The Business of Watches [031] Roy Davidoff (Geneva Vintage Watch Dealer And Collector)

A

I'm recording now, but I understood that you can.

B

It was just to get, to get the levels. And I think we're where we want to be. So as I say, we're going to. We'll talk about, just a quick sort of bio, your history, who you are, what you do, how you have been in the watch industry. Then we'll talk about the Cartier watchmakers of tomorrow prize and what you did in the jury. And then we'll talk about watch fairs and Breitling going to watches and wonders and if this matters and what watch, where we are with watch fairs. And then we'll talk about collectors and what they're interested in and how the business is doing and where the trends are and how you think about the market. And then we'll be done.

A

Perfect. Perfect.

B

Excellent. Okay, here we go. Welcome to the Business of Watches, the Hodinkee podcast, where we go behind the scenes to speak to the business leaders who are making things tick. I'm your host, Andy Hoffman, and I'm in Geneva. And today I have a very special guest, Roy Davidoff, one half of the Davidoff brothers, vintage watch dealers. But Roy is, you know, really a pillar of the watch community here in Switzerland and also has deep roots in the United States. Roy Davidoff, welcome to the business of watches.

A

Thank you very much, Mr. Hoffman.

B

It's good to have you here. It's good that we're finally doing this. So we are sitting in your little shop in the old town in Geneva. But for those who don't know, I mean, you know, you are a prominent figure in the watch world, but for those who don't know, tell us how you got into watches and what you're. You've been in this industry and around this industry for quite a long time now. But how did that all come about? Where did you, where were you born? Where did you grow up? How'd you get into watches?

A

All right, very simply, I was born in Geneva, and at the age. And I started. Sorry, I was born in Geneva. I started loving watches at a very young age. I don't remember, but my family tells me that I was obsessed with watches and wristwatches. I do remember receiving the plastic Tag Heuer Formula 1 back in the day.

B

Nice.

A

I remember also receiving the first generation jelly Swatch, which I remember also losing. I remember also going to auctions with my dad for jewelry, and I would get lost in the watch section. I'm talking early 80s, mid-80s.

B

Right.

A

I remember also buying and selling swatches when I was, when I was A young kid in the late 80s and then arriving in Miami and then getting, like, summer internships, summer jobs when I was 16, packing boxes, installing straps, running on errands, and, you know, they just. They just snowballed from there. My first big opportunity actually came in the late 90s, where I worked for a jeweler and a watch dealer that were sharing a booth. But my father got me a job with that jeweler. But after a couple weeks, the jeweler realized, all right, he's okay with jewelry, but he fucking loves watches. Can I curse you?

B

You can, but, yeah. I mean, you know, we try to keep that to a minimum.

A

All right, we may have to beep that, so I'm gonna. Anyway, so my father got me a really cool job in the late 90s working for. For a jeweler that shared a space with a watch dealer. After very short amount of time, the jeweler realized that I was much better suited to work just for the watch dealer. And he was happy not to have to incur any expenses. I was just there, and my learning curve just exploded. Because before, it was like a. One by one, I would find things in the flea market when I was young and it wasn't something regular. And in the late 90s, I really started seeing hundreds and thousands of watches.

B

Right.

A

I would go to NAWCC shows, I would go to IWG shows, I would go to the antique shows. Really, you started getting. Just being exposed to all that. And it. And very quickly, you know, it. It. My passion grew.

B

Right.

A

And one of the things I wanted to do is because all my family were. I'm a fourth generation in the jewelry business.

B

Yes.

A

Actually segue to. To. To. To watches. I wanted to get my GIA the. I'm a gemologist.

B

Yes.

A

So what happened is that in 1989, I finally went to. To Gia, and then I came back to Miami again, and another watch dealers decided to hire me to expand their business from watches to also diamonds. I think that in a couple of years that I worked with them, I must have sold a handful of stones.

B

Right.

A

And I must have sold couple hundred. Couple hundred wristwatches.

B

Right.

A

So they didn't mind the fact that it didn't work out as it should have because I had good watch knowledge. They were hoping I could do 50, 50. I did 100% into watches.

B

So it became clear. Yes. That this was your specialty and this was your calling. And then, you know, you've worked for brands in the past, so.

A

Exactly. After I worked for those dealers in Miami, shout out to Matthew Bain. I Got a job in Geneva working for a modern watch company called bove. And from 2002 to 2011, that's where I was. And this is really where I understood the workmanship. Besides, you know, when you work in vintage, you meet watchmakers who repair watches, but when you work in manufacturing brands, you meet all the technicians and everybody who manufactures from the basic parts, and then the watchmakers will finish the parts and assemble them. You meet the people who are dial makers, case makers, everything. Your knowledge just. Again, my knowledge curve just exploded. That's where I met actually.

B

Okay.

A

Who now has his own brand.

B

Yes.

A

Really, really fantastic guy. We would have long conversations where I would understand and come up to him and discuss and sometimes challenge him on how to things make things better or what. Let's say, you know, when I come back from a trip, basically I would fly around the world clockwise and counterclockwise, but after a trip, I would come back and him and I, we would talk about like, oh, the market looking for this. The market is asking for that. They're doing this. This is working, is not working. And we talk about future. Future pieces.

B

Yes. Interesting, interesting. And, and, and from. And was it after Beauvais then that your. Your brother and you started the business?

A

So, yes, after Bovet, I did a stint of one year at Jacob Company.

B

Ah, yes.

A

Where I. I met a guy. Unfortunately, he passed away during. During COVID I was mentioning him earlier to another friend. I worked with him also. His name was Pierre Favre.

B

Right.

A

Who would have also fantastic conversations on how to better make watches. And, you know, I just really understood the whole process of when you would design what was existing, how to simplify, you know, longer power reserves, how to attach complications to a base movement, what to think of the, you know, the. When you have to change the barrel spring, you have to change some of the tolerances and all these things or were details which I was really interested, not because I was a watch designer or I was an engineer, just because I wanted the brands that I worked for to make better watches. And I had to go to the source, their engineers and the watchmakers on how to make better watches.

B

I mean, from that experience, I mean, what, you know, and then dealing with collectors and the public all the time. I mean, what do you think the, you know, misconceptions or misunderstandings or what is it that people don't understand about everything that goes into the business of designing, producing and selling watches?

