Jon Favreau

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Jon Lovett

Drilling is optional.

Jon Favreau

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Jon Lovett

Didn't know that. That's great.

Jon Favreau

And she, you know, installation was quick and easy. The system was up and running in no time. Running before her, you know. We've partnered with SimpliSafe to offer an exclusive discount to our listeners. Right now you can get 50% off your new system by visiting simplisafe.com crooked that's half off. @simplisafe.com crooked there's no safe like SimpliSafe. Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.

Jon Lovett

I'm Jon Lovett.

Tommy Vietor

Tommy Vitor.

Jon Favreau

On today's show, we'll talk about the war with Iran which claimed more American lives over the weekend and wounded dozens which the Pentagon is trying to hide. We'll also talk about ICE being back in the headlines after killing people in Texas and Maine. We'll talk about how the administration is responding and what we know about how Trump's deportation agenda is playing with voters. Latino voters in particular. We also have a bunch of news from the world of Democratic primary campaigns. Former Maine Senate President Troy Jackson is all but certain to be the Democratic nominee to take on Susan Collins. In main, there's more chaos in the Wisconsin governor's race. And AOC and Bernie rallied for Abdul El Sayed in Michigan as his primary against Haley Stevens heats up. But let's start with some big news from the weekend. Spain's 10 win over Argentina in the World cup final in the Meadowlands, capping off an incredible tournament. No one is sadder about it ending than Donald Trump, who wasn't about to let a return to full on war with Iran stop him from inserting himself into the closing ceremony.

Jon Lovett

The President of the United States on the field. Now. So they can. They can edit him out of that

Tommy Vietor

Australian broadcaster at the end there.

Jon Favreau

Did you guys see the caption of the picture in the Guardian?

Tommy Vietor

No.

Jon Favreau

Where Infantino is with Trump and it's just the two of them. And the caption is, gianni Infantino carefully explains to Donald Trump that he is not part of the Spanish national team.

Tommy Vietor

That's about right.

Jon Lovett

The energy of accidentally realizing you're in the money shot of a beach wedding, that is what it reminded me of to do it. Get the fuck out of the way.

Jon Favreau

Did you see the team that the players were doing the Trump dance and therefore really appreciating his involvement because Trump did this to one of them and looking confused, he just was like, yeah,

Tommy Vietor

I'm going to milk a cow back to you. My guess is they're just happy because they won the World cup and this is the best day of their life. That would be my guess as to why they're happy, like, for sure.

Jon Lovett

But if a monkey did a gesture to me at the zoo, I do it back. It wouldn't be a show of support for his politics.

Jon Favreau

I might not throw my poo back at him, but.

Jon Lovett

Right.

Tommy Vietor

It's like, yeah, it's like, it's cool to go to the game. I'd go if I could go. It's cool to present the trophy, but, like, get out of the dude. And he also did this at the FIFA World cup final in, like, 2025. And, like, you can see Infantino trying to get him to leave the stage and he just won't do it. He just basks in the glory of the cheering. Like, he genuinely believes it's for him. I would feel like imposter syndrome and run off there.

Jon Lovett

I think he also believes he's wanted there. Like. Like, I'm Donald Trump. Everybody loves when I'm part of their stuff.

Jon Favreau

I. I'd feel imposter syndrome if I was the president of the United States and the US one, right? I would still say something and be like, extra proud, but I wouldn't get in the fucking picture.

Tommy Vietor

And especially with Spain, like, the NATO summit a couple of weeks ago, he said, quote, I don't want anything to do with Spain. They're hopeless, bad people.

Jon Favreau

Bad people.

Tommy Vietor

Because they, like, didn't support the war with Iran and didn't want us to use their bases.

Jon Favreau

Did you see the USA Today did a piece on the Trump Curse. They're calling it the Trump Curse.

Jon Lovett

So awesome.

Jon Favreau

So I didn't know about all of These, but. So Trump said before the World cup final he didn't pick a side, but he said it's hard to bet against Messi. Argentina loses. Trump intervenes to get the red card reversed. US Loses to Belgium. Trump shows up at the NBA Finals. It's the only game the knicks lose in 2025. Trump goes to the Washington Commanders game. They lose to the Lions 44 22. That same year, he goes to the Ryder cup, the U.S. loses. They're calling it the Trump curse.

Tommy Vietor

It's so funny. The, the other thing about that Commander's game is so he goes to Commander's game, the Commanders get stomped by the Lions. And then at that same game, alliance receiver named Amon Ross St. Brown did the Trump dance. And then the Lions lose five of eight games and miss the playoffs. It's even better.

Jon Favreau

Yeah.

Jon Lovett

So I think it's like basically there's, there's three possibilities. Okay. One is that it's luck. The other is that he brings a terrible energy everywhere he goes. Right. That he. And that his.

Jon Favreau

That's documented.

Jon Lovett

Right? For sure. Like I think. And that, that, that like corrupts anyone who's seen rooting for you. Can't help as someone playing knowing that Trump is on your side, allowed to infect you with the kind of negativity and failure that surrounds him. I do think it's worth considering the third possibility, which is much like Odysseus discovering the Cyclops on his way home due to his failure to observe like morality in the conflict in Troy, Trump is being punished everywhere he goes.

Jon Favreau

Why are we all catching strays?

Jon Lovett

Yeah, well, that's, that's. Take it up with Zeus, my friend.

Jon Favreau

We the, we are just as men. We are the ones being sacrificed.

Jon Lovett

I'm not saying it's a. The punishment is. It's not clean. You know.

Tommy Vietor

Can I tell you my, my favorite Trump sports story from over the weekend is there's a golfer named Bryson DeChambeau. Did you guys come across this?

Jon Favreau

Are you tweeting about this?

Tommy Vietor

He had a meltdown at the Open Championship. You got a penalty for like I think just stepping in tall grass. That would have gotten the way of his swing. And he got a two stroke penalty. So he throws a hissy.

Jon Lovett

Deserved.

Tommy Vietor

He totally deserves. He throws a hissy fit and he sucks. He's annoying. Anyway, he throws his hissy fit, he threatens to not play the next day, basically quit the tournament and take his ball and go home. He takes all these rules, officials, makes them visit the site and then he goes back in the midst of it, he threatens to call Trump and tattle on the mean rules officials if they don't give him his way.

Jon Lovett

He also shut down the whole tournament, too, right? They all had to wait. All worse, and they all had to wait for him to be done with his fit. And even the other players who were watching were like, yeah, come on, man.

Tommy Vietor

Yeah.

Jon Favreau

I mean, this is what Trump has created. You know, it's like everyone knows if they're friends with Trump or they suck up to Trump, they can just tattle and get what they want or at least try to do that.

Jon Lovett

Everybody's calling the manager, right? I want a table.

Jon Favreau

You get pulled over speeding, you know,

Jon Lovett

I know Trump, but, sir, you don't have a reservation. I know the owner.

Tommy Vietor

The German broadcast of the World cup final. So they cut to Infantino and Trump in the box. They show them getting presented the trophy, and the announcers go, well, that's a violation of all the rules. Those two are made for each other. Fascinated by power and by themselves, too.

Jon Favreau

Good stuff.

Tommy Vietor

Hit good stuff.

Jon Lovett

Tough. Tough to hear from Germans.

Tommy Vietor

The cool. Like, the cool part of the story, right? That sort of suggests the Spanish team would not like Trump's politics. Is one of the players, a guy named Nico Williams, his mom and dad walked 2000 miles from Ghana to. To Spain. She was pregnant with his older brother at the time, like, across the Sahara Desert, barefoot. Managed to get into this tiny bit of Spanish territory to become citizens, and then he's playing on the national team. That's probably why he wouldn't like Trump's immigration.

