A

I think for the longest time, just as simple as waking up in the morning, it felt, you know, dreadful. And it felt like, oh, my God, I'm gonna have to deal with all these thoughts again today. How am I gonna get through this day with all of these thoughts? You know, so much lost time, being so wrapped up in the thoughts and the ruminations and not enjoying the moment. I do so badly want answers to things, and I want to be able to sort out my own mind and kind of untangle everything. And the biggest relief to me is I don't have to figure this out right now and. Or maybe, maybe not. That has been very helpful to me.

B

Hi, everyone. Welcome to another episode of the get to Know OCD podcast. I'm Dr. Patrick McGrath, the Chief Clinical Officer for NOCD. If you're looking for help for OCD related conditions, check us out@nocd.com we have licensed therapists waiting to meet with you and help you with OCD and related conditions. And, hey, we take insurance too. So we're happy to chat and see what we can do to help you live that life that you want to live and not the life that OCD wants you to live. Now, I am excited to introduce you today to Matthew Testa. Hey, Matthew, how are you?

A

I'm good, Dr. McGrath. How are you doing today?

B

I am doing well. Thank you for being here today. You. You reached out to me. I suddenly had an email in my inbox saying you wanted to come on the podcast and talk about ocd. And I was like, well, okay, let me get that to our people. And you talked to our peeps, and here we are. So. So, Matthew, we. We've not met before, but it's always. It's always fun when somebody is. Is willing to come on here and chat and talk about their life, their world with ocd. And so I'm going to give you some time to introduce yourself and tell everybody a little bit about you.

A

Sure. Yes. My name is Matt Testa. I'm 37 years old. I. I live in Chicago. I. I grew. I was born and raised in Chicago. I am married to my partner Jim, since 2020 now. So it's been, yeah, just about six years. And I think the reason that the. The real true reason as to why I reached out and sent that email was, you know, I am an avid listener of your podcast and I, you know, I think it would be interesting to have the perspective of un. Of somebody who is just getting started out on their OCD journey. I'm about a month in now, and, you know, I thought it would. I would find that helpful for me as a listener to have a fresh perspective of somebody who's just getting started, hence why I sent you that email. And, you know, I think it will be healing for me in its own right, and I think it will be. Yeah, I think it. It could help some people. So.

B

Well, definitely a perspective we haven't had yet. So that is. Yeah, that is awesome. So give us your OCD history and what led up to you finally deciding it was time to do some treatment.

A

Yeah, so I have been doing talk therapy for about a year, and my therapist had pointed out to me, she mentioned, you know, your thinking is very. It's either very black or very white. There's no room for gray, you know, and any techniques that she was giving me, I kind of was giving them the OCD treatment and obsessing over these, you know, techniques that I was learning in therapy. And, you know, I kind of went back to her and said, like, oh, well, I've been doing this, this. And she's like, that does seem a little bit, you know, like, OCD might be at play here. So from there, I kind of reached out to nocd, had that first phone call I got, set up with a therapist, and I am about one month in thus far.

B

So you go from the standard talk therapy, which we know is not so great for ocd, and now you're getting started into the ERP exposure and response prevention therapy world. What have you noticed the difference between those two so far and how you approach treatment?

A

I think talk therapy, there is a. There's a lot of, you know, looking back at, you know, things in the past and. And why, you know, things from the past are making you act in a certain way as you, you know, as you are today. I think what I found so interesting about ERP is the simplicity of it, is it sounds so simple in practice, and then putting that to use in everyday life and, you know, kind of interrupting those ruminations that happen. In my case, it's a lot of my OCD is rumination based. And, you know, it seems like such a simple thing. You know, just apply the erp. But, you know, to really do it in real life when you're out there in the real world is another thing. So I. I was surprised at how simple it was and yet how, you know, I think it's going to take a lot of practice and time to. To get it, you know, to where I would want it to be.

B

What's your OCD story How does OCD come into your life? And how did you, you know, start to recognize this is different than what other people are having to deal with in their day to day world?