A

So one of the key components of how, quote, unquote, expensive a watch should be is how much time goes into developing, manufacturing, decorating, assembling and testing a watch? We can go from the basic automatic from Omega. Sorry, we can go from the basic O Matic from Swatch. Even for me, this is the cheapest Swiss automatic movement all the way up to, you know, watches that are made by, handmade, by Recep and his team, or by Philippe Dufour, or by, you know, Hazman, Mona, Peter, Men Beda. Also the engineers, like, engineers like Simon Brett.

B

Sure.

A

That do really well. Also you have Sylvain, Bernard. They all make fantastic, fantastic pieces, but they all have different approaches. So it's interesting when you say, okay, I know how much. How much time it costs to machine this. I know how much time, how it's complicated to source the metal, how much loss you have. And then today, some of the techniques which are more difficult, less difficult, more archaic, more handmade, more machine made, how long it takes when you can have just a guide to do the finishing, or when you use it freehand. All the details. When you look at independent watchmakers, you have to take into consideration, did it take him 10 hours to decorate that bridge? Did it take him 100 hours to decorate that bridge? How much is an hour for a watchmaker? All these details have to come into play. When you look at some watches where watchmakers or brands took obvious shortcuts, you understand it's going to be a 30k watch. And then when you see a watch where they obviously took no shortcuts, for example, Biver watches, you look at the watches, you look at parts you'll never see unless you go through the manufacturing process and you see the part in your hands. Solid gold bridges that are decorated the most, they're decorated to the utmost. And for me, this passion of mine of understanding all this helps me see things with a new eye. It's the same thing. Why? You know, being a gemologist, I understand watches with gem setting. Also, all the. Also being a big fan, for example, of Cartier mma, all these handcrafts.

B

Yes.

A

For me, I'm a huge fan and I understand that, for example, you see some brands, they'll do cloisonne or miniature painting, and you see a certain budget and you see other brands do cloisonnet and the miniature painting and it's a different budget. Understanding the lack of industrial process behind it and understanding how the industrial process helps them do it better.

B

We'll talk more about Cartier in a moment and your role with them in terms of serving on the jury with their young watchmakers prize. But it's interesting. You talked about a lot of independent watchmakers and everything that's involved in terms of designing and producing a watch. And when I, but when I, you know, first came across the Davidoff brothers, you know, I thought you guys were the most important Omega Speedmaster dealers in the world, basically. And, and, and you know, and when I think about a brand like Omega or obviously you also deal in lots of Rolex and other big brands. You know, I think about industrial production at a large scale. What's it, I mean, you know, where are you? And then, you know, we talked about Cartier, which makes a heck of a lot of watches. Where are you now? What's interesting to you in the watch world? And are you still compelled and interested by those volume manufacture brands?

A

So other than collecting some of these modern watch brands today in vintage, we've, we've split off a little bit of doing just Speedmasters. It's a very. We started with Speedmasters even before the company was founded because I was a fan of Speedmasters because I received my father's 1970 Mark 2 with a racing dial that he bought down the street at a store that used to be called Collette.

B

Yes.

A

I also have my father's father, my grandfather, his C case Seamaster that he bought at the Same Store in 1970 when they visited Geneva before my father knew he was going to move here.

B

Wow.

A

My father found out he was going to move here in 1975 when he got engaged and then later that year married to my mom. Before that, it wasn't the plan. He was in Italy and he was very happy living there. For me, the contrasts when I speak about independence and when I speak about modern watch brands is that again, when you see, let's say Daytona with the retail of it, I don't speak about speculations and hype. And when you see certain watches that are listed for 400,000 at some brand and then they sell in the secondary market for 200k or you see 100k watch that sells for 500k. That's not the question here. It's not about, about the collectible value. Like basically sneaker heads that buy sneakers for 200 bucks and sell them for 5,000, no one cares. This is, this is what I'm talking about. I mean, no one cares. This isn't the subject. The subject is more my why, why my passion and what I understand.

B

Yes.

A

So when you have a certain budget, which is a probably discussion for a different day, what to buy at, what budget. It's very interesting. The Size that I do quite often. And this is what I do for vintage watches. And this is what brought us to my brother and I opening, wanting to open the company. Then open the company. Is that we saw. Oh, sorry.

B

No problem.

A

I'm going to double. Come on. I don't know why I did that. I was thinking of doing that before, but I'm doing that now.

B

Now you, now you will put it on silent.

A

Yeah, but it is, it is on silence. But my, my laptop isn't on silence.

B

I see.

A

Of course my laptop isn't silent. Okay, now it's on silence.

B

So, yeah, you were, you were making this nice point though, about, you know, how you value things and, and, and how I understand.

A

How I understand the value of things. How would the, the, how it's made and all these things which are quite important today. Anyways, so the point of that is, this is how my brother and I got started. We saw that, let's say we would buy. We decided to start a company. My brother sold off his watches. I was able to find money from friends and family to lend us to start the company. And we're like, what do we do with this money? We have to buy smartly and sell smartly the smartest way possible. I know smartly is actually a word, but anyways, it is. Okay, perfect. The point being, The point. The, the point being is that when we started that, we were like, listen, there's a, there's a lack in value of Speedmasters in the market.

B

Right? You saw, you saw, we saw that.

A

Yeah, yeah, you stop buying for $1500, you can buy an 861 from the 70s, 80s, 90s and then sell it for 3k, we double your money. Or you could buy a Daytona for 20k and sell it for 22k and make 10%. So we were like, all right, we're not going to concentrate on what everybody else is doing. We're going to concentrate on Speed Masters. And we, after it snowballed so quickly. When you have like 50 speedmasters that come through your hand and just a couple of months from early 60s to mid-90s, you really understand it. And most collectors see maybe in a lifetime what we would see per month, literally per month. We at some point had probably nicer collections than the Omega Museum has at some point.

B

Right?

A

But you know, there's all these things is that it was really crazy. You would, we would. It just. We started on the, on the, on Instagram and Omega forums and then from word of mouth and still Today, you know, 13 years down the line, people are like, oh, you're the Speedmaster experts. So we're still specialized in Speedmasters. We still know how to recognize a proper one or assembled one or whatever. We still. We can still source. So we still have some crazy pieces in our collection. But we moved on after the fiasco that happened and the market just hasn't recovered yet. We decided to really quickly when we saw that.

