America 250: Jazz

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Welcome to The Hillsdale College K12 classical education podcast, bringing you insight into classical education and its unique emphasis on human virtue and moral character, responsible citizenship, content, rich curricula and teacher led classrooms. Now your host, Scott Bertram. Thanks for listening. The Hillsdale College K12 Classical Education Podcast is part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. More episodes at podcast hillsdale.edu or wherever you get your audio. You also can find more information on topics and ideas discussed on this show at our website k12 hillsdale.edu. we're joined by Chris McCurry. He's an artist and director of Jazz Ensembles Trumpet here at Hillsdale College. Chris, thanks so much for joining us. So happy to be here talking about the Jazz Constitution and how it relates to education for listeners who might not be musicians or familiar with the term. What is the Jazz Constitution? What does that phrase mean?

C

Jazz is the perfect metaphor for the for democracy. And the reason for that is because the three aspects of jazz are improvisation, the concept of swing, and the blues. If I go back and unpack those, Improvisation is the ability for each player in the ensemble to play what they feel. They get to play whatever they want. Nobody can alter what they're playing. If I don't like what they're playing, that's too bad because that is their interpretation. I've got to listen to it and I've got to incorporate it into what I do. And that's part of the improvisation. Now in swing is a little, little more complex because sometimes when we say swing, people think about swinging eighth notes. But the way to think about it is if you hear a really good band or a jazz musician hears a really good band, say, the Basie Band says, man, the Basie Band was swinging last night. Oh man, they sounded so good. Oh, they were swinging so hard. What does that mean? Well, if we compare it to circumstances this has happened to me, where people will say, hey, the band sounded good. And I'll say, yeah, but they weren't really swinging. You know? What does that mean? Basically what that means is that everybody is on the same Page Everybody. Everybody is balanced. Everybody is pursuing the same goal. Make the band sound good. Now, a lot of times you can have a drummer that plays way too loud because drummers like to do that. Or you have, say, a saxophone player who solos way too long. Saxophone players do that. They're very well known for that. You know, what do you do about that? There's nothing you can do about that. You've got to make it work, and you've got to make it work Now. When you have to make something work, the idea of you standing out or you standing above the rest has got to be curtailed for the greater goal of the ensemble. I'm. We just had a great basketball tournament. The Knicks won. I'm not happy about it, but they won. But I'm a big Cleveland fan, okay? So if we think about who the greatest basketball player is, it's not LeBron James, it's Michael Jordan. Everybody knows that. Now, it's not necessarily because Michael Jordan won more championships, but it's because Michael Jordan. There was a game. It was the seventh. It was the seventh game. I can't remember who was playing, but it came down to the final shot, and Jordan passed the ball off to Steve Kerr, who was open and hit the three. And that blew everybody's mind because Jordan was the greatest player. LeBron hadn't been around. The greatest player should take the last shot. But Jordan passed the ball off, and they won the game. He was about winning. I used to think that when I played in a group of lesser musicians like my students. Now I love them all, but, you know, they're not on, you know, the same level, that because I was, say, so much better than more skilled, that I would really stand out and look really good. But that's not the way it works. I come off as I'm showing off or it just doesn't work. Now, in the classical world, it works a little easier. I. I used to play in brass quintets. I'd be the first trumpet, and I could carry the group, and that would work. But in jazz, it doesn't work. You have got to play to the level of the players you are with. I was talking to a saxophone player and he was telling me when he was a student at New England Conservatory one night, but it was a 3am and Roy Hargrove walks through the door. Now, if you don't know who Roy Hargrove is, think of him as the modern Miles Davis.

B

Okay?

C

He's phenomenal. He passed away a while back, but he's one of he's one of my favorite trumpet players. He's one of every trumpet player's favorite favorite trumpet players. Well, Roy Hargrove comes in at 3am and at this jam session and. And Israel was playing and. And he's like, oh, my gosh, I can't believe Roy just walked in. So they're like, oh, Roy, Mr. Hargrove, you come up and play. And Roy said, yeah, I will eventually. You know, let me hear you guys play first. So they played. He said, we sounded horrible. He said, I took a solo, I sounded horrible. It was all awful. And we were just couldn't believe it. So Roy comes up to play, and all of a sudden it sounds good. All of a sudden the band sounds good. And, you know, Roy wasn't doing any crazy stuff. He was just fitting into the group. And it wasn't because Roy was such a great player. There was something about him that the players felt that he trusted what they were doing. He was with them. He wasn't there to show them off, show, show them up or anything like that. Now, since I experienced that, when I go into play with younger people, I really dial it down. I'm trying to be on their level and bring them all up together. So. So that's an important part of swinging. It's an important part of swinging because if somebody's out of balance, it ruins the band will not swing. And that's the ultimate goal. Like Michael Jordan, the. The goal was to win the seventh game. It wasn't about him taking the last shot. And I think that's why people look at him as like, such a greater player. LeBron's first year in Cleveland, I mean, we were very excited. I mean, they made it to the playoffs, but you can't win with one guy. And they got swept by the San Antonio Spurs. It was terrible. But later, a few years later, you know, he had J.R. ryder, he had Irving in there. I mean, he had a team, and they were able to win. So I do think that that's the difference between, you know, one person trying to dominate and another person going, look, the ensemble is what needs to dominate. And what does that mean? What is my part in that? You know, if you're. If you're a drummer, you don't play louder than the bass player. If you're playing second trumpet, you don't play louder than the first trumpet. It's all got to be balanced and you got to know your job. So with that in mind, you know, things like egos are not very beneficial. I'm Always telling my students, the ego is your central vill that your central villain you're trying to defeat. I mean, especially as a trumpet player. Boy, trumpet players have egos that are just ridiculous.

