A

Hello everybody and welcome back to Small Town Murder Express.

B

Yay. And choo choo.

A

Yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petregallo. I'm here with my co host, Jimmy Smith.

B

I'm Jimmy Whisman.

A

Thank you folks so much for joining us today on another really absolutely crazy, messy, twisty episode of Small Town Murder express. This is 10 pounds of murder in a two pound bag. Here it is. Wild stuff. Before we get to that, absolutely. Head over to shutupandgivememurder.com get your tickets for live shows. September 18th will be at the Pabst in Milwaukee. You definitely want to be there. That place is great and it's going to be a great show. Tickets are almost gone for that, so get those. The next night we're in Minneapolis at the State Theater. Get those tickets at September 19th. Do that because Milwaukee is winning the ticket buying battle right now with Minneapolis.

B

Battle of a war.

A

Minneapolis. You gotta fire back here, so do that.

B

I didn't know you were in it.

A

You had no idea. And then we're in Dallas, San Jose, Sacramento, Tarrytown, Boston and the rest of the year. That's October and November. So get your tickets right now. Shut upandgivemerder.com get yourself Patreon. Everybody. Do it. You need to do it. Patreon.com CrimeInSports is where you get all the bonus material. And we put out a ton, by the way. Anybody $5 a month or above, you get everything we put out. As soon as you subscribe, you're going to get almost 400 bonus episodes that you've never heard before immediately. Then you get new ones every other week. One crime and sports, one Small Town murder and you get it all, everybody. This week is no different. This week for crime and sports, speaking of Minnesota, we will be doing Kirby Puckett. We're going to talk about him for a bonus episode. Then for Small Town Murder, we're going to do Maternal Instinct. That's the documentary about the woman who cut the baby out of the woman and then pretended she just had it, which happens all the time by the. And I've seen not just the documentary. We'll talk about the interrogation stuff and her excuses. It's wild. And then the next one after that next bonus episode will be about love after lockup, by the way, because we've been really catching up on that. So that's patreon.com crimeinsports and on top of that, you get everything we put out. This would be worth it without even the bonus material, everything we put out ad free crime and sports. Your stupid opinion. Small town murder. Then on top of that you get a shout out as well, where Jimmy will mess your name all up at the end of the regular show. So do that and sign up for Patreon. That said, I think it's time, everybody. What do you say? Time to sit back, clear the lungs here. Here we go. Arms to the sky and let's all shout. Shut up and give me murder. Let's do this, everybody.

B

Okay.

A

Let's go on a trip, shall we? Yeah, let's do it. We're going to Pennsylvania this week. There we are. Here. That's why I put the prism shirt on the old Philadelphia cable channel. There we're going.

B

Pen is terrific. It is.

A

I like Pennsylvania. It's in eastern Pennsylvania. They need to legalize weed. I don't know what the fuck they're dragging their feet about there, but whatever this is in eastern Pennsylvania, everyone ignores it anyway, so it's not like anybody gives a shit. No one pays attention to that law anymore. All the states touching it, it's legal. What are we doing here?

B

Nobody cares.

A

What's the problem? This is in eastern Pennsylvania. This is Easton, Pennsylvania, in eastern Pennsylvan. Know from the aluminum bats, Little league there. And it's also the home of the birthplace, I believe, in growing up, a place of Larry Holmes, the ex heavyweight champion.

B

Oh, is that right?

A

Yeah, he's known as the Easton Assassin, as a matter of fact.

B

Oh, that makes sense.

A

This is about an hour and 20 minutes to Philly, about an hour and a half to New York City. So kind of right in the middle of that area there. And about 40 minutes to Jackson Township, Pennsylvania, episode 675, our last Pennsylvania episode, the Sinister Minister. I don' have to explain what that one was about.

B

You get it?

A

A sinister minister. And it was weird as shit, so it'll be fun. Check that out. This is in Northampton county, area code 610 and 484. Can't hold them back with one area code. Population here, 27,860. Not huge, not tiny, kind of. And it stayed around there for a long time in population. Median household income here a little bit below the national average. 58,243 grand. It's closer to 70,000 than the rest of the country. Median home cost also a little bit lower than the rest of the country, $300,500, which is not really that affordable on 58 grand.

B

It's tough for the east Coast. It's Pretty affordable. Right.

A

For an hour and a half to each major city. You could work in New York or Philadelphia. That's a big advantage right there to be able to work in one of two metropolitan. Major metropolitan areas. History of this town. It was originally referred to. It was originally the Lewanipe tribe were here and Easton and the surrounding region was known as wow Lekka wind tank. Which meant the place at the Forks. Thomas Penn, the Pennsylvania guy. Sure.

B

Yeah.

A

He set aside 1,000 acres of land at the confluence of the Lehigh and Delaware rivers for the town's establishment. And it was formally founded in 1752. So.

B

All right.

A

They built the Dell.

B

We love him out there.

A

Oh yeah. Everything popular, man Penn. Everything. Yeah. The Delaware Canal was built soon after that. And then we had other. This is to get anthracite coal to Philly, New Jersey and New York. They needed lots of coal for industrial shit back then.

B

Is anthracite the one that they burn? Is that what it is?

A

I think it is. I think that's for industrial type of. Yeah, I think that keeps a factory running. Another thing here, this is very niche in 1845, if you're a big fisherman here in 1845, Samuel Felipe or Philip, an Easton gunsmith, invented the six strip split cane bamboo fly rod.

B

Oh.

A

Invented that they use for trout fishing where you see the guys doing this back and forth all the time.

B

So they did it with a bamboo.

A

Is that what you said the poles are? Bamboo. Trout poles are supposed to be bamboo.

B

Slit it six times, I guess and get the.

A

There's. Yeah, that. And there's a weird thing with the reel. I don't know. Either way, there's a. Oh, it's a reel too. Yeah, I think so. Maybe just the rod he invented. Yeah. This is commemorated by the Pennsylvania Historical and Museum Commission. There's a plaque near the center square in Easton. This is where fly rods were invented.

B

Yeah. Cause otherwise you just throw it in the water and wait.

A

Right. You wait or you reel it back in if you're doing lures or whatever. But you don't keep doing this shit. That's a special type of thing.

B

The invention of getting tennis elbow while fishing.

A

Yeah. Jesus, that hurt. Having a sore arm. From fish reviews of this town, here's five stars. I've been living here for over 10 years without a complaint. Easton has a little bit of everything close to New Jersey and New York while also having its own downtown area. The city of Easton is up and coming, but still has a strong community that fosters service and standing up for what's right. A decade of that standing up for what's right. What are you talking about? All right. Four stars, cool bars, music scene, vintage clothes, skaters, live events like the Farmer's Market, Garlic Fest, Bacon Fest, and Winter Village.

B

Well, it sounds like you got everything for anybody from 18 to 38.

A

Sounds like a real hipster paradise, is what it sounds like. Hey, man, let's go to Garlic. Let's skate over to Garlic Fest, brah. Yeah, sounds good.

B

I can smell it.

A

Here's one star. Roaches infest Easton.

B

Oh.

A

Oh, boy. Our workplace currently has a horrible roach problem. The exterminator told me that Easton is basically infested with cockroaches from the sewer and always will be. Don't move here if you're scared of

B

roaches and always willing.

A

We can't kill em.

B

Get the taste of shit.

A

That's it. Well, it's like rats in New York City. They're here. They're here. You're not killing them. You know, you can move them from this area to that area. You can get them out of this building, they'll go to the next one. You can't kill all the rats in New York City. They're going to be there. And roaches are even harder to kill.

