Kara Swisher

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Scott Galloway

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Kara Swisher

If you sit in the sun, you may just get burned, but some people are willing to take that chance. There is this certain degree of nihilism of like, oh well, the world is bad anyway. Why wouldn't I just also get a tan? Tan maxing. That's this week on Explain it to Me. Find new episodes wherever you get your podcasts. Do you have chest hair?

Scott Galloway

I don't recall.

Kara Swisher

You don't have chest hair. Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast network. I'm Kara Swisher.

Scott Galloway

And I'm Scott Galloway.

Kara Swisher

Scott, I want to understand why you took Ed to the game and not me. Explain where you are. I'm teasing.

Scott Galloway

Well, it's because I like Ed Moore.

Rob Bonta

I figured.

Kara Swisher

Yeah, yeah. Explain where you were.

Scott Galloway

No interest in World Cup.

Kara Swisher

I would have gone had I been asked. I would have considered it.

Scott Galloway

Do you want to go on Wednesday to Atlanta?

Kara Swisher

No, I don't.

Scott Galloway

Well, okay, so don't give me shit then.

Kara Swisher

Do you want to fly me there? Well, you know, last minute, I can't get places like you can explain to me what you did. Tell people where you were because you were quite. You looked the happiest I've ever seen you. I have to tell you, I might

Scott Galloway

have been the happiest I've ever. Or I've been In a while. Look, I have no interest in sports. I decided consciously, I used to play a lot of golf. Because when you're in your 30s and trying to run a strategy firm and you're basically renting your brain to old white guys known as CEOs, you have to play golf every weekend.

Kara Swisher

Right.

Scott Galloway

The only. Anyways, and I decided about 20 years ago I was going to pour all the time I was spending on golf into fitness, and I played sports in college, but I. I have no interest in professional sports. I think it's mostly a waste of time. Every four years, I go crazy for the World Cup. And this one has been the most special of the three, because the way I describe the World cup right now is it's a bunch of cousins who just love each other, and their parents are out of town and they're doing a sleepover, despite the fact that parents don't get along.

Kara Swisher

Oh, okay.

Scott Galloway

And I think when you're sitting in that stadium and I went through a lot of logistics and costs to get from Italy to Hard Rock Stadium in Miami and find seats.

Kara Swisher

It was Miami. I didn't know where that was. Yeah, Miami.

Scott Galloway

It was Miami. It was me, two friends and my youngest. But when you're in that stadium and 70,000 people are singing in harmony, Sweet Caroline, which is associated with team England, and then we all, including the English fans, hey, Jude. Well, Sweet Carolina, beginning of the game, hey, Jude at the end, in honor of Jude Bellingham, which is, in my opinion, the man of the tournament, but. And then everyone, including the team England fans, start rowing, which is the Norwegian signature. And when Norwegian airlines, living up to their bet, change their logo to British Airways.

Kara Swisher

Yeah, it was cute. Yeah.

Scott Galloway

It's like all of the goodwill that is resident in the world appears to be bubbling up in the world.

Kara Swisher

Also. Good men. I mean, the Norwegian guys, I miss. I'm sorry they didn't win. I liked his whole act, his whole manly act.

Scott Galloway

Jude Bellingham. Every time he leaves the field, he honors his mother. Talking about mental health. I mean, I'll do a longer diatribe on this next week, but I struggle, as a lot of people do. It's like healthy masculinity. It's like porn. We know it. We just don't know how to describe it. What's happening in the World cup right now, and you reference this with the Knicks, is pretty Damn close.

Kara Swisher

Yep. No, 100. It's the same thing.

Scott Galloway

Strength, generosity, understanding how to lose. You know, talking about mental health, talking

Kara Swisher

about underprivileged male hugging yeah.

Scott Galloway

Being affectionate with each other, getting along with their enemies. You know, it just. It's just cooperation, excellence.

Kara Swisher

Do you know what I call it? I call it. I call it un ugly. It's not. There's not a bit of ugliness in it. I have to say. I can 100% un ugly. There's so much ugliness. And we'll be talking about a lot of that today. But I just. It's really lovely. I mean, I just. I'm only going to miss the Norwegian, that's all. I just think he's. What's his name? Harlan or Holland? Holland. Yeah. He's amazing. I have to say, he looks like he could kill. Like he'd be the person on the bad end of a mace if you were living in the medieval times. But he actually is just like so adorable in really lovely ways. Just so kind. Like just a kind, large man, which is really a great juxtaposition, I think. Anyway, I'm glad you had a good time. So you're going to the semis and the finals.

Scott Galloway

I don't know if I can get to the semis. I'm going to try. I'm trying to see if I can just work it out logistically, because it's in Atlanta, but I'm going to the final. But you're talking about Holland, who plays for Man City.

Kara Swisher

Yeah.

Scott Galloway

When you're watching, if you know anything about football and you're rooting for the other team, you can't relax because this guy is like a great white shark just lurking out there, waiting to explode. And we have our own guy on Team England, this enormous guy who was able to neutralize him. But yeah, it's this fan. It's just fantastic. I'm enjoying it so much.

Kara Swisher

You looked very happy. You looked very happy.

Scott Galloway

Had a great time. You looked pretty great.

Kara Swisher

Time relaxed is what I perceived it. There's some other not so happy things going on. We're going to get to the 12 attorney generals suing against the Paramount merger, which just dropped. We're going to talk later and I'm going to talk to Attorney General of California Rob Bonta later. But we first have to start with South Carolina Republican Senator Lindsey Graham died from a terror in his aorta, apparently, According to preliminary findings from the D.C. medical examiner, Graham passed away on Saturday night at age 71, a day after returning from a trip from Ukraine where he was getting some stuff done. President Trump spoke to Graham hours where he died, noting he said he was tired but wanted to pass the Saba Merit, of course, I'm sure he did not say that. The scramble to replace Graham in the Senate and the short term and long term is underway. We're recording this before The South Carolina Governor Henry McMaster announces who he's appointed. The that's happening a few hours. Trump wants it to be Graham's sister, Nancy Mace says she's not pursuing an interim appointment, but would be remiss if she didn't look at running for the seat. Treasury Secretary Scott Bessen has also reported fielding calls to run. They can't really use House people because the House is it's such a thin margin. If they pull something from the House. It was pretty shocking because everyone was sort of focused on Mitch McConnell, who offered proof of life. On Sunday, after weeks of speculation of whereabouts in health, McConnell released a statement in a photo where he's holding Isn't

Scott Galloway

that proof of near death?

Kara Swisher

A lot of people don't think that photo is. They think it's AI, which is I would tend to agree. I've talked to a lot of experts. He said a fall led to his hospitalization. He's in rehab and won't be returning to the Senate quite yet. As you say, biology is undefeated. But there's still so much suss around this guy. Like what's happening with him. He's not running for reelection and I think he wants to stay around at least so that the Democrats, the Republicans

Scott Galloway

get to a point. As opposed to the Democratic governor.

Kara Swisher

No, no. The Democratic governor has to appoint a republic. The Democratic governor gets to a point. It just has to be a Republican. As they pass this law that now the Democratic governor might push back on and say it's unconscious. He should be able to do. He could appoint Thomas Massie, by the way, FYI, which would be something. So I don't think, you know, it's just what a mess. I mean, obviously Lindsey Graham was not that old. 71 is not old. I talked to Jeff, I had dinner, I'm in San Francisco with Jeff last night. And he said, you know, he apparently had some chest pains and was ignoring them for a little bit or had some discomfort. And this is something that just happens. It's what John Ritter died of it certainly if he had had been diagnosed, they could have done something about it. But a lot of people, this can kill people really quickly. Any thoughts?

