A

So good, so good, so good.

B

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A

welcome to the New Books Network.

C

Welcome to today's episode on the New Books Network, a platform dedicated to thoughtful conversations about important new books across academic fields and public debates. I'm Desi Vasileva with Vernon Press, and today we're joined by Kurt Warner, author of False Idols, How Diversion is Destroying Democracy, published by Vernon Press in the series Critical Perspectives on Social Science. Before we begin, a brief introduction to Vernon Press, an independent publisher of scholarly books in the humanities and social sciences. This interview is part of our ongoing collaboration with New Books Network, where we bring authors and readers together through engaging conversations about new academic work. False Idols explores how contemporary forms of diversion are from celebrity, culture and economic pressure to politics, social media, sports, video games and entertainment can distract citizens from civic duty, critical thinking and democratic responsibility. Kurt Warner, welcome to the New Books Network.

A

Thank you, Desi. It's really an honor to be here. Thank you for having me.

C

Kurt, to start us off, could you say a few words about yourself? Where were you born, where did you study? And how did you become interested in the relationship between the distraction democracy and civic life?

A

Sure. So I was born in a town called Mountaintop in Pennsylvania, and there's an adjacent town to that called Wilkes Barre, where I studied at King's College for my undergraduate degree, where I studied English literature. 90 miles north of that in New York, is a town called Binghamton, and that's where I went to study social work at Binghamton University. And as far I think I became interested in the relationship between distraction, democracy and civic life as probably as early as I was introduced to politics, it appeared to be more theater to me than actual substance. And the actual issues, at least in America, I found to be seldom discussed in a meaningful way. And in its stead, there's a sort of eternal play being performed that really doesn't have a lot to do with the things that will really help people.

C

Your background brings together literature, social work, psychotherapy, and social criticism. How did those different paths lead you to this book?

A

I'll answer that in the order that you name them. So first, I became very zealous about English literature. I remember I began reading pretty much everything I could get my hands on in late high school. And literature was formative for me. I found that literature had the capacity to develop profound empathy and compassion in me. It really spoke to my better angels, so to speak. And that empathy and compassion, I found, cultivated deeper thought and especially within the realm of literary criticism. I was very drawn to literary criticism and the analyzation of literature and writing because writing did a tremendous amount in cultivating thought for me. This developed into the critical thinking skills that were necessary to bring that empathy into a forum where I could utilize it with actual human beings instead of characters in a book. That's the intersection where literature comes into social work. Social work entered the picture in that way. Social criticism grew out of social work in the same way that literary criticism grew out of literature. I saw them as very parallel. It was the analyzation of, you know, how systems and interventions affect people, real people instead of characters. I became enthralled and passionate about finding solutions to social problems and especially in analyzing the real life characters who contribute to the social problems. It was just a different type of narrative, a real life one instead of a fictional one. I worked in housing and with the homeless for about 14 years, on a macro level and on a micro level, trying to solve or be a part of what would solve the ills that continue to plague our ongoing. Our housing infrastructure. Then I decided to focus my time and effort on the individual. This is where psychotherapy entered the picture. I found, and continue to find it incredibly rewarding and fascinating. This path led me to trying to find and address major social problems with whatever strengths I had. I had experience in the macro and the micro sphere, and I used whatever I had to. I continue to use whatever I have to affect any meaningful change collectively. All the paths that you described led me to the place I am that I'm in today, wherein I am poised to. I like to think I'm poised to address any social problem with both my individual labor as well as with my pen.

C

You know, this reminds me because of course, how life is. I actually used to hate literature when I was little in, in high school and before that I preferred the, the exact sciences, the subjects. And I. I remember I used to think, why. Why do we have to analyze every word of every book that we have to read? Like, I don't think the author meant to say that the way. The way they did. And it's funny because when we grow up, we, we come to understand that it's actually very important exactly for this because it helps us create and Nurture this critical thinking without it, where we won't be able to analyze between the lines of and everything would be too literal. And the word unfortunately is not literal.

A

Absolutely. And that notion that you said, why? Why do I have to study this? I think is pervasive to this day and certainly when I was growing up with literature as well. But if one peers behind the door, there are such fruits that it brings. And I don't know what I would have done without it.

C

Absolutely. Let's turn now to false idols. Your book. What inspired you to write this book and what is the central argument you wanted to make?