Jon Favreau

Yeah. Wouldn't like his politics. He wouldn't be possible with Trump's politics. So, unfortunately, Trump trying to make the World cup about Trump did steal the spotlight from the tournament's real hero. Let's play it.

Jon Lovett

We put on the largest sporting event in the history of the world, and everybody, including FIFA in the White House, looks the to the FBI, to our interagency partners, to dhs, to state locals, to everybody to figure out how to get six and a half million people into the US and into these games without a single major security incident. We have lived up to that measure because you guys have put in the time. It's truly, truly incredible. We just can't say enough about the preparation and the execution.

Jon Favreau

It's been flawless. He's in every shot of I was good. I thought this was kind of like, you know, thanking, like, all the law enforcement officials who pulled this off. It's like, whatever. It's fine. Every single shot of that Video is Kash Patel.

Jon Lovett

Imagine if we had a crook at all hands to celebrate a year of making great content. And through it, we played a montage of just our headshots.

Tommy Vietor

No one would be surprised.

Jon Lovett

Yeah. And when I.

Tommy Vietor

Hey, I gotta laugh.

Jon Favreau

Lean with the chin.

Tommy Vietor

I gotta say. So. I didn't watch that video before so we could see it live. My reaction to that video is, who is this for? You know what I mean? Like, who's getting jacked up to watch Cash Patel? Is it for Donald Trump? Because he wants you wearing a suit, not like the weird thin hoodie T shirt thing.

Jon Favreau

I think it's probably for Trump. It's also. He's just in super defensive mode now. Cash Patel. Because he thinks everyone's a guy. Because that's fair. Right? But it's like, you know, you think I'm a drunk and you think I fucked this up, and I tweet in the middle of investigations just because I try to, you know, before. Before. So, like, I think he's just like, I'm going to. We got one. We did one. Okay. And so I'm going to brag about it now.

Jon Lovett

It's interesting, though, because it's like, let's just take it at face value. Let's just not even forget the aesthetics of it, which are ridiculous. Kashmir. In what ways are you responsible for the World cup going? Well, just walk me through some of them.

Jon Favreau

Oh, he's saying he's responsible for the World cup not. Not going badly.

Jon Lovett

But that requires. Are you. But that. That requires people wanting it to go badly, that he's stymied. Right? Like, where's the arrests? Right? Like, what are you talking about?

Jon Favreau

I'm sure he's feeling like there was, you know, a planned attack at the ufc fight, White House, and. And they foiled that. And so he's. He's probably thinking himself, like, I didn't get enough credit. I need to put out videos from now on when there's no attacks, not

Jon Lovett

enough, not enough likes and faves for that foiled plot.

Tommy Vietor

It's just amazing. Like, here's me waving, getting out of my G5 private jet. Man of the people, Cash Patel. You also. The one thing we know that got

Jon Favreau

to think is interagency partners.

Jon Lovett

Yeah.

Tommy Vietor

Cash Patel has been working hard on trying to arrest New York Times reporters who reported on Trump's Air Force One. Did you see today that the FBI or the DOJ has subpoenaed records not only from these journalists, but from their spouses and one reporter's mother?

Jon Favreau

Yes.

Tommy Vietor

Got the mother's phone records.

Jon Favreau

I wonder if they'll bring that up to Trump. Any of the reporters in the White House Correspondents association when he's on the dais at the Correspondents Dinner this weekend.

Jon Lovett

Maybe the mentalist can. Maybe Dr. Oz can or whatever his name is. Those man. Whatever his name is.

Jon Favreau

It's a night where we're putting politics aside and the fact that you're snooping on our report on my mom's. Yeah, that's. We're just going to put it aside for the night to just sort of honor be in the same room.

Tommy Vietor

You think Oz could guess the mom? Yeah, it's pretty good.

Jon Favreau

Like.

Jon Lovett

Yeah, well, yeah. Why don't they just ask him for the fucking leader?

Jon Favreau

I forgot it's fucking O's.

Jon Lovett

Yeah, I know. I learned that. I learned that. I learned that from a magician. Yeah, I really did. But, but yeah, like we ask him, he'll know. You should just, you do that mentalize.

Tommy Vietor

That mentalist it.

Jon Favreau

Anyway, enough of that. Trump, who, who just last month told reporters he was skipping his son's wedding because of, quote, a thing called Iran, did not feel the same way about attending the World cup. Probably because according to the White House, Iran is no longer much of a threat.

Jon Lovett

They have been literally obliterated. Never in the history of warfare has an enemy suffered such clear and devastating large scale losses in a matter of weeks. Iran has no air defenses. Iran has no air force. Iran has no navy. Operation Epic Fury was a historic and overwhelming victory on the battlefield.

Jon Favreau

The United States has all the cards. The straits are now open. The Iranian military is now destroyed. We've won.

Jon Lovett

Let me tell you, we've won. You know, you never like to say too early, you won, we won. We won. The best in the first hour. It was over.

Jon Favreau

Well, apparently someone forgot to tell the Iranians because they've been attacking US forces all over the Middle east for the last nine days straight. They've killed at least three Americans and likely a fourth. That that soldier is still officially considered missing. The Iranian attacks in Jordan have also reportedly injured dozens of American troops and damaged helicopters. News that the Pentagon has just decided not to report, according to the New York Times. And if you're wondering how it's possible that Iran can still pull off these kinds of attacks, you're not alone. Here's Fox News. Maria Bartiromo.

Jon Lovett

I don't understand how it's possible that

Tommy Vietor

Iran has the capabilities to fight this

Jon Lovett

way and continue to try to lash out at Gulf countries and US Military bases because The US has obliterated Iran's military. And the President continues to reiterate that

Jon Favreau

reading these talking points, and for some reason, they're not true.

Jon Lovett

I love the idea of her. Hold on a second. And we just. The camera follows her out down the stairs to another room with a whiteboard, and she starts doing the math on the whiteboard, trying to, like, figure out how the thing is, like, I don't.

Tommy Vietor

This doesn't.

Jon Lovett

I don't think they're. I don't think they're telling the truth.

Jon Favreau

The president keeps reiterating. The president would not iterate, let alone reiterate, if something not true like this. He would never say that.

Jon Lovett

Maybe I just haven't been asking my questions loudly enough.

Jon Favreau

Trump doesn't have a good answer, or really any answer to Maria Bartiromo's question. He threatened revenge on Truth Social, and CENTCOM announced more strikes in retaliation, but this is all he said after the World cup, when reporters asked about the Americans who were killed.

Jon Lovett

We feel very badly, but, you know, those great people, those great patriots were out there fighting that Iran cannot have a nuclear weapon. This is a far bigger job that we're doing. We were doing a little job stopping them from having a certain capability. Now we're just ending it.

Jon Favreau

What, Tommy, what'd you make of Trump's answer there? Just a little confusing. And just the general developments over the weekend.

Tommy Vietor

Well, clearly he's pulling from a deep well of empathy at the top there. But, but on the bigger job part, it's like there's. I think there's two ways to interpret it. One is like his factory setting is stuck on bullshit, right? So he's like, now we're reopening the Strait, and that's an even bigger message. He's just does hyperbole with all things. But maybe it is the beginning of a bigger mission that could include, like, a permanent escort mission with the Navy or taking territory on the coast to try to, like, permanently claim the Strait of Hormuz. I don't think we know. I don't think he knows yet probably what he wants to do. My assumption has been that Trump does not want to restart the war because he doesn't want to raise gas prices right now in advance of the midterms. But the weekend's events show how dangerous the status quo is and that Iran is learning. The Journal had a piece about how they've adapted their missiles to move in the sort of, like, terminal part of the flight where they're coming down so they can evade our Air defenses. And we still have tens of thousands of service members in the Middle east that seem like they're not well defended at all. And so, like, either way, like, the reporting, it makes it sound like he wants to not go back to a full scale war. But as you noted, Iran has been hitting targets all over the Middle east and the Pentagon is putting out statements that they've hit targets in Iran for the last 10 nights in a row. So that's not a war.