Scott Galloway

I have a lot of thoughts here. The look, the, the Internet's gone crazy with conspiracy theories. So I have what technically qualifies as a conspiracy theory because it's in the fringe now because social media can make money off of it. And that is a 71 year old male who is out of shape, traveling and under constant stress, had a heart attack and died. I just don't. That's my theory here. And the larger point, and I want to come back later in the show to Senator Graham when we do wins and fails, but the larger point is that one of the things that really curses the world right now and causes chaos, oppression, authoritarianism can be reverse engineered to really old people that won't fucking leave.

Kara Swisher

Yeah. Oh, I like how you're pushing your hand on the desk.

Scott Galloway

I'm just.

Kara Swisher

Yeah, no, he's not 71. 71 old. I mean, I wouldn't. It is okay.

Scott Galloway

Are you kidding? To fly to Ukraine and back and understand TikTok. I mean, for God's sakes, go home.

Kara Swisher

Yeah, he didn't want to go home.

Scott Galloway

The average age of the of an American is 38. The average age of our senator is 65. Watching Mitch McConnell freeze up or talking about a 71 year old man have a heart attack as if it was clearly done by the Russians or the Iranians. This isn't a story about Mitch McConnell.

Kara Swisher

Right. For people who don't know one of the conspiracy theories was Russia.

Scott Galloway

It's a story about American political system that refuses to make room for the next generation.

Kara Swisher

Yeah.

Scott Galloway

If we got rid of tomorrow, if we decided globally, anyone over the age of 70 has to announce their retirement. Oh, you'd get rid of Netanyahu, you'd get rid of Putin, you'd get rid of Trump, you'd get rid of Biden, you'd get rid of these people on the Supreme Court that aren't even writing their own briefs anymore. They're just political ideologues. A third of the faculty I work with, the best faculty in the world, a third of them should be put on an ice floor.

Kara Swisher

What, like 65 you're saying? Right. Cause the 65 is for the New York Times. 65 is for generals. Okay. I'm just curious. I'm curious.

Scott Galloway

What, you're 72. 70. Well, I want to find a group of neurologists. Mitt Romney had it perfectly. The guy looks 50 years old. He looks like an Abercrombie and Fitch model. But he's about to turn 80, and he cited that by the time you're 80, key parts of your brain have shrunk by 10 or 15%. We don't need presidents falling asleep in briefings. We don't. Do you remember the same Bullshit. I get served the clips. Cause I know it outraged me of the CNN show. I feel stupider with Abby Phillips that basically the pattern is they've figured out they cheat code for massive viewership. They have essentially the chief propagandist of the Trump administration say something just ridiculous and then a bunch of off off Broadway progressives go fucking insane and they get, I think it's the highest rated show on cnn. They have Scott Jennings say something ridiculous. Right. And incendiary and stupid. And then he set out a conversation with them. Scott, you are lying. The same conversation I bet he had with Senator McConnell is the conversation I had with my father in hospice. The. And that is, I would say something. And my dad didn't know who I was or where he was. It is. So just think about it logically, for God's sakes. All this tumult, all this doubt. If he managed to, if he could, if they were capable of pumping him full of stimulants and just getting a 15 second voice recording honoring his friend Senator Graham's passing.

Kara Swisher

Yeah, he didn't say anything. They're very close. That was unusual because clearly he can't. Kara? Yeah, the picture was odd, I have to say. I think the issue is. Was astonishing and some of it funny, I hate to say it was all the memes and everything around Lindsey Graham. Obviously there's a lot of talk about his sexuality, which was. People are like, it's too mean. I'm like, oh, just let the world do what it wants. But the memeing that's going on here. And then the conspiracy theories are really heavy. Like they're somewhat heavy with Graham about whether he was killed by the Russians or poisoned or this and that. And then McConnell, forget it. It's now like open. It's really fascinating. I'm curious if you think it's a good thing or a bad thing, like these, these, these the memology and the conspiracy theories. And everyone looks at the picture and is, where is his thumb? Is it really an AI? Is it AI generated? Like it really just. Nobody believes anything. Nobody believes. And even the believable stuff is unbelievable, if that makes sense.

Scott Galloway

Well, conspiracy theories, they're more novel. Unfortunately, we've attached a profit incentive to conspiracy theories, which feels harmless and fun, but it essentially, it attacks our institutions that there's no one that's believable anymore. And we don't defer to our institutions. And so I think there's an underlying. Because the problem with these conspiracy theories that, oh, MRNA vaccines alter your DNA is That if you see it enough because it's novel and the algorithms elevate it beyond its organic reach, you should have the right to say conspiracy theories. The issue is, should social media companies that have a profit incentive to elevate it beyond its organic reach, you then normalize conspiracy theories. They then become less outrageous, and then they become self evident. And that's the problem, is that a lot of these fringe theories become normalized when they ordinarily wouldn't have, because we've attached a profit incentive to conspiracy theories. The broader point about Mitch McConnell into Senator Graham is that. But this isn't about. In these memes. It's not about mocking an aging man. Aging comes for all of us. The failure belongs to us, the people and the institutions that keep insisting that octogenarians should be making the highest stakes decisions in the world. And leadership in both parties increasingly resembles the board of a company that forgot that succession planning is part of the damn job. And every CEO is told in their final responsibility that they need to leave the company stronger than they found it. When we fire CEOs who don't build a bench and announce their retirement at some point, and in politics, we've somehow decided the goal is to die with your hand on the steering wheel and take people out with you. And experience matters, wisdom matters, but so does energy, cognitive sharpness, the willingness to pass the baton.

Kara Swisher

Yeah, but it's a game here. It's a game to keep him in place even if he's weakened at Bernie's, right? Even if he's like, that's why we

Scott Galloway

need age limits, Kara.

Kara Swisher

That's right. No, I agree, but that's what's happening because the numbers. He's not gonna be able to pass the SAVE act now because it's so tight. Right? And it's just nothing's going anywhere. And that's what they're doing here, is trying to game the system, whether not letting Bashir do his job or whatever. And in the house, the same thing. And it's all gaming. It's all gaming. And it doesn't matter if you have to prop up an old man. And you do start to believe it. I looked at that picture and I was like, that looks funny. Looks like he had a facelift. They're right. But then. Is it true?

Scott Galloway

I think it's fake. I'm gonna. Part of the tinfoil. I think it's fake.

Kara Swisher

I don't know. I don't. I. I just am. I definitely am. Like, huh? Sus. You know, I actually, like, I Literally was like texted Harvey Levin and said the the Republic is up to you to get in that hotel, I mean that hospital room and get us a real video of something. I mean, I can't believe no reporters can figure this out and we have to rely on Scott Jennings. I agree with you.

Scott Galloway

Let me just ask you an honest question. Let me ask an. Just a question that would require any semblance of logic given the tumult, given the doubt, given the power. If he just recorded not even a video, a 10 second voice memo, it's gone too far.

Kara Swisher

He's got to be wheeled out in front of him.

Scott Galloway

It would solve so many of his and the Republican Party's problems and he clearly can't even do that.

Rob Bonta

Right.

Kara Swisher

I would agree with you. I think if they wheeled him out in front of or in the hospital and he said I'm really sick and I'm trying to get better and that would solve it. But they won't do it. You're right, because they can't do it.

Scott Galloway

That's exactly right to me. Let me just wrap up because I do think that if the world would be such a better place if Netanyahu, Trump, Ginsburg, Biden had been forced to leave at a certain point. And the thing about America is we don't have an age problem. We have an incentive problem. We reward incumbency, celebrity and fundraising over renewal. And the result is a government that too often looks like it's being run by people who remember the Cold War better than they understand AI. If you want democracy, you have to believe in the importance of turnover. The best leaders don't prove their greatness by never leaving. They prove it by building a bench that's ready to replace them. Enough. Think about how much, for God's sakes, what would the world look like if we had more Zelensky and I'll even go Mamdani and we had more youth, for God's sake.

