Will

This episode of Tales from the Lot is sponsored by Shakedown T shirts.com with unique lot style T shirts, license plate frames, coffee mugs and all sorts of things for Grateful Dead, Fish Zappa, panic and more. ShakeDownT Shirts.com where all US orders over $35 ship free. And just for Tales from the Lot listeners use the code Lot20 for 20% off of any order. That's L O T20. Tales from the Lot Episode 24 when is the next tour? My guest is Robert Ingersoll. He's here to talk seeing the dead in the 80s, 90s and beyond, Nim Chimsky and the project Nim documentary and much more. Here we go. Welcome to Tales from the Lot. This is Will. My guest this week is Deadhead activist and all around awesome person. He's coming from San Francisco. It's Bob Ingersoll. Thank you so much for joining me today.

Bob Ingersoll

Hey, thanks Will. I appreciate the opportunity to be here and tell my stories from the Lot.

Will

You're in San Francisco, but that's not where you're from originally, right? Where are you from? Born and raised at?

Bob Ingersoll

No, I'm, I'm actually from Boston and my dad was in the military so we did a lot of travel international as well as, you know, we've lived in a bunch of states, Florida, North Carolina, New Jersey, Massachusetts a couple of times and Oklahoma and, and then When I turned 18, I got drafted. So I, instead of going into the army, I joined the Air Force and one thing led to another and I, I, when I got out of the military, I had met a girl from Oklahoma. So I moved to Oklahoma in 1975 to go to undergraduate school. And pretty much the first day of school I, I met a guy that was teaching sign language to chimpanzees, which turns out to be Washoe, the first signing chimp. And so I, I got, I was pretty enamored with that as you know,

Will

and couldn't be, I mean this is a fantastic thing. I mean to be able to, it

Bob Ingersoll

really turned out to be a, not something that I really knew where it was going. But as soon as I met him, I, you know, first day of class, I walked up to him after class and I asked him, hey, can I work with you? And at that point he wasn't as internationally hugely famous like he turn, you know, like he ended up a few years later. So he allowed me to meet the chimps and a couple of days later I met a couple of chimpanzees named Ally and Vanessa. And I was I wanted to be an orthopedic surgeon and like everybody goes to college, they want to be a doctor or a lawyer, right? And, and I was 22 years old at the time and so, so I went out to meet these chimps and the moment I interacted with those two chimps it was like, wow, I don't know what this is called, but this is what I want to do. And I mean I knew that chimps were my people in, in the weirdest kind of way. I, I'm not really, I wasn't really an animal person or any of that sort of thing, but there was something about those two chimps and then as it turns out, chimps in general that I, I had some, I don't know, I don't want to call it magic, but I understood them, they understood me and we got along well. And although chimpanzees are horribly, not horribly, but they are very dangerous and nothing to mess around with. But for some reason I knew how to handle chimps. And so for a couple of years from 75 to 77, I worked with a bunch of different chimps and, and then In September of 1977 I met Nim Chimsky who, who is a sign language chimp that's, you know, pretty famous. Now there's a movie and a bunch of books and stuff. I will seen the movie actually and, and I, I became like the movie says, one of Nims or Nim's best friend. At the same time In September of 1977, I knew about the Dead. I had Working Man's dad and you know, American Beauty and all the albums, but I'd never seen a show, you know, so, and I think every deadhead out there that, you know, when they went to their first show it was like something in their brain clicked. Just kind of like the chimps did for me. And I went to my first show in October of 77 at the Lloyd Noble Center. I think it's one of the, the Dick's Picks actually might be number three. But it's the Lloyd Noble center show in October of 1977. Actually it's, I have it written down here. It's 11-10-77. And at that show I, I was like most people that go to their first dead shows like, holy cow, this is way not the album.

Will

And a bit of a culture shock too.

Bob Ingersoll

Yeah, indeed. And, and I, I, and it's 1977, I don't think the, the Dead were played any better in any year than 1977. So I walked out of there with my molecules rearranged. Right? Yeah, but at the same time I, I was pretty focused on the work I would. I was doing with the chimps. And so from afar I, you know, I knew some Deadheads, but. But I met more, started trading tapes between 77 and 81 or so when I went to my second dead show at the Zoo Amphitheater. And I think it was 81. Yeah, 81. And. And then again had my molecules rearranged. I think it was the last Dead show that wasn't sold out. And it was, it was a magical experience. And it was kind of like knowing that I was a chimp. I knew I was a Deadhead at that point. Right. And so still pretty occupied with undergraduate school and graduate school. So again, next year, 82. And then 85, saw the next two dead shows at the Zoo Amphitheater. And then in 85, unfortunately, the Chimps that I worked with had been sold to medical research, which you saw in the movie. And I was kind of lost, looking for somewhere to plug in. And I know a lot of you Deadheads out there, when you went to your first parking lot or went to your first show, the community speaks to you. Not just the band itself or the music, but there's something about the whole community that is attractive, especially when you're looking for a family or some family, you know, connection. And, and at. In the 85, we started touring and I learned how to tie dye because you have to have money to be able to tour, you know, and that was before everybody in the parking lot was selling something. So we, a friend of mine named Sean o', Brien, we went on our first tour and went to Alpine Valley, went to Minneapolis, did St. Louis, a bunch of shows and Soul Tie Dye, the Rosemont Horizon, and met incredible people, met photographers, you know, come up to us. My friend Sean was like dread at the time and so his dreads were like major. And. And you know, this lady walked up to us and said, hey man, you are so interesting looking. Can I take your picture? And we ended up letting her do it. And then she sent us, know, photographs back and, and, and it was, it was just a fun thing to do. At the same time, because my chimp friends were sold to medical research, I, I was also doing newspaper articles and trying to get in magazines and on television and stuff to promote the plight of the signing because Nim Chimpsky is pretty famous and so 60 minutes and a bunch of people like, you know, shows like that, national interest in, in his plight and so when we went on tour, we also handed out information about the chimps. So we had fun in the parking lot selling tie dyes and stuff. More importantly, we're handing out information about my chimp friends, right? So, and that went on until about, I don't know, about 1988, when I met who would become my wife, Belle, who's sitting right here. And in 1988, we were doing a medieval show, medieval fair and selling tie dye and handing out information about the dead and I mean about the chimps. And of course, we were talking about, by then we had been on tour and so all of our friends were Deadheads and we were trading tapes and all that and that and, and meeting older Deadheads than me. I'm kind of old, but there were at the time, Shaman that had tapes and knew, had all these connections and actually knew the band and, and things like that. I did see the evolution that at times I, I saw Brent turn into to Bruce Hornsby. Actually. Hornsby was, there might have been some, I don't know exactly what was going on, but Hornsby showed up a couple of times when Brent was still in the band before he died. And so I, I witnessed that transition. And although it was, I mean, of course it's not Pig Pen, you know, because literally, the Grateful Dead, as I read historically now, I know all this stuff. It was his band. I mean, even Jerry thought it was Pig Pens band. And I get it. I've heard all those tapes. I, I hear the, the complete difference in the way the Dead are after Pig and, and before, you know, when he was in the band, it was just a different band, but the, the nucleus of what the Dead became when Jerry kind of, without taking over, took over. Because I really think that Bob Weirs as like Jerry says, was an insanely great front man. I mean, he did really well. And, and the, I don't think that, and I don't know if I'm pretty sure that that Pig and Bob got along, but I don't think there, there could have been the Grateful Dead after Pig Pen without someone who was as powerful as Pig Pen in terms of being a frontman. And I, I, you know, I gotta say, I think Bob Weir is freaking amazing. I mean, I, I, I've seen over 150 shows and, you know, I never walked out of there going, oh, that sucked. I never want to come back. No, I mean, there might have been some shows that were, you know, shaky, but there was always one or two songs are like, whoa, man, that Morning Dew was Amazing or whatever, you know, so, so for me, I get that. But, I mean, it's going on now. People are like, well, no, I hate Dead and Company. I'm like, yeah, I've seen about 25 dead and company shows. I'm going to the sphere, and I'm looking forward to it. I mean, and I, I see the differences. You know, I appreciate those. I hear the tapes. I've got every one of the, you know, Dave's Picks, and I've got 3,000 hours of cassette tapes and all that. But, but really, it's the music and, and the interpretation of the music, I think, is, is, is up to the musicians. I'm not a musician, you know what I mean? And I want to give them that leeway. They're. Plus, they're evolving and they're older. And so, I mean, I understand that, that sentiment, that. Screw them, I don't think, you know, I mean, it's not something that, that a lot of my friends and I don't talk about. I mean, but my friends, we still go to the shows, you know, and we still have a blast. I mean, we saw the, the Dead and Company shows at the, the Gorge here recently, and then here in San Francisco, what, five shows? I think five or six. And, and the energy was there. It was. Well, you can watch the films and the clips on YouTube. That San Francisco show was amazing. I mean, and it really, you know, I guess that's a personal taste or whatever, but I, I, I don't want to live in the past. Although I, I loved it. It was great. Jerry was, you know, Jerry. I mean, what can you say? I mean, I have Jerry stories, you know, crazy ones, you know, in 19. What was it, Bill? 93, 92, something like that. In the Boston Garden, we, we were slightly altered and happy. And after the show, I mean, we're like. We were blown away. We were. And the show was so good. We're literally blown away. The Boston Garden empties out. It's just me and Belle. And we had moved over and sat down in some seats behind the stage, kind of, you know, because we had to get back to my aunt and uncle's house, which meant going out and getting on a trolley to the Green Line. Green Line to the right. I'm from Boston, so I know my way around. And, and, but we were like, whoa, man, that's going to be a hassle. And so we sat there, you know, trying to bring our molecules back together. And, and then the, a, a sliding curtain opens up and then Jerry Walks out, and there's nobody in the place, and. Except Belle and I and Jerry. And both Belle and I were like, jerry, like that. And he looks up and he smiles, like, from ear to ear and waves. He's got the briefcase, too. So we're, like, tripping, you know. Well, literally and figuratively. And. And so. And he waves, doesn't say a word, smiles carefully, walks down the steps and goes out. And Bell and I just looked at each other and goes, wow, that was cool. That kind of stuff, you know, it's the. Those kind of moments. And I know everybody that's on your show, at least, and more so than even some of the stories we have that are like.

