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Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

hey everybody, it's Chuck here. It's April 21, 2020 on our Covid timeline here for the Saturday trip down memory lane. This is a really fun episode so I'm very excited to recommend this EP from April 21st, the Soul Train episode where we take a fun look back at the great, great TV show that was Soul Train.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Welcome to Stuff youf Should Know, a production of iHeartradio. Hey and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh CL Charles W Chuck Bryan over there. And this is Stuff youf Should Do.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Not bad.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Let's hear yours. I know you can do it.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

The Soul Train, it's so much higher than that.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

That was good though. But you, you. You dropped it down into your range and it still was. You made it your own, I think is what I'm trying to say. And I like it.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Which is old white guy version.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

So you're not old, you're just middle aged now?

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Uh, okay, sure.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Well, let me ask you this, Chuck. Were you aware of Soul Train while it was on?

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Oh, yeah.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Okay, then you're super old.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

I loved Soul Train, sure.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

So I was a Solid Gold man myself, but I can get on some Soul Train for sure. Especially like vintage stuff these days.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yeah, I mean, I watched Solid Gold to be sure, an American Bandstand, but I was just a. A rabid consumer of popular culture and television and music growing up. So before MTV came along and completely changed my life because that's all I watched was shows like Soul Train were where I could. Because, you know, often I couldn't stay up to watch late night talk shows where you see performances. Like this is where I got to see live music before I could start go seeing live music.

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Right?

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Oh, yeah, that was. And that was a huge draw of it, for sure. Like the idea of just being able to tune in on Saturday at 11:00am depending on where you were and seeing like somebody like Marvin Gaye or Stevie Wonder perform.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Absolutely.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Like, that was. That was a big deal. Especially like you were saying if you were too young and fell asleep too early to go to a proper show. That's right. But even more than that, and like, that was a huge, huge mark that Soul Train left was just presenting that. But that had been done before. There was American Bandstand. There were sorts of like kind of dance party TV shows. So it didn't exactly pioneer in that sense. But what it did pioneer in is that the people that was presenting African Americans, teenagers who were hip and their own people and part of black culture, and presenting it in a way that, like, wasn't apologetic, that wasn't critical to that didn't portray it in some sort of negative light or in a way that, you know, was trying to get white people to understand it. Just presenting it as it was and celebrating it. That's where Soul Train, like really broke through. And it's very, very difficult to overstate how revolutionary and groundbreaking Soul Train was. Especially for how simple this show format was, basically.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yeah, I mean, like you said Bandstand had been around since 1952. And this, you know, kind of was known as the Black American Bandstand. And it followed that format. It was, you know, people, a live music performance, a host interviewing and talking to these people, these musicians afterward, briefly. And then beyond that, just awesome music spinning on the turntable and amazing dancing, amazing outfits, amazing hairstyles, and just a celebration of black culture. It was really, really cool. And the point is made in this article that Dave put together for us, but it was definitely by black people and for black people, but it was an introduction to black culture to white kids like me. Little eight year old Chuck in Stone Mountain, Georgia, sitting around watching the Soul Train dance line.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yeah, I can imagine it was mind blowing, Chuck. Like, and I think it wasn't just, you know, it wasn't like you were necessarily sheltered where you were growing up. Whether you were or not, it kind of doesn't matter. It was that there was no place for you to be exposed to this prior to Soul Train, that if you saw a black guy on tv, it was, say on the news and he was being arrested for something, or he was involved in a protest and the protest was kind of presented in a particularly negative, agitated light, or he was a sidekick on TV or a servant or in some kind of goofy comedy or something like that. And Soul Train didn't do that. There was no subscribing to all, like the preconceived notions that there had been before. It was just its own thing. It was like, hey, by the way, we've been, you know, we have our own culture over here. You guys have ignored all this time. We're going to put it on TV and show it off. And if you like it, awesome. If you don't get lost.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yeah. And Dave, I thought it was kind of astute that he said it was kind of like a lifestyle brand before that was such a thing. Because these people were influencers. What you saw on Soul Train, you wanted to dance like that, you wanted to wear those clothes. If someone debuted a sweet move that you saw on Saturday morning, you would practice that move in your living room and then debut it at your club that night.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

And there were like some pretty sweet moves that were debuted on Soul Train.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

The sweetest.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

We did an entire episode on the moonwalk, if you'll remember correctly, that was originally called the backslide that was created on Soul Train. The robot, the rerun dance.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Man, there's so much sweet roboting going on.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yes. Yeah. And that's where it came from. Apparently no one did the robot. And, like, these were, like, basically club kids who now had a place to do their club stuff on TV and then go out to the clubs later that night and do some more and, like, come up with more stuff. And they'd come bring it to Soul Train again. And then kids would watch that. Kids, college kids, adults would watch this and be like, this is the coolest thing that's on TV right now. And I want to do those dance moves, too.

