Tristan Hughes

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Tristan Hughes

The Odyssey an epic poem of one man's ten year journey home. Last time on the Ancients, we followed Odysseus from the smoking ruins of Troy through lands of cannibal giants, sorceresses and a journey to the underworld, only to leave him with a terrible prophecy and a home in chaos. Today we plunge into the most deadly part of the journey, the Sea of Monsters. As Odysseus races towards Ithaca, past Sirens, a whirlpool through shipwreck and divine anger. Then finally, he arrives to a palace overrun with prison predatory suitors who have spent years devouring Odysseus wealth and courting his wife Penelope. The worst guests imaginable. We will trace Odysseus secret return under the goddess Athena's disguise, his reunion with his son Telemachus, and the build up to one of the grisliest climaxes in Greek myth, the slaughter of the suitors. And throughout, we see how this landscape of slavery, of raiding and hostage taking were part of how Mycenaean Bronze Age power worked in the real world. I'm your host, Tristan Hughes. And guiding us once more through these bitter bloody waters is the classicist and novelist Emily Hauser. Welcome to the Ancients, Emily. Great to have you back on the show.

Emily Hauser

Wonderful to be back.

Tristan Hughes

It's almost as if we've just finished recording the other one.

Emily Hauser

It really is deja vu.

Tristan Hughes

But we are now halfway through the story of the Odyssey and we can say that because this is literally the halfway point in the epic story.

Emily Hauser

Yeah, well, we're right at the kind of middle of those 24 books of the Odyssey. We're at kind of the end of book 11. We've got a little bit more adventuring to do before Odysseus is going to land back on Ithaca, which he does kind of at that halfway point. But you know, we're kind of closing in now on the final goal and

Tristan Hughes

to clarify so people know exactly what we're talking about. So this second half of the story of the Odyssey, it is very much, it's preparing you for Odysseus, his return to Ithaca, which should be like this great homecoming. But also it's not the loveliest homecoming, is it? It soon becomes a very grisly episode.

Emily Hauser

At the same time, yeah, he's definitely got problems ahead. So you might sort of think that, okay, well, Odysseus gets home halfway through the epic. What on earth are we going to for the rest of the epic? But he has got plenty to keep him busy. He has the massive problem of the suitors, who are 108 men from around Ithaca and neighbouring islands who in his absence while he's been away for 10 years in the Trojan War, 10 years. On his way home, they have come into his house, into his palace, they have kind of eaten all his food, eaten him out of house and home, been trying to persuade his wife to marry them, persuade her to accept that Odysseus is Dead. And so he's got all of them to kind of get through as well as, of course, making sure that everybody is back on his side again.

Tristan Hughes

And this is not just the. The telling off of the suitors. This isn't the exiling of the suitors. This is the slaughter of the suitors, isn't it?

Emily Hauser

They're not going to get just a kind of slap on the wrist. This is. This is absolutely. This is. They are all going to get killed in a pretty kind of major bloodbath. And not many people think of the end of the Odyssey as kind of ending with a bloodbath, but it really does. It's. It's. It's a pretty vicious ending.

Tristan Hughes

And that's what we're going to build up to Absolutely. In the episode today. But first off, for anyone watching or listening who is coming into this episode cold, make sure you do go and listen to the first episode. But if you haven't. Shall we just summarize where we've got up to by the end of book 12 of the Odyssey? So the halfway point. So we've covered some big themes, some big events so far.

Emily Hauser

Yeah, well, we've actually got up to the end of book 11.

Tristan Hughes

Sorry, book 11.

Emily Hauser

Yeah, no, but we've done a good chunk of the poem. So what we're looking at with the odyssey is about 24 books of poetry and we're sort of about hitting the halfway point. We've had Odysseus, he started out on Calypso's island. That's where we first met him at the beginning of the Odyssey. We've seen his son Telemachus go on his own mini voyage. We've seen Odysseus then being released, released from Calypso's island. He gets into a storm. He gets washed up on the island of the Phaeacians, who are incredibly hospitable, treat him really nicely. And in return he gives them the song of his own voyages as he kind of got there. And so we then get the tale of everything that happened to him from Troy, the famous episode of the Cyclops of Circe. We get all of that told by Odysseus. And then he ultimately ventures to the underworld.

Tristan Hughes

It's the underworld where we left him, wasn't it?

Emily Hauser

That's where we left him. Exactly. On the shore of the underworld, communing with the spirits of the dead and getting his directions for his way home.

