Tim Barton

Had it not been for pastors involvement, we wouldn't even have had an America to begin with. We wouldn't have had a declaration, we wouldn't have had a constitution, we wouldn't have had a Bill of Rights.

Josh

The strategy is rewrite the past to control the future.

Tim Barton

If you're not seeing the spiritual decay of society and if you're not motivated to get involved, I don't think you're paying attention.

Trinity

Well, hey, Live Free Nation. Before we jump into the episode, this podcast is recorded right here at Lake Pointe Church in Dallas, Texas. But the Live Free Nation is spread all over the country and all around the world. So if you've been watching and thinking, man, I wish I could be part of something like this. We want to invite you to take a simple next step and that is join us for Church Online. Every weekend we stream our services live on YouTube, Facebook and our church online platform. And it's more than just watching a service. There are live hosts in the chat, prayer teams ready to stand with you and people all around the world worshiping together in real time. And so whether you're exploring the faith, coming back to church, or just looking for a place to start, Church Online is a great way to jump in and experience what God is doing here at Lake Point. We would love to see you in the chat this weekend and now enjoy the podcast.

Josh

Well, hey, Live Free Nation. Welcome to a very special 250th anniversary of the birth of our nation episode of Live Free. The Bible says, blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord. And you have been lied to immensely about the degree to which that has been true of our nation. So we're about to deprogram you from the matrix and debunk sin 6 very specific lies with the help of our mind blowing guest, Tim Barton. Now, if you could do this, if you could like, comment and share this episode, that helps us know that the extra time and effort that we put into bonus episodes is worth it. So like, comment especially on YouTube and share. That helps us know it's worth it. And then I've just been informed that 47% of our live Free listeners are not subscribed to the pod. That also helps us tremendously. So click the little subscribe subscribe button. Happy Independence Day week and enjoy the pod. Tim Barton, welcome back. Good to be here, bro. This is great. Okay. Hey, I. You are at least my first repeat guest on Live Free.

Trinity

Wow.

Josh

First one.

Tim Barton

Come on, let's go.

Josh

Okay, so here's what this is. This is. We're going to release this podcast the week of Independence day. Come on, America. 250, 250th anniversary of our nation. Last time you were on, we totally nerded out on so long it was a bro. But I'll be honest, that episode had one of the longest tales of any episode we've ever done. Like still to this day, that's one of the ones that people grab me and they're like, I just saw that. This has been amazing.

Trinity

Praise God.

Josh

Yeah, it's been incredible. I know, man. So here's what we're going to do. This can be a really interesting pod. We're essentially going to have you debunk seven myths that guys like me who grew up in normal American school systems and college programs that we got programmed about our nation. And then we're just going to have you deprogram us.

Tim Barton

Let's kick this pig.

Josh

I love it. Okay, now I wanted to say it

Tim Barton

in Spanish, but it wasn't very good.

Josh

So shout out Carlos Erazzo. Now, I do wanna say this. And by the way, he didn't ask me to do this. We don't get paid to do this. I only recommend books that I'm like, that book was so dang good. I want everybody to read it. I found out about this guy because of this book. I read it on vacation to Gulf shores few years ago. If you go back and I did a pod on the pope and the death penalty. And that's when I was reading this book. It's like an old live free episode. And dude, for real. I just wanna say it one more time. So somebody passed this to me and then I think your dad, it was either you or your dad reached out to me on X. I can't remember who. And then I. I couldn't put this down. I read it in three days, something like that, on vacation. And it felt like being deprogrammed from the Matrix. Yeah, I'm serious. It was. I felt like everything I had ever been told about the founding of our nation was like a complete lie. Y and. And it's just all source material. Like so again, I'm not getting paid for this. He didn't ask me to do this. I only recommend books. And I'm like, that was so dang good. I wish everybody would read it. So thanks for writing, bro.

Tim Barton

Thank you. Thank you.

Josh

Do you write your dad write it?

Tim Barton

We co wrote it. Our names are both on it. We had different segments and different people we highlighted. So we worked together.

Josh

And then.

Tim Barton

Which is an interesting Journey, by the way, working with your dad, somebody's been doing it for 30 or 40 years. And you're like, I have an idea. And he's like, we don't do it that way. And I'm like, but, dad, there's technology now. You don't have to hand write the draft. Like, he does it totally, but. Right.

Josh

What?

Tim Barton

It was Journey.

Josh

Your dad's a legend.

Tim Barton

He's incredible.

Josh

Yeah, your dad's alleged. So we're going to deprogram. Let me tell people where we're going. And because you, when I. When I say this, you're going to be like, oh, dang. Okay, so we're going there and then it'll make sense why we got you here. So I'm just going to tell you where we're going. We're going to start with these are all things I felt like I picked up in high school. Christopher Columbus was a racist genocidal colonizer who took and sold slaves. Then we're going to go, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, and most of the founders were deists, not Christians. Then we're going to throw up a mega viral Katie Couric clip that I felt like took over America for two weeks and respond to. America was birthed as a pluralistic, secular nation, not on Christian principles in any sense. That's a direct quote. I'm very interested to see where you go there. Then we're going to go. America was built on slavery, and I'm having you talk about the 1619 project. Then we're going to go. The American settlers committed genocide against the Native Americans and stole their land. We may even play a land acknowledgment. Okay, from the a stolen land acknowledgment, just what should Christians think about that kind of thing? Separation of church and state means Christianity and religion must be excluded from public life. And then this one lands on me. In particular, Christians, especially pastors, should stay out of politics and the culture wars. And you're just going to rapid fire.

Tim Barton

And that's all we're doing.

Josh

That's all we're doing. Happy birthday, America. Can I tell you one other thing before we get in?

Tim Barton

Yeah.

Josh

So last time you're here, I may have you edit this out. I don't know if I'm allowed to say this publicly. So in a couple weeks, I'm going on. And I don't know what he wants to talk about. When you were here, you showed me the first time one of these little guys. What is that? A hardshield Bible That's a hard Shield Bible. Will you tell the story real quick?

Tim Barton

It's from World War II. The Gideons partnered with the U.S. military during World War II to make sure every soldier could have a Bible. But for some of those that were deploying to some really rough areas, they made unique Bibles. It was called the Heart Shield Bible. They put a steel plate on the front of it. And the idea was you drop it in your chest pocket and it would keep your boom done. And it would keep your heart safe. Now if you get shot anywhere else, you're in trouble, but right there. And really it could stop and did stop bullets.

Josh

There's actually, actually I posted about this on Facebook and there were two people whose grandfather had one of these in the war specifically said. And one of them posted a picture.

Tim Barton

Come on.

Josh

One of them posted a picture where it stopped a bullet.

Tim Barton

Come on.

Josh

While their grandfather wearing it.

Tim Barton

Yeah. But the fact that the government partners with the Gideons who do the pocket New Testaments usually, you know, with psalms and proverbs in the back of it. Remarkable. And that wasn't controversial at the time. It was like, no, you need God's word and also you protect your heart with a steel plate. So super cool.

Josh

Well, and the president, like had a letter encouraging Correct. Soldiers to read the Bible.

Tim Barton

FDR has an acknowledgment in the front encouraging everybody to carry this with you to keep you safe spiritually and physically.

Josh

That's right. That's right. So anyway, when I go on, I'm planning to give him one of these gift and I'm pretty excited about it.

Tim Barton

That's incredible.

Josh

Thanks for the assist.

Tim Barton

Yeah.

Josh

Okay, well, let's. Let's get in, man.

Tim Barton

Let's do it.

Josh

Let's. Let's talk America 250. Happy birthday, America. So let's debunk some. I seriously feel like we're depending on programming people from the Matrix, so I'm just going to shoot these at you. Let's start right here. Tim Barton, Christopher Columbus, instrumental in the founding of our nation.

Tim Barton

Yeah.

Josh

We should tear down all the statues. We should get rid of Columbus Day. It's evil.

Tim Barton

Nope.

Josh

Okay, well, you're tipping your hat because Tim Barton, Christopher Columbus was a racist genocidal colonizer who took and sold slaves. He should not be celebrated. What say you?

Tim Barton

Yeah, so when I hear this claim, I, I like to ask questions to find out where somebody's coming from and how much they know. Because usually you deal with either the intentional or the ignorant.

Josh

We deal with that in theology. Too.

Tim Barton

But it makes a difference, right? Because Jesus talks about that. You don't cast your pro before swine. Like, you go somewhere, there's times when you shake the dust off your feet and keep moving. But there's times you got to dig in, right? There's times. No, I don't care if they stoned me and threw me out of the city. I'm walking back in, I'm not done. And you need to have some spiritual wisdom to differentiate who you're dealing with. And so I always want to know, am I dealing with someone who just has no idea what they're talking about, and maybe they have a good heart and have bad information? Or is it someone who's like, no, they're just full on drinking Marxist Kool Aid. And so you, you have a different conversation in those scenarios. So I always want to ask some basic questions to see where you're coming from.

Josh

I'm the. I'm going to be the first one here. That's what I've been told. Yeah, I've heard about him selling slaves and killing people.

Tim Barton

So which voyage did Columbus enslave the natives?

Josh

I don't know. I got. No, he made four, didn't he?

Tim Barton

Right.

Josh

Okay, okay.

Tim Barton

So what was the difference between the four and. I asked this because most people. Most people didn't even know there was four. So you're just the most brilliant pastor, but most people don't know there was four. The first one was a voyage focused on intending for exploration. And really he was trying to find a faster route to get over, right, to Asia, Eastern Asia, because at the time you'd had the Silk Road and you have the Ottoman Empire that comes in and they're attacking people, and so they can't use the land route anymore. And so how do we do this? And Italians were some of the best mariners there were. These are incredible people at the sea. But generally they're having to go north or south, like either around Europe and Asia or south around Africa. And he's like, guys, there's a better way. We know it's a globe. Now, he was correct in the globe. He was off big time in dimensions. Didn't know there's another continent there. In fairness, some people would say, but like the Vikings, other people had discovered. Right. Like kind of the Canada area. Some argue they made it as far as Minnesota. Sure. But where he was in Western Europe.

Josh

Wait, is that why they're called the Minnesota Vikings?

Tim Barton

Isn't that interesting?

Josh

Is it? Why?

Tim Barton

I believe that is the connection.

Josh

I believe Shout Out. NFL heart. Go ahead. Sorry.

Tim Barton

So the background of Columbus is he's looking for a shorter route, but the reason it matters is he's wanting to open up a trade route because he thinks we can make money by opening a trade route. So it matters because when he arrives, he's not on a mission of conquest. He's trying to establish trade. This makes a difference because if you're a salesman, right, we can think about, like, different people that are in sales. They are usually trying to be so smooth and sweet and get you on board. When he shows up, the first tribe he met were the Taino tribe. He actually writes back to the king and queen because Ferdinand, Isabella are the ones that actually fund the expedition. And they called it a meager expedition because there's only three ships, the Nina, Pina, Santa Maria that go. And he writes back and says, you will be so impressed by what we found. These are some of the best people we have ever discovered, and you will soon rejoice that they will be part of the Christian faith.

Josh

Bro, I'm going to read some of this. This blew me away. So I don't want to pull your punch. I'm going to read some of this. I didn't know how thoroughly Christian that dude was. Yeah. And that actually direct source quotes from your book. The guy actually had a missionary impulse. So anyway, you go ahead, keep going.

Tim Barton

Well, why don't you read this, because then I'll tell more of the story.

Josh

Okay. Dude, so I pulled four quotes from your book that blew me away because, dude, I did. I grew up seeing all the statues getting torn down and the protests and, you know, like, literally in my high school, and I'm like, rural Kentucky. This is not like Portland. Like, you know, hey, guys, we shouldn't celebrate too much.

Tim Barton

But if you don't know the story, you can believe a lie.

Josh

Okay, so that's what happened to me, Right? So I read stuff like this. All right. This is direct quotes to your book. As an avid student of the Bible, Columbus came to believe it was possible to sail across the Atlantic to reach people in Asia who had never heard of the God who is. And then you quote him. Quote. This is a direct quote from Christopher Columbus, the God who is the hope of all the ends of the earth and the farthest seas. He's quoting Psalm 65. 5. Okay, I'll give you another one. When he dies. This is from your book. His final words. He quotes, Jesus, into thy hands, O Lord, I commend my spirit. Quoting Luke 23:46 in a letter to the queen. This is what, like she. Apparently he's corresponding with her. You'll give me, you know, you probably give me some context here. And he's addressing sort of the. Hey, man, what you doing is like, actually really dangerous. And this is, Dude, I stinking love this guy. This is what he says. No one should be afraid to take on any enterprise in the name of our Savior if it is right and if the purpose is purely for his holy service. Okay, and then I'll give you one last one. This is. Oh, and then I want you to talk about this stuff with the Crusades. I didn't know, like, that was same time period as the Crusades. And so you'll get into that in a second. So that's fascinating. I may make you talk about the Crusades. We'll see here in a second. But he says this. So what some people apparently said about him was, dude, he just wanted to do conquest and see all these people's wealth and that kind of thing. So this is what he says. You write this, he tells us in a book he began in 1502, before his fourth and final trip. This work, which was called the Book of Prophecies, contains scores of scriptures he personally assembled addressing, quote, the propagation of the Christian gospel in distant lands. What an appropriate project for someone named Christopher, which means the Christ bearer.