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Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Let's read a couple of these quotes that kind of encapsulate how important of a show this was. One is from philosopher, activist and Harvard professor Cornel West. He said, I never missed it Saturday morning as a graduate student at Princeton. I would see it wherever I was. It made available to the world one of the great traditions in American history, which is a history of soul music. Soul music, at its best, taught America, especially young Americans, about color, how to be free, and how to love in a deeper and better way. And this from Common, the actor and rapper. Watching my babysitter get the opportunity to go on Soul Train was like a dream come true for her because Soul Train was the biggest thing then for the black community. It gave ordinary, everyday people an opportunity to express themselves. It showed us that we, too, have a place on tv.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yeah. And I can't imagine what Common's babysitter. How excited she must have been to get to be on Soul Train.

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Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Like, that must have been the biggest thing possible. Like, they said it was the hippest trip on television. And, like, that was not much of an exaggeration, especially at the time. Especially when you compared it to, like, American Bandstand at the time, which, when Soul Train came along, you said Bandstand had been on since 1952, almost two decades by the time Soul Train comes along. And There was a TV critic in 1973 who wrote, I believe, for the New York Times, that comparing Soul Train to the old American Bandstand is like comparing champagne to seltzer burns. That had to hurt Dick Clark.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Oh, he did fine.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Well, as far as I could tell, everything I've ever heard about him, he was literate, so he very well could have read that. And if not, somebody may have read it to him and it hurt his feelings. There's no way it didn't.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

So we can't talk about Soul Train without talking about Don Cornelius.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

No.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Don Cornelius was the host and creator of Soul Train and owner. And owner, which is huge. Like, this guy owned his own TV show, which was not a very Common thing to happen. Still is. Not a common thing.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

They usually put him in league with Desi Arnaz, who owned I Love Lucy and Mike Douglas, who owned the Mike Douglas Show. Most of the. Even, like the creators of a show, you didn't own the show that you created. Like, you have some sort of deal with somebody to help produce it, or a network has exclusive rights to it, or somebody else at least owns some other piece of it. This was 100% Don Cornelius jam. And there's a legend that kind of goes along with that that James Brown came on very early on in, like, 1972 or 3, and he was like, so who's backing you on this man?

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Who's back in the man.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Thank you. I can't do a very good James Brown. And Don Cornelius says, it's just me, James. And apparently James Brown thought that he didn't fully understand the question, so he kind of asked it again. Didn't think to rephrase it in different words, just asked the same question. Don Cornelius answers in the same way. He says, it's just me, James. Like, he got what he was saying, and he was telling him, this is mine, 100% mine. Nobody else owns it. It's totally my show. And I don't think anybody else could have done it like Don Cornelius did. He was perfect for Soul Train. And I think the reason why is because it came from him like it was his creation and his baby.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Should we take a break?

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

I'm a little worked up, so. Yeah, maybe so.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

All right. You're gonna work on your rerun dance. We're gonna take a little break, and we'll go back and talk about young Don Cornelius right after this.

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Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

All right, so young Don was born in Chicago on the south side, in the neighborhood of Bronzeville known as the Black Metropolis. He was the son of a postal worker and was a Marine. He joined the Marines after high school, fought in South Korea after that, comes home to Chicago, sells cars for a little while, sells insurance for a little while and then says, I want to be a cop.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

I want to be a Popo Yep. And he was a popo also in there somewhere. He married, I believe, his high school sweetheart and has two kids. So by the time he's a cop, he's married with. With two kids at home, two sons. And one day there's a story, an urban legend, that as far as I know, is true. Let me smell it.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Well, then it's not an urban legend. It's just a story.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

It could be a true urban legend. Okay, we're going to come up with an entirely different category right now, Chuck.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Right?

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

So Don Cornelius, Officer Cornelius, pulls the guy over. And that guy happened to be the news director, Roy Wood, for a local AM radio station, wvon. And as Roy Wood is getting this ticket written up by Officer Cornelius, he's like, hey, man, your voice is astounding. Because if you've never heard Don Cornelius voice, press pause right now and go onto YouTube. Just listen to some Soul Train intros from him. He was an amazingly hip cat with one of the best voices of all

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

time, rival Barry White. He also pulled over the guy and said, license and registration, baby. Yeah, so that helped.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yeah, do it as Sammy Davis Jr. Pulling him over now.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Hey, babe, give me your license and registration.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

That was so good. So anyway, the guy is like, you have a really great voice. Have you ever considered going into radio? And Don Cornelius says, I haven't until now, but I'm going to give it some thought. And not only does he give it some thought, it's not clear whether he actually gave Roy Wood the ticket or not, but he actually quits being a cop, goes and takes a three month broadcasting course with a wife and two sons at home. So this is a pretty big risk on his part. And tries out for a part as a radio announcer at wvon and gets hired after a three month course because his voice was that great and because his Persona was that hip, too.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

So, yes, Don Cornelius, the voice of Gold, the Golden tonsils.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Is that what they call the Velvet Fog?