A

I was inspired to write this book after watching decades of the play that politics has become, at least in the US. I can't really remember a time when I didn't feel disenchanted not only with the political system, but with the behavior of politicians themselves. I am especially disenchanted with the systems and the way the politicians manipulate them. And as I noted, I'm a very zealous reader and it was Juvenile and his satires that gave me the inspiration to pick up the torch that he carried almost 2,000 years ago and sort of try to continue his sentiment into the modern day. The central argument I want to make is that this notion of bread and circuses is just as alive and destructive today as it was in ancient Rome. This book attempts to show modern day bread and circuses in Juvenile's time. Bread and circuses, the concept of bread and circuses looked very different than they look today. I wanted to update it to portray modern day bread and circuses and all the destruction that follows behind them. In particular, I wanted to show how these distractions are the modern day opiate of the masses in the Marxist sense of the phrase. The central argument I am trying to make is that if we can recognize these bread and circuses that are insidiously involved in our lives, then we can stop allowing them to dominate our existences. And if we can stop allowing them to dominate our existences, then we can empower ourselves and and make our own choices for what we want in our lives, rather than allowing the psychological gains of those in power to rule so much of our thinking.

C

Interesting. And you mention it now, and you begin with ancient Rome and the famous phrase bread and circuses in your book. Why was that the right starting point for a book about democracy today?

A

You know, that's a great question, and the answer is that I'm not sure I can think of a better phrase that could typify or exemplify modern democracy. Democracy literally means people rule, and it is a beautiful concept that dates back all the way to ancient Greece. However, the allure of greed and power often results in the distortion of systems, no matter how pure or beautiful they are in their design. The destructiveness of greed and power was on exhibit as early in ancient Rome when Juvenal was writing, and almost definitely much earlier than that. As Juvenile suggests, the Roman government used bread in that they gave free wheat out to the masses in ancient Rome during times of famine. They didn't do this out of any kind of beneficence or love of the people. They did this so that the people would not get angry because they were starving and wouldn't revolt and potentially kill the Roman senators. In the same way, the Roman government provided what Juvenal called circuses in the form of gladiator games for the same reason. This was in the Coliseum. The more the Roman government got people interested in the games in the Coliseum, the less likely they were to rebel against the empire. They might even see the empire favorably because they were putting on the games. The distractions were a way to placate them. That's what was behind the scenes. They were just another mode of. They were a mode of pacification. And that's what is. That's essentially what I'm arguing. The very same point that is occurring to democracy today, to our democracy. The ruling classes have found ways to pacify or drug the people. And it's no longer simply with bread and circuses. It's much more complex than that. Now it's with celebrity, it's with capitalism, sports, politics, arts, music and literature, video games, the Internet, social media. And there's so many more that. That are used.

C

Absolutely. I can think of some. And I know reality TV shows. And all this is. Is basically what you're describing. Absolutely.

A

Yes. Yeah, absolutely.

C

In the introduction, you follow an ordinary man, Chris, through a day filled with advertising, media, branding, and social pressure. Why? Why did you choose to open the book through this everyday scene?

A

Well, Chris was meant to be an every person. I trace his existence on an average day. In the introduction, I show how from the moment he opens his eyes in the morning, he is inundated with people telling him what to do in order for his life to be optimal. I do this through his phone, a television. I mean, there's so many messages he's getting from the second he opens his eyes to how he has to live. I show the vast array of corporate symbols that he's bombarded with before he even brushes his teeth and sits down with his son to eat breakfast. Breakfast. I show how both his son and his wife are victims to the same barrage of messages and that they work in changing their thoughts and behavior. It's really a constant and incessant phenomenon that is occurring everywhere at all times, every day in modern society. There are so many messages that we're getting from advertisements, often from people we admire or who occupy some sort of position of esteem. We are getting so many messages that terrify us, that make us feel pleasure, that make us appeal to our vanity. Messages of every type coercing us to act in a certain way. They'll use a different way of coming at it in order to evoke a response. All the different messages that advertisers and modern society uses. I wanted to show the endless barrage and how overbearing it is at the end of it. At the end of that chapter, I cite a study that states that we receive between 4,000 and 10,000 advertisements every day. I mean, it's astonishing how many they siege us. We are bombarded with entities who, all of whom have a motive telling us, you know, what we need to do at every second in order to be happy or to be financially okay or whatever. This is a part of the modern. It's a significant part of the modern day bread and circus. It's the inception of the creation of false idols. And I wanted Chris to bring that concept into the book.

C

You know, as a person that actually works in marketing and design. I'm really sorry for my part in inboard barding with ads every day. But it's, it's part of our world as you described it Very, very well.

A

It is most certainly.

C

Yeah, absolutely. Unfortunately, it's just part of what we live now. So your book discusses many kinds of diversion. Celebrity culture, money, sports, politics, art, music, literature, the Internet, social media and video games. What connects all these different forms of distraction?

