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Ying Deng

changes everything

William Curb

welcome to Hacking youg adhd. I'm your host William Curb and I have ADHD on this podcast I dig into the tools, tactics and best practices to help you work with your ADHD brain. Hey team. This week we're being joined by Ying Deng, known as ADHD Asian Girl across social media.

Co-host or Interviewer

I was able to get to know

William Curb

Ying a bit recently at the International ADHD Conference and I thought she'd be a great guest for the show. So meditation is something that I've wanted to discuss on the show for quite a while now, but it's also something where I know I have gaps in my knowledge, so I thought this would be a great chance to have that discussion. In our conversation today we get into what mindfulness and meditation actually is, because meditation often has quite the inaccurate image from popular media. We also talk about the reasons meditation can be beneficial for ADHD as well as some of the strategies to help bring meditation into our lives. Because as you know, ADHD can make starting a meditation habit hard. If you'd like to follow along on the show notes page, you can find that@hackingyouradhd.com 169 alright, keep on listening to find out how meditation can fit into your ADHD lifestyle.

Ying Deng

So for the listeners out there with hacking your adhd, my name is Ying. I'm on all social media with Handle ADHD Asian Girl. So I got a late ADHD diagnosis in my 20s, so now I'm an ADHD coach. I'm also a meditation teacher. That's really what I do. So I'm really passionate about making meditation more friendly for ADHD folks.

Co-host or Interviewer

Awesome. Yeah, and I was sure to add on that we got to meet each

William Curb

other at the ADHD conference. We were on a panel together.

Co-host or Interviewer

It was A lot of fun. And.

Ying Deng

And we ate pizza together.

Co-host or Interviewer

Oh, yeah, pizza, pizza. How can we forget pizza? It's the best part.

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But yeah.

Co-host or Interviewer

So we're here to talk about meditation and I feel like a lot of people might have a very poor view of meditation because, like, adhd, the way it's portrayed in popular media makes no sense. Like.

Ying Deng

Yes, that makes. Yeah, that's a good analogy. Yeah.

Co-host or Interviewer

Where it's just like, oh, this is something where you're sitting on the top of a mountain going om. Which probably is not what we're going for right here.

Ying Deng

Can you tell us a little bit

William Curb

about what meditation actually is?

Ying Deng

Yes. So meditation, the particular type of meditation I'm trained to teach is called mindfulness meditation. So I'm going to just talk more about mindfulness specifically. The mindfulness really is a type of paying attention, a type of awareness that usually associate with spaciousness, curiosity, openness, accepting to the present moment. So whatever it's your thoughts, emotion, body sensations, for example listeners out there, I invite you to just feel your body right now. Like, is your feet touching the floor or are you lying down? Are you sitting? Can you feel the surface supporting your body? Can you feel your breathing? Like your body parts breathing? This way of paying attention is essentially mindfulness. So that's when your body, mind are together in one place. That's mindfulness. So it's not some. You have to go hiking on top of a mountain and do all this spiritual stuff to get to this awareness. I always say people actually naturally have those moments. If you think back to your life, there are moments you feel fully present and alive and your body and mind are united. For some people, it may be when you are in awe with nature. For some people, a lot of ADHD folks I've talked to, they said it's when they exercise after exercise, you have that mental clarity. You really are in one place. So think back to your past and you probably had moments like that. And I always say that it's not some barrier to entry. Like, you actually already feel it. We're. We're just turning our attention towards more of those moments.

Co-host or Interviewer

Awesome. And like, to me, I can. That just sounds like beneficial in its own right. But because it just seems like, yeah, I would like to be more present and stuff, but then I'm having trouble verbalizing why that's important to do though. Can you speak about some of the benefits of doing this?

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Yes.

