A

Foreign. Hi, everyone, and welcome to the ScreenStrong Families Podcast, bringing you the best solutions for parents who are serious about eliminating screen conflicts in their home. This is Melanie Hempe, and I'm so glad you're joining us today. If you're one of our regular listeners, welcome back. And if you're a new friend, we're so glad you found us. You are no longer alone on this journey of navigating screens in your home. You have found your people over here at Screen Strong. So today we have an exciting guest joining us. We're going to talk about kids in schools and screens. That's just such a great thing to talk about. But if you ever feel like something has. Has changed with kids and you can't quite explain it, you're right. Teachers across the country, I think they saw it first. And so our guests today is Joe Clement. He wrote the book, co authored Screen Schooled. So excited to have you back on. Joe, welcome, welcome. Give us a little bit of background. So glad to have you back.

B

Thank you. It's great to be back. Love all the work you're doing. And we've taken quite a journey together. Yeah, I mean, we came into this, we both been doing this work a long time, and it, and, you know, it's. What's interesting to me is neither of us really planned on doing this was not part of the life plan at all. And I started teaching 32 years ago, and, you know, it was great. I mean, it still is great, of course, but the, the, the game started changing. I don't know, I would say more than a decade ago, but at least a decade ago, something was going on that wasn't quite right. It. In, in the classroom, the, the conversations we were having, discussions we were having weren't as robust and interesting as they used to be. Kids, kids have a lot of trouble focusing for any kind of period of time. And they. Answers they would give were. Were weak. And they seemed to have trouble doing, you know, things in class, things outside of class, interacting with each other, just normal. I teach high school, so normal teenage stuff, even just, you know, down to flirting and just talking about making weekend plans or whatever, anything. It was all changing and it was all getting worse.

A

And you were, you were one of the first really to come out of the woodwork. And that's kind of how we found each other, I think, because I was over here being the parent figuring out what was happening. You were being the teacher trying to figure it out.

B

Yeah.

A

And in your book, Screen Schooled with you, you and Matt wrote was just like, groundbreaking, right? Because it was. All of a sudden, teachers were speaking up. It really has helped so many families. But we gotta talk today about still what's happening, because there's a lag. Something isn't. I mean, your book has been out for a good many years, and we've been trying to get it out there. And we talk to teachers all the time. Everybody gets it. You saw it. You saw it in the very beginning. Talk about the last few years. Like to bring us kind of up to speed with where. I mean, it hadn't gotten any better, I can tell you that.

B

No, but there are. There are definitely signs that we're, you know, we're. We're being annoying and noisy enough that people are starting to pay attention, which is great. Obviously, the. I mean, we gotta. I mean, it's. Because ultimately, you know, this is all about saving kids. And I was giving a talk the other night, and there's a. I just noticed a really interesting group of people, Oprah Winfrey, Hugh Grant, and Ted Cruz, who you don't think of as people who might often work together on very many issues, but they're all three passionate about saving kids from the addictive slob that were thrown at our kids. And that society has decided is okay. So the last few years have been really interesting because when Matt and I wrote the book, Matt is my colleague, he's teacher at the same school, and we were seeing the same thing. So. And we. When we looked around for what was out there regarding screen and overuse in education, there was nothing out there. The only thing we found in like 20, 15, 16, in that era about screens in school was how great it is and how you got to meet kids where they are. And everybody bring. It was BYOD was the time, bring your own device to school. And we want kids to have their phones. We want kids on social media, because kids love social media and they love their phones. And so let's just use that as a tool because that's where they are and that's what they love and blah, blah, blah. And that, I mean, it's fine on. On the surface, but then if you drill down even a little bit, you realize these are not apps and tools that are made to be used responsibly, really, by anybody, but especially by kids. And so you have these young people who are being encouraged in school, hey, get your phone out. And blah, blah, blah. And we were saying the exact opposite. And so, you know, our message was not well received by. By our school system.

A

And Then.