A

You know, I'll answer this with a literary illusion first. Homer, as many know as the ancient Greek writer, wrote the Odyssey. In the Odyssey, there's a scene when Odysseus has to pass by the Sirens, which are half bird and half woman creatures who can sing songs that lure passing sailors to the deaths. They're irresistible. The songs and the sailors come in and you can't resist them. I believe that the version today is very much like a modern day version of the Sirens in Greek myth. It's. And that they can lure any of us to our metaphorical death if we do not see through their deception. This is one aspect that connects different forms of distraction. They are all, if not critically analyzed, distractions that can pull us away from what we truly want in life. I argue that each of those distractions can appeal to a different demographic and lure said demographic in the same way that the sirens lure different types of sailors in. If we can become privy to what they are doing, just like Odysseus does, then we can avoid the destruction that they can have on us. All of the distractions grow out of the same basic route. That's the thing that's universal and that's the thing that connects them. But every distraction is designed to lure a different population in.

C

Yeah, absolutely. And very interesting.

D

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C

One of the striking aspects of the book is that politics itself can become part of the spectacle. It's part of it. It feeds on this destruction. How does political life become another form of bread and circuses?

A

It was in 1599. Shakespeare wrote all the World's a Stage in his play, as you like it. That play was written in 1599 and not published until, I think, 1620 or some thereabout about 427 years later. What he said then continues to be prophetic in a way. All the world continues to be a stage. And in politics, I don't think there could be a more apt description than this. In my view, politics is acting. In fact, as I noted, as long as I've known politics, it has been full of distraction and deception. It's political theater. And therefore political life is a form of bread and circuses in and of itself. It's a play. And that play, as I note in the political chapter in the book, is full of distraction. Rather than focus on things that are dire and most important to people, politicians distract. In the book, I talk about how Bill Clinton bombed Iraq seven months after the Monica Lewinsky affair. And without a doubt, part of his motive there was to distract from the constant media attention from the affair, because the media talked nothing but that at that point. And once he bombed the wreck, there was a diversion. This is the versionary foreign policy went off into talking about that more, and the people's heads turned a little bit. I talk about how 2016, just about everything Donald Trump did and continues to do is a distraction from something else. Political life then has become more entertainment. And drama and has become less involved with substantively challenging and changing and bettering human beings, which is what I would argue is the point of politics and certainly policy. Think about the octagon that Trump just had on the South Lawn of the White House. This was to celebrate his 80th birthday and the 250th year of the United States of America. But behind the curtain, I mean, it is the literal embodiment of the concept of circuses. He's putting games Coliseum. It was literally a fight among gladiators on the South Lawn of the House that is meant to represent the people of the United States. It was a very dominant story in American news. And it distracted us from the current state of the country, which was something that he would want to distract from what was going on domestically. So whether it's diversionary foreign policy, like with Clinton, or constant distraction along with diversionary foreign policy, as it is with Trump, distraction is the norm in politics. However, I would argue that the bread and circuses that are endemic to American politics, and I suspect every, probably every nation in the world, do not stop at distraction. It really gets so much work, so much worse. Antonio Gramsci was an Italian philosopher, journalist and politician. He came up with a brilliant concept that has influenced me very deeply in the way I understand politics and I talk about it in the chapter. He called it cultural hegemony. Cultural hegemony is the idea that the ruling classes can benefit society's beliefs, perceptions and values. So I'm sorry, the ruling classes can manipulate a society's beliefs, perceptions and values so that their worldview becomes the norm. By virtue of their power, they can make this the culture. This is how political life becomes another form of bread and circuses. The ruling classes have the power to set the culture. The rest of us feel that we have to keep up with it if we are to feel any type of self worth or inclusion. We see versions of this in high school when, you know, in school, when we're growing up, you know, with the different crowds, the popular. And it's the same concept this cultural hegemony has in it. It's just in different forms. Again, macro and micro. One of the best examples of this that I talk about in the book is in the economic section. The concept that wealth is worth it pervaded the United States for centuries. And I don't think many people would give me any argument that it has pervaded many other countries as well. This belief system is only getting more prominent, not only in the United States, but I would Argue around the world. It is purely a form of cultural hegemony because at the end of the day, wealth is not worth. It is something that the masses have bought into after being fed it by the ruling classes. And I think there are many instances of this occurring at any given time in any society.

C

Absolutely, absolutely. And as a person that lives in Europe currently, I might add that we have this of course, here too. And I can think of so many examples of what you described. The diversions that they create nowadays. It's amazing how we forget from one day to another, even though it was something that was all over the media, like for example, the Epstein files and many other things that were happening and how this completely disappears in the morning because there is another conflict like for example, the one happening in the Middle east and many things, similar things, or for example, here a few years back when the Russia and Ukraine war started, it completely.

