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Welcome to the Business of Watches, the

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Hodiki podcast where horology meets high finance and we talk to the executives driving the industry. This week we're in La Chaux de Fonds to speak with Pascal Batu, who heads both the Arnold and Son and the Angelus brands. They're both Swiss based assets owned by Japan Citizen Group and they are very different brands. Angelus is a revived historic Swiss marque known for its chronographs that won a GPHG for its chronograph Telemetre last year. Arnold and Son is a very different story, a revived take on the work of John Arnold, one of the UK's most important historical watchmakers. We talked to Baichiu about how he manages both these very different brands in today's challenging market. But first, a bit of business news. We had Richemont's full year financial results last week and they were a mixed bag. Led by Cartier, Van Van Cleef and Arpel. Richemont's jewelry division remains the main sales and profit driver for the Swiss based luxury conglomerate. We also got some insight into the watch market from the company that owns Vacheron, Constantin, Jaeger, LeCoultre and IWC. Middle east sales have been hit hard by the conflict in the region, with Overall sales dropping 3% in the fourth quarter between January and March as tourists in Dubai have abandoned the region, at least temporarily. The US though, remains defiantly strong with sales in the Americas up 17% year over year and 18% in the fourth quarter. While the Specialist Watchmakers division sales fell 4% year over year, they were up 2% in the fourth quarter at constant currencies. And the company cited strong performance from Vacheron, Jaeger, among others. Speaking of Jaeger, Richemont Chairman Johan Rupert quashed reports that the company was considering a sale of jlc. Don't believe it? Rupert told analysts and media on a conference call. So now the question is how the US market holds up if higher gas and food prices persist. We'll get more insight as Richemont reports its next sales report in the summer. And now here's our conversation with Pascal Baichu, the CEO of Arnold and Son and Angelus.

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Pascal Bechu, the CEO of Arnold and Son and Angelus. We are in La Joux Pourre. You showed us around the facilities today and we saw your operation for the first time. Thank you very much for welcoming us here.

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Thank you very much. Handy. That's a pleasure to have you here. I would like to say finally, because we know each other for Some time. And that's the first time that you come and visit us. So thank you for being with us today.

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Indeed. Yeah. We have known each other for a long time. You are a constant presence here in

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the Swiss watch industry.

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But for those who don't know Arnold and Son and Angelus, they're two brands

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and you head them both, they are

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related brands, but they are quite separate in their history and quite separate in the kind of timepieces they make. So let's start with Arnold and Son, which is the, you know, the higher end and, you know, basically a British UK brand in its origin with John Arnold. Talk about, you know, what Arnold and Son is.

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Yeah. So Arnold and Son is the oldest watch brand between the two, actually, it's even one of the oldest watch brand in the industry. The brand has been founded in 1764 in London and John Arnault is recognized as one of the greatest watchmaker, not

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only of the 18th century, but I would say globally.

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You have to put yourself back in the 18th century. Navigation back in those years were critical, especially for the British Empire, for an island being able to connect all the territories, connect the different continents, facilitate the trade. And that's the reason why the British government decided to pass the longitude act in 1714, giving a reward to whoever would be providing a technique, a solution to be able to calculate the longitude.

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And the first one was a contest.

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Yeah, it was a contest, but an

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important, very important one, very important.

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It was really strategic for the country. And the first one who did it was John Harrison and he created the H1, which is really a piece of history of watchmaking, but a very massive clock, very fragile. Took him two years to make this prototype. And as you can imagine, it's not

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something easy to move from ship to another.

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And John Arnold, approximately 30 years after, in 1770, John Arnold came with an instrument, a marine instrument of his making that was actually much more compact. So he really improved the creation of the mechanism, simplified, make it more accurate and also much easier to replicate.

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So in six months he managed to

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make 30 of those instruments. And this is giving the tone really of what has been the work of John Arnold, improving the accuracy, the reliability

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of timepieces of his time and making

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the longitude, which was an issue for the British Empire, an opportunity actually back

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in those years to dominate the oceans of the world, actually.

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And how did then John Arnold get to where we are today with Arnold and Son and this brand? I mean, you know, talk about that evolution and how it ends up as a Swiss based company Owned by Japan Citizen Group.