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

That was Mel Torme.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Oh, okay. I always get those two confused.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

And Noel on Movie Crush, his nickname is Smoky Velvet.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Oh, that's nice.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

I'm not sure where that came from. Maybe I made it up.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Smokey Gullet.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Smoky Velvet.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Oh, Smoky Velvet. Smoky Gullet.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

That's really gross. So he becomes a DJ at the radio station like you said, and then is hired as a reporter, a news reporter on TV for WCIU tv. He covered sports. He covered civil rights stuff. He had a show for the news program called A Black's View of the News, which is you know, something you could only get away with in the

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

1960s, I think, early 70s. Oh, yeah, you're right. It would have been the 60s. Sorry.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yeah. And he. He interviewed Jesse Jackson, he interviewed Martin Luther King, still DJing at night. And he hosted the series of house parties and club appearances all over Chicago. And he would take the train to get to these places. So he called these parties the Soul Train. That's where the name came from.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yeah. So he's like a TV broadcaster by day, radio DJ and sock hop DJ by night, comes up with this Soul Train idea. And again, so this is like in his first year after taking a three month broadcasting course, after pulling over a radio executive who told him he had a good voice and he's like, you know what? I'm happy doing news and civil rights reporting. And I'm part of this group called the Good guys. These black DJs out of Chicago that were kind of known as the arbiters of cool. But he said that he had. He later said that he had this burning desire to see black people depicted on television in a positive light. And he decided that the best way to do that was to kind of take these parties, these sock hops, and just kind of cool Chicago house parties that he was DJing and just put them on TV, that like, that would basically be enough. That if people just saw how cool these parties were and how fun they were and how much like, how. What a celebration of, like black culture they were just in and of themselves, that that could be a TV show by itself. And that was the original Soul Train.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

That's right. And very key. He went to his TV station, W. CIU and said, I want to shoot a pilot for this thing, baby. And they said, sure, but we're not going to front the money. And he said, I'll pay for it. Little did he know what a fortuitous move that was. Yeah, because I think had they funded it, they would have had a real claim to it legally. But he put up 400 bucks of his own money, shot a pilot. It didn't look that great, it was in black and white, but it was a big hit immediately. And he said, not because it was wonderful, but because it was theirs. It belonged to the black people.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yeah.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

A year later, he moves to LA and said, I'm gonna do the show for real here. This is where it became nationally syndicated, which, you know, I don't know when we talked about TV syndication, but that's basically when it's not owned and run on a major network. But you sell it to each local TV station in whatever city.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yeah, I don't know what we would have talked about that on either, but I think we should do an entire episode on TV syndication. I'll bet it was world changing.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Sure.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

So when he moved it to Los Angeles in 1971, that black and white Soul Train, it used to be on every weekday, they continued that. So it was two things. It was a full color, nationally syndicated television show out of la, but it was also a black and white local weekly or weekday television show out of Chicago at the same time for like a good five years. They were both running at the same time. And so Don Cornelius was at the helm of both. So on Fridays, he would fly out to la, shoot four episodes, two on Saturday, two on Sunday, and then fly back in time to be there for the afternoon black and white Monday episode of the Chicago local Soul Train.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Amazing. Working hard.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

He was working hard. Yes. Right.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

So it was a very popular show right out of the gate. But advertising was always kind of a struggle because mainstream brands didn't quite know what to make of it. They didn't. This was kind of the first show of its kind. But that did open the door for Johnson Products, another black owned Chicago business from husband and wife team George and Joanne Johnson that they started in 1954. And these commercials are so great too. They sold beauty and hair care products to African Americans. So Afro Sheen and Ultra Sheen were the two big ones in the two big commercials, you see. And they became as much as part of the fabric of the show, almost as like the Soul Train line or the performers or anything else. Really.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yeah. And I mean, like, I think in large part because they were. They were like ourstamps.com, like one of the earliest and longest running sponsors. Right. So when they came on, what they were promoting with, like, with Afro Sheen and Ultra Sheen was radical in that it's saying, like, just let your hair grow naturally. These are hair products for African Americans to use when they're growing their hair naturally, not following, like white beauty standards. Right. So it was like a perfect sponsor for Soul Train, which is a celebration of black culture and for itself. The Johnson family of products were promoting black culture in its natural state too. So it was just perfect to go hand in hand. I think they kind of worked with each other, but also were important, independent of one another. But when you put them together, it was greater than the sum of its parts, even.