Kara Swisher

I would agree. And then they could duke it out, right? Then they could duke it out. That's fine.

Scott Galloway

Yeah, let them have at it.

Kara Swisher

Let them have their conspiracy theories speaking. I'm going to move on because we have to go to that. But Graham Platler has, speaking of young, trying to get a young, vibrant person and has officially withdrawn from the main Senate race following the accusation of sexual assault, among other troubling revelations from his past, which we had discussed. We did not. There was a point where said if it goes further than this, then forget it. Democrats have until July 27 to name a replacement to challenge Republican Senator Susan Collins. Actually, the Democrats chances went up with Platner coming out because he was declining. The main Democratic Party will hold a convention on July 25 where candidates can make their case to delegates for a nomination. Let's hear a clip we got from Axios reporter Holly Otterbein, who's been covering the race and how things stand. Now that Graham Platner is finally out of the race, Maine Democrats are scrambling to find a new nominee. By the end of the month, a whole boatload of candidates have jumped in. About a half dozen. And most of them either ran for governor or Senate earlier this year and lost. One of my biggest takeaways from the race as it's been shaping up so far is that Graham Platner is still having an enormous influence on the race. Now granted, nobody wants his endorsement, but a lot of them, almost all of them to a person, sound like Graham Platner. One of the biggest examples that I can point to is a man named Dan Kleban. He's a brewer. He's actually centering his campaign around voting against Chuck Schumer for Majority leader. A promise to do that. So I think that this shows that the main Democratic candidates have really internalized that. The Democratic base is furious. They're angry at the economy, they're angry at Trump, they're angry at their party and that that's what this Platinumania was all about. And that in order to win, that's what they've gotta replicate. That's very smart. What do you. Obviously we were wrong about Grand Clapper. Basically Scott and I said that the main voters should decide this, but if more came out, it would be a real problem. That's exactly what happened in this scenario. It matters because it is about control of the Senate and they have a very good chance of grabbing this seat if they do it right.

Scott Galloway

Look, I don't, as Democrats do, we're more interested in self flagellation than actually figuring out how to take control of the Senate. And I would argue, I would argue the Democrats largely got it right here. When he had a Tottenkampf tattoo came to light as a Jew, I found that really troubling. Having said that, a guy in the military dodging IEDs made a mistake and I saw no pattern of antisemitism. I wasn't willing to disqualify him and say he's an anti Semite cause I saw an errant mistake. I didn't see see a pattern. Then a woman said he was physical with her, very disturbing. She in the middle of a campaign was a Republican operative. All right. I think it was fair to say there's an asterisk around that accusation. When I was on holiday last week and I heard about this, this additional accusation of rape, I immediately went to YouTube and watched it. Within about five seconds I'm like, she's telling the truth. He needs to drop out immediately. I mean, it was just, quite frankly, it was just. And he did. Or he, or let me put it this way, he's still trying to hold onto his power. Basically. Democrats now are saying, how do we find Graham Platner minus the rape part? They're all trying to find a rough, like an oyster brewer, whatever you want to call it, tatted up, that does the drinks, Pabst Blue Ribbon or whatever. But now what we're doing is the following. Instead of focusing our energy on how we actually hold ourselves to a higher standard and will exit and off ramp people like this again, I'll go back to my favorite show on cnn. Scott Jennings said they asked him, do you think Platner should have resigned from the race? And he said, if there's corroborating evidence around this type of activity, sure, you should resign. Okay. The ultimate corroboration in our society around situations that have dramatic gray areas, context, nuance, you weren't there is the following. We put them in front of 12 people from different backgrounds, different viewpoints. We let the prosecution have input into the jurors. We have the defense. The President of the United States was found civilly liable for sexual abuse. So the notion that Democrats are spending more energy with this weird self examination as opposed to focusing their energy on how we will actually ticket people who run a yellow light versus the double murder homicide of plowing through stop signs, that is the Republican Party, I find comical.

Kara Swisher

Okay, so what do they do here? It looks like they're going to pick one of these, a lager or a brewer or whoever. They're gonna get one of these people. What is the move here from Troy Jackson?

Scott Galloway

In a weird way, all this ridiculousness around holding onto the land of the dead with McConnell and the fact that it's not unusual for a 71 year old man who's out of shape to drop dead, that happens, folks. I think it's gonna help us. I'm more optimistic about the seat. Cause I think they're gonna find somebody who has a lot of chest hair who says the right thing, who can tap into this movement. Hopefully Platner. Platner started or tapped into this movement. I Actually think he might be powerful on the campaign trail for the new person or whoever that is. But you think just keep him out.

Kara Swisher

No, keep him out. I mean, especially. And including his advisors. Did you see that interview with the two.

Scott Galloway

Oh, my God.

Kara Swisher

With that cringe they're going out with.

Scott Galloway

What's that voice called? Where they affect the voice?

Kara Swisher

Vocal fry.

Scott Galloway

Oh, my God.

Kara Swisher

I'm like, they're going out, the two of them. Anything.

Scott Galloway

Is this the Democratic Party? At the first, when I. It's. When I saw those two, I'm like, oh, my God, we're fucked. That's. Who's running the Democratic Party now.

Kara Swisher

I mean, the whole thing, it was just like, oh, my. How they just decided on this guy and didn't do any betting. That looks like any vetting whatsoever. I mean, this guy seems to have just. You know, at one point, a friend of mine, Lulu Garcia Navarro, had interviewed him for the New York Times. And he goes. She goes, is there anything else? And he goes, no, like. And of course, there was lots else, like. And that was pre. The. The second part, which was a lot of people saying he was a pig. And then there was a third part. This guy's.

Scott Galloway

You're right. He should just exit the stage. He should just go away.

Rob Bonta

Right.

Kara Swisher

And get some help.

Scott Galloway

But I do think. I think the aging, quite frankly, is gonna shine a light on Susan Collins, who is 76 and quite frankly looks 86. I mean, enough already.

Kara Swisher

Enough already.

Scott Galloway

Enough. Democrats. This is a layup. Find some guy, you know, with tattoos who.

Kara Swisher

Don't you go up there. Do you have chest hair? I don't recall. You don't have chest hair, do you?

Scott Galloway

Oh, my God, Are you kidding?

Kara Swisher

No.

Scott Galloway

They need to find a candidate that, like, that has big, you know, pieces of more masculine men, and they're crap than me.

Kara Swisher

Yeah.

Scott Galloway

They need to find a dude who. This is a problem. The Democratic Party.

Kara Swisher

Not a lady without a lady.

Scott Galloway

I'm just going to be very honest.

Kara Swisher

I know that. I agree with you. I agree with you. I agree with you. It has to be a guy.

Scott Galloway

Let's be smart. Not politically correct. Find a fucking. Find a fisherman who hasn't raped people.

Kara Swisher

Find a logger.

Scott Galloway

Okay, that might work.

Kara Swisher

A lesbian.

Scott Galloway

That might work.

Kara Swisher

Well, the fact that the Democrats cleared the field for Janet Mills, that to me was a Chuck Schumer fuck up. Like, cleared it for an older lady who did a very good job but was like. Was not palatable to voters because of age and other issues. That's the problem is Democrats. There could have been a really great race here, and they didn't. But let's hope there is one now. Okay, let's go on a quick break. We come back. Apple sues OpenAI. This is a corker.

