Chris Cootie

Welcome back to the Lead Worship well podcast. I'm your host, Chris Cootie. To the thousands of you listening, the worship pastors, the Sunday morning leaders, the ones carrying a team and a calendar that never seems to slow down, this episode is just for you. Today I have the honor of sitting down with Jen Johnson. If you've led worship at any point in the last two decades, you have almost certainly sung a song that Jen, her husband Brian and their team have been a part of. She has truly been a voice for so many of us. But here's what I really love about this conversation. We didn't come to talk strategy. We came to talk about you, the worship leader. In fact, there's a lyric on Jen's new album, a song called Mad at God, that became the heartbeat of our whole conversation. The lyric is, remember who you are. Remember what is true. If we're honest as worship leaders, that's the thing that slips first, isn't it? We step onto a platform, we start to perform, we start finding our identity in what we do instead of who God says we are. We get tired, mind, body and spirit, and we forget who we are and what is true. So today we're going to have a conversation like we're sitting in the Johnson's living room with the rest of her team. We'll talk about identity, about building community, about staying healthy for the long haul, and about the quiet, hidden years that God uses to shape a leader. My prayer is simple, that wherever you find yourself in your ministry journey right now, that this podcast, this conversation with Jen would be an encouragement to you. Well, welcome to the Lead Worship well podcast Jen Johnson. Catch us up. What's new in the Johnson house? That's where I think you are right now. Fill us in on all the summer activities in the Johnson home.

Jen Johnson

It is a wild week this week. We have my son graduated high school and my oldest son and my youngest son is graduating kindergarten. It is also my two little guys birthday this week. So we have a big birthday party. We had grad party. It's just every party happening in this house this week, so. And then we head away on vacation at the end of the week. So eyes on the prize after all of the things this week, but it's exciting time.

Chris Cootie

Oh, by the way, let's just launch a brand new album in the midst of it, right?

Jen Johnson

Exactly. We also had an album baby, last week. Yeah, we were in Nashville and had a really fun release party. We just invited some of our closest friends and a bunch of people who were on the album over to our house and just had an amazing time together. There was tacos there. It was just an amazing way to celebrate it. So. And it's been out now for a week and a half, which is crazy. And it's been really fun to see all the response. And if you've heard the album, it is quite the ride. So people are just so, like, their minds are blown with, you know, kind of all of the different ways that the album takes you on this wild journey. So it's been really fun.

Chris Cootie

It really is a journey. I love the way you described it in another interview. A mosaic of your life. And we'll talk more about Happy here in a little bit. And to those listening, your worship pastors, there's thousands of you listening. You, at some point in your ministry, have sung a song that Jen and her team and her husband Brian have been a part of. And I told her before this call, and I just want to do it now, just honor you and the voice that you are. For so many of us as worship leaders, and our prayer today is we just have this conversation, and we happen to be recording this conversation for you to listen to that it would be an encouragement for you in whatever season of ministry you find yourself in. Jen, obviously has been doing this for some time and leading at so many different levels that many of us aspire to. But really, I want to hop into this conversation. And speaking of your album, there's this song called Mad at God, which is, again, just a journey in and of itself. I love the honesty of it, but I love the way that you wrap that song. The lyric is, remember who you are. Remember what is true. And in this journey of worship leadership, I think those two reminders for us can be so easily the last thing we do. We try to step on a platform and perform. We begin to find our identity in what we do and not in who God says. And so take us on a journey. Jen, I think I would love to just have a conversation like we're just some of your team at your house, and maybe we're worship leaders who are tired, who are trying to actually live that remembrance out that you encourage us to do. And let's just hop in to the worship leader that is tired, that can't find rest for their mind, their body, their spirit, all three. Let's just hop in. What. What's God's been speaking into your heart? And what word do you have for the worship leader listening today?

Jen Johnson

Well, I think that this is. This album really is mosaic, because it. It's on so many different topics and so many different kind of seasons of life. Honestly, that's why the Mosaic word and also the Mosaic word is such a cool word for this because a mosaic is actually something that is beautiful, made of broken pieces, and it's been such a great visual for. For us, for this whole project. But, you know, I just think that different seasons of our life that God takes us through, he's so present in all of them. Whether it's in grief or in doubt or in joy or whatever life brings us. You know, God is meeting us right in the middle of that. And. And so I think for me just being a Christian my whole life, I've loved Jesus since I was a little girl, and I've always walked with him all my days. And he has just truly been that in every season of life. Exactly what I've needed and the word of God to open it up and to have God speak. Exactly what I needed to hear that moment. You know, you can read the Bible, you can hear it in every Sunday of your life, but when you open it and read it for yourself and let God speak to you directly, there's nothing that replaces that, you know, and so I'm just so thankful and so grateful for not only the presence of God, but the word of God and just how he speaks to us in the valley and on the mountain. It's not just lyrics that we sing. It is truth lived out. And so. And you know, we've gone through a really. A few years ago, you know, we lost Brian's mom to a really grueling years of cancer. And you know, you just have so much question and so much doubt and so much emotion that's mixed in all of that. And just to have the spirit of God just speak. Exactly what we needed to hear in those moments of we don't know all the answers, but we do know who God is and that he never changes. And that we have to stay anchored in that even though we don't understand a lot this side of heaven, we won't and we have to surrender. And that's even where that song takes you into this moment of reminding yourself who you are and what. What really is true. No matter what your emotions or life wants to tell you, tries to tell you otherwise, that you have to just fight to stay anchored to what is true. And so I just think that surrounding yourself with healthy community, like you're saying, emotionally, physically and spiritually, we say that here all the time. I have a book that I wrote called All Things Lovely. And it's not just for girls. It's all about, you know, that holistic way of thinking and being that God's called us to be emotionally, physically, and spiritually. And so I think that these themes that we're talking about of God's faithfulness and him speaking to us, him being with us, him leading us, and just in the process, and the hard stuff, just surrendering and letting him heal us too. You know, you go through hard times in life that you just need to heal from. And so that song really leads you kind of into a moment where you just let God do just that, just to heal you and make all things new.