Ying Deng

So specifically for ADHD folks, there's research out there have shown that mindfulness meditation would reduce ADHD symptoms. For both adults and children, especially in attention. So I primarily havingattentive adhd and I definitely think it helped me a ton of just being aware and more able to keep track of my thoughts and more aware of if my thoughts go down in a train, I can redirect it back because meditation really is training the redirecting muscle, redirecting your attention back to whatever focus you have chosen. Also, it has shown to improve emotional functioning and increase self compassion, improve quality of life. It reduces depression and anxiety symptoms, it reduces ADHD parents stress level, potentially improve executive functioning both in adults and children and just generally improve general behavior. Yeah, yeah.

Co-host or Interviewer

And that makes the. Just the reduction in stress seems like a huge benefit since. And the most common comorbidity with ADHD is anxiety because.

Ying Deng

Yes.

Co-host or Interviewer

Who doesn't have anxiety nowadays?

Ying Deng

Yes, yes.

Co-host or Interviewer

But yeah, it does seem like something that'd be very beneficial for anyone with adhd, even if they're not feeling that anxious to kind of get more in touch with themselves. Because we do. Yeah. That inattentive side you don't even the hyperactive side being just like, I can't sit still being like, okay, well let's cultivate some of that.

Ying Deng

Absolutely. Yeah. For me personally, I think it's especially. I think it's especially beneficial for me in the way that I think a lot of ADHD folks were doing things that there's no roadmap out there. We're always exploring these discovered terrains and territories. So we're oftentimes have to navigate life with our heart instead of a roadmap set out there, which usually roadmaps are neurotypical so we can follow them anyways. So in terms of that, I was reflecting on it and it really helps me to know, okay. What my energy levels are, what kind of things I can do under those energy levels, what are things that actually nurturing me, what are things that actually may burn me out? And those muscles I cultivate through meditation, through mindfulness, they help me in general to better navigate my life.

Co-host or Interviewer

Awesome. Yeah. I had a friend also talking to me how when she was feeling really overwhelmed, especially planning if she did like five minutes of meditation beforehand, she was like, oh, I can now I can, I can figure this out now. This is. I was just feeling this anxiety and it was keeping. That was the block and was just doing a little bit calming down that made it so that I could move forward.

Ying Deng

Absolutely. Yeah. If we use that example, is all listeners out there. Imagine a time if you have adhd, you probably have felt the overwhelm of planning. And if you're doing meditation in those moments, it will look like. It might look like you pausing and you're recognizing, hey, I'm having this overwhelming feeling. And this pausing is helping us not to go into the storytelling of, oh, if I can't do this, I will fail. I will do this, this, and that. So this pausing already is reversing the storytelling and we allow it. We're saying like, hey, I'm feeling this overwhelm. Can I let this be? Can I be with it? Even if I it's not a good sensation, it's not a good feeling, but can I be with it? Can I let it be? And then you investigate where do you feel this feeling in your body? If it's, you know, on your face, a flash of heat, or for me, a lot of times it's my back tend to. Tends to tense up or like it might be your chest. Whatever you feel in the body, locate that sensation and you invite a nurturing either gesture for yourself, like a hand on your heart, or sometimes songs or poems, or imagine a loved one saying something to you. Like, you actually give yourself the self compassion you need. So that would be what it would look like to practice in those moments.

Co-host or Interviewer

Yeah, that sounds. Yeah. Because a lot of times we have these feelings and it's just so encompassing where we're just like, you know, like, you know, maybe it's like a hunger cue. It's like, oh, I have to have this piece of chocolate. And you're like, sit there and go, well, maybe I don't. Maybe I. I can feel. Feel this. I can feel this. And I can go, no, that's not what I need to do right now. We could, you know, maybe it's like, I really need to check my phone. And you're like, well, maybe I don't.

Ying Deng

Yeah.

William Curb

Yeah.

Ying Deng

I was actually just listening to Dr. Judd. He's having a new book out called the Hunger Habit. And he was just talking about it. He's like, in those moments, pausing, thinking about if you two particular thing, like eat that piece of chocolate, what that would make you feel and really like being those sensations and think, okay, if I choose something else, what that will make me feel and really like getting to the body sensations of that. And that will help you to hopefully help you to make better choices. And also that that like, totally in line with one of my favorite quotes from Victor Frankl, who is a psychiatrist and Holocaust survivor. He said, between stimulus and response, there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom. So meditation really is just kind of expand that space, give us a bit more time to think about, hey, how do we want to respond? Yeah, yeah.