Jon Lovett

Right. Like, what is it? We are. The war is restarted. It's whether he want. Whether we. Whether Trump wants to go so far as to acknowledge that the ceasefire that has failed, has failed, which he's sort of has.

Jon Favreau

I mean, he's like, the MOU is done. Who cares?

Jon Lovett

But then.

Jon Favreau

And they've told Congress they're officially back in war.

Jon Lovett

I guess the other distinction would be there would be some explanation for what the strategy is behind what they're hitting, other than as tit for tat.

Tommy Vietor

Degrading.

Jon Lovett

Yeah. Degrading capabilities generally.

Jon Favreau

Yeah. This is. I mean, Trump very well may not want a return to full scale war for all the reasons you outlined. But this is the problem with escalation. Like, it's unpredictable and they strike and then we have to strike back and then they strike back again. And so suddenly the space for diplomacy becomes very, very small and they just keep going after each other.

Jon Lovett

Also, like, Americans are dying. They're a group of, like he's at the World Cup. They're a group of families that are having the worst experience of their lives. Their lives are being ripped apart. Because Trump doesn't want the war to escalate because of his political reasons. This is just a blip. He's very sorry. It's very bad. It's so glib. But you know that if what he wanted to do was escalate, right? If Americans had been killed and he was aiming to start the war, or he would just declare it the greatest violence against the United States. Right. Like the American service member in harm way being hurt by this are purely just sort of pawns either to be like, either to downplay or lie about what's happening to them if it doesn't suit your story about how much we're decimating the military. Or he can use it as an argument for why we need to escalate if he so chooses. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. We're finally talking about mental health openly, but actually reaching out for help is incredibly difficult. New data from BetterHelp confirms why Better Help's 2026 State of Stigma report surveyed 2,000Americans and revealed that 85% of Americans believe getting support is wise, yet 74% say society discourages people from doing so. There's a person I know they very clearly need a lot of therapy and instead they already lost a race for governor of South Carolina and now may run a snap election for senator instead of getting the help he or she needs. Best of luck with over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform, Having served over 6 million people globally and it works with an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 for a live session based on over 1.7 million client reviews. BetterHelp therapists work according to a strict code of conduct and are fully licensed in the US BetterHelp does the initial matching work for you so you can focus on your therapy goals.

Tommy Vietor

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Jon Favreau

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Jon Lovett

We control the skies.

Jon Favreau

We control the skies. The strait is open. And also for nothing. The stated objectives, like, they haven't done. They haven't achieved anything. They didn't destroy the regime. They didn't get the. They didn't make any progress on their nuclear program. They didn't destroy their ballistic missile programs. They didn't destroy the proxies.

Tommy Vietor

Yeah, I think we're in a situation where it feels frustrating and unsatisfying because they don't care about getting caught in those lies by the mainstream press the way every other president in history has. But when you look at the polling like, this is the most unpopular war in modern American history, and it's going to get worse as gas prices tick back up. And there's just no end game here. Like, the Iranians want to control the Strait of Hormuz. Trump can't let that happen. How do you sort that out?

Jon Favreau

And you want to talk about the Houthis now? And they announced there's a blockade of Saudi Arabia.

Tommy Vietor

Yeah. So the Houthis. So back in 2015, the Saudis launched this disastrous war on the Houthi rebels in Yemen. Hundreds of thousands of people died because of it, mostly because of famine. In 2022, they announced a ceasefire and then some peace talks. So Ben and I were talking about last week, this kind of fragile ceasefire kind of erupted because the Saudis bombed the Sana' A airport. I think they were trying to stop an IRGC plane from landing back in Yemen that had been at the Supreme Leader's funeral in Yemen. We were kind of like, oh, that's ominous. Like, why are we kicking back up this conflict? And so today on Monday, the Houthis announced that they're going to embargo Saudi ships in the Red Sea via the Bab El Mandeb Strait. So that's the choke point out of the Red Sea to the east where a lot of oil and gas flows and So I don't know how this would work or how they would implement it, but if you have the Strait of Hormuz closed and then access to the Red Sea shut off, that chokes off like another 5% of the world's oil and reform petroleum products that pass through that strait. And so the Saudis, the way the Saudis been getting around the Strait of Hormuz being shut is they have a pipeline that goes west and south and they've been pumping oil and gas out and getting it out through the Red Sea. If they can no longer do that, it's a huge reduction in supply. At the same time, you have the Russians, Russian oil refinery capacity has been cut in half due to the Ukrainian strikes. You have all the oil reserves depleted

Jon Favreau

because of the war, because we all

Tommy Vietor

just spent it down to try to keep costs low. And then China had been limiting imports during the conflict. Now they're ramping them back up, so you could really see a serious supply shock in price increase. So one to watch. I mean, maybe the Houthis are not actually going to go through with this and they'll try to like calm things down with the Saudis. But this is kind of like the nightmare scenario in terms of energy prices.

Jon Favreau

And oil went over $90 a barrel briefly over the weekend. It's now in the 80s, but gas is up to $4 a gallon again. And this is right at the beginning of this new phase of the war.

Jon Lovett

And the Houthis don't have to completely control this waterway to create a bunch of fear and force ships to either delay, go around, raise the cost of insurance, what have you. Right? And, you know, having Iran and Iranian proxies in charge of these two choke points through a quarter or more of the the world's oil goes through is really sort of once again showing how much more powerful Iran has gotten because of this conflict. Even the language the Houthis used was just basically, well, this is Trump is blockade on a blockade in the Strait of Hormuz. We're going to do a blockade on a blockade on this side too. That's just how it goes.

Jon Favreau

Meanwhile, Republican, the Republican Congress has done absolutely nothing to rein him in on this. You have a few voted for like a war powers resolution and that's about it. And now, you know, they have a week before they all go on break until mid September. And the House is trying to pass the NDAA also the supplemental extra, like billions and billions and billions of dollars more, which is just absolutely fucking crazy nuts.

Tommy Vietor

Billions of dollars.

Jon Favreau

So ICE is back in the news for all the wrong reasons. After agents shot and killed one unarmed man in Houston, Texas, and another in Biddeford, Maine. Both men were fathers and husbands who had been living and working in America for years. Both were driving at the time, and both were victims of mistaken identity by ice. After the shooting in Maine, DHS Secretary Mark Wayne Mullen ordered a temporary pause on vehicle stops by ICE officers, a pause that Susan Collins quickly took credit for, which was then overturned by Trump in less than 48 hours after an intense right wing backlash to Mullen. Despite the fact that ICE has arrested a record number of people since Mullen's been confirmed, even hitting Stephen Miller's 2000 arrest per day quota a few times this month. This is, of course, thanks to the $170 billion that Susan Collins and her fellow Republicans funneled to ICE, which seems to be giving badges and guns to anyone who wants them to. The ex wife of the agent who killed the person in Maine told the AP that because her ex husband has a history of violent behavior and serious psychiatric issues, when he told her ICE had hired him, quote, she thought he was having a mental health episode and didn't believe him.

Tommy Vietor

Jesus.

Jon Favreau

This is the guy who killed the person in Maine. And now, according to the New York Times, federal agents recently received a written notice that the FBI would, quote, no longer investigate confrontations with immigration agents. Supposed to be handled now internally through dhs. This is a report that's been denied by both the Department of Justice and the Department of Homeland Security. So I feel like after Minnesota and Noem's firing, we were all worried that nothing would actually get better. It would just get quieter. Sure enough, even Trump's approval on immigration has sort of crept back up, though it's still slightly underwater. What do you make of the administration response to the killings in Texas and in May?