B

But cockroaches are.

A

Once they're in, they're in. Fuck yeah. Also, there's no parking anywhere and everyone here will get pissed at you if you park in front of their house or on a public street. The vibes here suck. Bad vibes, brah. Finally, one star. Easton was not my cup of tea. I have a big personality, and due to this big personality, I love the city. Not this city, other cities.

B

The big city.

A

Probably New York City. Easton is not city enough for me. It has its cute restaurants in downtown and the Crayola Factory, but that is just the simplest version of what I desire out of my, quote, home. Yeah, well, go move to the city then. Yeah, go move away then. Why'd you come here? Things to do. First, there's Bacon Fest.

B

Sure.

A

Oh, yeah, Pennsylvania Bacon Fest. There is a bacon eating contest followed by the annual race to the emergency room, which every year, one right after the other. It's amazing.

B

I suppose you could probably just throw that up, right?

A

I would think so. I would hope you would.

B

That's crazy.

A

It'll shoot out like the hot dog guys. And there's also a live DJ set by the Nightlighters. There's three guys standing there. Then there's also Garlic Fest.

B

Here we go.

A

Here we Go. Garlic Fest. We got the James Supra Band. We have. What is this? The Start Making Sense, which is a Talking Heads tribute band.

B

Nice.

A

The vendors that night. This is my favorite.

B

That's it.

A

No, there's more coming up. That's the preview night. Antonio's Pizzeria and Restaurant. Stinking beer tent. Everything is stinking because it's garlic. It's the stinking main stage. All that and my favorite. My favorite restaurant ever. You got Pork'd, which might be the greatest name for a restaurant that's ever existed. You got Porked. That's awesome.

B

Yeah. Fuck you with a ham bone.

A

Yeah. And I guess you got Porked follows the John McNutt Band, because they're there. Also Karen Kennedy and the All Star Friends Band. Okay. Little Rooster Blues Band. Galen Deary and the Reason why. Local Mutants. Okay. James Supra Blues Band. Strange Parade, the Unpronounceable, which is described as high tension hillbillies. Muse about life and death.

B

What does that mean?

A

What does that mean? That's how you advertise your show. High tension Hillbillies, Electricians. What's going on here? I don't get it at all.

B

Heart problems,

A

hypertension, Hillbillies. So there's that. There's a bunch of more shit. Exploratory bite. A couple other things. Who cares? Okay.

B

That sounds awesome. I mean, apart from the music, the food sounds great.

A

Well, yeah, they're a bunch of garlic shit.

B

I mean, Yeah.

A

I don't know if you like garlic.

B

Go to the fucking great.

A

The stinking main stage and do yourself up a little thing here that said, let's talk about some murder. What do you say here? Okay, let's go. Let's start out hot. June 15, 2000, Canal Park Museum, which is an abandoned museum at this point. This is off Route 611. Now, there's two young ladies here. Michelle Hetzel and Kir. I want to say Kerry, because that's how it's spelled, but it's pronounced kari. It's K, E, A, R, Y. That's Kari. E, A, E, A. It looks like Kyrie, but it's Carrie. So Michelle Hetzel and Carrie Renner, they're looking for their friend Devin. Another young lady. They're all in the 18, 19, 20. All these young ladies here, they're looking for their friend Devin, who has not been seen since last night. And there was some. We'll talk about it. Some weird stuff happened. And this Devin took off. And then no one has seen her since the middle of the night last Night. So they're all looking for her. She had Michelle. Michelle Hetzel had come over to Carrie's house where Devin lived with Carrie with some food, and said that, why don't we drive around Easton and maybe we'll find her car somewhere. It's not that big of a town. So they said, well, why don't we? Then Michelle made another suggestion. Why don't we check the Canal park, which is a spot by the old National Canal museum off Route 611. It's a place Michelle and Devin used to go together to hang out. It's a hot box or whatever you do there. Well, we'll find out. There's something with boxes. We'll find out for sure. And so they drove there and they find their friend Devin's gray car sitting in the parking lot.

B

She's here.

A

She's here. So then, apparently this is a quote from Carrie. I walked up to the car and I looked in and I didn't see her. So I'm like, michelle, she's not here. She's not in the car. And Michelle kind of gasped and put her hand over her mouth, and she's like, what do you mean she's not there? Which prompted me to look again, and I'm like, oh, she's sleeping in the backseat. I see her.

B

Oh, she is here.

A

She is there. She's in the back seat. So she didn't catch her at first. And Michelle was like, what do you mean she's not here? Like she somehow would know she was in the car. So Devin was in the back seat, covered with a green jacket, curled up in a fetal position. As you sleep in a car, I saw you sleep in a Honda Civic trunk in a similar fashion while I drove like a madman through the fucking Texas desert.

B

Through the desert.

A

Through the desert. So she's back there. Her back is to the front seat. So she's facing back, facing the rear.

B

Yeah.

A

Now she looks here. Carrie looks and sees that her lips and eyebrows are purple. Because this is like mid morning. It's like 11:30. So you can see in there. And she sees her lips and eyebrows are purple. So Carrie grabbed her jacket and shook her and said, baby, are you okay? And got no answer out of it. So then a city employee nearby, both ladies start screaming, and they're like sitting there freaked out, not knowing what to do. And a city employee heard the screaming and comes over. And he had already called, called 911. Apparently when he heard the screaming, he called 911, just, you know, play it Safe. So he gets over there and says, listen, the cops are on their way. Don't move your friend. Just stay where you are and let the cops handle this. Okay? Okay, so that's where we are now. Let's find out who has been deceased here.

B

What's going on?

A

This is Devin Neridia or Nerita Guzman. G U Z M A N D E V O N is Devon. She was born June 15, 1981. She's from Phillipsburg, New Jersey originally. She's got a dad named Ricardo who's a hell of a character who we'll talk about later. And her mother's name is Melody. She's got a brother named Derek who we'll also talk about later. Tight knit family, real close knit. And everybody gets along very close to her brother and her parents. Everybody describes her the same way. She's real happy and bubbly and has an imagination and life of the party. People always say, happy girl, real happy. She always was a tomboy. And then around 1996, when she's 15, she tells everyone that she's bi at this point and no one is surprised. There's a lot of kids that grow up and then you go, yeah, we knew that when you were seven. Of course you are, whatever. So she's bi though, she says. I don't think she does a complete. She doesn't say she's totally lesbian, she just says she's bi. And apparently Easton, Pennsylvania wasn't the most accepting place for that shit in the mid-90s. She said that it was a person close to her said it wasn't real acceptable around there. Now Carrie, her friend that we'll talk about, said everybody that came in contact with her loved her. She was just a normal high school girl. Now as this happened before she is found dead, she was working as a cleaner and living with her girlfriend Carrie at the Mineral Springs Hotel in Forks Township. They were living there together. Now Carrie, who we found earlier is Carrie ann renner. She's 20 years old and she is Devin's live in girlfriend and Dave's fiance. They're betrothed to each other here. Also a high school friend. She grew up with her in high school and that's where Michelle came from too. The three of them all knew each other in high school really well. So now the weird thing is Carrie is married at this time though she's living with a woman but married to a man who was away at boot camp for the army. Oh boy, oh boy. You think this, this is.

B

Does he know?

A

We don't know. That's gonna be fun later he's gonna find out, I'll tell you that much. So Carrie and Devin's relationship was known as passionate and fiery. A bit. There's been multiple Forks Township police visits to their hotel for physical domestic fights.

B

Really?

