Netflix Chases YouTube, Meta's AI Photo Grab, and Disney Fights the FCC

Podcast Host (Kara Swisher)

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Kara Swisher

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Kara Swisher

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Kara Swisher

Why wait? Ask your doctor. Visit botoxchronicmigraine.com or call 1-844botox to learn more. That guy works the lesbian look so beautifully. I've told him this to his face. I'm like you look like a lesbian. I used to date back in the 80s. Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher. Scott is off again. Who knows where he is? He's floating around on some yacht in some Italian area I think. But I have brought in someone who is much smarter than him. Matt Bellany, journalist, founding partner of Puck and host of the Town podcast. Welcome, Matt.

Matt Bellany

Thanks for having me. I don't know about that comparison to Scott, but I'll take it.

Kara Swisher

No, he's really smart. But in the topics that we're going to be talking about, and there's so many of them, you are. You just do an amazing job and an amazing reporter on Hollywood and broader. You talk about AI and all manner of things. And I just want to put a. Also a shout out to Eric Gardner, who writes with you sometimes on the legal stuff. Riveting.

Matt Bellany

He's great. Yeah, Once a week at Puck. He's great.

Kara Swisher

I got to tell you. Important, actually, it's stuff I didn't know about. And you understand how. Especially around copyright and things like that. Anyway, it's really good. I've been having. One of the things reason I wanna have you on. Cause you really have written some of the smartest stuff around a lot of these mergers and more to come. And so I wanna sort of get a preview of where you think are going. But I wanna. You recently. I wanna bring something up. You recently said, K and Lions is a tacky business conference. How did that go? I agree with you. But how did that go over? Okay, it's not tacky. Tacky. I would. The wine is lovely, but it's tacky.

Matt Bellany

Well, you say enjoy the. So, listen, I did an intro my newsletter a couple weeks ago during Cannes lion, which I called it a soulless corporate boondoggle and that I would not be attending that year. It seems to have triggered everybody who was there because I kept hearing from people that it was coming up at different panels. Ben Smith asked Alex Cooper about it on his panel. And listen, I think it was a little misunderstood. I don't mind a boondoggle. Like, I love a good boondoggle. The problem with Cannes lion is that they call it a festival of creativity.

Kara Swisher

You're right. Correct. Yes.

Matt Bellany

And it is not. It is about platforms for selling advertising.

Kara Swisher

That's correct. That is correct. Yeah.

Matt Bellany

I, you know, through my career covering entertainment, I go to the Cannes Film Festival, which happens a month earlier. That to me, is Cannes, because, yes, it's a market, but it's ultimately about the art and displaying the art. And you know, even like my joke is that Cannes Lyon makes the TV upfronts look like the Oscars. Because at least at the upfronts, they're talking about the product, the shows, the movies. It's all about the talent. It's all about. That is not Cannes Lion.

Kara Swisher

Slinging ads is how I look at it.

Matt Bellany

The Slinging ads. It's about ads, and it's about AI, empowered, engagement, technology, and just all of that stuff, which is fine. Acknowledge it, but don't like. These ad executives get up there on. On their podiums and talk about storytelling and the creativity.

Kara Swisher

Storytelling is back. In case you're interested.

Matt Bellany

It's all about Rita Farrow at Disney. The ads, the ads chief was all about, you know, we empower storytellers. And I'm just like, stop. You're selling that.

Kara Swisher

Pay for storytellers with the ads.

Matt Bellany

Yeah, whatever. It's just the whole thing. The whole thing to me is gross. And, you know, it doesn't mean I won't go in the future. I like a good glass of.

Kara Swisher

I have to say, when you. It's good for it. Everyone's like, why do you keep going? I'm like, it's really good for my business. I get a lot of ads there. Like, I get a lot of business.

Matt Bellany

More power to you.

Kara Swisher

You know, you're sort of like. You're sort of prancing for the. For the. For the advertisers, essentially.

Advertisement Voice

Yeah.

Kara Swisher

Which is fine.

Matt Bellany

Upfronts are ultimately about that as well, but they're also about the creativity of the people who make the content. And I don't think, you know, when. When Alex Cooper goes there, she's not talking about, you know, the nuances of what. What goes into her show. She talking about who she reaches, how it's a big audience and why you should buy ads with her.

Kara Swisher

That's correct. Yes. She's prancing. Prancing. You know, you're like, you know, I think what it.

Matt Bellany

What it tapped into is this. You know, there is a changing of the guard going on right now. The creator economy is gigantic. Obviously, I know that the Cannes Film Festival has probably seen better days in terms of relevance to the larger culture, but it's still ultimately about the art. And that's what I was saying.

Kara Swisher

Yeah, that's true. Yeah. Yeah. We're slinging ants. That's what we're doing. That's why I'm there. Also, the rose is excellent. And also my kids. I took my kids. And we have a good time, I'm sure.

Matt Bellany

You know what? I love a good yacht party.

Kara Swisher

Yeah, I don't go. I can't go to those anymore. I got invited to one. Piers Morgan had one, and I was like, there is nothing I would like to not do more than be on it.

Matt Bellany

That's an interesting ethical question.

Kara Swisher

Yacht. It doesn't go anywhere. They keep it There. It doesn't, like, move.

Matt Bellany

Those are the worst. The ones that are parked in the. In, like, the harbor there. It's like, yeah, what's the difference between this yacht party and going to a podium or, like, a little, like, you know, beach setup? There's no difference. It's just. You're floating.

Kara Swisher

Yeah. Yep. Absolutely.

Matt Bellany

No, you gotta actually go away. But then the question is, would you get on a boat with Piers Morgan and go to a second location?

Kara Swisher

I'm not gonna answer that. I doubt it. I doubt it. I doubt it. There's one of us wouldn't come back. Let's just say no.

Matt Bellany

I like Pierce, but. I'm joking. But there's a lot of that. And trust me, having gone to the Cannes Film Festival for many years, you know, there were a lot of Harvey parties. There were a lot of European movie producer parties on those yachts. And, like, you literally, you get on the boat and you're like, where am I going right now?

Kara Swisher

Yeah, I went. I'm going to tell one yacht story. I have been on exactly one yacht, and it was Eddie Lampert's yacht. And someone made me. Some ad person's, like, come out and see this fucking yacht. Because it's quite. He lived it. Lives there, apparently. And he was fascinating to talk to, actually. He, you know, he was the investor. He did Sears. So I knew all about him and everything. And it was. And I was like, after being on the yacht, and it was beautiful. I was like, I don't ever want to be on a yacht again. This is kind of soulless in a weird way that made me uncomfortable. But the only thing that was great is I. Of course, I wandered around the whole yacht looking at everything, because I'm that person who wanders around yachts and looks at your things. And I opened a door, and inside was the guy that did her. Spike Jones, the guy who manages Madonna.

Matt Bellany

Gaia Seri.

Kara Swisher

Gaia Seri. And one other person was a famous person, and I was like, oh, hey. And they were just in a room talking, and I was like. And I closed the door really fast and ran. It was. It was a strange meeting.

Matt Bellany

I would definitely accept an invite for David Geffen's yacht. Yeah, I think that's fun. And when he used to post photos on Instagram of the weird collection of people, it would be like, Tom Hanks and Oprah and Jeff Bezos, like, weird people. I. I just wonder, like, it's just such a. Seems like an awkward situation when you accept an invite to go on one of Those yachts and you don't really know who else is going to be there. And then all of a sudden you're on a yacht for a few days. I know this collection of random famous rich people.

Kara Swisher

I do not do this. I literally don't. It's so not my world. But anyway, I would agree with you about can. I just think it's fine to have a business conference and it is actually effective for people who are selling ads.

Matt Bellany

Oh, trust me, I got many invites to go next year.

Kara Swisher

Yes, yes.

E

Yeah.

Kara Swisher

Anyway, that'd be funny. We should do a whole thing. Is this a tacky boondoggle? We're going to do that next year. We're going to completely work that. Any. Anyway, we've got a lot to get into today, so let's dig in. First, I wanna begin with, I think, a pretty big story. Lawyers for several states are finalizing an antitrust lawsuit challenging Paramount's acquisition of Warner Brothers, likely to be filed next week. It is gonna be filed. I know a lot about this. They have been in touch.

