I think that's what attracted me to law was like, oh, there's a right and There's a wrong and that's it. And now kind of with distance and understanding and like, you know, great pieces like Ezra Edelman's Made in America and Time. It was that trial, that moment was such a complicated moment. And I think, you know, I had this thing where I was like, I was living in a predominantly black dorm and we were all watched the Verdict together and, you know, half the people were cheering and half the people were just kind of like perplexed. And I was like somewhere in the middle where I was like, is this a win? Question mark? You know, like, is this a win and is this the guy that deserves the win? And I guess maybe in a weird way, that's when I sort of decided that I'm more interested in culture. And at the time I didn't know I was gonna be a writer. But I think culture and politics and justice and art all kind of line up for me constantly. Like, I can't avoid it. That does feel like the pattern of my life. And I think going into law stopped being interesting to me because it didn't feel like it was really about justice. It felt like it was about maybe a more complex thing than that. You know, especially like defense lawyers who are arguing against something and they believe very strongly in it. I think maybe the heartbreak of that would have been too much for me.

Tonya Mosley

It's so interesting to think about your. Yeah, I'm thinking about your young self thinking very much in black and white, right and wrong. Because it seems like when I look at the stories from that time that you talk about about yourself, that you were really kind of reaching out to the world. I'm thinking in particular about this letter. Maybe it happened a few years before when you also wrote the Tupac who had criticized your father in the source for his marriages to white women. And you sat down and typed this guy an open letter defending your family and you mailed it in and then I, you know, it became a whole thing. And you, he became like family to you. But the fact that you saw what you thought was wrong and said, I want to make this right and I'm going to assert myself. When you look back at your 17 year old self making that decision, what do you see?

Rashida Jones

So precocious. My God. So, you know, I mean, I was, I was, I did feel very protective and furious. But, you know, it's a great lesson because that letter led to us meeting and finding things in common. And he was a member of our family and, you know, such a bright, dynamic, interesting, talented, fascinating guy. You know, and I got I had a chance in college. I wrote that letter in high school. But when we were family and friendly, I interviewed him for a paper I did in college, and we had a really long, great conversation about culture and his life and history and American history. And, yeah, what an opportunity. Like, I guess if I hadn't been so strident about my, you know, beliefs, I would have never I would have never met him and we would have never had that moment to be able to see what we had in common. So in that way, it's good. But like, yeah, my my understanding of gray has only expanded as I get older. And my and I've really tried to put to bed this idea that there's there's a right and an absolute right and an absolute wrong. In that way, people are very complicated and interesting and worth listening to.

Tonya Mosley

If you're just joining us, my guests are Rashida Jones and Will McCormick. Together they wrote the new film the Invite, which was directed by Olivia Wilde and stars Wilde, Seth Rogen, Penelope Cruz and Edward Norton. It's in theaters now. We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH air.

Narrator / Advertisement Voice

This message comes from Audible. Manifestos are a call to action, an artful scream. They capture people's anger and try to do something with it. Dan Tabursky's Manifesto is a podcast that attempts to take the manifesto back from mass shooters and nihilists and return it to its rightful place with regular folks with just the right amount of crazy. Listen to Dan Tabursky's Manifesto wherever you get your podcasts or binge the entire series right now only with audible.

Edward Norton / Olivia Wilde / Seth Rogen / Penelope Cruz (actors in clips)

So you've decided you want to be more active. Exercise scientist Keith Diaz says, put away the smartwatch.

Tonya Mosley

Start by noticing your body's natural cues.

Will McCormack

For us to build a habit to check back in with our bodies, that behavior is much more likely to stick.

Tonya Mosley

Tracking what the body needs. That's on the TED Radio Hour podcast.

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Listen on the NPR app or wherever

Rashida Jones

you get your podcast.

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This message comes from the John D. And Catherine T. MacArthur foundation, recognizing extraordinarily creative individuals whose ideas, solutions and discoveries expand people's expectations of what's possible. Macfound.org this is FRESH AIR.

Tonya Mosley

And today I am talking with Rashida Jones and Will McCormack, writing partners for more than two decades, and the team behind the new film. The Invite Will your Becoming started in New Jersey. Your parents raised a West Wing star, your older sister Mary, a former chief justice, your sister Bridget, who led the Michigan Supreme Court and then you an Oscar Winner. What was expected of you kids growing up? This is what a family, you know?

Will McCormack

Oh, my gosh. Yeah. You know, I've been thinking so much about my parents recently who are both gone, and I miss them so much every day. But, you know, I think what they did with us was they really let us be us. And I think that, you know, my dad never ended up doing what he wanted to do in life. And I think that for his kids, the thing that he wanted to instill in us was that he would be most proud of us if we did what we wanted to do in life. And that's my earliest memory. He said, if you love it and if you believe it, do it. And, you know, being the youngest and having two older sisters, I really idolized them. They were smart and funny and beautiful, and they were my heroines, you know, they were just heroes in my life. And I do remember being a kid and thinking, oh, no, maybe I'm the runt of the litter here.

