Podcast Summary: Making Sense with Sam Harris

Episode #452 — Is Wokeness Finally Dead?
Date: January 7, 2026
Host: Sam Harris
Guest: John McWhorter

Overview

In this episode, Sam Harris welcomes linguist, author, and NYT columnist John McWhorter for a deep dive on the state of "wokeness" in America. Four years after their last conversation about McWhorter’s book Woke Racism, they revisit the trajectory of the culture war, especially in academia and the arts. They discuss whether the influence of “woke” ideology is waning, the persistence of identity politics, and the challenges of countering entrenched narratives about race, power, and social justice. The conversation includes candid reflections on activism, institutional change, and personal costs of intellectual honesty.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

Where Does Wokeness Stand in 2026?

(01:01–03:59)

• McWhorter sees the "peak" of nationwide wokeness as having passed, describing its earlier era as “blissfully quaint.”
• Despite some rollback, he argues academia and the arts may be “possibly ruined for the duration”—the ideology, infused through faculty and the structure of academic hiring, is deeply entrenched.
• Quote:

  "It's hard for me to see how that ideology won't continue to affect hirings... I don't see how the toothpaste gets back into the tube." —John McWhorter [02:32]

• Sam pushes back: Isn’t “DEI” (diversity, equity, inclusion) being stripped from institutions?
• McWhorter: Officially, some policies are removed, but the ideology survives underground—“old wine in new bottles.”
• Quote:

  "It'll just be the same stuff, old wine in new bottles. Maybe I'm pessimistic because it's a slate gray January day in Manhattan, but that's the way I've been feeling lately." —John McWhorter [03:46]

The Entrenchment of Ideology in Academia

(04:03–08:03)

• McWhorter discusses his insulated role at Columbia but notes the continued influence of “woke” professors on curricula and hiring, particularly beyond undergraduates.
• Example from music academia: The popularity of claims (esp. Philip Ewell's) that “music theory is racist" and the willingness of departments to reshape curricula around such views.
• Quote:

  "This idea that music theory is inherently racist...It’s, frankly, absurd." —John McWhorter [07:13]

• Broad concern: The insistence on interpreting Western art largely through the lens of identity and race.

Has There Really Been a Cultural Shift?

(08:03–10:57)

• Sam expresses hope that the “high watermark” of wokeness passed when leftist identity politics became a political liability (citing Kamala Harris’s failed presidential bid on far-left platforms).
• McWhorter is skeptical: The attitude merely shifts topics (e.g., from race to Israel–Palestine or trans issues).
• Quote:

  "I feel like that same woke ideology is just now being applied to different issues, and it will keep being applied to certain issues. It's just this flame that never quite goes out." —John McWhorter [10:22]

What Is to Be Done?

(10:57–14:18)

• Sam asks if those opposed to extremes of wokeness ("outdoor cats") could do more—especially those like McWhorter with institutional standing.
• McWhorter: The real task is sustained repetition—explaining again and again that “battling power differentials” has become the unexamined core of academic and artistic mission.
• He feels a slight guilt for wanting variety in his work rather than making criticism of wokeness his life’s work.
• Quote:

  "I wrote Woke Racism in a fury...but I'm not the kind of person who could just keep doing woke racism again and again for 20 years." —John McWhorter [13:16]

The Opportunity Cost of Activism

(13:53–14:18)

• Sam: Discussing race incessantly is often a “massive opportunity cost.”
• McWhorter agrees—he would prefer to focus on other things, but feels obligated.

What Did America Get Wrong in 2020?

(15:29–18:27)

• Sam asks how the country, particularly the left-leaning intelligentsia, failed in the aftermath of the George Floyd killing.
• McWhorter: The central error was embracing as unchallengeable faith the belief that Black men face daily mortal danger from racist police.
• Quote:

  "That's a myth, and the numbers don't support it. It really doesn't work in 2026. That certainly probably was true in 1950, but it's been a while." —John McWhorter [16:23]

• The media and political conversation avoided crucial statistical reality, leading to performative, sometimes “kabuki” activism.
• The pair note widespread misconceptions about police violence owed largely to viral “algorithmic” media rather than data.

Personal Experiences, Perspectives, and Intellectual Friendship

(18:27–20:53)

• Sam references McWhorter’s long-running public conversations with Glenn Loury and how their perspectives have evolved.
• McWhorter notes that Glenn Loury is angrier at certain “woke” excesses, and has recently been more critical of Israel—creating the rare strain in their friendship.
• Example: Divergent takes on Ta-Nehisi Coates’s work.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the persistence of "woke" attitudes in elite circles:

  "It's hard for me to see how that ideology won't continue to affect hirings. Already there are people of that ideology with gray hair, and I can't imagine what the pathway would be that would change it...I don't see how the toothpaste gets back into the tube." —John McWhorter [02:32]

• On DEI reform:

  "Officially, but from what I see, it's just gonna go underground...it'll just be the same stuff, old wine in new bottles." —John McWhorter [03:15]

• On academic fads:

  "This idea that music theory is inherently racist...it's, frankly, absurd." —John McWhorter [07:13]

• On the shape-shifting quality of performative activism:

  "That same woke ideology is just now being applied to different issues... it's just this flame that never quite goes out." —John McWhorter [10:22]

• On the misplaced post-George Floyd national conversation:

  "That's a myth, and the numbers don't support it... We couldn't get past that in 2020 and 2021. And it created an awful lot of what I couldn't help seeing as kabuki." —John McWhorter [16:23]

• On effective resistance:

  "You can't say something once and expect there to be any kind of effect. You have to just keep at it for years and years and years." —John McWhorter [12:31]

Timestamps for Major Segments

• 00:41–03:59: Where are we now? The legacy and persistence of wokeness
• 04:03–08:03: Insider perspective from academia; examples from the humanities and musicology
• 08:03–10:57: Has society reached a turning point or just shifted focus?
• 10:57–14:18: What is the responsibility of public intellectuals on this issue?
• 15:29–18:27: The fatal narrative error around policing and race after George Floyd
• 18:27–20:53: Friendship, differences, and the evolution of public discourse

Tone and Style

The conversation is candid, introspective, and at times wry or resigned, with both speakers wrestling openly with the frustration of repeating themselves in public debate and the costs of challenging dominant dogmas. Both display a weary realism about cultural change, leavened with philosophical gravity and moments of humor.

For those who haven’t listened, this episode is a nuanced, inside look at the enduring struggles over identity, truth, and institutional inertia—and a case study in the limits and necessity of public reasoning.