Matt Bellany

It's politically untenable to not file a case, correct?

Kara Swisher

That's correct. The suit could. Let me just put it out. Sue could interfere with Paramount's plan to complete the deal in the coming weeks. The DOJ cleared the acquisition rather quickly last month. Talk about the lawsuit of obvious, it's Rob Bonta from Californ. But there are other states. There's several states involved and of course there's the ongoing British. The person who's head of essentially competition in Britain is saying she's sort of adjacent, curious of slowing this thing down at the very least, which was unusual for her to say. Several British people are like, ah, that's not great for them. It could be a leverage thing. Talk about the entire thing and where you see it going.

Matt Bellany

It's an interesting one because first of all, the antitrust case here is not as strong as some other ones recently.

Kara Swisher

Absolutely not.

Matt Bellany

Live Nation, et cetera, like this one. You know, Paramount and Warner's are not leaders in the industry and they're battling these big tech players like Netflix, Amazon, Apple. So it's, it's. You know, when they say this merger is pro competition, it's sort of their buzzword. They always say in their press releases, like they're not totally wrong if this works and they can create a legitimate competitor, a Netflix to an Amazon like that, that is pro competition. Now, obviously the wreckage within Hollywood to do this is going to be thousands of jobs lost and a legacy studio vanishing. And that's what's gotten everybody up in arms. The state action, it's going to be tough, but they need to clear a injunction to actually stop this. They need to go to a court. And a court needs to say, okay, not only do you have a likelihood of winning here, I'm going to enjoin this merger from closing. That's the real leverage. If they can get that, then they're going to be in the best position to extract whatever. Not whatever, but significant concessions, because I think that's what this is all about.

Kara Swisher

Explain what's happening behind the scenes. Obviously, Megan Delrahim, who is their general counsel, is in the middle of this. He's been in the middle of the British thing. They're fighting it on two fronts. And I think the British group essentially just wants stuff like promises.

Matt Bellany

Yeah, I actually think the states want stuff, too.

Kara Swisher

Yes, they do want stuff. So explain what. First, start with the British. Just for people to know there's a big Harry Potter studio out there. There may be some people visiting it. The tourism stuff. They want job, some children's programming stuff. Explain what they want in Britain versus the U.S. yeah.

Matt Bellany

So first of all, there's varying reports as to what they actually want because they haven't actually said the children's programming thing doesn't seem be that big of a problem. Paramount has a joint venture in the UK to distribute movies, and it's with Comcast, with NBC Universal for the Universal movies. And there's a scenario where they exit that. Now, they may actually want to do that on their own because the Ellisons may want to just not have a partner there. But that's one area where they are. They are together with a competitor that they may have to divest there. There's also some television interests there that they have. The real goal is to get them to concede to certain things. And if it's a divestment of certain television interests, if it's an exit from this joint venture, that's something where they can claim victory and then they can move on.

Kara Swisher

Or jobs. Job retention.

Matt Bellany

Well, I don't know. Actually, that has been something that the European regulators have gone after in the past.

Kara Swisher

They have.

Matt Bellany

So that could be now. I think that is something that is going to be much more relevant for the state cases. Rob Bonta in California, he's interested in preserving jobs and getting a commitment from the Ellisons to continue to operate Warner Brothers and Paramount separately. You know, David Ellison has committed to releasing 30 movies per year from the two studios in theaters, 15 a year. Which is a pretty robust slate.

Kara Swisher

Right. Committed. He has. No, he doesn't have to. It's. He said no.

Matt Bellany

That's, that's my point is that maybe they get that in writing.

Kara Swisher

Right?

Matt Bellany

Maybe there is some kind of commitment to do that for 10 years in writing. Maybe there's a commitment to avoid, you know, the sweeping job losses at the different studios. So they're, they're, they're looking here. They're. The strategy is to try to use the lawsuit and the threat of a delay here, because, remember, $650 million per quarter Paramount has to pay to warn and discovery in a ticking fee after October 1st. So if this drags on, it gets more and more expensive for them and they're trying to use that leverage to get stuff. I believe that ultimately a consolidation or a concession here might be that they would try to get them to sell cnn because obviously this is a political concern that is not an antitrust concern. And Bonta has kind of punted on that. But I know that in the Attorney General's circle, that is something they have discussed as a.

Kara Swisher

They have. I would agree with you. I would agree.

Matt Bellany

The problem is that's not really an antitrust remedy.

Kara Swisher

Right. How can you make someone do that? I mean, part of me is like, good idea. The second is like, can you really make someone do. Sell something you don't want to sell?

Matt Bellany

And the CNN business, while still robust, hundreds of millions of dollars a year in profits. That's not the basis of this merger. Like the linear networks are not.

Kara Swisher

No, but it's a sticking point. It's a stick. It's a, it's political.

Matt Bellany

And this has become a political issue now. The Ellisons made it political by jumping into bed with the Trump administration so much. But now you have Elizabeth Warren, you have Lina Khan, you have all the antitrust people that are putting pressure on. On other Democrats like Rob Bonta, who wants to have a future in Democratic politics. And he needs to do something here and get some kind of concession or trophy that he can go back to the Democrats and say, we let this merger go through, but we got X, Y, Z.

Kara Swisher

So what. What, do you think he can get that? Do you think the Ellisons would, would disgorge that, for example? Or what else? What else could he get? What else? What would be as important?

Matt Bellany

I know there is a document that resides at Paramount that has all of the things that they are willing to concede. And it's just a question of how far down the menu they will go and what they actually ask for. I don't know if they're going to agree to preserve jobs specifically. I mean, if you look at this company, they have $80 billion in debt.

Kara Swisher

They're. There's no other way. No other way. No other way.

Matt Bellany

Yeah. The entire transaction is premised on significant synergies. So if you all of a sudden agree not to fire people and then you do this deal and you're stuck with all this cost and you're trying to appease your lenders and your Middle east backers, like, that puts you in a really tough spot.

Kara Swisher

It does. And many people off the record who sort of perform really say, yeah, great idea of a studio are like, the money. Like, good luck. Every smart person I know is like, I recall having a meeting with David Zaslav when I said they're not going to be able to do anything because the costs are too high and they have to cut too much and their debt is too high. I just said I was just a math person, so it doesn't look like they can grow easily. And he called me and said, we should have drinks and talk about this. And I was like, I'm sorry, I'm a math person. It just doesn't work. And you have to cut. There's no growth for you anywhere.

Matt Bellany

Well, they premise that merger on a revenue number that never materialized.

Kara Swisher

Correct.

Matt Bellany

They put it out there that the TV group would generate a significant amount of profit every year. And it just kept going down and down and down to the point where almost immediately they had to revise their aspirations and the whole thing fell apart.

Kara Swisher

That's right. And I was like, I'm sorry, I don't know. Are you a magician? Are you going to start selling drugs? Like, I was like, what? Explain to me where the money's coming from. And this here, it's quantumly, except that they're rich. And you.

Matt Bellany

And even if you're rich, that's the wild card here.

Kara Swisher

Even if you're rich. I wouldn't say Larson's cheap, but Larry Ellison is cheap. Right. Like, ultimately, do you want to throw this money at your son? Right. Essentially, do you want to give him someone who has a questionable, like, record of money making? Right. Not an enormous money. Like, Skydance was not a big money maker. And so that's the question is, how rich are you and how much? To me, speaking of yachts, it's like a big, leaky yacht. I was like, how much do you want to put on the yacht? Like, how much do you want to.

Matt Bellany

We have precedent here. Remember, Larry Ellison funded Annapurna, which was Megan Ellison's film production company, David's sister that was very prolific for a decade and made a ton of Oscar winning movies. You mentioned her by Spike Jonze. That was a Megan Ellison production. And then at some point, Larry said, enough is enough. You've lost so much money. I can't continue to bankroll this. And the place dramatically downsized.