Jon Lovett

So, yeah, that Homan was going to be some kind of a step up from Bovino and from Kristi Noem. The fear was they would continue doing what they were doing, but not as ostentatious. I do think, like, the fact that they determined that these sieges upon cities were counterproductive politically was a win that continued. But that doesn't mean they haven't been more competently and quietly aggressive. And they have continued to put people like this out into the field. We already know they reduced the amount of time these people are trained, they lowered their standards, they've been desperate to recruit. So this is a direct result not just of what the Trump administration is doing, but What Congress has done to fund and give them the resources to rapidly hire people who have no business using a gun, let alone using a gun as law enforcement, as part of the federal government. You read about this guy's background before he's in ice. Like, this is just a troubled guy, like a terrible head injury. He like was doing doordash, he was doing correction.

Jon Favreau

Like he's just all violent towards his own kids. I thought that the, the blowback to Mullen was very telling too, on the right. Because it kind of goes to the point that like he's not running the department really. This is just like this is Miller's policies. And he tries to do something on his own to pause. And then Trump immediately just backs up.

Tommy Vietor

Yeah, I wonder if Mullen got a call from Susan Collins directly because they're Senate colleagues and they probably know each other. But yeah, I mean this ICE officer in Maine, he shot and killed a man in front of his three year old daughter. You know, it's fucking evil. And I think shows that the policy has not changed much, but the PR strategy has. I mean, Nome and Bavino, like you said, like they were being pressured to make 3,000 arrests a day and they would, to do that, they would have border patrol invade a city like an army and occupy it in the flashiest way possible. That included flying Blackhawk helicopters over Chicago or having like little social media people filming all the people stuff they were doing and then releasing it because they

Jon Lovett

were proud of it.

Tommy Vietor

And Mullen is still trying to hit 2,000 arrests a day, but the arrests are spread out all over the country and he's less thirsty for press attention

Jon Favreau

than Noem was, although probably doesn't want it.

Tommy Vietor

Low bar. DHS is still lying about all these incidents. They're de facto covering up for all these officers, but they're doing it in a slightly less gratuitous way. They're not. It's not like Minnesota where they're saying Renee Good and Alex Preddy were domestic terrorists or that, you know, Preddy was trying to massacre police. Right. That was the intention. To massacre police was like the line afterwards. And so Trump though is still making it clear that he doesn't care if innocent people are killed. He wants the dangerous practices like the vehicle stop arrest to continue if it means more deportations. So it is like they've definitely put a less flashy shine on their policies, but it is still very much the same dangerous, abusive practice.

Jon Lovett

And that you can't give in to the libs. Right? Like you can't if something terrible happens and there's a call from your enemies to be restraint, to show any kind of restraint, you can't give in to that because that is what led us here. Right. Like that's the problem. We have to prove we're really tough.

Jon Favreau

Well, the Post had a good story on this about the sort of the blowback to Mullen. And you know, it came from all the usual sort of right wing media, online spaces, but also the Heritage foundation and there's people in the Heritage foundation making the point that Tommy did, which is they're all saying like, oh, Collins probably called Mullen because they're Senate colleagues. And this is the problem with having someone at DHS from the Senate because you're trying to please all those people who are too moderate and we have to just, just put foot on the gas for the deportation agenda and it doesn't matter. We're just going to keep going. Stephen Miller doesn't care if it's unpopular. He doesn't care if people get killed. He doesn't care if what the detention center conditions are. He doesn't care what. He just wants to do it. He just wants to get it done and thinks that he is and the only thing that's going to stop him is tremendous public pressure like the kind we saw after Minneapolis or Democrats winning Congress and being able to reign Trump in that way with the power of the purse.

Jon Lovett

Well, look, Trump's immigration ratings were in the drop precipitously around the time of the killings in Minnesota. They have slowly but surely ticked back up. They're not above 50. They're still, you know, they're not as high as they once were. But the, when the attention comes off of it, it kind of reverts to a mean and the baked in assumption. I think on their part is people know that even if he goes too far, he is strong on this issue at a symbol of how he is strong as a president. Right. Like I think that is the deeper reason he can justify politically continuing to do this.

Jon Favreau

Yeah. And I think that because it's not in the news and people don't aren't seeing the excesses of the deportation project, Trump's deportation project. It's like they want, most people want border security and unfortunately most people want like approve of the deportations in general. They just think that it's, you know, when they don't see the excesses in the news, they think, well, they're deporting all the right people. Right. They're deporting the violent criminals and that's that. And they forget about what happened in Minnesota and stuff like that. And you've gotta, that's why you just gotta keep reminding people and why people, you know, coming out in Maine and Texas to protest this is important to keep it in the news.

Jon Lovett

Yeah. There's also just a, like a fundamental problem in when there is a mass shooting and 12 people are killed in one place. That is national news. If there are 12 heinous murders committed by people who should not have access to guns, that does not get the same coverage because they are distributed even though it is the same level of, of, of harm. And so yes, they are, they are not wrong. Right. That just people do not pay as much attention when these like sort of injustices are distributed. And I know there's no good answer for that other than continuing to talk about it. Pod tame America is brought to you by hims. ED is more common than. Guys talk about the good news weird.

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Jon Favreau

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I had filet with gorgonzola, mashed potatoes and asparagus.

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Tommy Vietor

I mean, I think the takeaways are Trump's approval is down. Many Latinos now regret voting for Trump, but Democratic approval is not necessarily up. So we need to treat Latino voters like they're swing voters, which they are. They have been. We're so way behind where we were with Latino voters in 2018. Carlos had a good message, which was basically like, don't scold people for voting for Trump. You just say you were lied to. Trump promised you a bunch of stuff he didn't deliver. You're welcome back in the Democratic Party. I think that sounds exactly right. But I do think it's like the, the thing you hear from a lot of activist groups is that Democrats only show up in the last month of an election. It's all GOTV messaging, turnout messaging. It's not persuasion messaging. It's not early enough. I think that's like a lesson we need to learn this time.

Jon Favreau

Yeah, yeah.

Jon Lovett

Immigration specifically, I just think you can, like, reflect what is true and also comes across in the polling. You know, Democrats, I think, really did have their. Spent for a long time, had their heads in the sand around the difference between believing in immigration and opposing a lawless border. Right. Like, there was just a difference and there was kind of a, I think, like, treating people like they were pretty stupid about it, but now I don't think it's very hard to say. Like, we believe in controlling the border, but they're terrorizing communities, they're terrorizing families. You can enforce our immigration laws in a way that is not cruel and capricious and violent and chaotic. And in the same way he has failed to, because of his incompetence and chaos, failed to address the reason so many people gave him a chance. Cost of living is up, gas is up, everything is up. He's focused on all the wrong things, on immigration. We have seen so much chaos and so much violence, and none of it was necessary, he was elected to do, to bring down the cost of living and bring some order to places where people felt as though like there wasn't enforcement at the border. Now it's time to have responsible adults who are going to make good policy and do it in a way that reflects what people want out of their government without being so incompetent and cruel.

Jon Favreau

Yeah, I thought the polling was interesting in that, you know, Latino voters, like most voters, they care about cost of living more than anything else. So that's like the lead message. But, you know, sometimes it's framed as a choice between, like, do we talk about that or do we talk about what ICE is doing? And, you know, Carlos and Ecky say that, like, Democrats should lift up the stories of the people who've been killed by ice, but then makes the point not just their wrongful deaths, but also the stories of their families and contributions to their communities. The data shows that among Latinos who believe Trump's gone too far in immigration, most say because of the impact his policies have had on families, children, US Citizens, and legal immigrants. So there is, you know, the stories in the way that we would tell the stories anyway, is what Democrats should be doing. Speaking of the midterms, one Republican who should be especially vulnerable on her unqualified support for ICE is Susan Collins, who is now likely to face Democrat Troy Jackson in November. Jackson is Maine's former state Senate president, who just lost the 2026 primary for governor. He's also a fifth generation logger from about as far north and rural as Maine gets. It's on the border of where he's. Where Troy Jackson's from. Jackson won't officially be nominated to replace Graham Platner until the party convention this weekend, but he ran the table at the county level meetings where delegates were chosen to the point where all of his major competitors have now dropped out.

