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Hello, and welcome to the Gzero World Podcast. I'm Ian Bremmer, and this is where you can find extended versions of my interviews from public television. In case you somehow missed it, America turns 250 this July 4th. Milestone birthdays are time for celebration, but if recent polling is any indication, a lot of Americans aren't exactly ready to party. Most say the country is heading in the wrong direction. Trust in government remains near historic lows, political polarization is high, and nearly 60% of Americans believe that the nation's best days are behind it. It may seem like a low point for the United States, but this isn't the first time that Americans have felt birthday blues. After all, the bicentennial year 1976 came just after the disastrous end to the Vietnam War, President Nixon's Watergate scandal, an energy crisis, and high inflation. Americans had lost faith in institutions and were deeply pessimistic about the future. Sounds kind of familiar. The United States didn't solve all of its problems in those turbulent years, but of course, it didn't collapse either. In many ways, the country celebrating its 250th birthday now is wealthier and healthier and safer and more inclusive than the country that celebrated its 200th. So how should Americans think about this moment? Can you be patriotic while still being deeply critical of your country's direction? Is there a difference between loving America and liking what you see happening right now? And why has patriotism become such a political battleground in the first place? My guest today has spent years weighing in on exactly those questions. Bill Maher, one of America's most recognizable comedians, political commentators, and cultural critics. And whether you agree with him or not, he's never been shy about telling Americans what he thinks is wrong with the country. But lately, he's also lamented that many Americans have lost sight of what's actually gone right. We discuss how he thinks America should celebrate its 250th, whether Democrats have ceded patriotism to Republicans, and what the country's critics get wrong. Let's get to it.

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A

FILLMORE thanks for joining the show. Sure. It's 250th anniversary of our country. How should we be celebrating it?

C

Well, we should be. I mean, a lot of People are boycotting it, something I've addressed on my show, because they associate it with Trump. And you can't do anything that has Trump's scent on it. So it's not my point of view. He doesn't own the country,

A

doesn't own

C

the flag, doesn't own the flag, doesn't own patriotism. And so I think you're cutting off your nose to spite your face if. If that's the tack you're taking. You know, I. I said a couple of weeks ago, maybe a month ago, all the people who pulled out of the event, the music performers, it wasn't like an A list roster anyway.

A

Why?

C

You know, it's one thing not to perform, say, at the UFC fight that he had at the White House lawn. That's a Trump event. I get it. It's a totally MAGA thing. This is not, you know, this is America. America's maga and people who are not maga, it's everybody. And it should be seen that way.

A

Yeah, Maga's, you know, 30, 35% of the country, these are Americans.

C

These are Americans. Part of the problem, I feel, is that I don't think schools do a very good job anymore teaching kids about the history of this country. Some places, they only accent the bad. I don't think they have a very good perspective on this country. They see it as colonizers and irredeemably racist. And certainly all of our sins are right there to be seen, and they are real and they are to be hated. But, you know, we're not a hell of a lot different than a lot of other countries in the bad things we did. And we're a hell of a lot better than a lot of other places in the good things we did. And it should be a balance. But unfortunately, you don't find that. I go back to. Kamala Harris is not my favorite candidate, but I did love her beginning of her acceptance speech at the convention. It was all about, take back patriotism. This America. We love this country. We love Americans. Because Democrats are always kind of getting this pressure for good reason. You need to convince the independent voter that you like this country.

A

Yeah. You give Democrats. You've said that Democrats are inadequately patriotic.

C

They certainly come off that way. And on the far left they are. They only see the bad. And it's ironic because, you know, Western values, which they seem to be against. I notice when they talk about Israel, they talk about an outpost of the Western world. Like that's a bad thing. I think that's a Good thing. And I think the values that came through Athens and Rome and London and Philadelphia are generally good values now, along the way. Did it take us too long to get there? Of course. Everything in history takes too long. And we did not live up to the ideals, of course, at first, and we're still a work in progress. But those ideals, the ideals of the Enlightenment, those are ideals that, ironically, if you're a minority or somebody who has gotten the bad end of the stick historically, they're there to protect you. They're there to raise you up. It's we who talk about human rights and about equal rights and civil rights and. And equal rights for women and homosexuals and racial civil rights. I mean, these things took too long, but they can't. But, you know, this is America. I mean, a lot of countries haven't even addressed them.

A

We had Glenn Greenwald on the show. I remember early on, it was interesting because he was just going off on all of this litany of horrible things about the United States. And I said, look, I said, I know that there are all of these things, but what would you say is admirable about the U.S. like, if you just had to pick a few things. And the question took him by surprise, but he ended up, I thought, in a much. It was a very good conversation, and he found a few things to actually bring up, but you have to give it a beat. So I don't think that's my role because there's so many people out there that are promoting all the good things, and I need to focus on these. He said, no, no, no. Your role is to, like, actually provide the whole thing.

C

Be truthful.

A

Be truthful.