Kara Swisher

Right, right. And so the question is, is he. That was 10. That was Larry Ellison many years ago. Is he willing to do this for his son? To me, Larry Ellison is the fulcrum here for everything. It's like, I'm not spending. I don't want to pay for this muffler. I don't want. And like, the question is, does he really. I don't think he gives a rat's ass about CNN in any way whatsoever.

Matt Bellany

Oh, see, I've heard differently. I've heard that that was the case in the beginning, but that he has come around to the influence of it and cares very much about Israel, for instance, and wants to kind of put the media on the right track. And he's been spending time with President Trump. And I think that both he and David now are more interested not as a business. They know that news is not a great business. But a lot of this merger is premised on the combination of CBS News and CNN and all the people they can fire at those news networks to combine their news gathering operations. And that, I think, is a reason why they may not offer to sell CNN as part of this, even though it might be politically a winner.

Kara Swisher

Interesting. Yeah, I'm rich enough I don't have to. To finish up what happens then? What can Vonta get? If he can't get that, do you think he has a chance of getting that? You say no because Larry likes it.

Matt Bellany

Yeah, I don't think he's gonna be able to get it. I think they want it, but I don't think he's gonna be able to get it. And it becomes complicated because of, you know, it's not a real. It opens a lot of doors that I'm not sure the Democrats even want to open because something overtly political as a concession for a merger. But I do think they can get the movie thing, some kind of commitment in writing. I think that to release 30 movies a year, I think they can get a commitment to buy a certain amount of content or make a certain amount of content in Californ, which, as you know, is a big deal these days with all the runaway productions and that will be something that Bontech could get. You know, I don't know what the specifics of what the other states might want. You know, you know, New Jersey is one of the states considering and they have a big production hub there. Maybe they can get some commitments to film there. So I think it's going to be much more about investment than it is about preventing the loss of jobs. Although maybe they could get some commitment for, you know, only reducing 10, 15% of the workforce per year for five years. Something like that.

Kara Swisher

Yeah, something. So that's where you think it's going?

Matt Bellany

I do. I think that these states don't have the appetite for a two, three year antitrust war and Paramount certainly doesn't have the appetite for that. So there will be some kind of settlement. But again, the leverage point comes not from filing the lawsuit, but from getting an injunction that would prevent this deal from closing.

Kara Swisher

And if they get an injunction, they might be able to get the other stuff too. Exactly, because that would be an enormous win for Bonta. That would send him right to Governor Bill.

Matt Bellany

I don't know about that. He's not even running this time. But maybe in the future.

Kara Swisher

But yeah, you know, have you met him? He's running for governor, just FYI.

Matt Bellany

Right. But not this time, but, you know.

Kara Swisher

No, but it's.

Matt Bellany

Or eight years if, if, if Becerra wins.

Kara Swisher

Yes, that's right. Yeah. Yeah, we'll see. But in any case, he's a, he's a, he's an up and coming politician.

Matt Bellany

Yeah. Listen, if we get President Newsom, maybe he could be Attorney General.

Kara Swisher

Yeah, that's right. Well, I don't think so. Anyway, let's move on. Disney has told the FCC that ABC the View should continue to qualify as a bona fide news program making exempt from federal equal time rules for political candidates. The filing comes as the FCC has been probing whether the View violates those equal time rules. A notable line from the filing, the First Amendment does not permit the government to sit in an editor's chair, yet that is the seat the Commission now proposes to take. ABC launched a campaign, a very aggressive campaign, to encourage reviewers to make their thoughts known to the FCC in June, and the Commission received over 76,000 comments about the case. As you know, I think Brendan Garr is a moron and he's way overstepped here for reasons unknown.

Matt Bellany

Well, reasons unknown.

Kara Swisher

Well, he wants a big political career

Advertisement Voice

and he's back to Trump.

Matt Bellany

He wants Donald Trump to love him.

Kara Swisher

Yes, exactly. It's pathetic in so many ways. But I bet Donald Trump doesn't love him, by the way. So talk about the consequences here for both sides, because I think Brendan Carr has overstepped, especially in his statements, because his statements go way over the line of any FCC chairman I've heard in the many years I've covered that.

Matt Bellany

Yeah. It's interesting here because the. This is all happening with the backdrop of Trump not necessarily being as powerful in the media sphere as he was even a year ago. We're heading into lame duck status. The polling is where it is and it's not. You know, I think that Brendan Carr was a little bit surprised that Disney came back so aggressively.

Kara Swisher

Yes, he was. Yeah.

Matt Bellany

And he's now on Twitter, like, trying to counter this pretty normal strategy. I mean, when there's ever a carriage fight amongst distributor and content provider or any political.

Kara Swisher

Disney's always good at it.

Matt Bellany

Yeah. They go after their fans.

Kara Swisher

The New York one, I loved watching the New York One. That was a real fun one.

Matt Bellany

And shocker. People who watch the View are interested in the View having the freedom to have on any guests that they want.

Podcast Host (Kara Swisher)

Right?

Kara Swisher

Yeah.

Matt Bellany

And if Disney communicates to them to stand up to the government to keep your show that you like as your show, they're going to respond. So I think this was totally predictable. What's the most interesting angle to me is through the lens of the new CEO of Disney, Josh demar.

Kara Swisher

Yes, exactly.

Matt Bellany

He is being aggressive here and he's pushing back on this one. He's pushing back on the dumb Kimmel thing, Jimmy Kimmel thing, where they claim that, you know, they're going after Disney because of their DEI policies, but we all know they were trying to put fear and censor Jimmy Kimmel. And Disney's really fighting back on that. And I don't know that Bob Iger, the previous CEO, would have been as aggressive on this.

Kara Swisher

I think he wanted to be. I think he felt like he was. That the way Jimmy Kimmel went down wasn't exactly what happened. Like, I think he was. He what? He had been supportive of it, but the way it went down, because he didn't say anything. He didn't call reporters. He didn't, you know, he didn't really handle that very well.

Matt Bellany

Well, Iger did an interview with the FT a couple weeks ago, and he said that he didn't like Kimmel's comments about Charlie Kirk and wanted him to apologize, which he had never said before.

Kara Swisher

Yes. But I think he also felt that he had supported Kimmel over the many years. You know what I Mean, and that his. I think he was surprised by the pile on him. And I said to him, well, why were you surprised? People like Jimmy Kimmel. It seemed ridiculous what Carr was doing. I think he felt like he had a long career and people should have given him a little more credit over the time. But talk about why Josh is doing this. I think it's really interesting to be one of your early moves.

Matt Bellany

He's a different person and he has a different view on this. And I think that the people advising him are telling him that they are in the right here. I mean, you mentioned Eric Gardner. He did a whole analysis of this for Buck. Disney has the upper hand here, and I think Brendan Carr knows it. They're just trying to be bullies. And Disney is a really big popular corporation that people have an emotional connection to. So I think that he's playing his hand here. And they know that they ultimately, if this did get litigated, they would come out on top. So why not be more aggressive?

Kara Swisher

Well, you know, it is interesting, the pushback, I find. I think it's. The timing is correct because one of the things that when I was arguing with him during the Kimmel times, a lot of the Disney executives, I was like, he's going down. Trump is. Popularity is only headed one direction at this point. I was like, you all can look like heroes at this moment by just stick. You know, given the whole thing that happened with Stephanopoulos and everything else, which is. I suspect there was probably more problems there to litigate that. In this case, it's a clean shot against an oaf like, who's attached to a very increasingly unpopular president. I was like, I don't know. And people love the view like they do. The fans love it.

Matt Bellany

And here's the thing. When Iger came back to Disney in 2022, one of his big priorities was to depoliticize the brand. The previous CEO, Bob Chapek, had gotten into this big fight in Florida with Ron DeSantis. You had Republic saying, boycott Disney. And that's Disney is an everybody brand.

Kara Swisher

You had white supremacists outside of Disney. I know that was troubling to the executives. You know, they were marching in front of white supremacists, if you recall. People don't remember this, but I do.

Matt Bellany

But Disney is an everybody brand, and Josh d' Amaro is a brand guy. So I understand why they wouldn't want to get into a fight with a Republican president. And if you noticed last week, no other network went harder on the annivers of America than Disney, ABC. They literally did 24 hours of programming.