IBM AI Business Announcer

Yeah.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

And it was a big deal culturally. Not only was it a big hit, but people Like Jesse Jackson said, don Cornelius is right up there with any civil rights leader of our generation. He gave people a chance to feel good about themselves.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

That's pretty great.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

And like I said, I was a little white kid watching it. There's this lady, Madeline Weeks, who is a fashion editor at gq. She was a little white girl in Virginia, and she said, I watched Soul Train religiously every week. Loved it from beginning to end. Even the Afro Sheen and ultra Sheen ads were heaven. Had the funkiest, most stylish, sexiest dancers. Everybody looked like they were having the best time. All the girls looked gorgeous. Who wouldn't want to look like that? I was just a little kid living in the countryside in Virginia, and I lived for it.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

That is something else.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

It's pretty great.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Well, you want to take a break and then get back into what it was like to watch Soul Train and be on it?

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

You know, I was a guest.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yes. I can't wait. We're going to debut that clip live.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

All right, let's do it.

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Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Okay, Chuck, so we're back. There was one little thing that I wanted to include about wciu, the original Chicago home of Soul Train. Apparently it was like a ragtag UHF station, an independent station. And have you ever seen that movie UHF with Weird Al?

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Nope.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Oh, it's so good. But it actually is not too far off from wciu. They would play Lithuanian and Polish language talk shows, Amos and Andy bullfights from Mexico. Like these are. They just had this weird assemblage of

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

TV shows of awful programming.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

But then their in house programming was made by like this ragtag kind of group of inexperienced people. And there's a I read in the Chicago Reader this kind of oral history of the local version of Soul Train. The head cameraman at WCIU had strabismus and couldn't use the viewfinder in the camera. It was like that kind of ragtag group that just kind of got it done somehow. I just love that little tidbit.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

That's pretty cool.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yeah.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

All right, so if you watch Soul Train, the first thing that you would see when the show starts is that classic animated intro of that freight train rolling into the city. So Cool. So iconic. Then you see Don Cornelius, always dressed to the nines. The coolest cat maybe to ever be

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

on television would make Billy Dee weep with jealousy.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

He was. Because he was a DJ previously. He was. He just had that DJ lingo down.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yeah.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

You know, they put in one of the things. It's going to be a stone gas, honey. Like, all that 70s sort of shaft like talk was. Was just who Don Cornelius was.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Let me. Let me try my hand at it. You ready?

Rexulti Medication Announcer

Okay.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

It's going to be a stone gas, honey. Okay. That sounded like a CB trucker from the 70s, somehow interesting. It's gonna be a stone gas, honey. I don't know what my problem is.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Hey, not bad.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Don't lie to me, Chuck.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Josh Cornelius, you had your musical guests, like we said, just like American Bandstand. I think sometimes they lip synced, and sometimes they really sang early on.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

They lip synced across the board.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yeah. It kind of depends on who the artist is, too. Patti LaBelle, Barry White, Aretha Franklin, Stevie Wonder, James Brown, Al Green. Like, just a murderer's row of rhythm and blues and soul performers. I think Gladys Knight and the Pips was on the first syndicated episode.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yeah. And, like, that was a huge favor that he called in. And Gladys totally delivered by being on that first nationally syndicated episode because it drew a lot of attention. And apparently from that point on, he was always very deferential, saying, you know, if it weren't for Gladys, none of this would be here right now.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Oh, that's nice.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yeah, it was pretty cool of her. Have you ever eaten at Gladys Knight's House of Chicken and Waffles?

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

What do you think?

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

I'm thinking you probably have multiple times, but we've never discussed it.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yeah. I mean, when I lived in la, I was a regular at Roscoe's Chicken and Waffles, but, yeah, Gladys Knight does it right as well.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yes, she does. Have you ever had the smothered chicken there?

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Mm, I don't think so. Is it, like, gravy or something?

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yes. And it is even better than the chicken and waffles.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Really?

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yes.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

I can't not get the chicken and waffles, though.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Get both, okay? Just get both. There's no reason to hold back at Gladys Knight's House of Chicken and Waffles.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yeah. Eat a little bit of both and take the rest home.