B

Worse than saxophonists?

C

Oh, they're the very worst. They're the. Well, let's see. I'm not including violinists or pianists because they're pianists or something else, but. But, yeah, the trumpet, because of its dominant position in all the ensembles, it's easy to take that approach. And I sometimes will do, too. I'm a strong player, but if I play that way, and I have gotten reviews from students, I have all the students write reviews of all the concerts I've been accused of showing off. And, you know, they would be put in different ways, but it wasn't easy to hear. But I had to recognize they're saying something. So, you know, I changed my approach a little bit. I don't go to be the guy, all right? I'm going there to make the ensemble. And that was a hard thing for me to come to terms with. But I've learned that that's what makes the overall product better. So, you know, there's times, you know, where I won't even play us. We did a concert two years ago, and I wrote one of the tunes, and the guys in the band were surprised that I didn't take a solo on those tunes. But it had gone on enough. If I added me, it would have just been too much. And so I'm learning those lessons. But of course, I'm 63 now, so it comes with age. Wisdom comes with age.

B

So we talked a little about improvisation and swing. Do you want to say a little more about the third aspect there, the blues?

C

Yes, the blues is a very important part of jazz. The blues are real unique. First of all, harmonically speaking, the main chord is not a traditional one chord that we find in European music. It's a dominant chord. Now, why the slaves, when they came over, were drawn to that chord so much, I don't know. It has a lot of tension in it, and it takes a little getting used to being a one chord that's also dominant. So that's a little theory, a little getting to the theory. So that's a unique thing. But in all that complexity, there are basically three chords. You've got your one chord, your four chord, and your five chord. Now, those can be changed and dressed up in different ways. But we have a song form that is both very simple and also can be very complex because there's a Lot of stuff you can add to that. So aside from the harmonic issues, there's the idea of the blues. Now a lot of times people think of the blues as sad and it's not sad. It's about life. And when we have a blues tune, we'll have lyrics and the first two lyrics will be the same. You know, maybe something like, Daniel, today I got up and I'm feeling some blues. Da bop dopa da da da da Buddha. That'd be the answer. Second line, I've woke up today and I'm feeling the blues, but don't get data, but. And then the last line will be different and hopeful. I know I'm going to make it, cuz I always do. Now that is kind of the form of the blues where we have a call and response. The call was the words I sang, the response was the little scat thing I did. You heard the first two are the same and then the last one's different. And it's generally hopeful. So the blues is not sad. What the blues is, is accepting the troubles in life and being hopeful about them. So that's why the blues is such an important song form, because it's. It raises our spirit, you know, it recognizes the difficulties in life, but it also recognizes we have the ability to overcome. So. And there is no jazz without blues. There's so many concepts melodically, blues notes, there's also. You tend to do alternate sounds, more half valves, moans, cries, shakes, all that stuff that's just more emotional. You'll find that in the blues. And then there's the blue notes, which are flattened notes from the regular, which gives it so much more pull. So improvisation, the ability to swing, which means staying together and having the final goal be a great performance. And the blues, which is essential to all jazz. So those three things.

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Let's talk about a couple of details there. So how is trust earned among musicians in a jazz group? And then once you have that trust, what does it allow you to do musically?

C

That's a great question. The trust has got to be given as just the basic beginning where you start. You've got to trust that person. Now there are times where you run into somebody that you can't really trust you and then you don't work with them no more. Now that doesn't happen very often because for the most part, jazz players understand the final result is what we're looking for. But you got guys with personality sometimes that, you know, you may have worked something out. And then one guy decides, no, I'm going To take. I'm going to take 50 choruses here, you know, and you're like, all right. Or. And then sometimes when that happens, the rhythm section will stop playing even and the saxophone player will just keep playing. It doesn't even notice, you know, so there's that, but there's. The trust issue is very important because you're making things up on the fly and you need people that. To support you and make you sound good. If I'm playing an altered harmony on a chord and the piano player plays unaltered harmony on the chord because he's not listening, it's going to be a big clash. So they have to listen and do that. And if they're not listening, you know, you could get somebody doing on purpose, I don't know. But the trust issue is very important. And if. Here's the thing, I can play brass quintet music or orchestral music with people I don't particularly like or trust, but I can't do that in jazz. I've run into that problem and it just. There's something about it that just destroys the feeling. Now sometimes you have to do that, but it's not the same feeling. It's not a feeling of joy. It's not a feeling of camaraderie. It's a job. It turns into a job at that point. And so trust is very important. It's very important to feel that from the other guys. And the interesting thing is, is that these issues tend to not be a problem in the jazz ensemble. It's very rare because we're all in the same boat, you know, as that goes. So. Yeah, that's a good question though.