Tim Barton

Yeah.

Josh

Okay, so. And I may have you talk about the Crusades thing, but so all this is speaking to who he is and his motives.

Tim Barton

But

Josh

because didn't he do some pretty bad stuff too?

Tim Barton

So that's valid, Right? So you're looking going now, wait a second. So I don't care if he's a Christian. What did he do? Like, you could say good things and not do good things, and then. Right, you actually are more defined by your actions and behavior than by your words. So it's clear from his letters, his writings, that he is coming from a Christian perspective of what he do. So he arrives, and again, this is where he writes the king and queen that he met the Taino tribe. And he says, these people are amazing. Well, they have three ships. One of the ships ends up running aground. More details on that. But for the sake of the brevity, he has to leave part of his crew behind because they can't all fit on these two ships. And that's that. Taino say, no problem. Like, there's this place over here, fresh water running down. So Columbus's men, they build this little fort, they're gonna leave them in behind. And this is In Columbus own writings where he says before they leave, they told us, hey, just so you know, we're not the only tribe here. There's another tribe. They're not nice people. And Columbus very skeptically is like, I don't think it's correct because they told me like they eat other people. That's crazy, dude.

Josh

This was interesting.

Tim Barton

Nobody eats other. Like that's crazy. Okay. So he leaves men behind, goes back, tells the king and queen and, and again like the letter already where he says this is the most incredible people. Again, he's going for exploration to set up a trade center. And he's like, we found an island. Nobody's all like we're going to have free trade. It's us. We're like, this is going to be the best thing ever. He goes back, tells the king and queen, they're like, that's amazing. Nobody's there. Okay, well we're sending over like 12 or maybe it was 1700 or 17 ships, 1200 men. We're sending over so many. Columbus tells the queen again, like this is in his writings. He says, I think you're sending some bad people. Many of the men that are coming, this is actual's quote, are not befitting the title Christian.

Josh

Columbus said this to the queen. Okay, keep going.

Tim Barton

Right. He's like, I don't think this is good. Like some of the people coming, that's not who we want to represent us.

Josh

Yeah.

Tim Barton

So they go over. Well this time it was not just a voyage of discovery, it was a voyage of colonization because they're going to establish a colony because this is where they're going to get their trade from.

Josh

Yeah. And when you say colonization, that word now in our culture, especially in progressive circles, has a negative connotation.

Tim Barton

Right?

Josh

You're not saying it a negative, you're just saying they're establishing a colony. Right.

Tim Barton

They were not going to take over and make everybody like them. They were going to set up a trading post. So they're going to build a little community. And in the community they're going to have trade with the natives. And again they're on this, this, they found this series of islands that are uninhabited by any other Europeans. And what the goal of what they wanted was trade. And they're like, we can build a little post with a port, our ships can come in, we can from like our little fort, our communities, we can gather all the trade goods. We'll come, we'll swap, we'll load up, we'll go. So they're not thinking colonization the way it's used today, they're going to build a colony for trade purposes. But as they go to build, Columbus already knows, like, some of these dudes aren't good people. They go to another, like, adjacent island. He says, we need to go back to the original island to get the men we left behind. He goes to the original island, and when he arrives, he finds that the fort that they had built is now destroyed, burned to the ground. And he begins seeing the bodies of some of the men on the beach

Josh

and some of his guys or the other.

Tim Barton

The natives, some of his men's bodies.

Josh

Oh.

Tim Barton

And as he goes closer, they're all dead.

Josh

Yeah.

Tim Barton

And he goes closer and realizes they've been cannibalized. They've been eaten. And he's like, what just happened? So he finds some of the Taino tribe, and they're like, we told you, like, there's another. Because at first he's like, what did you do? And they're like, it was not us. We told you, they're a tribe. In fact, they actually came and they attacked our village as well. That they kidnapped some of our women and children. And we just. We aren't strong enough to get them back. And Columbus is like, you tell me where they are. Like, I will solve this problem. The Taino joined Columbus. This is a big deal. Because when people talk about Columbus committed genocide, first of all, it was not genocide when the group of natives that he goes to war with already attacked and ate some of his men.

Trinity

Right.

Josh

Like, hey, here's the deal.

Tim Barton

When. If genocide is not an actual military conflict, but if you pick a war with someone who's bigger, tougher, and stronger than you and you get your butt

Josh

kicked, that's not genocide.

Tim Barton

It's not their fault that you suck at war.

Josh

And by the way, this can be applied to many modern things happening right now. Losing a war you started is not genocide.

Tim Barton

Oh, it's interesting thought.

Josh

Yeah. Let's just get that out of the way. Losing a war you start is not genocide. Anyway, Go ahead.

Tim Barton

Currently applicable.

Josh

I see. Currently. Once in place.

Tim Barton

Yeah, but this is where he ends up. They continue on as the settlement's going on, but they find where one of these, by the way, the village they were going after, the other native tribe that was there, they were known as the Caribs, which is where the word Caribbean comes from. They were also known as the Kanibs, which is where the word cannibal comes from.

Josh

Dude, I didn't know that the origin

Tim Barton

of the word cannibal so Columbus goes with the Taino. And by the way, the Taino are like, can we please come with you? Like the guys with the boom boom sticks. We're in. Let's go with you. So they go and they. In this village, they win this conflict. And so for the survivors who were not killed, from the Carib, the Caribbean tribe, Columbus does say, okay, so all the survivors, they can be enslaved. And that's what people are like. He enslaved them. This is literally in the 1400s, where there's only two options at the end of a war for the losing side.

Josh

You die or your slaves.

Tim Barton

That was the only option. So he's not doing something uniquely evil. He's literally doing what the entire world is doing. And this is not to, like, justify on a moral standpoint, but this is the reality. This is the world they live in.

Josh

That's right.

Tim Barton

This is the only option. In fact, for all of Columbus, four voyages, he never approved the enslavement of anybody who was not captured and justified war. That's really important.

Josh

Say that one more time.

Tim Barton

He never approved the enslavement of anybody who was not captured and justified war.

Josh

Fascinating. Okay, so, bro, which is the exact, like, high school. The vibe you always get is this guy just rolls in, starts slaughtering innocent natives, taking sled, you know, just for personal wealth and acquisition and gain. It's like, this is. This is why that book just blew me away. Is this literally, like, deprogramming?

Tim Barton

And by the way, it's like, all the stuff we're saying, this is from original documents.

Josh

Yeah, right.

Tim Barton

Like, the people that were there. So Columbus also had a couple, like, medical doctors with them, and they also kept journals. So, like, from the second voyage, when they attacked the Caribbean tribe. The tribe when. When they conquered this village, they say there was 49 huts in the village. And all the huts were locked from the outside. And they're like, that's curious. Why are they locked from the outside? So they go, and they begin to unlock and open these huts, and there were women on the inside and Columbus. And by the way, the doctors there, like, this is in their journal, they said the women were terrified when they saw us because, like, we don't know who you are.

Josh

Yeah.

Tim Barton

But when they found out we were not going to eat them, whoa. They were, well, relieved. And they told us that the Kariba men treat them with such cruelty that could scarcely be imagined that they eat the children that they bear to them.

Josh

Oh, and these are the quote, unquote, genocided.

Tim Barton

These are the people that were Genocided, Right. So literally, they were kidnapping women. They were impregnating them, which how that process goes, not voluntarily.

Trinity

And.

Tim Barton

And then they eat the children. And people like, I can't believe you committed genocide. I'm like, you have no idea what the story is. Now to jump ahead a little bit. So that's the second voyage. The colony is being set up. He goes back and he starts petitioning the king and queen, like, guys, I would love to be governor. Like, can I be. Please be governor? And he petitions. And finally they're like, I don't think it's a good idea because you're Italian, but you're selling for the Spanish. And our colonies, a Spanish colony, I don't think they're gonna look favorable on it. He petitions enough, they're like, fine, you can be governor. He goes back, he's the governor. He's not really a good governor, but partly one of the many problems he had. He was an explorer at heart. So he sets up these rules in place. And part of the rules were, you cannot steal anything from the natives. They did not value gold. And so men were like, ah, we want your gold. And they're like, we don't really care about it. And he says, you have to give them something of value in exchange for the gold. So, like, literally, when people like, he's just doing this to get wealthy. There's so much more to that story, which not to digress in this point. So he has gone a lot discovering on his third voyage over there, he comes back to find out that some of these Spaniards have begun enslaving, sexually assaulting, and even murdering some of these

Josh

natives, which he warned against. As you said earlier, hey, man, you're sending some bad dudes, right?

Tim Barton

Okay, well, now he's the governor. And he had already put laws in place that actually showed respect and decency

Josh

for the natives because he was a Christian man.

Tim Barton

He finds out what they did, and he gets the Spaniards that did it, and he publicly executes them.

Josh

Wow.

Tim Barton

Now you can imagine if you're in a Spanish colony and you publicly execute Spanish people, and they're like, who do you think you. You're Italian.

Josh

That's right.

Tim Barton

So they lead a revolt. They actually imprison him, put him in chains. They send him back before the king and queen. He gets back and makes his appeal and explains what actually happened. And. And this is, by the way, when the accusations come that he. He did all these evil things. It was made by the men that had done those very things that had put him in chains and sent him back. Which is also one of, like, the oldest tricks of the book. You accuse your opponent of what you're guilty of, right? You're like, you're not going to believe how bad this guy is. He did well. That's what they sent to the king and queen. He gets back and tells the story, and they're like, oh, so they exonerate him. They pardon him of all those crimes, but they're like, hey, so it's better if you're not governor anymore, because, like, this, we need somebody else. So he's removed governorship, but he's funded on his last voyage anyways. The whole thing, when you study the narrative, you're like, it's not that he's. He's a perfect guy, because everyone's a sinner in need of a savior. He's just not guilty of the sins. You're accusing him today.

Josh

He did. Yeah.

Tim Barton

And this is also when his last voyage was actually a shipwreck. The Spaniards from those colonies are so frustrated with them, he sends word, like, people on canoe, hey, we have a shipwreck. Can you send a ship and recover us? And they. They, like, neglect them. They're like, nope, we don't like you. You're on your own. So he's like, shipwrecked, I want to say. It's like, I don't remember the details. I think it's like a year and a half. I need to go look it up again. But he is there for a long time, praying to be rescued. He's finally rescued, gets back home, and ends up dying because of some of the hardness of what he dealt with. But his whole life narrative is so different than what people think today. In fact, even this idea that he really wanted to get wealthy is so misconstrued.

Josh

I'm read a quote, and then we'll move on to our second myth. But, dude, again, we don't have time to talk about all the awesome stuff, so. I didn't know that part of the Crusades were going on at the same time.

Tim Barton

Do you have the quote related to the Crusades?

Josh

Yeah, I do. I've got it right here. So. So, by the way, another myth for another podcast is, oh, look how evil the Christians were for the Crusades. Yeah, they just attacked the Muslims.

Tim Barton

Right.

Josh

You know, and you. I just. We don't have time to go into this, but essentially, no, that was. That was largely defensive wars reclaiming after, like, I think you said, like, 300.

Tim Barton

Over 500.

Josh

Over 500. Yeah. Unprovoked Islamic attacks on these. So anyway, it's around that time that the Crusades are happening. The Christians are trying to retake Jerusalem.

Tim Barton

Correct.

Josh

Okay, I'm getting this right. So then, so what people say about Columbus is he just wanted golden money. So then this is a quote. Okay. He requested to the queen, I guess. Okay, I'm gonna read it. That all the prophets of this, my enterprise may be sent in the conquest of Jerusalem. In other words, I don't want any of the money that have come from any of my explorations. Would you please give it to those guys that are trying to retake the lands that were taken from them by the. The Muslims. Is that right? Yes.

Tim Barton

So he was still going to make some profit, but he said everything above because he was getting. And I don't know, it was like 10%. He said everything above 10% that, like, I have. He said, can. Can we take everything we're making and can we send this to go reclaim Jerusalem for Christ Jesus?

Josh

Okay, so there you go.

Tim Barton

Yeah. All right, so myth number one, like, totally nonsense.

Josh

Yeah, totally nonsense. Okay, now this is the one we're going to. We hit. We're going to do our best to be brief on this, because this is one that is arguably the biggest or most prominent one. Tim Barton. George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin. Benjamin Franklin, and most of the founders. They were obviously deists. Tim.

Tim Barton

Obviously.

Josh

They're obviously deists. They did not want. They did not found and did not want our nation founded on or propagating Christian principles. Because obviously, Tim, all these guys were deists.