B

So it's kind of ironic today when you drive by like the school where I teach, right out front on the marquee, it says cell phones off, learning on. And you know, nobody's apologized to us about all the bad stuff we said. I mean they said about us. I guess that's the point is people are I think finally starting to take it seriously and realizing that, you know, it's not, I mean right now it's the phones. People are really kind of focused on getting phones outta school, which is great. But it's all of it. It's all of it. It's YouTube in school, on the laptop, you know, one to one programs where every kid gets a laptop or an iPad or whatever. Like all of it is harming kids. And I think people are waking up. So it's, that's been nice to see.

A

Yeah, that, that is such a great point because we have heard that when the phones come out that's okay, but then they're just going to the next device. So in, in fact last year I talked to a bunch of teachers who were so excited about the phone free school policies and I know you and I thought that would never really happen, but it's happening and we were so happy when it's happened. But we all know kids and, and we know what they're going to do. They're going to go to the next thing. So they're just texting on their laptops and they're, they're search, you know, they're still doing everything on the computer. So really screens have no place really in schools, period. It's like whoever thought bringing a TV to school was a good idea? It's really not a good idea. I mean that's basically what we're doing. So on this first little episode here, I want to talk about kind of what's happening and kind of our wake up call with that. And then the next episode, let's talk about what to do about it. So this isn't about like weak kids or bad parents. It's about this environmental kind of mis match. And that's what we're here sounding the alarm and have done for many years. Yeah, and you've been doing it for a long time. So what actually changed like in your years teaching? What shifted just to bring us up to speed for maybe there's some people listening here kind of knew the conversation. What shifted once devices became constant in the classroom?

B

Yeah, the, the main thing was just attention. Right. So that's the, I mean if that's the that's the baseline in a classroom. If you don't have the attention of the. The learners, then you got. You got nothing. You're just talking into the wind. So try and. I mean, and this is. I mean, adults, Right. If you're. You're sitting at dinner with your spouse and they get their phone out and they start scrolling through TikTok or whatever.

A

Yeah.

B

First of all, it's insulting.

A

Yeah.

B

And second of all, you know that they're not paying attention to what you're saying.

A

They can't.

B

And that's for an adult. So imagine being 14. I mean, any of us imagine being 14 and being. Being handed a device that provides infinite entertainment options and is for sure going to be more interesting. I mean, to most kids. You know, the. Whatever's on their phone is going to be way more. Or their computer or whatever. It's going to be way more interesting than, you know.

A

Yeah.

B

I mean, I feel like I'm pretty engaging in the classroom, but it's going over like discharge petitions from Congress and blah, blah, blah. Like they.

A

Kid can.

B

Can look at, you know, YouTube or porn or video games or whatever. They. I'm taking a very, very far back seat. So. So that was the main thing in the beginning was just the attention. And. And so you end up fighting this battle. Like, the whole class period just became about a. Okay, phone's away, phone's away. Put your phone back, get it, you know, blah, blah, blah.

A

So, yeah, the first thing is the attention. I can't even imagine. I mean, when I'm trying to talk to my kids when they were at home in middle school and high school, they're not looking at me like, they're not even hearing what I'm saying. So obviously they're not going to learn if they're in a classroom and they're being distracted by that. So it's really not like this motivation problem. It's external distraction that becomes like this brain problem.

B

Yeah. You know, Matt and I have been very careful about. And you're great in all your work to not. This isn't we, you know, blaming kids or even, you know, or blaming parents. It's that there. I mean, you called it a mismatch. That's exactly right. Like, you can't. You can't expect good things to come out of. I mean, just, you know, if you had, like, if you were teaching a class and you had, you know, a mariachi band in the background, you were trying to, you know, teach or whatever, and there's like, you know, there's a trampoline act and trapezes and whatever. On. Like, you would never think to do that. You'd say, well, I got to get all this stuff stopped first before whatever. So, I mean, that's all that's. And worse, obviously on the phone or the, the whatever device you have, you know, kindergarten or with an iPad or whatever, you're never going to have their attention. So that's, you know, if we can't even get to that part of the conversation, then we're, we're really struggling. And that's where we were for a long time. And you know, like I said, I feel like people are waking up, but it's. Yeah, it's not weak kids or dumb kids or oh, these kids are so lazy. I would have been the exact same way. And you know, I went to high school in the 80s and I would have for sure, in the same way.