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So this is only one of the chapter of the very rich history of John Arnold. There's been many others. We could speak about the first chronometer made by John Arnold, The Arnold number 36 in 1779, praised as the most precise timepiece ever made. We could have speak also about this French with Abraham Lubreguet, another great watchmaker of the 18th century. But beyond all those achievements, John Arnault also had a son, actually, that happened to be trained by Mr. Breguet himself as a watchmaker, when John Arnold was doing the opposite training the son of Mr. Breguet and the son of John Arden, John Roger Arnold continued the work of his father. That's why we have not only Arnold, but Arnold and Sons. And the company stopped production around 1860 because John Roger Arnold had no children. So no continuity in the brand back in those years. And the brand came back in Switzerland in the mid-90s through a company that was called in those years British Masters. And that was the company actually that relaunched the brand, Graham and Arnold Henson. So the idea was really to bring back at the forefront British watchmaking. Everyone has to remember that watchmaking mainly happened in London and Paris before moving to Switzerland and America. And America as well. That's correct, Andy. So this company, British Masters, relaunched both brands and the manufacturer La Joux Perret decided to acquire Arnold Denson. The manufacturer was back in the late 90s and beginning of the year 2000, a supplier of the brand in terms of movement.

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Yes, and they still are today. And we are at basically the La Joux Pare manufacturer in the Chaux de Fonds. But yes, so they acquired the brand in the 1990s.

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They acquired the brand. The manufacturer itself has been acquired by Citizen Group one year after, in 2012. And pretty much as the manufacturer, La Joepire, there's a completely new management that came on board also on the brand side in 2020. And that's what you've seen over the last six years of big change and development on Arnold and Son. But Angelus as well.

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And Angelus as well. And then, yeah, I mean, let's talk about Angelus as well. You're also in charge of that brand. And how does Angelus fit into it? Elle and Angelus made big headlines last year by winning GPHG for the Chronograph Prize for its Telemetre in gold. Congratulations. But, yeah, let's talk about the evolution of Angelus and how it fits in.

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Thank you. Thank you, Andy. So Angelus, Swiss brand from the very beginning. Created in Le Loc, so very close from where we are today. Back in 1891, the brand became instantly the specialist for chronograph and repeaters. Afterwards you had additional complications that came to the stable of movement that the brand had, like alarm calendar watches, long power reserve movement. That's really the kind of mechanism for which the brand was very well known. And the brand was known for its own collection, but also for providing movements to other brands. And probably some of the most iconic collaboration were maybe with Stephanie with long power reserve movement in the 30s and

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40s through Tiffany, the famed US jewelry brand.

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Indeed Panerai, also Panerai, the first chronograph prototype, Marine Ostrom, was equipped with a movement from Angelus. But also the diving watches made for the Italian Navy were equipped with movement from Angelus. Long power reserve movement. So that's also collaboration that help developing the awareness, the fame of the brand among clients and later collectors.

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How does it end up where it is today?

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Yeah, so the brand stopped production in the late 70s during the.

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During the Quartz crisis, or the Quartz revolution, however.

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The Quartz revolution, Exactly. And the brand has been purchased by the manufacture in 2011, actually you had at the manufacturer, one of the person

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from the management that was an absolute

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passionate of Angelus brand, a big collector, and he decided to, together with the

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management of the manufacturer to purchase the

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brand and relaunch the brand.

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So 2011 is the purchase of the

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brand, but 2015 is the first year of the launch of the new timepiece from Angelus. This decision has been taken at that time only to work with Tourbillon. So they really wanted to work on the very innovative side of the brand.

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Only Tourbillon with performance materials. So playing with titanium, with carbon composite, carbon fiber being very innovative on the.

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And this was also a window of the know how of the manufacturer at

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La Joupert, of Le Jupire, obviously.

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So at that time, the relaunch of Angelus watches, they were quite innovative, quite forward thinking, quite modern, right?

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Very much, very much.

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That's not how the brand is today.

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No, the brand today. So in 2020, when the new management

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for both brands came on board, I mean, we first worked on Arnold and Sohn to redevelop the collection because I think the idea of the strategy was

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very clear on Angelus. We needed to deep more into the

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brand to get a better understanding of what were really the roots of the brand. Because the brand, how it was relaunched in 2011, 2015 was very different from the history of the brand.