Will

That.

Bob Ingersoll

They're like the moments that are part of your life that you reminisce back to. And. And. And it all kind of fits together. You know what I mean?

Will

So a lot of people talk about it as, like, that their life is this. This line. And. And then they go to a Grateful Dead show, and suddenly it's going this way. Like, there's that point, and everybody can mark that point where their life changed. You know, we all know when that happened, what song was playing or whatever moment it was, right?

Bob Ingersoll

And then after you get home from tourism, all you can think about is getting on the Grateful Dead hotline and when is the next tour? When does it start? When do we send in our mail order and all that? It was something to look forward to. You know, you come back to the grind. You do what you got to do. You. You know, I mean, and I hear this from. I'm into Billy Strings right now, and so I. I. And the Billy Strings scene is very reminiscent of the Grateful Dead scene in terms of the energy and. And the love of the scene and the music and all that from the fans, the. The young fans, and people like us, we pick up on the. The similarities between what's going on with Billy and what went on with the Dead, because it's very similar, because it's about the music, you know, and. And I think that Billy appreciates that, and I. And. And we. You know, we loved touring and going to multiple. You know, our friends, our family, and some of our friends would be like, dude, you've seen them, like, 85 times. I mean, why do you do that? And. And it's hard to explain to someone that has only been to one show or whatever that, no, it's different every night. And then the peripheral experiences around the show itself are different. And then, of course, after a few years, you know, people that you've met on tour that you can't wait to see again. And, and, and that has happened to us over. I still have friends that I met on tour that are still my friends, that are, like, in my regular circle of friends living in my town or anything. But definitely when there's, like.

Will

There's nothing I've looked forward to more than the start of tour, like that, like, the anticipation for knowing that I'm about to go see 10 shows in a row or whatever.

Bob Ingersoll

Like, right.

Will

That feeling at that time, nothing greater than that that I. That I've seen.

Bob Ingersoll

Oh, I totally agree. And we would. We. We cherish that because every now and again, you'd walk into a show and from beginning to end, it would be like, oh, my God, you know, and it. Yeah, I mean, some of those Alpine Valley shows in the mid-80s. 84, 5, 6, 7, 8, 89. I went to all of those and got magnificent seats. I was on the third row once, Adam. Back in the day, you could bring your actual camera into a show. And I had a bunch of nice camera equipment. It was a little older, you know, so I had a nice Canon camera with big lenses and stuff. So on the third row, I'm like, you can see Jerry, like, looking at you, his eyebrows moving. And, you know, it was. I mean, it was like the audience was part of the band. And the band say this. And so I. I'm sitting there blissing, and I, I'm. I pulled up, I had a big lens, and I put it on my camera and pulled it up. And Jerry looked at me and. And in the middle of the song, he shakes his head no. And so I'm like, oh, I've disappointed Jerry. Damn it. And so I put the camera down. I took the big lens off because you could take it off and put the smaller lens on, you know, quickly. And then I lifted it back up with a small lens. And Jerry goes like this. And then he poses, you know, he's like. And it's those kind of moments. And I know you probably heard a million stories like that, but it was that, the camaraderie between the audience and the band, the. The understanding of the nuances of what's going on on stage. And I, I don't know. I, I, I say it in the film. Actually, it was, except for Nim, the best times of our lives were at Dead shows and in the parking lot and, like, at the Laundromat in Akron, Ohio. Right? Because during that Akron show, at the Rubber bowl, during that tour, it Rained a lot and our clothes were. Oh, God, it was a mess. And my friend Sean and I were camping, right, so. So you went to a laundromat, like on the day off in Akron and ran into a couple of like three old ladies that were in, doing their laundry, right? And we look like Deadheads, right? Long hair, dread, you know, crazy clothes, Guatemala pants, all that stuff, right? Skateboards. And, and the, these ladies were like, what's your what? You know, nicely. They were very polite and really nice. They're like, what do you got? Why are you here? And told them all about the Dead and the, the Rubber bowl where the Dead were playing. These ladies were like, oh, let us help you do your laundry, you know, and, and it was like. We met old ladies in Akron that had nothing to do with the Dead. That, that got, you know, got some pleasure from seeing us having a good time out, like in America, you know what I mean? We're from Oklahoma. I mean, that's where our home bases were at the time. And, and it was the pure joy of, of that kind of interaction, you know, and it didn't have to be other Deadheads or anything, but just nice people, you know, and when you're nice to people, they're nice back to you, you know, so it was, you know, those were good times. Although that wasn't a really great show. That was the Tom Petty opens and Dylan is, you know, in Tom Petty's band or whatever. And it. I don't know, I just, personally, back in those days, I was way more into just the Dead and didn't need to have an opening band or any of that. And some of those we went to the, you know, we went to shows like the Rainforest Benefit in New York City. But I just, myself, personally, I just prefer straight up two or Three Set Dead show, like a New Year show or whatever. But, but those, those were anomalies, you know, those, those shows with Tom Petty and all that.

Will

Plus, I didn't see a lot of those, but I did see one where Sting was the opener, that was his band, was, was really good. I'm a, I'm a Vinny Caleute drummer fan and.