Tristan Hughes

Yes. So what have the dead? And is Tiresias the prophet in particular, isn't it? What has Tiresias just revealed to Odysseus.

Emily Hauser

Yeah, well, Tiresias hasn't been hugely helpful if he was looking for a kind of Google Maps equivalent of how to get back to Ithaca. So he hasn't given him that. But what he has told him is that sticky situation that, you know, we now know about with the suitors, the fact that Penelope is still waiting, but that Odysseus needs to really get back quite sharpish in order to make sure that he can reinstate himself as king of Ithaca. And he also tells him that he's got another voyage in his future. Once he gets back to Ithaca, he's got to go traveling again. So this is very much a kind of telling us about what's going to happen in the Odyssey, but also telling us that Odysseus is someone perhaps who can never really truly come home.

Tristan Hughes

Oh, gosh. Prophetic, isn't it? And he still has his crew at this time.

Emily Hauser

So at this point, we're sort of heading into kind of the end of the voyage. He still does have some of his crew.

Tristan Hughes

Some of his crew, yeah.

Emily Hauser

I mean, we've kind of mislaid a few on various adventures. But, you know, we do still have some of them. However, that is about to get seriously reduced. And we've got a monster lying in wait in order to do that. And we've also got a kind of pretty serious kind of trespass that they do. A sacrilege. Exactly. That the crew do themselves.

Tristan Hughes

Well, the last thing before we now kind of explore those next key events that you did mention in the first episode, but I want to bring it up again because it's so interesting, especially when we look at the figure of Odysseus and how he's portrayed is this idea of him as a hero and how the ancient Greeks would have viewed him as a hero, because it isn't just just pure bare bones idolizing this figure. This is also a figure who is quite. For those associated with him, it's not going to be plain sailing.

Emily Hauser

It's not. And in fact, the fact that he kind of brings destruction to his crew is something that is a really strong theme throughout the Odyssey. Because as the Odyssey opens, it says Odysseus is striving for the return of his companions. You know, so the fact that he fails to get them home is actually a really big part of Odysseus's story. It's something that as a hero, you are someone who is probably going to be, because you're such a kind of big figure, because you have emotions and ambitions that cannot kind of be contained. You can be very destructive to the people around you. And it's Odysseus ambition to get back to Ithaca pretty much at all costs. Does it? That is what ultimately then costs him all of his men.

Tristan Hughes

Absolutely. And one other thing that we'll be doing as this chat goes on is yes, we'll be largely talking about the stories and these figures from the mythology, man and myth, beasts and so on, but also exploring from time to time the real life locations that become linked to these key events. We've already mentioned, we mentioned places like, is it Calypso on Malta, the Phaeacians on Corfu, the river Acheron, which is actually a river today in northwest Greece.

Emily Hauser

Yep, exactly.

Tristan Hughes

And there are several more locations as well for the events that we're going to cover that people later associated with that actually being the place of the sirens of Circe and so on.

Emily Hauser

Well, that's the thing, is that when Odysseus is kind of going on his voyage, it is a voyage through geography. Right. The poet is describing islands, he's describing natural features. And so I think throughout history people have been so beguiled by the idea that this might be a real place and, and have kind of gone on their mini odyssey trying to find out where these places are. So there are absolutely ways that we can match up what kind of later people thought might be the original places of the Odyssey.

Tristan Hughes

So how did Rome begin? With a throne, a triumph or a murder between brothers? Well, according to legend, the mighty city was founded by the twin sons of Mars, Romulus and Remus, abandoned as infants, suckled by a she wolf and destined for greatness until ambition poisoned their bond. I'm Tristan Hughes and I cannot wait to get into the explosive story of Romulus and Remus on the Ancients Live tour in Australia and New Zealand this August, I'm going to be joined by the fantastic Jeremy Armstrong. He's a professor of ancient history and an expert on early Rome. And together we'll follow the myth from divine origins to blood soaked founding legends, teasing apart what the Romans believed, what archaeology can actually tell us, and how a city built on stories became one of the greatest powers in history. Tickets are on sale now. We're coming to Canberra on the 2nd of August and we're going to be in Auckland on the 8th. The tickets, they are selling fast, so book yours now@fane.com au can't wait to see you there. So how should we kick off this story? Where do we begin for the Second half of the Odyssey.

Emily Hauser

Well, we're probably heading out of the underworld, aren't we? We'll get our ships.