A

Two 19 year old girls had beaten the shit out of each other there. And we'll talk about another one of those. Now there is another woman here. Devin moved in with Carrie in October of 1999 after she broke up with someone else who she was living with. And that's Michelle, the one who found Devin with Carrie. Michelle's her ex girlfriend and the three

B

of them are all. Everybody knows everybody too much.

A

Yep. Now Carrie said she and it was 1999, they moved in and that was soon after Devin and Michelle broke off their relationship. But the problem is. We'll talk about it. Michelle is also married to a guy after this.

B

What in the fuck is going on you guys?

A

A guy named Brandon. And Carrie said that Brandon didn't like that Michelle was still seeing Devin even though Devin was in a relationship with a lady who was married to a guy in boot camp.

B

Even though there's three other people involved.

A

Does everybody have the strings and the board out to follow this? Because you really need a lot of

B

strings attached, my friend.

A

This is a Frank Pepe moment here where it's like a cigarette. No, it's here. And see this is the chart. Anyway, so Michelle here is Michelle May Hetzel. H E T Z E l. She's born 1982. She met Devin and Carrie in the Easton school system. The three of them were high school friends before any sort of romantic involvement. Now Michelle is known as both sweet and manipulative, depending on who you talk to. Okay, so some people say her sweetness is just manipulation and some people say no, she's sweet. And who knows?

B

Some people are being manipulated. Some people recognize they're being manipulated.

A

Totally. Totally. So Michelle, after she and Devin broke up, that's when Michelle got married to Brandon Bloss. B L O S S who's older than all of them. He's born in 1975. Oh, he's much older at this point. He's about 25 and Michelle's about 19. Now this guy doesn't fit into the mix at all. He's a college kid and a dork. He's a real qu. Reserved guy who has a degree in chemistry.

B

A guy you can manipulate.

A

Yeah. A guy who if he sees a wild chick. You ever seen a romantic comedy when the wild Chick drags the dorky guy all around the country and he just can't get enough of it. Yeah, he just can't get enough of it because he might get a blowjob someday. That's Brandon. It seems like.

B

Oh, Brandon.

A

A cop later said Brandon was a very quiet individual. He appeared very intelligent. No criminal history. He was a college educated person. He had a degree in chemistry. He's a very bright guy.

B

Wow.

A

But Michelle and Devin, even while Michelle is married to Brandon and Devin is living with Carrie who's married to another guy, Michelle and Devin are still fucking around. They've still been having a little ongoing side affair. Side side affair. I guess it would be because the one's a side affair and it's a side affair.

B

It's way on the side.

A

It's a lot. So Brendan knows about this. That's how meek he is is that she fucking tells him about it and there's nothing he can really do about it. Although he's pissed about it. He doesn't like it.

B

Obviously he doesn't like it.

A

He's not a big fan of it. They don't invite him or anything. So he's not a big fan of it.

B

Don't even let him watch.

A

No. And the other thing that he's pissed about, and this is understandable, Michelle is spending Brandon's money on Devin as well.

B

That's a problem.

A

Yeah. She takes. Later on, and we'll talk about this very soon here, she takes Devin on a romantic vacation to the Caribbean for Christ's sa on Devin just spending his money. They're not going to Chili's, they're going to Puerto rico and like St. Thomas and shit on his credit card.

B

Oh my God.

A

Yeah, they're taking it to a vacation. Who wouldn't?

B

So I don't care the gender of the person that you're taking in fucking there. You're taking someone on my dime and fucking them in another in a who cares territory.

A

I don't care what you're putting in your mouth. That's irrelevant to this.

B

Ah, I'm financing it. Fuck.

A

That's it. So he had been contemplating divorce, but at some point he and Michelle had a talk and he was telling people that he had faith that Michelle was going to, quote, change and be a real wife for him.

B

What makes him think that?

A

I have no idea. What makes him think that someone's going to change to the point where they'll say that that sexual thing that I have my sexual preference or whatever it is,

B

it's going to become less hot right now.

A

Yeah, you know what? Tits don't do it for me anymore. If you like tits, you like tits.

B

You're going to like them for life.

A

You're going to like them for a long time. I have no plans of stopping liking tits anytime soon. I don't. Boobs acid. I have no plans. I'm locked into that for the foreseeable future.

B

I'm on the same page as Michelle. I will forever enjoy.

A

I love it. So January 2000, there was trouble amongst the ladies here. Yeah, there was. This is. This is a quote here from. Okay, here, quote. This was a very rocky love hate relationship. Michelle Hetzel in January 2000, filed criminal charges at a district justice office saying she was harassed by Devin.

B

Okay.

A

Okay. So as of January 2000, she's filing complaints about harassment from Devin, doesn't want her around. But by Late May of 2000, Michelle and Devin are going to the islands on Brandon's credit card. I don't know.

B

Stay away from me. You're harassing me. Also, I got this plane ticket for you. Michelle bought it?

A

Yeah, she bought it. With the credit card. With his credit card. So they head for the islands. They go on a trip here. We know they were in Puerto Rico, but several sources say they were also in the US Virgin Islands as well.

B

Wow.

A

So we know Puerto Rico for a fact because they made a phone call from Puerto Rico. Either way, big time romantic getaway. I mean, really?

B

Summertime in the Caribbean. Yeah.

A

And on that trip they got. Not officially, not legally, but they had a ceremony. They had a civil ceremony to marry each other. Okay, so it's not technically polygamy because it's not a legally binding wedding.

B

It's just an island wedding.

A

It's an island wedding. That doesn't count legally. At the time, they exchanged rings. Michelle bought three rings, matching bands for herself and Devin and then a separate diamond ring for Devin as well. Like an engagement ring?

B

Yeah.

A

So they called Devin's father Rick from the island and told him that they got married. So that's from Puerto Rico.

B

Dipshits are already married.

A

Yeah. Hey, dummies. Your girlfriend's married and the other ones are still. What are you doing? You only like married chicks, Devin. What's wrong with you? Is what the dad's saying. But they called, they told him that, and they asked if they could live with him when they got back because obviously they're both in other situations. So they get back home and none of that happens. They don't live together. Things kind of go to shit from there. Devin immediately, almost after getting back, even after getting married unofficially or whatever and saying they want to move into her dad's house when she gets back. Devin starts telling Carrie that she wants to get out of Easton and move to Mesa, Arizona.

B

No, you don't.

A

No, you don't. God, I know. Especially, I hope you've been there in July or anytime. Mesa's horrible. Even if it's 73 degrees outside, it's a horrible fucking place. Mesa.

B

Fuck the weather.

A

The worst.

B

You're gonna move as a lesbian couple

A

that are married to the Mormon Tabernacle, the Mormonist Mormon town outside of Salt Lake City, Arizona. Yeah, outside of Salt Lake City and where FLDS runs everything. Outside of those two places, Colorado City

B

and Salt Lake, you're gonna move to the worst. You're gonna hate your neighbors. Cause they're gonna hate you.

A

They're gonna hate you. All right. They even applied for a gas card to fund the drive so they could put it on a credit card.

B

They're planning on doing it.

A

They're doing it. So, yeah. Michelle, though, is obsessive about Devin as well and super mad that Devin bounced back toward Carrie. So this is a mess is what this is. A huge mess.

B

Love triangle of chicks that are already married.