Bob Ingersoll

Did you see the one in Vegas?

Will

No, which one?

Bob Ingersoll

Oh, that tour with the Dead.

Will

No, I saw him like Buckeye Lake and Soldier Field.

Bob Ingersoll

Oh, yeah, Yeah, I didn't see the Soldier Field, but we went to Buckeye Lake a couple of times. We might have skipped the skim, you know, because we're in the parking lot selling tie dye, right? So sometimes we wouldn't necessarily go in early or whatever, but we did see them in. In Vegas a couple of times with. Who was that? Santan? No, no. Steve Winwood, I believe. Yeah, that was another one of those parking lot scenes. After the show, a lot of people are, you know, not exactly all together after a show. It's like, whoa, where are we? And I had a Volkswagen van, like a lot of my friends, and the pop top, you know, I was like, I fit the stereotypical deadhead, you know, stickers on the back of the car. We got pulled over several times by the police, and

Will

I was so paranoid.

Bob Ingersoll

And I can tell you, in South Carolina, we had. We had a interesting interaction. We were going. Actually, I gave a talk at the International Primate Protection League, and then we were going to Atlanta, you know, because we planned it. We're like, oh, we'll go to IPPL and give the talk. Then we'll drive to Atlanta and see the dead shows. Well, in South Carolina, I drive in the van and it's got like all kinds of stickers on the back, mostly dead and cop car, state trooper comes up and comes up and around us and, you know, surveys us. And then we come over hill and there's two more. And then they come and, you know, of course they pull us over. And my tail light was out. That was their excuse. And it was out. It was. But I had a bulb. So I said, well, I've got an extra bulb. But they're like. By then, they're like, no, we're going to search your car. And I bunches of stuff, our clothes and stuff. Because by that time we weren't selling tie dye. Bell and I were just more touring and does that business. The International Primary Protection League. Talk about Nim and this and that. And. And they went through all the bags, threw all this stuff out, you know, and pulled my pants down, looking in the waistband. And Belle's a court reporter, so she's like, you can't do this. And they're like, hey, we got the guns and the badges. We can do whatever we want. Fortunately, we had no drugs. They could find nothing to bust us for, and. And they ultimately let us go. We went to the first rest area, pulled over, I fixed the tail light, then went to the shows, which were fabulous. Three days, but it was a little unnerving, you know, so those kinds of things. And I'm sure lots of people had even worse experiences than that, you know, so that was minor, relatively speaking, but. But in Vegas, that. That in the parking lot, I went out to My van and wouldn't start. And I knew what was wrong. The coil was messing up, and so I couldn't really think. We had like five people with us, and, and, and I had some. We sold bumper stickers and a bunch of other things like that. So I had all the people in the van get in the, in the driveway to the, to the Silver bowl, you know, people going out and so hold, you know, selling stickers at the same time identifying the Volkswagen vans that were going out and going, hey, man, you got a coil for a 88 van? And, and lo and behold, I mean, I knew this would happen because I've been on tour for eight or nine years. By then I knew there were some resourceful Deadheads out there that were driving really old buses and stuff. And this one dude pulls over and goes, yeah, man, I got like eight of them, you know. So we went through that, and it was so cool because he stopped, pulled over, helped help me install it. And it was a two prong instead of a three prong coil. But. But the, the third prong was just the, the, The. The. The ground. So we just plugged up the, the. The hot and the cold to the, to the coil, and it worked. And so I'm like, hey, man, how much? Because they're usually like 60, 80 bucks, right? You know, catch me some other time. And it was that. That's the kind of thing that drew us to keep on coming back, you know, because we met so many great people in Minneapolis. We met a couple of people that we hadn't had a shower in like four days. And it was like 10 in the morning, and they're like, hey, you guys, we, we live right around the corner. You want to come to our house and take a shower? And we're like, really? We went to these people's houses and took a shower. We, we've stayed at Daryl and Rose. We, I. We met these people in, in Alpine, actually. And, and a couple of years later, we ran into them and we were in Washington, D.C. and they invited us to stay at their house for the couple of shows. And, you know, and they were like serious Deadheads. Like, we were. You know, it were those kind of events that really kept us going.

Advertisement Announcer

Attention all concert lovers. Are you tired of missing out on your favorite shows? Because tickets sell out faster than a studio version? Guitar solo. Say hello to the ultimate solution, the Truckin ticket membership. With the Truckin ticket membership, you'll gain access to the hottest concerts across the country, guaranteed for just $1,500 a year you'll enjoy the freedom to choose any 10 concerts you want in any US city at any venue, no questions asked. Mix and match cities and artists to create your dream concert lineup. You want Dead and company at the Sphere, Cypress Hill at Red Rocks, Willie Nelson at the Ryman Theatre in Nashville. With the Truckin ticket membership, it's no problem. But wait, there's more. Upgrade to our special two ticket best friends package for just $2,500 a year. And bring your concert buddy along for the ride. Because music is always better when shared with a friend. And for the ultimate concert experience, don't miss our exclusive 25 concert jam solo package. For $10,000 a year, you'll receive not only guaranteed tickets to 25 concerts of your choice, but also airfare, hotel accommodations, and rides to and from the venue, making every concert an unforgettable adventure. So why do you settle for FOMO when you can be in the front row at every show? Join the Truckin ticket membership today and elevate your concert going experience this year.

Bob Ingersoll

So we, we just had a fabulous time. I mean I took my mom to a show and at bayfront center in 1988 at the Bayfront center in St. Petersburg. And the show I took her to, the last song was Morning Dew. And the spotlight came and I believe this is on YouTube. You can watch the whole show. And Jerry did one of those tear jerking morning dues with the spotlight just on him. And I turned and looked at my mom, tears rolling down her face and she's wearing a tie dye dress and had, she had helped me sell dye all day, went off and walked around in the parking lot, came back with Dead Base two, you know, because I told her, yeah, they've got this book out there, it's called Dead Bass and it has all the song, you know, because. So, you know, my mom was interested in what the hell I was doing, you know, when I was 20, whatever years old. And so when I went and took a break while she was, I came back with a Grateful Dead California shirt that had a frog on it. My mom collected frogs. My mom wore that shirt all the time when I'd visit. People come up and go, your mom wears that Grateful Dead shirt all the time. She's the hit around here, you know, so.

Will

That's awesome.

Bob Ingersoll

Yeah, you know, it's that kind of thing that you, you can, I took cousins and, and friends, you know, that never experienced it. You know, one of my cousins were at the show at the Boston Garden and, and she's like, first of all. It's. They hadn't even turned the lights out, and people are like, reefing up, you know, and.

Will

Right.

Bob Ingersoll

And the whole place was smoke filled. And she's like, the governor's here. What's. What is going on? There's a governor of Massachusetts. Tom's a Deadhead, you know, and so the Kennedys are all Deadheads. And. And so I'm like, yeah, it's kind of a different world. My cousin's name is Marty, and we had fabulous seats. And she. Now she has those ticket stubs framed in her house on a Boston Garden poster. And next to where it says, you know, all the things that go on at the Garden, they have the Grateful Dead on that poster. And so she has her tickets attached, right, to the Grateful Dead. It's, you know, those kind of things, but mostly for us anyway, was the music, you know, and the love of the music that could make you smile and have dance like you just can't not dance and. Or have emotional reactions so deep that at the first note of a song, it just brings tears to your eyes like morning dew, for example.

Will

For me,

Bob Ingersoll

I could not describe it any more accurately than a cultural phenomenon that I'm glad that we participated in because.

Will

Right.