B

And what you're talking about is the scandal involving the sale of a Speedmaster. Remind me the reference.

A

It was a 2915 that had been enhanced and assembled.

B

Yes. Some alleged it was a Franken watch. Obviously, this was a scandal that involved a watch sold by Phillips. It ended up encompassing people from the Omega museum and from the manufacturer. The entire industry and collector industry came to look at Omega Speedmasters in a different way. And, yeah, that whole situation still hasn't been resolved legally. I believe that investigation is continuing. Quickly, talk about, I mean, what did that do to the market? Speedmaster market, Venture Speedmaster market. And where are we now, do you think?

A

And, yeah, so we definitely haven't recovered. And basically it gave people less trust in vintage Speedmasters. We still sold for three, four years really nice Speedmasters. But all the big clients are gone. They moved on to other things. They moved on to independence. They moved on to other Pateks. Other. Sorry, other. They moved on to other brands like Patek, Cartier, Vacheron. Cartier. Exactly. And it was also a created domino effect where also like 1950s and 60s Rolexes are much slower today. All the really collectible Heuers and Breitlings are also much slower. So it's not just Omega. Omega was kind of like. It kind of like started it. And then everybody saw that, like, you know, when you buy, for example, when you buy, for example, you go in the store and you buy Patek Philippe. There's no question if it's real or fake at a retailer or at Patek Philippe themselves. Or would you buy a more recent one? You can. You can walk into the Patek Philippe boutique and give it to a watchmaker and be like, is this all correct? I mean, if there's an issue, they might confiscate it. So don't do that if you think it's wrong, but if you know it's correct. We just want to be sure. You can bring your Rolex, for example, to Rolex. And they. They're not going to give you a document saying that it's correct. But if you give it in for service or for something, you know, it they, they'll, they'll, they'll confirm Cartier also if they, if something has been messed with the Cartier and you send in for service, not the really, really old and really rare pieces from the 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s and maybe 60s, but like the more recent ones. There's no question about the originality of these pieces. And today clients don't want stories, don't want to wait. They want to buy something they know is correct.

B

And the problem is that you know, this, the issue is with validation and you know, extracts from the archives. I mean it involved Omega itself and you know, people who worked in that department. So indeed there was certainly some trust that was lost when, today, when you, as you say, people have moved on, we're seeing extreme interest in Cartier, in lots of Patek and then in particular in some independents like Journe. Given your experience in history and that you've been through cycles in markets, you know, how do you look at these sort of shifts and cycles?

A

So it's, it's, it's not a replacement, like not Cartier hasn't replaced all the sports models in the market. It's just there's a shift away from sports models. There's still sports models. Collectors who like come in and be like, I want to Hoyer Otavia first generation because I love this watch because of XYZ reason. Still people who want to buy Speedmasters2998 still people who want to buy, you know, a nice 70s, 80s, 90s piece, a birth year piece, they're still interested in these watches. It's just that the bigger money people, the bigger money and investment or collectors want to shift to something where again the story is much less. If someone is showing you I don't know what should be half million dollar, half million year vintage watch that you don't know what happened to the watch or a half million dollar Journe that worst case scenario sent into Journe for six months to be fixed. That's really the worst case scenario. If something happens to, you know, the moon phase doesn't click or the big data, whatever, it's, it's a fixable issue. You know, the independent watchmakers, you have to understand that they didn't make industrial watches like Rolex does. They made 99% of the stuff is done, designed, done, assembled, prototyped by hand. And you know, you work out some of the kinks over the years. So it just, people came to trust that brand. And then when you understand that some independent brands still make thousands of watches, it's a bit more. It's a bit less sexy. But when you know that they're only going to make 900 watches a year and they're only going to sell through their retail locations and that it is. Whether you bought one from 2004 or 2026, it is recognizable as a Journe. Where it's important because when you look at certain brands in certain models, even in. For example, I'll go back to Cartier quickly. All the. The Cartiers, even if the models evolve, for example, someone with a Santos Santos 100, the case changed a little bit. The Santos Galbe, the Santos Carre, all the different Santos, the ones not the dress watch one, the more sporty ones, they've evolved over the years. But it still basically looks like the same watch. The same feeling look is there. Journe feels like it. It hasn't aged. People are appreciating it and it hasn't aged.

B

You.

A

You cannot by looking at the watch unless you're like the world's foremost expert. And you know that this particular black dial was only made once in 2012. You can't tell what year the watch is from.

B

Yep. And you can also spot a journey too.

A

Yes. And it's legibleizable and it's undateable.

B

Yeah. So that's interesting.

A

It makes it that you don't care if it's a 2026 or 2002, it's a journey. And that's one of the biggest strengths in wristwatches is that today you have brands that like, they come up with a 2026 model that looks like a different brand or universe or even century than a 2020 watch. Six years difference. And there's no commonality. And that was. That's one of the. My biggest issues I have with some of the. Some of the brands today is that, that there's no, there's no, there's no commonality. You, you have two watches from the same brand that don't. They're not. That don't know each other.

B

Interesting.

A

And, and, and for me, as a, as a collector and one of some of my clients, they asked me, oh, what should I buy? What should this. I'm like, I try to tell them, try to do the this. And then when brands evolve their pieces. The one from five years ago is now has been. And nobody wants it. That's why, you know, if you think of like the Royal Oak, whether the hype. No hype. But today some people, some people come in to buy a rare look, especially the jumbo model. If it's from first batch in 70s, if it's from 90s, if it's from 2000s, 2010s, 20s, if it's 15, 2, 16 to. It looks the same.

B

Yeah. I mean, there are subtle differences, but indeed it's. That it is.

A

On the wrist, it's super difficult to tell the difference. And that's what's, that's what's nice about it. Cartier, you can tell the difference, but not the same budget. But for example, when you have certain, certain pieces from Cartier, it's very. It's a lot of fun because on the dials, which, which when you become Speedmaster experts like my brother and I, you can tell the dial is like, this was only made, like early 68. Or you could tell this is only done, like in 64, like a specific year. Like, basically the dial went from being stepped to no step to rounded to the asymmetric T to symmetric T's. Like, all these little details tells you what year, what batches of year this watch was made. And then it goes from, like, matte finish to slightly glossy, the Omega from overload to not overload applied. All these little things that, that, that you hear collectors say that you can date the watch.