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And that's the moment we decided to

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come back with one of the iconic complications of the brand, which is the chronograph.

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So first with the chrono date, which

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is a modern version of the historical timepiece from 1942, which was the first

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chronograph featuring a date and after featuring a full calendar. So in a case which is fully made of carbon composite and titanium.

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So we keep those DNA of the

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very innovative new Angelus that has been

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launched in 2015, but connecting back with one of the historical complications of the brand. So this was in 2022 watches and wonders when we launched this collection.

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And then 2023 is another milestone in the relaunch of the brand with the

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introduction of the La Fabrique collection. So the idea of La Fabrique collection

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is beyond this very modern pillar that

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we have with the Chronodate and the Tourbillon.

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It's to come with re edition of historical models. So either historical models that really existed.

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So like what we did in 2023 with the doctor's watch, really directly inspired

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from the original 1962 medical chronograph of the brand.

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And quickly, you know what made the doctor's watch, which is a chronograph, what made it the doctor's watch.

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So many, many things. So first of all, you had the pulsometer scale together with an atmometric scale.

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Yeah.

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So to calculate the rate of your

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breathing and the pulse, it was a monopusher also, which also had a function

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because the doctors has one hand to

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take the pulse, the other one to manipulate the chronograph. So easier if you have the start, stop result on the same pusher.

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So that was really what was very

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special about this timepiece, the design of

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it with an outstanding legibility also of the pulsations. And that was the first very successful

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launch of this collection and the relaunch also

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within the brand of the caliber

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Angelus 5000, which is our monopusher chronograph that has an outstanding length legacy, because that's a chronograph that is owned by our manufacturer, but that has not been developed by Angelus or manufacturer Jouperre. It's a caliber that takes his heritage from a company called Tha and three very important, yes, famous, famous watchmakers that has been afterwards modified because the original caliber was made for Cartier tortue monopoucher by Mr. Journe Flageolet and Vianney Halter.

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So just to be clear.

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Yeah.

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Vianney Halter, Denis Flageolet, Abdet Bethune and Francois Paul Jordan and Francois Paul Jordan.

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Yes.

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Of FP Jean.

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So, I mean three living legends, I would say, of watchmaking. And after there's been other variation of this monopusher of this monopusher made for some other brands. And when those three gentlemen decided to split, because each one was then in the late 90s, creating its own brand, its own business under his brand name, then the manufacturer acquired the blueprints and the rights on this movement that has been also further improved by armor manufacturer and which is now made by the. With our manufacturer. And that you have in the La Fabrique collection that you had in this medical chronograph that you had also in the Following Chapter in 2024, which was the speed instrument, instrument de Vit. So it was a one minute chronograph with the tachymeter inspired by all GT cars, dashboards. So just to speed with the tachymeter and that we have also in the telemeter. So the chronograph that won the TPHD last year in November 2025. And that was an outstanding recognition because as I explained to you, chronograph is really one of the key complications of the brand. So getting this award for a chronograph means so much for the Angelus team. For the. So that's another milestone, I would say, in the story of the brand and the relaunch of the brand, for sure.

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I mean, it's a milestone for the relaunch of Angelus, but it's also a milestone for La Joupore and for the Citizen Group, the parent owner, because that is the first GPHG that the group has won and it was Angelus. So it was quite important. Am I right? Was it important, do you think, for.

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You're very right. Handy. It was important for the team here, for the manufacturer also, that worked very, very hard on this caliber, on this timepiece with our teams. And everyone also takes a lot of pride from this award. Also in Japan with the Citizen group, with our owners. Yeah, you're right. That was a great reward for. For everyone within the group and working on the brand.

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It's also interesting to me to think about and tell me when you got involved with the brand, because it's interesting that the relaunch of Angelus was going in one direction, but it's really found success and recognition by sort of leaning into its heritage and its great history and producing watches, perhaps that recall that history a little bit. What does that tell us about relaunching and bringing back brands? Do we think so?