Bob Ingersoll

We look back and went, ah, we skipped that. We didn't do the Dead, or, you know, and I have a lot of friends of mine that said, you know, because I. Hey, you want to come to the Dead? I got some extra. Oh, no, next time. You know, now when I see those same people or here in the last 15 years since Jerry's been gone or so, they're like, man, I wish I would have went to that show.

Will

Yeah. You know, I've had some friends like that that at the time weren't. Weren't real into it and were reluctant to go. They were doing other things. They were doing life things. And then just have recently come back and said, oh, you know, we should have went with you, because we've recently discovered just how good this music is.

Bob Ingersoll

Right. And now everybody's like. It's like on television shows and everybody, you know, talking about how everybody was a dead head, you know, and all this, you know. So, yeah, it's. It's something that I. I'm really glad that we didn't miss out on. We. We had a great time. Like, this shirt, for example, is a. Is a shirt that a friend of ours in Oklahoma did. Her name was Anne. And this is a Bonner Springs. What's the sand springs in Kansas? June 24th and 25th, 1991. I've seen Mickey with this shirt on playing at another show. So. And I believe sent, you know, obviously a bootleg shirt, but pretty damn good bootleg. And that's a.

Will

That's a great shirt.

Bob Ingersoll

Glows in the dark. So it was that. That culture that, you know, and artists and. And other musicians that appreciated the. All of the. All of the Dead, you know, because go to a show, you're going to hear other people playing in the parking lot before and after. And if. What's that?

Will

That's what I miss them. That's what I miss so much is the drum circles mainly like that. I mean, just being able to walk through and hear different ones coming. And like at the beginning of that Infrared Roses album, for instance, where it's like somebody walking through the lot and you hear, like, trucking coming out of somebody's van and the drum circle starts happening, and then the guy that walks by your ear and says doses, you know, like all of that stuff.

Bob Ingersoll

Yeah, indeed.

Will

It was time and a place.

Bob Ingersoll

It. The. The parking lot scenes now are kind of out so huge and not quite as. Well. I don't know. I guess when I. When we were going to shows that. Until the end, when it got a little nutty and there was, you know, like in Orlando, there were so many people showed up to the show that they were trying to get tear gas and, you know, and so. So there. There's good and bad to that. Too many people into the. You know, and you. You were around at the end.

Will

I was starting to get creek when they broke down the wall and saw the. You know what?

Bob Ingersoll

Yeah, we were at those shows. We actually. Our last shows were in, weren't they? Those shows, the ones that were in before they went. Yeah, right before that last shows before Chicago, that was.

Will

Yeah, that was the last ones.

Bob Ingersoll

Friends of ours had extra tickets to Chicago and we could have gone, but it just. There was some foreboding or something in the air and we weren't feeling it, you know, and Jerry looked terrible. And so we declined. I mean, and now we're. Sometimes we're like, oh, we should have went to those shows. And I'm like, nah, I don't think so. It was just so hard. That tour. That tour was very difficult amongst our Deadhead friends. Was almost as if. And I can remember conversations like, is he gonna die right on stage? You know, that kind of thing. So it was. It was difficult to see and watch because we loved that guy, you know, And I think a lot of us Wished we could have said something or done something. But as Steve Parrish and all the close dead people say, there was nothing we could do. I mean, we tried, you know, but you're not, you couldn't. Plus, I don't know, I've been, you know, I've had my times with drugs, you know, can grab you and if you're not, you know, able to step back and take a deep breath and, you know, go, I don't want to die here. It could be difficult. It's just. Imagine if Jerry was still alive today.

Will

Yeah, I was thinking about that.

Bob Ingersoll

Well, yeah, but I mean, it is what it is and the history of it all is what it is now. And I'm just glad we participated and had so much damn fun because that was, you know, Jerry said it, I'm out here to have a good time, you know, and fun is the name of the game. And, and he certainly did give us an opportunity to have a lot of fun. And I'm most grateful to him, the band, all the ticket people, you know, that we sent our envelopes to to get our tickets, the, the roadies, all those. I'm actually a few years ago, Bonham's, an auction house here in town, did Ramrod's estate sale and sold one of Jerry's Travis Bean guitars that sold for like $400,000 and a bunch of other stuff. And Ram Ramrod's mandolin was in that sale. And you can imagine that Jerry had played that mandolin, right? And the, the estimate was pretty low. And at the time my wife has a good job and we, we have, you know, ample amount of money. And, and so we're sitting there and she goes, go ahead bid. So I'm bidding on Ramrod's mandolin. Just bidding is cool. You know, we're in a room full of people that are bidding for $200,000 items and stuff, you know, and, and I got like 850 bucks and the guy goes, hits the hammer and I win. I'm like, whoa, holy cow. So we, we have Ramrod's mandolin and, and you know, and course hundreds of posters and, and as you probably know, I owned a Grateful Dead store during that time that two guys tie dyes turned into a store called Jungle Gems. And we, we sold Grateful Dead merchandise stuff and, and is it officially licensed? Oh yeah, yeah. We, we dealt with the band. So we, we got all the band related stuff, posters and this and that shirts and, and all that Liquid Blue stuff. By that, that time, Liquid Blue by the not early 90s, they had pretty much, you know, we met those liquid blue guys in like 85 or 86 at the Rosemont Horizon when they were first starting. And I. I traded something to them for the. There's a Rainforest Action Network panther tie dye that they had one of their first shirts. And I still have it, actually. And. And that evolved because their stuff is quality.

Will

Yeah.

Bob Ingersoll

Yeah, really. And so we. We sold all that stuff. We didn't sell drug imagery, no pot leaves or any of that stuff. No pipes. And it. It was like a Dead show, A Dead store with Guatemala stuff and African stuff, but none of that, because, you know, behind the scenes, as you. You've seen the film, so, you know what we were all about. We also sponsored the David Gan's Grateful Dead Hour for three or four years. So we kind of indoctrinated Oklahomans into the Grateful Dead. I still have friends that come up to me in Oklahoma and go, oh, my God, I miss Jungle Tim's and your. The Dead Hour and all that. And I'm like, well, you know, I don't really miss retail, but some of those things I miss. And then they're like, well, dude, we've got tapes. We've got your commercial. And I'm like, yeah, so do I, because I was a paper at the time, so. Yeah, but. But we incorporated our, you know, our fun life, the Grateful Dead touring, and. And the music and all of that into the activism. And I mean, I liked Grateful Dead stuff, the shirts and all of that. And. And what better way to get somebody to come in and listen to what you've got to say about saving chimps and. And the chimpanzees that I worked with at the university. And, you know, we played the Grateful Dead in there, and we. We always had great bootlegs and stuff. So people come in to. Just to chit chat, you know, just to come in and talk, you know. And you mentioned infrared roses. We play. We got that when it came out and played it in the store. That. That is. That is some trippy stuff. Yeah, so we sold. We actually sold some music in there as well, so. And we saw Widespread Panic and Dark Star Orchestra and, you know, several other bands things. And. And had my employees talk about our activism, because during that period of time was when I was actually at the Black Beauty Ranch, which you saw in the film, and. And some of that stuff, the. The stuff that was at the Black Beating Ranch, my wife Belle here, she shot most of that. Like the scene where Nim is pushing that barrel around, that was Belle on camera. And I mean, we rolled in there not knowing what was going to happen. And I handed her my, my, my stereo, video camera, Sony video camera that, you know, they got nice by 91 or 92 and, and I showed her how to work it real quick. And as we're driving down the driveway, that van in the, that you see the, the little, the wheel sticker and Jerry face of Jerry, that's, that was my van. I mean, the movie is, I assume, out of sync a little bit, but I handed it to her and said, hey, film until they tell you to stop. And then when they tell you to stop, keep filming, you know, when they walk away. And fortunately they just let us film. And you see where I met Nim for the first time and he runs back and forth and then we're both like, whoa, is that, you know, and then, you know, it was like, it was like an old, old friends.