Jon Lovett

So I pretend to be a dermatologist and I gave him a sort of head to toe mole check and he's clear, so no moles and nothing else. So I just, I had a, you know, put on the stethoscope, that whole thing, you know, he kept on his underwear. I'm not a fucking maniac.

Jon Favreau

Early thoughts on Troy Jackson. Who's always been our favorite in this race, we always thought would be the.

Tommy Vietor

I have no thoughts on Troy Jackson. I'm spending a little more time looking. I have thoughts on huge credit to the Maine Democratic Party for throwing together a process this quickly. That must be hard. Like, if Jackson gets it, hopefully that will go a long way towards bringing along the platinum voters, who are probably pretty pissed off, and the volunteers who were left hanging when he withdrew. We're still in a tough spot. He's, you know, the Platner left us a mess. We're behind in fundraising. We're behind in name id. Hopefully now this can become a referendum on Donald Trump and how voting for Susan Collins is a vote for the Donald Trump agenda.

Jon Favreau

But, yeah, it seems like he's already moving towards that, talking all about Susan Collins, and it's what could have been a very contentious couple weeks here.

Tommy Vietor

Yeah, they figured it out.

Jon Favreau

They figured it out. Like, credit to the main Democratic Party. Credit to all of Troy Jackson's challengers, too, who, like, instead of hanging into the convention, have all dropped out and are all supporting him now, which is great, just so people know who Troy Jackson is. So he was state Senate president. He was reelected last in 2022 in one of the reddest. Reddest parts of Maine. I looked up there in the 1st District. The state Senate district registration there is 36% Republican, 19% Democrat, 45% no party preference. Okay, so that is independent. That is an achievement. Winning. Winning that district. Internal polls. There's only been a few internal polls with him and Collins. They have him tied or slightly ahead. So it's too early for that. He's got pretty much all of Graham Platner's positions. He doesn't. Maybe.

Tommy Vietor

Well, some of his older positions, sort

Jon Lovett

of just more recent political ones, I'd say probably yes.

Jon Favreau

Political positions. Political positions. Maybe. Maybe not as. Maybe not quite as charismatic as, you know, he's a little. He's a little gruffer.

Jon Lovett

You know what?

Tommy Vietor

We'll see.

Jon Favreau

He came in third for governor and used to be very conservative on abortion and gay rights and over the years has now gets like 100% ratings from abortion in gay rights groups. So he's sort of changed over time.

Tommy Vietor

I realize our process is not ideal, but in South Carolina, Republicans are like, hey, Lindsey Graham, you're dead. What if your sister just takes over?

Jon Lovett

Yeah.

Tommy Vietor

Hey, that's weird.

Jon Lovett

Hey, we're in the market for Lindsey Graham in a wig.

Tommy Vietor

So weird. They're just handing a sentence to Lindsey Graham's Sister.

Jon Favreau

Yeah and there so there hasn't been a lot of like you didn't give us a process why did you give us this guy? I think for Troy Jackson it's like it's name id right. Like people don't.

Tommy Vietor

They don't know.

Jon Favreau

I don't. I think even people in Maine. Right. Like you're the state Senate. Does anyone know the state senate president? Anyone know the.

Tommy Vietor

Nobody.

Jon Favreau

I don't even know who the head of the legislature is here and assembly is in California.

Tommy Vietor

Do you guys going to be very complicated. I'm not doing pop quizzes today just so folks know. It's not just that Lindsey Graham Lindgraham's sister is is finishing out the seat. She's announcing she's going to run for it.

Jon Lovett

I know and. And I just want to be clear. We don't know. You know maybe she has great and interest like she works with the blind. I don't know got a. There's a chance. Let's just. Let's just be cool. We've love. We always thought Lindsey Graham's sister was a reasonable person who could have a conversation with. Let's give her a chance before she. If you discover that she makes Lauren Boebert look like Hakeem Jeffries.

Jon Favreau

Unfortunately, Nancy Mace has dropped out of that race. Won't be running now.

Jon Lovett

It's so funny.

Jon Favreau

She said she'll continue to shitpost. She literally said that.

Tommy Vietor

That's great.

Jon Lovett

She posted just when I thought I was out they pulled me back in from Godfather Part 3. Never like the least requested person ever being like, fine, I'll do it.

Tommy Vietor

They being yourself pulled you back in the voices.

Jon Favreau

Turns out Maine isn't the only speed bump on the road to a blue wave. The Wisconsin gubernatorial primary just got a little jolt over the weekend. When Lt. Gov. Sarah Rodriguez ended her campaign after revealing serious financial mismanagement by her campaign manager, she was one of the leading candidates in the polls. Her dropping out set off a panic among the state's more moderate and establishment Democrats who are worried that Francesca Hong, the DSA backed candidate who's leading in the polls, won't be able to win in November. So even though former Lieutenant governor and Senate candidate Mandela Barnes is still close to Hong in the polls, Wisconsin Democrats convinced Milwaukee County Executive David Crowley, who'd ended his own campaign a week earlier, to get back in the race. And then Governor Tony Evers, who had been staying out of the primary, endorsed Crowley. Seems like they got everything under control up there in Wisconsin, huh?

Jon Lovett

I keyed into this. Cuz when I saw the Sarah Rodriguez press conference.

Tommy Vietor

The video. Yeah.

Jon Lovett

And I was like watching this video and I really hadn't been paying close attention to this primary, to be honest. Honest. But then I watched the video and just someone at the point of being like, here is when I found out we were being robbed. Here is when I found out there was not enough money here and there. Then I realized there was a problem over here. And I was like, oh, boy. I mean, I guess it's good to get ahead of this, but I don't know how you can win a campaign for governor when you're just getting. When your finances are so fucked.

Tommy Vietor

I still feel like I'm missing something. In the Sarah Rodriguez story. The campaign manager double counted donations so they had less money than expected. Then that same staffer puts out a press release that's like, we're doing $1 million ad buy. The candidate is like, hey, where's our ads? I don't ever see them on tv. Turns out the ad buy was fake because again, they didn't have the money. They put out their filing and she has like 35 grand on hand.

Jon Favreau

Yeah.

Tommy Vietor

So that's obviously bad, but do you have to drop out for that? Well, I mean, you couldn't have stuck it out.

Jon Lovett

I just think if you're running to be the chief something.

Jon Favreau

Something else.

Tommy Vietor

I get the argument, like, you know, incompetent, you can't manage your own campaign, can't manage your own finance. But it's like, I don't know. The primary is August 11th.

Jon Lovett

Like, I feel like there must be more we're going to learn about what happened. And by the way, like, when I say Rob, I have no idea. It just sounded like someone at least insinuating that money was going out the door illicitly.

Jon Favreau

Anyway, she's gone Mayor memory be a little thing. This is an important race. We don't want a Republican as governor in Wisconsin in 2028 when there will be a presidential election to certify. And so really important that we place replace Tony Evans with the Democrat. I'm kind of confused why they didn't rally around Mandela Barnes. So Mandela Barnes, who? We've known Mandela for a while. He also ran in 2022 for Senate. He came like 26,000 votes shy of winning in a year where it was a 2022 midterms. It was a more Republican leaning year. And he's close to Hong in all the polls. He was probably like ahead of Rodriguez in some polls. Several polls show him ahead of the Republican candidate, Representative Tom Tiffany, and Crowley, who. I don't know much about David Crowley, but when he suspended his campaign, he never got more than 5% of the vote. I mean, in any of the polls, he never hit beyond 5%. And then somehow Evers went out and endorsed him and not Barnes.