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I've been Fortunate to join the two brands in January 2021. So being part of the new team that has been put in place, I was at the very beginning the sales director for both brands. And it's in May 2024 that I took the helm of both of those. You know, with Angelus, we had on certain territories, and especially in the U.S. already built in almost 10 years, a first community of clients of new clients with those modern collections. And Angelus had really a very unique offering with very innovative timepieces at very strong price point. To give you an idea, even nowadays, we have skeletonized flying Tourbillon with the carbon composite titanium case, three different straps with quick release system, limited, very modern design, with each one Limited in 25 pieces. So very exclusive as well, retailing for less than 50,000 Swiss francs. You have no offering on the market with this type of product at this price point. So that's definitely a clientele that we wanted to keep. And you cannot go from one day to the other, from the modern Angelus to the La Fabrique. You have also to create face to come to this La Fabrique and vintage timepieces collection. So that's why we had also the Chrono date. And it's interesting to see that there's some markets where it's, I would say, 100% full speed on the La Fabrique collection, but you have some markets where we have really a good mix of sales between the modern and the vintage and the vintage collection. So our objective is not to leave behind all this modern DNA, but I think both can really be together. And our objective also having those two collections was to connect the new customer of Angelus together with all these old collectors of vintage pieces from Angelus that were purchasing vintage chronodates, vintage tinkler chronographs, and bring them to what is the brand nowadays through the La Fabrique collection. That was really the objective behind our strategy.

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And what kind of price range are we talking for Angelus? And can you talk about approximately how many watches you're making a year?

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We are very exclusive because the relaunch at the end is very recent. So we have a production of around 300 pieces, all limited. We have less than 25 doors worldwide, so also a very reduced network of clients. On the modern range, we have a starting price point around 23,000 Swiss francs for the Chronodate in titanium and carbon composite, which goes up to less than

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50,000 for the tourbillon skeletonized, also in titanium and carbon.

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And then on The La Fabrique everything is pretty much between 16,000 for the steel version, up to 32,000 for the

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gold versions of our La Fabrique products. So we are also positioned on the high end segments. We have small, I mean, limited production. Almost all pieces in limited editions are numbered and we end up working with, with many similar clients that we are working with for Arnold Lenson as well. So you have synergies. There's no obligation, there's no politics, that if you take one brand, you have to take the other one.

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We give lots of freedom and very

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often we start collaboration with someone with one of the two brands and they're happy of the collaboration, happy of working with us. Dynamism. We bring behind the two brands and naturally, very often the collaboration expands to the other brands as well. Yes, that's how it works with the

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success that you had with the Chronograph, with the telemetre that won the gphg, which was, I think you said to me, you certainly weren't sure it was gonna win. It was a very competitive category. So when that happens, what do you do? Is there a reaction? I mean, how do you take advantage of that? What should we expect, if anything, from that? Because it was a limited edition, basically quite small production, and they're all gone, I'm pretty sure.

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So it was interesting because the week

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following the reward, there was Dubai Watch Week happening with a presentation of all

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the watches that have been awarded inside the show, literally in front of the Angelus booth. So it was great because we could see the enthusiasm of people looking at the timepiece, coming to our booth to

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really look and wear the timepiece. Almost all pieces were already delivered by them, but not all of them were already sold through. So that was definitely the opportunity for the retailers that still had some pieces to sell them through. And it was an outstanding spotlight on the brand. That's very, very interesting.

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I have a nice anecdote about that. When we started Dubai Watch Week, of course we kept an international launch for

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Dubai Watch Week, but with the craziness

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of gbhg, et cetera, I completely forgot.

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And then on the launch, and then

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on the first day of Dubai Watch Week, I see on Instagram and et cetera, the launch of our new version of the Skeleton Ice Tourbillon. So, you know, the super modern Tourbillon orange edition. So just the complete contrast of the

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brand versus the timepiece that won the

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GPHD just a week before. And it was amazing to see this contrast. I even wondered how people would react because maybe they will Be mainly coming to see us on the booth to see the chronograph telemetre. But at the end, that has been a very successful launch as well, because customer really loved both pieces. So the same customer that maybe just a week before texted me on Instagram telling me, congrats, I love the chronograph telemate. So well deserved, et cetera. Just one week after, send me a message, wow, excellent. Beautiful. I love this timepiece as well. And it was just the proof that both universe can live together and even at the end appeal to the same customer.