Will

So the name of the film, it's Project Nim.

Bob Ingersoll

Yeah, that's, that's it.

Will

I gave it a viewing and it's, it's amazing. It's, it's a little bit sad, it's a little bit funny. It's, it's definitely enlightening. And yeah, I can't say enough, I recommend it to anybody to definitely view this and the work that you do in it. You definitely see the relationship between you. There's a few people that have a relationship with Nim before you come along, and then when you come along you can see the difference. And it's like Han and Chewie or something, I don't know. But the way you like it really came across a difference. And you know, documentaries are made however they're made and the viewpoint is whoever's making the documentary obviously, but, but you could definitely see that there was a connection between you two specifically.

Bob Ingersoll

Well, I appreciate that. I, I do think that it, we, we'd been approached a lot by other people to do, you know, films and documentaries about my relationship with Nim, but we, we resisted that for a long time. And then a woman named Elizabeth Hess came along and wrote a book called Project Nim and I participated in that. Well, first of all, I like Elizabeth and I knew that she was going to do a good job and I knew she was going to write the book anyway, and so I wanted to participate. And then shortly after the book came out, and I believe. What, 19. No, no, 2008, I believe is when the book came out. And very shortly after that, two, two Academy Academy Award winning producer named Simon Chin from The uk who did man on Wire and Searching for Sugarman, amongst other things. Extraordinarily talented producer and really awesome dude. We're like friends now. Actually about two and a half years ago we were in London to see. To do a book release. I've just recently written a couple of books and the first book, we were doing a book release release party and in, you know, we made it so that Billy String shows and the book stuff happened at the same time, coincidentally.

Will

Yes.

Bob Ingersoll

Not really, but. But we went to a Billy show and I contacted Simon. I'm like, hey, Simon, we got some extra tickets. You want to come? So Simon came and saw Billy and he even said, hey, what label is he on? And I'm like, he's on Warner. I think he, oh, I've got a deal with Warner. So, you know, who knows? But. But he loved Billy and, and, but more importantly, back to Project Nim, he. He had done Man On Wire, so. And before it had won an Academy Award, they contacted us about doing Project Nim and so I said, well, I don't know, what about James Marsh, who's the director, and he did Theory of Everything and man on Wire. So we went to see Man On Wire like a couple of weeks or a month or so before it won the Academy Award. And Bell and I were like, these guys want to make a movie about. Yeah, we, you know, so they're extremely talented and we knew that they were, they were the guys. And then we, you know, we sort of negotiated. It was more like a handshake, friendly conversation. And I knew they were, you know, I'm like, you guys are going to be the one. I'm actually. James Marsh has been in the set right here while we negotiated the deal. And, and it's, I think, is it Rotten Tomatoes? Is that what it's called? Rotten tomatoes. Hot. Some 17th best documentary of all time, apparently so. And I get, I get letters and emails from all over the world. Once got a. Emails from Iran from young female students at the University of Tehran that said to me, you know, you're our hero. And I'm like, oh, please stop. You're my hero, ladies, you're going to school, you're going to university in Iran, passing around a bootleg copy of Project Nim amongst their animal rights group in Tehran, risking their lives to be able to view a film. So it's that sort of thing that gives you that kind, you know, because I do mention the dead in the film, you know, and I do some lyric lyrics kind of just came out of my brain at the right moment. I. Not that I practice, but Bell and I, we talked about, you know, what possibly was going to be asked and how I would, you know, do the interviews. And I. A lot of my friends are like, man, you're a natural. And I. I just think that I. I've lived it. It's authentic. Like, now I'm. I don't have no script or anything. We're just having a conversation, but I've lived all of this stuff enough to be able to. To express it in the way that I think people understand. And when there's a passion for something. Yeah, indeed. And I think that that passion is the same sort of passion, because I think that's what. The way I say it in the film, I say, well, you know, I think it's like word for word. I mean, I don't know. I'm a Deadhead, and I think I might rather hang out with Nim than Jerry. And for me, that's saying something, you know, and that. And that's like, you know, that's having two things that huge in your life that feels like it's that important to you. I feel really blessed and very lucky to have been able to have that in my life and still pursue it. I mean, we still see. We still see, like I said, Dead and Company and we've. You know, we go to Sweetwater, up up in Marin, to Bobby's club and saw Molly total there. Seen Bobby there a couple of times. And. And still, you know, we still participate. And, you know, Reed Mathis is. Is as a friend. And when I had Jungle Gems, we brought David Nelson Band to Norman. I'm, like, sitting in my house in Oklahoma, which I still own the house. David Nelson sitting in my house. And I've got albums that I bought when I was 17 years old of the new writers. It's like, well, this is so surreal. I can't. Oh. So much so that I forgot to get him to sign the albums, you know, but it was. It was one of those things that even Nelson and Barry, Celeste and the band, they understood my trip. You know, Barry, actually, I showed him like, three and a half hours of the. Some of the footage that you saw on Project Nim from the Oklahoma days. I showed all that to him. So it's something that you can see the passion when. In. What's more like love, actually, to be honest with you. I mean, and when you see love on film like that, it's not. It's not hard to recognize. And I think that Like I said, those students in Tehran and, and many hundreds of people that have written to me over the years, you know, asking me, how do I get to be you? And I, I'm like, well, you have to find something you love and pursue it and, and don't take no for an answer and do the best you can to keep your chin up, even when things are down. Because believe me, there were a lot of not so fun times. I mean, I wasn't always a movie star. You know what I mean? So, you know, I had to, I had to do some things that, that were not pleasant. I mean, I handed out flyers on our campus one time and got thrown down by the cops and my flyers taken away and, and that sort of thing. But that doesn't happen now. Now they invite me to give talks and show the film at the art museum and this and that. But it's that persistence, because I think you're willing to do a little bit more than you would normally when you know you're doing the right thing and pursuing positive and goals that, that are, are pure. And, and, and that's the other thing about the Grateful Dead that's pure. And, and I think at the, at the root, you know, there, of course, there are all kinds of terrible stories about getting busted and this and that, but at the root of it all is love and understanding and music and getting along and, and all the things that you can't really put your finger on, but you can feel it. You know, you feel it at the show when Free hugs, for example. You know, what better way to express, you know, that sentiment than when you see a sign? I remember the first time I saw one of those signs, free Hugs. I'm like, whoa, dude, that is perfect. You know, so it's that community that, that I, I, I respond to and I hope that other people will, you know, even if you don't necessarily think that Dead and Company is as good as the Dead or the Jerry Band or whatever, that there, there's at the root of all that is the Grateful Dead. And I hope I have as good a time at the sphere as I've ever had at any show I had at, at the Giants and at the baseball field this year for Dead and Company, that final tour or whatever, and up and, and at the Gorge feels the same. You know, it's different, but it's the same. You know, I, I can't.

Will

New cousins, but same family.

Bob Ingersoll

Yeah, indeed. And you know what? You see all these young kids that say things like, well, what was it? Like to see Jerry, you know, and, and it's. Was better. Yeah, it was better.

Will

How did you say it was better without just saying it was better?

Bob Ingersoll

Well, the reality is that thank goodness those kids can get on YouTube and watch full shows and understand what was the root of what is happening now. And although you weren't there, you can still. Yeah, indeed, it ripples out. Exactly. And, and you can, you can still experience it. I mean, you can. You buy a hundred 100 inch screen TV like we got going on here and throw in the great Dead movie, you know, I mean, it's a, it's a wonderful time to be a Deadhead, to be perfectly honest with you. David Lemieux is absolutely phenomenal that I, I have all, all of those discs. It's a, it's a thriving community and, and it's evolved. I mean, unfortunately, we've lost a few along the way and, and that's just the way families are. That happens. You know, it's, it's a, it's an encapsulation of life itself, you know, and, and I love seeing Bobby still carrying on and, and doing, you know, doing as many shows as he does. He could have retired years ago.