Chris Cootie

How have you and Brian in leading the church? And obviously you're writing songs globally, but you're leading a community, as you said. The idea that so many worship leaders find themselves in isolation and they're trying to just perpetually fill the PCO calendar and move on to the next weekend because, oh, by the way, it's coming relentlessly. How have you built a community where that kind of iron, sharpening iron, journeying through the seasons, the highs and the lows of life, alongside of other worship, how have you built that community? Because I know talking to worship leaders, that's a struggle for a lot of them. Where would you start if you were to start all over again? What would you repeat? What would you correct in building community?

Jen Johnson

I think it's one of my favorite parts of what we do. And it has not come easy by any means, but the fruit of it, with anything in life, right. The hard work that comes with it is so rewarding. And, you know, we started. We've been doing what we've been doing pastoring for 26 years now. And I think that when we started realizing the need for people to connect and care for each other, outside of just showing up for a sound check and playing for church, you know, it was like, we need to really love these people. Well, and I think, like, in the fivefold gift mix, I'm probably pastoral number one. I just really care about people. I care about their marriages, I care about their families and their children. And so, you know, that is a lot of hours at baby showers and weddings and funerals and the whole spectrum of loving people. Well, we have people in our home, our team. This Thursday night, this room here will be filled with a hundred plus of our worship team, because we meet every month in our house. So this living room right here will be filled with, you know, singing, worshiping, loving on each other, praying for each other. We Take two and a half hours to just be together. One of those hours we just eat together and, you know, you really get to life on life with people where you're caring for a community of people. We have a pastoral team that meet and every single person on our worship team and their spouse has a pastoral covering over them, where they're checking on them, they're meeting with them, they're walking with them and talking with them. And I think that that has been the secret sauce to a lot of what we do. I think I believe you can hear it in our music, the fact that we have community and that we have. And it also translates on the stage as well, because when you know someone in real life, when you spent time with them, when you love them, you work together and flow on a team with them in a very different way than if you're just showing up for a sound check and clocking in, clocking out the life on life, the time with each other translates into what you're doing on the stage and how you work together. And so I think people may not realize what they hear when they hear Bethel community, but they hear more than the music. They definitely hear the community aspect as well. And so I think that's been a huge piece of. And it's honestly been one of the biggest joys of my life is to have thousands of people who have come through our teams that we've had for, you know, six months or five years or 10 years or more, you know, and to have that community expand and to watch them love each other and then that to go global as people have moved around the world or joined other ministries or, you know, this person's here now and that to watch it spread and to live open handed, which as a leader is very hard to do when you invest and then they move away. But to really trust that God spoke to me years ago. I'll bring you who you need and I'll move. For one reason or the next, I'll move. Who needs to move? And so if you can just steward and be faithful of the people who you know, you have at the time, knowing that if they need to go, God will bring you who you need to bring. And that open handed leadership to not hold on to people, but to really trust the Lord that he'll bring you people at the right time and to take the ones that need to move. So it's been a wild journey, highs and lows, it's a lot of tears, it's not been all, you know, flowers, but it's been amazing to be able to pastor for 26 years. And it's an honor, and I'll do it until Jesus changes the I. I

Chris Cootie

love the picture of hearing the community fleshed out in the sound of Bethel music. You know, as a worship leader, I've. I've been trying to replicate the Bethel snare sound for a long time. Or, you know, we, as worship leaders, you try to. You try to kind of not carbon copy, just to copy for copy sake, but you see God moving in a way, and you're like, man, we want that spirit here. And to the worship leader listening, oftentimes it's not processes or systems that you need to replicate. It's a way of thinking and community that comes along with that. And so I love that picture. For the worship leader who's like, I don't know how to build community. It's not a sprint, it's a marathon, as you said. I love just watching videos of you having hundreds of your team in your home. That's not always comfortable. Sometimes you have new team members, and by the way, you may have conflict, and you're opening your home and you're modeling that kind of pastoral spirit. And so I would encourage you, anybody listening, to just start their break bread together. When's the last time you had a meal with your team, not just because you had a rehearsal and you needed a meal, but that you had no agenda other than being together? What would you say to the. To the worship pastor who, as you've said, you've had seasons and ebbs and flows of people coming in and out of your ministry. You've got a lot who have been there for a long time. And so sometimes the new person coming into an already existing, thriving community, what are some hacks or some tricks that you've done to just bring those new people in and graft them into a community that's already been moving long before they got here?