Tim Barton

True, False, Totally false. I don't have enough time to go through all of this. And honestly, like, we could do the entire pod on this one. And I don't even know if we're going to get to all the questions you have. I'm so sorry. Let me start with this one. This one. And actually Trinity, I think. Yeah, I think we have pictures. Can you go to the maxims of George Washington? And can you put up the maxims of George Washington? So there's a guy named Schroeder who actually did the collection when they did the first volume of Washington's writings. It was a guy named Jared Sparks. And so this guy, 1855, his name is Schroeder, he took through all of the letters of Washington. He said, here's the really cool things he said on these different issues. So here it is. That's 1855. That's a political and social, moral and religious maxims of George Washington. So he said, here are the most significant things George Washington ever said or did Trinity. Go to the next one. So you see, section four is Christianity. Now, the fourth section was actually the religious maxim. So we already are identifying his religious maxims. That's Christianity, right? That's as we're talking about. But when you start this, it's actually all of these things that you see. There are introductions to George Washington based on people that knew him. So, for example, that first line, Trinity. Click that next one for me. It says underlined underneath that. Will you click on that button for me? Trinity. For that I say JM Se. Click again. He was a firm believer in the Christian religion. Go to the next Trinity.

Josh

And these are people who personally knew him. Correct. So.

Tim Barton

So. So, for example, like Chief Justice Marshall, he became the chief justice, U.S. supreme Court. He was a soldier with George Washington, served under him during the Revolution. He said he was a sincere believer in the Christian faith. The next one is Elias Budino. He was the President of Congress. George Washington worked for him during the Revolution.

Josh

Right.

Tim Barton

He ends up being a judge after the Revolution. He said the General was a Christian. After them, you have J. Smith.

Josh

Okay, let me just. I just keep on saying this. This is why, like, when I read this stuff, it feels like getting deprogrammed with the Matrix. I'm not joking. Everything I heard for the first 35 years of my life were Washington, Jefferson and Franklin were ds. And by the way, you're. I already know what you're going to say in a few minutes. You're going to blow people's minds on Benjamin Franklin. Like, blow people's minds. And then. Are you going. Are you going to read the thing from Washington's granddaughter? Yes, I will.

Tim Barton

Yes, I will.

Josh

You're about to stinking blow people's minds. Keep going on this. Okay.

Tim Barton

Okay. So, Jay Smith. I was actually a pastor or. No, sorry, that's Devereaux Jarrett. But his pastor, Jay Smith, was another one of his soldiers he said was not ashamed of his Christian profession. The next guy, the Reverend Deborah Jarrett, he was one of the pastors, the churches where Washington attended during the American Revolution. He was a professor of Christianity. The last one, Jared Sparks, he's the guy that compiled all of the writings of George Washington. He said he was a Christian in faith and in practice. Now, the reason I point this out, and this is the original print of that 1855. This is the book. Every single person that knew George Washington says that about him. Well, there is a modern addition that was done. This is done in the 1990s and in this one it is done by a professor. And in this one, when they get to Trinity, go to the next one instead of introducing the religious section by the guys that knew him. No, they don't do that. This is the way he introduces the religious section. You see? Religious maxims.

Josh

So wait, this is the same source content.

Tim Barton

So yes, the book is the same. And the introduction to each section, instead of it being written by people that

Josh

knew George Washington, it's written by some modern professor.

Tim Barton

It's written by a professor who, by the way, this professor was also a historian in Mount Vernon for a little bit. So this is like a very noted professor. Look at the last paragraph. And Trinity. Wait just a second. And then we put it up. It says, a product of the Enlightenment, Washington's terms for God include a divine author of our blessed religion, divine providence, an almighty being who rules over the universe, Trinity. Click that for me. What? Like many deists, that's it.

Josh

Are you kidding me?

Tim Barton

Washington viewed the Supreme Being as overseer and protector of all, etc. Now, the reason, again, this matters. That's what I always heard, right?

Josh

That's what I've always heard.

Tim Barton

This is the modern narrative. Yeah, it's just not the real narrative. Okay, so let me walk through this more so Washington and I can tell so many stories, but real quickly, these are some of the first three volumes of the writings of Washington. So when Washington becomes the. The commander of the Continental army, it is June 19, 1775, when he gets that title, when it's signed off. So this is the very first general order he ever issues. Okay, will you hold that? And then can you just. Can actually, I think on this one, just read. And now I got to see it. Sorry.

Josh

You're good.

Tim Barton

Just read that section right there because we'll come back to others in a minute.

Josh

The general most earnestly requires and expects a due observance of those articles of war established for the government of the army, which forbid profane cursing, swearing and drunkenness, and in like manner requires and expects of all officers and soldiers not engaged on actual duty, a punctual attendance on divine service. Is that church services?

Tim Barton

That's church. Let me pause for a second. So this is the very first order Washington gives as commander of the military. This is his very first general order.

Josh

The first ever.

Tim Barton

The very first one. Okay, and. And notice how it starts now by. Starts as part of what we're reading, because there's a couple paragraphs before that, but it starts in the sense of. This is the first thing he tells the troops. He says, hey. Oh, go ahead.

Josh

So he said, a punctual attendance on divine service. So church services, quote, to implore the blessings of heaven upon the means used for our safety and defense.

Tim Barton

Okay, dude, dude, that's the very first order. Okay, so he acknowledges, guys, if he's

Josh

a deist, he's real bad at it. Real bad at it.

Tim Barton

Make sure you go to church, guys. But. But we can't afford to curse. We can't afford to get drunk. Anything that might offend God, we can't afford to do because we have to have God's help or we're not going to succeed. Okay, jump forward. And he gives hundreds of general orders. I've just chosen some that are easy and really fun. So this General Order is 1. Go to the one that is May 2, 1778. That is the general order that he gave at Valley Forge. That's what he gives. Before they leave. Just read some of that general order for us.

Josh

The commander in chief directs that divine service. So church services be performed every Sunday at 11 o' clock in those brigades to which there are chaplains, those which have none to attend the places of worship nearest to them.

Tim Barton

Hang on. So those who have none. If you don't have a chaplain, then you attend the closest place that has a chaplain.

Josh

It is expected that officers of all ranks will, by their attendance, set an example to their men. Dude, this is amazing. He said, if you're going to be officer in the. Well, I guess it wasn't the United States army at that time. What would they have called it?

Tim Barton

It was the Continental Army.

Josh

Continental Army. He's going, you gotta go to church. Yes, you gotta go to church.

Tim Barton

Oh, it gets better.

Josh

Okay. While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. It's amazing. Okay. To the distinguished character of patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian. Fascinating.

Tim Barton

Okay, what is more important to George Washington than being a patriot?

Josh

A Christian. Being a Christian.

Tim Barton

Dude, that's incredible. Okay, now this is the general. I mean, Josh.

Josh

And those are directly his words. Correct.

Tim Barton

These are the first two volumes of Washington. And again, like, this is what's crazy. Nobody even disputes this. Those are his general orders given to the military. And he's like, guys, what's more important than you being a patriot is you being a Christian.

Josh

Jeez, man.

Tim Barton

But we're like, no, he didn't really believe in God. Again, like, it's Nuts. All the things we say. Let me. Hey, Trinity, will you granddaughter thing.

Josh

Because I really want you teased me. And now I'm dying to hear what you're gonna say.

Tim Barton

Let me show you one more. Trinity, will you go to the one. That's George Washington. It shows a picture of him in battle. And it's right after. Right there. So this is George Washington in 1778. He writes General Thomas Nelson Jr. A letter.

Josh

Now, Thomas, is this a real picture?

Tim Barton

That is a real painting. Okay. I was like, Josh, yeah, yeah. I'm in my history nerd moment. I didn't know how to play along. So Washington is friends with Thomas Nelson Jr. Another guy from Virginia signs a declaration, then joins the Continental army, becomes a general. And George Washington is riding his friend. And he's like, bro, God is doing. He wouldn't say bro, probably.

Josh

And then he said, let's kick this pig. Sorry, go ahead. I'll stop being an idiot. He.

Tim Barton

He says, God is moving so clearly that, that, that it's. It's almost impossible to miss it. Trinity, go to the next one. So here's what he says. This is from the letter. The hand of Providence has been so conspicuous in all this that he must be worse than an infidel that lacks faith and more than wicked that has not gratitude enough to acknowledge his obligations. So just right there, he says, God's hand has been so obvious. If you can't acknowledge God's hand, you have to be either a non believer or wicked to not acknowledge God's hand because it's so obvious. But his next line is my favorite. But it will be time enough for me to turn preacher when my present appointment ceases. And therefore I shall add no more on the doctrine of Providence.

Josh

Wow.

Tim Barton

George Washington's like, Josh, I've seen enough miracles. I could become a pastor.

Josh

Wow.

Tim Barton

But for now, I'm going to focus on winning the war. Like, my present appointments. Again, like, these are not even disputed letters, but people. We have made a generalized belief off of broad information without any specific details. So people make a lot of claims without having information. So here's the last one, just for Washington. So George Washington had an adopted granddaughter.

Josh

I'm dying to hear what you're about to say.

Tim Barton

Her name was.

Josh

Dying to hear this.

Tim Barton

Her name was Nelly Park Custis. The guy that compiled the very first writings of George Washington was Jared Sparks. And as he's compiling the writings, he

Josh

says, nelly, you said this is his adopted daughter?

Tim Barton

Adopted granddaughter. So. So Martha had two kids from a previous marriage when she and George married because Martha was a widower. She had four kids. Two died, two survived. She marries George Washington. Her son ends up getting married, they have kids. Daughter ends up getting married. And let me think. I'm trying to remember which one I think it was. A son died, and then the son in law died. And so it's the daughter. I don't remember it's either the daughter in law, the daughter that had the kids. There was four kids, but the husband died and she had two kids under two. And then a kid of like, you know, four and six or something. And George and Martha, like, that's hard for a single mom. Why don't you let us help you? So she says, if you can watch the two youngest for me, that's great. So two youngest go and live with George and Martha. So Nellie Park Custis is the youngest. And. And I think it was daughter in law, but that had the kids. She lives with Georgia Martha at Mount Vernon for 20 years. And so Jared Sparks writes her after George Washington dies and says, so you saw him the last 20 of his life. What can you tell me about his faith? And so this is the letter where she writes Jared Sparks. And in this letter she says, well, what I remember is every morning he would go down to his study, he would close the door, and for an hour he would stand there for his quiet time. He would read his Bible. I don't know what else he did, but I know I wasn't allowed to interrupt him. It was very like his quiet time was very important to him. I know we were devout and going to church. He took me every single Sunday. We never missed a Sunday. And she starts giving anecdotes. And one of the anecdotes she says that we had an aunt that was very sick that came to Mount Vernon because they thought she can get better help here because they were more poor. George was more established. And so the doctor came over. She was laying on a couch. George came in one day, she was sick. He goes out to do work on the farm, comes back, she's dead on the couch. And she says, George Washington goes over, kneels down, lay hands on her, that God would heal her.

Josh

What?

Tim Barton

She says, literally in the letter, okay, which maybe, I mean, I know we're on a timeframe for the pod Afterwards, you gotta read the whole letter. It's amazing.

Josh

Praying, like Acts. He's like doing Acts 2, Acts 4 stuff.

Tim Barton

Right?

Josh

Okay.

Tim Barton

Like, yes, okay. Okay. So she concludes, and she gives several more like, anecdote examples of what she personally saw and Witnessed, she concludes a letter. Is it necessary that anyone should certify George Washington avowed himself, to me, a believer in Christianity as well? May we question his patriotism as his Christianity?

Josh

Oh, my gosh. Okay. So she's saying, like, hey, man, you'd be more credible to say he wasn't a patriot.

Tim Barton

Right.

Josh

That George Washington wasn't a patriot than that he wasn't a Christian.

Tim Barton

Right.

Josh

That's amazing.

Tim Barton

And again, these are the people that knew him personally. And one of the problems today is like, I've heard you guys talk about it before, kind of like the, the snobbery of the generation. And we're here and we're like, oh, we're so much smarter. We're so much better. Whatever else, we look back today and so often we try to input them things that is not evidence in any of their writings. You read their writings and you're like, bro, if literally you have a quiet time every morning you go to church, you're praying, laying hands on people that God raises them up from the dead. You're telling all your soldiers, like, it's better than being a patriots, being a Christian, like, how are you concluding that he's anything but this? It doesn't make sense. And he's only one. We could go through Jefferson or Franklin. And I know for the sake of time, we probably need to abbreviate this.

Josh

Give me one, give me like one, like one, maybe one example each. Jefferson. And by the way, I think we're both acknowledging on Jefferson and Franklin, we don't know. Right.

Tim Barton

And I don't think, I don't think either of them were Christians at the end of their life.

Josh

Oh, interesting. Okay, I don't.

Tim Barton

And there's reason for both of them, but both of them, it's because they, from their own writings, they viewed Jesus as the greatest prophet sent by God. They did not view him as a divine savior, where Jesus clearly says, right, that I am the only way to the Father. So as a Christian, we're like, no, you gotta believe in Jesus. That's kind of a core prerequisite. So I don't, I don't think where they land in their life. I wouldn't argue they're Christian, but they're not who they're thought of being today.

Josh

Yeah, give me maybe one example. Because what people. What I think the vibe I kind of got was, hey, man, Jefferson and Franklin, really, they were like, man, all religions are kind of the same. I'm really out on all of them. And that, honestly, they were kind of Hostile to Christianity. That's kind of the vibe I picked up in high school and college.

Tim Barton

Yeah. So would you look something up for me? I'm going to tell part of the story, and I want you to look this up. So what two books did Thomas Jefferson recommend students in Washington, D.C. should use to learn to read?