Will

I mean, he does a lot of shows.

Bob Ingersoll

He really does. I mean, and he inspired, like, like I said, I'm into Billy Strings. I see the inspiration that Billy gets from Bobby and the ultra respect that Billy pays. You know, Bobby went to Billy's wedding a couple of months ago and played at the wedding, you know, and Billy talks about that in an interview, like with ultra reverence, you know, so, and for the kid, Billy is a kid, 30 something years old, to be able to play with his heroes, you know, it's, it's a cool thing. And, and, and I, I, you know, I, I feel lucky to have lived during this period of time where Jerry and Bob Dylan and, and all the band, Frank Zappa and all the bands that I got to see, Muddy Waters, all that stuff, that background for all of this. I mean, Belle and I have been lucky. We, we go to as many shows as we can and we mix it up. I mean, we went to see Madonna here a couple of years ago. We went to the Taylor Swift shows in Los Angeles. We didn't pay a lot of money, but because we got in the lottery. But I tell you, those kids that go to that show, they might not be Deadheads, but they've got that same kind of passion for Taylor and Taylor's music and Taylor's message that, that we kind of have and so even though I don't, I'm not, you know, I couldn't name one Taylor song. I, I'm glad I went. And it's a different cultural experience, but it is indeed something that those young kids can reach out to and, and find some. A space, you know, that they can identify with. And, and I, well, it's different. But you know what? It's not a competition. Music's not a competition. It's about what you like. I mean, I'm telling you, I saw literally hundreds and hundreds of people singing. I looked around and like, it was. Everybody was singing along. They knew every word. You got to, you got to respect that. And, and you see no doubt that they're like turn to their moms crying, you know. So I, I, I, I. It's, it's, you know, like I said, I think that music isn't a competition. And it's about, I mean, and Taylor can play, you know, she can write songs. It might not be what, you know, necessarily our cup of tea, but, but she definitely has got something going on. But, you know, like I said, I got the lucky. I got to see, you know, see bands that, you know, Clapton with Freddie King and all that in the 70s, you know.

Will

You mentioned Zappa. Like, what? I'm a massive Zappa fan. Like, what. What era of Zappa were you seeing Zappa?

Bob Ingersoll

Oh, I saw zappa in the 70s and into the, you know, and towards the end. But God, when was that? Zappa show was probably around 78 or so. Terry Bozie was at the height of his powers. I mean, his band was like that giant band we saw. I saw him like three different times. I got lucky. And when I was 14, my best friend's older brother was into Zappa. So he had those early, you know, like the Only in it for the Money and all those early hours.

Will

That's the best one.

Bob Ingersoll

And school those little kids on Zappa, you know, and, and when you listen to that stuff, you, you appreciate the genius of. Because every single thing that goes on, on the Zappa record is written down on a piece of paper. And, and it's like, whoa, he, he was super phenomenal. I mean, we, we saw Little Feet on New Year's Eve in 1979 with Lowell George and Bonnie Ray. I mean, I've hung out with RL Burnside and the North Mississippi All Stars and all that during that time that I had the Grateful Dead store because that kind of opened the doors for me to be able to have, have a connection to promoters and this and that. And so I just feel very lucky because music is at the key to all that. We have friends that are musicians that have helped us out along the way. The Brian Haas, who is a Jacob Fred Jazz Odyssey. He has done a number of promotions for us and, and, and several local Oklahoma musicians have. Mike Hosty and, and other folks that play in the Oklahoma City area that have helped us out along the way with the chimp stuff and, and artists. So, uh, and you know, and at the same time you can turn them onto the Dead. I, I gotta say that I bet the first time that, or the first time that he was really immersed in the Grateful Dead. Reed Mathis, who now plays with, you know, almost all the, all the people in the Bay Area that are related with the Dead. He actually plays a lot of Dead. And we, we went to a show recently where most of the songs were Dead stuff. So. And I, I think that, that he might have first really been immersed. Yeah, he was in billion. Immersed in the Grateful Dead music in my store. So. And he was, he was the bass player in Jacob Fred Jazz Odyssey during that period of time. Phenomenal. If you're, if you're not familiar with Reed Mathis. Yeah. Become familiar. He's a fabulous musician. Do you know him?

Will

No, I know the name, but. But I'm not familiar.

Bob Ingersoll

Yeah, he, he's, first of all, he's a great guy and a fabulous musician. He's, I believe he was a concert trained cellist and his, his interpretations of Hendrix and all kinds of stuff. He, like I said he was a bass player, but recently he's been playing six string and we saw him recently with some of the guys from the Animal Liberation Orchestra. The Lebo, I believe is his name. So I mean, obviously we're into the Dead, but we like, Jerry said, you know, music, go out and see people. He did bluegrass, I mean, you know, he did jazz.

Will

Yeah, well, you know, he would, he would play with like, with the new, new writers. He'd play a set and then he'd, you know, and then play like three sets with the Dead and he. And then probably, yeah, then go home and practice banjo or something after that, you know.

Bob Ingersoll

Indeed. And, and I, fortunately I got to actually speak to David Nelson about all those days, you know, and how was it to, you know, I, I said something like, what was it like to like play with Jerry and this and that. He says, dude, I had to go on after Miles Davis, you know, I'm like, whoa, I never even thought about it like that. He said, Yeah, I was the most nervous person on the planet. It was like Miles Davis opens for the New Riders. Holy cow. You know, so. And Bill Graham has a lot of, A lot to, A lot to do with all of that. I mean, he paired together lots of different bands that wouldn't normally go together. Speaking of Bill Graham, in 1988, we were at the New Year shows, my, my friend Sean and I, and we had the flu or something and we had the back door of my van open at Pop Top. And back then the little scooters weren't something that everybody had. And all of a sudden this scooter pulls up behind our van and sticks his head in and goes, hey, you guys, what's going on? And we look up and it's, it's Bill Graham. And we're like, we, you know, we're sitting there drinking tea or whatever and, and we're like tripping. We're like, bill, how you, you know, it's like he shakes our hand, he's super nice and asks us we need anything. I'm like, this is the promoter of. This is Bill Graham, for God's sakes. You know, being that cordial and that polite and nice. And we offered him a cup of tea. He's like, no, no, you know, it's all good. It was that kind of a scene that, you know, I've heard a lot of stories about Bill Graham this and that, but my experience with Bill Graham was super awesome.

Will

I've heard some of those hard ass stories.