Jen Johnson

Something we do. So we do team night every month where everybody comes over and it looks different each night. So last month, we broke everybody into small groups of, like, about six each. And we go around with a bunch of questions. And so it's a way of getting to know people on an intimate level that kind of mixes it up. It's not the same group every time. So you really are just taking time to get to know people and what they're going through in their life and what they need and how they're feeling. And so the small group idea is something that's been really beneficial, and then in this big group on a Thursday night, we always eat together. We have a high value for food. We say, Jesus was a foodie. He's always around a banquet.

Chris Cootie

Yeah, you got a food culture.

Jen Johnson

Yeah, we model that. We love that Jesus liked to eat with his friends. And so, you know, that's a big portion of what we do. And then we worship together. Most nights, other than the breakout small group night, we worship together and someone speaks either within the team or leadership or church or a guest, someone speaks. And then we kind of. We've got new people coming onto the team almost every single month, and we've got people moving almost every single month. So usually we're praying for people coming on or leaving almost every single time, and we prophesy over them as well and take some good time. And then we kind of open it up for what's going on. The pulse of if someone's got. If there's a miscarriage or if there's a wedding to celebrate or kind of whatever's going on, we celebrate or we grieve or we have a moment of intentionality for those people in the group. And so we're just keeping a pulse on our community at all times, which has been really helpful as well, but. And then at the end, we just hang and we turn the fire pits on and we let people stay as late as they want and hang. And so you've got little pockets of groups of people all around the property, inside and out, that are just kind of having fun together. We have a pickleball court that they go play pickleball on a lot of times before and after. So we've been building this property here for over. I mean, I think this is the 16th year we've lived here, and we've just been building it as a place to host our team and our friends and retreats and. And so God's really just given us this big vision of having our house be a community place, not just for our local community, but even for the global community. We have global worship retreats here with all the people that God highlights that we started, I think, like 12 years ago now. So every year we pray about who we should invite and invite those people and. And we have that retreat and a bunch of other retreats as well. And there's. There's a party at our house. No joke, a big party at our house, like weekly, if not bi weekly. The other day there was two parties at the same time on our property.

Chris Cootie

Simultaneous parties.

Jen Johnson

Yeah, it's. It's a revolving door of humans that we love. So it's been really special to be able to, you know, kind of create this world for people to feel home.

Chris Cootie

You know, as you've navigated the different seasons and you even talked about it, you had a son who's graduating kindergarten and high school all in the same week. How have you navigated that kind of just open door community alongside of the highs and lows of just parenting? And how have you brought your kids along? What are maybe some things that you're like, we could have done that differently or we should definitely repeat that with our younger two. What advice would you give to the couple who's leading a team together and they've got growing kids with growing demands each and every year?

Jen Johnson

Yeah, it's a juggle, that's what I say. There's no polished schedule. I mean, you know, this is, I'm doing, working on my calendar right now and it's just a zoo. So I think that the biggest advice I could give is take the pressure off to try to get everything right and just know that different seasons look different. And for us, with any, you know, we are local worship pastors and that's, that's our biggest thing that we have really pivoted everything else around other than being parents and being married. And so the past few years though, it's really changed to a much broader and bigger the past 10 years. So like I said, it could look different each season of your life. But we really do try to just ask the Lord what we're doing outside of our normal pastoring vibes, what we're doing and any events or conferences or albums or song collabs, anything like that. We just really try to have a green light from God to, to do it because there's a lot of opportunity and the enemy would love nothing more than either to exhaust us and burn us out by doing too much or, you know, but I, I think that God's been really faithful to show us what to do and we've just done our best to follow that and it's worked really well because he's really faithful to, to lead us through all of life's seasons. But yeah, we, we make our kids a priority with whatever they've got going on, which is a lot with five kids. Yeah, and our son in law who we count as our own. So, you know, it is an absolute zoo. But it's day by day, you know, one day at a time. And I'm just trying to ebb and flow with kind of what they've got going on what we've got going on. And I think that, you know, just God's been so faithful to. As we have led our kids in the right direction that obviously it says they won't turn from that. So that's our prayer, you know, but they're all on a journey.

Chris Cootie

I love the not taking yourself too seriously. It's. Embracing the mess sometimes is some of the hardest, especially as performers. Right. We. We know how to get on stage and make the house look clean when it's really not. And all the things that. And. And just taking the pressure off.

Jen Johnson

Yep.

Chris Cootie

To just say sometimes this is just season of life.

Jen Johnson

That's my. That's my sink full of dirty dishes right there.

Chris Cootie

She didn't. She didn't clean the dishes before the podcast. That's just.

Jen Johnson

This part of the house is clean that the sink is, like, literally overflowing with dishes. So, you know, that's life. Right. We can't. We're just the same as everybody else, you know, we're all on a journey with God and we're doing our best, and that's all you can do.