Co-host or Interviewer

And I can, yeah, I feel like, yeah, having that pause seems really great. But I can also mentally hear listeners going, I have zero pause already. How do I, how can I build something from zero?

Ying Deng

Yes. I love that. So I think for ADHD folks, a few things, general strategies might really work. One is make it a fun challenge and game for yourself. So it could, maybe it's hard to say, I want to sit down to do meditation for 30 minutes, then do a fun challenge of can I be aware for two minutes out of an hour. Maybe it's when you put your socks on in the morning, maybe it's when you brewing the coffee, you hear the water bubbling up, being boiled. And maybe it's the first step you, you set out of your house. And that cold air, we're in the winter right now. The cold air hitting you, what does that feel like? What does that two breaths feel like? So make it a fun challenge. How can you be aware for two minutes out of an hour and practice with people? Body doubling works and body doubling will work for meditation. So if you can't, if you can't find online communities or in person communities, practice together. That would be easier. Curiosity. We are naturally curious, so use a lot of the curiosity, invite that in the meditation. I was like, huh? I wonder if I can try this new meditation style and use that variety to excite us to design a menu for ourselves. It doesn't have to be sitting there with no music, no nothing for 30 minutes. I oftentimes rotate through unguided meditations, guided meditations. I sit outside when I can with nature because nature actually has a lot more stimulus compared to when I'm sitting inside. So there's wind, there's sounds, so my body is more just in general, more stimulated. And I'm more likely to stay awake, which is a big problem for a lot of folks. We will fall asleep. I will fall asleep often. So those are some general tips, like the whatever that has helped ADHD folks to cultivate other habits. Those hacks most likely will work with meditation as well.

Co-host or Interviewer

Awesome. Yeah. Because it's not about doing the big gesture here. It's the no building the practice through small increments.

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Ying Deng

Absolutely. Yeah.

Co-host or Interviewer

And I, yeah, I see a lot of people that you know.

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Yeah.

Co-host or Interviewer

They're like, I have adhd, I can't meditate. So I don't see why. But it's. Yeah, just go for. Okay, well if you can't sit still for five minutes, can you sit still for two minutes or a minute or 30 seconds?

Ying Deng

Exactly, exactly. Well, I will break it into my analogy of cooking. I will bring it in. So for me, when I start to learn sourdough baking, I have to be very strategic and think about can I first really learn a very basic bread? Well, like. And then, you know, increase the difficulty. It's the same thing with meditation of. Yeah. If you, if five minutes is too much, let's try. Start with one, try two minutes, three minutes and just slowly increase that muscle as well as if sitting still is not helping you then do movement. There is walking meditation, people walking, nature as well as I personally use movement a lot as a transition from my day to day to the more meditative pauses. So I will use yoga stretches or shaking to get that excessive energy out. So I can help myself transition into. I can sit down and actually meditate. And there's mindful movements out there that you just do the movements as your meditation. So there's tons of varieties out there.

Co-host or Interviewer

Yeah. And there's also to like speak like. Yeah. There's multiple types of meditation as well. We're talking specifically about mindfulness, but I know there's like transcendental which is probably a little bit intense for most people starting because I understand it's quite, that's more of like the like hour long meditations and stuff from what I understand.

Ying Deng

Yes.

Co-host or Interviewer

But there's also like loving kindness.

Ying Deng

Yes.

Co-host or Interviewer

A number of others.

Ying Deng

Loving kindness.

Co-host or Interviewer

Yeah. Well, how about we tell people a bit because I think that's one's really great for just cultivating that.

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Yes.

Co-host or Interviewer

Like good feelings.