A

It.

C

It changed the narrative from one day to another from the problems that we supposedly had before that. So it's. It's quite interesting. And it's happening all over the place. Absolutely.

A

When you mentioned the Epstein files, when that. That was something just like Clinton when it was raging, there were all kinds of diversions that he did. He started bringing his police into different cities, the federal, you know, secret police sort of into different cities. And the. And the news started trying to distract it with the Epstein files. It's insidious and it really is occurring

C

constantly that the version and when the Epstein files were everywhere and there was no way to speak or to read anything different, suddenly other things happened that took our minds from it.

A

Exactly.

C

But you not only talk about external distractions in your book, you also write about how distraction affects thought, emotion and judgment. How does your work as a psychotherapist inform your understanding of these issues?

A

Well, I have. As I noted, I've worked in macro social work, which examines systemic and structural change. And I've also worked in microsocial social work, which is direct and hands on change. Macro social workers are generally engaged with the functioning of large systems like housing or government. In general, microsocial work is done with individuals. I have seen how distraction affects thought, emotion and judgment on both levels. In both the macro and the micro realms of social work. I often have to utilize similar skill sets when I'm trying to affect change on the macro level and on the micro level, many of the same techniques are applicable. Because at the end of the day, whether it is sociology on the group level or psychology on the individual level, many of the same Concepts and interventions work. Therefore, my work as a therapist, as a psychotherapist, affects my understanding of the concept of bread and circuses and systemic change a great deal every day. It's very impactful on it. And the psychological principles that can lead the individual astray from their personal values are oftentimes the same. The very same ones that can lead the group astray from their group identity or values. I mean, there are differences, but for the most part, there are striking parallels. If both the group and the individual can use critical thinking to analyze who they are and what they actually want in life instead of what they're being told they want, I feel and have seen that they can both make immense changes.

C

Yeah. And this is where critical thinking is actually critical. And unfortunately, I feel that every day our populations has it less and less. Let's say it's taught in at school. Not as much as before.

A

I feel absolutely. No, without a doubt, less and less. Like you said.

C

Yeah. In the end, it's something that is not helping the important people. Let's put it like this.

A

No, absolutely. Note toward that end is whether micro or macro, I have found in my research and in my experience that the distractions are tailored so specifically, and now I'm speaking from a therapeutic standpoint as a therapist, they can be tailored to affect the neuroses and specific populations. And that's something that I hear about all the time. If the mass culture decides wealth is the most important, or beauty is the most important, or something else, or dominant strength, whatever is the most important, it usually tends to water down an effect from an individual level. It usually creates a lot of neuroses that tends to manifest itself very negatively in the individual's life. And I think that's tragic. And I think that there are ways to transcend it. And that's what I'm certainly trying to present.

C

Yeah. And you connect critical thinking with democracy. In your final chapters, you turn toward critical thinking and the possible death of democracy. What kind of critical thinking do you believe is necessary if citizens are to resist these false idols?

A

Well, studying literature, I learned very quickly to see many things in any work of art. One of those things that I learned to recognize is that there's a literal presentation of what's occurring in any work. The literal presentation had to be seen and understood, and usually the author or the painter, the sculptor, whatever, the. The artist makes that fairly evident because it's at first glance. However, after seeing the literal, I had to learn to look deeper. I had to use my mind to investigate the metaphorical, or the allegorical, or any other abstract communication that the piece was conveying, which it often does. This is where critical thought and literary criticism came in. They helped me cultivate a deeper understanding of virtually any work of art, and they still do today. And seeing that second meaning makes all the difference in my appreciation of them. And in the same way, in the parallel I'm trying to draw, I think that critical thinking is needed to be able to see both the literal representation of what is being presented to us by society, but also the true motive or the allegorical or metaphorical meaning of what is really going on behind the literal. All of the advertisements that Chris encounters in the beginning have a motive behind them. They may sound on the surface as fun or appealing or alluring, but like the sirens of Greek myth, they don't care about Chris. They don't care about Chris's welfare. The advertisers only truly care about their pocketbook, in the way the sirens only cared about their self interest. If Chris could see and separate himself from this, he could form his own sense of self, his own identity, apart from the herd that continues to beckon him to go down a very wayward path. This is the type of critical thinking that can free us from the bonds and the chains of our oppression. This is the antidote, I'm arguing, to the bread and circuses that we experience every day.