Oregon Wildfire Safety Announcer

Sure.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Or eat it all.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yes.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

So Soul Train, of course, the musical performances were great and classic and iconic, but it's the dancing that is what it's really known for. They scouted out some of these dancers, they would go to the clubs, and they did this on American Bandstand and other shows too, that had dancers. They would go find the flyest dancers in the clubs, invite them to be on the show, and everyone else had to audition. Thousands of people would line up and audition with their dance moves to be a soul trained dancer.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yeah. And again, Commons babysitter was saying that was a big deal to be picked up. And some were recruited, like you were saying, from the clubs. And those particular dancers were usually so good that they would rise to, like, national prominence. Like, the camera just couldn't avoid them. They also were no slouches at learning how to play to the camera, too, when the camera was on them or anywhere near them. But one of the ways that everybody shined, too, whether you got a lot of camera time or not, was in the Soul Train Line, which became a really regular feature of each episode, where everybody just kind of be clapping and standing on two sides, and then a couple would come down. Usually a couple, sometimes it was solo, would come down and do some crazy dance moves and really get a chance to, like, show off and kind of capture the attention of the. Of the viewing audience.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yeah. If you've never gone on YouTube and looked at Soul Train Line videos, first of all, I'm surprised that you exist as a human. And secondly, just do it and then look up at the clock two hours later because you will be able to do nothing but watch those video clips. It's amazing.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

And what's cool about it, too, is you can put it to any kind of super cool music and it sounds really great and looks really great.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

What, you like mute it and put on different music?

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

No, no. But other people have, like, put their own tracks or other people's tracks.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Oh, really?

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Video of Soul Train and it works really well.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Oh, interesting.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yeah.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

I like the real music.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Sure. Real music isn't bad either.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yeah, the Jungle Boogie one is really good in particular.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

That is a good one.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

So they'd film four episodes in a weekend. Apparently the dancers were worked pretty hard, and Cornelius was pretty demanding of them. You couldn't chew gum, you couldn't curse. His mantra was, be on time, be tactful, be creative, be funky, and be yourself.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yeah.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Words to move by.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

They were unpaid, too. Typically, I guess you would be paid if you were dancing to a performer, but if you were part of the segments that. That where it was just them playing music and people were dancing, you were unpaid. I think they'd feed you because, again, you're doing two episodes over two days, so four total, like you were saying. And I mean, you're dancing like the whole time. And I'm guessing that these things probably took longer than an hour. They didn't just do an hour. And that was it with no retakes or edits or anything like that. So I'm not sure how long it actually took to film an actual episode. But you were basically dancing the entire time, two episodes, back to back, twice over a weekend.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

I bet it was fun too, though.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

I'm sure it was fun too. I also get the impression that it was a little competitive. Although there's a guy who frequently gets overshadowed by Don Cornelius, but is known as his right hand man. His name was Clinton Gent and he was one of the kind of co creators of Soul Trainer. He was there from the beginning in Chicago and he had a real eye for finding those dancers in the clubs. He was one of the ones who would go scout dancers and. But not only of finding people who had like really crazy good moves and getting them to come onto Soul Train, but of putting all sorts of different dancers who would normally be pretty competitive with one another, finding groups that would kind of gel together like a family. So that when you go back and watch Soul Train episodes or when you were watching it when they were coming on the first time, you weren't like sitting there seeing like dancers like kind of sniping one another, backbiting or pushing each other out of the way. It did kind of have this really family vibe every episode. And apparently that was the work of that Clinton Gent guy who just really knew how to put people together.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yeah, that GQ editor really nailed it. Like, it just looked like every. It looked like a party you wanted to be at. Like everyone was having a good time.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yeah, for sure.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

So some of the. Some of these dancers went on to be famous and were kind of discovered there. Jody Watley, the singer, she started out as a teenager on Soul Train and Don Cornelius was like, you're super talented. I'm a businessman. I'm gonna pair you with this other guy, Jeffrey Daniel, and you guys should record music together. And that little group went on to be Shalimar, of course. In 1977, they got together and then

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

after Shalimar, Jody Watley went on to become Jody Watley.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

That's right. You mentioned Rerun from what's Happening, Nick Cannon, Carmen Electra, which I didn't know that she started out there. That kind of surprised me.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

I didn't either. Her real name is Tara Leigh Patrick. Did you know that?

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

I don't know if I did or not. I knew it wasn't Carmen Electra.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yeah, no, it's not that. Although she looks way more like a Carmen Electra than a Tara Leigh Patrick.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yeah, agreed.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Doesn't look at all Irish or Southern.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Rosie Perez was maybe one of the biggest names to come out of Soul Train. This was in the 80s, because, you know, you think about the salad days of Soul Train and you'd probably think of the 70s, but the 80s were pretty big and it went all the way to 2006. But in the 80s is when the hip hop influence came on and Rosie Perez brought that Brooklyn, New York City hip hop flavor. And if you go back and watch some of her stuff on Soul Train, it's like the dancing's cool. It's much different than that sort of 70s groove. It was. It was that sort of New York City hip hop style.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yeah, she does it like the beginning of. What is it?