Tonya Mosley

Got a lot to live up to.

Rashida Jones

Yeah.

Will McCormack

But then I got my act together. You know, sobriety is a big part of my story, too. I've been sober for 19 years, and when I became sober, I really started to write. Like, I drank with, like, reckless abandon, and I really wanted to make a mark in my world, but I think I felt a pressure from a young age to make it, too. And I felt like I was sort of in the shadows of my sisters. But I really remember my parents saying, you know, we will be happiest if you do what you love, what you want to do. And I'm so glad that I found storytelling. I fell madly in love with storytelling. When I was in college, I worked at a movie the. And I saw thousands of movies, and I did plays, and I took Shakespeare, and I thought, oh, this is a way for me to be in the world.

Tonya Mosley

Your dad. What do you know, what he wanted to be?

Will McCormack

You know, it's interesting. My dad was so funny. My dad was the funniest person I've ever met. And he was so sharp. He's a Hoya. He went to Georgetown, and then he was. He worked for General Motors, and then he had a couple small businesses. I don't know. I really think he would have been, like, an incredible educator. He would have been an incredible professor. He had so much charisma, my dad. And he was so funny and so sharp that he was so magnanimous, you know, and people just gravitated towards him. So he mentioned a couple times that he would have liked to have to have been a teacher. But I think the thing that he was proud of us most proud of was being a father. And he did as well as one could do it.

Tonya Mosley

I think maybe one thing I just want to know before we go what are the parts of you that only can exist together, you know, that you make that only you can make together because you have so many things that you also have done apart, you know?

Will McCormack

Mm. That's a great question.

Rashida Jones

That is a great question. I mean, I really Will is like my closest chosen family in a way. And we really like it's almost like, oh, I don't want to get emotional, but I feel like Will and I see like our like the child versions of ourselves and can really like, take care of that little kid and each other because we're both very hard on ourselves and I think both being like the youngest, there's this thing that's like, oh, did we do it? Can we do it? Have we deserved all the love, the respect? Like, do people love us yet? And we I think we quell that in each other. Like, we sort of like very kind of gently love and respect each other and give each other the benefit of the doubt that we might not give ourselves. And then I think born of that is this sort of like, thing that lives in, you know, in the intersection between pain and humor and maybe hopefully something divine, like, hopefully we leave some room, as my dad always said, for God to walk in the door, because that's really our job ultimately is to channel. And so hopefully there's something about us coming together that allows that to happen.

Will McCormack

I don't want to get emotionally there, but what she said. Yeah, what she said.

Tonya Mosley

Well, this has been such a pleasure. I really enjoyed the Invite and just reviewing all of your work and seeing the through lines. Thank you both so much.

Rashida Jones

Thanks, Tanya.

Will McCormack

Thanks, Tonya.

Tonya Mosley

Rashida Jones and Will McCormack wrote the screenplay for the new film the Invite. It's in theaters now. Tomorrow on FRESH air, the story of a Cuban immigrant who showed up for a routine immigration check in last October and left in handcuffs, bound for a tent camp in Fort Bliss, now the largest immigration detention center in the country. We talk with New Yorker staff writer Jonathan Blitzer about life inside Camp East Montana. I hope you can join us to keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews. Follow us on Instagram at nprfreshair. You can also catch some of our interviews on YouTube at. This is Fresh Air. Fresh Air's executive producer is Sam Brigger, our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer today is Adam Stanischefsky. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Meyers, Anne Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, Anna Bauman, and Nico Gonzales Whistler. Our digital media producer is Molly CB Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show with Terry Groan. I'm Tonya Moseley.

Will McCormack

You know Every day on Up First, NPR's Golden Globe nominated morning news podcast, we bring you three essential stories. the heart of each story are questions what really happened? What really mattered? What happens next? At npr, we stand for your right to be curious and to follow the facts. Follow up first wherever you get your podcasts and start your day knowing what matters and what why.

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On this season of Planet Money Summer School, we follow the money and not just the dollars. We're following the yuan, the naira, the krona and more. Every Wednesday this summer, we're taking you on a world tour to meet the people, try new solutions to old economic problems. Planet Money Summer School. Grab some friends, pack your bags and don't forget the sunscreen. Listen on the NPR app or wherever

Will McCormack

you get your podcast.

Edward Norton / Olivia Wilde / Seth Rogen / Penelope Cruz (actors in clips)

This message comes from the John D. And Catherine T. MacArthur foundation, recognizing extraordinarily creative individuals whose ideas, solutions and discoveries expand people's expectations of what's possible. Macfound.org.