Jon Lovett

I don't understand it either. Other than he lost before, they could use that same playbook again. If he lost to Ron Johnson, he's going to lose again. It's almost confusing.

Jon Favreau

Like, 20% of primary voters have already cast their ballots. It's almost impossible that David Crowley is going to win this. What him getting back into the race may do is assure that Hong is going to win.

Tommy Vietor

Yeah. I mean, all the whispering in those articles is they think Mandela Barnes is basically just as progressive as Hong and therefore will have all the same problems. I think they're all kind of whispering about bad polls. I have no idea if that's true, but that's when, like, Politico reports on this and stuff. Yeah. The strategy is baffling.

Jon Favreau

Yeah. But it's so funny because it's one thing to think Barnes is also too progressive, just like Hong. And so Crowley would be the most electable candidate. Like, I get that argument as a. I might not agree with it, but I get it as a legitimate argument. But then saying, okay, so we'll put him in the primary with two weeks left, he never hit 5%, and somehow he'll vault ahead of the other two candidates.

Tommy Vietor

They're just hoping that the Tony Evers endorsement will do it, it seems. Well, it also, yeah.

Jon Lovett

Even with, like, there has been a lot of great polling, but also the pollings had them all pretty low, too. So, like, maybe they're hoping. There's just a lot of people that have made up their minds. They're coming late. Yeah. The other also just to say, like, Barnes was lieutenant governor of the state. He's not like, coming from nowhere. Right.

Jon Favreau

Like, I'll just say this, like, if Hong wins the primary and loses the general, it is not. This is not like, let's blame dsa. This is the establishment decided to put in someone else, potentially split the vote with Barnes. And that's where we ended up, where we did.

Jon Lovett

It's not to mention, after Sarah Rodriguez

Tommy Vietor

had to end her campaign outcoming, I think everyone in Wisconsin was just like, jesus Christ, what do we do?

Jon Favreau

Right.

Tommy Vietor

Scrambling.

Jon Favreau

Right. But that's what I'm saying. The Crowley thing is the weird part. It's not the, like, no one could have seen the Sarah Rodriguez thing coming, but the Crowley thing is just a it's a weird thing to do.

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All right, let's end with Michigan, where there's a a very chill, congenial Senate primary between former Cricket host Abdul El Said, who the three of us are supporting, and Congresswoman Haley Stevens, who we're hoping to have on the show as soon as she can make it work. The polling is relatively sparse and a bit all over the place in a race where the biggest issue dividing the candidates is Israel. Abdul wants to end all US Aid to Israel. Stevens does not, and has the support of aipac, who's spending heavily in this race. Abdul is also in favor of more progressive policies like abolishing ICE and Medicare for all, which is one reason he's been endorsed by AOC and Bernie Sanders, who are in the state this weekend campaigning with him. Here's a clip from one of the

Jon Lovett

they want us to think that these

Tommy Vietor

forces are too powerful for us to overcome, that this is just how things are. There's $50 million in this race because they're expecting a return.

Jon Lovett

It's an investment. They've taken to calling me dangerous. Now. I don't know why you would call somebody who looks like me me with a name like mine dangerous. If you're A corporation wanting to buy a politician with their pack. I'm dangerous. If you're a PAC and want to send our money abroad, you damn well better believe I'm dangerous. If you're somebody who wants government to work for you, I'm not dangerous. I might just be the one person running for U.S. senate. Senate who actually wants to serve you.

Jon Favreau

Thoughts on one of the last and maybe most contentious Democratic primary of the year?

Tommy Vietor

I mean, I hate that this has gotten jammed into the Graham Platner discourse frame, at least on social media, because, like, Abdul and Graham Platner are absolutely nothing alike. And anyone suggesting otherwise is trying to smear Abdul in a really disgusting way. And just clock that when you read these tweets and judge them accordingly. Some of the issues in the race are nationalized. Like, there is frustration at the establishment and Chuck Schumer for picking candidates. That's part of the race. There's Gaza, there's APAC spending. But if you watch the debates or watch them on the stump, it is very local. It's a lot of auto industry talk. There's a lot of anger at shitty utility companies. Everyone in the race made a video about a bridge from Detroit to Canada that Trump was shutting down. They're talking about healthcare premiums. So, look, I'm supporting Abdul because I consider him a friend. I think he's really smart. I think he's good on the stump. Trump, he's taken principled positions on stuff I really care about. I think he'd be a good senator. It's like, it's no deeper than that. I'm not a Haley Stevens hater in any way, shape or form. If she wins the primary, like, I will wholeheartedly support her no matter who wins. This is going to be a really tough race. Like, Mike Rogers is a good, strong Republican opponent. We barely beat him last time. So I think what's most important is whatever happens come August 5th, like, everybody's got to put down the little Twitter knives, stop nursing your little grudges, making this about some bigger things, some factional intra party thing, and let's come together and win this race. And we gotta do a little faster than people have been doing it up in Maine, because there's a lot of lingering bullshit happening.

Jon Lovett

You know, there's debate about Medicare for all, which is largely a symbolic debate. Even if you support Medicare for all, the next Democratic Congress, if we're so lucky to have a Democratic Congress, we'll have Trump as president. Like, there's no hope of passing Medicare for All but it is a symbol of a willingness to like go bigger, go against the establishment, be willing to say something that may not be as popular broadly but shows that you're willing to fight. Now, you know what AOC says there like, oh, They're buying the sea. It's pretty clear like Haley Stevens has said she will support military aid and aid to Israel. Abdul will not. Right. They're investing to get behind a candidate who will support continuing to give military aid to Israel. Other then but like that is a symbol of what happens if either one of them is in the Senate. And put the like big kind of sort of ideological distinctions between them aside. Haley Stevens is a reliable Democratic vote. She doesn't have a particularly strong ideological point of view. You go to her website, it's a lot of nuts and bolts. Bring money home to Michigan policies. She supports a public option. She supports reforming ice. She's just a reliable Democratic vote. Abdul is someone who will push on the party from the left. That is what he will do in the Senate. Now I think that's a good thing. I think it is good to have like people that have a strong point of view and want the Democratic Party to stand for something clear. Right. But in the end, either way, like neither one of them is going to be able to enact any kind of specific agenda. It's a question of what you want in a. What do you believe a Democratic Senate should look like, which why it becomes a proxy between Bernie and Schumer and all the rest.

Jon Favreau

I do think with a Senate race, because you're there for six years, ideally this person is there for a Democratic president and a Democratic Congress and then hopefully the next Democratic president does make a move to expand healthcare. Who knows how far they'll be able to go. But ideally, and so you know, they will get to do, they will get to set the agenda. Hopefully in some ways. But I think but to your point, I mean this always happens with primaries, right? Which is because the candidates are generally similar on their policy platforms. You try to find differences that then become magnified in the heat of a race that then make it seem like it is this Manichean struggle between good and evil for the supporters on either side. And look, I think in this one you're right, Israel is a clear dividing line. That is where their policy, I mean she supports aid to Israel with no conditions whatsoever and he wants to cut it off. And even some of the other races where AIPAC is played in, I think the difference hasn't been so clear or

Jon Lovett

as she's on the right edge of a dwindling minority of Democrats who are taking that position even in the Senate. I mean, the majority of, the vast majority of Democratic senators are closer to Abdul's position now than they are to Haley's Stevens. Right.