Josh

Okay.

Tim Barton

Okay. Now, the reason I say this. So George Washington. Not George Washington. Thomas Jefferson. Thomas Jefferson, too. I'm trying to talk about. Did you find that answer? Just let me know when you do. So Thomas Jefferson, when he becomes the president, he is the vice president under John Adams. When the Capitol building is built, 1800, he's vice president for, like, three months before he becomes president. He's the one that approves church to be held in the Capitol. He then three months later becomes president. He attends church in the Capitol religiously for eight years. Doesn't miss. But also, as the President of the United States, Washington, D.C. is the District of Columbia. It's a federal territory. They didn't even have a mayor until, like, the 1970s. So the president in Congress was in charge of everything that happened there. And by default, especially at Jefferson's time, he was a. A more or less honorary school board president. Like, they were like, hey, Mr. President, how do you want us to handle this? So he was assigning, delegating who does what literally for the school of Washington, D.C. and so he said, here's the thing. He. He wrote the reading plan. Here's the thing that when our kids learn to read, here's the two books they should use. Did you find what it was?

Josh

Man, this is just a generic, like, okay, overview.

Tim Barton

No, no, there's two specific books.

Josh

I'm getting Aesop's Fables and Robinson Crusade.

Tim Barton

Well, he said. He said every kid should read those at some point in their life. No, no, but learning.

Josh

Yeah. See, it didn't not give me anything.

Tim Barton

So let me ask Grok. What two books did Thomas Jefferson say that every kid should use to read when he was the president in Washington, dc? The two books he said. And I'm gonna wait for Grok to pull this up to confirm this. I mean, just so you can see it, he said every student should learn to read with the Bible and Isaac Watts hymn book. Now, it's amazing, right? The reason this matters is again, when people are like, well, Jefferson, he didn't even believe in the Bible. He cut out everything he didn't believe in. It's such a misnomer for who Jefferson actually was. And the reason is because when you go back To Jefferson. Hang on, I scroll down past it. Okay, that's the one.

Josh

Yeah, that's right there. Yeah. That's the first thing it said. The Bible and Isaac Watts, Psalms, hymns and spiritual songs.

Tim Barton

Okay, so that's what Jefferson said.

Josh

That's what Thomas Jefferson, as the president

Tim Barton

is that while he's President of the

Josh

United States, he's recommending that every kid

Tim Barton

should learn to read with a hymn

Josh

book and a Christian Bible.

Tim Barton

And the Bible.

Josh

Yeah. That's not the vibe I got.

Tim Barton

No. And this wasn't like. This wasn't when people were like. But, yeah, Jefferson cut out of him. He didn't believe in. So this is the first printing of the Jefferson Bible. It came out in 1904.

Josh

Yeah. Okay.

Tim Barton

Jefferson never printed a Bible. Okay, so. So why do we call it a Bible? In fact, if you look at the title of this book, it doesn't even say Jefferson Bible.

Josh

The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth. Now, dude, this was. Honestly, you ruined a sermon illustration for. Because I've been using the Jefferson Bible. He just cut out, you know, all the stuff he didn't, like, forever. And like, honestly, you go into this, that actually, that's not what he was doing.

Tim Barton

No. Now. And again, this is not a defense of him, like, being a Christian. It's just we're misrepresenting what he did. So this is the place where he actually handwrites every verse that he uses in this. And if you actually go through and read all these, he actually does talk about heaven and hell and angels and demons. He talks about miraculous things. Now, he doesn't include all the miracles. Unequivocally, he cut things out. But Jefferson, and he did this in 1820. He dies in 1826. The last six years of his life. He said, I wanted to study the moral teachings of Jesus because there's no greater moral teachers ever lived. So again, this is not like advocating he's a Christian, but it's pointing out that even what this is, is not what people think it is today. Similar with Franklin. Like, again, Franklin, I don't argue was a Christian, but Franklin was a huge promoter of the Christian faith, pragmatically knowing the benefit it gave.

Josh

I didn't tell you I was going to do this. Can I throw a caveat at you and just see what you do?

Tim Barton

Yeah.

Josh

So this is so one quote that people use to say, hey, the founders did not want our nation legislating from a Christian perspective or Christian principles. Is Jefferson quote in a letter to Thomas Cooper. Are you familiar? I'm sure you're familiar with this. February 10, 1814. And apparently he wrote, Christianity neither is nor ever was a part of the common law. What do you think?

Tim Barton

That's totally incorrect.

Josh

You're saying the quote's incorrect or Jefferson was incorrect.

Tim Barton

What Jefferson is saying there is incorrect. But also. So, Josh, anytime I hear something like this, the number one question I ask is, so what does the rest of the letter say? And what conversation were they having? Right. The questions I always ask is, is it true? How do we know? What's the source? What's the context? Is there more to the. Because right now you're looking going, oh, well, that's so clear. So here's the problem. Jefferson also criticized the law schools of the day, saying that they. They read Blackstone's commentaries and laws of England like Muslims read the Quran, like it's their only book. It's all they read. Well, why does that matter? Because Blackstone goes through dozens of pages saying Christianity is the foundation of common law, of common law. So. So it's fine that Jefferson says that. It doesn't mean that's true in America. In fact, Justice James Wilson, who signed the Declaration and the Constitution, was the original Chief justice in the Supreme Court and was the professor at one of the first law schools. It was the second law school in America in Pennsylvania. He actually taught that Christianity is impartial with the common law and that, like twin sisters, they run together. So Jefferson can have that opinion. But again, I would want to read the rest of the letter to see if there's even more context. Like, is he saying some people say this and, like, maybe it's right or wrong? Because. Because I think that I can point out the things that Jefferson wrote that would be contradictory to that idea. But even if Jefferson believed that, I would say he's wrong. And other Founding Fathers disagreed with him on that very moment, which is why of the Founding Fathers, they debated all the time.

Josh

That's right.

Tim Barton

And generally healthy debates. Right. But like you, I mean, you say, you say on the pot all the time, like, guys, we're big boys. It's okay if you disagree.

Josh

That's right.

Tim Barton

The Founding Father was totally big boys and disagreed a lot. And the problem is today people look at, like, Jefferson and they're like, well, if he said it, all the other Founding Fathers. And I'm like, no, no, no, no. Jefferson was far more of the anomaly of the Founding Fathers than he was in step with the majority of the Founding Fathers.

Josh

Yeah, I want to get into that. So on Franklin and Dude, what was really interesting about your book is really how you kind of trace how man his. His more like seemingly overtly deistic or things that sound a little more hostile. Christianity were earlier in his life and then apparently later in his life. I mean, you were reading something to me right before we started recording that was, like, insane. Like, he was rapid fire off the top of his head, quoting in a recommend, like, in an authoritative manner, right? Like New Testament.

Tim Barton

Big streams of New Testament, dozens of verses.

Josh

I'm gonna read one thing that I grabbed from your book. And again, what's so great about it is all source quotes. So Benjamin Franklin's speech to continental Congress. Okay? So, like, this is just one example. Like, dude, this guy's not like a deist. He's just like, ah. All religions are the same, and Christianity is not very great.

Tim Barton

So I think. Is this the one from June 28, 1787?

Josh

It start. I have lived, sir, a long time.

Tim Barton

So this is the one actually, at the Constitutional Convention. This is the one where as they're trying to write the Constitution, everything is falling apart. And it's so bad. Like, delegates are leaving. George Washington's like, guys, please stay. We got to figure it out. Franklin's the old guy, gets up and gives the longest speech he gave. So this is after the revolution. We're trying to write the Constitution. It's not working. And Franklin's like, I have a suggestion.

Josh

And this is what he says. I have lived, sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth that God governs in the affairs of men. And if. Now, for listeners, if you don't know your Bibles, you might not pick up on what's happening here. He's about to quote a bunch of New Testament passages without citations. So for you Bible nerds, listen to the biblical language he's using. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? By the way, that's fire. That's bars right there. We have been assured, sir, in the sacred writings talking about the Bible, right? Except the Lord build the house. They labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. And I also believe that without his concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of the Tower of Babel. And we ourselves shall become a reproach and a byword down to future ages. Now, I'm just gonna tell you, man, those are not the words of a guy who just thinks I'M not into the Jesus thing, and I don't like the Bible, and I don't believe that's. That's not what that is.

Tim Barton

No. So my. My favorite thing to point to is the 1776 Pennsylvania State Constitution. If people go to Section 10 in the 1776 Pennsylvania State Constitution, Franklin helps write that part. And Franklin says, before anybody can hold office, that they. They need to say and agree to this statement, or you can't hold office.

Josh

Let me read it. Okay, I'm skipping ahead. Let me read it. Okay, so let me set this. Okay, so this is the Pennsylvania State Constitution. Benjamin Franklin and James Smith, another signer of the Declaration. Right? Correct. Correct. They help author this. Correct. So this is for listeners. This is gonna blow your mind. So we're gonna get to this here in a second. You have no idea. I don't care who you are. You have no idea how much Christian sort of standards were written into all the, you know, many of the founding documents. So Pennsylvania State Constitution. Ben Franklin helps author this. This is what set up what I'm about to read. So.

Tim Barton

So yeah, that as. As you can go through so much of the Constitution because there's so many God references, religious liberty references, worship references, along the lines. But when we separate from Great Britain, all of the early colonies had British colonial charters. Well, now those are done, because we're not British colonies anymore. So every state has to do their own state constitution. And the majority of founding fathers end up spending time in their states advocating, encouraging, or participating in writing these state constitutions. Franklin is one of the guys who submitting suggestions, helping literally write the Pennsylvania State Constitution. This is one of the things he suggested.

Josh

So this is. Okay, this is. This blew my mind. Okay. And each member of the legislature, before he takes his seat, shall make and subscribe the following declaration. In other words, he's saying, in order for you to serve in public office in Pennsylvania, you must be willing to take the following oath. And this is what he says. I do believe in one God, the Creator and governor of the universe, the rewarder of the good and the punisher of the wicked. And I acknowledge the scriptures of the Old and New Testaments to be given by divine inspiration.

Tim Barton

Are you kidding me?

Josh

Like these. Ben Franklin is writing this in the Pennsylvania State Constitution and saying, you can't serve in public office unless you take

Tim Barton

that oath right now. The next line he says, and no other religious litmus tests shall be required. Now, also, it's a big deal because people look at the Constitution and they're like, you can't have a religious litmus test.

Josh

Right.

Tim Barton

But you've misunderstood even what they thought that meant. Because back then, a religious litmus test used to be like, you had to prove you were an Anglican, you had to prove you were Presbyterian or a Baptist. And they're like, no, no, no, no. You just have to prove that you believe in a general principles of God and morals and eternity and the Bible and then you're good to go. That's Franklin, the least religious founding father.

Josh

That's insane. Okay. All right, let's move on to the next one because these kids sort of build.

Trinity

Well, hey, before we get back to the episode, I want to tell you about something coming up at Lake Point that we're really excited about. This summer we're hosting at the Movies a four week sermon series where we'll use movie clips and stories to illustrate powerful biblical truths. It's one of the most fun and creative experiences we do all year here at Lake Point and it's designed for the entire family. Family. And so every weekend at our physical locations, we'll feature unique movie themed experiences, fun characters in the lobby for both kids and adults, incredible worship and practical teaching from the word of God, and of course, popcorn and drinks for everyone. So whether you are here and maybe you're a longtime churchgoer, someone who's been away from church for a while, or maybe you're looking for an easy way to invite a friend, neighbor, or co worker to church, this right here is the perfect series for you. At the Movies is an in person only event and begins July 11 and 12 and continues through August 1 and 2. And so if you're in the Dallas area, we'd love for you to join us at one of our campuses. You can find service times, locations and more information by texting the word atm to 20411. Now let's get back to the conversation.

Josh

Now this. So I want you to respond to something that went crazy viral. So Katie Couric, who by the way, try to have me on her podcast recently. Recently Katie Couric had this. This was like last month. And honestly, dude, it actually discouraged me. A bunch of my pastor friends liked this reel, okay. Which was not a great sign. But Trinity, will you go and play this? Because this is like. Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait. So this is like exactly. And go back to the beginning. This is like exactly the perfect encapsulation of what I grew up high school and college hearing and feeling. All right, let's go ahead. I would love to get your take on the rise of Christian nationalism in this country and around the world. The University of Massachusetts at Amherst recently released a poll that shows how Americans are feeling with the 250th anniversary of our country. That's this week. Happy birthday. And there's a huge divide between Democrats and Republicans on the extent to which the US should be a Christian country. Nearly 80% of Republic Republicans believe the US was founded as a Christian nation. 72% believe the government should advocate Christian values. 54% believe the US should be declared a Christian nation. And I thought this was really disturbing. Another Christian Public Religion Research Institute poll found that 56% of Republicans qualify as either adherents or sympathizers of Christian nationalism. Will you pause Trinity real quick? Because we're going on and you're going to respond to the next thing. But for people who are listening, whenever you hear the phrase Christian nationalism, that is 99.9% of the time, it's a scare label that's intentionally designed to stigmatize Christians advocating for their values in the public square. So essentially, I'll just shoot you really straight if you put in front of me and hey, man, your two options are atheistic globalism, like woke secular paganism, or Christian nationalism. I'm gonna go, well, heck yes, I'm that one. So 99% of the time, Christian nationalism is a scare label. That what it does, is it sort of. It non verbally says, I, as a secular person am allowed to advocate for my values in the public square. But you as a Christian, are not allowed to advocate for your values in the public square because that's scary. Christian nationalism. So really, when you hear that, if somebody goes, hey, Josh, are you a Christian nationalist? I'm like, well, I'm a Christian and I love my nation. If that makes me a Christian nationalist, okay, I don't care, whatever. But. So this is what she's saying here. I want you to know the play that's being run on you people stigmatize to divide is what. So let's stigmatize the phrase so that we can keep you from advocating for your vows in the public square. Which, by the way, we're just going, well, God's commands are not burdensome. That's actually what's good for people, societies that sort of families, all this. So we want that stuff. So now watch what this professor says. And this is what you're going to respond to what's going on here. So, Katie, you've called me professor three times already, and I'm going to take that As a license to make a really incredibly boring academic point, which is that. Or maybe it's not so boring. Maybe it's more fundamental. You also can't do democracy without history.