A

So I think, you know, looking back now there, there were a lot of signs as a child of ocd, whether it be hair picking, nail picking, you know, counting things to make it fit a certain number. I would say in the year 2021 is when I would say my OCD really roughed up. My, my brother passed away in 2021. And I think the, in the impact of that there, a lot of my OCD starts is manifested in kind of fear of death, anxiety, ocd, you know, having not contamination, but more maybe fear of doctors or, you know, anxiety, health anxiety. And I think, you know, kind of boiling that down. I think a lot of it has to do with the unexpected death of my brother. So I think that is what spearheaded things. And I started to recognize that my thinking patterns were very obsessive. You know, I, I wasn't, I couldn't let go of the thought. I couldn't, you know, I couldn't, you know, I, the anxiety I was feeling day to day was just so intense. And especially when it seems like the biggest thing of all when you're, it's death, you know, health anxiety that, you know, seems so monumental. And so, you know, I, that, that's kind of, that's, that's the main OCD ritual for me is a rumination about health anxiety and death anxiety.

B

Sure, OCD does love a stressor. So sorry to hear of the death of your brother, but OCD will be like, ooh, gold mine of stress there. Let's, let's worry about that now and

A

go down that route. Right, right. Yeah. I think especially when you see, you know, mortality that close up to somebody that close to you. I think it just, it's. Something within my brain snapped a little bit. And ever since then it's, it's been a journey for sure.

B

Yeah. Where has that journey gone? And to what depth has OCD brought you to?

A

Oh my goodness. You know, there have been days where I don't really want to leave the house because of anxiety. There have been, there's been moments of just having an off kneeling and not even really being able to identify what that off kneeling is. And, but again, I think the bulk of, of how it comes to be with me is, is through rumination, just these thought loops that, you know, I'm arguing with this thought over and over again, trying to problem solve it and trying to workshop the shit out of it, you know, so.

B

And never enough, is it?

A

It's. There's. There's never enough. And even if you do indeed maybe get to a place where you feel you've found a solution and. Or you've solved the problem, it will. It's like whack a mole come up in a different way, in a different form, you know, So I think what I'm learning with my therapist at NOCD is, you know, all of these individual, you know, things that I'm doing, the whack a mole with don't have to be like, each thing dealt with individually. I think that, you know, there is kind of. With erp, there is kind of a blanket thing of, you know, being able to address all of those things with one set of thinking. That's. That's something that I'm taking away from him.

B

What led to. It's time to move on from talk therapy and do erp.

A

Well, I, I still do talk therapy. My. My therapist, she's. She's amazing. She's helped me tremendously. Yeah, cool. So I'm. I'm still doing that in conjunction with. With ERP therapy. But, yeah, I think just for mention of, you know, some OCD tendencies, I Then, of course, being in, you know, someone with OCD went and Googled the hell out of it and, you know, did immense research into it as a lot of OCD people will do. And, you know, I. I've never related so much to people's experiences or the symptoms that have, that were listed. I. I've just, like, it was so clear as day to me that this was something that I indeed identify with and this is something that it's unmistakably me. Like, I couldn't. There was no denying the fact that it was that. So

B

what's your take on why people still hold on to the idea that OCD is either washing your hands, straightening things, or checking the locks? I.

A

It's just. It's just such a loose term thrown around in society, and I. I think a lot of it has to do with what we see on movies and television. I think a lot of the way that it's portrayed in media is it's easier to, you know, showcase somebody with OCD showing a physical symptom on camera, doing this or doing this, locking a door. I think it's a lot harder to showcase kind of those rumination cycles. How do you put that on film? You know, So I think the easy way to do it is through those, you know, physical Compulsions. And. Yeah. And then I think it just trickles down into normal societal talk of, oh, I'm so ocd, you know, and, you know, I, when someone says that, I'm like, oh, man, you don't, you really don't know, you know?

B

Yeah. How do you educate people around that? Obviously, coming on here is one way that you're going to help doing that, but.

A

Yeah.

B

Is it. Once recognizing ocd, does it change how that statement comes across? Because I, I'll make. I'm going to make an assumption here.

A

You.

B

You tell me. But I'm going to bet at some points in your life you've said to people, well, that's so ocd. Or we hear people even say, man, if I just had a little ocd, I could really. That could really help me get through this experience. And does now, as you look back on that, are you like, that kind of thing or how does that feel?