Kara Swisher

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Matt Bellany

And they got 40 million viewers out of it. But my point is like, they're trying. Disney is trying to walk both sides here publicly. Be. Be very kind of pro America and pro. Pro every political party, but while also now standing up for itself, which it did not do in the Stephanopoulos matter.

Kara Swisher

Right. And it will succeed here. I. I feel Ben and car is a paper tiger.

Matt Bellany

Oh, I think they will absol. Succeed. I don't know that he'll back down completely, but this will eventually go away.

Kara Swisher

And then they will get the news. The news out, Correct?

Matt Bellany

Yes. You mean the news exemption or the equal time exemption? Yeah, I think Disney will win on that.

Kara Swisher

Yeah. It's clearly an interview show. It's so. It's kind of ridiculous on so many levels.

Matt Bellany

Yeah. The annoying thing is that they've kind of been chilling themselves during this whole process and not having political guests on as much.

Kara Swisher

Well, they had Vance on recently. They had Vance on. But yeah, you're right. I think they definitely haven't been know they do better with like, you know, the guy from just, you know, the handsome guy, you know, that's what they do better with.

Matt Bellany

I'm gonna take your word on the programming of the View. I'm not a regular viewer.

Kara Swisher

Oh, it's. I. I was just a guest host on it for two days and I had a ball. It's so much fun and such a great audience. And one of the things that I, you know, there's a lot of declines in watching, but it's a really well done show. It's really. It exactly meets its audience and it's clever and interesting and oddly, you know, on a lot of these. When you're on cable shows, as you know, they're lacking of substance. It feels substantive, actually. It's actually a good talk and so I think that's why it works.

Matt Bellany

Barbara Walters. Genius was onto something.

Kara Swisher

Genius. My legend. If I had to pick anyone who was one of the finest interviews in the land, it would be Barbara Walters.

Matt Bellany

She does not get enough credit for conceiving that show.

Kara Swisher

Yeah, I agree. I agree. And also, by the way, Whoopi Goldberg runs that thing like she's really good at her job. She really is. And really creates a really interesting environment that is unexpected. Anyway, I like being on it. I enjoy it and I hope for the best for them because they really produce a great show. And good for Josh d' Amaro for this being one of his first things, because he's gonna win anyway. Okay, Matt, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, Netflix Sophomore SL. Support for this show comes from BetterHelp. Thankfully, talking about mental health has become much more common, but that doesn't mean seeking help is easy. BetterHelp's 2026 State of Stigma report surveyed 2,000Americans and revealed that 85% of Americans polled believe getting support is wise, yet 74% say society discourages people from doing so. With BetterHelp, you can connect with a licensed therapist from anywhere on your schedule. With more than 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform, having served over million people worldwide. And it works, earning an average live session rating of 4.9 out of 5 based on more than 1.7 million client reviews. BetterHelp does the initial matching work for you so you can focus on your therapy goals. A short questionnaire helps identify your needs and preferences and their 12 plus years of experience in industry leading match fulfillment rate means they typically get it right the first time. If you aren't happy with your match, switch to a different therapist at any time from their tailored recommendations. You don't have to let stigma stand in the way of support. You can start therapy with better help. You can sign up and get 10% off@betterhelp.com pivot that's betterhelp.com pivot Today's show is brought to you by Vanguard. To all the financial advisors listening, let's talk about bonds for a minute. Capturing value in fixed income is not easy. Bond markets are massive, murky. And let's be real, lots of firms throw a couple of flashy funds your way and call it a day. But not Vanguard. Vanguard delivers institutional quality bonds. And institutional quality isn't just a tagline, it's a commitment to helping your clients succeed. That means top tier products across the lineup, including more than 80 bond funds actively managed by a global team of over 200 sector specialists, analysts and traders. Plenty of firms like to spotlight a star portfolio manager, as if one brilliant investor is doing all the heavy lifting. Vanguard takes a different approach. They believe the best active investing ideas shouldn't stay with one person, they should be shared across the entire team. So if you're looking to give your clients consistent results year in and year out, go see the record for yourself@vanguard.com audio. That's vanguard.com audio all investing is subject to risk. Vanguard Marketing Corporation Distributor

Podcast Host (Kara Swisher)

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Kara Swisher

Matt we're back. Netflix is getting into the short form content business. The company announced this week it's partnered with buzzfeed, Conde Nast, Hearst people and various Penske media brands to bring the digital videos to the platform. These videos will range from 3 minute shorts to 20 minute episodes focusing on travel, cooking, F as well as celebrity content, profiles and viral content. All these people have been making these extra what I call shoulder content that you see.

Matt Bellany

Oh I used to do it when I ran Holly to Porter. We had to do the video version.

Kara Swisher

Video version. Conde Nast does actually a pretty good job. Oh, they all do a pretty good job at it. This announcement comes in the wake of a new report that Netflix is struggling to retain fans between the first and second seasons of Top Shows, with some shows shedding 50% of their audience. Engagement is slowing too. The amount of time customers spent watching Netflix last year grew by less than 2%. Talk why they're doing this and just for people. I last yesterday went on Brian Williams new show which is they've also bought a bunch of podcasters. I think the one that's doing really well is the Breakfast Club.

Matt Bellany

That's the one they're talking about. We'll know next week when their engagement report comes out for the first half of the year.

Kara Swisher

Yeah, but I don't think they're high. I don't. I feel like they're not.

Matt Bellany

I have heard internally the numbers are not high, but it's early days. That's what they're saying. They're encouraged by the, the trends.

Kara Swisher

Yeah, but the Breakfast Club, from what I understand, is a real standout. That's what I heard from them. So talk about this whole thing and include what? It's not really podcasting. Their, their te was a TV show that I. It was an interview. It was like, you know, Charlie Rose with a hundred percent less creepy. It was just, I don't know, you know what I mean? It was like that's what, that's what the set looked like.

Matt Bellany

Well, they're calling the video podcast. I mean, there's a distinction there. I think the guilds would love for them to call them talk shows because they have to pay more for them.

Kara Swisher

But fine, it was a talk show.

Matt Bellany

This is all just about Netflix having YouTube envy.

Kara Swisher

Yes, exactly.

Matt Bellany

They look at the engagement report every month from Nielsen. They are getting their butts kicked by YouTube. They know why, you know, so much of the viewing on YouTube is this lower quality, you know, user generated. It's just, it's, it's, it's, it's a different product than Netflix. It's free. Netflix is not free. And they're saying, how can we boost our engagement numbers without going full on user generated and becoming YouTube? But having enough on the platform where people start to consider it the everyday, you just go there to watch video.

Kara Swisher

Yeah, I think it's tough.

Matt Bellany

It's sad to me. Netflix has such a great thing going. They're just so, it's so in their head that they've gotta match YouTube because they see if this trajectory continues, YouTube will eat everything. And then ultimately they'll wake up in five years and they will have to put shows on YouTube because it's so big and so dominant. Right?

Kara Swisher

That is probably true.

Matt Bellany

Because ads, I mean, everybody's been talking about the Netflix stock being down 40% from last year. And part of that is because they went after Warner Brothers and all the investors are like, whoa, wait a second. You guys thought you needed a big studio to compete here? I thought you were the darling of media. But what it really is, I think now is investors are looking for the growth narrative from Netflix. How are they going to continue to grow? And internally, they see the ad ads platform as being a growth engine.

Kara Swisher

It is. It's done rather well.

Matt Bellany

It is, because it's not huge. I mean, Netflix, I mean, Amazon turned on ads for all prime video viewers and it instantly became A gigantic ads business. Netflix did not do that. It's an opt in. You get to pay less money to get ads.

Kara Swisher

It's actually more attractive across the globe. From what I understand, people like free

Matt Bellany

or less money and they're willing to tolerate ads, but. But they need the inventory. They need people on it because they're coming from this position of so many of their subscribers are non ads customers that even though they're growing the ads tier and they're adding a bunch, you know, the percentage of new customers that sign up, most of them do so with. For the ad tier. For the ad tier, they want inventory. And the best way to do it is this lower quality, lower cost, you know, in a sports term, a baseball, you know, a middle reliever, someone that just eats up innings.