Chris Cootie

What about you and Brian? Navigating, leading together? And selfishly, I'm going to be taking notes because my wife and I have been doing that for our 20 years of marriage as well. There's a lot of people listening. Today you are shepherding a team, your worship pastors, with your spouse, and that probably comes with its highs and its lows. I'm not speaking from experience. How have you guys navigated that in your decades of marriage? And what would you do if you could do it all over again? Start from the beginning and say, we would fix that right away. What advice would you have to the couple who's leading a team together?

Jen Johnson

It's probably a book of what I would do differently, but.

Chris Cootie

An encyclopedia.

Jen Johnson

Yeah. I mean, again, you know, live and learn, and it's kind of like a dance, you know, so it's not polished. It's just kind of rolling with things and rolling with the punches, you know? But Brian and I operate really differently on a lot of things and really similarly on others. And so we have this phrase that we use called honoring the point, and we both really trust each other, that even if we don't see it that way, or especially in worship, leading on direction or what we're feeling, that if someone feels something strongly, the other person will follow suit to what that person is sensing. So if it's a song or a spontaneous moment, we just kind of are always watching each other. And if he feels something, then, you know, I follow suit. And that's been a really great kind of partnership that we've developed in life as well. And it's just a dance, you know, you learn things as you go. And we're very thankful for counseling. We've gotten counseling from before we've gotten married all the way through till now. We still get counseling. And I think that has really, really changed our lives because or formed us or made us have an amazing marriage because we've always gotten help. So if we hit a wall with something in communication or life or parenting or anything, we reach out for help instantly and are talking with our counselors and mentors. And that has been a massive foundation for us to not have to try to figure it out ourselves, but to really lean into wisdom. And so I can't recommend counseling. You gotta get someone who's spirit filled counselor in your life to work with you and help you. We've done a lot of developmental leadership things. We're always pursuing how to grow and be better. And we live really open with our team as well. Like, talk to me about me and even especially the hard stuff. Oftentimes leaders, they get to a place where they're leading and no one's giving them feedback. And I think that's very scary. So I think inviting the people closest to you, our whole Bethel Music leadership team, they all know any leader in our life, please talk to me. The encouragement's fine, but the constructive criticism is what's helpful because everybody has blind spots. We all have blind spots. And I mean, my team came to me this year and they said, you're not okay. You're not okay. You need to take a break. And they were 100% right. Like, we've had a really intense year with a bunch of different things from church to friends to kids. We've had actually a traumatic year in a lot of sense. And so my team came to me and were like, I think you need a sabbatical. And so. And we listened. And so we are actually, we've been on sabbatical other than doing things for my album here and there, like little podcasts or things like this. We haven't been doing any ministry. We haven't been leading at church for, I think it's been three and a half months now. And so we've never taken this sabbatical in 26 years of ministry. So again, leaning into what the people around you are saying and keeping people close enough in your life, especially as a leader where you're welcoming feedback and people talking to you. That's been a major strength of our life.

Chris Cootie

Was the journey through counseling a newer thing? Has it been a practice that you guys have always had? What was that kind of pivot or that light switch and saying, hey, we need to be renewing our mind, opening up the things and the thoughts that have just been stewing in there for so long to somebody else. What's that process been like for you? Is it recent?

Jen Johnson

We started getting official counseling before we got married. You know, marriage counseling. Yep. And it was so beneficial and helpful that I just. We thought to ourselves, like, why would we stop that? Like, why would we stop, you know, talking to someone and getting help? And so it's just been a continued journey for 27 years of us, not just even in our marriage, but in parenting. Parenting is crazy. You know, parenting is, like, so wild, and we've never done it before. And so we need help. And so I think that just the practice of being honest and being vulnerable and reaching out to get help, it's just kind of been our posture since before we were married. And I'm just so thankful for it because there are people out there who have what you need. And yes, God is our everything. But God designed us to need each other. Like, he designed us to access himself in each other. And so I would say I would encourage every person to find someone and be honest and be vulnerable. And also as a leader or even if you're a part of a team and you're not the leader, to make yourself vulnerable to people, because that's. That's how we safeguard our lives from the enemy, is that we stay connected and we stay open. Because God can work with anything that you're honest and vulnerable about. But if you are shut down and hiding things and living in shame, you're just going to fester and you're going to be. You know, it's going to affect your whole life, your whole body, and so put everything into the light that there's nothing hidden. And reach out to people who can help you through anything and keep you accountable to live in purity.

Chris Cootie

It's a great word and encouragement, Jen, because there was some research that came out, and we'll link it in the show notes. But the Worship leader Research project did the largest sample of worship leaders. I don't know if you saw the study, but there was just this staggering gap between the worship leader who says, I'm not okay, but I'm probably not going to go ask for help. And I think that's just a great reminder that somewhere along in this journey of ministry and also having to be on the stage where we're the loudest and the brightest, we begin to buy into the lie that we have to put on this show in every season of our life that is not real. And there is someone today listening who needs to pick up the phone, schedule an appointment, bring your spouse with you to talk to a counselor who would speak life and help you renew your mind and walk through this journey. I know that's true of my, my wife and I's life. The seasons where we have been the healthiest, we were an open book. And the seasons where we were struggling, there was nobody close who knew what we were really thinking. And so I want to encourage anybody listening today to do that. And as you talk about, you know, you've been leading this thing at Bethel for 26 years, you said, yeah, there's also not just the mind component of this thing called worship leading, but also the body component of it, too. Right. And how, what disciplines have you brought into your life? That's like, I want to be doing this when I'm 60. I want to be doing that. I want to be leading maybe differently, but at a high level well into my old age. What have been some best practices that you're teaching your team, you're replicating in yourself that have really helped you feel like, I'm going to go the distance in whatever length or stretch God has