Tim Barton

So those views that people hold, some

Josh

of them are views about the past, and they're wrong. The United States was not. I mean, there are issues on which you can be right and wrong, and this is one where you can be wrong. The United States was not, in fact, founded on Christian principles in any sense. It's simply not true. Pause. So I would like you to respond to.

Tim Barton

Hey, hey, Trinity. Will you pull up that letter of Thomas Jefferson. Excuse me. Of John Adams to Thomas Jefferson. So the picture of the very beginning, it shows John. That's the one. Okay, so in 1813.

Josh

We're going right into it. Let's go.

Tim Barton

So John Adams writes Thomas Jefferson a letter. This is late in life. They're becoming friends again. They had some hardships along the way, and so he writes them a letter.

Josh

And. And John, by the way, John Adams, one of the Sounders. Declaration of Independence. One of the founders of our nation, correct? Yeah.

Tim Barton

First vice president, second president. One of the most significant, in fact, 250 years that we're celebrating. He's the guy responsible for so much of it. He's the one that nominated that George Washington would be our commander in Chief. He's like. Literally, he's. His fingerprints are on almost everything in the American founding. Super important. Founding father. But he writes Thomas Jefferson. He's like, remember four years ago when we were together, we were so young, ambitious. We had so much disagreement. We had all these issues. He said. But when we got together as a group, in the midst of our frustration, we finally found common ground. The letter's like four and a half pages. I just pulled one sentence from it. But I would encourage people go read it, because there's literally paragraphs on this. He says, the general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity.

Josh

That's amazing. So let me just. Let me contrast these things. The quote from the professor with Katie Courage is, the United States was not, in fact, founded on Christian principles in any sense. That's simply not true. Then John Adams, who founded the nation, is saying, the general principles on which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. That's incredible.

Tim Barton

Yeah. So. And Trinity, if you'll go with me for a second. So the reason people think this is. If you look at the Founding Fathers, we're often told, hey, right, these guys were largely secular, they were atheists. Anoxidious, that's what we're largely told. We click on that picture and just kind of walk with me as we do this. So this is the famous painting of the Declaration. Well, that's not the first time they met. The first time they met. That's the painting of the first time they met.

Josh

Really?

Tim Barton

That painting is known as the first prayer in Congress.

Josh

Bro, these guys are on their knees, okay, praying, right?

Tim Barton

Like literally, if you've ever been to a prayer meeting, that's what it looks like. Okay? So John Adams actually writes Abigail letter and says, abigail, when we first met, the very first motion was made by Mr. Thomas Cushing. He's the guy over on the left side. And he said, when Thomas Cushings made this motion, the motion was that we should begin with prayer. And there was some discussion. Finally we agreed we'd bring in the local pastor, the Reverend Jacob Duche. He's the guy behind the pulpit, and he led us in prayer. So this is literally in the records of Congress. Now when he shows up, it's the next morning. So this painting is from September 7, 1774. But the records of Congress identified the first thing they do that morning is open with prayer. And then there's a gap in the schedule and the next thing that happens is more than two hours later. Now why would that be?

Josh

Wow.

Tim Barton

Because the opening prayer lasted for two hours.

Josh

They prayed for two hours.

Tim Barton

The guys who were there, chills down my spine. The guys who were there, literally, it's in their journals, it's in their writings. But, but John writes Abigail and says, Abigail, when, when, when we first met Thomas, Brother Jacob to Shea, he comes up to pray and he opens the Book of Common Prayer, which was the Anglican prayer book written back in the

Josh

head, by the way, still used today.

Tim Barton

And he began reading some of the prayers, but then he broke out in extemporaneous prayers. And it was so moving that actually one of the guys there said it was so moving, even the stern Quakers had tears running down their cheeks because God was moving. In this extemporaneous prayer, somebody suggested they should read the Bible. And so in the Anglican Book of Common Prayer, it also has chapters ascribed for every day of the year. So it's a Bible reading plan. So they read the chapters and John says, abigail, it was as if God himself had ordained. This is all the flutter. It's as if God himself had ordained that to be read that morning. And this is his quote to Abigail. He says, abigail, I must beg you to read that psalm. Read the 35th Psalm to your friends. Read it to your father. Psalm 35 is one of the psalms that David writes. When Saul's chasing him, David's fleeing. And he says, God, I've done nothing and he seeks my destruction. Lord, you rise up, be my shield, my buckler, my strong right arm. And John says, abigail, you must remember that as this is happening, we had just found out the night before the British have surrounded Boston, that they're cannonading, firing their cannons in the Boston, which also then, like, it's even logical when, when they meet, they're like, I think we should pray. Like, we're literally under attack from the most powerful military in the world. We should have a time of prayer. But then this prayer turns into Bible study. They're reading Psalm 35 and John says, abigail, you've got to read this. Well, literally, the guys who were there all kept journals, so they all document this. But if you keep going and you can find this in the letters of John and Abigail. John writes Abigail another letter. And then his letter says, abigail, we've appointed a continental fast. The Continental Congress calls a nation to a day of prayer and fasting. He continued, he said, millions be upon their knees at once before their great creator, imploring his forgiveness and blessings, his smile on American council and arms. So John Adams saying, abigail, this is going to be amazing when millions of Americans are praying. Well, there's only 3 million columns at a time, but he's saying, no, no, everybody is going to pray in this. And just for the fun sake of this, will you skip ahead to the one that shows John Adams by himself right there at his desk? Okay, so John Adams, after this day of prayer and fasting, it's a couple months later, he writes, Abigail. And he says, abigail, it is amazing the things that are happening right now. And he goes through this list in this letter, and the letter is October 26, 1777. So this is now. Months have gone by, but he says, abigail, he says, first of all, like Colonel Smith and his men, the British attacked, they repelled him. And he goes through like all these things that shouldn't have happened when you fight the most powerful military in the world. And they did. But the reason I love this letter is the last thing he identifies. He says, we just destroyed a 64 gun British man of warship and a 20 gun British man of warship. Now that doesn't sound impressive that we're blowing up like their naval vessels. It's impressive when you realize we didn't have a navy yet. So the. When we separate From Great Britain. All of their naval vessels were them. We don't have a navy, so we, we did have businessmen who had like shipping vessels. So we took whatever, whatever vessels we had, we took whatever cannons we could find and we'd outfit them on those shipping vessels. The Smithsonian Museum of history in Washington, D.C. has one of the very first ships in the American navy. Josh. This is one of the first ships in the American navy. It's called the gunboat Philadelphia. Are you.

Josh

That thing that's. It took down a. You said a 20 gun.

Tim Barton

So it was a 64 gun British man of warship and a 20 gun. Now that's not the. That's not the actual one from the battle, because the one from the battle didn't exist anymore. But that's one of. They say that's one of the very first ships in the American navy.

Josh

So we had stuff like that.

Tim Barton

That's what we're fighting.

Josh

64 gun armada.

Tim Barton

And you have to ask a question like, so what did you row really fast in the direction like, how are you pulling this off? And this was the point. John Adams wrote Abigail a letter after this where he says, abigail, I was eating dinner at a tavern and there were men eating dinner behind me. And they were talking about, how does this happen? And one of the men said this as his explanation. It appears to me the eternal son of God is operating powerfully against the British nation. So not only did the founding fathers recognize that Jesus was part of the story, the American citizens did Trinity go to the one that the three guys past this, the three guys at the end right there. So when the American Revolution ends, and this is to put a bow on the Katie Kirp clip, those three guys on the left is John Jay. The middle is John Adams. Rights, Benjamin Franklin. They're the three guys that signed the peace treaty that ends the American Revolution. This is the peace treaty. It's called the Peace Treaty of Paris. It's on Display in Washington D.C. on the left, you see there's four signatures. The top one with the ribbon is David Hartley, the British ambassador. Then you have John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, John Jay. Now, Josh, this is a document that ends the American Revolution, brings peace, pronounced in Great Britain, and establishes America as a free and independent nation. Okay, the top right, Trinity, click that next button. Look at the title of this document. In the name of the most holy and undivided Trinity.

Josh

Wow. Trinity. Wow. Good job, Trinity.

Tim Barton

Well played. But here's, here's interesting. Kate, did you know we became a nation in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Josh

It never heard that literally before this moment.

Tim Barton

And this would be my question, like, hey, Josh, how many textbooks have you seen that in the document that made America a nation?

Josh

So right there. So that's insane.

Tim Barton

So when people are like, no, we're not a Christian nation. And like the guy, the professor says, well, like, it's obvious we know this. What document are you basing it on? Because literally the very first motion of the first meeting was to open with prayer. The most famous painting of the first Continental Congress is them in prayer. Like, you start tracking through this. These were not secular guys. These were people that knew if God wasn't part of the story, we were never going to succeed. In fact, so much so that as we're celebrating independence. Right. Right now, happy 250. That's a document that made us a free, independent nation. Now, obviously, we're celebrating the Declaration in

Josh

the name of the Trinity. That's insane, right? In my entire life, I've never heard that. So let me give for people or I'm going to pull something up real quick. Now.

Tim Barton

I know I've already run us down

Josh

the clock a long ways. We're going to keep going, man. It's America 250. How often are we going to do this? So I'm going to give some other examples. So first of all, more than anything else, this is what you guys book, like, just blew me away. I mean, literally, you're tossing out 10, 15 quotes. There's hundreds of pages of original source quotes.

Tim Barton

There's over a thousand footnotes back to original documents.

Josh

Okay, so I'm just going to give a couple others. So for somebody that's like, hey, man, our nation was not. I'm going to give the original quote that went mega viral from a professor in the United States on Katie Couric, right. That America was not in any sense, he said, founded on Christian principles. I'll give a couple others just from your book again, John Quincy Adams, the founding father, son of the founding father. John Adams personally knew most of the founders. He too recognized they were predominantly Christian. Declaring, and this is a direct source quote from the day of the Declaration. The people of the North American Union and of its constituent states were associated bodies of civilized men and Christians. They were bound by the laws of God, which they all, and by the laws of the gospel, which they nearly all acknowledged as the rules of their conduct.

Tim Barton

Can we pause for a second? Because that would be like your Jefferson and Franklin saying, like the rules of the gospel, that is Christianity. So not all of them were Christian, but nearly all of them, there's a couple exceptions, but the overwhelming majority were professors of Christianity.

Josh

And that's what these, the guys who were actually there are saying, that I'll give some more. In 1854, the US Bro, this kind of stuff is like, I mean, seriously, you just feel like, I've been lied to you my whole life. Life. In 1854, the U.S. house Judiciary Committee, this is the official governing body of the United States. The U.S. house Judiciary Committee similarly affirmed, quote, christianity was the religion of the founders of the republic and they expected it to remain the religion of their descendants. This is the U.S. house Judiciary Committee in 1854. Attorney, will you throw up that screenshot of the National Call to prayer? Okay, so this is like one of the calls. You have this in your book. This is one of the calls. This is the original document, original language, National Calls to Prayer. I quote, these calls to prayer were not bland, vague or deistic. They were explicitly Christian. For example. And this is it. In March 1776, the founders asked the country to observe. The founders asked the country to observe a day of humiliation, fasting and prayer that we may, quote, appease his righteous displeasure and through the merits and mediation of Jesus Christ, obtain his pardon and forgiveness. I'm going to give just a couple others. These are the ones that blew my mind the most again. We already read the Pennsylvania State Constitution. You couldn't serve in public office in Pennsylvania without swearing allegiance to the New, the Old and New Testaments in Jesus Christ. This is same thing. This is the Delaware State Constitution at the founding of our nation. Okay? Every person who shall be chosen a member of either house or appointed to any office or place of trust, shall make and subscribe the following declaration, to wit, I do profess faith in God the Father and in Jesus Christ, his only Son and the Holy Ghost, one God blessed forevermore. And I do acknowledge the holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration. You couldn't serve in public office in Delaware without. Okay, just imagine. This is one more. This is Massachusetts, Massachusetts state constitution again, 1780. So this is four years after the

Tim Barton

founding of our nation, worth saying in 1780. So several estates, it took them several years to figure out the wording, but partly also because in some of these states, there's active war raging. And so like in their capital cities where they were meet, they're like, we can't meet right now. There's literally. It's filled with British soldiers in war. And so these are still Considered the original state constitutions, even though they came a little after 1776. Because that's the first time they can get together and figure it out.