Jon Favreau

And so then the other thing you would do is you'd make it about electability. And I do think it's been hard to make this race about electability grounded in a lot of firm data because look at the polls that we've had, have been from not really high quality pollsters. There's been a lot of internal polling from both sides. We don't have like a New York Times Sienna poll or a lot of really good polling. And so, and in the polling that we have have, you know, at the beginning of the race, it seemed like Stevens was performed slightly better against Mike Rogers than Abdul. Now it seems like Abdul has like a point or two on her or they're tied. So it's really hard to make an electability argument. So therefore now you're just fighting over.

Tommy Vietor

What they're really fighting about is like they're, they're hand waving at the policy shit, but they're like, his name's Abdul Al Sayed. He's a Muslim guy. That is what is happening. It is. I mean, I'm not saying Haley Stevens specifically is saying that, but a lot of of Abdul's opponents are. When they say electability, that is what they mean. And that is what has gotten a

Jon Favreau

little ugly well into your earlier point. And now they're doing the. Well, he's got some of the same consultants and so Graham Platner wasn't vetted and we don't want other. And it's like Abdul has been vetted because he ran for governor of Michigan and that's why his name ID is so high in the first place. And he's been like, you know, he's

Tommy Vietor

just, he's, he's served in public office.

Jon Favreau

Right.

Tommy Vietor

He's very, wasn't like plucked out of obscurity.

Jon Lovett

And like the big controversy was about whether or not after he got his MD PhD, he technically did a residency. It's like, that's like, it's very different than a Nazi tattoo and a sexual assault allegation.

Jon Favreau

But is it like both candidates now? I've seen them in interviews be like, well, this race isn't really about Israel and everyone else wants to make it about Israel and Gaza, but we want to make it about Michigan. But even there, there's not a lot of like there's not a fight about healthcare. Like, you're for Medicare for All and I'm from the public Option. Let's duke it out. You're for abolishing ice, I'm for reforming ice. Let's duke it out on that. There's surprisingly little attacks from both of the supporters at least on the policy issues and more on.

Tommy Vietor

It's more like, it's more like money driven policy issues. It's like you've taken all this money from corporations or APAC or others, therefore you're beholden to them. That is kind of the proxy for a lot of the political fights. And then. But for Haley, it's like there's a similarly weird thing happening online with her, which is like a lot of people are plucking up speeches where they think she looks goofy and sharing them. And then it turns out maybe people like those speeches, we don't really know.

Jon Lovett

Well, I was, I was into like there, there's moments where she's kind of goofy and like, kind of. She's like, gotta, we gotta let her rip. We gotta stick it to him. And like it's kind of sweet. And there's this kind of aesthetics where if someone who is seen as centrist or pro Israel does something that is slightly cringe, that or it happened to Mallory McMurra too when she was in the kind of Elizabeth Warren role to Abdul and they were mad at her. Like, this is so embarrassing. You're so embarrassing. It's cringe. Like, this is the problem. This is the problem. You don't understand real people because you don't understand what, what broken brained online people think is funny anymore. But if Abdul has made plenty of cringy content, but he's good for the movement and so those things aren't as bad. And I was thinking about when Schumer farted on the Senate floor. And I do think he did not make the most of it. I think he should have done it. About how we were having a gas crisis. What happened to the man Schumer used to be, the guy at the gas station. There was a moment where he could have made news about it.

Tommy Vietor

He fucked up.

Jon Favreau

Sorry, I was just unblocking the straight of hormones.

Jon Lovett

Exactly, exactly. Look, look. Not the only, not the only waterway that we're having trouble getting things through these days at my age. But so, but, but I know, but if like mom, Donnie farted during press conference, there would be stories about how like man, everybody's farting again.

Tommy Vietor

He's so good at this.

Jon Lovett

He's so good at this. This is a master at work generation. This is why we need Medicare for all, he'd say or something. I don't know.

Tommy Vietor

How do we get the farting?

Jon Favreau

Because, oh, because, oh, because there's a lot of like, Right. Because it's sticking to it.

Jon Lovett

Let's just stick it to him. But, but at the same time, it's like, okay, you want to be this sort of like hardscrabble kind of salt of the earth campaigner, but also your campaign is propped up by tens of millions of dollars of outside money. And John, to your point, like, one of the reasons that debate is about that outside money and about Israel is because she as an establishment figure doesn't have like a clear. Other than just her bringing money home for vision. They'll auto bail it. Like, what's the policy place where she feels so strongly she wants to pick a fight with Abdul over it?

Jon Favreau

Well, this is, this is. Yes, and I know this is naive of me, but, like, as we head into a presidential primary season, like, my wish is that the factional war within the Democratic Party is fought over different policy positions because there are plenty of differences between the left and the center left. And I think sometimes what the establishment center left, whatever you want to call them more moderate Democrats does is they look at the progressive movement, progressive candidates, and they either take umbrage or dismiss them or say, or just like, attack, attack, attack. And it's like, try to. You gotta be for something.

Jon Lovett

Yes.

Jon Favreau

You gotta be excited about your candidates and you gotta run candidates who are exciting and charismatic and have something that they really want to get done, but they default to. And you can kind of hear this with. And I'm not saying Stevens does this, but some of her supporters do it. But she works so hard and she's just, she's got her head down and she works hard. And that's like the, the, that's like the thing for all the establishment candidates is like, they just, they're servant, they're public servants and they're working hard. It's like, yeah, everyone's. Everyone in public life who's running for office is working hard and doing a lot of good stuff.

Tommy Vietor

Well, she's sort of a throwback. It's sort of a throwback campaign. Like, there was a. Not that long ago, most campaigns were like, I'm gonna deliver for my state. I'm gonna bring home the bacon. I'm gonna get earmarks and pork barrel and just like build a fucking airport over here.

Jon Favreau

And you know what? If Susan Collins wins, that's why.

Tommy Vietor

And it's Haley. Like, like it sounds like that's the kind of campaign she's running now. Somewhere along the way we found this desire where we also want people to be national figures and have national profiles and see value in that too. There's a bit of a race here on the, on the, the goofy content thing. Like, Abdul has put out videos that were so cringey that I sent them to his consultants and I said no more of this.

Jon Lovett

I bet. Right. Was he in a hat?

Tommy Vietor

I don't remember which one it was. It might have been more than one. But like, he's put out a lot of corny shit now. I think there are people rightly pointing out that I think Haley is treated differently because she is a woman. There's a lot of misogyny and sexism in the messaging you'll see on Twitter about these videos. They're also just kind of cringy videos at times. And like sometimes she's a goofy messenger and sometimes he's a goofy fucking messenger. And it's not always loaded to say that too. Like that's the other part of this.

Jon Lovett

Well, this is where like the attention

Jon Favreau

economy has made people do crazy things.

Tommy Vietor

Yes.

Jon Lovett

Like there's a whole range of issues that are just not really that much a part of a Democratic debate. Education, one of the most important issues where Democrats have lost ground for the last 10 years. Yep. Or five years. Really six years. And like, I'll say something that would like, this is one of the reasons why if Rahm runs for president, like, it will be good because he will be the person that flip it.

Jon Favreau

Right. Shut up.

Tommy Vietor

I saw Austin point fuck right after.

Jon Favreau

It will be good.

Jon Lovett

It will be. It will be.

Jon Favreau

Send it.

Jon Lovett

He will. For he will. He will. He will have that kind of old school Democratic politics where he like he

Jon Favreau

start now starring on Hasan Piker's next stream.

Tommy Vietor

This is how Ari gets him back on Survivor 2 because he will force

Jon Lovett

debates about these questions on his road to not being the nominee. And like on a broad range of issues that will like kind of like in the way that Haley Stevens is not causing, not kind of forcing questions back over to Abdul on policy questions. I think you need center left figures who do that because we need to have those big debates. That's all.