Scott Galloway

This is advertiser content from Harvey AI. We have a choice over who we work with and who we don't. Specifically who we allow to advertise and who we don't. And for those of you who watch my content, I am not an AI catastrophist. I'm an AI optimist. I think it's going to create more jobs than it destroys. And I think our job as professionals is to figure out how to leverage these tools. AI, more than almost anything I do in terms of what I could point to for real economic leverage and savings, is 100% in the legal fields. Harvey is the AI designed specifically for legal work, trusted by leading law firms and enterprise legal teams. All right, so now I'm looking at their demo. It plugs into tools that lawyers already work with. LexisNexis, Microsoft. And this is a key. And I do this internally with my LLMs, with permissions. It lets you look at the firm's own files and databases. So here it's answering a question, reads the complaint, pulls the relevant terms, checks the web, weighs the evidence, and drafts a response. But it also can do this in a shared workspace between the firm and the client, so they both have visibility into the work being done and can both add value to it. I think the this space is clearly sort of hand in glove for AI, right? So there's no doubt about it. This, I think, is going to be super helpful, not only for law firms themselves, but internally for general counsels at companies. Harvey is AI tailored for law. You can learn more at Harvey. AI.

Kara Swisher

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Scott Galloway

OpenAI has had, I mean the hits keep on coming and not good hits.

Kara Swisher

It's a hot mess. It's a hot mess of a company.

Scott Galloway

I mean, they're being sued every which way but loose. They've had, I think their head of safety just resigned.

Kara Swisher

They did, yeah.

Scott Galloway

They shelved their IPO because it's clear the money furnace. I mean I feel, and I'm writing a post on this for the first time, I'm like, okay, this is 99. And if you remember, 99, it was first there was B2C went. We knew the technology was going to survive, but there wasn't enough demand on the front end. So the pets.com and the Amazon got cleared out first or went down 90%. And they're like, but wait, we believe in the technology, so it must be about B2B. And then when that didn't work, we went to the infrastructure place. OpenAI and Anthropic have both, it looks like, delayed their IPOs. All of a sudden, what looked like a supply crisis. Remember just a few weeks ago we were talking about there aren't enough data centers, there's not enough energy. All of the front end creating the demand, the majority of it has flipped to supply because they weren't creating enough demand on the front end. All of a sudden XAI and Meta have said that, oh wait, we don't have the demand. We thought on the front end we're going to flip to supply. So I think the cracks are really

Kara Swisher

beginning to emerge because then the supply will go down. And also then you have Alex Karp and others like Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella saying, hey, these AI companies are stealing your business. They're analyzing, handing it over to them lets them become competitors. That's a really interesting new wrinkle too is like they're going to steal your things. Of course people who have stolen things are telling you they're going to steal your things. So yeah, I agree with you. Something is about to like break, I feel, don't you? I mean it just feels like very precarious is what I would use the expression.

Scott Galloway

Oh, this is, this is. I feel like we're in Q3, Q4 of 99 right now. And just to get back to the case, Tan is accused of coaching employees on how to circumvent Apple's data security policies and encouraging them to bring confidential parts to interviews.

Kara Swisher

Goods on that. That's really bad.

Scott Galloway

Oh my God. And engineer Chang Liu allegedly kept his Apple laptop and exploited a bug to download files texting. LOL. So funny. And Apple stated that OpenAI has had to take unlawful shortcuts while under mounting pressure to deliver its first commercial hardware product. So if this was one of the AI players going after the other. But when Apple goes after you, and not only that, this is going to get a lot of attention because quite frankly this is going to snare the strafe is going to hit. Jony I've, who is a bit of an iconic legend there.

Kara Swisher

He was mounting a device company with OpenAI that then had its own accusations.

Scott Galloway

He started a device company that was acquired by OpenAI for six and a half, $7 billion. The majority of which I think will be written off. I think that will prove in terms of write offs and I think Jony Ives, a genius and an icon and deserves all his acolytes that will go down as arguably the worst acquisition of the last few years because I think they're going to have to write off the entire thing. And the interesting thing will be what the legal remedies will be because it'll take months or years depending on how quick OpenAI is to settle. However, it's going to have an immediate impact on the business. The device is expected to be unveiled this year. This gives them the excuse, Kara and this is my prediction for later in the week. The device is never going to happen.

Kara Swisher

Yeah, same thing with their browser, apparently. It was interesting because remember when this happened, everyone was like, oh, Apple just gave OpenAI a real lift. And then the deal degenerated into nothing. Like really. And now accusations of stealing. They're such a hot mess. Like every day someone leaves. People I think are quite well regarded leave. I think the number two executive really had health issues. Really?

Scott Galloway

Indeed.

Kara Swisher

From what I understand from people I know. But it seems like what do they do now? And of course Elon then looks like, well, just because a scammer tells you you're a scammer doesn't mean mean you're not A scammer, if that makes sense.

Scott Galloway

I don't think. I don't think Elon matters.

Kara Swisher

Yeah, he's just using. He's just piling on right here.

Scott Galloway

I can tell you as someone who's just spent a lot of time in boards talking about the right type of CEO, what people fail to realize is that there are just very few people in the world who can go from A to Z. There are people who can envision a company and hook up the printer and raise the initial seed capital and get it to letter C and D. There's some really talented people who can take it to do institutional rounds and get it to letter H and get it to scale. And then there's like a few dozen people in the world who are able to then do that and then run a public company. It's just you're asking someone to be a decathlete. And the way I would describe Sam Altman, if I were on that board, I would be saying this guy's a visionary. I don't think he's an operator. I don't think he's assessing the financials, the capital commitments, the risks, the relationships with people. There's a lot of the ability to retain talented people in some. He quite frankly looks like the guy's clearly a visionary. The question is, is he an operator? Steve Jobs was a visionary and a marketer. Tim Cook was the operator in the supply chain to go from $300 billion to 3 trillion. In my view, it's. I think Sam Altman should be kicked up to chairman and they should bring in an operator that understands how to run this types of complex organization.

Kara Swisher

I think that's exactly what's going to. Any name you can think of.

Scott Galloway

I wanted to ask you.

Kara Swisher

He's got a lot of burnt bridges, I'll tell you that. They're piling up.

Scott Galloway

You know what the example, I apologize for keeping interrupting you. It's going from Travis Kalanick to Dara Khasrowshahi. They need a Dara Khasrowshahi.

Kara Swisher

Who is Dara Khasrowshahi? They really do. Because then they could clean it up. And you know, because Sam has got a lot of people who don't like him.

Scott Galloway

And by the way, Travis is a genius and an innovator. He just wasn't the right guy for the company at the time.

Kara Swisher

And he's also a terrible person.

Scott Galloway

Who do you think?

Kara Swisher

I'd have to think really hard. There are several. The thing is, you've got to keep it exciting because you know your Competition is Darius. Right. Who seems to have some skills, more skills than Sam does and moving it forward. Right. So that's who your competition is. But you're right, Dara is Dara kind of a Dara like personality is like that. And there's not many, I suppose. Brett Taylor maybe. I don't know. There's some others.

Scott Galloway

That's an interesting one. That's a great one, actually.

Kara Swisher

Yeah, I'd have to really think. I'd have to really think. There are several. There are several. You know, had she been, had she lived, Susan Wojcicki would have been on the top of my list for that. I can't think of a whole lot of people though. I just can't. I just can't. I mean, they're gonna have to do something. But is this board strong enough to do it? That's the thing. Or are they gonna stick with Sam? But he's definitely created all, you know, and him, by the way, them tweeting back and forth, they look like fucking. He just walked into Elon's trap. Cause Elon, everyone thinks Elon's a villain and an asshole. And so Sam fighting with him is. It's a mistake. And I like homeboy and I agree with him about the short term data centers. Most people think it's kind of ridiculous, but you walk into everyone, it's already built in that Elon's an. And so you just become an asshole at the same time. Anyway, we'll see what happens here. I think you're right. I think he's. They're going to have to replace him. I do, I agree with you. All right, let's go on a quick break. We come back, California and 11 other states file a suit to block the Paramount Warner Brothers merger. I'll be talking to California Attorney General Rob Bonta, all about it.