Kara Swisher

Right. So you bring all these things and

Matt Bellany

that's what these podcasts are. They're looking, you know, Netflix is also the evening streamer people watch at night, and YouTube is the daytime streamer people watch at work or at home while they're doing laundry or whatever. And they want to compete for those daytime eyeballs.

Kara Swisher

Which of those businesses? What do you think of these three? I don't. I think the three minute shorts are fine. I just don't get it. I don't know why. One of the things, you know, also what they picked, it's not very contra, except for maybe charlamagne. It's not very controversial. Right. It's very, you know, good, but not like, wow, it's like they just signed a cooking show, you know, yesterday. And it's not, it's nothing. That's in the top tiers of podcasters, which is really interesting.

Matt Bellany

Well, Bill Simmons is there. Bill Simmons. Bill's a big sports podcaster.

Kara Swisher

Yeah.

Matt Bellany

And you know, they have a bunch of ringer shows like. And my show Disclosure, my show's a ringer show, but they have like the Rewatchables, which is a big show, and they have some barstool shows and stuff, and they're doing more. And I've heard internally they want to do a lot more. And you know, they're testing it out. This is how Netflix works. They go into an area of content and if it works, they do a ton more. They started doing crime documentaries. They worked. And now they do a fire hose of crime documentaries. They started doing these choose your own adventure shows where the audience would choose and it didn't work work. So they stopped doing it. And this is how they operate. You know, it's just. To me, I wish Netflix would be Netflix and not try to be YouTube. But I understand why they're doing it.

Kara Swisher

Why would, if you are a podcaster or anyone else to do that. Why do that? If you, if you have a good money, just the money they give you.

Matt Bellany

Yeah. Listen, some people like the prestige of being on Netflix. It's, it's a, it's definitely a cooler brand than YouTube where anybody could be on it. And you know, if Netflix is successful here, they will change consumer behavior. Very difficult to do that. But their, their theory here is if we put enough on here and if we have some breakout shows, if you're a Charlamagne fan or whatever you're going to go on and then all of a sudden on your next jog, you don't go to YouTube for the podcast you normally listen to, you go to Netflix and that's how you change consumer base behavior.

Kara Swisher

Yeah, right. Yeah. By the way, just for people to know, the. Netflix has made a deal for video episodes of Vox Media podcasts unexplainable and switched on pop. Which is, is they have a very, it's a, it's a pretty good ad business. But they'll do better on Netflix. I think there's some people are deciding

Matt Bellany

you think they'll do better on Netflix for viewership than on YouTube?

Kara Swisher

I think they'll do better on money.

Matt Bellany

On money, yeah. Because that's what you're sacrificing right now.

Kara Swisher

Yes.

Matt Bellany

You're sacrificing reach on YouTube. YouTube for money from Netflix and then the promise of maybe down the line the engagement numbers catch up.

Kara Swisher

Correct. That's right. You know, something like a pivot, like we wouldn't because we're doing so well on YouTube and other places. But it's just, it's an interesting juxtaposition. A lot of these companies will sort of test out certain of their products on it.

Matt Bellany

I don't think that the engagement on these videos is going to be very high.

Kara Swisher

I agree.

Matt Bellany

Especially at the beginning.

Kara Swisher

I agree.

Matt Bellany

Most of them are low quality shoulder like the Penske videos. Most of them are autoplays that play while you're reading an article.

Kara Swisher

Yeah. But they're sitting over on YouTube doing nothing. So it's fine.

Matt Bellany

Exactly.

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Kara Swisher

So the last thing with Netflix, you know, every, all the investors worried about their deal making. What is their will their Next deal be NBCUniversal? What is, what is. Talk a little bit about the big question.

Matt Bellany

I think I, I think that they are likely to at least explore this because what we learned from the Warner Chase is that they feel they, they don't need, but they would very much benefit from strong intellectual property. It's so difficult to create awareness, to create, you know, fandoms on your own, even though you're as large as Netflix and they've done it successfully many times, don't get me wrong. But having Jurassic park, having the Minions, the Odyssey, having, well, that's a, that's different because that's a filmmaker relationship. But you know what? Chris Nolan won't make movies for Netflix.

Kara Swisher

Right.

Matt Bellany

There is a class of filmmaker that will not make movies for Netflix because they do not give their product a theatrical release meaningfully. So they would get into that business and if it's like what they said with Warner's, they would keep the theatrical business business running, at least at first on its own. So I think that they will at least look, I don't know if they'll make a formal bid. There's a complicating factor because NBC is involved and they definitely do not want to own linear networks. The other aspect of Netflix that is important here is sports. NBC Universal has the second best collection of sports rights, second to espn.

Kara Swisher

They do.

Matt Bellany

They've got Sunday Night Football, which is the, the highest rated show on television. They've got Major League Baseball, they've got golf, they've got a huge new NBA deal that they just did. And they have a subscale streamer in the US Peacock, which only has 47 million subscribers. And they've got all of these sports rights. Netflix, they've got to take a look at this.

Kara Swisher

Yeah. So what else would they take a look at? There's smaller ones like Lionsgate and others I know.

Matt Bellany

And they've had the opportunity to go after those in the past and have, have not. It's got to be special. I, I, I honestly, I don't know

Kara Swisher

who's another buyer for this. Is it going to get bought at all? Is who's another buyer for.

Matt Bellany

Well, that gets to the larger question as to whether NBC Universal is a buyer or a seller here.

Kara Swisher

Seller, right. Yeah.

Matt Bellany

They maintain that they can 100% go to loan and they can be a buyer and they can look at things. The speculation is about perhaps a, a video game company like Take Two. They, they did look at electronic art cards a number of years ago. I think they're either going to do something now or they're going to wait for a while. There's tax implications of doing this spin off. So if it actually happens, I'm skeptical that it will get to the Actual spin off. I think Netflix, if they're going to

Kara Swisher

come in, this is a Warner situation, right?

Matt Bellany

Yeah. If Netflix is going to come in, they're going to do it soon, right?

Kara Swisher

Soon. And they would make a deal for it. Would they get it? Is there another buy?

Matt Bellany

I mean, who knows?

Kara Swisher

Paramount?

Matt Bellany

No. Are you kidding? I joke about that on the town. I don't think they have the appetite for that right now. I think Larry is all tapped out.

Kara Swisher

They can't. They can't afford it. They can't.

Matt Bellany

You know, only. There's only so many Saudi and, you know, Middle east moneymen that you can go to. Yeah, yeah, but there's a. There's a bunch of private equity money out there. You know, there's a. There's Apple sitting there. Apple. Everybody's been speculating in Hollywood for years that Apple would buy a studio. Bob Iger keeps talking about how he wanted to merge Disney with Apple back in the day. You know, Apple has shown no inclination. I talked to Eddie Q about this. He said, no way. But you know what? You never know. There's new leadership at Apple. Maybe he'll say, what are we doing in content? We have all these great shows, but we have very little engagement. And engagement comes from library. Having a hundred years of movies and television shows to keep your audience on the platform 100%.

Kara Swisher

And Disney?

Matt Bellany

I don't think so. Do you think that, do you think. Do you think NBC Universal is going to be the first thing Josh tomorrow does? I think it's going to be in the AI or gaming or something like that. It's not going to be a traditional merger. And they would have to sell one of the broadcast networks or get the rules changed.

Kara Swisher

Yeah, or sell them both.

Matt Bellany

I don't think they'd sell them both. I mean, they've had that opportunity. They've doubled, tripled down on keeping that stuff. They are integrating it all. And the broadcast TV business is still a business. Cable is not, but broadcast still is.

Kara Swisher

Yep, it absolutely is. Anyway, really interesting. Next up, Meta has released an AI image generator called Muse Image, which the company's calling the creative partner that knows your world. I can't believe these people write these things. The generator comes with a feature, lets users create AI images based on people's Instagram photos. And any adult with a public Instagram account was automatically opted in. Kara Swisher has opted out now, just so you know.

Matt Bellany

You know, I saw your post on Threads and I tried to do that last night and I couldn't find the button to do that.

Kara Swisher

I will show you. I will send you a step by step. The company also previewed an AI video generator which will be coming available in the next month. What is these people? Are they just constant information thieves? They just continually do this?