Tommy Vietor

Well, Haley's big attack on Abdul in the debate was like, you haven't released your tax returns yet. And I just wonder like it was another kind of like it felt like an old school criticism of Someone. I just wondered if you call them a celebrity.

Jon Favreau

Well, it feels like. Like he's attacking her on money. Right? Like, you've got all this money spent on your behalf. So she's like, I want to do a money thing.

Tommy Vietor

It's not legitimate. I'm just wondering if voters care. I can't tell. We'll find out.

Jon Favreau

Who knows? Speaking of Bernie, CNN reported over the weekend that back in March, when he backed a challenger to a Democratic House incumbent in North Carolina, Hakeem Jeffries called him and warned him against meddling in House primaries, arguing that it's divisive and a drain on limited resources that could go to beating Republicans. Another member who was on the call said Sanders, quote, seemed not to care. What do you guys think? Seems I absolutely buy that the most.

Jon Lovett

Jolene phone call, like, please, please, I know you can take these districts. Please stop. Please stop. He's my man.

Tommy Vietor

It's like, I get why Hakeem Jeffries would not want divisive primaries. I can't imagine any scenario where he thought Bernie Sanders would care. I can't. It's hard to imagine a conversation Bernie Sanders would care about less, other than the debate.

Jon Lovett

The interview I had with him where he tried to get out of it a few minutes early, where he did this. This is.

Jon Favreau

This is another. This is another problem with, like, the establishment argument is. It's. The response is always like, no, no, no, these primaries shouldn't happen, or these candidates. Guess what? The candidates are going to run. People are going to sign up and they're going to run for office, and they're going to be from all political persuasions and doing the whole. And Hillary started this in 2016 with Bernie. Right. It's like, they're not real Democrats and they don't respect the Democratic Party's institutions. Like, you know, who doesn't respect the Democratic Party's institution? America.

Jon Lovett

And actually. And more specifically, Democrats.

Jon Favreau

Right, exactly. So it's like, not the greatest argument to be like, how dare you run? And how dare you upset our primaries? It's like, go, beat them. Beat them with better ideas. Beat them by saying that, like, their ideas are bad or their ideas aren't gonna resonate with most American people. Like, there's plenty to go after before just being like, don't run.

Jon Lovett

Yeah. It's a. You know, these are people trying to do a hostile takeover of a failing enterprise. You know, they're. If you think they're not the right people to lead, you gotta make a much better case to the shareholders because they're looking at your record and they're thinking, I'm gonna kind of take a shot on these people.

Jon Favreau

Yeah. Also look at the Republican Party. Did that work really well for them? For all the establishment figures in the Republican Party, when they were like, no, Donald Trump can't be it.

Tommy Vietor

Right, Good point, but. And also they're facing their own version of this. Like in Arizona, Andy Biggs is probably gonna be the Republican gubernatorial. No, he's a lunatic. In Iowa, my buddy Rob sand is up against this complete unknown dude whose primary work background was like working for the Koch brothers for a decade. He doesn't even live in the state. He's in Iowa half the time. He's in Kansas.

Jon Lovett

That Colorado guy, that's like, yeah, when I was a kid, I killed people. What's up? What of it? What of it? We all do it.

Tommy Vietor

Wait, what?

Jon Lovett

Go back.

Tommy Vietor

That's one of the all time interviews. So I killed someone. What up it. But yeah, no, they've nominated this lunatic in Iowa who wants to like ban the MRNA vaccine. He wants Covid vaccines off the shelf. He's Marxists, hijacked the curriculum in Iowa. There's a decade of Republican rule, but they're not backing away from him. The RGA is going to put tens of millions of dollars on air behind this guy. So it's.

Jon Favreau

Anyway, yeah, well, like you said, I think it's going to be a bumpy couple weeks in these primaries, but once August comes and goes, we're all behind the nominee, whoever it may be. Did you see that? On the sidelines of one of the events with Abdul, Politico asked AOC about running for president and she said, I can't say that I've ruled it out. She also talked about her own definition of what big tent means, general thoughts on how she's preparing for the possibility of a run in 28. We've talked so much about elections that are happening in November, we get a little treat to talk. Do just a tiny bit of speculation before we, before we end the pod.

Jon Lovett

Yeah, there's a little bit of like, there's like an Axios story about, like, about AOC embracing kind of Obama style, hope and change as sort of some, as a, as like evidence of her shift in preparation for running. And I don't really think it like reflects a, like if you go. I think AOC has evolved as a public figure and I think she has learned a lot since she's been in Congress. But I think part of what her appeal has always been is that that she's asked and she says something like, I don't come from a. I come from a working class family. I didn't come from a militant leftist family. Right. Like that's just right. Like reading the stage directions a little bit. But her appeal has always been that she hasn't sounded like what Republicans want her to sound like. She sounded so much more optimistic and hopeful. And she's also, by the way, said something similar about not ruling out, like I think a month ago, like, this is gonna be something that keeps happening. But whether she runs for Senate or president or neither, like she's gonna use the power she has. And she is, I think, a more important and attention worthy figure. As long as the possibility of running for president is out there, the single

Tommy Vietor

best way to get media coverage is to suggest that you're going to run for president. She's smart. She knows that this will get her attention for her ideas. I don't know if she's gonna run or not. Feels like she might. The only size tent we are allowed to have is circus.

Jon Favreau

It's like the Democratic Party.

Tommy Vietor

Our tent has gotta be gigantic at this point because we need to fit a lot of people under 10 underneath this thing. So I'm glad she's saying that.

Jon Favreau

I will say that if I were her and I were thinking of running for president, she is. And she's probably being told and knows herself because she's very, very smart, that her risk is that she's seen as too left and too extreme and she's seen all the polling data, I'm sure. And if you're going to run for president and you at least want to prepare for the possibility that you might. I think she's doing all the right things that you would do, which it made me less than her answers right about, like, are you running or not? Like the way that she's endorsing or not endorsing. Certainly she didn't endorse Graham Platner. She hasn't endorsed this progressive challenger in Michigan in a House seat and then

Jon Lovett

wasn't on stage for the like. She's like being very careful.

Jon Favreau

She's being very careful, but not in a way that seems like cautious. Like she's just being in her rhetoric. Right. Like she said, you can have a clear vision for what we're trying to accomplish as a country and also include everyone in it and show that everyone has a place in that as well. It's just, it's not the same as you hear from many of the DSA candidates, Today, Except Mamdani, I should say.

Jon Lovett

Yeah. I take her also at her word when she was asked about this previously. What she's looking for is sort of outcomes. Right. She's not just about her and her position. And if you think in 2028, there's obviously gonna be a big, contentious and very important primary, either the vote of the left will be divided or it will be united behind one figure. If it is her, she knows that as that person she trusts, like she knows how responsible and capable and careful she will be and deliberate about how to hold that position, whether it is as the nominee or as the person who helps unite the party behind whoever the nominee would be. And that is like the figure who is right to represent, like, what comes after. Bernie is someone who a just truly believes in this fight and representing it as persuasively as possible. But also like Bernie and AOC understand that if the moderate, more moderate candidate wins, it is just as important to get behind them.

Jon Favreau

She comes across as someone who takes very seriously her role in the party, whatever it may be, and her role in politics, which is a good thing to see. All right, that's our show for today. Dan and I will be back with a new show on Friday. Pod Save America is a crooked media production. Our show is produced by Austin Fisher, Saul Rubin, McKenna Roberts and Farah Safari, with Ri Churlin, Elijah Cohn and Adrian Hill. Our team includes Matt de Groat, Ben Hethcote, Jordan Kantor, Charlotte Landis, Kirill Pelavie, David Towles, Mia Kellman, Ryan Young and Naomi Singel. Our staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.