B

Yeah.

A

But that's really, like, nerdy collector. But today people are collectors, but with a bit of a spect. Speculator heart.

B

Sure.

A

So it changed, it changed the game to where they don't want to have something that they were like, oh, I want. How did I know this dial was born in this watch. Yeah.

B

So there is, there's, there's trust issues and so people are looking for consistency. It was really interesting the way you're talking about how you think the market views Journe, that a Journe from 2004 can, quickly looking at it on the wrist can be identified as a Journe, but can't tell if it's from 2004 or 2024. That is interesting. Where do you see. I don't know if you want to talk specific brands or just catego. And, you know, you talked about how one of the reasons you ended up becoming specialists in Speedmasters was because you saw the value and the margin that was available there. Where do you see value in the market right now, if anywhere?

A

So, for example, one of the brands that I really. One of the. Actually the multiple brands that I really enjoy selling, for me is the Holy Trinity. Long ago.

B

Vacheron, Audemars, Piguet and Patek Philippe.

A

Exactly. Long ago. I heard, I read an article from a journalist that said, Vacheron is the king that was. Paddock is a king that is. And Ottomar is the prince. I'll never be king. So it's really funny when I see that because you feel like in the, like in the. The sweet spot of like the 70s, 80s and 90s, they made such. All three brands made such great watches. And this is what we're selling the most of today. Even if a watch was made in like early 2000s, it is still. There was still a watch designed in the 90s and it's. It's for us. You know, when you see like an ellipse for like 20, 25,000, when you see Calatrava from 10 to 15,000. When you see a perpetual calendar that isn't the 3,000, 940 that today the prices have gone nuts because people finally understood what a great watch it is and are willing to pay for it because it is one of the icons of the 20th century when it comes to complications. It's really, really, it's. It's a must. When you see, for example, we. We just sold the tonneau shaped. We have another one coming in with the cloud Paris. You have a super popular engine from Patek Philippe, but they made so many other iterations and all these other iterations that didn't get so much love in the last 20, 30 years. All of a sudden people are like, oh, it's the same engine, right? And people are like, I, I should, I should. This is something I should invest in or I should buy, I should have in my collection because I can't spend 80,000, but I can't spend 40,000.

B

So people are starting to move. You know, Everybody may know 15, 18 and 24, 99, 39, 70, as you say. But they're starting to explore the other references.

A

The simpler perpetual calendars without the chronograph. You mentioned all the chronograph perpetual calendars. And you see that the paddock is going up. And then who else made great perpetual ap. Where the perpetual. Actually what I've heard many times people say is that the perpetual calendar at Audemars Piguet Saved brand where they made the fantastically made one of the. One of the best integrated modules into the royal oak where the case middle is the same thickness as the time only. And then they hid all the complication inside the bezel by make it a little thicker. But when you look at on your wrist the bezel, nobody notices if it's like. Like the sea dweller in the submariner. The Sea Dweller is a much thicker bezel, but you don't notice it's well designed. So that's what it did with the, the Royal Oaks. Speaking specifically of the reference 5202 which is the time only and the 5554 which is the perpetual calendar. They hid all the, all the mechanism inside the bezel and thickness. So AP was fantastic. You had also, at the same time you had Vacheron making also their own in house perpetual calendar that was also incredible. Using the same Bass Jaeger automatic movement as Patek Philippe, as AP and as Vacheron. Sorry, as. Yeah, sorry, Vacheron. I said it before. So Vacheron made a really nice perpetual calendar. And what's really fun is that brands like AP and Vacheron made them skeleton, they made them bezels with the gem sets, they did different types of bracelets and AP even did like one of the world's smallest automatic perpetual calendars in 30 millimeters. They made a special edition in 33 millimeters in platinum that was manual beautiful perpetual, same module as the automatic that you can find whether time only or in Royal oak case, which is such a, such a, such a cute and great little wristwatch. Not to forget to mention as well Breguet, Breguet also did some incredible perpetual calendars. So you have also a lot of brands on the side that did some, some really nice stuff. But really Patek, ap, Vacheron and Breguet are like the best in that area for late 70s, 80s and 90s.

B

And so that's where you see the collector interest. But are you also saying though that people are discovering value there, are seeking value there? Underappreciated.

A

It's underappreciated. You get an old, I mean underappreciated. Today people are asking crazy prices, prices, really crazy prices. But the fact remains that there's still value in there.

B

Are there any, you know, other sort of mainstream vintage and neo vintage pieces, brands, categories? I mean, yeah, it's, it's quite interesting and, and you're quite specific in terms of that holy trinity and, and add Breguet in there and, and maybe a few other names. But yeah, I mean, you know, vintage, vintage Heuer Omega, you know, are there any brands like that you think that are due for a resurgence or a return in interest and then, and then Cartier is a whole separate story.

A

Which Cartier is a separate story. Markets are cyclical. I for sure know that in a couple of years people are going to start having their journey again collecting all the icons of Heuer, the Ottavias, the Carreras, the original, the Monaco's. We saw one of the last Monacoes

B

from, from Le Mans that Steve was on.

A

Steve McQueen's release from the movie Le Mans.

B

Right, exactly.

A

The last prop watches were watches that were used in the Le Mans movie. Went up for auction.

B

Yeah. Didn't do as well as hoped.

A

It's okay. It's the one up for auction. It was, it was seen. There was some documentation about it.

B

It was very, the provenance was very strong.

A

Yeah, that's really, really cool. You have also in Breitling, which is, which is. But these are more. You realize that they made thousands of them. Like you know, if people, people tell like a 1518, they made 258 or 250 something. Yes, that's it.

B

Yeah.