A

That are already married. An investigator said Michelle was definitely obsessed with Devin. She would get very upse upset and angry when Devin would bounce back and forth between her and Carrie, which anybody would. Now Brandon and Carrie both find out about what happened down there. Carrie said, I was told they exchanged rings. I think it was just kind of teenagers saying, like, I vow to be with you kind of thing. That's what Carrie said. Kind of underplaying it. June 14, 2000. So they've been back from the islands. They've done all that over at Rick Guzman's house, Devin's father's house here. Father and his girlfriend. So Devin and Michelle are drinking at the house, along with Rick and Rick's girlfriend and Rick's sister. So five people hanging out, drinking. They start to argue, Devin and Michelle, because Michelle's upset that Devin hasn't moved out of Carrie's place and isn't planning on doing so anytime soon. So she's pissed. So they're fighting and they end up the girlfriend. Dad's girlfriend said they ended up leaving in separate cars. The ladies were pissed off. So later that night at Carrie and Devin's apartment, Devin gets home to Carrie and says she tells her that Michelle proposed to her and that Devin broke it off and gave the Rings back. Okay, so she tells her that. Then I said no. Now Carrie can tell Devin's been drinking. And that starts a fight, not only about the rings, but the fact that she's been drinking and just drove home and all that. So. Wow. Apparently Carrie had, you know, during all this thing here, she said that earlier in the night when Devin said she was going to her dad's house, she promised that. That Michelle wouldn't be there, but she was there. So Carrie said that Devin was drunk when she came back to the house that they shared. And after Devin said her relationship with Michelle was over, Carrie grabbed a bottle of vodka and put it to Guzman's lips and told her to drink more. Here. Drink more. I don't know why that happened.

B

You like drinking? Smoke the whole carton. Yep.

A

Go in the closet, you smoke a whole goddamn carton. So the two of them get in a fight now with Devin hitting Renner in the back of the head with the bottle of vodka.

B

Oh my God.

A

We're talking like a half full bottle of vodka. Too heavy. You know, empty.

B

That fucking thing is dangerous.

A

But heavy, it's even worse. So that hits her in the head. And each women's. Each of the women slapped each other back and forth a few times too. So then Devin got a page from. She gets a page. We're talking. This is the 99, this is 2000. So she gets a page from Brandon and Michelle's number and calls there. Okay, that's what goes on here. This is a series of pages. Devin calls back and gets ahold of brandon. This is 11 to 11:30pm on June 14th. Devin gets a hold of Brandon, calls back the number and Brandon answers. So Carrie is right there and can hear through the phone what's going on. Brandon's talking to Devin and Michelle is screaming in the background. So it's a real pleasant night at both households.

B

Yeah.

A

After the call, Devin tells Carrie that Michelle is sick and needs her okay. Even though she's got a husband sitting right there who's versed in chemistry. He's got this. It's fine. So around 11:30, both of them, Carrie and Devin drive over to Michelle and Brandon's house on West Joseph Street. Yeah. Carrie stays in the car, Devin goes to the door, Brandon answers. And Brandon tells her that Carrie has to leave even though she's only in the driveway because Michelle doesn't want her there. In the driveway.

B

Oh my God.

A

So Devin comes back to the car all pissed off about God knows what. Cause she's hammered, so who knows A neighbor watching sees her bang her fist on the hood of the car and say that she's taking Carrie home. Like I'm taking you home. Banging on the face. Okay. So Devin drops Carrie off a little after 11:30, telling her there's nothing to worry about and she'll be back soon. Carrie said she wanted to walk me up the stairs. She went to give me a kiss, so I turned my head because I was mad. So she kissed my cheek and she told me she loved me. And I was like, whatever. And I walked up the stairs.

B

God, they love drama.

A

This is a lot of drama.

B

These three love conflicts.

A

They fucking dig it, man. They're teenage, dude. Teenage girls. No matter. Even if there's no love involved, if you just put three teenage girls who hang out together, they'll fudge. She said this about me and she's a bitch. And this.

B

They can't just have a nice day?

A

No, it's hard.

B

There's no nice days to be had.

A

It's hard. These are my daughters.

B

Yes.

A

I was gonna say this is from two men who have daughters. And mine's older than teenager now. And Jimmy's going through the teenage years now. So we are 15. She's two up over here.

B

One of them was from out of town. The other one is from the other side of town. Three of them hanging out in my house.

A

Can't do it for 20 minutes.

B

Smiles. The rest of the day they're in different portions of my house.

A

Yes.

B

I just walk into a room. There's a teenage girl there. No, no, go with the other one.

A

Texting other people about these two. Yeah.

B

No smiles to be had.

A

No. It's a nightmare.

B

They all hate each other secretly.

A

Oh, my God. So June 15th to now. Add, like, relationships and sex into that. Imagine what it would be. This is just crazy.

B

Three years and hormones of being horny for each other. Now it's crazy.

A

Now it's real crazy. June 15, 12:45am so this is the same night now. We're past midnight. This is just an hour over. After Devin left, Carrie's phone rings and it's Michelle. And Michelle says, where's Devin? She never showed up at my house. It's been over an hour now. So this is why they get worried. So at 2:30am Now, a couple hours later, Michelle shows up at Carrie and Devin's place with Brandon waiting in the car. She's insistent that they report Devin missing. And Carrie doesn't want to because Carrie's like. She's out drinking. Maybe she pulled over and just sleeping it off somewhere. I don't want to get her arrested. And is this a good idea?

B

Yeah, she's drunk. She may have gotten arrested.

A

She also might have wrapped her car around a telephone pole. So who knows? Here. So Devin, they said she tells her, Devin's taken off before she always comes home. There's no point in calling anybody. Michelle says, no, no, no, we have to. So this is Carrie's account. She said Michelle sees that Devin's not there and she's paranoid and she's worried and she wants to meet a reporter missing. She said she didn't want to initially call 911, but Michelle was insistent. So around 3am, Carrie calls the Forks Township police. Now, Brandon went home because he has to work in the morning. And Michelle and Carrie drive around looking for Devin. They call off the search around 6am to rest. Cause they've both been up all night. They said they would resume later. So Michelle leaves around 6.30am Few hours later, Michelle comes back to Carrie's with food. Now. Yeah, stopped, got some food. And she said, why don't we drive around Easton and look for the car. Michelle and Carrie hate each other, by the way.

B

Right.

A

So now they're working as a team

B

and bringing food, breakfast cater.

A

And this is when Michelle suggests, why don't we check Canal Park? Where? By the old museum there. And that's when they walked up. They see her in the car. And we come to the beginning of the show where she was in the car in a fetal position. And a city worker comes and they said her lips and eyebrows were purple. So the first officers come and the two women are on a low stone wall, sitting and crying and hysterical and pointing at the car, saying that's where to go. Now, when the 911 call comes in, it's reported as a possible overdose or suicide because there is a syringe tucked into her waistband with no cap on it. That's very important. So the coroner arrives and checks for a pulse and doesn't find anything. Pulls up the green jacket and we see that it's absolutely not a suicide by any stretch of the imagination. Here. This is 1:13pm now, the coroner says that she probably died up to 12 hours before he arrived anywhere in that window. He said more than one person was involved in this too. Oh, because you can tell by the dragging. Because dragging Guzman's body. They said she had not been killed in the car. And we'll tell you how we know that for sure. But they said because there's very little Blood. And her wounds would definitely make blood. Make blood. So the body was dragged, leaving no dirt on her back, but marks on the buttocks and some dirt on the leg of her pants, meaning people carried her head and feet. And her bottom was dragging a little bit because you'd sag down if you don't stiffen yourself up. Also says the coroner says the car is a staged scene and that the knife found in Devin's hand was placed there. They can tell very easily by rigor whether something was placed in your hand later or not. That's a big thing. They always say with guns. When someone tries to place a gun, it looks like you put a gun in a GI Joe figure's hand. Like it doesn't look right to them. They can tell immediately. So he said a small syringe found on the body contains an unidentified substance and probably played no role in her death. Her death is ruled a homicide by asphyxiation and severe neck injury. And we'll find out what those are. He found a 4 inch laceration across her throat that went almost all the way back to her spine and still was.