Josh

Okay, interesting. Okay, so this one, written with the help of declaration signers, Sam Adams, John Hancock, Robert Treat, Paine and John Adams, as well as constitution signer Nathaniel Gorham. Okay, so this is again, you have to take this oath to serve in public office in Massachusetts in 1780. Any person chosen governor, lieutenant governor, counselor, senator, or representative, and accepting the trust, shall before he proceed to execute the duties of his place or office, make and subscribe the following declaration. I do declare that I believe the Christian religion and have a firm persuasion of his truth. Then you got Katie Couric spouting off,

Tim Barton

we're not a Christian guy.

Josh

Not in any sense where we found it. Okay. And then I'll do one last one. There's so many things. Dude, these are just the things that absolutely blew me away. So all I'm gonna do right here is read the prayer of the First Continental Congress. That's all this is. I'm sure you know where I'm going here. This is the prayer. First Continental Congress. O Lord, our heavenly Father, high and mighty, king of kings and Lord of lords, who does from Thy throne behold all the dwellers on ear and reignest with power supreme and uncontrolled over all the kingdoms, empires and governments. Look down in mercy, we beseech Thee, on these, our American states who have fled to Thee from the rod of the oppressor and thrown themselves on Thy gracious protection, desiring to be henceforth dependent only on Thee. To thee have they appealed for the righteousness of their cause. To Thee do they now look up for that countenance and support which Thou alone canst give. Take them therefore, Heavenly Father, under Thy nurturing care, Give them wisdom of counsel and valor on the field. Now, I'm going to skip forward. Okay, I'm going to get down to this part. Okay, so the prayer ends like this. Preserve the health of their bodies and the vigor of their minds. Shower down on them and millions. They here represent such temporal blessings as thou seest expedient for them in this world and crown them with everlasting glory in the world to come. And then here's how it ends. All this we ask in the name and through the merits of Jesus Christ, thy Son and our Savior. Amen. That, ladies and gentlemen, was the first prayer at the first Continental Congress. And then fast forward 250 years and you have people saying in no sense was our Nation founded on Christian principles in any way.

Tim Barton

It's crazy.

Josh

Now, I'll just say this. Let me do a little Bible commentary, and then we're going to rapid fire these last myths. So if you get. I got a little explanation for why this is. What you're seeing is literally you're seeing Romans 1 in action. Yes. It says that when people exchange the truth of God for a lie, it says that they, quote, suppress the truth in their unrighteousness. So whenever an ideology becomes an idol, and by the way, secularism is an ideology that becomes an idol. Whenever an ideology becomes an idol, truth suppression begins to happen. What does truth suppression look like? It looks like rewriting the entire founding of our nation so that it doesn't sound like it was in any sense Christian. Now, why do they do that? I'm going to give. I just want to give of the strategy. Here's the strategy. Rewrite the past to control the future.

Tim Barton

Yes.

Josh

I just want to say that one more time. If you're a Christian trying to figure out, like, dude, why are they always doing this? It's like there's volumes of counter evidence. Why are they always trying to erase all this? The strategy is rewrite the past to control the future. If we want the future of a nation, a society, a culture, to be a godless, secular, honestly, gospel opposing future, well, then we have to rewrite the past.

Trinity

Right.

Josh

In order to control the future. That's the strategy. That's why dudes like that are really important. That guy right there. Do you want to rapid fire these last ones?

Tim Barton

I would love to, and I'm going to really work to abbreviate it.

Josh

Yeah, we'll do our best. Okay. You got a little chart on this guy. Tim Barton. America was uniquely. It's uniquely racist, and it was uniquely built on slavery.

Tim Barton

Yeah. So I don't have time to really debunk this as well as we could,

Josh

but the bottom line, this could be multiple podcasts just on what's true and not true about the way neither of us are saying, oh, no, slavery took place and there was no sin that took place. Obviously. Like, you know. Yeah, no, but it's like looking.

Tim Barton

It's like looking at one of the heroes of the Bible, King David, and you'll be like, well, he's disqualified because he had an affair and murdered Uriah. And it's like, we're not saying that didn't happen, but also, if that's the only thing you know, you don't know the whole story. And there's A lot more context. Like, he wasn't called a man after God's own heart because he was a sinner. He was called a man after God's own heart because of. Of what God put in him and what God used him to do, of what came out of him because of what God was doing. Not to digress too much, but a lot of people look at America and they're like, no, that's. That's stain is all that matters. And they also divorce it of the context from the rest of the world. So one of the questions I love to ask, okay, 16 or 1700s, this

Josh

is really important, right? What. What.

Tim Barton

What nation of the world didn't have slavery in the 16 or 1700s?

Josh

There were none.

Tim Barton

There were none.

Josh

Yeah, there were none.

Tim Barton

And like, again, this is not a defense of America. What I am pointing out is America is not uniquely evil. America participated in the same evil. It was evil. It was the same evil everybody else in the world was participating in. And to go further, when people want to villainize the Founding Fathers and they're like, yeah, but all the mad slaves, first of all, they didn't all have slaves. And I won't take a lot of time going through and debunking that. But the bottom line is the majority of the Founding Fathers were actually people that came out against slavery, against the slave trade, supported abolition movements, and many of them never had slaves. And many of them actually freed the slaves they did have. They changed positions. Again, not to spend too much time there, but the point I would ask people, when they make these claims is, okay, so 1700s, when the founding Fathers are alive, what leaders in the world can you name that had money and power and didn't have slaves anywhere in the world? And again, it's. Because what we do is we put the Founding Fathers in a uniquely evil category when the reality is, no, this is the culture of the world that at the time. Right. If you back up historically, Joseph, from the Bible, Genesis has a coat of many colors, Right? We know his story. His brothers get jealous, they throw him in a pit, and then what happens? Oh, the brothers sell him to who? Slave traders. The Bible says slave traders from Egypt. Why does it matter? Egypt's in Africa. There was already a slave trade in Africa in Genesis. Okay, so again, like. And this is not, like, disparaging to Africa, though. This was the way the whole world was.

Josh

This is everybody.

Tim Barton

Yeah, the whole world. So when we pretend like the Founding Fathers technically evil, it's. It's totally wrong. But then when we distort the story even more for political agenda and narrative. It's stupid. When you look at the 1619 Project that says America was started in 1619 when the first slaves arrived here. Well, it's kind of. The claim they make is kind of true, but it's super misleading and very dishonest because there were slaves that arrived in American shores in 1619. That. That's totally true. It's also true slavery was illegal in Jamestown in 1690.

Josh

Really? I didn't know that.

Tim Barton

So what happened is background context. Jamestown becomes a colony. 1607. They're under the British charter, but slavery is not approved for this British colony. It's illegal. What is approved. And this is where people are like, you're being nuanced. No, there's very specific details that are different. What was approved was indentured servitude. But here's why it matters. Indentured servitude was for a specified period of time.

Trinity

Yeah.

Josh

Debt repayment. Largely debt repayment.

Tim Barton

Correct. And at the end of that time, in the Virginia colony, regardless. Regardless of how you got your indenture, when your indenture was over, not only are you given freedom, you were given your own parcel of land. So here's the crazy thing. So these there. There was an actual slave vessel, was a Portuguese slave vessel, and there was a group of British sailors that were privateers selling under a Dutch flag, which basically meant they were, like, working as contractors for the Dutch, and they got to attack other ships that were against the Dutch in the common conflict. Not to digress. They attack this Portuguese slave trading ship. They overwhelm it, and they say, we're taking, as some of, like, the treasure, the booty. We're taking 19 slaves. We're gonna sell them and make money. The closest colony they can go to is Jamestown. They go to Jamestown, they say, we want to sell some slaves. And they're like, we don't really have slavery here. And they're like, okay, what do you have here? And they say, we have indentured servitude. They're like, cool, we want to sell you some indentured servants. Those 19 slaves are sold as indentured servants. But what is really important to the story is there's actual record that those 19 slaves that were there, they served their indenture by 1633. There's. There's not only evidence they were freed, there's evidence that one of specifically this guy's on. On the record, 1633, one of the men who had formerly come as a Black indentured slave servant in 1619. Not only was he free, he was indenturing other people to come work on his farm.

Josh

Wow. Because it was just. That's kind of.

Tim Barton

That's just what you did.

Josh

Right.

Tim Barton

Like, it wasn't a hot take, but. But here's where it's a hot take. That Portuguese slave trading ship was on its way down to Cuba or Jamaica.

Josh

If.

Tim Barton

If they would have arrived to Cuba or Jamaica. The average lifespan of a slave working in Cuba and Jamaica at that time was about one to three years. Because of the brutality of how they were treated and the sugar cane, whatever else they were doing. Right. The gold mining, all the. The things they were doing. Brutal conditions. Here's the hot take, Josh. The best thing that possibly could have happened to those 19 slaves aboard that Portuguese slave trade ship was they were brought to these shores in America.

Josh

Oh, wow.

Tim Barton

Because had they gone to Jamaica or Cuba, they probably would have died one to three years. Now, the only reason I'm saying this, it's not to say there wasn't slavery in America, but it's, again, it's pointing out that even what we think we know of the story is so crazy incorrect. And again, it would take pods to go through this multiple conversations. But I want to jump ahead because the bottom line is, is that there were two early colonies in America. There was Jamestown, there was Plymouth. Plymouth were people that were motivated by Christian principles. And that's also from. From Plymouth, you have Puritans. Well, the pilgrims come in 1620. The Puritans come in 1630. And. And that's where you have the Massachusetts Bay Colony. But it's all kind of up in that region. There was a really, really famous show.

Josh

This, this is fascinating.

Tim Barton

There was a famous image done. And I don't know, we're kind of where they came.

Josh

Put it up in post, but perfect. People can see it better. So.

Tim Barton

So over on this side, it shows that the two early colonies right here, Jamestown, there's actually a gold coin, and on the coin it says Mammon.

Josh

And when was this drawn?

Tim Barton

This came out at the end of the Civil War. It was in the Reconstruction period. And this map was done telling kind of the story of the legacy of America. Because part of the conversation even back then was like, hey, like, not all of America was actually promoting and supportive of some of the evil institution of what slavery was.

Josh

And so. So this is 1870, 1888 is when

Tim Barton

it was first published, but they're working on it for a while. And again, this is published because there's already a prevailing narrative telling part of the story up here is Plymouth and there's a book and it's a Bible. And what they show is right when, when Jamestown. By the way, Jamestown found as a Christian colony, had a Christian charter, early chaplain, pastor leading them. But they definitely were motivated by things other than biblical ideals in many ways. And so when they start pursuing mammon. Right. Money, they actually go very bad directions. So it shows that God's curse of slavery and what happens. And actually in all these drawdowns, it will. It shows things like the Kansas Nebraska act, the Missouri Compromise, the Fugitive Slave Law, it shows what resulted from that. But then up here, where you have Plymouth built on the Bible, God's blessing of liberty, and it shows how the majority of the nation actually was more impacted by Plymouth than Jamestown. And again, the reason it matters is like the 1619 Project, they made no mention of Plymouth or the Massachusetts Bay Colony, nothing north. Why? Because that doesn't fit any part of the narrative. And we are arguably far more influenced by the Plymouth Colony, by the Massachusetts Bay Colony, by the Pilgrims and the Puritans. That was far more impactful to America's foundation than was Jamestown.

Josh

Wasn't there some story that you mentioned about like a slave ship that ran aground and then the. Up there in the. In the north.

Tim Barton

Yeah. So 1641, they pass a law against man stealing, which was actually from the Bible.

Josh

Yeah, that's right. Oh, by the way, punishable by death. Death, correct. One of the few things. It's like there's six or eight things in the Old Testament that are punishable by death. Man stealing. In other words, stealing people in order to make them slaves was punishable by death in the Bible. By the way, that's. That. That was a lot of the foundation on which the abolitionists stood.

Tim Barton

Correct.

Josh

To oppose slave William Wilberforce and all the Christians who oppose slavery. So. Yeah, go ahead.

Tim Barton

So that. That was also in the Massachusetts Bay Colony, that was punishable by death, which was from the Bible. And they actually put the Bible verse beside the actual law, which is. Is so fun. But the, the reason that matters is they passed a law in 1641 that man stealing is a crime, you can't kidnap somebody. Etc, which again is from the Bible. 1646, there's a slave ship that arrives at the Massachusetts Bay Colony.

Josh

This blew my mind. This story is insane.

Tim Barton

They think they're doing what they do in lots of places. We're just going to like sell and trade slaves. And so they get off and Start announcing, we have slaves. Where's your market? And they're like, oh, not here, you don't. So the local town, let me just highlight this. This.

Josh

Because they're Christians with a Bible in their hand, right? So, like 150, 200 years before everybody else is abolishing slavery, these guys with a Bible in their hand are doing what you're about to describe, correct?