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Do the right thing.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yeah, that's her dancing at the beginning of it, right?

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yep.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yeah, that was like straight up Soul Train. That's what she did on Soul Train, which is very much not like what they were doing in la too. So she kind of rose to prominence as a Soul Train dancer very quickly. And Don Cornelius apparently was like, hey, I want to lock you into a contract. And Rosie Perez, being smart, street wise, Rosie Perez said, that's great, I'll show it to my lawyer. And apparently Don Cornelius didn't like this. And as the story goes, he grabbed Rosie Perez, which is not what you do when somebody says that they want their lawyer to look at a contract. You want them to lock into or for any reason, really. And to get him all of her. She threw a piece of the fried chicken she was eating at the time, right at his head, and hit him in the face.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

That's how the story goes.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

That's how Rosie Perez tells it for sure.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yeah. And, you know, we should mention too, that that is not cool at all. And while we're praising Don Cornelius for his talents as a host, he. He did later in life when he was a bit older. Was. Was he arrested or was he just charged? I think he was charged with domestic violence against his Russian, Ukrainian wife.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yes, he was at least charged. I don't know if he was convicted, but there was a. Yeah, he got into an entailment because of that at least accusation that he had abused her. And then also apparently intimidated a witness into changing their story. He was charged with that as well, it was. From what I understand, though, this all took place over a single night and possibly within a very short period of time over a single night. Not at all trying to justify or excuse it, but I don't know the story behind it at all. But I think it's worth pointing out, like, Don Cornelius was not just a straight up, like, nothing but a smooth, cool cat. He was a complex human being who had faults as well, too.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yeah.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

And flaws and all that. I mean, grabbing Rosie Perez is bad enough alone.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Sure. You know what you get? You get the old chicken wing to the forehead.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yeah, you do. You would think, like, even before she was a star, you'd know just hanging out with her a little bit. Not to mess with Rosie Perez.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

No, I would never mess with Rosie Perez. He didn't know that his signature sign off was I'm Don Cornelius. And as always, in parting, we wish you love, peace and soul.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yeah, there were a couple of other people who kind of rose to prominence, too. Cheryl Song, she was the first Asian dancer on Soul Train. She said she had to really kind of prove herself that she wasn't just like the token non African American dancer, that she was actually a really good dancer. And she did. And then Jemaine Stewart, who you might recognize as the singer of we don't have To Take Our Clothes off, and that's pretty cute because he came back home and performed it on Soul train in 1986. And when Don Cornelius was introducing him, he was saying he made good and we're all very proud of him.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

And like you mentioned, the Irish, Carmen Electra, who I guess stood out because she was river dancing on Soul Train. And everyone was like, what is that?

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

What is that? But then everybody wanted to do it because it was Carmen Electra doing it.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

So Soul Train was so popular. And Dick Clark, I guess, didn't feel like he had enough money as a TV mogul and an icon on American Bandstand. So he went, hey, I'm going to start my own Soul Train and try and bury Don Cornelius. And I'm going to call it Soul Unlimited. I'm going to put it on abc. And it was. You can see clips of it on YouTube. It didn't last long, but it was a literal ripoff of Soul Train. And you might say Soul Train was a ripoff of American Bandstand. Fair enough. But for him to go after the African American market like that, I don't think was very cool.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

No, it isn't very cool. I could see Dick Clark being a little blind to the larger implications of it. And, you know, I don't know if he was involved in its canceling or not, but, you know, some. Some black leaders did get it canceled. They started a campaign to say, like, no, just leave this one alone. I don't know if how easily Dick Clark went along with it or not. I like to think he was like, oh, okay, I see the error of my ways now and dropped it. But, yeah, only a few episodes came out either way. Soul Train was left to, like, stand on its own, you know?

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yeah.

Tremphya Medication Announcer

Which.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

And I think rightfully so, too. Yeah, yeah.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

There were other performers later on, they would have white performers. David Bowie very famously was on there. Oh, no.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Did you watch that? I did. Did a. Oh, it was awful.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Did a pretty bad lip sync job, which Cornelius gave him, kind of teased him about. And then Elton John, who has always had a pretty big following in the African American community.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

I didn't know that. Did you?