A

So you know that this is a finite number and that's all you're gonna, that's all ever made. And then there's different variations. But like other brands they made like they made like a thousand or thousands with like a first generation, then like 10,000 second generation. This was more mainstream. So again, if you understand. And then for example, a Patek Philippe, you take it to the, to the shop where you have your watchmaker, open it, you send it for archives, they tell you what's correct. It was born with this, this white dial or this silver dial, this black dial or this whatever color dial it was, yellow, gold, rose gold. It gives you all the information. The other brands, you can't tell if the dial was changed, you can't tell if parts were swapped. As a regular collector, they come to people like us and many of the dealers that in our network that we work with to check or to buy without having to worry about it. Today, for example, I was speaking with a dear friend from a Geneva based brand and he tells people, he goes, it's not always good to find cheapy watches at these like little known auctions because when you have the watch in your hands and it's going to cost you like 3k to repair the watch, you saved a thousand bucks compared to a dealer. But then you're 2,000 bucks on hold because most dealers should provide a warranty and the watch has already been cleaned, it's been checked. The watchmaker, like every watch that we get, for example, we have it checked either Patek, we order in archives and every other brand, we check with the brand, right? We have our watchmaker, open it, check it, time it, all the numbers matches, everything is on the.

B

But we can't do this. Yeah. I mean, but we can't do this with every brand and obviously, you know, we nearly can.

A

Really?

B

Well, talk to me about, you know, Rolex and cpo. And as a vintage dealer, I mean, you know, I don't think I've ever heard you articulate, you know, what Rolex CPO means for the market and how it's changed things and how we should think about it.

A

Very simply, Rolex saw how well dealers are doing. We might be known, but we're still not that big. But you have some dealers that move like thousands of Rolexes a month. It's crazy. And Rolex, like, why can't we do that? And I see how much they're asking for their CPOs compared to regular watches. But regardless if there are service parts, you are sure that they were installed by Rolex.

B

Right.

A

So it gives you this additional trust. But it takes away from the originality that we like. For example, when you buy a vintage car, you don't want, you want to buy a car that has like 10, 20,000 miles. You don't want to buy a car that has 200,000 miles because if it's 200,000 miles, you understand that everything is tired and if something breaks, something else will break after. But if you buy a low mileage car, you have a lot less trouble. Just change the oil and if it wasn't crashed, you're good to go for another 10, 20 years. This is really difference with vintage wristwatches. When you buy something that hasn't been abused, you can get a long life out of it. But if you buy a watch that has like, you can notice see that it has like 300,000 miles or 400,000 miles, you know that it's funny when I see people that bring watches like Speedmasters in for service and they come back with like a baggie with like a hundred parts inside and I'm like, what happened to your watch? And they're like, they had to change everything because everything was tired. Compared to like you bring a watch that's like super clean, never been serviced. They'll, they'll, they'll throw in there like maybe the hands because they were stuck and then like one wheel and one gasket. So you know that they didn't change anything.

B

Yeah.

A

So this is, this is why we try to. Every watch we buy, we try to buy a low mileage timepiece. That's anyways.

B

Yeah. And you know, I just saw you this week at, in, in Le Chaux de Fond Neuchatel. At the Cartier Young Watchmakers Prize, which was taking place. You were on the jury, you were a judge. Tell us about that process. And, and this whole prize and, and you know, where we are in terms of, you know, young people and being interested in watches and, and, and learning the profession and learning the skill.

A

So the funny thing I want to say now is not funny. The thing I want to say now is that young people are the future.

B

Are you saying children are the future?

A

Young people of the future, children are just. There's something else. No. Point being is when you see. Anyways, I had the opportunity now 20, 24, I was approached by somebody that works for Cartier, became a dear friend as well. He's like, oh, we're doing this Cartier prize, blah, blah. Would you like to be a member of the jury? And I was like, I don't know what this is, but yes. And then I got to the first jury meeting and here you had Carrie Voutilainen, Pascal Ratsu, which I knew quite

B

well from the fhh. Yes.

A

Natalie Marianoni, who's associate curator of the Emi Ash Museum. Yeah. Museum of Horology. And Pascal Le Peu, who's in charge of the Cardi collection for Katie. And then me, I was like, what about, what the hell am I doing here? I'm like, other than being very opinionated, I'm like, I don't know what I'm doing here, but it was a lot of fun. So we meet all these young. You know, there was, there's, there's two different.

B

Yeah, there's a, there's apprentices and technicians. There's two categories.

A

And what's really fantastic is to see with the limited, limited amount of time

B

that they have, 80 hours, I think 85 hours to actually, you know, produce

A

the piece and the limited budget that they have, I find that to be mind blowing. What they're able to produce. Some of them, I was like, I wish I was able to give the price to like, not just one, like many of them. Because as I come from the manufacturing background, I understand how difficult it is to do multi medium things. You know, when you see a watch today, that's a complication. That's gem set, that's enamel, that's from a high end. Finishing on the movement and skeletonized. All these things separately are amazing. And having two, three, four or five of them is really top. It's really the best thing in the world.

B

And this usually means. And there's several different artisans that have done each of those facets.

A

Exactly. And in some of these cases, these kids have done the whole thing. Sometimes you know the term. Yeah.

B

This is the way we describe the various facet suppliers, component makers of the industry and how it all comes together.

A

Exactly. So some of these kids, what they do is actually quite good, is that they also, they're able to be like, oh, my father works with marble and is able to do a marble part of the clock I can put inside. He goes, oh, my friend knows how to do 3D printing. She can 3D print A. She can 3D print some parts. And then all my friends are jeweler and she can make me like gem set little things. And like all my friend is this. And I'll. And it's, it's quite fascinating. Somebody had the vitro. It's called the like what you have in churches. The, the windows.

B

Ah, stained glass.

A

Stained glass. So one guy did basically did like a stained glass clock that was floating in the shape of a crash from Cartier. I was like, this is, this is crazy. And I was like, ah, I think. I wish, you know, I mean it was really, really cool. And then they're, they're. And they're like, oh, I know somebody who does that.

B

Right. So that, and that mirrors the, the.

A

So while they're working on one part of the project, they have somebody else working on that one. So it basically like. And, and this skill of being able to be like, okay, I can do this by myself, but I'm gonna need the help. For abcd, it's like Hazmat Mona, Hazmat Monon, for example, they can produce the parts, they can decorate the part, they can assemble, regulate the parts to make. Sorry. To make their, their watches, but the cases, they leave it to somebody else.

B

Exactly.

A

Yeah, that's.

B

And then almost nobody does everything. I mean, even Rolex doesn't do everything.