B

You've got creativity in jazz and, and, and that creativity is celebrated, but you also do that within the structure that's been established, this trust that we've talked about. So.

C

That's right.

B

Do you need these standards and these agreed upon rules to actually have kind of true freedom?

C

Absolutely. You've got to have a reliance or recognition of the form of the tune. If it's a 12 bar blues, you follow that form. There's also historical precedents, things like swing, things like trading passages, all that type stuff that you have to have a knowledge of. It'd be like trying to learn French without ever hearing French, you know, or hearing the dialect. So, so there's that. But there are norms as far as form goes. Of course, balance is, you know, got to be maintained. As far as dynamics on different instruments, many of them are very different. Some are amplified, some are not. They've got A balance just between the drums and the bass. You've got the softest instru. And the loudest instrument that have to play together as one. And you know, when you're working with young drummers, they always just play so loud. You know, it's. It's hard for them to even understand how soft you have to play. And then the skill comes from being creative and having the touch at that soft dynamic. Like Larry Ochiltree is a great drummer. Here he's playing. He'll be here tomorrow to play with the band. And he's fantastic. He's fantastic. He's got that light touch. He still has the drive and the sound. It's just. It's unbelievable.

B

So you mentioned the example of a saxophonist continuing a solo even though the drums and bass have completely.

C

And the piano, they just completely dropped out.

B

Right. So clearly, listening, reacting is a key part of playing jazz. What are you listening for? What kind of cues are you trying to pick up from others? Even something as little as. Not as little, but something as simple as. As volume that we just talked about. What are you listening?

C

Well, it would be the similar. It would be similar to if you were on a panel and having a discussion. Say three people are on the panel and you're talking, you're listening to what those people are saying. And then when it comes time for you to speak, you're gonna. If you're smart, you're gonna work in some of the things he said. Like. Like my. My friend here just said. I mean, that's like one of my favorite lines. Like my friend here just said, when I'm playing jazz and I'm. I'm say the saxophone players playing, and I'm going to take the next solo, I almost always start my solo with material that is related to what they did. So I'm just carrying that on. So this is a. I tell my students about this. You don't have to think of what you're going to play. Just listen to what the guy played before you and. And go off that, and it works. And you won't have to worry about what are you going to play. You're going to listen to what's happening and you're going to play off that. And that's the way to do that.

B

Let's kind of circle back toward our beginning statement. What would you say, or how would you draw these parallels between a good jazz ensemble and a good functioning democratic society?

C

Well, it would be the same thing. How does the society sound? Or how are they doing? And you know, you could judge from that. I mean, the way things are going here, I've heard the society sound better, so I, you know, there's things I. My last summer, I'm traveling and I noticed so many more road rage issues from people. I saw people get. I remember one day I saw three road rage issues. The funniest one was a. One guy stopped, got out of the car, and. And then when the other guy got out of the car, who was much bigger than him, he got back his car, drove away. I thought that was so funny. But, you know, I don't know. I mean, it's. It's a strange time. We've been through a lot, and, you know, just. Just the trust issues. Trust issues is really, I think, the biggest thing. So hopefully we could take message from that. But like I said, when I'm in a jazz group, you know, that that kind of stuff just doesn't raise its ugly head at all. Because everybody's got the same goal, which is to sound good, to make it work. Nobody is thinking I have to be the best soloist in the band. I mean, I've never thought that. Mostly because I play with such great guys. I usually am not the best solace in the band. But, yeah, it's. It's. It's never that. It's always, what is the. What is the end product of this? People are gonna say, the band sounds like, man, you guys are swinging. You guys are swinging. Meaning that we were together, we had the same emotions, the same feel, and that's what we strive for. So I wish we strive for more for that. Just things working better. Yeah.

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Chris McCurry is artist director of Jazz Ensembles trumpet here at Hillsdale College as we talk about the Jazz Constitution. Chris, thanks so much for joining us here on the Hillsdale College K12 Classical Education Podcast.

C

I enjoy myself very much. Thank you.

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I'm Scott Bertram. We invite you to like us on Facebook search for Hillsdale College K12 classical education. You also can follow us on Instagram hillsdalek12. That's hillsdalek12 on Instagram. Thank you for listening to The Hillsdale College K12 classical education podcast, part of the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. More at Podcast Hillsdale Edu or wherever you get your audio.