Matt Bellany

Listen, it's a ask forgiveness, not permission strategy. It's been the case from the very beginning in Silicon Valley and it takes the Hollywood people to step up. The talent agency CAA put out a pretty good statement last night. They said no one's image, name and likeness, voice or creative work should be used by a third party, including AI models, without clear, documented consent. They're telling them essentially what the industry says about Sora when OpenAI launched it. It's like, don't make this opt out. Make it opt in.

Kara Swisher

Right, exactly. They hate opt in.

Matt Bellany

I know. Because nobody does it.

Kara Swisher

They've hated opt in since aol. They hate opt in. They hate it.

Matt Bellany

I get it. Listen, it's a much less convenient business to have to ask permission.

Kara Swisher

That's correct.

Matt Bellany

But that's kind of how it works when you have rights like copyright and name, image, likeness rights, they don't care.

Kara Swisher

As Walt Mossberg famously said, they're rapacious information thieves and they continue with that quality.

Matt Bellany

It's not just information, though. This is like, you know, literally, unless he opts out, they could take a Tom Cruise photo that he posts of himself and suck it into their model and create a video based on Tom Cruise.

Kara Swisher

That's correct. That is. It's like, it's nuts. And of course Tom Cruise is good for the platform, being on it and putting all this marketing stuff. It's a win, win situation for them and Tom Cruise and instead they kick him in the teeth.

Matt Bellany

But they know that they're so big now that Tom Cruise can't market his movies without the them. That's the problem here. It's the problem with all of these new innovations is that Meta looks at it, says, oh, we will just clone this and use our massive distribution to put that person out of business. Or we buy them, right?

Kara Swisher

Yeah, yeah. Buy or build. That's how they. That's how they think they buy.

Matt Bellany

They buy.

Kara Swisher

I don't think this is a great move. And I think they'll roll it back. That's my feeling. They, I think they know they're on thin. I see it with people.

Matt Bellany

We'll see how the studios react this next week. You know, they haven't actually launched the video component yet.

Kara Swisher

Right, right. But you can turn it off. I recommend everyone turn it off until we know more. All right. And I'll tell you how to do it, Matt. All right, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about the Sam Altman's movie Fate and a little bit about the Odyssey.

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Matt Bellany

I'm stand up comedian John Marco Cerese. And I'm actor penis Matt Russell Daniels. The downside is our podcast where we bring on guests to talk about how miserable their lives are because, let's face it, things are not getting better. Every episode, we talk about what's wrong with our lives. Our guests lives the world, but in a fun way. Bottom line is you're gonna walk away feeling better about your life. We've had so many cool guests. Caleb Huron. Busy Phillips, Stavros Halkias, Laverne K. Cox, Hassan Piker. Alana Glazer. I promise you're gonna have a good time. Now on the Vox Media podcast network. This is the Downside.

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Kara Swisher

Matt. We're back with more headlines. The Sam Altman focused movie Artificial has found a new home at an indie studio Neon. After Amazon gave it the boot. Amazon walked away from the project after striking a major partnership with OpenAI. The $40 million film stars Andrew Garfield as Sam Altman and recounts the chaotic weekend in 2023 when he was fired and was reinstated as OpenAI's CEO. Plans to release the film later this year and is expected to position it as an awards contender. You know, very well regarded filmmaker made it. Talk about that. And then just secondly, a big movie is obviously coming out. Or you mentioned Chris Nolan, his latest film, the Odyssey, which could be the biggest movie of the summer. Maybe the year tickets went on sale. Crashing AMC's app. People are desperate to see this. Fandango says first day sales were 10 times higher than Nolan's last film, Oppenheimer. Early reactions have been raves, despite a backlash online. It's a fake.

Matt Bellany

Oh, ridiculous.

Kara Swisher

Downvoting the movie's trailers and calling the casting of some of the actors. It's ridiculous. It's a right wing lunacy. One of the biggest critics, of course, is Elon Musk, who's been attacking the movie and director Nolan for months. I haven't seen the movie. I'm gonna see it Monday, I think.

Matt Bellany

Yeah, I'm going Monday as well.

Kara Swisher

It looks astonishing. You know, talk about. I mean, I think they beat the backlash back. I don't think any.

Matt Bellany

That doesn't matter. That's just noise.

Kara Swisher

Yeah, it doesn't matter. So talk about these two movies, the Sam Altman focus movie and, and this, this other one. I think it'll do just fine. I think Neon is a good place for it to go.

Matt Bellany

Listen, this one, I don't know if you and Scott give a Wuss of the year award, but Mike Hopkins at Amazon is an early contender.

Kara Swisher

All right, well, you can have one. You have your own podcast.

Matt Bellany

I know. I do. Trust me. We've. I've gone on and on about Wuss of the year.

Kara Swisher

We stick with Brandon Carr as a moron. That's the people we focus on. But you can go for Mike Hopkins. But go ahead.

Matt Bellany

So listen, Amazon developed this movie, hired Luca Guadagnino, who did call me by your name, and challengers, well, regard filmmaker to direct this movie. They went through all the motions. The only thing that has changed from when they greenlit this movie last year until now is that they now have a $50 billion relationship with OpenAI.

Kara Swisher

Right.

Matt Bellany

And it's so obvious that they're not even denying it.

Kara Swisher

Well, no, but when you go around, like I've, I, you know, when you go around to these companies, like, we're not touching that, you know, if it's an Elon Musk property, they do this all the time.

Matt Bellany

They do, but this, the difference here, here is that Amazon committed to this major filmmaker and all of this talent. And Amazon wants to be both. They want to serve the masters in Seattle and be a tech platform that is looking at the, you know, the future of AI and all the bets they're making there. But they also want to be able to do real Hollywood movies like Project Hail Mary. That requires relationships with talent. The first call that Mike Hopkins had to make make on this was to Brian Lord, the head of CAA and the most powerful talent agency that has a lot of talent in this movie. And tell him, this movie by your prominent filmmaker is getting dumped by this studio. What do you think Brian Lord is going to do the next time they have a hot piece of material? Not take it to Mike Hopkins.

Kara Swisher

Right. So what happens here? I mean, I have read the script. I don't particularly like the movie. I think there's a lot of nonsense in it, like making certain people heroes who were. I think everybody, everybody's a mess in this situation. No one looks good. But to make Ilya a hero, questionable. Make Geoff Hinton a partier. I was like, what? Like, you know, there's a lot of stuff I didn't like in the script when I read it and I got it years ago, I think. But he's a great filmmaker. I bet it's interesting. It's sort of like the Social Network. It's not really what happened, but it's not un what happened.

Matt Bellany

It's very much like that. And the difference here is that the stakes are much higher because we're talking about these guys who could potentially end the world, right? That's correct, from what I understand. I also read an early draft of this script. The tone of it is pretty dark and it makes you feel bad. 1, 1 Potential buyer who saw it and didn't buy the movie said it's the feel bad movie of the year. But it sort of doesn't matter whether this movie is good or bad. There is a social contract in Hollywood where if you commit to a filmmaker and you commit to talent, you're in this together. And here it's Amazon, big tech company finally showing its face and saying, we are big tech company and we will bow down and serve our master if we think this is going to potentially even maybe hurt our overall business. And that's a. There's a chilling effect there.

Kara Swisher

Yeah. And then they buy the Melania movie. They look like idiots.

Matt Bellany

I know. And you know, listen, the interesting thing I reported on the date, and according to my reporting, Amazon is giving this movie away to Neon. They are not paying a license Fee that all that they did was they committed to spend $15 million to market it and release it in theaters, which is what the filmmaker wanted because he wanted a big theatrical release. They're going to do an awards campaign. If the reviews are good.

Kara Swisher

It's like the Trump movie. What was the Trump movie that got it?

Matt Bellany

The Apprentice. It's very similar. To this day, the Apprentice. Apprentice does not have a streaming deal.

Kara Swisher

Oh, interesting.

Matt Bellany

None of these big streamers bought the Apprentice. And that movie did not do very much business in theaters, but it did pretty big business on premium video on demand. And it got two major Oscar nominations for the actors.