Tristan Hughes

We'll.

Emily Hauser

We'll get them back off the beach. We'll say goodbye to the spirits. We've had a little bit of information from the spirits, not just from Tiresias, but also from the kind of triad of Greeks. We've had Achilles, who has done this amazing speech where he says that basically he would rather be the lowest laborer and be alive than be the king of the underworld. So a complete turnaround from the Achilles of the Iliad we've got here. We've got Agamemnon, who tells Odysseus about all of the terrible things that happened to him back home, the fact that he was murdered by Clytemnestra and her lover Aegisthus. And then we've got Ajax, who just sulks and is a bit annoyed that Odysseus won the Armour of Achilles, which is one of those earlier episodes from the Trojan War. However, we draw our ships up, we say goodbye to the spirits, and we go back and Odysseus travels back to Circe's island, and he's got quite an important job to do there. He's got to bury one of his comrades who had a tragic accident before Odysseus left and who actually appeared to him rather kind of tragically as a spirit, as a shade in the underworld, and said, please bury my body.

Tristan Hughes

Did Odysseus already know that he had died or was that revealed to him?

Emily Hauser

It was revealed to him there. So it's a real kind of tragedy that this guy, Elpenor is his name, kind of says, you need to make sure to bury me.

Tristan Hughes

And also, as you mentioned and in the last episode, so Cersei, which, slash, you know, what we call many drugs. Many drugs. Cersei, with a lot of.

Emily Hauser

A lot of knowledge of drugs and

Tristan Hughes

a romantic relationship between Odysseus and Circe develops from that. And then he leaves to go to the underworld and then he's gone back to Cersei's island. He doesn't stay there long. For the second time.

Emily Hauser

No, no. Now he's kind of got his purpose.

Tristan Hughes

He's got his mission.

Emily Hauser

Yeah, he's got. Exactly. And he's got kind of the problem, hasn't he? Because the issue is now that he knows what's happening back on Ithaca, Tiresias the prophet has told him all of the terrible things that are happen. So now his sights have kind of moved from this fantasy world that he's been wandering around with sort of aimlessly, and now he's really kind of sightset back on Ithaca.

Tristan Hughes

And so where does he head off to with his troops, with his men from Cersei's island?

Emily Hauser

So Circe gives him kind of the directions that he needs to carry on and he's got a couple of different adventures ahead of him. We've got, famously, Scylla and Charybdis. So we've got basically a choice between two evils. We've got Charybdis, which is a kind of sucking whirlpool which you can't escape from. And we've got Scyl, a kind of multi headed dog headed monster who kind of lurks in a cave and kind of zooms out and snatches sailors from the ship.

Tristan Hughes

So, and as Cersei said, you have to go past one or two of these.

Emily Hauser

You have to choose one of those. And she advises him that Scylla is probably the better one. We kind of have got to know Odysseus over these episodes. He's going to sacrifice a few men and that's exactly what he does. So he ends up losing six men on the way past Scylla.

Tristan Hughes

So that's where he's got to get to. But do we have the Sirens episode before that?

Emily Hauser

We do. So before we even get there, we've got the Sirens on the way.

Tristan Hughes

Right, let's do that.

Emily Hauser

So the Sirens are really interesting because the Sirens, they are meant to kind of be these ultimate lure to men. And if you basically go past the Sirens, you're not going to be able to resist them. They've got the wreckage of ships kind of around and beneath them. But Odysseus, of course, is ultimately curious. He will not be stopped. And so Circe suggests to him, if you want to hear the song of the Sirens, then what you need to do is you need to get your men to bind you to the mast and then put wax in your ears and then, sorry, put wax in their ears and you don't have wax in your ears. You're going to be going to be hearing everything that they're saying. You're going to be the only one essentially who is going to hear the song of the Sirens and live to tell the tale.

Tristan Hughes

And the Sirens, the later idea is, you know, they're beautiful women, but isn't it in the original they're bird women or something like that?

Emily Hauser

Yeah, they're sort of bird women. So they're sort of edging into this world of monsters that we're seeing with Scylla and Charybdis as well. So, yeah, absolutely. A kind of monstrosity to them. And we know that their voices are very seductive. So what I find fascinating is, well, what is it that a siren would sing? That would be thing that would cause a man to kind of wreck his ship on the rocks? And what it is, is it is his epic. So what the sirens do is they basically present a hero with what he wants above all, which is to be sung of, to be immortalized in song, and therefore to be remembered. And so they basically. What? It's really beautiful. They basically sing of Odysseus, the sacker of cities. They give him epithets, like epithets that Achilles gets, you know, sort of a hero among heroes. And that is the thing that is so tantalizing for a hero to hear.