Scott Galloway

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Kara Swisher

We're back. California Attorney General Rob Bont along with attorneys general, I think that's right. From 11 other states, a dozen just filed a lawsuit to block Paramount's $110 billion merger with Warner Brothers Discovery. The suit alleges the merger will help reduce competition, creating higher prices, less content and hurt movie theater cable distributors. Is quite a narrow lawsuit. Bonta and his fellow AGs are asking Paramount and Warner not to close the deal while the moves through the courts. So a couple things we want to talk about here. It's very narrow from what I understand talking to people. There's a lot of feeling at Paramount. I don't think they thought it was going to be a dozen of these things. I think the negotiations didn't go very well between Bonta and Paramount. There was this weird threatening to leave California, which I think is nonsense. So, Scott, give me your quick thoughts here.

Scott Galloway

I'm mixed here, Carrie. Cause I can see why when. And Republicans in the Trump administration are happy to weaponize the courts and the legal system to intimidate the press. I kind of applaud AGs in DAs in blue states pushing back and say, all right, girlfriend too can play at this game. Because quite frankly, I don't think there's a legal basis to claim that it's monopoly power. I think on a pure economic competitive level, when you're facing. When you're facing YouTube and these different platforms, I don't think it's a monopoly. So. But at the same time, what's good for the goose, right? I would just go through market share and say in terms of viewership time, you know, YouTube's at 12%, Netflix is at 9. The combined. I just fail to see how this triggers any sort of legal review. What is the legal justification for blocking this merger? It kind of just comes down to

Kara Swisher

that, that it creates like that becomes 86% of the market is shared by four companies only, versus six to seven or whatever it creates. You know, that's. This is the idea that it creates a smaller group of buyers, a smaller group of distributors, and that's essentially it. And then it raised. And then theater owners will have to raise the prices. A lot of actors are kind of upset. I think he has to do this. I think you're right. They have to show a little teeth here on some level, even if they.

Scott Galloway

So the. The argument. Argument on the ground. And I believe this. I believe that tens of thousands of creative jobs are going to go away. I think there's going to be a scream let out by the creative community that they don't even know what happened to them if this merger goes through. Because I think the only way to justify $112 billion acquisition price is to find quote, unquote efficiencies through AI. And they're going to move harder at this than anyone, despite their commitment to produce more movies or what have you. The problem is that the argument that there's too much concentration is like, well, folks, folks, we're trying to compete with the people you say are too powerful and that if you don't let us merge, all you're doing is strengthening numbers 1, 2 and 3.

Kara Swisher

Right? Yeah, I think that's what I see. I just got a note from someone at Paramount. It said It's a silly and laughable market definition. That's their answer, I guess.

Scott Galloway

I think this gets swatted away, but at the same time, there's such a huge ticking fee of like a half a billion dollars a month if this thing continues to go on.

Kara Swisher

Yeah. Starting September 30th, that they have leverage.

Scott Galloway

They may be able to extract something.

Kara Swisher

Yeah. Especially if London, if Britain also does it. It'll definitely slow them down. I think it's gonna close. I just. I'm not sure what. You know, we'll see where it goes. But they definitely have. They've dirtied up Paramount quite a bit with actors, talent, and I think the general public and I don't think the CBS stuff has helped. I think it's a minor part of it, but it's gotten an outsized attention. And I think they really. I think they may. And having the dinner with Trump thing wasn't a good thing. Look, you know, bringing reporters there. I've told them this, but we'll see. We'll see where it goes and we'll see what Bonta says. I'll also note I extended an offer for an interview with Paramount's counsel. Okay, Scott, now get out of here. I'm going to talk to California AG Rob Bonta. California Attorney General Rob Bonta is with me now. He's in the middle of quite a busy day. Rob, how's it going?

Rob Bonta

A good busy day. It's going well. We filed our lawsuit today and we're excited.

Kara Swisher

Yeah. So nice backdrop. You did it in front of the Hollywood sign. I just want to know how you thought. It's very well coordinated online. You've got a lot of all the other ags, you've got a number of senators, et cetera, sort of talking it up. Talk a little bit about why you were positioning it.

Rob Bonta

Yeah, I mean, we have lined up and synchronized the different attorneys general to talk about the lawsuit that we're collectively bringing. There's 12 of us in California, plus 11 others. Some of the other statements that you're seeing from Senator Murphy, Senator Warren, that's just organic. We haven't spoken to them. They're watching this issue and they have a viewpoint and they're expressing it. And we appreciate the support that they're showing. We're focused on the law and the facts here. And this proposed merger between Paramount, Warner Brothers violates Section 7 of the Clayton Act. And we think that the market concentration and the three markets that we've named, it's presumptively unlawful distribution. Yeah, right. Yeah, distribution of wide release films and also of blockbusters and then licensing of cable channels. So we think we got three, three clear markets where they violate the law.

Kara Swisher

So let's talk about the goals here because it's much narrower. You could have gone a lot of different directions here in this lawsuit and it's quite narrow actually. But what do you hope to get out of this lawsuit and how did it come to this? What's the goal?

Rob Bonta

The goal based on the lawsuit is to block the merger. If there is some sort of, of discussion that, that happens and you know, we're not inviting it or shutting the door on it. It's up to Paramount or Warner Brothers whether they want it. We, we will always engage in good faith. We will listen. But we've expressed our concerns very clearly, chapter and verse in, you know, nearly 40 page complaint which talks about the markets and talks about the, the impacts of the market concentration and how audiences will be harmed and workers will be harmed and quality will erode and output will decline. And we think we set it forth and if they have something that recommend or suggest to address our concerns, we will listen. But right now we, we're asking to block the merger. We're asking them to agree to not close the merger, consummate the merger while we're in litigation. If they don't agree, we're going to file a temporary restraining order and we think we'll get it.

Kara Swisher

You haven't done that yet for people to understand if they don't agree to slow it down. Correct? Is that correct?

Rob Bonta

Correct. But, but we need an answer from them today. And if they don't agree today, we're, we're filing later today.

Kara Swisher

It doesn't sound like they're going to agree today. That's my impression. They, they've released a statement. They also talking to people say I'm pretend I'm making Delrahim their general counsel. He, he, they let me say what they said on the record. Paramount fired back saying in a statement, the practical effect of this lawsuit is to shield those dominant streaming platforms like Netflix and technology companies from much needed competition. Obviously Netflix, you were noting Disney in here and Sony and Universal. Netflix and others are not in this. There's no mention of them. Explain why. Answer what he's saying right here.

Rob Bonta

He's talking about something not part of the lawsuit. He's talking about the streaming markets. We haven't brought a lawsuit based on the streaming markets. I know that's where they think they can win the PR battle, but that has nothing to do with the lawsuit and the legal case that we've brought. As you mentioned, these are highly diversified companies. We considered multiple markets before deciding on the three that we've challenged. And he is trying to rebut something. We're not even saying we haven't challenged the streaming markets, but I think they like that we're smaller than Netflix. Netflix is the bad guy here. Don't look at us. I think they like the deflection in that and I understand that from a PR perspective, but they are completely missing the mark from a legal perspective and a factual perspective.

Kara Swisher

Should you have included Netflix in here? Let's just address it. Because one, I mean, one of the reactions I got was it's a silly and laughable market definition. Why aren't they included?

Rob Bonta

Because we looked at streaming and we looked at the impacts and we thought we had a better case with the three markets that we chose. And so when we bring a case, we sort of try to envision all the aspects of it going to court with an expert, the likely defenses and rebuttals from the defendants. What the hhi, the index on market concentration shows how it measures up under us versus Philadelphia and the market share. That's an appropriate way to look at it. And we, we did that and landed with the three markets that we set forth in the complaint.