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So I think what you're saying there though, is that we shouldn't necessarily expect more of the same. The brand is what it is and it has many different offerings, I guess. But I think, you know. Yeah, I don't know.

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We have definitely plans to further grow

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the global collection of the brand. When I mentioned to you at the beginning of the conversation of the historical complication of the brand, you see that there's a lot that we can bring back from our archives and definitely our objective in the future, even in the

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very short term, will be to come

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as well, with additional outstanding complications that made the fame of the brand and

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that will further nourish, as we did

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with the chronograph so far, and explain

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the beautiful heritage of this brand to

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all our collectors nowadays.

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So that sounds like we might see a repeat.

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It sounds that it could be a repeater coming soon.

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It sounds that it could be very good. Well, you have your timeline for when you release things, and indeed we'll let you stick to it. Arnold and Son is a very different brand than Angelus, but you had them both, and they're both here in the same building and manufacture. Talk about what Arnold and Son is today, what kind of watches you're making, what kind of price range you are, and then who you. Your clientele is, I think, you know, famously, last year we saw Ed Sheeran wearing one of your watches on the COVID of a magazine. So which was, you know, talk about what did that mean for the brand? Of anything. And yeah, talk about

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that was a great surprise and that was a great present that he made to us.

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So Ed Sheeran is literally a customer of the brand, a friend of the

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brand, but customer of the brand.

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He is passionate about watchmaking. He's known as a very skilled collector.

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Yes, for sure.

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And when he had the opportunity to see this constant force Trubillon that we were launching few months after, he said, immediately, as a British collector, passionate about this watchmaking, I have to get this timepiece in my collection. And he got his piece just before Watches and Wonders. And we've been surprised just before Watches and Wonders to see the issue of Forbes coming out. And with Hed, she ran wearing on the COVID the Patek and in the

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interview and the section inside the magazine

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twice is concerned for structure.

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Yes, right. Sorry, I said he was on the COVID

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He was inside the. No, no. So nowadays with Arnold and Son, we

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pay tribute to the work of John Arnold. So we have three clay pillars in the collection. One is called Astronomy. That's where we have our moon phase complication.

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So the brand is very well known

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for unique design of moon phase complication. When we speak about the perpetual moon, which has this, a huge display of the moonphase complication that takes half of the dial or the lunar Magna that was launched in 2021, which is the largest 3D rotating moon ever made into a wristwatch. Yeah, that's iconic designs. And it recalls the fact that before being driven by longitude, navigation was made with stars to calculate your latitude.

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Actually, yes.

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Second pillar is the world time.

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That's where we have especially our globetrotter, which is our multi time zone timepiece that we relaunched in 2025 with a new design, a smaller case, improved movement, better legibility. So a lot of additional features on the movement on the design side on this timepiece. And this recalled the fact that marine chronometers from John Arnauld equipped famous explorers like James Cook in 1772 during his second journey to the Pacific.

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And then we have the chronometry, which

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is the largest pillar, which obviously relates to the marine chronometers of the Arnold. So we have timepieces having display or complication that that are directly inspired from marine chronometers. So like the timepiece I'm wearing, for instance, which is the DSTB dial side. A true bit.

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Yes.

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So true bit complication comes from the marine chronometers.

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Indeed. So I see this and the seconds hand ticks along, but it's obviously a mechanical watch.

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Yes, that's a jumping second that was made for marine chronometers to be able to send them properly and also to make the reading of the time easier to calculate the longitude. And what's unique with this timepiece is that we place this complication on the top of the dial so it's not hidden at the back of the movement. So we have different collections that show the heritage of the marine chronometers from John Arnold and the Constant Force Tourbillon. That we launched last year is, I would say, almost another pillar that we are bringing for the future in the collection, which are those heritage calibres. So it's really calibres directly inspired from specific heritage Arnold caliber that existed in the 18th century. So here it was inspired by the pocket watch from John Arnault offered to Abraham ly Breguet that Mr. Breguet modified after the death of John Arnold, incorporating his first ever tourbillon and offering back this timepiece to the son of John Arnold as an homage, a tribute to the collaboration and friendship with his father. And that's a piece which is a milestone of the history of watchmaking displayed at the British Museum in London. So that's all what we wanted to explain to show in releasing such an exceptional timepiece that was closing also the 260th anniversary of John Arnold's heritage that started the year before.