Bob Ingersoll

Yeah, yeah. He was like kind of into the money or whatever, apparently. But you know, I get it because I promoted shows and you know, promoting shows is no fun. But fortunately for me, I, I, you know, we made money and then all the profits we gave back to the bands. We, you know, like I said, we did new writers and we did, I mean, not new writers. David Nelson Band. And we did Guitar Shorty once or twice. And the Swag, which is a band based in Missouri that's like a Dead cover band. So we, we tried to expose as many people as we could to what we were doing and worked that chimp activism into the whole scene because it just made sense to me that, well, if I'm into the, if I'm into these two things that much, I can blend them together in a way that seems. And it was, it was authentic because I'm really this guy, you know. But when you see the film, even I, when I see the film, and I've seen it hundreds of times now because, you know, it's played around and I've done lots of film festivals and screenings and this and that. We went to Edinburgh and, and the Toronto Film Festival, Boston, you know, all kinds of places, Bell and I, and, and we sit there and go, whoa, it's such a trip to see yourself on a big screen, you know, so. But it helped and it helped our chimp friends. Things are, are not perfect, but they're better. And most of the chimps in the United States, not all, but most are in sanctuaries now or zoos, which, you know, I'm not a big fan of zoos, but, but it is what it is and they get treated with respect and they're not used as pin cushions in medical labs anymore. And that's not been going on for quite some time. Yeah, I still helped run a monkey sanctuary in Oklahoma called the Oklahoma Primate Sanctuary, which we started during the time before the movie and all that, when we were running the store because I had a little extra money we could do that. It's now 30, over 30 years old. We have 120 something monkeys. I, I'm on the board of directors of a, of an animal sanctuary called Oliver and Friends in Oklahoma as well. So I, I, you know, and they're Deadheads, actually. The, the founders, you know, Jenny and Jason. So, you know, I walk into their house, they got Dylan posters and, you know, and they're, they're into the dead as well, so that's great. Yeah. And they're like most people. What's that really messed up? Animals. Animals there. Yeah, we, we take in cows with three legs and stuff like that. We get prosthetic legs made for them and stuff. We, we do the hard cases, but it's, it's that passion, you know, and Deadheads, if, if it isn't, you know, if you can't say anything about them, you can definitely say that they're passionate about what they're into and, and it carries across into their lives. Jerry said it himself, he's like, man, every, you never know. You know, doctors, lawyers, mayors, governors, you know, Vice president Jimmy. What's that?

Will

Vice presidents.

Bob Ingersoll

Yeah. Vice presidents. Yeah. Al Gore. Yeah. Yeah, indeed. So, so it, it, it's something that we all can, we can kind of glom onto and, and respect one another in a way, you know, that, you know, we don't have to hate each other. You know, love is a lot, a lot better than hate. You know, Be kind all the time, all that. I mean, I'll never forget the first time I saw Be Kind Bumper Stickers. It was like, whoa, how cool is this? Yeah, I mean, we. We toured.

Will

Simple. Great idea.

Bob Ingersoll

Yeah, indeed. It's like, you know, be kind all the time. We. We toured during the time when Nelson Mandela was still in jail, so we had a. We gave away abolish apartheid stickers and this and that. So. So besides the music, you. You can bring a little bit of that social justice and environmental justice and. And racial. And, you know, all the kind of things that. That we hope to solve, you know, and getting along is a lot better than not getting along, you know, and finding some common ground and. And working from there. Because I. When you talk to somebody instead of yelling at them or writing nasty messages to them or people that you don't even know, that that's not helpful. And I. I hope that, you know, our. You know, and Bobby and the band now Dead and Company, they're involved in getting out the vote and making, you know, getting involved in your life, because this is our life. So. So anyway, yeah, we've. I can't tell you how much fun we've had here in San Francisco in the last 18 years. I don't know. I can't even tell you how many times we've been to the Fillmore or to. To the Great American Music hall or to. What's the. Or the Orpheum. Is that the name of that place? Yeah, the Orpheum or Bobby's Place or the Warfield or. Or Phil's Club before it closed, you know, and. And actually running into, you know, like, Phil, you know, who is an awesome gentleman. You know, I've gotten into Sign. He put out a book a couple of years ago. I went and, you know, of course, stood in line and got to meet Phil. We met Bobby a couple of times.

Will

Is that Searching for the Sound?

Bob Ingersoll

Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. That's exactly right.

Will

I love that book. That was one of all the Dead books. That was one of. That one. And Mickey Hart's book were like, my favorites.

Bob Ingersoll

Yeah. I also, like, there's another one by one of the roadies. I forget which one it is, but it's pretty good too, you know, and everyone has their own perspective. We run into Steve Parish and Number of Times and. And Mountain Girl and. And also Donna is what. You know, they do a lot of benefits around here, so we're like, yeah, let's go to that benefit. I'm just glad to be able to speak to you about all this and. And hope that those people out there that are going to shows you know, show all the kindness. And I, I, I, I'd be perfectly honest with you. I, I've always had good times at, at music events. And like I said, the Billy String scene is very similar and there's a lot of crossover. You meet a lot of deadheads that were like, you know, we'll talk dead when we're in the line. Wait for posters or whatever. So. And the music is, is inspiring and joyful, you know.

Will

You said that you have a book out or coming out.

Bob Ingersoll

Yeah, I do have a book out. Actually, one of the books I have right here is our first book, which is called Primatology, Ethics and Trauma. The Oklahoma Chimp Studies. They're academic books, but there's, there's a lot in here that is not academic necessarily. So we approach this from an academic perspective. And the next book is coming out very soon. This one you can get on Amazon or from our publisher Routledge, which is R O U T L E D G E. Routledge is a publishing company and academic publishing company in the uk. Our next book, I believe is, is up for presale, maybe on Amazon. And it's called Trauma Insentient Beings. The Nature Nurture. Nim. And it's coming out, I think, in June. And this is actually a picture of me on the COVID That's me right there. Wherever. Right there.

Will

And that's the less furry one.

Bob Ingersoll

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's Washoe right there. Who is the first signing chimp. And we're sitting there signing. That's the sign for what? So I'm going, what? And she's about to sign, you know, what she wants, which I might have some, something under my foot or whatever. And the, the next book has a picture of me being groomed. It's. The next book has a color picture on the COVID and it's got a picture of Nemen and I. And he had accidentally scratched me, like, right, I believe, right here on the side of my face. And, and as soon as he did it, he like. And so the pictures, him about to groom my face to make sure I'm okay. It's really. You've seen the film, so you know that there's some remarkable footage in that film. And even if you're not into any of this stuff, if you just see the 10 or 15 minutes of, of a footage in the film that's Nim and I interacting, you'll. You'll have a different opinion about the relationship that you can have with another animal and maybe even change your mind about, you know, how animals you know, interact with the world. You know, I wasn't always a vegan or vegetarian, but over the years I've, I've come to realize that animals just like us, you know, and especially chimps. And since I got a chance to work with chimps, it has been very eye opening. I mean, I, I gave a talk in like 1983 or 84 at A, a elementary school called Little Ax outside of Norman, Oklahoma. And after the talk, this kid came up to me and he said, Mr. Ingersoll, do you eat meat? And I was like, man, come on, you know, because it was about lunchtime and I hadn't really thought about it like that. And I said, yeah. And he said, well, how do you expect me to believe anything you say about chimps if you don't care about cows and pigs and goats and, and at that moment I realized, well, you know, if I'm going to be this guy that's going to, you know, talk about animals and protecting animals and being kind to animals, I can't eat the other animals, you know, and I didn't have anything for this kid, you know, So I said, what do your parents do? You know, dad was a doctor, his mom was a college professor or something. But, but it was like that kid was like asking me some of the really, you know, important questions for me to be able to figure out before I would become this guy that's sitting right here. I mean, I'm not telling anybody to do anything in their lives, but if you, you know, you have to do what you have to do about all that. I'm, you know, I'm vegan, but I'm not going to browbeat you about it. But when you see that footage of me and them interacting, it's pretty damn eye opening, I think. And I think that you'll agree, Will, that, that it's, it's powerful. And, and now that I farm animals, I've even had my eyes opened about that sort of thing, you know, we have. Yeah.

Will

I was going to ask you, how is your, does that change your relationship in the cognitive or communicative skills of, of other animals?