B

Oh, so she drowned. Is that what they're saying?

A

Her throat was completely cut. Severed her tongue. Oh, my. Cut the right carotid artery and right jugular vein clean in half.

B

Not nickel upper against the chin.

A

Almost cut her head completely off.

B

Yeah.

A

This is a wound that would produce an insane amount of blood. The most blood. And there's hardly any blood in the car. Like nothing. So they're like, it definitely didn't happen in the car. And someone must have helped carry her. So two people did this. The investigator said someone was trying to lead investigators to believe that this was a self inflicted wound, but it was an amateurish attempt. It appears that the people that were staging this really didn't know what they were doing.

B

Amateurish. It's real bad.

A

This is definite fucking amateur hour. And they tried to make it look like a suicide, but how the fuck do you cut your own throat back to your spine and then cover yourself with a jacket that's never happened and snuggle in? Yeah. So police talk to Michelle and they talked to Carrie, obviously, because they're the two that were there that found her. So they're going to talk to them first. First they describe Michelle. They talked to her first they describe her. One of them said, a meek and mild young girl. She told police that she and Devin had been together back in high school, but that was all in the past. And she's married now and happy with her husband and just old friends with Devin. So she lies. She was soft spoken. She said, yeah, it's over. And she did say, though, that Carrie's the one you need to look at. She's got a temper. She's got a temper. She said Michelle emphasized how jealous Carrie got and how volatile the relationship was and how there'd been a fight that very night. They got in a physical altercation. She wanted police to, you know, you should really, when you talk to Carrie, really have your guards up, you know. So they go talk to Carrie down the hall and she tells a completely different story. Completely different. She said, yeah, I was the last to see Devin that night, and I was angry and we did get in a fight. Yeah. So at this point, they both look pretty. Equally guilty, culpable. It almost looks like they did it together. Michelle and Devin or Michelle and Karen. So the police are very confused. One thing, though, she does not tell the police. Oh, I'm sorry. She does tell the police, but Michelle had not told the police, is that Michelle and Devin were still together, actively having sex and shit. And Michelle was the one who was obsessive and possessive, not me. That's what she says. She said that Michelle and Devin had just come back from a romantic trip where they'd exchanged rings. So now the detectives have two absolute polar opposite stories. The timeline's all the same, but outside of that, everything else is different. How the relationships are, the dynamics between them, totally different. So then they have to figure it out of who did this. I mean, the girlfriend who got in a physical fight that night with her and got whacked in the head with a bottle of vodka is a pretty good suspect.

B

That's the first one they talk about. Yeah.

A

And then the other lady is also a pretty good suspect who's cheating on her husband, banging her. It's a totally different thing. So they have Devin's funeral. The night before the funeral, Devin's brother Derek goes up to Carrie, and this is Devin's family. Said he said, you see these eyes? These are my sister's eyes, too. You look at me and tell me you didn't kill her. And she said, I swear to God, I didn't hurt her. I didn't kill her.

B

Look in my eyes.

A

Look in my eyes. Tell me that shit. Yeah. So six days after the murder, police set up surveillance on Brendan and Michelle. Brandon and Michelle, they believe they're the ones to look at more than. Carrie is very cooperative with the police this entire time. More cooperative than these two.

B

Chemistry man and Michelle, though, that's who

A

they're gonna look at. Just because they don't have any other ideas. So they have no evidence or no way to get a search warrant or anything like that. So basically they just sit and sit on their house and wait for them to throw garbage out and then they take the garbage and look through it. That's what they're doing. So the detective is doing these trash pulls. He said they kept doing it once a week for about a month. And they kept finding bandages in there, gauze pads that were used over a wound with blood on them. One of them, they kept seeing a pattern of a bite mark in blood on there.

B

Oh, on the.

A

On the gauze. You put it on your arm and. Yeah, that's that thing. So that actually is enough to get them a search warrant somehow. Must have been a very judge in a very good mood. Real good mood. So inside the house, this is a month afterwards, mind you. They go in and the first thing they find is a pair of Michelle's jeans soaking alone in the washing machine in a tub of soapy water with nothing else in it. A test on the water came back positive for blood. And in the pocket of those jeans was a syringe cap that matched perfectly. The capless syringe found in Devin's waistband.

B

They kept it.

A

They kept that. So they also found blood residue in the backyard and on a garden hose consistent with someone trying to wash off blood off themselves. They also have a seizure of computers, airline receipts, a pool cover, even a fence picket. I don't know what they're taking there. They also took diamond rings and other things from the house of Michelle's parents and Michelle's room at that home. So police impound their car. These searches took place on August 29th, by the way. So time has gone by. This was June 14th, 15th, this happened. Police impound Brandon and Michelle's car. In the trunk of the car they find two pairs of rubber gloves, Brandon's T shirt and a pair of jeans, both stained with blood that's consistent with Devin's.

B

Six weeks later, they hung onto this.

A

They hung. That's right. They still had the jeans. Soaking in a washing machine burning. These fucking jeans. What is wrong with you? How great.

B

American eagle. They fit so comfy.

A

Now I get. You get a pair of jeans. Makes your ass look right. You hang on to them.

B

But come on, you gotta keep that pair.

A

His sweatshirt, socks and sneakers, all showing indications of human blood.

B

Yeah. How about if you're gonna do. You don't wear your Good clothes for that.

A

Nope. Extra large bloody sweatshirt that belongs to him. Oh, and on the green jacket that was over Devin's body, there's hairs consistent with Michelle, which, you know, whatever.

B

Michelle?

A

Yeah. In the car though, there's hairs consistent with Brandon.

B

Uh. Oh.

A

Why would Brandon's hairs be in her car? Unless they somehow fell off of Michelle when they went from here to here. So there's some secondary transfer possibility there. But that's not, that's not a casket sealer there. Coffin sealer. So police talk to Brandon, they bring him in, he's quiet. They ask him about his wife's affair with Devin. And he admitted that. Yeah, that happens. And it makes him uncomfortable. He admitted, yes, they did go on an island trip on his credit card. And that did piss him off pretty good.

B

It's expensive.

A

Yeah, it's a little pricey. But he insisted that neither of us, myself nor Michelle had anything to do with Devin's death. That's crazy. Crazy. So they said. This is an interesting thing. They Talked to Devin June 15, the day of the murder. Because he came to talk with Michelle, to be with Michelle at the station. They talked with him and that day he was wearing a long sleeve T shirt, which is odd in eastern Pennsylvania in mid June. What's with all that coat, man? It's June.

B

Why are you so cold, man?

A

Philip, come on, man. What's with all this coat? That was JUDO. This was June 15th, was the first. That was when the murder happened. This is the first time they had talked to him. He had a long sleeve shirt on that day, which they just dismissed because there's a lot of other shit going on. But when they finally get a warrant to photograph him, they find on his left forearm he's got a bite mark. Healing.

B

Uh.

A

Oh yeah. His explanation was that night that there was going on, Devin not only fought with Carrie, but got in a physical fight with Michelle. And he got in the middle of it and got bit by it. That's what he said. Or he got bit by somebody. Everybody's real wily. Yeah, it's like having four badgers in there with these two chicks fighting. So they sent the photos and dental impressions to a forensic odontologist and we'll talk about that later. So Michelle and Brandon, they just carry on before all this is going on? Yeah. Between these interviews and the murder, you know, Michelle announced to family and friends that she was pregnant with twins.