Jen Johnson

For me, I think there are a few that have just really made the difference. And one is just being in church when you're not leading the temptation, especially as you kind of go on in years doing something is to show up for what you're doing and not to show up on just a normal Sunday and to be normal. And that's been a major practice for us that we have stayed faithful to. We lead once or twice a month, but every Sunday we're front row. And if we're traveling somewhere else, we try to be in church on Sunday if it if at all possible. And it says very clearly in the Bible, those who are planted in the house of the Lord flourish. And it's been a standout for me to just see other people's lives in the worship space, especially to see people who are planted in a local church versus people who aren't. And the Bible's pretty clear about that, that you flourish when you are planted. And so I think that people church hop a lot, which, you know, I can understand the temptation, but I think that God has In every season of our life has somewhere for you to be planted. And if God hasn't highlighted where that should be, maybe you're supposed to plant a church. So, but I think that being a worship creative and being planted in a church is absolutely vital. And so that's been a huge key is to be planted, to be led, to ask for feedback. What we just talked about all that. And then practically the community piece that we talked about is the next one. To not just have a, you know, I check in, I clock in, but to have something where you are a part of something and not just for what you can get out of it. Again, that's church as well. You're not showing up to see what you can get out of it. Community and church is something that we are supposed to give back to. How can you help? How can you love people? How can you. And so looking to see how you can do that instead of just what it can give to you is a really huge key as well. So community and then exercise and what you eat. Again, we were talking about this holistic learning of like body, soul and spirit. And body is really important in this life that we're called to live. It says to run the good race before us. And to run a race, we have to actually prepare for that. We have to be doing something. I don't know about you, but you can't just decide today you're going to run a race and do it really well. You have to be really intentional. And so I think if I chose five words that I was going to choose for my life. Worship, community, one of them is going to be intentionality. You have to be intentional about what you're doing. And so eating healthy and exercise are something that we really encourage our team to be diligent and to be intentional about. Because you can be reading your Bible and going to church and, you know, you could be checking all these boxes off and then you can be sitting at home and eating junk food. And that's not good stewardship of this body that God gave us. It's not going to help your emotions. And it's all connected emotionally, spiritually and physically. You really have to steward your life and be intentional in all things, not just in the spiritual part, but looking at it holistically and being intentional, just kind of how I take care of my body and my mind and my spirit.

Chris Cootie

And your voice is a muscle too. And just the idea that inputs yield outputs. And so it's like for some, they're like, I'm struggling and I keep losing my voice when it's allergy season. It's like, it's not allergies, it's your diet, it's not allergies. It's the fact that you're not getting reps when you're not on the stage.

Jen Johnson

Right.

Chris Cootie

What have you done vocally? There's a lot of worship leaders who struggle with this at different seasons of their life. I know with my wife, through three kids, she was like some pregnancies, I could sing through anything. Others, it was like, I don't know. My voice is changing the journey. Just some of the technical maybe hacks that you've used, Jen, to kind of work through those different seasons, how you've strengthened that muscle. From a health perspective.

Jen Johnson

My voice has been a tough journey for me because I have a thyroid disorder that I am being healed from that causes my voice to go hoarse really easy. So I can't tour long tours. I can't do a lot of things that other people can do because I have to just be really careful with throwing my voice out because it gets hoarse really easy. So I've had, I've seen a naturopath doctor and I do a lot of blood work for my vitamins and my hormones and my food allergies to kind of work with my body. So I feel incredible. But I've done a lot of work to pay attention. You know, there's power in the blood is what we say, like God gave you just an incredible way to find out what's going on in your body, in your blood. And so another thing I would encourage everyone to do is to find out what's going on in your body. Go get your blood work done and see what you need. Oftentimes people struggle in intense ways in areas that if they just knew their blood work and could find out what's going on and what their body needs, could really make a big difference in their mind, their body, their emotions. And so that's a huge thing that we've seen. But practically we've done a good amount of voice help, voice coaching. We've brought our team through a few different people that we work with for just strengthening that goes. I do this same little 10 minute vocal warmup before I sing. It's a girl I found on YouTube and I've just done it for like 10 years and she has like a million views and I'm probably like 999% of it. But that's my little routine. Nothing, nothing big.

Chris Cootie

My wife does the same thing. She's Been using the same. And I warm up to the same alto warmup because she's doing it in the car as we're getting ready. And my kids have all the phrases.

Jen Johnson

They know it.