Kara Swisher

You know what? It was a good movie. It was a good film. This probably will be a good film. We'll see.

Matt Bellany

I haven't seen it, so there's mixed reactions from the screenings, but good actors involved and, you know, big talent.

Kara Swisher

This. Was this a good move by Amazon or just stupid?

Matt Bellany

Well, it depends. It depends whether you're in LA or Seattle.

Kara Swisher

Right.

Matt Bellany

In Seattle. You know, Mike Hobby is probably going to get a promotion because he managed this. He managed to avoid this problem and get it sold to a distributor that frankly, is probably going to do a better job with a movie like this than Amazon would have. They just lost the same filmmaker. Did the Julia Roberts movie, the MeToo movie, after the Hunt.

Kara Swisher

Yeah, that didn't do well.

Matt Bellany

And that movie cost $70 million and did almost business. So they just had a major flop with him. Maybe Neon will be able to market this movie. The Neon did Anora, which ended up

Kara Swisher

getting best Picture, big hit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I thought it was the perfect film for it.

Matt Bellany

In Seattle. I think Mike Hopkins gets props for this in la. I think they take a big. A big credibility hit.

Kara Swisher

You putts. Anyway, and Odyssey, I think it's going to enormous hit. Like.

Matt Bellany

Oh, big hit, but not the biggest movie of the year. I mean, we still got Spider man coming out and Avengers. Like. Yeah, those will likely be much bigger. I think Toy Story will probably. Toy Story 5 would probably end up being bigger than the Odyssey, but the win is if they can get this movie to eight, nine, a billion. That would be a big win for this movie.

Kara Swisher

For this movie. And, and, and, and then it'll have a huge life.

Matt Bellany

Yeah, we think it's the biggest event of the year. But we're old people who love history and love Chris Nolan.

Kara Swisher

I don't know. My kids are interested in this movie.

Matt Bellany

Okay, that's good.

Kara Swisher

That was. Well, they all, of course, were completely interested in Obsession and backrooms. My Son knew everything about Obsession and backrooms.

Matt Bellany

Those two movies are the story of the year in Hollywood.

Kara Swisher

They really are.

Matt Bellany

The fact that two tiny movies for Gen Z audiences can get to 3,400 million dollars, it's such good news for the business.

Kara Swisher

See, I'm not surprised because it had like, it's sort of like heated. Reiberman's like, what a surprise. I'm like, it was an enormous book hit among those people who like romantic fantasies. Like it was already had an inbuilt audience.

Matt Bellany

Yes, but as much as the media talked about heated rivalry, it was never that big of a mainstream hit. Obsession cost less than a million dollars to make that.

Kara Swisher

Agreed. But I'm saying all the kids knew about this stuff. Everyone. And they had followed it.

Matt Bellany

Really, Cara, we have not followed up because I remember coming on your show during the depths of the pandemic where you, you were saying the movie business theaters are over.

Kara Swisher

I know I did. It was. Yeah, you're right.

Matt Bellany

And young people don't care. And now every study we see says Gen Z likes going to movies.

Kara Swisher

Here's an I'm gonna make another prediction. I think there's a massive move away from social media and online life and to like that same son is going to church all the time. That same son is going out more. You know what I mean? Like so. And these were kids who just wouldn't be seen in a theater. Now the slightly older one doesn't go to the theater, but he wants to see the Odyssey for sure in the theater. Cause IMAX and everything else.

Matt Bellany

And Chris Nolan is the brand. He's probably not going because it's based on a book that he had to read in high school.

Kara Swisher

Yes. No, no, no, no. He definitely. But what I'm saying is there has been a move away. I think that you're going to see massive declines in social media usage and everything else among young people. They want to have real life encounters.

Matt Bellany

It's just my 10 year old is the same way. He'll do the iPad, but he so much prefers playing with his friends and being outside and going to baseball games or movies or whatever. Whatever.

Kara Swisher

Yeah, there's a shift. There's a real. There's a real perceptible. I'm taking these abs off my knees. Not everybody, but to me I feel like all of us want to go out.

Podcast Host (Kara Swisher)

Right.

Kara Swisher

And there's actually good movies to go out too. That's the thing. And that's the issue. Whether it's backrooms and Obsession for the Youngs or Odyssey for the olds. I mean it's a good movie.

Matt Bellany

Do you think in 20, 30 years we're going to look back on this era like we look back on the Mad Men era of everybody smoking all the time?

Kara Swisher

Yes, I do, I do. Because I do think it's people will incorporate it. And I think to me young people are so much smarter about usage, online usage than I think the real problem is 35 to 54 people. Like to me that's the real problematic group of people. But I think you're right, they just made some movies. I don't know if they'll stay going to movies unless they have stuff that speaks to them.

Podcast Host (Kara Swisher)

Right.

Kara Swisher

That actually speaks to them.

Matt Bellany

Well, that is what Hollywood is very much doing right now. Try to show shift the intellectual property paradigm to match this younger audience. Superhero movies are increasingly for older people and they're looking for IP like Minecraft. There's probably going to be a Roblox game, Super Mario. These properties that are just for younger people and feels, they feel ownership over them.

Kara Swisher

Absolutely. And I think that's fine. That's absolutely fine. And if it's a good movie, everyone like, look, I don't think anyone thought devilish proditude was going to make a billion dollars.

Matt Bellany

I mean millennial nostalgia.

Kara Swisher

Yes, but it was also a good movie and it was fun and.

Matt Bellany

Oh, you're just saying that cause you

Kara Swisher

were in it also. I was in it and I deserve an Oscar. But that's another.

Matt Bellany

I stood up when I saw you. I stood up and applauded.

Kara Swisher

My favorite thing was someone sent me a note. There was a screening in San Francisco. This bunch of gay guys rented the movie theater inside it and then didn't know I was in it. And they shrieked because I'm a well known gay in San Francisco. But it was very funny. It was fun. But I didn't think it was gonna be that big, honestly. But it was.

Matt Bellany

I didn't either do a box office draft with Lucas Shaw and neither of us.

Kara Swisher

No, I didn't.

Matt Bellany

Sorry, I didn't pick it. He picked it and he got the benefit actually.

Kara Swisher

I thought when I saw it I was like this is a lot of fucking fun. And it's really good and really fun and really actually more depth. Actually it was good.

Matt Bellany

I picked the Michael Jackson movie though. And that's going to get to a billion dollars. So I'm pretty happy.

Kara Swisher

That's also. Yeah, there's some really promising movies. There's a lot of not ones that you're never going to see again too. All right, Matt, one more quick break. We'll be back for prediction predictions. Okay, Matt, let's hear a prediction.

Matt Bellany

All right, so I have a fun one and a serious one. Okay, I'll do the serious one first.

Kara Swisher

Okay.

Matt Bellany

I think Netflix will launch a free tier within a year. Oh, this is where it's to going. Going all of this low value podcast, social video, YouTube style content. They are going to separate it or have it available on the paid tier as well. But they're going to put it into this free tier that will serve as a top of funnel for the regular Netflix and hopefully juice their advertising business via engagement.

Kara Swisher

Right. Okay. A little bit of tubi.

Podcast Host (Kara Swisher)

Go ahead.

Matt Bellany

Yeah, a little bit of tubi and to compete with those and, and, and you know, query whether it will harm the brand or cause people that pay for Netflix to switch to a non paying situation. But it's getting to the point where Netflix is showing us their cards. They are so obsessed with YouTube, they will launch a real YouTube competitor in a free service and they could put some of this old show content that they haven't licensed out anywhere and is not doing much on the platform. They can put that on the free tier and have it be like a Tubi or a Pluto TV where it serves as a funnel for the other services.

Kara Swisher

That's a great idea. They could do deals. Yeah, that's an interesting, that's an interesting. You know, it's interesting. I saw pictures of Neil Moen from YouTube and Ted Walking into the Sun Valley thing, which was interesting. I was like, ooh, I'd like to see them chitty chat. Like I'd like to be in front of them, seeing them. By the way, that thing also looks bad this year for some reason. Like, I never liked it, never get invited because I'm a pain in the ass. But it looks particularly, particularly tone deaf this year for some reason. But maybe you don't think so.