A

So obviously, we're talking quite haute horology here. I mean, this is expensive stuff. What is your price range At Arnold and Son, and we were talking earlier, obviously the price of gold continues to appreciate what percentage of your pieces are in precious metals and gold, and might we change that, considering how expensive it is? Yeah.

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So our collection goes roughly from 16,000 Swiss francs as an entry price up to, I would say, 200,000. Okay. We have exceptional pieces, bespoke pieces also going up to half a million, that we are also doing with an average retail, which is around 40, 45,000 Swiss francs. So quite a high average retail price coming from the fact that it's not only the complications that we put in our timepieces that give the values to the timepiece. It's also a lot, all the craftsmanship and all the work we put on our dials on our case, because we. Almost 60% of our timepieces in volume are made, are crafted from precious metal.

A

So does that mean almost 60% of your watches are gold?

C

Basically, yes. Gold or platinum?

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Or platinum.

C

Yes, yes. So very. Yes. So a significant percentage. So it's true that the price of gold is a concern. So that's still something that we managed to cope with with a very lim increase of our prices related to gold for the year 2026.

A

But when you talk about, I mean, what kind of. Can you give, percentage wise, what kind of price increases?

C

So we applied a price increase between 2 and 5% related to precious metal. So it remains very reasonable. And then sometime we had to have some increase related to exchange rate rate, but depending the currencies. But that's. I Would say another topic as well, another concern which is the strength of the Swiss francs with obviously all our cost in Swiss francs.

A

Okay, let me put it to you this way. How much did you raise prices last year? I mean the price of gold went up by more than 60% last year and the Swiss franc appreciated by at least 10% against the US dollar.

C

So last year we made no price related to precious metal. We made different price lists for the US due to the tariffs and the variation of the exchange rate with US dollar. So I think it's the year I made the most, the highest number of price list for a single country. And then we made a price increase in September for euro price increase list of 4%.

A

Okay, and then I think if I'm understanding what you're telling me and then you're going to do a little further increase this year to reflect April 1st. Yeah, April 1st. To reflect precious metals.

C

Yes. We had no price increase over the last five years except for sometimes currency fluctuations. So in Swiss francs there were no price increase that has been made on the brand.

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I would say.

C

Yeah, I would say that's the first price increase we are doing in Swiss francs related to gold. It's coming in April, in April of this year and we really managed to keep it, I would say as low as possible because we could benefit of some reserves of gold, of precious metal that we had.

A

Yeah, interesting. So you actually had some gold reserves which is quite a handy and valuable thing at this time.

B

How long can you though hang on

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without, you know, if gold continues to increase or stay where it is, are you going to, you know, think about the kind of materials you choose for the watches in the future? And also though at the same time I think you with both brands you're. I, I think I'm right to say you're experienc sales growth at least over the last year at a time when much of the industry has been contracting.

C

So I think we'll have to play on both sides. On one side I think obviously we will have to consider other material than gold or platinum to eventually craft some of our timepieces for Arnold and Son and Angelus, but still keeping the value and the perception of our brand high. So that's things we, we have already some projects for next year. Obviously we are investigating also other other options. The other point is that the experience of the tariffs in the US has demonstrate that our brand has a good price elasticity because it's been always considered as an outstanding value for money versus competitive. So in the example of the US Even when we increase prices due to tariffs and the loss of value of the US dollar against the Swiss francs, we managed to continue to increase ourselves on the US market in a big way. I assume that the same elasticity on price could eventually apply on some gold products if in 27 the price of gold is still very high and we have to apply further price increase. So I think we'll have to consider both. And I think anyway a customer that wants a timepiece in gold and is wearing gold or is wearing platinum, he will be ready to pay the price and he knows that anyhow his timepiece is getting more value with the price of gold. So I don't probably the percentage of precious metal will lower a little bit in our assortment. But I don't see it going down like by cutting by half, you know

A

you're not going to change things dramatically.

B

A couple last things.