A

Most definitely. I think I have for sure said that. Uh, you know, I think I do like a. A tidy space. And I have thrown that term around loosely. I'm so ocd. But kind of looking back in retrospect, it's like, man, you know, it's, it's. It, it so does not encapsulate what OCD is in any way. I mean, it's, it might be a minuscule fraction of that, but it doesn't, it doesn't almost touch it at all. You have a. Severity of it.

B

Yeah, yeah, yeah. With ERP and being introduced to the idea that you aren't going to talk yourself out of OCD or, Or. As I've been saying to folks lately, my job is not to give you an answer. It's to help you live with the question.

A

Oh, that's a hard one for me.

B

That's where I wanted to go. Yeah. What can you describe for the listeners what that inner voice or inner pull is to have an answer and yet to never actually achieve getting the answer that you feel that you have to have?

A

Yeah, it's like. It's like there's something. An analogy that my talk therapist uses is, you know, it's kind of like, you know, playing, you know, a. Kind of like a tug of war with rope with, you know, the monster. The monster being that, you know, that noise in your head. And it's like you could. You're. You're fighting, you're fighting, you're fighting and, you know, you're. You're trying so hard to just get comfortable and. Or to just, you know, find a solution. To why you're feeling so off or why you're feeling so terrible. And that research and that's, you know, and that scanning and that trying to find the answer, it's only feeding it. Like, I, I, I really am. That really is, you know, sinking in. I'm very new still in, in this process of ERP therapy. However, I do understand that that rumination is only feeding it, and I don't know if that answered your question properly, but. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, I, the rumination just intensifies it, and it will come up in another way, and I think, you know, I, you know, if I have it on my phone, maybe, maybe not. I mean, it's, it's a good reminder, I think, I think, I think that's the big one that hits home for me is that I do so badly want answers to things, and I want to be able to sort out my own mind and kind of untangle everything. And the biggest relief to me is I don't have to figure this out right now and, or maybe, maybe not, you know, and that, that has been very helpful to me.

B

OCD doesn't just affect you because you're married, you have a partner.

A

Yes.

B

What role have they been placed in over the course of your relationship in order to give OCD what OCD wants?

A

Oh, that's a great question. You know, this is, this OCD diagnosis is relatively new, but, you know, via talk therapy, my, my partner, Jim, he has been, he's, he's so, he's so caring and so thoughtful, and he really wants to understand. So he now is researching OCD and he's reading all the things about it, too, to better understand me. And I think, you know, when I am having an OCD moment, you know, I, we've kind of had a talk, and I've asked him to say, like, hey, you know, maybe this is OCD at play right now. And not in a facetious way, but in a way to kind of gently nudge me and for me to, you know, kind of check in with myself and be like, oh, you know what? You are probably right that this is an OCD moment, you know, or no cd. Thought so. He's been, he's been very supportive and very patient, like, surprisingly patient. So, yeah,

B

that's good. And I'm glad that he's patient. You know, obviously, obviously we want somebody to be patient in the experience. Yeah. Is it hard for them to not give in, though, to some of the things that OCD can demand?

A

Sure. Yeah. The reassurance seeking aspect of it could trickle in pretty easily for me. And I don't know if we really crossed that bridge yet and kind of created some boundaries with that. But he, he's, he is very reassuring and, you know, he's a lovely person, but we've yet to have that conversation. I think that there, you know, when I try to get reassurance or some of those OCD tendencies start to leak out, I'm sure that we will be able to cross that bridge. And, you know, he, he's reading up about it on it too. So I think we'll get the tools under our belt.

B

Yeah. Because having that extra support can be so essential through this experience. Right. That you don't, you don't have to do this alone. You're not just by yourself in the whole thing.

A

Right. And, you know, I think there's a fine line there too, where I don't want to create our whole existence around it either. So again, I think, you know, we got to find a, got to find a good balance with it. But yeah,

B

As you look to the future, you know, what, what are some goals that you have for treatment? What do you want to get out of the whole therapeutic experience?