C

Just be truthful. Be truthful and admit that a lot of the things that America birthed into this world are things you wouldn't want to live without. Rule of law is better than theocracy. It's not just different, it's better. Respect for minorities is better. Scientific inquiry is better. I mean, the reason why there's a Geneva Convention, why there is even the idea of war crimes, trial by jury, you know, all these things are imperfect because humans are imperfect. But, you know, balance of power of three branches of government. That was a genius idea that you create three different branches of government that keep each other in check. Now, we have gotten that way out of balance now because one of the branches is not doing its job. Congress, yes, but at least the idea is there, and one's doing a little

A

more of its job than perhaps the founders originally intended.

C

You're talking about The Supreme Court.

A

No, I'm talking about the President.

C

Oh, of course, yes. But that's been going on a long, long time.

A

That's right. The executive presidency, the imperial President.

C

That has been seen, right? Yeah.

A

Sore. So if you're talking to these entertainers and you know so many of them, I'm not asking you to give names and you say, hey, like, it would be better for our country for people like you to actually be out there and celebrate. What do they say?

C

I don't know. I mean, some of them wouldn't even talk to me.

A

Really?

C

That's a problem. Yeah, that's a big problem on the

A

left because they see that you've. You're too willing to go to the White House and actually talk to the President.

C

Exactly. Things like that. I mean, as I always say to my woke friends, we voted for the same person. You're just why she lost. You know, it's like if I'm not good enough. And by the way, even if I was a Trumper, which plainly I'm not, and I could show you all his tweets since I've been to the White House, they're not complimentary. I think that should be proof that I was not seduced. But even if I was, you should talk to me. But they would never. I mean, and it is a big problem in this country that anything. I mean, we just had elections here in California. I don't think in November, it's, we are going to have a Republican on the ballot for governor. I'm just learning about this guy, Steve Hilton. He's a new guy. I mean, are there things I'm not going to like? There are, but there's lots of things all of us don't like about what's going on in California now and how dysfunctional I mean, that was. What Fareed Takaria's column was today was all about the dysfunctional government of California. And this is what happens when you have one party government of either side. It's just not good. But I think something that is not recognized enough is that because Trump is so toxic to so many people, and I certainly understand why, that they don't even consider anyone with an R by their name.

A

It's also part of how he won was that very fact.

B

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A

So what's the right way? When you think about 2028 and the Democrats, you know, right now for the midterms, of course, just attack and, you know, affordability and show that he's not doing well and you can ride that. But when you think about 2028 and a real message, when you have a president who frequently is actually putting himself above the law of the land, above the country, above the interest of the country, how should the Democrats position themselves to be better than they have been?

C

Well, Andrew Sullivan had a great line a couple of weeks ago. He said, woke is not dead. It's just waiting. You know, I mean, he was quoting all these ideas and things that have been said by the candidate in Texas, Talarico, who is touted as somebody who could turn that state, which has not been a Democratic winner there for how long? I don't know, but a long, long.

A

Maybe Lloyd Benson and Trump is helping him out with Paxton as the nominee.

C

Yes. And they have, and they have an absolute Attila the Hun running for the, for the Republicans. But then I read some of the comments that Andrew was quoting and it's like, oh, God, you people just never learn. I mean, just, it's just crazy. It's just so, like, pointlessly, obviously anti common sense and people are just not gonna go for that. And that is still a demon that the Democrats have not driven a stake into the heart of. And they need somebody who has the guts to come along. I mean, I see Rahm Emanuel is trying to do it, but I don't see him actually getting the nomination. You have to. The problem is the primaries. You have to get through this steeplechase of the primary where the most radical people in your party do the best and then somehow get back in the general election to renouncing everything you said. Remember Mitt Romney? I'm shaking the Etch A Sketch. Well, easier said than done. And you know, the last guy who was able to thread that needle was Obama. But Obama was a real centrist. You know, he was a true centrist. Now, not everybody saw him that way, but he was. That's the kind of Democrat I like. And that's the kind I would hope would step forward again.

A

So I know that you're optimistic about the country. So am I. But are you optimistic about the political system?

C

Optimistic is a strong word. I don't know if I ever I said I love the country. I'm optimistic.

A

Well, you look at so much of the good of the country still I

C

still talk about it, live it. People have no clue, so many of them, about what life is like in other parts of the world, for one, or what life used to be like in this country, or really how easy they have it in many ways now. I'm not discounting the struggles. Lots of people have economic struggles, but statistics do matter. And also changes in quality of life matters. I mean, if you go back 100 years, we're talking about a hot shower being a luxury of life. If you just go back to when you and I were still alive, you know, lots of stuff is more expensive. It's true. College and food and, you know, we gotta do something. But lots of stuff is cheaper. And life itself, the quality of life. I was shocked to see that, actually. The millennials who complain a lot about the economy, I understand why. But Gen Z and millennials complain, and Gen X, which is the one had it way worse, and they don't complain. That's not a complaining generation.