A

And then you can't. And you can understand then what you've been sounding the alarm for so many years is that they're not learning because it's the multitasking that's trying to happen, because we know multitasking isn't really a thing. It's the multi switching back and forth and back and forth. And when you do that, there's, there's not that like deep learning. I don't know how they remember anything if they're that distracted.

B

Well, and then, and so to make that even worse, you get the narrative, the pro tech side, and they're even just, I would say, I mean, they're not bad people, just misinformed people within education that talk about, you know, the need for schools. And I mean, the need for. Need for schools. We do need schools. The need for phones and screens and whatever else. They start questioning the need for knowledge. They would say, well, kids don't even need to know anything anymore. Like, there are adults who would say that. So then of course the kids are going, I can just look that up. Why do I need to know? You know, whatever. I don't, I don't know. Whatever. And so, so you get this fundamental. Another mismatch that happens is the fundamental, the, the kids understanding of what education's about and then what education's actually about. We're working at cross purposes. And that, that becomes another struggle when it's just a, you know, a kid questioning and you can understand why they do it, questioning the value of anything that's happening during the school day or what value you have as a teacher or what's happening in the Classroom or whatever. So it's really a very destructive pattern we've developed.

A

We'll talk about some of the emotional and social changes because we know that the academic challenges have just been huge. But you mentioned something a second ago about, like, they're not even flirting. I love that you said that, because talk about how, you know, friendships and these emotional skills, like relational, soft, I call them soft life skills. You know, just talk about how that has changed. And of course, then we're not at all surprised that we're more anxious now.

B

But, yeah, anxious and depressed and all the, you know, pretty much by any measure, this is a. This is a. An emotionally, psychologically less healthy generation than maybe we've ever seen. When I think back to the earlier and earlier days of my career, if there was a test, if I was given a test, you know, kids are going to finish at different times. I always had to make sure to have something. I have a stack of old magazines I would always raid, like my doctor's office or the dentist's office or whatever just to get something to have at the front of the room. So when a kid came up to take the, you know, turn in their test, I could give them a magazine and say, just go sit and read for, for five minutes until everybody's done. Because you didn't do that. It was going to be pandemonium. Like, everybody was going to be talking and kids are going to be up moving around or whatever, because kids are kids and they want to interact and they're social and classrooms are naturally, if they're working right, I think most of the time they're noisy. But you can't have it noisy during a test. So you got to blah, blah, blah. Well, enter the phone and boy, the classrooms are quiet. They got quiet fast.

A

And.

B

And on the one hand, you know, so some people would look at that and go, well, isn't that nice? You know, you don't have to worry about that, you know, during a test anymore or after a test or whatever. Or, you know, you have a free period because you have a study hall, like they have homeroom or something. Home removes to just be chaos because again, kids are flirting and arguing and fighting, you know, whatever. But who's. Whatever. Whose team is better, you know, just doing, you know, talking. It would just be silent. Just the deafening silence of kids just staring and scrolling and staring and scrolling. And so if school, where you're supposed to develop all those skills, I mean, once you, you know, reach a certain age, you get to be five or six years old and you start school, most of your wake day is spent there. That's where you're supposed to develop those conflict resolution skills and those just convert, just common conversational skills. I'm supposed to be able to read your face. I said this mean thing and then I saw you look sad and now I go, oh geez, I don't, I should, maybe I shouldn't have said that. And if you're ever seeing that you're just staring at a screen all day long, you, I mean it's use or lose it. If you don't develop those skills, especially as a young person, you're just simply not going to develop them. And what's, what's really, I think very sad to watch when, you know, in the morning before school when you know, kids are, you know, they're allowed to have their phone at a high school before the first bell rings, you know, they'll be in the hall, nobody talking and stuff, but they're talking and they're often gathered around somebody's phone. So even those conversations where they're talking supposedly like to one another, they're really talking about whatever is on the phone that somebody's holding. Even then they're not really interacting. They're, they're kind of pointing out and making fun of or talking about whatever's happening on the screen and so on. So their comfort zone has become the digital world. You know, whatever the screen based digital device that they've got is, that's where they feel comfortable. And I think that's, I think you can undo that. You know, obviously we can, we can bring kids back into the, into the real world. But there's a generation now. It's, I mean it's been 10, over 10 years. It's been almost 20 years since the smart first smartphone came out. Right. It was 2007. 2010 was when they sort of became ubiquitous for high school kids and you know, high school and so on. Yeah, so we've got a generation who really missed a lot of those e. Developmental social moments. And so they, you know, it's coming back I think I like to think on, you know, in the better days. But it's also, it's a, it's. They have much less interactions in general and less interesting ones also.