A

I think, I mean, right now, in the near future, I'm looking to get a better grasp on better responses for rumination. I think, you know, again, it's early on yet. I think, you know, there, there are times where that rumination is happening because it's been second nature for me for, I don't know, the last, you know, 20 plus years of my life. And I think breaking that is very difficult. So I think for me in the near future, um, getting better at that response of maybe, maybe not from, you know, I'm, I'm still kind of collecting all my different responses to the ocd. I'm still, you know, getting those down. But I think, you know, being better with responding to the ruminations and being better identifying when the ruminations are happening as opposed to getting lost in it and then doing the ERP and be like, oh, wait, what was I just doing for 20 minutes? You know, I, I want to get, you know, kind of, I want to intercept there a little bit faster than what I am right now. That's the near term goal. Yeah, long term goal, I think for me is to just keep practicing and get myself to that understanding that the thoughts are going to be there. I think that's, that's something that's a bit of a hurdle for me is that the thoughts are going to be There it's a matter of how I react to those thoughts. I choose to select which thoughts I deem important, which ones I could dispose of and consider white noise. I think, you know, beefing that up and, you know, really doing those exercises and practicing that is, is, Is going to be helpful to me in the, in the long term.

B

You, you could have just lived with ocd, which sounds terrible, but, you know,

A

that sounds terrible.

B

Yeah. And maybe that's the reason to not live with ocd, Right. Is because that sounds terrible.

A

Precisely.

B

If you, looking back, can you see some things that you've lost to OCD along the way that you didn't maybe know at the time that that's what was going on, but now you can see, like, oh yeah, ocd, you know, really shit on that parade or something like that.

A

Yes. I think first and foremost, time. So much lost time of. And that could be an umbrella statement for being at a social gathering and being so wrapped up in the thoughts and the ruminations and not enjoying the moment. I think if I was to answer that, it's the biggest thing that I've lost to it is time and being present in the moment.

B

Okay.

A

Yeah.

B

And, and obviously time is not something that we can get back, but we can learn how to be in the moment. So is that a goal of yours? To live more in the moment and be in the experience as it's happening now versus what OCD wants you to do, which is to go back to all the past experiences and worry about how they're going to haunt you or think of all the potential future experiences and how bad they could go and then figure out a way to deal with them before you even have them happen.

A

Right. Yeah. I think I've been reading or I've been listening to a book, the Power of Now. Oh, yeah. And it's fascinating. Really fascinating. I mean, again, such a simple, simple, you know, concept and simple thing to. To do, yet so difficult to apply. But yeah, I've. I've been really, really focusing lately on, you know, just what happened 20 minutes ago, that's gone dead. There's. That's done that thing tomorrow has indeed not happened yet. And I think I could lose sight of that time to time. I think everybody can, but you know, really kind of honing in on that and really trying to remember that is a big takeaway for me and something that I am currently applying in all facets of my life.

B

Yeah, that, hey, that's great. Right? Because my goal when I'm working with people always is to do very similar things. Right. How can I just live with the now and the uncertainty of everything else? Right. As I'm talking to you, I don't know for 100% sure that my family is alive. Right. Right. They may not be. It's possible I could pause this right now and say I'm just going to give them a quick call just to be sure that they're okay. And then five minutes later, I would have to pause us again because what if they died within the five minutes of hanging up the call to then and so let me just call them one more time to make sure they're still alive. And I, I'd be, I'd be living in, like, little chunks. Right. I, I, I wouldn't be living life. I'd be leaving these, these just kind of really uncomfortable moments that are separated by some milliseconds of, of relief. And then I'm, I'm back in the cesspool of OCD all over again.

A

Yeah. And to go back, I, I think something that has surprised me about OCD and something you had just mentioned is that you can't, you know, all of these, all of these compulsions and, or the OCD thought itself, it can't be categorized. It, it almost like touches four different categories at once. That's, that's something that I found to be very surprising. And like, whether it be, you know, health anxiety could lead into appearance anxiety, and, you know, it, it's just, it could be a snowball effect that touches, you know, so many different topics at once. So I think that feels daunting. You know, when you're like, man, it's, it's, you know, it's, it's touching five different subjects right now that, you know, it seems so overwhelming. And I, I found it surprising and helpful to understand, like, you know, why things are related and know what, everything is kind of connected.