A

So that's a, that's a, that's a. They, they. They're very often financially invested into their suppliers. Yes, they are not. It's, it's a, it's. It's. So you could say that they do everything. It's like Kari Karinan, he owns the whole process. Movement, dial, case, Red Chep. He owns the whole process.

B

Yeah, pretty much.

A

I mean he's an enamel. Enamel. He's a case maker, strap maker now. Strap maker now. You know, so he. This is, and this is. What's so beautiful about the industry is you're gonna have certain people say, I know how to make movements. I'm gonna make the movements and decorate them. The best way Possible. And then other ones are like, I don't like how this case was made. I'm gonna figure out how to make the best cases. And then in the case of Recep, pun intended, he was able to take out a retirement.

B

Yes.

A

Hagman.

B

Yes.

A

Give him a fifth or sixth career.

B

Yeah, yeah.

A

And he was able to, to, to pass on the case making knowledge.

B

Yes, yes, yes.

A

And now that's what they're doing. Basically. He was able to create a physical legacy for the best case maker of the 20th century.

B

Interesting.

A

Quarter century after he retired.

B

Yes. And he brought him back. And now obviously his most recent piece, they made the case, but it's not, you know, Mr. Hagman died last year, I guess it was. And indeed that, you know, that that knowledge has been, has been passed on.

A

But this is so important. You know the thing, I remember when Jean Claude Biver took over Hublot and wanted to bring it up in quality, they weren't enough watchmakers. So his idea was to take watchmakers out of retirement. And I'm like, that is brilliant. Did you know about that?

B

I did not.

A

Ah. He took watchmakers out of retirement because they had the knowledge and they're sitting at home twining the thumbs.

B

Right.

A

So it's, this is, you know, at the same time we're speaking about young watchmakers who are either going to do everything by themselves and whether they're apprentices or technicians and they have the knowledge, skill, or they know where the skills are, which is a skill itself. It's very interesting when you see that, like they're 17, 18, 19, 20 years old. When I was 20, I knew how to sell watches. I knew where to go clubbing and my mom did my laundry. And they're. And technically they're like reinventing the way we see time. They're thinking outside the box. They're seeing what has been done and they're like, okay, I saw this and I want to bring the time back. So I'm going to change the gear to gear train and make my watch go backwards, even though it has been done. But usually these brands spend like 18 months in R and D and they did it in 80 hours.

B

Yeah, no, it was really interesting. I mean, the prompt, I guess, you know, one of the prompts was to consider you different ways of telling the time.

A

The exact prompt was changing the balance, reading and understanding time differently.

B

Yes.

A

So that's one of the reasons why one person won first prize and that's one reason why the person didn't win first prize. But some of the Skills and the multimedia skills, again, I'm repeating was just.

B

Yeah, no, I was impressed. It was, it was, you know, my first exposure and the actual prize has been around for 28 years. They've, you know, and Koch has been quite, hasn't, you know, really communicated.

A

But they're, they're now, they're stepping it

B

up and now they, I really feel

A

they're stepping it up. And next year they're also going to do it with jewelry.

B

Yes, yes, they are. Which is, which is obviously you know, a key element of that maison. It's, you know, it's, it's. They are a jewelry maker and where, you know, considering how long you've been around these two, we're talking about young watchmakers who are learning the skills and developing ways to express themselves and ideas through those skills. What is your sense of where watchmaking is in the culture as a whole? I mean the auctioneers talk about how much bigger the market is. I mean, obviously there was the COVID 19 and post Covid era where everybody in the world seemed to be interested in watches. But you know, where are we with watch making and watches in culture and what's your outlook for the future?

A

Watchmaking as in all the new watchmakers. Speaking about people like Hazmat Mano, those type of watchmakers.

B

Sure. Or just, just in where watchmaking is in, you know, the public consciousness in terms of, you know, are there more young people interested in watches these days than there used to be? Everyone says that is they are, there are.

A

But tell me so I'm going to tell you. I had an apprentice that was 14, 15 years old. His great grandfather and grandfather worked with my grandfather and father. I actually know his uncle, his mom's brother from when I was young and we started talking and I was like, come have a do an internship with us. And then at the same time people tell me, oh, young kids don't care about wristwatches anymore. And I was like, how wrong you are. I remember when I used to wear a panerai in the late 90s, which was cool. $800 for was like one of the, it was a single digit Pam tritium dial. People were like, I, I don't know what the sandwich this is like. And I was, and I lived in an affluent circle and didn't understand what it was. Fathers, people and adults had 1, 2, 3 watches. Today, when you, when you, when you come in an affluent area, if you become, if you have a watch, some of these people have like 50, 100 watches. It is not 10 times more. It's sometimes 50 times more than it used to be. It's, it's. And you see these, this younger generation that they see, you know, I remember you would see like the Bill Gates wearing like the cheapy Casio and you would see like leadership enterprise wearing like regular watch.

B

And Clinton wore a knife. Iron Man. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

A

They would wear like a basic watch for like 10 years. The watch would look the same. And then you see like the new, the second generation leaders of enterprise. And then all the leading men on, on tv, old school leading men again, you could see them wearing like their one or two or maybe three watches. You know, you would say like, you know, when you think of like Paul Newman, for example.

B

Sure. Rather famous in the watch world.

A

Very famous in the watch world. How many watches do you see him wearing?

B

There's a few, but not that many. You know, maybe with our. Maybe 10.

A

I think if you can get to 10, you're lucky.

B

Yeah.

A

I mean, you know, Steve McQueen, how many watches did he wear?

B

We think maybe is it four or five? Yeah.

A

Under 10 again.

B

Yeah.

A

Today, every time you see a picture of Timothee Chalamet on, on anything, he's wearing either an ultra modern watch, a vintage or modern urban Jensen, or a different version of the crash. You see these people, you know, they're, they're. I, I see sometimes I have clients and friends that collect all across the board and every six months they're buying themselves another Jacob watch. Because my friend works for Jacob, so she's always telling me like, oh, he bought that, you know, like because on the Instagram that she shows me. But he also buys everything else. Right. You know, you see, I have, it's really become. For example, how many watches do you have, Andy?

B

Well, that's, that's a very personal question. But I have, I've, I've at least 40 or 50 watches. Yeah, yeah.

A

And someone, a journalist, let's say you're in the watch business, but it's different. But let's say 40 years ago, how many watches would you had?