B

Oh, what?

A

Not true at all. She's not pregnant. There's no twins. She just made it up and Told people.

B

Why did she do that?

A

Oh, who knows? She's manipulative. Like we said, she's an interesting gal. And they went on a vacation to Mexico together.

B

She loves traveling.

A

She loves going hot places where everybody speaks Spanish.

B

That's her favorite for a young girl.

A

Loves it.

B

Wow.

A

Well, I mean, maybe it's legal drinking age. You can go down there and get hat.

B

Probably. Yeah.

A

So then the neighbor witness comes forward. This is Joseph Welsh, who lives across the street from Brendan and Michelle. And said the cop, the couple often argued. On June 14, he heard the couple and looked out and Hetzel was lying on the sidewalk yelling, quote, what the fuck do you want me to do to him? To Brandon while she's lying on the sidewalk? He heard a commotion at the same home about 12:30am on June 15 and saw Devin on the porch and heard Brandon say something like, you're not going to Michelle. Moments later, Devin walked to the hood of her car, pounded on the hood and told the person inside the car, who the neighbor couldn't see, that she was taking the passenger home. Okay. Then a very big piece of evidence falls. George vine comes forward.

B

Who's he?

A

He's a guy who, about three months before Devin was killed, he's a friend of Michelle's. Michelle went to him and offered him either sex or money, whichever you're more into. It's a currency to, quote, get rid of Devin. Yeah, because this was after she had filed harassment charges and shit and before they went on vacation and said they were married. So. Yeah, he said he didn't take her seriously and figured she was just drunk and pissed off and venting. So he didn't take her seriously, didn't call the cops. But then when Devin turned up dead, he was like, oh, shit, I better call the cops before I get blamed for this. So, yeah. And a separate acquaintance said that as early as February 2000, Michelle had described the relationship as love, hate, and it expressed a wish for Devin to be dead. Okay, another witness here. Oh, no, that's okay. Deleted pages they find also from the pager, deleted beeper conversations. Records seized from Michelle and Brandon's house show numerous calls going out to Devin's pager that night, repeated pages right up until the time she dropped Carrie off. Every single one of those pages was erased from the pager before police recovered it. So that shows some consciousness of guilt there, if you're erasing shit. So they said, what's the motive here? Maybe that she's obsessed and rejected and, yeah, she tried to hire somebody that didn't work. And who knows? One investigator said, if I can't have her, no one's going to have her. And probably went to Brandon and said, look, if you help me do this, this will save our marriage. That's what we think the motive was. Okay, so one investigator said, there's no question that Michelle Hetzel manipulates people. She's a pathological liar. So they're arrested in August here after the searches and everything.

B

Brandon and Michelle.

A

Brandon and Michelle are arrested after they find her blood on things and all of that. They're each charged with first degree murder and criminal conspiracy to commit homicide.

B

Not bad.

A

Not good. They're deciding whether to go for the death penalty on them. So it's not good. They eventually decide not to do that to go for life. They're both charged with this. The judge approves a defense request for a psychological evaluation of Michelle because holy shit, this sounds crazy. So let's check, let's make sure. Yeah, let's look under the hood here. Kick the tires, hit the tires with the old Ozark thumper. See how they're doing there. So by the way, people, we reviewed everybody out there, we reviewed an Ozark thumper on your stupid opinion. So check that out this week. It's out right now. So August 2001 here, the next year. So they sit in jail for a year. Brandon's defense attorney had hired a forensic odontologist, Dr. Dennis Azan, to examine and photograph the wound there. So police. Police later seized the photographs and tracings by warrant and handed them to a second odontologist who was the one for the state. Devin's body is then exhumed in August of 2001 to take dental impressions.

B

Oh.

A

So the state's odontologist concludes that the bite mark was not consistent with Michelle Carey or Brandon, but was a reasonable degree of certainty was most consistent with Devin's teeth out of the whole crew here. So they've completely. That's a complete.

B

Marks are weird.

A

Yeah, it's a complete horseshit, pseudoscience, bullshit thing to do is what it is. They found it for years and years. It was like, this is as good as DNA. Unless they figured out it's all bullshit.

B

Yeah, it's all bullshit.

A

Yeah, total bullshit. So. So they said Brandon's right handed. If he came up from behind her and put her in a chokehold position, it would have been the spot where she would have bit him. Forearm, right like that. The bite mark to Brandon's arm would suggest that Devin put up a Fight, Devin. Seems like she'd put up a fight. She just clocked a chick with.

B

Doesn't seem like she's going quietly into the night.

A

No, no. She clocked a chick with a vodka bottle two fucking hours ago. You don't think she's putting up a fight now? So, Michelle, before trial. So she wants Carrie's inconclusive polygraph examination to be included in this. To be admitted, which they're never admitted into court polygraphs. But she just wants to put out in the public that Carrie had an inconclusive polygraph test. Apparently, this test was taken place on July 3rd of 2000. They say that in the documents attached, they say that Renner was involved. This is Carrie in a relationship. And lived with Karl Guzman. And is one of the last people to know to see her alive. At the examination, the report said that Carrie continued to deny any involvement in the victim's death. And questions about the incident were developed for use during the polygraph. He said, using a standardized scoring method. I was unable to render an opinion about her truthfulness when she answered the test questions. So, yeah, she told the same story, and it was inconclusive. So we don't know. Now, Michelle also wants her case severed from Brandon as well. She wants to be tried separately. Because she said she was never notified that her and her husband would go to trial together. Because consolidation would severely prejudice her from receiving a fair trial. And because a joint trial could keep her from presenting evidence that could be precluded. Because of spousal immunity and privilege.

B

So she wants to blame him.

A

Basically. She wants her own trial where he can be this boogeyman. Not some quiet chemist sitting next to her.

B

And if we're. If we're in it together, then because we're married, I can't say that guy probably did it.

A

Exactly. So if we go the other direction, I can just throw him. He's this boogeyman, you know? So, yeah, they said she also is concerned that her defense could be jeopardized. Because Brandon has hired Florida attorneys. Who have a lack of familiarity with the substantive law and procedure in Pennsylvania. She also said that the trial should be moved to another county because of media coverage. She also says because DNA evidence will play a large role. She wants to be given money for experts. There is some drama at one of the hearings. Okay, this is Rick Guzman, Ricardo Guzman, Devin's father. This is a crowd of about 50 people in court here. Out of nowhere, apparently. Well, he's going to be restrained and removed from the court. After moving toward the Defendants and shouting at them, quote, I got a pair of pliers and a blowtorch, man. I'm going to kill you. As he went toward them.

B

Where in your pocket, Rick.

A

Jesus. Marsellus Wallace over here fucking looking for vengeance.

B

I'm gonna get medieval on both of you.

A

Yeah. He pop out of a bowl of rice in Indochina. I want a motherfucker there to put a cap in his ass. That's what's going on here.

B

Yeah.

A

Wow. Pair of pliers and a broke float torch. Man, I'm gonna kill you. So they had to remove him. And he didn't regret it.

B

And he's right.

A

Sure, why not? By the time the trial is here, the marriage is over and they're divorced.

B

Oh, really?

A

Brandon and Michelle.

B

Oh, that's great. She can do what she wants now.

A

Yeah. The jury selection starts in 2001 for the trial. All ready to go on the morning of September 11, 2001.

B

Flea bargain.