Ying Deng

Yes. So that's, that's what goes back to what we talked about. Mindfulness. The two different aspects. One is awareness and one's loving. So other than training the concentration and paying attention in this very specific way with the loving part, there's a whole sloth of heart oriented meditation, loving kindness meditation, joy meditation, stuff like that. The most common one people know is called Metta, which is loving kindness meditation. It's when you have a sincere wish for yourself and others to not go through suffering and to live their life as peaceful as possible and not go through suffering. A lot of times people, and me too, I would do my Metta loving kindness meditation towards the end of my practice. So. So I will be like sitting there for a while now and I will end my meditation with I wish all beings in the world live life with as little suffering as possible. Things like that. And yeah, it's. And it takes time. It cultivates. At first I was like, huh, this sounds fake. I would even have thoughts in my head, like I have doubts. I'm like, that sounds kind of fake. But the more you do it, the more you just orient your heart towards that loving, open heart ness towards yourself and towards others.

Co-host or Interviewer

Yeah. And I think that's that point too. That you might not see results immediately.

Ying Deng

No. Yeah.

Co-host or Interviewer

Which is very hard with dht.

Ying Deng

Yes, it is. It does take time. I remember when I was in grad school and doing meditation on body scan. I'm like, am I doing this right? They're saying like, oh, imagining light fulfilling your hope, but imagining life filling your whole body, body scan your foot and all the way up to your head or other way around. I was just like, am I doing this right? But it's kind of like learning any new skills. Like thinking back to when you first learned swimming or riding a bike. It takes time. It just takes a lot of time for that muscle to build.

Co-host or Interviewer

Yeah. And just to kind of. Is there like a. Do people have like a. We have a sense of like how long it might take someone to like see any results rather than them just being like I'm. Because I know when I've done meditation in the past, I don't currently have a practice, just have fallen out of the habit. And now I'm going to be like, do that again. But in the best way possible. Yeah. Is.

Ying Deng

Yeah.

Co-host or Interviewer

It can feel like, it's like I'm, why am I doing this? This isn't doing anything. Like, do we have how long it would take for People to kind of get that feeling of hey, this is making a difference.

Ying Deng

Yeah. So the best I can think about in this particular case I'm thinking about a study about meditation practice specifically for ADHD. ADHD adults. I believe what they did is they did eight week courses. So it would be eight week of 90 minute session courses and they start to feel result after eight weeks or even within the eight weeks they, towards the end they start to really feel the result of it.

Co-host or Interviewer

So it is something that people are going to have to put in a more than just being like I'm a weekend and this is hard. So. And I think that's an even better reason to be doing this with some sort of accountability because.

Ying Deng

Absolutely. Yeah.

Co-host or Interviewer

Like we were saying. Yeah. Having a body double but also being like, hey, we're going to do this for a number of weeks, that makes it much easier.

Ying Deng

Yes. And yeah, I actually will be offering courses later this year. I will offer two courses of introduction to mindfulness courses and since I'm still in teacher training, so most likely those would be free or donation based. So people out there, if you're interested, you're welcome to join. And yeah, I personally find being a community really helps. I actually work for a mindfulness startup. That's how much I believe it. So that's just me. Yeah, yeah.

Co-host or Interviewer

I mean, because it is, it's one of those hard things. It's really funny to describe mindfulness as being hard when really it's like very, very easy to do. But it's the executive function of making yourself do it as hard.

Ying Deng

Yeah, I think it's, it's simple. Like the practice sounds simple. There's very concrete steps you can do but it's, it's, it's hard in the sense it's going against what our modern society is wiring our brain to do. Like all of the phone and technology, they are trying to get our attention, they're trying to get us focused on a bazillion things at the same time. So yeah, we're going against the grain in a way. So that actually gets me excited because my ADHD flavor is more like I'm gonna be rebellious or something like that becomes part of my motivation.

Co-host or Interviewer

Yeah, I can definitely see that. But yeah, it's also, yeah, it's yeah, simple. Get simple does not always mean things are easy. And it's, there's a lot of, like a lot of planning steps that go into it. Like when am I going to be doing this, how am I going to. What's going to be the trigger for me to going on it like because there is a lot of executive function on back end of like how I'm going to make time for this in my schedule because like many things in my life I'm. It'll. It's easy for me to just not do because I don't think about doing it because I'm doing. I'm busy with other stuff.