A

And you're seeing it like firsthand right in the, you know, sweet spot of every day in the classroom with the kids. Like parents, you know, we see things before school, which is pretty dramatic and we see things after school. But during the middle of the day is when you see the good stuff and that's when the good stuff is supposed to be happening. And what you just said about how they're quiet and they're not, you know, joking and flirting and talking as much and all that, you know, kids are supposed to be really noisy. Yeah, they're supposed to be noisy. They're supposed to move a lot. They're supposed to be a little bit obnoxious. That's okay. And what it reminds me of, I know this, this is going to sound kind of really sad, but it reminds me of a drowning child. You never hear a drowning child.

B

Yep.

A

When there's silence in my house, you know, I worry.

B

Sure.

A

Because if the kids are home and it's quiet, every mom and dad, like, you know, that's not a good sign, you know, they're in trouble. And I think this is just a real wake up call for our whole culture, you know, and that you see that during the day, how sad it must be to be a teacher and to just kind of be like, what happened? Like, where. Yeah, where's all that stuff? You know?

B

Yeah. Most of us, you know, most of us got into this because we like the, you know, whatever particular age group we work with, I mean, you, you know, you, you like your content and the, you know, lessons and blah, blah, blah. Yeah, but you like kids. Yeah. And so you, you expect there to be the chaos and the messiness and the, you know, whatever and, you know. Yeah, you like, you know, all the, all the, you know, sometimes. Yes. The things that they give you and you give right back to them and whatever. And. Yeah, that, you know, in fact, it might have been the social piece and the silence that really woke Matt and I up before anything else. I mean, the learning, the learning was, was right there with it.

A

Yeah, but you were like a parent saying, what's happening in my room?

B

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it was the same. But, you know, I saw it for I. My kids, I have three kids, are 27, 23 and 11. So I've gotten this, this wide view. You know, the 27 year olds went through most of school and screens were really kind of not an issue. And then the 23 year old's junior year was when the world shut down. So screens were an issue before that, but then his senior year was just, you know, disaster and you know, the end of his junior year and then my 11 year old, like her whole existence in school, like they want her on screen all the time. And, you know, I've done my best to keep her away from it, but the, the expectation now is for sure that it's the understanding that, well, I mean kid obviously has to have a computer all day long, which is, I mean, obviously utter nonsense.

A

Yeah, yeah, talk about that, talk about that for a minute about the, the math of this attack and why that didn't work. We, we actually have all the data now to prove it.

B

Yeah.

A

So.

B

Yeah. And you know what's really sad is we, you know, the data were out there when, when Matt and I wrote the book and we, you know, we wrote, and the book was published in 17. We did most of the writing in 16 and early 17. And so in the book we were, I mean we, we were quoting studies that were already out there, you know, in, in 13, 14, 15. And they were pretty clear then. I mean it's only gotten more clear in the, in the, in the, and the, the, the knock that people sometimes had with our book in the beginning was, well, this is mostly correlative. It's not causative, blah, blah, blah. Well, I mean there have been a bunch of other books that have come out since and a bunch of other studies that have made it very clear that there's, there's a, there's causative factors here and, and the, you know, the big one is just when you throw a screen based device at a kid, guess what? They're, they don't learn anything.

A

Yeah.