A

No, the trial is ready to start on the morning, September 11, 2001. They sit down, get ready to start doing jury selection. And then they have to evacuate the courthouse. Everybody has to do an hour and a half away. And the country shows and the country shut down for the next fucking six months.

B

Yeah.

A

Oh, man. Now, that's crazy. Michelle's team continues to press to get the trial moved. Saying that the local media leaned hard into the lesbian love triangle aspect of the whole thing. That's what the whole thing is. How do you not lean into that? And she said it poisoned the jury pool. Now, two jurors were removed from the panel because. Noting that all the jurors who had seen coverage. They were the only two who had fixed opinions, and they were both dismissed. The first was a real estate agent and said that Hetzel's sister is a client. So they were dismissed. And the second says he knows a potential witness. So the jury is made up of eight women and four men. At the end. Opening arguments start two weeks later, September 25, 2001. In the openings, the prosecutors lay out exactly what they said happened. Takes two people. How'd she know to go look there? I mean, it looks pretty bad for Michelle.

B

And she was shocked when nobody was in the car.

A

What do you mean?

B

I left somebody in the car.

A

What are you talking about? Somebody kidnapped the dead person I left in here.

B

Look harder.

A

Yeah, keep looking. So the defense, though, they say a different story. Yeah, they say that Hetzel, Michelle Guzman, they're in love. And that Michelle would have done her no harm. She loved her. Yeah, she said all that evidence they talk about, blood and hairs and all that quote proves absolutely nothing. He said Michelle didn't do it. Don't accept things at face value. Don't accept obvious things at face value.

B

She soaked her jeans for six months.

A

Goddamn month and a half.

B

Six weeks. I mean, yeah.

A

Carrie and Devin, he said, often fought. And at the time, Devin had to go to the hospital because she was cut during an altercation. One time, Michelle loved Guzman and said that Guzman was Michelle's best friend, only friend, her lover. When she drove to the canal and saw her car, she said she told Renner, I could kill her. She also said that Devin had written a note to Carrie saying she was leaving because the two needed time apart. And then Blas's attorney said that Michelle slit Devin's throat. So Michelle's attorney says Carrie did it, and Brandon's attorney says Michelle did it. Yeah, with a knife. She confessed to another woman named Kara Judd, who we'll talk about. She's a witness. The killing came after Devin and Michelle were fighting in Michelle's house. Devin stepped in to try to protect his wife. And he and Guzman fell to the floor where Guzman bit him on the left forearm.

B

Got it.

A

He said that despite Michelle's attempts to have Devin move out of Carrie's house, Carrie and Guzman talked about moving away and going to Arizona. So he said that as Brandon tended to his wound, Michelle and Guzman went into the garage, which is detached from the home at the end of the property. What is it? Are we going to meet there to rumble? What are we talking about?

B

They got a detached garage.

A

Not bad, he said. Hetzel, he said, so Michelle, he said, was carrying a knife. And he said the next thing he knew, or the next thing she knew, Devin's head was in her lap and she wasn't breathing. Michelle looked at her lawyer and laughed as Brandon's lawyer gave this. Not good. So this guy, Brandon's lawyer, said that Brandon walked into the garage and saw what had happened and helped his wife put Devin's body into the car and drove it to the park, moving the body. That's how he got Guzman's blood on his clothes. Just from helping her. He said, quote, after you hear this unique story, you will understand that Brandon Bloss did not kill Devin Guzman and didn't conspire to kill Devin Guzman. After you hear this unique story, I

B

usually call that a lie.

A

That's what it is, he said. Michelle, in addition to her affair with Devin, had once been lovers with Carrie, too.

B

Right.

A

We didn't Know that till then, Michelle Hetzel and Kari Renner used to live together. It just got. It went from a triangle that just closed a circle. It's a complete circle.

B

It's just an oval.

A

It's just a fucking. Could go on forever. So one witness, Kara Judd, comes in and she has a diary. She dated one of Brandon's sisters, she said. Testifies that Michelle confessed the whole thing to her and that Kara Judd had a diary and wrote it down at the time and has the diary still.

B

Shit.

A

Michelle, according to Kara Judd, was enraged that Devin had brought Carrie to the house that night. And when Devin came back alone, the two women fought inside. Devin bit Brandon when he stepped in on Michelle's behalf. Michelle grabbed a knife and quote. The next thing she knew, there was blood everywhere. Michelle described soaking her jeans in the washer and said Brandon had hosed down the garage. So this all lines up with what Michelle told this woman. All the evidence lines up with that. Michelle testifies.

B

Really?

A

And later, she's gonna admit parts of Judd's diary were accurate, but insisted the confession part was made up.

B

Well, why would she write that?

A

And who knows?

B

Why would that be true? But that's not true. That means all of it's true.

A

Some of it's true. She has no fucking horse in this race.

B

No reference for any of this.

A

Now, in August 2005, later on, there's apparently an article in the Express Times indicated Judd later admitted an unrelated theft. She had a theft thing. So the defense wants appeals based on the fact that she shoplifted a Twix bar.

B

Now she steals shit.

A

Now it's. Yeah. Then they bring in George vine, and he says, he tried to hire me. She said Michelle asked him to, quote, kill Guzman, knock her off, get rid of the body.

B

And we were gonna fuck about it.

A

Yeah, we were gonna fuck. He said she was just fed up with the arguments. Maybe she wanted to start up a life with Brandon. I don't know how to answer that. He said, when they said, why did she want this?

B

It's so easy to just do that.

A

Yeah. Carrie talks about everything she said before. She said hours before Devin was killed, Brandon told her that he was not about to give his wife to a lesbian relationship with Guzman. I'm not giving my wife away here. She talks about going everywhere. She talks about finding the body and the. What do you mean it's not in there?

B

They put it right there.

A

Yeah, she said as they cried. Michelle cried as Carrie testified that she thought Devin was alive and wanted to take her to the hospital. But a city worker nearby said he already called the police. So now we get to the defense and there is different defenses because they have different needs and wants. Michelle and Brandon, their things are not, not sympathomic.

B

Two different ways to get innocent here.

A

Brandon presents no evidence at all, no defense, no witnesses. He doesn't testify. Michelle put on witnesses, including her own mother, who testified that Brandon had confessed to her that he killed Devin. And then Michelle took the stand herself, swore she had nothing to do with it. And she said she believed Brandon did it alone. So, yeah, the defense theory is that on Michelle's side, as Brandon acted alone out of jealousy and rage because Michelle had been hooking up with Devin. So the prosecution said, well, someone had to drive Devin's car to the canal and someone had to drive the getaway car back right away. That's two people. Never mind.

B

If you did it, then you're in it.

A

That's it. If he did it, so did you. And Michelle lied about nearly everything else. So what do you want here? The neighbor also testifies that Devin came to the house once but was turned away and never came back. Oh, he's the guy who lived across the street. Oh, that's Michelle. That's what Michelle said. But the guy across the street said, no, no, no. He said, no. She left and then she came back.

B

He saw her come back.

A

He was awoken by shouting at 12:35am he saw a woman with her back to him being told by two people inside the house that she couldn't come in. And then watched the fifth banging and all that. Then a little later saw Devin's car come back again. They tried to say she didn't come back. Now the verdict. The jury deliberates into the night. The judge asked them, do you want to go home and start in the morning or do you want to just press through? And they said, let's fucking do it. Let's press through. So they deliberate past midnight.

B

Wow.

A

They let them go. The jurors were given a chance to go home or stay. And they all voted to stay, to go on, to keep going. So just after midnight, they come back with a verdict. By the way, Michelle complains that they were allowed to keep going and they should have been stopped.