Kara Swisher

Even if you imagine that all these markets are now merged with each other, I think that's what they're going. It's all the same thing, essentially. And you are saying it is not all the same thing.

Rob Bonta

In other words, I think even Hollywood and the entertainment industry don't think they're all the same thing. I think they treat blockbusters differently than wide release films. Wide release films are different than select release, are different than streaming. They're different. I think maybe some people see overlap, maybe some people see some similarities, but the market definition, as you know, is very important in these cases.

Scott Galloway

It is.

Kara Swisher

Right.

Rob Bonta

We think we've landed on three very clear markets where antitrust law is being violated and we think they'll hold up to scrutiny.

Kara Swisher

So what you have to do is you have to prove the likelihood to succeed on its merits. To get an injunction, a temporary restraining order, essentially it goes to the California, Northern California court. Do you feel you have the likelihood to see merits with this more narrow group of issues you're bringing up?

Rob Bonta

Yeah, we think this case is very strong. We think that just like nextar, Tegna, you know, we went in, we saw it and secured, received a preliminary injunction basically based on the market concentration the percentage. Right.

Kara Swisher

You can either get a preliminary injunction or a tro. Correct. And that's.

Rob Bonta

That's correct. Right. And I think we'll probably file them both at the same time. But we want immediate relief, immediate blockage of the merger. And we think that with these three markets as defined, we think they're appropriate markets to define as we've defined them. And we think based on the index that courts rely on for market concentration, they are already presumptively illegal. So we think we have a very good chance of securing.

Kara Swisher

And some lawyers, there's some reporting, lawyers at the Justice Department felt that too. Correct. On some of the stuff, yes. But there are other jurisdictions that aren't that much as much under the sway of this particular company. How do you look at theirs? Sort of passing like a lot of these countries have passed on. Not Britain, but others have. Others across the world have.

Rob Bonta

I think it's appropriate for each regulator within their jurisdiction and their geographic market to consider the impacts. And their geographic market is different than ours. Maybe the product market is similar, but ours is different. And so this suggestion, I think that Paramount, Warner Brothers, and they try to advance this in their statement today is that, hey, all these other regulators approved us. What gives here? Well, it's a different market with different impacts to different analysis.

Kara Swisher

What the fuck? What the fuck, Rob? So when you think about the receipts, response is what? Not what do you want? But there was some talk that you wanted Paramount to divest cnn, that you said that and then you'd bless the deal. You've denied these reports, but what do you think of the idea?

Rob Bonta

I never said that.

Kara Swisher

Speaking for a friend. Speaking for a friend. Yeah, I'm teasing.

Scott Galloway

Yeah.

Rob Bonta

You know, I never said that. And it was interesting that that was reported. You know, it's come to a place in this. You know, I guess it's high stakes. There's a lot of pressure, there's a lot of of, you know, gossip, just straight out lies that are being advanced. And maybe that's part of a PR campaign. Maybe it's people, you know, just want to be part of something that they don't have inside knowledge on. But, you know, that definitely could be part of a, of an outcome here. I would say perhaps it could be necessary, but it wouldn't be sufficient.

Kara Swisher

Because you're talking about theaters, right? Because theaters is not cnn.

Rob Bonta

Yeah, I mean, it's not CNN at all. And so, you know, when you get into settlement discussions, should that ever happen here, you can be creative, There can be different aspects and components to it. But we're looking right now just at the litigation and the markets as we've defined them.

Kara Swisher

Now, there's also a report, as you know and I know you addressed it in front of the Hollywood Sign, that David Ellison is considering moving Paramount's headquarters to and allocating the company's $30 billion in planned spending if reallocating, if the lawsuit goes through. Personally, I don't believe. I think I've taken the under on this one. But how do you respond to that? Do you believe that could happen? Are you worried about it?

Rob Bonta

I mean, it feels like a potential monopolist trying to bully a state that is doing its job to regulate them. And it feels like a last ditch desperate effort to try to blackmail California and 11 other into not enforcing antitrust law, into allowing an illegal proposed merger to go through. And that's not going to happen. It didn't work. We're not doing that. We have filed our complaint in court. And, you know, I think they're on overdrive on their PR and what they're trying to suggest. And, you know, the statement that you were reading from, it feels like, you know, 1984, up is down, black is white. You know, this is great for workers. Listen to the workers. What are they saying? They're saying this is terrible for workers, but, you know, I guess we should listen to David Ellison and Paramount, Warner Brothers, and believe that it's good for workers and good for competition. They say it's good for all the things it's bad for. It's bad for workers, it's bad for prices, it's bad for audiences, it's bad for content, creativity.

Kara Swisher

There's certainly a lot of Hollywood people that are not for this thing. They weren't for the Netflix thing either, by the way. Even more so, I would say. Right, but where did you, the workers were the ones you had been hearing from the most? Who had you been hearing from the most in those groups? The distributors, the theaters, the actors, directors, writers. Was there one that had more weight than others?

Rob Bonta

No. But their collective voice was so strong and so unanimous. We talked to writers, we talked to producers, we talked to directors, we talked to actors, we talked to the crew. You know, Iatse, I attended hearings and honestly, I was inspired by the courage of actors who stood to lose a lot and people who work in this space who could be punished, blacklisted, who could be prevented from having a job. And they spoke on principle, with courage and conviction. And that meant a lot to me. I didn't really hear from Anyone who thought the deal was good for the entertainment industry, except for David Ellison and Paramount and Warner Brothers, those who are stakeholders who would be affected.

Kara Swisher

To be fair, there are some studio people that are like, look, it's getting hard against the tech people and bigger, stronger series of studios might be better to hold up in the current environment. There are people who do say that

Rob Bonta

that hasn't been strongly expressed to us, but I accept that there's some outside of Paramount, Warner Brothers who support the merger.

Kara Swisher

Two more things. This is 12 states. They're all Democratic states. Some people think it's a long putt you're doing here. At the same time, others say this is what Scott Gallard was saying. It's a good, good that you're pointing this out, that you're bringing it up, that you're punching back in some fashion. Do you think it's. Should you have tried to get more Republican GOP led Attorney General? You don't want it to look like a Democratic attack necessarily. But it's also a sign of things to come in the upcoming months, especially if the Republicans lose the House, the control of the House.

Rob Bonta

The door's not closed on additional state states joining Democratic or Republican. And I was grateful that our Ticketmaster Live Nation case was very much bipartisan. Our next Artegna case is bipartisan. This one could be, maybe should be. I think you have to ask the Republican states why they joined Ticketmaster, Live Nation or the ones that joined Next Artegna are feeling they shouldn't join this one on just law and facts. I don't think there's a principled legal or factual reason not to. So I don't know why they wouldn't. And so maybe they're just waiting. Maybe they don't want to be first through the door, but maybe we'll join later. That happened in ex Artegna. You know, the states that we started with on the filing date, it grew from then. And this should be nonpartisan, bipartisan, whatever you want to call it. This is just making sure that the markets are free and fair, not rigged and that there's competition.

Kara Swisher

Yeah, maybe Arkansas wants to become Hollywood. I don't know, in some fashion, but

Rob Bonta

they are big states. By the way, New York's in there, too. You got to always take notice of New York and California and Massachusetts.

Kara Swisher

Massachusetts you have. I think they didn't think Washington state was going join. That's my impression. But they did. In fact, they did all right. Of course, one of the things they're raising is you want to be governor. Of California. You need to do this. Would you address that issue that you. This is good for you, for Rob Bonda himself to sort of punch it. Punch it. Not just the Ellisons, but the Trump administrator. You know, it has. They have the links. They've been having a lot of dinner together. Can you address that, please?