B

Um, you know, the, the UN did a big study on worldwide on one to one, one to one programs. And I was at a conference two years ago and the, the woman who co authored the study said we have never. And it was at UNESCO which studies education issues around the world. She, her quote was, I, I've, I know of no other bigger waste of money in education in the history of, since we've been doing this than one to one. I mean it's, it's not only not helping, it's hurting. Like the scores are going backward and you can see, I mean Jared Cooney Horvath's book Digital Delusion, he's got a bunch of great stats and charts and stuff up to date, stuff that are global and the US I mean it's everywhere. And it's very clear that these again, well intentioned but misinformed education leaders have decided that well, you've got to have a device in order to learn. I mean it's just, I can't think of something more destructive for a kid's brain than to just turn it over to a, you know, the computer.

A

Yeah, well, let's talk about their brains. For a second, I totally agree with you. I couldn't agree with you more about let's figure out the worst thing we can do and then do that, and that's putting screens in the classroom. Like, I, that's just got to be the worst thing you can do. There's really nothing worse than that. Except if we maybe, you know, passed out cocaine or something, maybe that would be worse. Right? But I don't know, it might not be, I don't know. Um, but it is about their brains. And, and I know I, this is what we spent a lot of time on, educating people about kids brains, because you gotta start somewhere. I mean, otherwise it just becomes heated arguments and debates and opinions over, you know, parenting styles and all that. So I learned early on, if we could bring some of the science back into this, then we're gonna all calm down and we're gonna get the right solution pretty quickly. So one thing, of course, you know, that what we do is we provide a lot of education for kids. And you've been a part of helping us with all of that. But I wanted to ask you just in your opinion from the classroom, how aware are kids of what these devices are actually doing to them? Like, did they get it? I mean, you know, our work is trying to explain the neuroscience to the child even. But do you think they get it or do you think they're kind of like, still kind of lost over what's happening?

B

Well, I, I can tell you the kids who've been through any kind of screen strong screen training have they get it.

A

They get it.

B

Yeah. They understand. And so, yeah, the work you've done is, is really remarkable because kids, when they do, when they find out, they're horrified. I mean, they don't, you know, Trey, you really want to annoy a teenager, tell them that they're being played, you know, they're being manipulated, that somebody's getting one over on them. So they, you know, part of it is willful ignorance. I think they know that it's not great for them. But if, you know, generally speaking, understand that, that they probably could be happier if they weren't on social media. I think, you know, but that, but in terms of understanding why that is or how it all works, I don't, I don't think they, some of the kids have heard of dopamine before.

A

Okay.

B

I don't think they understand the, the link between what they're looking at because you don't, you know, you don't notice it necessarily. You're Just because you're, you're transfixed on this. Whatever happens.

A

No, you can't see it.

B

You don't really feel it happening until you're sad later on when you don't have your phone or you, you know, you, that your, your crash comes.

A

Yeah.

B

And they don't, you know, most kids don't, I don't think, have the sophistication to, to link it to their, their phone use or their social media use or whatever it happens to be. So that's why I think tools like yours are so important for kids to. Because what you've done is empowered the, you know, the parent and the kid to go, wait a minute, I don't. This is something. And it's the same thing we had to do with cigarettes, you know, when we were growing up. The cigarettes, I mean, I'm in Virginia, North Carolina. Like, cigarettes were every, you know, was the, the best thing in the world.

A

Yeah, yeah.

B

And then eventually you got into health classes where it was like, well, you know, you, maybe you shouldn't be smoking or we shouldn't be pushing this on you. We had a smoking court in my high school for kids to smoke because the smoking age. Smoking age was 16. And over time we got the, we realized, oh, you know what, that's a, that's a terrible thing to do to children. And we stopped doing it. And so I, I hope the same trajectory holds for, for what we're doing to kids brains because we're, it's the, it's really the same situation.

A

Yeah. And I think that we can teach them. I think like we had to teach them about smoking. You and I remember in middle school the bringing the black lungs and the flam aldehyde jars and being like, oh my gosh, I'm not gonna smoke if that's what it does to my lungs.

B

And what's interesting about cigarettes in particular is like my classroom is not too far from a student bathroom and you used to be able to sell, smell cigarette smoke all day long because it's going to the bathroom smoke. I haven't smelled cigarette smoke up there in, I don't know, six, eight, ten years maybe. So they can, I guess the point is they can learn. You know, my generation didn't learn, but they, you know, they, and it's possible. And so I, we get this message out there, you know, to more parents, more kids, more teachers, to make sure they understand what's happening to their brains, because it was just like what was happening with their lungs.