Tim Barton

So they. The townspeople go and they capture the captain and all the crew, and they put them in prison. They. They put them in jail. They charge them with the crime of man stealing. It actually goes before a judge. And they're like, we had no idea this was a thing. Like, everywhere else in the world we're allowed to do this. And they said, okay, we're going to let you go because of ignorance, but if you ever show up here again, you don't get a second chance. Like, we're trying you and execution, but also you forfeit all your cargo. And so they took all of those that have been enslaved. They actually took up a collection and saying, that's a. It's kind of funny because they really set said, we're doing a tax. I sent somebody out to get money from every person. So literally, it's like a fundraiser mandatory. And they collected money, they hired a new captain, a new crew, and they said, we don't know where they're from. You take them back and they'll tell you where they need to go. So they literally paid for their return.

Trinity

Wow.

Tim Barton

And again, like, you. You track the story. And by the way, it's not that

Josh

the Pilgrims and Puritans. Here's why that's a big deal to me. And this may be a loss on you. Like, normal guys like me, they went to a normal public high school, and you pick up stuff. And like, the vibe that I always got was like, all the founders of your country were overtly racist, evil people. And it's like, hey, man, actually, not all your ancestors were evil.

Tim Barton

Right?

Josh

Cause that's the vibe that I was totally. That's why that story blew my mind.

Tim Barton

And this is where. So I spoke at a college campus. And afterwards we had an open mic, Q and A. And this professor got out up, and he's like, tim, how could you suggest that, like, the founding fathers were moral men when we know all of them had slaves? And I was just like. In my head, I was like, all right, we're going to play this game. I was like, let's go. I said, now, just be clear. Are you suggesting they all had Slaves. We know they all did. I'm like, okay, let's. Let's talk about it. What about John Adams? He goes, what about John Adams? Said, I'm pretty sure he never had slaves and fighting in slavery his whole life. He's like, well, I don't know about John Adams, but all the others did. I'm like, I'll play your game. Like, let's go. What about Sam Adams? Well, I don't know. Never had slaves fighting right now. Right.

Josh

I ain't never going to argue with you about American history. That's the last thing I don't get in fights. I know I'm gonna lose.

Tim Barton

Well, I literally go through, like, Roger Sherman. I go through all these examples of guys that never had slaves fighting in slavery their whole life. And.

Josh

And.

Tim Barton

And like, five or six guys in. He's finally like, okay, fine, Tim. I don't actually know who didn't. Who didn't have slaves, but I know the majority did. And I'm already like, you just disqualified yourself. You literally just said you don't even know who did and didn't. But this is to your point. We are taught that all of them are guilty of the evil that the majority of them opposed.

Josh

And here's what was lost on me. And by the way, both of us were. We already quoted the Bible verses. We all agree, like, no one's saying anything different. That man stealing slavery, all this, like, wrong. All of us would agree with that. But the point that was lost on me for so many years was, hey, man, that wasn't a unique evil that they were. It was like. Only. It was like, no, man. Unfortunately, that was everyone in the world, including every African nation in the world. Correct. Everyone was committing these things, which. That doesn't excuse it. No, but it does. The context that it was typically presented to me in of, hey, man, the American founders were uniquely racist and evil men is simply not true.

Tim Barton

No. And we never tell the rest of the story that especially for the northern colonies, every single northern colonies passed laws for the abolition of slavery by 1803. By 1804, they all have laws that are passed. And the reason that matters is because that's 30 years before England and slavery, Every one of our northern colonies already passed laws for abolition. We literally signed a law abandoning the slave trade before England did. So when people look at America and we're like, we're so bad. We led the world in the opposition to all of these things that we agree were evil. But you're using this as a club to say how evil America is when the reality is we should have said, look how evil the world was at that time. And look how God raised up some men in this nation who saw the evil for what it was and said, we got to put a stop to it. And they led the first political movement anywhere in the world against that evil.

Josh

Wow. Doesn't excuse. It does contextualize it. Yeah, there you go. Okay, let's. I don't know how you're going to do this one. We got. I got two more. You're going to rapid fire. Tim Barton. The American settlers committed genocide against the Native Americans and stole their land. America is all stolen land.

Tim Barton

Yeah. So big questions at the beginning. Who stole their land?

Josh

I don't know. I'm just telling you what I heard.

Tim Barton

But this is the question, right? This. This is the question, right? Because the narrative is we stole all the land, okay? So the Pilgrims, when they arrive, they. They land on shores where actually, where. Where Squanto was from, that was where his tribe was. A disease hit. They're all wiped out. Nobody's there. But they get there and they're like, okay, well, we want to live here. They actually agreed and bought the land at a price agreed upon by the Wampanoags, Chief Massasoit. So the Pilgrims buy the land. When they have colonies break off, right? You have Massachusetts Bay Colony, they buy the land. When you have Connecticut, you have Roger Williams in Rhode island, they buy the land. My favorite is when William Penn, the founder of Pennsylvania, very devout Quaker, he goes to Pennsylvania, which, by the way, the King. King gave Pennsylvania to his father, who was the admiral. Penn, who had won it was a naval leader who had won. This admiral won multiple wars for the King. And the King said, as a commission, I'm gonna give you land in my New World. So. And I'm gonna name it in your honor, I'm gonna call it Pennsylvania. So that was from the King, a gift to the family. William Penn was a Quaker. England was Anglican. William Penn kept getting thrown in jail because he kept having Bible studies, which were illegal if you were an Anglican. And so his dad negotiates to get him out of jail. The dad, the son, the King are like, let's do all of us a favor, son. Why don't you go with your different views? You go build your own colony for all your Quaker friends in the New World. King, you're happy. I'm happy my son's not in prison. He's happy. He's got freedom. So William Penn comes to the New World when he Starts building a colony, they encounter one of the first tribes. Now, William Pen again is a Quaker.

Josh

Quaker.

Tim Barton

And Quakers are from the beginning. They are against war and they're against slavery. Like, two things you can kind of know about Quakers. But they're also people that are very driven by biblical truth. And when they are building a colony, they encounter this tribe. And the Quakers in Pennsylvania, they got along with every tribe they ever met because of their Christian testimony, because they were so gracious and giving. They didn't have the issues that so many other tribes or so many other groups of settlers at times have with other tribes. So William Pin. As they're building this colony, the first tribe comes up and says, what are you doing? He's like, we're building a colony. And they're like, but this is, like, part of our land. And he says, I had no idea. Like, King said it was. His are bad. Can we buy it from you? So they agreed to a price. He bought it from the first tribe. Second tribe shows up, says, what are you doing? I'm building here.

Josh

Whoa.

Tim Barton

This is our land. You can't build here. He's like, but they said it was theirs. We bought it. Okay, can we buy it from you? He buys it from the second tribe.

Josh

Wow.

Tim Barton

Third tribe shows up.

Josh

Wow, dude, I've never heard this.

Tim Barton

They're like, what are you doing? I'm building. You can't build here. He bought it from three tribes.

Trinity

Why?

Tim Barton

Because all three tribes had been warring over who got the land. Because this was in an era like conquest. A strong survive. That's the way the world was. That's the way it was for anybody in the world, but absolutely for natives here in America. And the reason I say this is because when you look at the early colonies, it was so clear. George Washington, when they do the Northwest Ordinance, which is how the new regions where populations expanding, they're going to become territories, eventually they become states. In the Northwest ordinance, in Article 3, it says that no land shall be stolen from any natives and no land can be taken from them without their consent.

Trinity

What?

Josh

What?

Tim Barton

It's literally in the laws of America. Now, it's worth pointing out, if you're having to pass a law, it's because somebody was trying to do something and you're like, hey, hey, don't murder. That's wrong. Okay, now. But again, I would point out that this is all of the New England colonies. If you look down at Jamestown, Jamestown had some rough relationship with the natives because they had a very different mindset. They actually end up Kidnapping Pocahontas, like, in the early years, they ransomware, like, it's. It's nuts. They're. They did a lot of things that were not good at all, which is also ironic. When 1619 was like, Jamestown's so bad. I'm like, well, they are, just not for the reasons you're saying. Like, they did so many bad things. But when people say, we saw the land, my question is, who? Like, when did that happen? Because, honestly, what the majority of people think about is actually the 1800s, when you have the expansion of the Calvary, when you have, like, Andrew Jackson laying the foundation for what became known as a Trail of Tears. But even in the midst of the Trail of Tears, there's even more context to some of that story. This is not like a defense of it, but it's part of the story we're not told. So, for example, when the Cherokees leave from Tennessee and they're one of many tribes that are resettled in the Trail of Tears, the Cherokees took something special with them. They took all of their African slaves with them.

Josh

Really? I've never heard of that before in my life.

Tim Barton

What, one out of every eight of their tribe was an African slave, bro.

Josh

Never heard that before.

Tim Barton

Okay. And by the way, like, this is stuff like people can look up. This is documented that the highest percentage African slaveholders in America were native tribes.

Josh

I've, in my entire life leading up

Tim Barton

to the Civil War. Okay, but this is not a knock on any natives. Right. At all. It's the contextualization saying, this is the way it was. So even when people say, stole land, Stole it from who? But then I would go even further because people. Not only is there more to that story when they're like, but it's this tribe. And I would say, okay, well, how did that tribe get the land?

Josh

Yeah, See, this is honest amount. Let's say this and move on. Whenever somebody does. I almost had us play it the Obama library Commission, where they began with

Tim Barton

a stolen land acknowledgement of the stolen land.

Josh

You see that like a lot of more progressive places, the illogic, the foolishness of it is whenever you do a quote unquote, land acknowledgement or a stolen land acknowledgement, really what somebody's doing is they're arbitrarily picking a year in history. It's literally they're just grabbing a year out of history and going, well, this person owned it at that year. And so we're going to say those are the original happenings. If you can pick a different year and There were different inhabitants. So what people need to understand is. And we'll just say this and move on. This is an explanation, it's not an excuse. Then you get all into just war theory and right to exist concepts.

Tim Barton

But I do want to clarify the majority of the original 13 colonies, the land was purchased from the natives at a price agreed upon by the natives.

Josh

See, I didn't know that. Okay, I didn't know. See, there you go. That's really helpful to know. But what people do need to understand is that all land is. You've literally never been on land that's not conquered land. Correct. You go back, it doesn't exist. I'm just gonna read some. The Normans conquered Britain. The Mongols conquered Asia. The Bantu expansion displaced the African people in the United States. So this is what you're talking about. You know, three tribes are going, one piece of land is all ours. Well, here you go. The Sioux displaced the Cayenne. The Comanche conquered the southern plains. The Aztecs built an empire on conquest and human sacrifice. Even in Mexico. Like you. Oh, man, talk about Mexico. And that kind of. The Spanish conquered the Aztecs.

Tim Barton

Aztecs.

Josh

So then. But the Aztecs conquered somebody else. Right.

Tim Barton

Which, by the way, how did the Spaniards conquer the Aztecs? They were joined by nearly 80,000 other natives who. The Aztecs believed in human sacrifice, which very well documented. Right. But they targeted these other tribes, and these other tribes didn't have the power. It's estimated there's anywhere between 1 to 3 million Aztecs at the time. And you have Cortez of 500 dudes.

Josh

Yeah.

Tim Barton

There's no way. Five. Oh, but it wasn't 500. It's between 40 to 80,000 other native warriors that joined them in the conquest because they were tired of getting killed by the Aztecs.

Josh

See, this is like that, that right there. I'm a. I'm a history guy. Never heard that for my whole life.

Tim Barton

Yeah, but again, it's. It's like this era of conquest, even. Even when the Comanches were defeated in Texas.

Josh

Like, this is just off script. Why do these. What is your theory on why all these stories get selectively edited, very twisted and then weaponized?

Tim Barton

So I think it's obviously, as you mentioned, it's whoever controls the narrative. Right. Is able to direct their direction. And I think that there's a lot of people, sometimes there's good heartedness where you're like, let me just simplify this, right? So Cortez beats the Aztecs and then you're simplifying it because to tell the whole story right, like we've had to simplify everything and we, we've had to skip things along the way. So I think sometimes it's good hearted simplification, but when you simplify it, you can leave out details that in the future actually make a really big difference for the conversation we're having. But I think if you would have looked in earlier generations, sometimes things that get left out are things that other generations would almost like take for granted. We're like, well, well, of course everybody knows. Like Cortez was joined by other groups along the way. Of, of course people know the founding fathers believed in Christianity. Like there's things that certain writers would take for granted based on who they're writing to. And so sometimes things, again, good hearted gets left out. But then there are people that can really distort it for nefarious purposes. And the reason they can is once you've stopped, you, you, you can't promote a lie well while truth exists. Now, I say that with a caveat because we're in the days of social media, you can literally watch a video and people are like, you didn't see what you saw? It's like, no, really, I. And so they're, they're literally gaslighting you in the midst of it. But I think, think before the gaslighting became as prominent, there were people that strategically said, let's not talk about it for a while. And then once you've gone silent for 10 and 15 and 20 and 30 years, you have a generation that's never heard anything and you're like, let me tell you what happened. And honestly, if we were to talk to like our grandmas and grandpas back in the day about some of these things and been like, oh, well, yeah, we know all that. And we're like, we've never heard this before. It's because we went quiet on telling the story. And sometimes it's strategic. When you go quiet, then when you come back with a new narrative, nobody knows you're lying because nobody knows what the truth actually was.