Ying Deng

Yeah absolutely. That totally makes sense. So for me personally I have a few go tos like I have like high, medium low energy ways of doing meditation. If I have a really good day or I really just and just on fire with meditation. I usually do a pretty long sit down meditation practice usually in my office if the weather is nice I'm outside like sitting on my deck because I love that medium energy way of doing it may look like I will use. I will lean more heavily on a guided meditation. I should say the high energy one. I usually am unguided. I'm just listening to music or you know and just really doing the practice by myself. The medium energy version I usually lean on a guided practice maybe 15, 20 minutes guided practice. That would be my medium energy way and low energy way. Yeah sometimes I'm just like I'm walking in nature and I'm like specifically paying attention to my body walking or visuals and sounds or I'm having the go to meditations of like yeah I'm. I'm letting my dog outside of the backyard so she can does her business and I'm just doing a little walking meditation and doing meta at the same time of wishing all beings have as less suffering as possible. So I build into different versions for myself and I fully recognize all different versions of welcome. I'm not bashing myself when I'm on the low energy days. I think that's what's important is not self criticized when you can't do the high energy version all the time.

Co-host or Interviewer

Yeah because. And I think that's an important thing for us to recognize is that hey we can do this in a way that's going to work for us on that day because we're not always going to be at the same time. Energy level, ability to focus, ability to let go of our thoughts and stuff.

Ying Deng

Yes, yes. Well that's actually brings to an interesting point of what meditation is not. We're not actually getting. Trying to get rid of thoughts. What we're training is redirecting is imagining your sky and all weather is just come and go and you can hold it all. There'll be sunny day. He's like good thoughts. There would be rainy days, like you know, bad. Not bad, but anxious thoughts or worry thoughts or fear thoughts. They come and they go. We redirect to this spaciousness that holds it all. And instead of being entangled with any particular weather or any particular thoughts.

Co-host or Interviewer

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. Yeah. And approaching it from that, like, yeah, non judgmental. I'm having this thought. The thought does not make me a bad person.

Ying Deng

Exactly.

Co-host or Interviewer

I don't have to focus on it or like. Yeah, yeah. I was thinking of letting go thoughts in the sense of like just that clove cloud floating by, watching it.

Ying Deng

Yeah, yeah. Fleeting by. Exactly. I actually experienced that a lot. When I first started meditating. I was hyper aware. I was a very judgmental person. But now looking to that statement, I would say like, huh. In those moments I just had thoughts of judgment. I wouldn't label it as I was a. I'm a judgmental person. And then it, the next step will be how do I feel compassion for myself even I would judge myself for judging other people. So yeah, that's why you need both loving and awareness. Because if it's only awareness. Wow. I was really aware that was a judgmental person.

Co-host or Interviewer

Yeah, I've been there. Yeah. It's just like, okay, let's get, let's. I'm aware of this, let's fix it. And I was like, no, that's, that's not what. We're not here to fix things.

Ying Deng

Yes. Yeah, exactly.

Co-host or Interviewer

Um, yeah. So I guess that also brings up the idea of like, are there like wrong ways to meditate?

Ying Deng

Oh, that's a good question.

Co-host or Interviewer

Like there's obviously like, you know,

William Curb

things

Co-host or Interviewer

that just straight up aren't meditation. But

Ying Deng

that, that's what's interesting because in the, in real practice a lot of times what meditation could look like is you spend a long time thinking about planning your day or you're going back and ruminating about things. But then how you practice in those moments is noting of. I note with very simple past and future. I don't go into labeling exact thoughts and motions. Sometimes that's difficult for me. I would just be like past, past, future, future. It's the moments of redirecting and remembering. Like, hey, we're still watching this. Mental morphing sensations. I personally don't think there could be wrong ways to meditate. But of course meditation don't replace like therapy or psychiatry or any sort of mental health, mental health care. So that, that's the caveat out there. I think it's One of those things. Even if you feel like you had a bad meditation, like, even if you feel like you had a bad workout, it's still a good workout.