Chris Cootie

Yeah, it's like, locked down. I'm like, you guys should jump in, too. I love the understanding of what your body's doing in different seasons, whether it's diet or just health, things that you may be contending with. If you're listening, I've got a ton of basketball stuff behind me. I'm a sports nerd. And to think of the people that go the distance in whatever field they're in, they are experts at the thing that makes them great at what they. You've got a gift as a worship leader, and your vocal is that gift. Your muscle is that gift to steward. And so become a student of it. Become an expert in it. Understand. Oh, at this time of year, I may be struggling with this. If you feel like you keep working through things every weekend, don't just expect it to go away. Go get some answers. Go get some blood draws. Yeah. Go talk to somebody who's a. Who's a professional. I love to. To ask this question as we pivot into just wrapping our conversation, but anybody who has been doing this, the way in which you've been doing it, the amount of time you've been doing it, we all have those lessons. We look back and say, hindsight. You know, we can't go back and change the past. But when you look back at the seasons of ministry that you've walked through, what does somebody who's just getting started need to hear about the journey of ministry from a Jen Johnson, who's been doing this for 26 years, that you wish you knew when you were 20, you wish you knew then what you

Jen Johnson

know now, again, probably a book I need to write one day, but I. I think that I'm thankful for the years that I was able to be not on a platform to really develop my life in God. And, you know, I. I started leading worship in a broader way when I was, like, 17 and 18, but just those years of being able to not be on a stage and just to be able to learn who God was and to learn who I was through Him. And I think that relationship with him that is born in your private life is something that is the most important part of anything that we do externally. And so I'm just so thankful for that. And I think if I could encourage anyone watching, it would be to deepen and develop your relationship with God. Knowing about him and your time with him, learning to hear him, learning to practice his voice because it's, it's the off hours that, that really matter. And then when you get up to lead worship, it's just an overflow of your life. It's not something that you're, you're doing that the performing or the, anything like that is fake. You know, God just wants us to be authentic and honest. And at times, you know, you go through things and you still have to get up and lead worship and you know, you can stay anchored in who God is and bring people through the power of the testimony of that. You know, it's like the song Cornerstone and Christ alone, you know, like these songs that are, you don't have to get up and fake that you're doing perfectly, but you can sing faith filled songs about who God is, no matter what. That is honest. Even if you're going through a hard time, you don't need to drag a congregation through these low moments in your life. You can, you can lead them from that victorious place of even though you know that, that David, but God, you moment, that's, that is honest and that is authentic. But I think that just that that's one thing that I would encourage everybody to stay connected to is just that honest, authentic. Reading your Bible, spending time with God, getting to know God, spending time in church, surrounding yourself with really healthy community where iron does sharpen iron and taking it. There's no goal. The stage isn't the goal. And you know, I love one of my favorite stories for worship leaders is that David was by himself, minding his own business, doing his father's work, and he wasn't looking to be king, but God knew just how to get him where he needed to be to be king and to do something. And so I believe that if you're just faithful to do what you're supposed to be doing and you're faithful to the Lord and what he's called you to do, he'll get you wherever you need to go. And maybe that's not ever somewhere in the public eye, that's not the goal, it's wherever he has you that matters. And so just being faithful to the best of your ability to do that and to be wherever he wants you

Chris Cootie

to be, what a great encouragement. You know, I heard a pastor say, and I can't remember who said it, and I've heard it quoted a few times, but these days with social media, we're living in an age where we have a lot of people who are overexposed and underdeveloped, like a bad photograph in the dark room. Too much exposure, too quick. And what I heard you say, Jen, was just so encouraging to us as older leaders who have lived that journey of like, I thank God he didn't give me everything I prayed for when I was 20 because I wasn't ready. And for some of you, you're sitting in that tension of you want the opportunity, you want the PCO request, and if you would just live in the beauty of the development that God has for you. He's birthing something in you that at the right time, will be ready. It may be on a platform, it may not be. But take it from somebody who has walked that journey and just such a great encouragement. What would you say to the leader who's. I'm 42. I've got younger people under me who want that opportunity. What are some words of wisdom you'd give to that leader? Who needs to tell a younger leader, not right now. How do you have that conversation in a way that's helpful to that person? And just, no, it's not right now. Sorry.

Jen Johnson

Yeah, there's. There's not an easy way about that. But I think at the end of the day, I'm thankful for the people in my life who. Who knew I wasn't ready for something, you know, And I. I remember being zealous and younger and in high school and playing for a youth group and. But my pastor wouldn't let me lead for Big church. We called it Big Church, you know, and so. And I'm thankful for that. Although at the time, I was like, what the heck? You know, and so I would just say, you know, trust that and don't take it personal. Go take that and go back and work on your craft. Get better at your instrument, get better at voice lessons, get better at whatever you're putting your. Your heart to, and tell it. They feel like it is the right season for you. Yeah, again, like, I'm. I'm thankful for that. But again, the other thing is, is I just did my first project, and I'm 44, you know, so, like, let things be in God's time. I. I've just kind of done my best to submit to God. Like, you know, if I ever do something, like my own project, that's great. If not, I don't. I don't care. Like, what do you want me to do? Who do you want me to write with? What project do you want? You know, and just also focusing on, like, doing my best to bring others along and like, encourage and to do things together with other people that God is highlighting. And I've been very happy and surrendered to the fact that I probably, maybe I don't do my own thing one day, whatever, I don't care. But I really felt two years ago that the Lord spoke to me to write people through things. Like to write them through different seasons of their life. From my childhood hymn that I have on this happy album, all the way to walking through grief and walking through doubt and walking through questioning if God is even real and walking. Obviously there's, you know, new worship songs on the project as well that are just where I'm at right now. But it's a really a project to sing people through different seasons of their lives. But again, I'm 44 years old putting this out for the first time. So you never know what God has for you. You just have to be faithful to what you feel like he's saying. Whether you're songwriting or where you're worship leading because you want to be where God is calling you to be. You do not want something that, like you said, you think you want or pray for. You want what he has for your life in that season. And so I'm just a product of being, doing my best to follow what that is and God being so faithful to do exactly what, when, where and how with my life.