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yeah, yeah. He wrote about it in his autobiography that I read last year.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

That's cool.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

I think it started when Aretha Franklin covered Burn down the Mission, if I'm not mistaken.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Okay.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Was that the one she recorded? I think that's the way it went down.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

I've never heard of that song before.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

What is wrong with you? You've never heard Burn down the Mission?

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

I don't think so. I'm not the biggest Elton John fan. I mean, I'm fine with him, but I really don't like a lot of his 70s stuff. Like, a lot. I really don't like it.

IBM AI Business Announcer

Wow.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

But I like his 80s stuff. Like the whole I'm Still Standing thing. Okay, that's good. It was Burned down the Mission before that.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yeah, yeah. That was in the 70s.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

My follow up question is, what problem did he have with the Mission?

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

He didn't write it.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Okay.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Bernie Taupin wrote all his lyrics.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Oh, I see. Now I am a Bernie Taupin fan.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

You're a national treasure.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Thank you.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

So Elton John was on a couple of times, and it's pretty sweet. If you look at the one, I'm not sure if it was the Philadelphia Freedom one or I hate that song or the other one. It's such a good song. But he. They, you know, he takes questions and you can tell he's kind of shy and a little nervous. And he takes some questions from the. From the people, from the dancers and stuff, which was kind of cool, but it's just very sweet to see how nervous he was.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yeah. Cause he's known for being a humble, humble spirit Is he? No. Have you ever seen that documentary they made or he self made or. No, his partner made. His partner was the only one he would let you know, follow him around with the camera, which is pretty understandable. But he came out in the last like, I don't know, decade or less,

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

the tantrums and tiaras, I think.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was great, man. I loved it.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yeah, he's good. I like that Rocket man movie a lot too.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

I have not seen that. I saw it. I saw it over someone else's shoulders on a plane.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

You wouldn't like it.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

I didn't know. It didn't look like anything I would like.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

No, if you don't like Elton John, you wouldn't like the movie about Elton John.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

No. And again, Sir Elton. I have no problem with you personally. It's just that that period through 70, the 70s, like Crocodile Rock, the one about like Philadelphia Freedom, you know, all

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

those bad 70s albums. Madman across the Water and Captain Fantastic and Goodbye Yellow Brick Road. Those are all terrible.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Exactly. I feel understood, Chuck. Thank you.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

So the 80s come along and 1983, Don Cornelius has brain surgery. Takes a little time off, he comes back. Soul Train has changed their look a little bit to try and fit with kind of what's going on at the time with like Whitney Houston and people like that. And then hip hop and rap come along and apparently Don Cornelius is not a big fan.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yeah, and I think I read, I can't remember, I read a really great article in Dazed about it. Or there's another pretty good one. That was a review of the recent TV biopic about him and Soul Train on the Guardian. It basically explained it like that Don Cornelius was like a mid century integration minded black businessman. And that he and his ilk and generation, they had been working toward like, you know, getting a piece of the pie that didn't necessarily. It wasn't the white pie, it was the pie that white people controlled. And if you were, you know, if you, if you made your way to get a piece of this, that like you could, you could be black and still enjoy the good life. And that hip hop reminded him of everything that he and his generation had kind of tried to work beyond and past and to integrate. And that to him it was a step backwards. So he wasn't vibing on it at all. My own personal take is that he was a smooth customer and he appreciated smoothness and hip hop, especially 80s hip hop was the opposite of smooth. And so he was not vibing on it at all. And he even referred to himself as an old guy sometimes when he was interviewing some of the hip hop artists who came on Soul train in the 80s.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yeah. I watched one of the Public Enemy clips, and it was weird. Afterward, he basically ignores Chuck D and talks only to Flavor Flav and then finally turns to Chuck and was like, and now Chuck D. He said, you must feel so blessed to have someone as talented as Flavo as your partner.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

What? Really?

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

It was really weird. And Chuck D was like, yeah, you

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

know, he's quite a character, as you can see.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yeah. I just. I don't know. It really came off as, like, Don Cornelius doesn't understand this. I'm not dissing Flav, but, like, Chuck D was like, the. He was the leader of that band, you know?

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yeah. He was the brains behind the outfit, for sure. And I mean, like, yeah, Flavor Flav's just like. He's. He's like. Fills in the kind of hardness of Chuck D. Yeah. I. I don't. Yeah. If you think Public Enemy, it's definitely Flavor Flav and Chuck D, but it's Chuck D. Yeah. You know what I mean? And then Flavor Flav.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yeah, it was definitely a strange interview, because I thought, finally, he's going to talk to Chuck D. And he's like, you must feel so good about having this guy as your partner.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Which. Which one was that after? Because they were on at least twice on the regular show, by my count, and then once on the Soul Train Awards, at least.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yeah. I don't remember.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

So it's not like he wasn't smart enough to know that they were big and should be on anyway, whether he liked them or not. But they did. They did can't trust it in 1991, and they did rebel without a pause in 1987. And I could not find the interview segment. I just saw, like, the performance, and they were both, like, really great.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Well, it was very sweet. And actually, it would have had to been the 90s one, because afterward, flavor Flav asked for a moment of silence for the passing of Miles Davis and Red Fox. And they take a moment of silence.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

That's awesome.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yeah, it was cool.