B

Well, it would have been like how many watches I had before I started covering watches, which is two.

A

Yeah. So I grew up again, I grew up keeping. I had like, I had like my, my family quote unquote watches.

B

Yeah.

A

And then I always had like two, three watches. And then today it's like every time I'm like, okay, this watch can hold 20 watches. As soon as this watches watch box is full, I stopping to collect and then I just buy more watch boxes.

B

Last thing. I mean we're talking about young people, we're talking about the future of the industry. You deal in, you know, high end luxury vintage and neo vintage watches. But what, what's your sense of how the industry can succeed and how it should, you know, go forward in watches being approachably priced and you know, still being objects of desire, you know, for example, I would love to hear your take on the royal Pop. The Audemars Piguet by Swatch collaboration. Yeah. I mean, how does the industry deal with, you know, prices and affordability?

A

Can I tell you something funny? When the Moonswatch came out, everybody and their mother had one on the wrist. I remember I still, I basically gave away half the ones I have. I only kept either the snoopies or the blue ones. Everything else is gone. Gifts, right. My little cousins are very happy and other friends as well. A friend comes over and she's like, oh, it's really cute. I'm like, know you here gift. I'm like, I don't, I'm not going to wear it. I don't have time to sell it. I don't care. Point being, I've never seen a royal Pop in the wild.

B

I have yet to see one as well. In the wild.

A

I've seen one, but yeah, no, no, I've seen them at the shop in the display. I have never seen one in the

B

wild, but is that be. But where would you see it? I don't because you don't wear it on the wrist.

A

So I was really excited because Swatch teased us really well. They put lanyard, they put the click and they put the pattern of the royal oak dial and they said the royal Pop or the royal whatever or pop whatever. They used it and I was like, oh, it's going to be like a charm. And I had my bag right there and I was looking forward to having a, the blue one to put out on my, on my briefcase.

B

Right.

A

And I don't care, I don't need it did not make a difference. But I've again, I've yet to see one. The Blancpain came out. I would see them in the wild.

B

50 fathoms.

A

Yeah, yeah, the 50 fathoms. I would, I see them all the little dragons and all that stuff. The, the, the, the sea creatures from the different oceans and I still see them in the wild. Yeah, I have yet to see a royal pop in wild. So for me, other than.

B

We certainly saw that. We certainly saw that. What happened on the day when they went on sale though?

A

Yes, but it Was a hundred percent speculators on the first day. Collectors don't behave that way. There is always like a code of respect or whatever you call it. And for me it's. It's a. It's not negative. It's not positive. It just is. People always ask me like, oh, do you want to sell your Royal Oak? Now that they came there without. I'm like, listen, if they had made a bracelet watch, I'd be pissed. But I knew they weren't, so I wasn't pissed at any time I want one. And that's where it ends. That's that. There isn't anything more than that. It's a collab like they did with the museum. It's a collab like they did with Snoopy, with the. Keith Haring, with. You know, I'm a big fan, for example, of Chagall. One of my good friends is also. So I got her for her birthday, I got her the Chagall one one. You know, it's like another friend, he likes Basquiat. So I got him the sets from Basquiat. You know, it's. It's all these things are. It's just Swatch just. Just does collabs because that's one of their core businesses is collabs. It just this collab. People felt it was weird. But the pop Swatch I used to have in the 80s and I loved it. I used to wear it on my. Clipped on my T shirts. I know how many holes I put on those. But. But again, it doesn't. You know, it's not like there isn't a. For me, anybody who sees a negative impact is looking for something negative.

B

Right.

A

They're not. I like to. I have very strong opinions about things and sometimes there'll be like a strong and sound negative. But I'm always going to try to find the good first.

B

Sure. So what, you know, other than Swatch and a Swatch collab that speaks to someone, I mean, what's your recommendation for somebody's first watch? Say sub thousand francs or dollars?

A

All right, we're gonna play that game, but we're gonna play to the end. So my favorite one of my. Actually one of my. One of my. Because there's multiple of them. Favorite sub 1000 watch I love. My favorite one's gonna be the PRX Tissot PRX.

B

Great watch.

A

Which I basically wore probably a dozen times. Showing up to ap, showing them this dial is better than your dial. While owning already two Royal Oaks with the same blue dial.

B

Interesting.

A

Until I sold it to a friend who wanted to have an access watch. And I was like, I don't wear, I have too many watches to wear. So I started selling off all the little ones. Another watch is Fiorla Marie. The make, of course. Fantastic watch.

B

Great watch.

A

Sub 1000.

B

Great young guy.

A

Baltic.

B

Yeah.

A

Fun watches.

B

Yeah.

A

I really prefer from the earlier ones. Now they're, they have to, they have to grow so they have to do things.

B

Yeah. And they're getting a little more, you know, there's, there's not a lot under that in. Under that Thousand.

A

They're alone.

B

Yeah.

A

Sub 2000.

B

Sub 2000.

A

Tell me Sub 2000, my absolute favorite brand this last three or four years has been Raymond Wild.

B

Interesting. Yes.

A

Lately they came out with the art.

B

Yep.

A

Which I was like, people are like,

B

oh, it looks very integrated.

A

They were like this and that. I'm like, it's sub 2000. They're like, what? He goes, I want to get one. And I was like, why? 2 seconds ago you, you were, you were, you were like bitching about it. And now you're like, it's a cool watch. I'm like, yeah. They came out with their Toccata vintage.

B

Yeah.

A

Fantastic watch. Manual wound, beautiful blue dial. And before that they come out with the millesime which I happened to see in pre preview when they were still in development. I was like, holy shit, it's gonna kill it. And then basically they won the GPhD with that. They did a few months later. So those three, those, those three watches individually would kill it. This one brand has all three at the same time.

B

Yeah. Okay. Sub 5000.

A

So sub 5000, you have quite a, quite a, quite a big choice. I tell people to either buy entry level vintage, like a Speedmaster, at that point there's still.

B

Yeah, you can, you can, you can get a Speedy Pro.

A

You couldn't, you couldn't before, but now you can, you still can. Yeah. From. From three and a Swiss francs, three and a half to maybe 5,000. Get nice speedy pro treatium. Or not.

B

Yeah.