A

No, it's a fairly quiet generation.

C

That's the quiet generation. That's the middle child, by the way. Is that what you were?

A

I'm a first child, but I am

C

barely Gen X. Gen X, yeah.

A

I don't want to be a boomer. It just feels older, you know?

C

Well, it is.

A

I know, exactly. So how do you think about the checks and balances? You know, at the beginning of this second Trump term, you were a little more concerned about the country descending into authoritarianism than I think you are today.

C

I was saying this on our show tonight because I live in the present, because I see things that happen and then I change my views according to what's going on now. I was saying that there was a slow moving coup before he was elected the first time. And also, as you recall, that he would never concede when everyone said you smoked too much pot. But that was the case. He still isn't considered. He still talks about it, and that's a terrible thing. I've also seen him stopped in many ways. Now, that doesn't mean I'm not still alarmed by what he very often tries to do. But I have seen Congress, New York Times had a big story, I don't know, six months ago or something, talking about the budget changes he tried to make within each department. Almost none of them came about. They're almost the exact same budget going to each, including ones he tried to get rid of altogether.

A

Look, I mean, Doge, the biggest thing he started off with lasted for how many months and how much was done right?

C

I mean, Doge was horrible.

A

Right.

C

And so was. So was what ICE was doing.

A

Had to get out of Minnesota.

C

These are real checks and balances. Congress really did that. Congress just. And it's quiet like, you don't hear a lot about it. I wouldn't have known that unless I read it in the paper. Like, oh, my gosh. Really? All these departments which they printed, like what he wanted to cut and then what the current allotment was. And it was what it used to be. Sometimes it went up. And then there's the Supreme Court, which, as you mentioned on the show tonight, they, they checked him on tariffs, Liberation Day, and lots of courts around the country have checked him on all sorts of immigration issues. So he can't exactly do everything he wants to do. I guess it was the Nora o' Donnell interview where he said, you're a terrible person. He is.

A

He is.

C

Lol. You got to give him that.

A

Yeah.

C

And. And she brought up the king's thing and he said, if I was a king, I wouldn't be talking to you now. That doesn't explain the whole situation. There are things about him that, I mean, he just acts like he wants to be a king. He doesn't want to deal with anybody except other leaders. He acts like it's the ancient.

A

If he were a king, he'd be spending as much time on the media, at least as he spends right now, because he can't help himself on that.

C

No, but I mean, he acts like it's the 18th century and it's just him and other leaders and they do it. The Congress is kind of a nuisance. And the Congress, of course, rolls over to whatever he wants to do pretty much anyway, but not totally, and not the courts and not even his own party. Recently, they, as we were saying, they revolted on the slush fund. They revolted on Bill Pulte. So they do have what I call safe words, you know, and we saw this after the 2020 election. Also, there were people, including his own attorney general, like Bill Barr, like Mitch McConnell, like Mike Pence, who was on our show a couple of weeks ago. There were ones who. Not that many. And of course, Mitt Romney and Adam Kissinger. But you know, McConnell, Pence, Liz Cheney, these are serious people. Bill Barr who said no.

A

And those senators you're seeing now, they

C

said, you did not win that election. You should stop the nonsense. We're not going along with this. We went along with almost everything you wanted to do. This is our moment to say no. So it does still exist to a degree. Am I worried? Yes. But you know he's going to be a lame duck president. I don't think he's actually even going to try to run again. Although he constantly will say there's ways you could do it. He said that to me a lot that night. I said, no, they're not. There's no ways you could do it. Yes, there is. No, there's not.

A

Ways you can overturn the last election. No, there aren't, as it turns out.

C

And we'll see.

A

So July 4th, 250. I remember the 200th the tall ships. I was a little kid, but I was very excited about it. What do you want to see? Americans.

C

I just have fun. It's a party, you know, it's 250. And try to put some balance in the situation. You know, I get it that there are probably schools in this country that maybe underplay how bad slavery was. I don't know. I didn't go to school in Alabama. I went to school in New Jersey. And even in New Jersey, I mean, even in 1968 New Jersey, we were absolutely taught slavery was horrible. They didn't whitewash it. But I'm sure it's different in Southern states. Is it that different in 2026? Maybe. I don't know. I don't know what's going on in Texas. But fine. I always say there's a grand bargain in the offing for everything. Teach the truth about slavery. Also teach the truth about communism because lots of colleges soft pedal that and that was a pretty horrible thing that killed a lot of people too. So just be real, just teach reality. We have a lot of blemishes in our past and we have a lot to be proud of and live in the moment, live in the present. We got to a pretty good place. You know, Mike Obama used to always say, the arc of history is long, but it bends toward justice.

A

Bill Maher, thanks for joining.

C

My pleasure.

A

That's it for today's edition of the Gzero World podcast. Why not make it official? Why don't you rate and review GZero World? 5 stars only. 5 stars. Otherwise, don't do it on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Tell your friends.

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