Josh

Dude. So you're talking about nefarious purposes. Let me say this and move on to our last thing that I want to talk about here. You know what you got right now, and you can agree or disagree, I'd love to know what you think. But right now, what I see in our culture is primarily what you have is Christian theology versus critical theory. There's really two. They're opposing worldviews, they're locked in a cultural Cage match. They cannot coexist, exist, and one's going to win. It is this Christian theology versus critical theory. And the difference between them is Christian theology, it divides the world along a sin righteousness lens. What's right and wrong? Okay, Christian critical theory, it doesn't divide the world along a sin righteousness lens. It divides the world along an oppressed oppressor lens. Well then what you've had happen in our culture is obviously critical theory is what it does is it gets into, it's called intersectionality. But what it does is, man, if you boil it down to its lowest common denominator, it goes, hey man, we're going to view the entire world through an oppressed oppressor lens. And who are the oppressors? The oppressors are it's predominantly white Christian heterosexual men. If you're a white Christian heterosexual dude, you're basically Darth Vader. Well, then essentially what happens is if you start viewing the world through an oppressed oppressor lens, and those are the bad guys and everybody else is the oppress, the oppressors are the bad guys and everybody else is the good guys, well then what you're naturally going to do is what does Romans chapter one say? We already said it is they suppress the truth in their own righteousness. So then what they do is they go back into history. Let's selectively edit and reinterpret all history through the lens of that oppressed oppressor lens that we're beginning with as an epistemological starting point. And so that if you're asking the question, man, why does every story seem to get selectively edited and twisted with the same narrative that the Christian dudes were the bad evil guys and that everybody else were the good oppressed guys, well, that's why it's rewrite the past in order to control the future. When an ideology becomes an idol, truth suppression has to happen.

Tim Barton

Yeah, Josh, I think you nailed it. I think the fundamental question is who gets to determine what right and wrong is and who gets to determine redemption? Because critical theory, there is no redemption.

Josh

There is no redemption, right?

Tim Barton

And this is like the most significant core part of the gospel is that redemption comes through Jesus Christ, that we can be in sin but not stuck in sin because we can be redeemed from sin. And when you have an ideology that says there is no redemption for you, you can know that's of the devil because there's no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, it's the devil who says, no, there's no hope for you.

Josh

Come on, Tim. Come on, preach.

Tim Barton

All right.

Josh

You only get one. You have to do this. Like, you get.

Tim Barton

Oh, my God.

Josh

You can tell me one story.

Tim Barton

Okay.

Josh

Tell me one story from this American founding era that would contradict this myth. Christians, especially pastors, should stay out of politics and culture wars. You want to go black robe? Where do you want to go? Black row. Where do you want to go?

Tim Barton

Oh, my gosh, yes. So, I mean, anybody I would pick is going to be a pastor and they're going to be black regiment.

Josh

So, by the way, our listeners will not know what the black robe regiment is.

Tim Barton

I'm so glad. So let me take the one that tells the best story of the black robe regiment. So there was a guy, his name is John Peter Gabriel Muhlenberg. He was a pastor. His father was the founder of the Lutheran Church in America. And so the father has two sons. John Peter Gabriel Muhlenberg. It's a strong biblical name. And Frederick Augustus Muhlenberg. So they both become pastors. John Peter pastors in Virginia. And in January of 1776, not only is he a pastor, he's also a member of the state legislature. And which again, so already, like, we've thrown a little bit of a kerfuffle and this idea that Christians and politics shouldn't be involved or pastors and politics shouldn't be involved. He is. January 1776, is the British come into Williamsburg, which is where their capital was. The British do what in Williamsburg? What they did in Lexington and Concord. They went and tried to take all the guns and gunpowder, disarm the people, which is what tyrants always want to do as they're taking over. And Patrick Henry is the acting governor of the time. He finds out what had just happened, that these 200 British soldiers took everybody's guns and guns powder away. He says, all right, rally the farmers. We're stopping this. So 5,000 farmers show up, up.

Josh

That's amazing. Now shout out, farmers.

Tim Barton

2,000 British soldiers have all the guns, but it's single shot muskets. That takes you 30 seconds to reload. I don't care. You got all the guns. You're about to be overwhelmed. And so word goes ahead and they're like, hey, it's your last chance. Like, give us stuff back. About to go bad. As this is unfolding, Patrick Henry tells the state legislative assembly that this is such clearly an act of war. This is not just like Massachusetts, Boston, like, they're not just having the problems. This is now in Virginia. George Washington has Already sent out word that we need to start raising local militias. Patrick Henry says, all right, everybody go home to your. Your local district and raise a militia. Well, this pastor, John Peter Gabriel Muhlenberg, he gets on a horse from Williamsburg, rides over 200 miles back in time for Sunday service.

Josh

What a stud.

Tim Barton

And gets to its churches in Woodstock, Virginia. His church is still there to this day. Now, today, I think there's some rainbow flags on it, which he would not have supported, but the actual church, you can actually go see the church.

Josh

Church.

Tim Barton

So he gets back in time for Sunday service. Back then, everybody wore. All pastors wore black clerical robes. It was just the dress uniform of the day. So he gets up and his elevated pulpit, because there's no sound system back then. So you have this pulpit really high up, kind of front center of the congregation. And he opened his Bible, puts on his pulpit to Ecclesiastes, chapter 3. A time, a season, a purpose for everything under heaven. The beginning of verse one, A time to be born, a time to die. Gets down to verse eight. There's a time for war and a time for peace. He closed his Bible, looks at the congregation, and starts telling what happens in Williamsburg. He's the first news to get there. Nobody knows what happened. He wrote 200 miles. So he says, this is what just happened. We are going to war. Which, by the way, General George Washington, commander of the Continental army, he's asked us to raise the militia. So we're going to raise the militia. We're going to war. Y' all join me in prayer. And you can imagine, right? Like, the whole congregation's like, what's happening right now? So he leads the a prayer. And then instead of doing what pastors would do back then is they would go off into the Vesta Room. They would take off their black clerical robe. Is. He stood in the elevated pulpit and began to disrobe. And everybody's like, what's pastor doing, right, bro? It's not that kind of party. What are you doing? So he disrobes.

Josh

The rainbow flags don't come for 300 more years.

Tim Barton

He shows he's wearing the uniform of a Continental army officer. Wow. And he just stands there. Everybody's taking it in like he. He's one of them. He dismounts the pulpit and begins walking down the narrow aisle. And he says, brethren, we came here to enjoy our liberties, but if we don't get involved and fight to defend them right now, we will lose everything we came here to enjoy. He says, I'm going to Fight to defend freedom. I want you to come with me. They had a little drummer boy at the back of the church. They had a sign up sheet. They had 300 men get signed up at the back of the church. But Josh, here's the cool part. There weren't even 300 men there that day. Day what? There were kids and wives signing up their husbands and dads who weren't there.

Josh

Well, you got Volun told brother, how'd

Tim Barton

you like to show up and be like, oh yeah, dad, by the way, I knew you want to be part of this.

Josh

We're going to do that for kids ministry volunteers.

Tim Barton

You're going to have the kids sign up. She like put your parents name down. But what's cool about this is he gets involved that they, they become the 8th Virginia Brigade. He ends up staying in the entire revolution, becomes a major general. He's there all the way at the end the Battle of Yorktown. His men go through Valley Forge, but his brother was also a pastor up in New York City. And his brother Frederick finds out what John did and he's like, bro, what are you doing? So he writes, he writes John a letter and he says, you're totally wrong. For like, as a pastor, your job is pulpit in Jesus. That's your job. You shouldn't be getting involved in these like civil social affairs. So John Peter writes him a letter back and he says, look, I'm a clergyman, it's true, and this is his quote. But I'm a member of society as well as the poorest layman. My liberty is dear to me as any man. Shall I then sit still? Heaven forbid it. It's my duty I do or my, my duty to do so. Duty I owe to God and my country. And, and Frederick writes him back and it's like, it's only because you have hot heads in Virginia, you even have these problems. If y' all were more rational, you wouldn't have problems with the British. Well, the reality is Frederick just hadn't experienced the British marching into town yet. And that summer they march in New York. There were 19 churches in New York City. They, they kind of confiscate all the ground as the, the year goes on. They begin to use his church as a hospital, kind of desecrating his church along the way. And the following summer of July, 1777, the British have begun to become so frustrated with pastors because they're like, it's pastor stirring up people. If these pastors would just shut up and not talk about like these cultural issues we wouldn't have problems. So they in. In their frustration, decide they're going to destroy the churches in New York city. They burned 10 churches of the ground. They destroy the other nine. He watched as they set fire to his church. And in that moment, he has this epiphany. He's like, I think I have to get involved. He ends up moving his family to Pennsylvania to find safety in Pennsylvania. He runs for, for state office the whole time. His brother's still in the military, a major general. The revolution comes to an end. And when we have the Constitution, we then elect the first Congress. And Frederick and John Peter are both chosen as the congressmen in the first Congress. So you have pastors in the first Congress? Well, as they get there, they're, they're trying to elect their leadership and they're like, we need somebody. Speaker of the House. Who's done this before. Well, Frederick, when he went to Pennsylvania, he ran for office and he became the speaker of the House of Pennsylvania. And so they're like, oh, you've done it before. Okay, you be our speaker. The very first speaker of the House was Pastor Frederick Augustus Muhlenberg.

Josh

Holy cow.

Tim Barton

To go further, there's only two signatures on the Bill of Rights. John Adams, who is Vice president, and speaker of the House, Frederick Augustus Muhlenberg, who in the first Congress? The guys that wrote the Bill of Rights. It was those two brothers as pastors, and there were five other pastors that joined them in the first Congress. So when people say pastors shouldn't get involved, this was a longer story, but I could give literally dozens of stories. Had it not been for pastors involvement, we wouldn't even had an America to begin with. We wouldn't have had a declaration. We wouldn't have been successful in the military. We wouldn't have had a constitution. We wouldn't have had a Bill of Rights. It's always been pastors in the church. And you do this so brilliantly. And people are like, yeah, but you know, pastors shouldn't be involved in politics. What political issue do you think Christians shouldn't be a part of? And I'll wait. Right. And then more specifically, if you are a pastor or Christian, so what political issue do you think the word of God doesn't give guidance to?

Josh

Yeah, yeah, that's right.

Tim Barton

Because if the word of God gives guidance to it, then as a pastor, if I'm teaching biblical issues, if there's political overlap, it's usually because politics is becoming spiritual.

Josh

Yeah, that's right.

Tim Barton

Right. That's Right, but, but that doesn't mean I should stop teaching what the word of God says. And, and, and we've talked about this personally before the, the word of God. There is arguably more guidance in the Bible for government officials than there is for pastors. And you have five life. Right. Pastoral epistles you can point to. Right. But you go Old Testament and you talk about whether you want to go through 1st and 2nd Samuel, 1st 2nd Kings and Chronicles, and you have Judges and you have Deuteronomy and Leviticus and like when you. And we're not even including the prophets that were speaking to kings and leaders. But the reason I say this is there's a lot of pastors. I think that some of them are very good hearted. But there's a disconnect that had pastors in the founding had that same disconnect. We would still be happy ignorant British colonists. And the reason we mentioned Black Robe Regiment, there was a British historian at the end of the revolution who was writing a history and he said that had it not been for that black robed regiment, we would still be over. And he had to leave America because of his strong loyalist opinions. He said we'd still be over there enjoying our time in the colonies. He's the one that gave the moniker the Black Robe Regiment because it was these pastors who wore black clerical robes that got involved. And they didn't get involved because they wanted to be political. They got involved because they saw the culture they lived in spiritually decaying. And they said, we want to spiritually save and revive what is being taken down. And I would say today for pastors that have a hard time getting involved, if you're not seeing the spiritual decay of society and if you're not motivated to get involved, I don't think you're paying attention.

Josh

Yeah, man, it's the like, this is just basic. We got Bible verses for this. You are the salt of the earth. Earth. And whenever, you know, it's kind of that thing I'll do and then we're gonna finish this thing up. But it's kind of the thing that I'll say is, man, I'm always gonna keep the main thing. The main thing. If anybody listens to my preaching, it's, I mean, I just kind of preach verse by verse through books of the Bible. One, yeah.

Tim Barton

Two. I was just thinking of salvation.

Josh

Yeah, yeah, that's fine. 1. God loves you.

Trinity

2.

Josh

You came here for a reason. Today I just preached verse by verse through the books of the Bible. And even if you listen to live free, man. It's like 90%, 80% of the podcast is just, just going deep dives in the Bible. But man, what I'm not going to do is I'm not going to have an area of the world that's really important, especially one where we're deciding this societal inheritance that we hand our children, our grandchildren and the future of the church in America. And then I'm going to go, you know what? I'm going to apply the word of God to everything except that I'm not going to do that.

Tim Barton

So good.

Josh

And so man, it's that thing of man. If, if godly people don't apply the word of God to those things, if godly people won't, then the only people left to guide those things are godless people people. So if godly people won't, godless people will and godless people have, which is why we're very thankful for people like you. Tim Barton. Thank you for your time, man. Happy birthday, America.

Tim Barton

Happy birthday, America.