A

You know it's interesting. We obviously were just talking with the head of La Jeux Pourret, the movement maker which is basically we're here in the same location and it's basically they've long owned both the brands or been associated with them. They've had a lot of growth in sort of entry level movements now Solar Quartz at a completely different end of the market than you exist in. How should the market think about your reputation and your products as very high end complicated movements in pricey but value for money watches at the same time as part of a mass movement maker.

C

You're right handy saying that we always hear on all reports and that's also something that I experience with my sales statistics and meeting the customer. It's the high end segment that has been driving the sales in 24 and 25, that's clear. I could even put a threshold around 50,000. For me it's really above 50,000 retailers that things has been really extremely dynamic. I see in 25 we sold more of the high end products and maybe a bit less of our entry price level product on Arnold Denson at least I would say. On the other hand it's interesting to hear what Jean Claude again is saying for the manufacturer because we see also lots of brand having great success on much lower price points. So you see that market under 1000 is also very dynamic. You have brand names that sure will come to your mind. Some of them have been awarded at the Grand Prix d' Horloge Origeneve that are super dynamic and that are showing that with the right product, with the right story, you can make it a

D

success on this price category and I

C

see very often some customers that purchase a timepiece of 60,000, but also are happy sometime to purchase just for the weekend as a leisure timepiece. A bit like the positioning that Swatch used to have in the past, you know, to please themselves with a timepiece that will cost maybe 400, 500, 600 Swiss francs. Okay, so that's much higher than the Swatch. But we are finally at the end not so far from some of their latest release.

A

Indeed some of the swatches, 400 francs, some of them.

C

So I think you can. We have also examples of brand that has been very successful on different price category. I have also other brand that made an outstanding comeback on the price category between around 2, 3, 4,000. When I hear also some of our sister brands like Frederic Constant, they are having a good performance in a challenging environment. So everyone can get some wins whatever the category of products they are. But it's true that from what I know on Arnold and Son and Angelus, the high end has been really pushing, I think also many retailers since now I would say three years looking at the niche brand as also a great alternative for some, maybe high end mainstream brands that they lost. It also goes with the evolution of the market with a lot of collectors that are interested in something which is more exclusive and they don't want to be the one wearing the same timepiece

D

as all the other people around the table. They want something unique with a special story, with nice craftsmanship. And here we speak about the movement, but we speak a lot also about the dial about design of the timepiece coming with special stones, innovative material. And that has been also very much

C

one of our focus on Arnold Denson.

D

Of course we take. I mean the caliber should be super high end with a nice complication, a unique design. But on top you have all what's around the movement. That also is a significant part of the value of the timepiece.

A

Indeed. Yeah, there's lots of craftsmanship and different metiers that go into a piece other than the movement, which is just part of it.

B

Last thing.

A

So yeah, we're in mid March. I guess there's a war in the Middle East. Currencies continue to fluctuate, we see more inflationary pressures, things like that. How do you in a year like, like that? How do you plan for the rest of your year with so much uncertainty in the market? I mean, what do you do in terms of setting a strategy for the year with all those uncertain factors?

D

Well, I think we start being used of uncertainty, especially also in 2025 when we had those tariffs. That has been a hit in the

C

middle of Watches and Wonders. So we must remain very agile.

D

My first point is, yeah, the Middle east is an important market for our brands.

C

We hope that it will not last.

D

We hope that the change will be for the good as well.

A

Have you made any significant changes or has anything really shifted?

D

We are starting to work on scenarios to see if things are still in place in the next weeks at Watches and Wonders or for the first semester, what will be the impact and how we should handle this additional heat on our business and keep being able to develop our brands. And of course we have to do our planning as well. Expecting the worst.

C

What happened Indeed, very good, Pascal.

B

We will leave it there.

A

But thank you for joining us on the business of watches.

C

Thank you very much.

D

Andy. Thank you for your time. It was a pleasure to share with you our manufacturer. And thank you for giving us the opportunity to disclose more of our two brands to your audience.

A

And that's the business of Watches. For this episode we hope you enjoyed. Please head on over to Hodinky.com where you can join the discussion and leave any comments or questions about this episode or the business of watches in general. Who knows, we might even answer your question on a future episode. Thanks for listening and see you next time. Sam.