A

They finally got it, finally got it, and it did take a while. So we're, we're going to wrap up and then we're going to get into, we're going to get into next, the next episode. We're going to talk about what parents specifically can do. But before we wrap up this session, I'm going to ask you the question, do kids need phones in schools? Let's just get this clear. I don't want anybody to be mistaken.

B

Yeah, no, there's no, I mean there may be some, you know, medical situations with an app that, you know, a kid has to have in order to do this or that or whatever. But I mean those, those situations are extremely rare and very few and far between for the overwhelming majority of kids. There is no reasonable possibility that a kid would need a phone during a school day. I mean, and so I wish parents would think about when, you know, when any of us were growing up, we didn't, obviously we didn't have phones in school, but our parents could still get an emergency message to us or come pick us up if they needed to or whatever. There's schools still have phones in the, in the offices and you can call and make sure the kid knows that this is happening. And you don't want to text a kid about an emergency anyway. Put them on stage in class and give them some horrible information. The kid needs to be pulled out of class and taken off stage and you know, counselor's going to help or the parents going to drive to the school and we're going to meet together or I got to come pick them up earlier. I told him it was going to be two o'. Clock. It's really going to be one or whatever. All that can be handled. The school office, there's no reason for a good to be to put that burden on a kid. I think that's another way parents should think about it is it's really a tremendous burden on a child during this, especially during the school day. I mean, I think anytime, but especially during the school day.

A

Yeah.

B

What a, what a roadblock to their learning. So no, there's no other than, you know, the very rare circumstance of a medical situation. No.

A

So, so how can you wrap up here to just encourage parents about learning about this? I feel like we've got to encourage parents. And how would you do that? Like, obviously they should read your book. And I'm not just saying that you learn so much in your book about what's happening behind the scenes. I love the way you open it in the stories and the examples like so I think education is it. But how, how would you. If you had. If you had a parent sitting in front of you right now, and, and they're, they're in your office. And what do you, what do you recommend? How do you encourage them?

B

Yeah, the, the main thing is, and again, I've been teaching a long time, change in schools only happens when parents lead it. I mean, if, and, you know, whether it's a boundary dispute or it's what time of day school is going to start. We had that. We've been, you know, going back and forth on that. Are we going to do block scheduling or seven period day or whatever? Any of the big issues. It's parents that decide. Like, a small group of committed parents got rid of phones in, you know, like countries, states. I mean, that movement's kind of sweeping across the country, but it's, it's small groups of committed parents. So parents have agency in all of these fights. There's always something you can do. And that, that to me would be the main message is don't. Don't throw up your hands and go, well, I mean, the school said so. Therefore, wow. No way. Parents are in charge. I mean, they really can and should in this, in an issue like this, really take the lead.

A

That's really encouraging because it's a lot of times you hear teachers saying, you know, don't bug us. So. I love that you said that.

B

Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

A

I just want to show your book again. Here it is. We love this book. I, I get a few. I have a few cases of it actually, and I actually take it when I'm doing a lot more work in schools now because we're working with the Adventures of Super Brain, our third grade book. That is. We're. We're starting to get this in more schools. We'll talk about that in our next show a minute. But. But they go hand in hand because you got to learn why, and then we got to help kids understand why. Yeah. So thank you so much for everything that you shared today. Thank you so much. We'll have you back here. And we're going to get to part two again. Thanks for coming. We'll see you next time. I hope this episode has helped encourage you. Get a handle on the reasons why you're not alone in this struggle to help your kids. And you're not, like, as a parent, you know, you're not out there making this up. Like, what you're experiencing and what Joe's experienced in the classroom is really real. So you need to talk to your school about getting more educated, about getting the screen schooled, book about getting the screen strong material as well, and set your kids up for success. So it's not just parents. So thank you so much for joining us today. Please share this episode with a friend. Remember, we've got your back over here at Screenstrong, and we're here to help you. We have everything you need to remove the screen conflicts from your home. So until next time, stand up for your kids, stand out from the crowd, and stay strong.