C

And this is the moment for me to thank all my teachers, all my literary teachers that I've had through the years, even though I hated the subject, that they showed me what critical thinking is. And I really appreciate it because I think it's very important that we never forget to analyze everything and look between the lines and what you said in the end, find the allegorical and the metaphorical meaning behind everything.

A

Absolutely. Destiny. One of the things that's tragic about that is, and I'm certainly glad you appreciate your teachers toward that end, but the fact that we have to find it in English or find it in other subjects, humanities, things that aren't exact, or even things that are exact in terms of. That seems tragic in itself. And what I mean by that is one of the things I talk about in the book in that critical thinking chapter is how there are precious few, absolutely scant appearances of critical thinking in a curriculum in, at least in the United States. And it seems to me that there should be classes geared specifically toward logical fallacies, thought issue, ways of understanding the world on more than one level.

C

Absolutely. And I think that every time I see it less and less in the curricula too, here in Europe and everywhere. I was a teacher. I taught Spanish and to foreigners for. For some time. And I had this experience in. In schools. And I remember also my experience. And it was striking how different things are explained now and how little we expect from our students nowadays, to be honest.

A

And I echo that certainly from an American standpoint. My mom was a teacher and I watched her dedicate her life to do teaching. And there was quite a curve that she saw as well over her lifetime. She was born in 46. And I watched it. Yeah. And it continues to today, sadly.

C

Yeah. I guess this is part of the diversion, isn't.

A

Most certainly is. It's absolutely a big part of it. Yes. Because if we had that critical thinking, we could unlock it.

C

Yeah, absolutely. If readers take one main idea from False Idols, what would you want that idea to be?

A

In the last chapter, I give a very short vignette of Chris again. He's the bookends to the book, the first and last. And I show Chris before critical thinking and after critical thinking. And once he learns to recognize the bread and circuses, he behaves very differently. In the end of the book, with concepts, I talk about concepts that I adapted from Plato. Plato talks about the philosopher king in the Republic, this was the ruler who combines political power with sage like wisdom and knowledge. Marcus Aurelius would be a good example. He's the thinking ruler. I use Chris to suggest a new dynamic to the philosopher king, a new alternative, I should say to the philosopher king. I talk about the philosopher citizen. Rather than wait for the philosopher king to come, sort of this paternal figure to come and assume power without abusing it. I advocate for a citizenry that's enlightened and cannot be corrupted because it can think clearly and see through corrupt, power hungry and avaricious leaders like today, the ones we have today. So if we, the citizens of the world, to borrow Socrates, could become philosopher citizens, there will be no such thing, I would argue, as bread and circuses. The people would never allow it because they would be too wise to it and the society would be freed from the bonds of their opiate in the forms of bread and circuses. And that's the ideal that I'm suggesting.

C

Yeah, but I guess then politics wouldn't exist anymore. Would.

A

Would certainly look very different.

C

Kurt, we've taken up a lot of your time, but this has been a fascinating conversation and I'd like to close with the traditional final question. What are you working on now?

A

So I have two books in addition to this one that I have out at present. I'm marketing them as well, and I'm very busy with trying to market all three and get all three of them out there. The first can be seen as a companion piece to this one. It's called Utopia Realized In Search of a Just Society, and it presents a world wherein many of our society systems are reconfigured and reinvented. I use the knowledge I've accrued from as a social worker looking at those systems, and I reconfigure and reinvent those systems to work for the many rather than the few. I think some of them, I think. I think we could all agree that many of them are antiquated and need to be reworked. It reimagines virtually every major system in society toward this end and suggests the prospect of a much better existence for everyone. The second book that I have out right now is called Victory in Every the Anteist Approach to Overcoming Disabilities. It is a book that attempts to help individuals who are struggling with adversity or disabilities really of any kind, and it discusses different ways of thinking about these maladies that can empower them so that they can overcome them rather than feel the alienation that society often makes them feel. And lastly, I just want to note that I'm very passionate about writing. I'm always writing and it's certainly very dear to me. I have been experimenting with a new form that is both educational and entertaining. It addresses many important and taboo social issues today, and I like to think that it teaches sweetly. I'm very passionate about it and I have great hopes that it can certainly reach people and do some good in the world in the future.

C

Amazing. Kurt, thank you so much for joining us today to discuss False Idols, How Diversion is Destroying Democracy, and to our listeners, thank you for tuning in to this episode on the New Books Network. You can find False Idols through Vernon Press and other academic book distribution channels. We'll leave the link here and thank you for listening and we'll hope you join us again for more conversations with authors whose work helps us think more deeply about the world around us. Kurt, thank you again.

A

Thank you so much for having me. Really an honor to be here.

E

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