Chris Cootie

One of the paradoxes of life, you got more time than you think you do, and you have less time than you think you do. Yeah. And so many of us are trying to rush processes that God may say, that solo album's coming at 44. Jen, you're gonna have to wait. And you're like, God, have you heard Goodness of God yet? I mean, it's a, you know, I just. What an encouragement because I think we try to rush things that God has in due season and due time. Speaking of happy, like your 5, 6 kids, including your son in law, who may be your favorite kid. It's probably hard to. To announce.

Jen Johnson

Love him. Yeah.

Chris Cootie

What my favorite song is from the album. What is. If you had to name a favorite from the happy album, what is it and why? And maybe it's different at different days for different reasons.

Jen Johnson

Yeah, it really is just so unique with. It's just crazy. That's what it is, people. Our favorite comment, one of my. I have four different producers on this album because I knew I just needed different people to kind of accomplish what I wanted to do. But one of my producers, Josh was like, people aren't Ready, like, no one's ready for this. It's just, like, not what anyone's gonna expect. But it's been so fun to see how it's connecting with so many people. And, yeah, it's like picking a favorite kid. You love them all for a different reason. One of the tracks is just my. He was 4 at the time, my youngest singing. I've got the joy, joy, joy down in my heart. And it's just so precious because it's an iPhone recording from a hotel room when we were on vacation when he was singing, and I was like, sing it again. And that's that. We put it on the album just like that, you know? And one of the tracks on the album, the Johnsons, have this family song that we sing before Thanksgiving and Christmas called father, we thank thee. And right here in the living room, I put a microphone in the middle of the room and gathered the Johnson family and we sang it. And that's a track on the album. So it's. It is really different pieces of my life. Happy is a mosaic song of. It's. It's God. Any of the songs in the album are cool because it's God singing over you. This love song of how God is obsessed with you and knows every detail of your life, but it's also. Can be from you to another person that you love in your life. Happy is. And the same with mad at God. You know, it can be me singing to one of my children, or it also can be God singing over us as well. There's a country love song to my husband called here in your arms. And again, it can be God singing over you or you singing over the person that you love. So, yeah, I don't. I think it's impossible to pick a favorite. It's such a ride. And then there's this song called morning to dancing that is on there. That is crazy. It's in three different languages. Because I was on a plane and I heard the clip of these guys singing, and I just started crying on a plane and didn't know them and didn't know the Portuguese artist. They didn't know each other. He had just featured. And so we got on a zoom call together and all met each other and did this thing together in three languages. And I just love that. It's like, completely unashamedly in three languages.

Chris Cootie

Yeah, I love that.

Jen Johnson

So. And it's just so fun. So. Yeah, it's. It's quite the Right. I encourage anyone who hasn't heard the project or even if you've only heard a few things from Happy to listen to it from start to finish, all the way through, at least the first time. So you can get a full sense of the album and kind of what it's saying in its entirety. But it's definitely a ride.

Chris Cootie

Just even listening to you kind of chronologically go through the album, it's an interesting picture of just hearing your pastoral heart for all these decades. And maybe God had you wait till now. I've heard it said that great pastors teach people how to live and how to die, and you've probably seen a lot of those highs and lows, and maybe you needed some of those years to be able to just create a beautiful picture of what life really is. It's not just a couple songs we sing on a Sunday or the teams that we lead. It's so much more and then some. And God's in every one of those details. The small or seemingly small are big in his eyes and so beautiful. Mosaic, I think, is the subtitle for Happy.

Jen Johnson

Yeah, exactly. It really is.

Chris Cootie

Okay. I love to ask this of people who have written songs that the global church is singing. If there was a song that you're like, gosh, I wish I wrote that song, what would it be?

Jen Johnson

Oh, hands down, what a beautiful name. I mean, hands down, what is it about?

Chris Cootie

What a beautiful name.

Jen Johnson

It's just one of the best worship songs ever written. In my humble opinion. My non. Humble.

Chris Cootie

In my humble yet very accurate opinion, I think it's pretty amazing.

Jen Johnson

I think it is. And I mean, and the writers are some of my best friends in the world, and they just are amazing. So I think. Yeah, I just think that it's. Anytime we can sing the gospel in its simplicity, you can't go wrong with that. You know, you can have all the songs in the world, but a song like that is just to stand out to me. So, yeah, I mean, I. I'm a worship junkie, so I. I love songs that just really are full of faith and lead the body of Christ on a Sunday morning. That's the song I want people to be singing about God, about who he is, about who we are through him. I don't like navel gazing songs. I know life's hard sometimes, but I just. I want to hear who we are and who he is, because that's. That's the point.