Rob Bonta

Sure. This is good for. For the law. It's good for the rule of law. It's good for competition. It's good for consumers who are screaming that affordability is their biggest challenge. And they don't want prices to go up at movie theaters or on their cable bills. This is a bread and butter issue about how our markets are supposed to work. They're supposed to be free, fair with competition. Prices are supposed to stay reasonable. Choice is supposed to stay high and competition high, quality high. And so maybe those things are good for me personally, maybe they're bad for me personally. I have no idea. But I'm doing what I think is right. I'm doing it based on principle, based on the law, based on the facts. And I am not running for governor. I am running for reelection as California Attorney General. I'd be honored if my bosses, the voters of California voted for me. But maybe some of them will hate this action and maybe some will love it and maybe some will be in between. I have no, no idea. But I'm doing it because it's the right thing to do, not based on any political outcome or consequence from it.

Kara Swisher

Okay. All right. Thank you so much, California Attorney General Bonta. I really appreciate it. And I'll be watching to see what happens next in the next 24 hours, I guess. All right. Thanks, Rob.

Rob Bonta

My pleasure. Thanks, Kara.

Kara Swisher

All right, one more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails.

Scott Galloway

Is Kamala Harris running for president again?

Kara Swisher

Listen, I might, I might.

Scott Galloway

I'm thinking about it. But does anybody want that?

Kara Swisher

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Scott Galloway

Well, I don't see why not.

Kara Swisher

Absolutely. I think Kamala Harris should run for president again.

Scott Galloway

I don't think there'll never be a woman president in the United States. Now, wait, wait, wait. You can't just walk away on that.

Rob Bonta

Tell us why.

Scott Galloway

I know it's still early to talk about 2028, but as we build to our post Trump future, it seems to be a big question about the Democratic Party. Kamala Harris leads all of the presidential polling. So does this mean that the person who led the ticket in 2024 is going to lead the party again in 2028? The campaign needs to be called Bye Bye Biden. It's just a tainted brand. Do you think from a donor community largely that there's any appetite for a Harris return? I don't. I'm Esteed Hernton and this is America. Actually, catch us Every Saturday on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. It all started with Call me maybe. Over 10 years ago, we created Switched On Pop to listen closer, uncovering the songcraft behind even the glossiest of pop hits. Since then, we've released almost 500 episodes. We've defined the sounds of our modern soundtrack and interviewed hundreds of of musicians and music insiders, including the singer of Call Me maybe herself, Carly Rae Jepsen. I'm musicologist Nate Sloan. And I'm songwriter Charlie harding. And on July 14, switched on pop is embarking on a new chapter. We're stepping out from behind our microphones and in front of the camera to stream our podcast on Netflix. Now, you'll still be able to listen to the show anywhere you get podcasts, but now you'll be able to watch us each week, breaking down the sounds of the moment, digging into musical minutia with your favorite artists, and offering questionable dad jokes. As always, we're kicking off our Netflix debut with a four part series on the art of the song. With help from artists, producers and songwriters like Aaron Dessner, Audrey Hobert, Trevor Horn, Cypress Hill, and Taylor Parks. Stream Switched On Pop on Netflix and anywhere you get podcasts every Tuesday starting on July 14th.

Kara Swisher

What is happening? What am I seeing? This is not real.

Scott Galloway

And I'm like, what is that unexplainable? The show about everything we don't know is coming to Netflix. Come on, you're not serious, right?

Kara Swisher

It's real. Oh my gosh, I'm freaking out.

Scott Galloway

We'll still be getting into all the huge questions that can take over your life. Are there different ways that humans might be dead? Do we live inside of an enormous black hole? Why do we keep cry?

Kara Swisher

What if I eat it?

Scott Galloway

But now we're going to be able to show you all sorts of things we never could before. You really have no choice but to just let your mind go wild. Unexplainable is going to have new video

Rob Bonta

episodes every Monday on Netflix, with new

Scott Galloway

audio episodes still dropping every Monday and Wednesday.

Kara Swisher

What kingdom? The chicken of the end.

Scott Galloway

Every Nobody asked if the chicken or

Kara Swisher

the egg came first or second. The egg or the chicken.

Scott Galloway

Nobody knows what was there at the beginning.

Kara Swisher

What came first.

Scott Galloway

Unexplainable, a podcast from Vox now on Netflix.

Kara Swisher

Okay, Scott, welcome back. Let's hear some wins and fails you go first.

Scott Galloway

When I was in Miami and at the Hard Rock Stadium watching Team England play Norwegian, Norway and Norwegian fans started singing with English fans. Sweet Caroline. And then English fans started doing that rowing motion. It just gave me so much hope. I was so desperate for. When you hear 70,000 people who come together like kids who love each other, but their parents have been arguing, it just that collective humanity and the athleticism. I really do believe that the World cup has tapped into this need to remind each other that. That we have more that we share than differences. I just. That was such a. You know, I've been to. I don't care about sports. And then every four years, I get really into it because my kids are into it. I took my son to Moscow in St. Petersburg eight years ago. We went to Qatar four years ago. This is by far the best because this is. This is the encapsulation of something wonderful. And that wonderful thing is that people around the world, world feel, especially in the west and in democracies, feel a sense of camaraderie and comity of man. And our leaders have been getting in the way of that, and they've been dividing us, and we're actually not that divided. We're being divided. And that game just reminded me of it. And it just.

Kara Swisher

It is a contrast to, like, the political stuff, because the minute Lindsey Graham died, Trump was, like, taking advantage of it. Like, it's so gross. You know what I mean? Like, it's such a contrast.

Scott Galloway

Well, you know what's made this World Cup. Great question, frankly, is none of these leaders are anywhere fucking near it.

Kara Swisher

That's right.

Scott Galloway

Thank you for staying out of it. Yeah, thank you for staying out of it. Just don't, don't poison it. And in the moment that Trump did enter it, it kind of fucked everything up for the American team, in my opinion. Anyways, that's my one. My fail is a little bit. I've thought a lot about this, and I really want to get your viewpoint, including if it's pushback. When I was at ucla, I didn't think I knew a gay person. And when I found out I was at UCLA at a pivotal time for gay rights or society as it relates to how it. How it feels about the gay community. And that is, within two years of graduating, I found out not only did I know gay people, but my roommates, my best friend, and several of my fraternity brothers were gay. And the reality was, from 1982 to 1987, at UCLA and in America, you were not allowed to be gay.

Kara Swisher

You were not.

Scott Galloway

You just. And those of us who are heterosexual never really and still don't understand the shame that America was putting on gay people. And I know you felt that. I definitely did and can relate to this. And then the way we treated people who got this plague, the shameful way that we treated this community when they were at their, you know, these young men, mostly young men who were at their most vulnerable. And so I empathize with men and I haven't walked in those shoes that were closeted. But the reality is, I think Senator Graham deserves to be lauded for his service, his ability to get deals done. He was well liked. But I don't think his legacy is going to be kind.

Kara Swisher

No, I don't either.

Scott Galloway

And this is where I go with this. And I'm really reticent to talk about this way because I do believe you need to err on the surface side of positive and grace when someone passes. But my belief is that Senator Graham's hypocrisy will be his legacy. And his hypocrisy isn't about being gay. It's quietly benefiting from the courage of people who risked everything to secure equal rights. And then turning around and arguing those rights should be denied to others, which he consistently did.

Kara Swisher

And then affiliating with people who were pulling it. Affiliating with people who are pulling those.

Scott Galloway

And you can relate to this because you are one of the people here. Every freedom the LGBTQ community enjoys today and that Senator Graham enjoyed was because someone else paid the price.

Kara Swisher

I would agree.

Scott Galloway

People lost jobs, were rejected by their families. You were turned away by our security apparatus. They were arrested, they were beaten, they were ostracized. And in some cases, people were killed for the simple act of living honestly. And they accepted those risks such that the next generation generation wouldn't have to endure that bullshit. And to enjoy the protection their courage created while publicly undermining it isn't just inconsistent.