Home Depot FIFA World Cup Announcer

So.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

And that's actually just in case we haven't gotten this across enough yet. Soul Train, again, was. It never got away from, like, its black roots. Like, it never sold out or anything like that. Like, it was like. That makes perfect sense that they would include that part. They wouldn't just edit that out in the episode that they published. That was just part of it. Even as late as the early 90s.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yeah, in the early 90s is when Don Cornelius finally had to step down. May 10, 1993 was his final episode. He passed it on to the younger generation. It went all the way to 2006 and became the longest running syndicated show in TV history.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yeah, 35 seasons.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Amazing.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

And that younger generation that he handed the reins over to, some of the temporary hosts included Jamie Foxx, got his start. Tyra Banks and Shemar Moore from Criminal Minds. He was a longtime stand in host.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Really?

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yeah, he's big time. Yeah.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

I don't know who that is.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

I don't watch Criminal Minds either. But you've seen enough, like, ads for Criminal Minds that you would recognize, I'm

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

sure, very sadly, Don Cornelius took his own life. He was suffering from Alzheimer's and apparently was having a lot of seizures and just in a pretty bad way physically. And his son said that that was. That was the reason why he took his own life.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yeah. Well, plus, he'd also sold the rights, I think, to Soul Train, too. And it seems like things kind of started to go downhill for him around then, I think, in 2008.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yeah.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

But, yeah, apparently it was a really big surprise to everybody who knew him that he. He died by suicide. That. That was not the perceived outcome for him, I think.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yeah.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

But his legacy lives on. Like you said. I mean, the 35 seasons, the longest running syndicated television show of all time, in and of itself, it's an incredible achievement. But also to be, like, a cornerstone of, like, introducing black culture as black culture to the larger culture as a whole, and white culture.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Huge.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Is. Yeah. I mean, that's. That's about as big an accomplishment as you can make. It's like Jesse Jackson said, he was as important as any civil rights leader.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yep.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

You know, so that's Don Cornelius and Soul Train.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

That's how it went.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

If you want to know more about that, you don't need to know anything else. Just start. Go watching clips of Soul Train and you will be a happier person than you were before you started.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yeah. Get ready for some sick robot action.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

It's so great. And Rerun, too. Can't forget about Rerun. Fred Barry.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

No, that's sweet.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Well, since we talked about Fred Barry, that means everybody, obviously. It's time for listener mail.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

This is about Iron Maiden. Hey, guys, Listen to your short stuff on 666 and loved it. More so for Josh's thoughts on Iron Maiden. Hardest working band in business. Seen them twice. I've been a Maiden fan for about 15 years. And I gotta say, Josh was right on the money when he said Powerslave was the album to listen to if you've never really given them a chance. So, Chuck, whip out that old bean bag, roll up a fatty, crack open a good cold one and crank up some Maiden. You'll be glad you did. Also, just want to say thank you both for the awesome work you do. I'm spewing, which must be Australian for angry. He says I'm spewing because I couldn't get to your show when you came to Perth.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

I think so, yeah. Yeah, you missed a good show. That was. I was thinking about how cool that town was the other day.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yeah, Perth was cool. Your discussion and delivery of interesting, exciting topics. Topics, week after week. Transmute information and understanding into very enjoyable entertainment into my ear holes, bringing much joy not just to my commute, but to my work life. Lots of love from Mandurah, Western Australia. And that is from Ty.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Ty, I like this person.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yeah.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

First of all, Ty says that I'm right, which I love.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Yeah.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Likes Iron Maiden. Loves Iron Maiden, you could say. And is upset that we. That. That they missed our show.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

We'll be back.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

Sure, we will be. Hey, you know, we're like number one in Australia as far as podcasts go right now.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

I heard that, man. They're practically begging for us to come back.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

We'll. We'll come back and we'll definitely go to Perth again. So don't worry, Ty. We'll be there. Just keep an ear out. Keep your ear holes out.

Chuck (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

That's right.

Josh (Stuff You Should Know Co-host)

If you want to be cool like Ty and get in touch with us, you can do that. You can send us an email to stuff podcast@iheartradio.com

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