B

As, you know, OCD loves to make connections. Right. And I was not aware the worst connections. Well, yeah, think, you know, if you thought this, then that could lead to this, or if you had an image of this and you didn't neutralize it, then that could be why this has occurred. And if that's the case, and then I didn't do the compulsion, was it willfully, and then I'm a bad person because I chose not to do the thing that could have neutralized that thing, and now I have to live with that for the rest of my life that I've done this thing. So how do I prevent that from ever happening again? I'll do more compulsions, but this time I'll really do them well instead of that one time where I half assed the compulsion and didn't quite, quite do it the way I should.

A

Oh, you, you, you nailed it. Precisely. Exactly.

B

Yeah. And that's just the description of so many people's lives, unfortunately.

A

Yeah, yeah, it's, it's a very, it's a very difficult thing to, to live with, you know, it's, it really is. It's, it's very, very difficult. And yeah, it's, it's hard. But I think that's kind of why I want to come out, is that I, you know, I want people to know that even in this just one month of me doing it, there's, there's been significant changes that are minor. I mean, I think that was by four answers there. But, you know, I, there have been changes that are very noticeable for me. So

B

what are some of the biggest changes or any surprising to you that you've, you've experienced so far?

A

I think being able to label thoughts as they are, I think that that's been a big one. I think before I was just, this is my brain, these are the thoughts I'm having. All of these thoughts are true. Um, and I think now there is a little bit of me kind of having a bird's eye view on it more and being able to identify it from like, you know, from, from a different perspective. Rather than being in my head, I'm a little bit more outside my head looking, looking in, if that makes sense.

B

Yeah, absolutely. Especially if inside of your head is being ruled by ocd, Right. Taking, taking a different view, going, wait a minute, I don't have to look at it that way. Sometimes it's surprising to people when they realize, oh, I don't have to do the compulsion. I thought I did. Right. I thought that that was just the way that it was and this would be the rest of my life. I didn't know that I had a choice not to do it.

A

Yeah. And I, I think, you know, I, I, I wasn't even really fully aware that ruminating in itself is a compulsion. You know, I, I didn't know that, you know, an event could happen and then rumination happens. It feels so automatic that it's almost hard to cut that off and notice that that's a compulsion. So I think I mentioned that earlier, but that's still something that I'm working on and still working through, you know, and yeah, it's, it takes practice. I think that'll A long way to go.

B

But even if it is a long way to go, it has to start, right? And there are people out there or who are watching this who don't know if they're ready to start or if they want to start. And that's the whole purpose you came on. So what would you be your message to somebody who is struggling with that? Taking the first step and doing some of those first ERP Exercises or even making the call to get that erp What. What's that experience been like for you? And what would you say to motivate them to face those fears?

A

I think I would. I would first want to just show some compassion to that person and say, my God, you're. You're not alone in this. There's so many people that are dealing with this, and there's such a. There are professionals that can really help you. I would really start there because I think, unfortunately, there is still a stigma about getting help with mental health, and people have a certain view on it and are reluctant to get the help. So I would lead with compassion first, and I would then tell them that, what's the worst that could happen? Try it. You know, try it. And. And if it resonates with you and it's a avenue for yourself to feel better or, you know, start to do that, work on yourself. Why not? I mean, it's. It's. It's important to. It's an important thing to address. And I think the alternative of living with it and not addressing it could. Could lead you to. To a pretty, you know, miserable, you know, existence. So I think, yeah, getting the help and, you know, kind of not having the shame about the help and indeed, getting the help and doing the practicing, I would encourage anybody to do it. I think it's. I think it's so important. It is. For me, it is. You know, it's. It's so early still, but it is changing my perspective on. On so many things, and it's helping me a lot. So I. I would say that there is hope out there, and it's. It's worth a shot. Why not try it?

B

Because someone who hears that might say, well, the worst thing that could happen is all those obsessions could come true.

A

Right? Yeah.

B

And here's the thing. I'm not going to deny that. Right. Maybe they can. There's. But as your phone says, maybe. Maybe not.

A

Maybe not. Yeah.

B

You know, Matt, as much as your OCD wanted the guarantee of certainty, did you ever achieve it?

A

Never. No. Never? No.

B

Okay.

A

Never. No.