Kara Swisher

I would agree.

Scott Galloway

It's a profound failure of gratitude and integrity. What it says is, at the end of the day, it says I deserve these freedoms. But people like me don't.

Kara Swisher

Right? Let me tell you, back in those days, it was very much. I saw Graham at gay bars. I did when I. I was young. He was with another congressman very frequently. And nobody said anything at the time, like everyone knew who he was. There were a lot of people like that. It wasn't just him. Especially in the Reagan administration, there were a bunch of gays who were doing anti gay things. I was on the fence about outing people back then, back in the day. And the only time I would say when they were doing things that were specifically anti gay that was okay. Otherwise. Kind of a live and let live kind of person that said by this year 20, in the year of our Lord 2026, it was fucking ridiculous. And he was affiliating with people who were hurting gay people. And I would agree with you, he

Scott Galloway

could have been a hero.

Kara Swisher

He could have been a hero. And he just was. He was ashamed of himself from what I can see. And I had heard about it, of course, as most gay people sort of. There's sort of a whisper kind of thing that happens with gay people. But it was enough. It was absolutely fucking enough. The way he was behavior. I think more to the. It was sort of this Remora fish personality he had and people, you know that he was close to John McCain and then he turned and very kind, very close to the Bidens and then completely turned on them just to attach himself to a stronger man, which in this case was Trump. And that may have been a real conversion by him, but he was constantly pretzeling himself in really uncomfortable and I hate to say the unnatural acts all the time. And I thought it was pretty gross. I think it was. And I think he could have been a great one. Especially the stuff he said about Trump initially was just like JD Vance was absolutely accurate. But he decided power was more important than principles.

Scott Galloway

There's a lot of people who haven't acquitted themselves well in order to be close to the flame of power.

Kara Swisher

Yeah, I get it.

Scott Galloway

What I think this goes deeper and that is I think a person's character should be measured by their willingness to bear the cost of their convictions. Otherwise they're just opinions. And when you ask a Senator Grant Graham did others to carry that burden while hiding behind the rights they won for you. You've outsourced courage and privatized the benefits. And history remembers the people who stood up when it was dangerous, not those who waited until it was safe and then tried to pull up the ladder behind them.

Kara Swisher

Including straight people who went out like I'll never. I'll never have a newsome because of what he did around marriage. I'm sorry. He took. He took a stand that was hurtful to. That hurt him badly at that time. And so yes, things cost things and he did not pay any prices and he was constantly angling for power. And the reason he was closeted is so he could be more powerful. Right. So it all had to do with his desperate need for power. And it is a bad legacy for someone who you had a sense could have been greater. Right. Anyway, you're right. I think there's nothing controversial about what you're saying.

Scott Galloway

Look, I think his legacy is the following. The cruelest. The cruelest part about this is not just betraying yourself. You're betraying the people who absorb the blows so you could live a safer life. Which he did and then paid the price. He collected the dividend and then voted to cut it off for the next generation. And some he was cashing checks that other people wrote. And I think that's his legacy. And it's a terrible thing to say after he has been deceased. But I know so many people, including your yourself, who paid a real cost such that such a younger people could enjoy the rights they so much enjoy. And not only that, the Republican party's come a long way on this.

Kara Swisher

Yep, I agree.

Scott Galloway

And he was not only not an ally, he picked up the gun and fired it, you know, at his own troops.

Kara Swisher

Yeah, I would agree. I would agree. And enjoyed the, you know, the closet in a sub. It was gross. I agree with you. That's a very good one. I am going to do a win is which is, you know, you're talking about going to the. To the game. I was joking. I didn't want to go to your game because I was actually with my son Louie and we hiked all around San Francisco and I have to tell you, I think it's. We. We hiked on this beautiful Sutro open reserve and just had the one most wonderful long hike all day long is this idea of people and you're seeing it more and more getting out of the whole noise. Irl, irl. And it's not like we talked about politics. We talked. We didn't like, we were like I don't about want to talk about politics. It was. We talked about everything and it was such a delight. I have to say. I kept saying to myself, I have to stop like being eternally online in a physical way. And I don't mean because we talked about lots of issues. So I just feel like IRL is the next is really a trend. I thought at first it was like a fake trend, but it really isn't. It's really something I think people are very much longing for in a way that's really quite. I think it's really significant going forward, including going to the movie theater. I've had some really great times recently going to the movie theater. I went to see, by the way I went to see the Moana Live, which didn't, you know, didn't do well. But I got to tell you, it was charming and totally enjoyable to go to the. I've gone to so many movies lately and so have all my kids, which is really interesting, and I really encourage that. This IRL stuff, in whatever form it takes, I think fail is the failure of what you were talking about is the. Is. Is this, this the fact that people look at that picture of Mitch McConnell and think this is fake, that that's where we are, every nobo. Tell them the truth they're creating when they could fix it very easily and act with ethics and honor. It goes to what you were saying about Lindsey Graham and everything else is that we are now convinced they're lying as the beginning, not at the end. And it was troubling. And everyone was like, oh, those memes were so mean. I was like, oh, come on, come on. That's the world now. And I don't mind those as much as the fact that nobody really good people don't believe things now, right? There's always a group of people that are going to be conspiracy theorists and kind of nutty, but really normal people are like, is this real? What? Why can't they just do the right thing and, like, show up in a video? Like, show, show up. Like, come out physically. Like, speaking of irl, just wheel the old man out and look at him. He shouldn't be in office, but why not do that? And all this, this, this fakery is such like. Or pretending that Trump's not sleeping. He's sleeping, everybody. That's what he' I just. It creates this sort of disbelief in our system that it's really starting to get really irritating on many levels. Anyway, that's my. And I think that picture is sus. Sorry. I agree with you, Scott. It's very sus. It's a sus picture, even if it's partially real. We want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech, or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com pivot to submit a question for the show or call 85551, pivot. Elsewhere in the Karen Scott universe. Scott, you talked a few weeks about how much you admire Bill Maher. Did you know you got a shout out on his Club Random podcast? You came up while he was interviewing actress Bo Derek, of all things. Let's listen. Who was it? It was on your show, I think Galloway.

Scott Galloway

Yes, Scott Galloway.

Kara Swisher

I think he was talking about the bullshit of of course.

Scott Galloway

Of.

Kara Swisher

Do what you love, and you'll never work a day in your life.

Rob Bonta

No.

Kara Swisher

Do what you're good at, and then you'll make a good living and you

Scott Galloway

can do what you.

Rob Bonta

You want.

Scott Galloway

I did not know that. Seriously, I didn't know that she. Can we just pause that? Boder is thinking about me.

Kara Swisher

Yeah, she is. But you saw Emily Radajkowski got a big book deal.

Scott Galloway

I saw that. And by the way, I heard an excerpt from her book on the New York Magazine website, and it's. It's well written.

Kara Swisher

She's beautiful. Her first book was. I. I interviewed her because the book was well written.

Scott Galloway

Yeah, I was really. I was like, she. This. This woman knows how to write. Yeah, I know.

Kara Swisher

There it is. Yeah, there it is. Anyway, Bo Derek. Good to know. All right, that's all I have for you, Scott.

Scott Galloway

Thank you for that.

Kara Swisher

That's the show. Thanks for listening to Pivot. Be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back on Friday.

Scott Galloway

Today's show was produced by Lara Amen, Zoe Marcus, Taylor Griffin, and Todd Wiseman. Ernie Intertad engineered the episode. Thanks also to Dubros, Mi Sevira, Dan Shalon, and Kate Gallagher. Nishat Kuroh is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Make sure to follow Piper on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot and Box Media. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Kara, it is coming home. Jude Bellingham, Harry Kane. This is. This is. This is our tournament, Kara. Go England.