Chris Cootie

Yeah. Lift your eyes and look at how good the Lord is. Yeah, that's enough. Yeah.

Jen Johnson

Yeah.

Chris Cootie

Do you feel like we have too many of those navel gazing songs in the broader Church. We're not calling any shots here, but just I think about that as a. As a worship leader. The songs that we sing are the diet of theological understanding of our people, and we're teaching them something about God, whether we intend to or not. It's happening.

Jen Johnson

Totally. I just think we need to be mindful of what we're singing, you know, And I think that strong songs of faith that carry the gospel, I think bringing people and remembering that the song that you're connecting to as a worship leader who's probably been saved for a long time probably isn't necessarily what someone who's new to the faith that's come in for the first time might be connecting to. And so being mindful of that and asking the Lord to speak to you on which song to lead for that Sunday. We've had crazy testimonies of songs sung spontaneously or songs sung that people felt like they were supposed to lead. That didn't make any sense, but that was the person that, you know, had come in for the first time who. So I would just say be faithful to lead what you hear God leading you to do. Not just necessarily your favorite song. But yeah, I think that it's beautiful to watch how from start to finish, entering his gates with praise, declaring who he is, and then going from that into a time of worship. That's the journey that I. That I think is the absolute best to go on in each set.

Chris Cootie

I love it. Two remaining quick questions. How is Brian's golf game evolving?

Jen Johnson

Yes, Brian's favorite topic, other than, you know. No, it's probably just. Honestly, his favorite topic is he.

Chris Cootie

Is he literally standing in random places, both in public and in private, working on his backswing at all times? It's a normal part of the evolution.

Jen Johnson

Yes.

Chris Cootie

You're just going to have to live with it, Jen.

Jen Johnson

He's just picked this up with my son last summer, and it is his new personality. We say so. But my son, who's 18, they. They love it together. So it's. It's been cool to have them go out and, you know, it's great. It's great time on the course with the team. He takes a bunch of different people out and he's Mr. Community out there on the golf course. It's an outdoor sport. I'm happy with it. I think it's great. But I love it. He's obsessed.

Chris Cootie

Not only do you have a lot going on as a pastor at Bethel Church, you've got a team to lead, you're an artist yourself, but also Bethel Music has a ton of amazing worship artists. What's next? What's upcoming? What are you excited about for Bethel Music coming up?

Jen Johnson

We are just full of things happening at all times and so people are coming and going and writing and it's just a zoo. But it's exciting. I mean, there's every week here it seems like someone from our collective is in town writing and leading. And so I love it. It's just so fun to see God working and using all these people in our collective and just friends around the world. It's just amazing to see the songs. But for me, after people are like, are you touring this happy album? I'm like, probably not. Jesus has not told me to do that, so I probably won't be touring it. But honestly, I'm excited. I've got a couple co writes coming up. I've got a bunch of unreleased songs that I'm very excited to put out. So we're going to be recording this summer, writing this summer. There's a song that I'm going to release sometime this next year that's probably one of the favorites I've ever written. So I'm very excited about that.

Chris Cootie

What a more beautiful name.

Jen Johnson

Exactly. It fell right with Israel Houghton. So I'm excited about this song. So yeah, and Brian's doing an album. He's doing an album. He's got over 30 unreleased songs. So he's in the process of elimination right now. Our collective's working on another project that has. I mean, just the songs are so beautiful. So always songs, always traveling. We're heading to England in a couple months to do big church day out. And yeah, just worship School is sold out, but you can watch online at worshipyou.com, you can watch it. So I recommend it for anyone, whether you're a worship pastor, a creative, or just someone who has the heart of worship. You know, you can take the courses as well and they'll be applicable. Christine Cain actually has a message on the Worship U platform called the Dark Room to circle back to what you were saying earlier. That's one of the most profound messages on development that I've ever heard. So check that out. But yeah, Worship U is a great way for anybody who wants to learn and grow in any and all ways can check out.

Chris Cootie

Well, Jen, thank you so much for your influence in the broader church. The songs that you've been a part of, leading and writing. We're grateful for you and we're grateful. What a great way to wrap up this season of the podcast. Thank you for your ministry and your life blessings.

Jen Johnson

Thank you, thank you.

Chris Cootie

If you take one thing with you today, let it be this. You were never meant to do this alone. So get help. Stay planted. Stay anchored to the truth, truth even when your emotions are telling you otherwise. And be faithful in the hidden years because it's the off hours where a lasting ministry is built. Again, I want to honor Jen for her honesty, her pastoral heart, and for the way she has poured into the global church for so long. Be sure to check out Jen's new album, Happy. It's her very first solo project, which in and of itself is its own beautiful reminder that God's timing is rarely our timing. She describes this album as a mosaic, something beautiful made out of broken pieces. It truly is an album that sings you through the seasons of life, joy, through doubt, through grief, and right back to the goodness of God. Happy is out now wherever you listen to music. So be encouraged and remember, remember who you are and what is true.