B

And do you think if you'd waited 15, 20 more years of doing to do therapy that you could have achieved certainty? Or was it. Was it a bucket with a hole in it trying to fill was an

A

endless bucket hole, you know, it really was. I mean, it doesn't. Doesn't matter how far you go down, how long you're doing it again, like the whack a mole. If it's not one topic, we'll show up in another. Um, so, yeah, it's. It's definitely that.

B

I love the whack a mole analogy of ocd. It's one of my favorites, actually. Yeah. Because just when you think I got that, oh, there's.

A

Oh.

B

Oh, you know, you're. You can't swing hard enough and fast enough to get it all, can you?

A

Really cannot. Absolutely not.

B

What do you look forward to now in the future compared to what a future looked like, Feeling like OCD was going to run it.

A

I think for me, just. I think for the longest time, just as simple as waking up in the morning, it felt, you know, dreadful and it felt like, oh, my God, I'm gonna have to deal with all these thoughts again today. How am I gonna get through this state with all of these thoughts? You know? So I. I'm really. Just boil it all down. What I'm really looking forward to is a calmer, just a calmer day to day without fighting the thoughts or fighting my own brain. And. And I think in turn, just that will make me a better partner, a better friend, a better son. You know, I think it's. It's time for me to kind of get my happy back. And, yeah, it's. It's time. So I look forward to just living a calmer, more happier, mentally healthier life.

B

I look forward to that for you as well. I really do. Think again.

A

I look. I look forward to that for you as well.

B

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I'm sure your family looks forward to that for you as well.

A

Yeah. Yeah.

B

Do they support you doing the work and the therapy?

A

You know, I have not. It's. Again, it's only been a month, so I haven't really. They know I'm in therapy, but they don't know that I've started ERP therapy.

B

They're gonna know now. Just so they're.

A

Gonna. They're gonna know now. It's on the Internet now. So, yeah, they'll know. But. Yeah, I mean, I think, yeah, a lot. I mean, some of my friends know, but yeah, my parents. I haven't had that discussion yet. So I'm gonna, gonna have to talk to them before this comes out.

B

Gu. That's cool. Are there things you want to know maybe that I can ask as, as a new person coming into ERP that I can kind of help you with at all?

A

Yeah, actually I'm curious about, and I don't know if I'm going to word this in the exact way, but the, the physiological difference between the OCD brain and the non OCD brain. What, what is that difference? What, what is the, the makeup of that or what is, is there an answer to that or.

B

Yeah, that's a great question. There's a lot of different theories on that. There's neurobiological theories, there is the way we process emotions. So like this idea of emotional processing theory and how much attention we put toward certain thoughts. Right. Do we have overvalued ideation for certain things and certain thoughts? I've heard people describe it as the way the brain processes things. A lot of stuff goes on a very indirect pathway, you know, like the birds chirping and the car driving by, which we pay a little attention to, but not a lot. But then there's things that get a loud noise that gets a lot of attention. And there's one idea I heard someone describing once that OCD takes things that ought to be on the not so prominent pathway and throws them on the prominent pathway and making them be like, this is really important. This is really important. When everybody else in your life, Matt, I'm assuming, is thinking it's really not right that that's not needing that time

A

or energy, Matt, I, I, I, and I have had, I've had those conversations with friends of mine. How do you, how do you not deem this important? This is like, how do you and

B

like, oh, does it surprise you sometimes that people don't think constantly about stuff the way you do?

A

Yes, it has. Particularly, particularly with my partner there, there are just small really, you know, non important things that I, that are in the grand scheme of things, not important, but things that I would do something a certain way. And he's just like, whoa, that's not how I'm doing that. You know, So I think there, there, there is definitely that. Like I'm seeing the difference between, you know, how my brain operates and how those around me, their brains operate. It's, it's different.

B

Yeah. And we're doing more and more studies. There's genetic studies being looked at, you know, like even family studies. What's the difference genetically of the person with ocd? Versus those in the family who don't have ocd. And can we find that out? But those are, those are really in their infancy trying to really understand exactly what's going on, what kind of feedback loops are happening. There's even concepts about, you know, compulsions are rewarding.

A

Right.