Matt Bellany

I'm interested in the fashion.

Kara Swisher

Oh, okay. The outfits. Lauren. Lauren Sanchez.

Matt Bellany

Yeah. The vests and the David Zaslav denim on denim look.

Kara Swisher

Denim. He's still, that guy. Works the lesbian look so beautifully.

Matt Bellany

I have to say I'm not gonna go there. But it is certainly. It's like his, his sort of souped up cowboy look. I'm sure both those denim jackets cost thousands of dollars.

Kara Swisher

I've told him this to his face. I'm like, you look like a lesbian. I used to date back in the 80s. And anyway.

Matt Bellany

All right, speaking of the gays, do you want my fun prediction?

Kara Swisher

Sure. Yes. Please.

Matt Bellany

I think the new album from Madonna will get a Album of the Year Grammy nomination.

Kara Swisher

I'm with you on that.

Matt Bellany

Which would be her first since 1998. Confessions 2 getting unbelievable reviews. I listen to it. You know, dance music's not my thing, but for what it is, it's very good. And I think that there's a narrative around her. She's performing at the World cup finale. And I think that the buzz around Madonna is she's a survivor and will score that Album of the Year nomination from the Grand Prix.

Kara Swisher

Yeah, I agree. Let Madonna be Madonna. She hasn't, like, stooped. She doesn't do nostalgia. She could easily do a lot of stuff. She did a little bit on that last tour that I went to. I went to the concert.

Matt Bellany

Oh, is it a good show?

Kara Swisher

No, it was not. And it made me sad. And then now I love this album.

Matt Bellany

Oh, she doesn't dance like she usually.

Kara Swisher

She's too slow. I'm like, don't dance. It's like, who's that guy right now? Who's dancing? Oh, God. There's an old rocker that needs to.

Matt Bellany

Oh, there was a video of Barry

Kara Swisher

Manilow, all of them. I was like, sit down. You need to sit down. I love you so much, and you

Matt Bellany

need to sit down. But in this case, Billy Joel, Elton John, they sit down.

Kara Swisher

They sit down. But Madonna's album is quite good. It's really. It's not just. And it's not nostalgia. It's interesting. Like, it's an interesting. And she refuses to be anything but herself. And I think people kind of like that. She is the OG in many ways.

Matt Bellany

She should be a pivot guest. I bet she has opinions on it, on the. The mergers and acquisitions.

Kara Swisher

I. Oh, I bet she does. She's as sharp as a fucking tech. That's one thing about that.

Matt Bellany

She is. She went after her label. Remember, she had this whole period where she took a big deal with Live Nation, and she left her longtime record label and was sort of floundering. And she criticized Guy Osiri. She's. She's got opinions.

Kara Swisher

She walked so Taylor Swift could run. Let's just. You know what I mean? Like, in a lot of ways, I'm going to ask you for one more prediction. How you. You made a joke about this, which made me laugh hysterically. But the Taylor Swift wedding, she goes. She couldn't poss preparing a movie about it, could she? Could she? And then you said, could she? Is she? Will she.

Matt Bellany

Okay, so a couple things there. I don't think it will happen now after I have seen, you know, talked to a lot of people who were there, and I've seen how it played out. She didn't get releases from all the big stars that were there. Now, you could argue that maybe they, they put up signs there that said, like, this could be filmed, so maybe they could get away with that. But do you think they're going to put out a special on Disney where Tom Cruise and all of these athletes

Kara Swisher

and are dancing on the stage?

Matt Bellany

Yeah, they're sort of private moments. There were no phones or anything there. It would be so tacky to do that. I talked to someone who was there who was saying that was the most interesting thing about the wedding is seeing all these people like JLO and Tom Cruise and all these people that have had handlers around them for literally decades be forced to socialize at a party with other famous people without their teams or their phones or anything.

Kara Swisher

They must have loved it. They must have loved it.

Matt Bellany

Or they don't know how to interact with people. Someone said JLO was very awkward, so

Kara Swisher

she's not making a movie. Because I would watch the hell out of that.

Matt Bellany

Oh, yeah, everyone would watch. It's not a matter of whether it would be popular. It's a matter of whether they were, are willing to, to take a, A, a withdrawal from the credibility bank to do that because it's so tacky. Even if they made a donation of the money they got to a charity, it's still pretty tacky. Like, no think has any celebrity done

Kara Swisher

that since Kim Kardashian feels very Elizabeth Taylor. I bet that. I don't know.

Matt Bellany

Kim Kardashian did it with Kris Humphries and it was a big E special, but I don't know why not? Maybe I have more faith in Taylor than you do. I. I just think it's so tacky that they won't do it.

Kara Swisher

Yeah, okay. All right. I'm asking you. That's why I want to know. I'm just telling you I'd watch the hell out of it, and I wouldn't consider it tacky.

Matt Bellany

And all the people who went there, just the level of people would find it to be, I think, a bit of a betrayal.

Kara Swisher

Although at the same time, they all managed to get pictures themselves. Like, here I am going to the thing. Oh, by the way, a lot of

Matt Bellany

them did, but a lot of them didn't. A lot of the executives didn't. And you know, it's the people who already have big followings on social media

Kara Swisher

who leveraged It, she'll, she'll release a few short videos and tasteful.

Matt Bellany

That I agree with. The question is, will she do it with the brand or will she do it on her own channels?

Kara Swisher

On her own.

Matt Bellany

She's bigger than any media property. Everyone's like, oh, she'll give the photos to Vogue.

Kara Swisher

No.

Matt Bellany

Why the hell does she need Vogue?

Kara Swisher

Why does she need Vogue? She could do it.

Matt Bellany

She does media stuff when it builds the brand. She did the time person of the year. Yeah, she, she will do stuff with media when it suits her. But for this one, just put it

Kara Swisher

on your socials, put it on your show. She doesn't need anybody. She doesn't. She'll make a big album out of it in a news tour and that'll be that.

Matt Bellany

I know people are already joking about the. What the divorce album is going to be.

Kara Swisher

Oh, stop it. It's not happening. That's, you know. Although the guy who. Jack Antonoff is getting a divorce from Margaret Qualley.

Matt Bellany

They're separated. Kara, let's not jump to conclusions.

Kara Swisher

All right, I'll try not to, but no one saw. Anyway, this one, I think, is for life. I do. I have to believe in them. I don't. I, I really don't even like straight people that much, so. But I, I believe in this wedding. I don't know why.

Matt Bellany

I, I, I am a Taylor Swift fan and I enjoy Travis Kelce as a football player and a media personality.

Kara Swisher

I agree.

Matt Bellany

I hope this works out.

Kara Swisher

Nothing but the. I do. I believe in them. I hate.

Matt Bellany

I mean, honestly, even if it doesn't work out, I hope it gives the world a Taylor Swift.

Kara Swisher

No, I feel like it's going to. I have a feeling it's going to. I don't know. Anyway, we want to. I, I know I'm stupid. We want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com pivot submit a question for the show or call 85551 pivot. Okay, that's the show. Thanks for listening to Pivot and be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back next week. Matt, thank you so much. I really enjoy talking to you. You're really such a pleasure.

Matt Bellany

I appreciate you having me on. I am very much looking forward to learning where Scott is right now and

Kara Swisher

tell people what everyone. They can watch and read you. Obviously, I would subscribe. I don't like everyone at Puck, as you know, but I love you. I love Eric. I love Cohen. You know, so many good things.

Matt Bellany

Yeah, you can subscribe to Puck News and you can listen to the Town on all the platforms, YouTube, Spotify, Apple, everywhere.

Kara Swisher

It's terrific. You do a terrific job. You do a terrific job at it. And it's a really great podcast. Anyway, I really appreciate it. Thank you for being here. And Scott, we'll be back next week for wherever he is. Let me read us out. Today's show was produced by Larry Naiman, Zoe Marcus, Taylor Griffin and Todd Wiseman. Ernie Enderdutt engineered this episode. Rich Shibley edited the video. Thanks also to Kate Gallagher and Bradley Sylvester. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcast. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from Vox Media. We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and.