Co-host or Interviewer

Yeah. Where is when? As long as you're doing the right direction, it's the. It's the act of doing it. I can't be like, yeah, well, I watch TikTok for 15 minutes. That was my meditation.

Ying Deng

Exactly. You can't. You can't count on that. Yeah, exactly.

Co-host or Interviewer

Like, I watch TikTok for 15 minutes. That was my workout for the day. I saw some people.

Ying Deng

Yeah, that does not work.

Co-host or Interviewer

But, yeah, outside of that. Yeah, just do. Building the habit and the idea that even bad days are building your. Your ability to. To do it. Especially, I think especially in days, especially

Ying Deng

in bedding, especially in those meditations, you think like, oh, my God, I just spent the whole time thinking about the future. But then you're so aware that you were thinking about the future. You were not so entangled with all the planning and worry or fear or excitement.

Co-host or Interviewer

Yeah. All right, well, we're kind of coming

William Curb

up, up in time here, so I

Co-host or Interviewer

was wondering if there was any thoughts you wanted to leave the audience with.

Ying Deng

Yeah, I would just really encourage people to explore varieties of meditations out there. Like, varieties excites ADHD folks. So notice what works for you specifically, because what works for my ADHD brain or other people's ADHD brain may not work for your ADHD brain. And as well as just don't be afraid to tweak the practice. I was really afraid at the beginning of, like, oh, I should be following one particular way of meditation. No, I've found that I need to mix things. I need to do movement, then transition into meditation or do guided meditations at the beginning and then transition into unguided. So try things out, tweak things and see what works for you and use all the hacks that will help you build other hobbies and habits and using those hacks for meditation.

Co-host or Interviewer

All right, and if people want to find out more stuff, more about you and more about meditation, where should they go?

Ying Deng

Yes, you can find me@adhdasiangirl.com I have my meditation page there. I have some meditations on my YouTube channel also DhDasian Girl. And like I said, I will be offering courses this year, so people stay tuned.

Co-host or Interviewer

Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show. I'm sure people will really get a

William Curb

lot out of this.

Ying Deng

Oh, thank you so much for having me, Willem.

William Curb

Thanks again to Ying for coming on the show and thank you for sticking with us all the way to the end.

Ying Deng

Thanks.

William Curb

I also wanted to let you know that Ying now has a six week introductory course to mindfulness. If you're interested in getting into a meditation practice, you can just go to adhdasiangirl.comcourse to find out more or just check the show notes for links. But before you go, let's do a quick rundown of today's top tips.

Co-host or Interviewer

1.

William Curb

We can engage in mindfulness during daily activities like putting on socks or brewing our coffee. By focusing on sensations and what we're feeling, we can work on being present in the moment and building up that mindfulness muscle. 2. ADHD can make it hard for us

Co-host or Interviewer

to build our practice so we can

William Curb

mix up our tune with guided and unguided meditations, sitting outside to connect with nature, or engage in mindful movements to cater to how we're feeling on any particular given day.

Co-host or Interviewer

3.

William Curb

We don't need to meditate for long periods of time and if we do find that challenging, we can start with shorter, more manageable sessions and gradually increase the duration as we build up the habit.

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4.

William Curb

Body doubling can be a great way for us to get into a meditation practice, partner up with someone or join a community for meditation sessions to make the practice more engaging and keep you accountable. That's it. Thanks for listening. I'd love to hear what you thought of this episode. Feel free to connect with me over@hackingyouradhd.com contact if you'd like links or to read this episode's transcript, you can go to the show notes page@hackingyouradhd.com 169 if

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you'd like to support the show, the

William Curb

best way to do so is to

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tell someone about the show, especially if

William Curb

you think a particular episode would resonate with them. Just click the Share button on your podcast player and send it over to them. And now for your moment of dad what did the French chef give his wife on Valentine's Day? Horse a hug in the quiche.

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