Bob Ingersoll

You know, I'm not as good at it. I mean, I can deal with apes for, you know, chimps and now orangs. I've worked with the rings a little bit and, and now that I've been around Jason and, and Jenny, their relationship with these animals is remarkable. And you know, you've seen the footage of like ducks that once they get to know their owner, they come up and Hug and stuff. And that, that's the kind of thing I've, I've witnessed. And we have animals that, like I said, that are in dire situations. Three legged cow that we built. We. I say we in the executive we. I'm a board member, but I don't do the work. And I gotta say it's the volunteers at our, our sanctuary that the, the farm animal sanctuary, Oliver and friends that do all the hard stuff. And mostly Jenny and Jason and, and you see the, the appreciation of the animals because they know they're getting helped by humans. And, and I can stand back and just see the same sort of thing you see with Nem and I in their relationships. And at the monkey sanctuary, what we do is we, we take animals from. Mostly from labs now. We take, we have some pets, ex pets, which we, we don't recommend. Do not get a monkey for a pet. It's a bad idea. And we'll end up being involved in the equation. We really don't want to rescue another pet. We'd rather work on the ones that are in labs right now. And what we do is we, we integrate lab monkeys into groups of other monkeys and we try to let them be monkeys as best we can. Sometimes we have to teach them or we have to show them other monkeys that have gone through the same thing. So it's, it, it, it's very fulfilling work, I gotta say, but sometimes it's hard. And one of the things about Grateful Dead Tour back then, even, because we've been running that monkey sanctuary for over 30 years, it's like, whoa. I get to, I get to decompress a little bit and just let, let the air out, you know, and go. And, you know, I mean, Bell and I attended some shows at Shoreline. Actually, when we first got together, we were at a Shoreline show, I believe. In 91, right? In 91. And, and we were like, we were at the Boston Garden. We're a little bit, you know, like, whoa. And at the break, we couldn't get up. We're like, no, no, I don't think I'm gonna walk right now. We're all good. And, and I, I'm kind of, I don't sound like it, but I'm kind of shy when it comes to, like, I like the Bell. But I wasn't, I wasn't, wasn't able to figure out how to say that to her, you know, because I thought she was out of my league. And so during that break, I, I turned to her and I don't know, it Just popped out. I'm like, I want to kiss you. And she looked at me like, what? You know, And I said, yeah. And she said, well, you know, maybe not now. Not right now. But I said, well, how about a rain check? And a couple of days later, we were at. We went to Yosemite and. And. And that, you know, and then I. We. We camped there. And I looked down the camper vans. You've probably been in one. There's a bed up on the top and a bed on the bottom. And I. In the morning, I looked down and said, hey, how about that rain check? So I bounce. She said, okay. And we kissed one time. And then that was it. We were together. I mean, we were adults, so, you know, nothing really happened except a kiss. And then that day, we're driving through that, you know, we got up and, you know, rustled up our campground and this and that, and driving into Yosemite for the first time. For me, it was just a couple of days after the Shoreline Run, and the sign on the. The. On the. The ranger. The ranger station where you pay to get in, it had a. It had a sign, a chalkboard, and there were Grateful Dead bears drawn on there in chalk. And then it says, have a Grateful Day, you know, and it's that kind of. That's one of the things about the Grateful Dead that. It's like a secret little society, and people that didn't know about the Grateful Dead had no idea what that meant. But when we pulled up there, we busted out laughing. I. I took a picture of it because it was so cool and still have it somewhere. I mean, that's the kind of thing that. That. Tales from the Lot. That's what this is all about. You know, it's those kind of experiences that. And I'm sure other people listening went, oh, yeah, I remember that. You know, it's. It's the beauty, the camaraderie of it all. It's the symbolism, the little steelies. You know, you see one, and you're like, oh, you know, you walk by somebody with a dead shirt on. You just, hey, cool shirt. You know, no one else knows. It's. It's a cool thing. And. And now it's a cultural phenomenon. It's part of America, you know, it's part of our history, you know, And. And that's pretty cool. And you're part of it now. You're. You're. You're archiving in the canon and stories that would otherwise be lost, you know, and given those folks like me an opportunity to tell their truths and their experiences and, and bring it all together. And like Belle said in the canon of the Grateful Dead, you know, that that's pretty damn cool.

Will

Now, that's how this started. I was trying to remember some stories and. And I couldn't remember everything, so I thought, well, maybe I'll talk to some people and it'll jog my memory of. Of the things that I didn't saw.

Bob Ingersoll

And, yeah, it's a wonderful thing. We watched a couple of your shows. It's a. It's a really cool thing that you're doing. And I. I'm most grateful that. That I get to do this and that others, you know, have the same opportunity. So, I mean, if. If you've been reluctant to be on Will's show, jump in there. This. It's. It's cool. And I'm sure you. A lot of people out there got even cooler stories than I do, but I'm just one person in this whole big, you know, millions of people now are, you know, have been to Dead shows and, and have experiences and. And I think it's important. So I, I'm most grateful for you allowing us to talk about the chimps and, and our work that we do now and how it's intertwined all the way historically, back to the beginning. I mean, I. I can remember my first Dead albums back when I was like 16, 17 years old. I had new writers albums, actually, first, because I was. I was a little bit more into that, The Birds and that kind of thing. So the new writers appealed to me in a. In a way. I. I didn't understand the Grateful Dead because.

Will

Grateful Dead.

Bob Ingersoll

What does that mean? You know, but then I heard Working Man's a Day and actually the. The Skull and Roses album and, you know, Bears Bear's choice. One of my favorites, actually. So. And I have all the albums and all the, you know, like I said, paraphernalia. I got hats and shirts, posters, all the stuff. All of that stuff, you know, But. But it's a. It's a. It's a. It's a good thing. And I'm. I'm actually proud to say that I'm a Deadhead, and. And I. I don't regret a minute. Yeah, like Bell said, we don't regret a minute of it. And, uh, it's a real honor to be on your show because, uh, I think you're doing a service for a lot of folks that have a lot to say that don't otherwise have a place to do it. You know, so I appreciate that.

Will

Thank you.

Bob Ingersoll

Yeah, absolutely.

Will

And thanks. Thank you, Bob, for taking the time out of your day and Bell for joining in. I really appreciate both of you joining in and telling your story.

Bob Ingersoll

Absolutely. And, you know, I'm on Facebook and Instagram and all that stuff. If you guys want to know more about our work with the animals, you know, please feel free to contact me. I. I've even had, like, Scott Guberman, who had plays with Phil. He wrote to me once and said, oh, my God, I saw your movie. Holy cow. I've had people that wrote to me that are now on the board of directors of Animal sanctuaries that wrote to me and went, how do I get to do that? And so I've helped them along the way. Turns out one of them was a Deadhead. And the first thing he wrote to me in the email was, hey, man, you make Deadheads look really good.

Will

Good.

Bob Ingersoll

And I laugh at that. But. But, you know, most Deadheads that I know are out there doing good stuff, doing good work, you know, adding to their community and. And doing important. Other than being Deadheads. They're doing really important work that I think that bodes well for our community because I think that. That, you know, you have to participate, and Deadheads certainly participate, you know.

Will

Oh, yeah, no doubt.

Bob Ingersoll

So, anyway, thanks a lot, Will. I appreciate it, and feel free to contact anytime. All right.

Will

Thank you, bud. Hey, thanks so much for tuning in. If you enjoyed what you heard today, please consider hitting the subscribe button and leaving a comment. Your feedback and engagement really goes a long way to supporting and growing the show. And really, really, this is your show with your stories. So if you have a story or even a few of them from seeing Grateful Dead shows or experiences of how the band has impacted your life in some way, I'd love to hear from you and have you on. My email is willails from the lot.org reach out, or you could use the new text me feature that's in the show notes. You can easily reach out and connect with me directly that way. And don't forget to follow on Facebook for updates and exclusive content. And for those who prefer watching, full videos of every episode are available on my YouTube channel. So thanks again and please be kind to yourself and others.