B

Even if it's just for a few milliseconds. But there's a reward that comes out of that. So is this a way to continuously get little hits of reward? Maybe dopamine or things like that? You know that, that. But you know, serotonin, does that play a role? We know that SSRIs can be potentially helpful for OCD tricyclics, which hit not only serotonin, but epinephrine and norepinephrine. For some people with really low level ocd. We have seen that adding a very low dose of an atypical antipsychotic can help crack the door open for people to be able to do ERP versus their near. What the DSM elite says they're near like delusional belief in their obsession as being a truth instead of. I recognize that as not necessarily, but what if kind of experience. And then there's surgical options for OCD that are out there for people who are really severe. They can do something called deep brain stimulation where you can create an electrical field within the brain that interferes with the brain's electrical field and seems to maybe kind of confuse the messaging that's going on. So there's, there's lots of stuff that's being done, but there's not one unifying overall. This is it theory as of yet.

A

Yeah. Back to the genetic component. You know, I. Growing up, my brother, you know, when we were younger kids, he, you know, before going to bed he would, the light switch would have to do six times and you know, so I recognized, I, when, when he was doing those things as a kid, me as a kid, I was recognizing like, oh my God, I have similar wants to do that. That's so weird. What, what is that? You know, so the genetic component, I, I think is.

B

It's like you, you have the genetic component.

A

For sure.

B

Yeah.

A

For sure. Yeah. Yeah.

B

That's interesting.

A

Yeah.

B

Any other questions I can answer for you that maybe you think our listeners would be interested into?

A

Yeah. For, for anybody that is struggling with rumination and you know that those non stop thoughts. What, what have you found to be the best response there? The best interception?

B

I've told people stop thinking. That has worked great. Everyone just listens to that and then they don't think of it anymore. No.

A

And then they go on their way. Great.

B

Yeah, yeah, yeah. One session cure. It's wonderful. I think the hardest thing for people to do is to accept that something's there without having to answer it. So that really becomes the focus of the work of how do I just allow it to be there without having to give it an answer? And, and those who are ruminating are going over it and over it and trying to come up with a new angle and get another. And maybe, maybe I'll think of every angle so that I'll have all of the answers. There won't be anything else to think about this thing. But of course it doesn't really work that way. And so get stuck in more and more rumination because you can never do enough thinking about something for ocd. So therefore you're stuck in the experience.

A

I can relate to that. Well, my other guy. Oh, sorry, did you have another. No.

B

If you had another.

A

I, I was just curious. I was just also curious how long you've been practicing ERP therapy.

B

Oh, sure. This has been 26 years now of doing ERP with people. So it's been, yeah, it's been quite a joy. I, I've enjoyed the ERP work very much and I like helping people live the lives they want to live and, and walk away from the life that OCD wants them to live. That's. That's really rewarding all of the time.

A

Yeah. I mean, and to, to tell, you know, to be able to help people on that level, I'm sure is very rewarding.

B

Yeah. And getting to do it on a broad scale like this with no CD is really rewarding too, because most of my work was in hospitals where I could help a small group of people with OCD and even in intensive programs, which was really rewarding. But to do this now on a more international type of scale, to finally bring OCD treatment to the masses, has really been a great evolution in the work that I do that I really enjoy.

A

Yeah. I'm so grateful to be a part of nocd. It's, it's, it's helping me tremendously. So. Yeah. Thank you.

B

Good. And was it easy to get a hold of NOCD and get a therapist and get started?

A

Hopefully, yes. It really, I'm not saying it because I'm talking from nocd. It really was the most user friendly. The call was fantastic. It was user friendly. The platform itself, the scheduling was fantastic. It was very easy.

B

That's awesome. Well, thank you for trusting us in the work. And I really appreciate you reaching out and saying that you wanted to do this to help inspire other people to get started in treatment. And I hope that what you've talked about today will do that. I. I think that it will. And so that's what, that's what's really exciting to me. Me.

A

I really hope so. And thank you for having me on today. I really appreciate it.

B

Awesome. Thanks, Matt. And thank all of you for watching the get to Know OCD podcast. If you're looking for help for OCD or related conditions, check us out@nocd.com that's nocd.com we'll see you again soon.