B

And that's illegal?

A

Yeah, that's illegal for some reason. So just after midnight they come back with verdicts. And here we go. First off, conspiracy to commit murder. Not guilty. Both of them.

B

No conspiracy. We didn't prove that.

A

No conspiracy. Then first degree murder. Both of them. Guilty.

B

Yeah.

A

Guilty.

B

They did it.

A

They were acquitted of the conspiracy charge, which Michelle's lawyers will try to leverage later, arguing you can't convict them as a team of murder while clearing them of conspiracy. But the court said that the commonwealth said that they never had to name who did the actual stabbing, only that they acted together with intent and evidence. The evidence did that. So then it's first degree. So sentencing comes around, they're each gonna get the same sentence. So that's nice. That's equal treatment here.

B

Sure.

A

You, sir and ma', am, you married couple may fuck off. Life without parole.

B

Son of a bitch.

A

Yeah, and she was barely 19 when this happened. So she's like she's 20, getting life without.

B

He's only six years older, but that's harder than 19.

A

19 is.

B

Wow, that's so young.

A

2003, Ricardo and Melody Guzman, Devin's parents, file a complaint in the court seeking unspecified damages from Michelle and Brandon. They're suing them in the lawsuit for something. They say that Michelle asphyxiated Devin and cut her throat or assisted arrested Brandon in the commission of the crime. And says that Blas either committed the murder or helped Michelle. And claims that they were both negligent to prevent one another from inflicting physical harm to Devin Guzman. And it also claims wrongful death and seeks punitive damages. Michelle appeals. There's some appeals here. They found one of them here. The seizure of the defendant bite mark photos was technically a violation of the attorney work product doctrine, which is a real legal error, by the way. But it was ruled harmless by the court because all of the other evidence, the blood, the hair, the neighbor, the trunk, this one error soaked for six weeks. Yeah, one error would not have swayed the jury here. And it rejected. She had 11 claims, including. They didn't change the venue, they didn't sever the cases. They reject all of them. And when they affirmed both convictions. 2009 Federal District Court Michelle files a habeas petition. The judge here rejects her claims of ineffective assistance of counsel, improper venue, wrongful failure to sever, and the mid trial dismissal of a jury, but issued a narrow certificate of appealability on the venue question, essentially saying reasonable judges could disagree about whether the quote, quote, lesbian love triangle publicity warranted moving the trial. 2010 in the Third Circuit U.S. court of Appeals affirm her conviction. Again, they said there were 72 articles on the case, but only 24 after January 1, 2001, which is 10 months before the trial. They said roughly three a month. They found that only about. About 3% of the jury pool held fixed opinions far below thresholds that the Supreme Court cases that have been talk about. So there's conviction stands, then she pulls some wild shit out of her ass. Wow. After the US Supreme Court's Miller vs Alabama line of cases barred mandatory life without parole for juveniles. Michelle files under that even though she

B

says, I'm a juvenile.

A

She was 18 years old when the murder happened.

B

What does she want?

A

That's just math. You were 18, you're not a juvenile.

B

There's a hard number here that we designed as an adult.

A

Can you imagine a judge with their gavel, like, am I missing something here? Did I.

B

Does 19 come before 18?

A

Hold on a second here.

B

I've been counting wrong.

A

Did we raise it to 21? Like, what are we talking about here? Adulthood?

B

Did we move adulthood?

A

What the fuck is going on?

B

19? Does 19 come after 4 now?

A

I mean, they say it has no merit and it fails. Well, I mean, you could be 14, kill a person and they'll charge you as an adult, so I guess it makes sense. Why not try to go the other way? Fuck it.

B

Yeah, that's. That's the logic.

A

2012 to 2025, Brandon's filing a bunch of shit about the bite mark, saying that the forensic bite mark evidence is more art than science. But the courts say it's not enough to overturn shit, basically because there's a lot of other evidence. So it's dismissed.

B

Yeah. You got a soap garden hose?

A

Yeah. 2014, Devin's brother Derek dies at age 30. Somehow I don't know what he died from, but he's dead at 30.

B

That's fucked up.

A

Real fucked up. So where are they now? Well, Devin's brother's dead, but otherwise Michelle and Brandon divorced while they were incarcerated. As of 2026, both in prison, life without parole. Michelle at SCI Muncie and Brandon at SCI Somerset set. Neither has been able to establish who did the actual murdering. And it doesn't matter because they did it together. Devin is buried at the Northampton Memorial Shrine in Palmer Township, Pennsylvania. And Carrie give her the last word here? Carrie said that she loved Devin and everything about her. She says she still thinks about her. She says some days it's hard to be happy. And I believe that's because I've only ever really loved Devin and I still keep her presence strong in my everyday life. By the way, she said that she built a life, an army career and has kids. I think she stayed with her husband, the army guy, and had kids with him and shit, which is did anyone look at him? If I was in boot camp, my wife was living with some chick, I might get upset about that, maybe look at him. I don't know. But no, I'm just gone.

B

Right?

A

Yeah, he was at boot camp. I'm joking. This has done. There's been a ton of shows on this, but not a lot lately. Until very recently when Snap did an episode after it's already been on our fucking schedule. So pissed off.

B

That's not snapped.

A

It's not snapped. No. There's a Forensic Files episode from June of. Or no, from 2004. There is I killed my BFF from 2014 and Grave Secrets, which is from 2016. And then Snap did one in 2026. In May, just recently. I was like, you assholes. So that's all right. We did a way better job than snapped, I'm sure.

B

And it's not snapped. That's not a snapped. Why did they do it?

A

Snapped? This is just crazy. So there you go, Everybody. That's Easton, Pennsylvania. Very quick through the end here. Shutupandgivemerder.com is where you go for all of your ticketing needs and all of your merchandise needs. Also, if you are whatever app you're listening on, give us five stars. It helps a lot. Just say whether you're more of a mayo or mustard person and then tell us maybe what kind of mustard you like. If you're more mustard on there, that's all you have to say on your review. It doesn't matter. Give us five stars. Netflix thumbs up helps a lot. Do that. Shutupandgivemerder.com all your tickets. September 18th, Milwaukee at the Papa. September 19th, Minneapolis at the State Theater. Get your tickets right goddamn now. Those are going to be awesome shows. And then also for totally Sacramento, San Jose, Tarrytown, Boston, Dallas. Also we got coming up in October and November, so get those. Shutupandgivemerder.com Social media, Smalltownmurder On Instagram, Smalltown Pot on Facebook. Then on top of that, definitely get yourself Patreon. Do yourself a favor. Patreon.com CrimeInSports Just like the name of our other show that you should also check out in addition to your stupid opinions, which you should also check out, but this and Patreon. Anybody? $5 a month or above, you get everything we put out, including as soon as you subscribe, you get almost 400 back bonus episodes immediately. You can binge on all of those new ones every other week. One crime and sports, one small town murderer. You get them all baby. This week for crime and sports, Kirby Puckett, Twins legend and hall of Famer. And then for small town murder, maternal Instinct, the documentary where the woman cut a baby out of another woman, pretended to have it on her own. We'll talk about not only the documentary, but the body cam footage and the interrogations and everything else that is patreon.com crimeinsports and you get everything. We put out ad free. And you get a shout out at the end of the regular show. Keep doing that. Keep coming back and seeing us. If you want to follow us on social media, you want to find us, shut up. And givememurder.com has dropdown menus that take you everywhere, from tickets to Patreon to social media, all that. Do that. Keep coming back. And until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure.

B

Bye.