A

Sub 5,000, a perfect one is going to be more, but one that's clean and wearable for another 50 years. Sub 10,000, it becomes more difficult.

B

Yes.

A

Because the, the choices widen. I try to send, I try. For me, Cartier is where it's at right now. Stainless steel Cartier. You have every stainless steel model is below 10,000.

B

Yes, barely. But yeah, yeah.

A

You have the tank center below, it's like six, seven thousand. You have the tank quartz which are like three, three and a half thousand you have the steel Santos. That was like seven thousand.

B

Yeah, well they're getting up there. Yeah. And the Titan, the new titanium one I believe is.

A

Yeah, but that's just true. Just that's just like I can make a fun titanium watch because I can. This isn't, this isn't in the DNA of Cartier whatsoever. Titanium isn't. But they're making a fun watch. A lot of people are like they don't want that a clunky watch because it's still a bit heavy and titanium, they love it. And then once you go into like the sub 15, sub 20 retail you have all the Rolex models and then once you pass the the 20 marks you can get any cool vintage watch. You can get like a perpetual calendar from AP, a simple model, you can get sub 30. You can also get the Vacheron one. You can get sometimes even annual calendars from Patek Philippe under 20,000 Swiss francs or at 20,000 Swiss francs. Yes. 50, 35. I've sold them for like 19 5.

B

Right.

A

Recently.

B

Interesting.

A

Maybe now they're like 21. But it's still. You're getting a lot of value for the money. You can get for like around 30,000. You can get more elaborated perpetuals and even Breguet you can get under 20. I try to mention again some fantastic pieces today for example. This is going to be self promotion but I want to sell promo one watch today.

B

You know, you've given us all this time. Indeed, you have a of lot license

A

for like 36000 Swiss francs. You can get a solid gold full set Breguet Tourbillon. Crazy.

B

From, from what era?

A

Basically it's the architecture from the Roth era and it's the same architecture as Daniel Roth where very intelligently he realized early on that the one of the wheels was going to cover the tourbillon cage. So he moved all the hour indication and a smaller counter at 12 o'. Clock. That's why Breguet and Roth have the same look.

B

Yeah.

A

And it became an iconic way to have the tourbillon. If you look at all the other tourbillons from the 80s and 90s, other than other than the AP ones which were. The first two were a bit weird and then the later ones were all standard like Vacheron. You always have this one wheel below the hour and minute hands that's covering part of the tourbillon cage. That drives me crazy. But. But no, the Breguet solved that solved out and it's fantastic.

B

Interesting. Okay, I'm not, I'M not gonna let you go. We're not gonna go through every category. Yeah, no, no, I think we're. Well, like, you know, money is no object. What is the ultimate grail for you? What is, you know, endgame watch. What is that?

A

So funny enough, a watch that the dial resembles the most, the royal Pop I like that is the minute repeater royal oak from ap because it has a sub second that looks just like the Royal Pop. And this is one of my, you know, wear under your sleeve. Nobody knows what it is. And you can activate the, the repeater and then it's. Holy shit. There's no, there's nothing on the dial that tells you how important that watch is because the slide is on the left side. So it's really, really incognito.

B

It's still a royal oak, but. But indeed, yeah, that you don't know what kind of royal oak.

A

It's. It's the only royal oak that doesn't, that doesn't look like an expensive royal oak unless you see the slide and you recognize the sub. The, the sub dial. Other than that, of course, I would love one day to have a Tufour Akari, Red Chep, many other independents. It's no money. I would. But again, I want to be able to wear my watches and I want to be able to be like, I can't leave my shop with this on my wrists. I want to be able to be. I can leave my shop with this on my wrist.

B

Yeah, exactly, exactly. Anything else we should know about what's coming up for you and the business in the near future?

A

So we're trying to grow, we're trying to grow. We're figuring out a ways to grow, which right now it's a bit difficult. But we have things brewing. Business wise, we're quite happy because we've been really sourcing very well. Some important watch today. Again, gonna be a shameless plug. We have a fantastic grand compilations by ap which is a grand scenery carillon, one of five with open case back. This is really a watch that I put on my. Somebody came in the shop and putting on my wrist to be like, oh, look at this cool watch. And I was like. And I looked at it and I was like, can I buy it? And he was like, that wasn't the plan. And I was like, no, no, I wanna, I wanna, I want to own and sell this. Like I, you know, it's like it like, it like touched me deep because you see, the dial is finished. Like a brigade dial. It feels like it Feels like Kari was involved in, in. This is a Julie Mar from the early 2000s. And then we did really well. We bought a bunch of nautiluses in the last couple of the last year, year and a half, and they've been like flying off the shelves. We just have, we have one which is quite important. Students. We're asking an obnoxious price for it, but it is, according to my research, the earliest double signed ever made.

B

And. And it double signed with who? Ah, with Cupido.

A

Yeah. Okay, so we're asking a very strong price because I'm. I. I mean, we need to sell it, but I don't care about if I sell it. I love the watch so much. Someday, one day, one day someone's going to come in and be like, okay, I'll make you an offer that I can't refuse. But until then, I'm like, no, this is a fantastic watch.

B

And last thing, I mean for any collector, is there any bit of concise. I mean, some people say, buy what you love.

A

I have my three rules.

B

Let's have your three rules.

A

My first rule is condition, condition, condition. If you buy a new watch, it's besides the point. But when you buy vintage, it needs to be perfect dialogue, perfect case, perfect movement. Second rule is buy what you love. Don't care what people tell you, like, oh, you should buy this. Walk in, you fall in love with it, you're like, holy shit, I didn't know I needed this. Buy what you love. And the third rule, I tell people that say, buy within your budget. If you have a budget of like 8k and you can spend 9, it's okay. But don't buy a 20k watch. So these are the. Read the three rules. Rules. Besides the fact that trust by the seller. Yes, but that's a universal rule. It's not my rule.

B

Very good. Roy Davidoff, thank you for joining us on the business of watches. Thank you very much.

A

Andy Hoffman. Thank you very much.

B

Well done, sir.

A

That was a long.

B

Was there any. Yeah, it was a little long, but that's okay. It's good. Anymore. Any. Was there anything we wanted to hit that we didn't? Because we didn't talk about the watch fairs, which is fine. It's good. We talked about.

A

Yeah, but Zilia was like, I don't like the.