Tristan Hughes

They don't call him Polytropos, which is what he's described as at the beginning, which is kind of a complicated figure.

Emily Hauser

Yeah, so that's Emily Wilson's translation is complicated for Polytropos, which is a fantastic translation. But, yes, complex, complicated. That's exactly what he is. But they call him a sacker of cities.

Tristan Hughes

The sirens are much more flattering.

Emily Hauser

Well, then they turn him into the hero that he kind of wants to be because at this point, he's very anxious about what his legacy is going to be. He's not back in Ithaca yet. He hasn't secured his legacy as king. So I think, you know, the fact that you hear your own epic being sung to him is ultimately tantalizing.

Tristan Hughes

This is the more narcissistic side of Odysseus coming out, though, right? He's willing to. Yes. Okay. His men have got the wax in their ears, so they can't hear, but he's still willing to steer their ship very near this, very dangerous. These dangerous, mythical creatures on the way to sate his own desire for glory.

Emily Hauser

Absolutely. And like, let's not kind of beat around the bushes also. Other men who've also done that. Right. Because they're all wrecked there as well. So he's part of a kind of group of men who. To whom this is deeply alluring.

Tristan Hughes

And geographically speaking, I said we visit this once in a while. This is very much associated with the. The coastline of Italy, with the Tyrrhenian Sea, isn't it?

Emily Hauser

Yeah, absolutely. So there are sort of legends that associate Cersei with Italy. So there is a mountain there called Monte Chercheo, which is still kind of, in its name, connected to Cersei and then obviously, yes, the Tyrrhenian Sea and then the straits between Sicily and Italy. Often sort of thought of as where May and Charybdis might have been imagined as.

Tristan Hughes

I love that, I love that. Because recently I went to Pestum. I don't know if you've ever been to Pestam.

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I have.

Tristan Hughes

Oh, the great, massive, gorgeous temples, historic temples, you know, but one of the, like the association there, you know, first of all, the ancient Greeks in southern Italy, big presence there and their beliefs. And one of the gates in the big walls that surround Pestum today is called the Porta de Sirena. And supposedly it's very difficult to see today, but right at the top of that gate there's a little relief which supposed shows a siren. So that kind of association. Well, at least the ancient Greeks who lived there probably was a strong thinking that the Sirens lived not too far away from where we were. But once again, I just wanted to bring that in because it's that, that geography link to. Yes, it's mythological, but it's what they thought.

Emily Hauser

But also. Exactly. Later people believing that that was part of the map of where they lived and that they thought that that was so important that they would incorporate that in kind of their daily life.

Tristan Hughes

Absolutely. Well, let's get towards the straight. So the straight of Messina and this is supposedly where Odysseus has that choice.

Emily Hauser

Exactly. This is the fatal choice that Circe

Tristan Hughes

gives him and it's Scylla or crypt, and there's no way around. He has to choose one or the other.

Emily Hauser

He has to choose. Yeah, absolutely. Which is a kind of, you know, beautiful kind of moment of like, you know, really pinning the hero down and being like, what are you going to do in this situation? Yes. So he, he takes Cersei's advice and he, he goes past Scylla and it is this kind of horrible moment of kind of rowing past that cave as fast as you can, the monster kind of snatching out, gobbling up some of his men. It's exactly what we saw happening with the Cyclops when he lost some of his men being eaten by the Cyclops. So this is kind of in some sense a kind of reiteration of something that's happened to the crew before.

Tristan Hughes

And is it this idea of like a three headed monster? Is it three heads or just one head?

Emily Hauser

So it's multiple heads and the barking sounds like a dog is what Homer says.

Tristan Hughes

So I think of Fluffy from Harry

Emily Hauser

Potter and the Lost Stone, but hidden, if that floats your boat, vicious Fluffy. Exactly. Exactly.

Tristan Hughes

And I guess that idea that it portrays is those heads kind of going down again and again on the ships as it's going through the.

Emily Hauser

Exactly. Which is why they've got to row as fast as they can to get through. Yeah.

Tristan Hughes

Okay. And so they lose quite a few men.

Emily Hauser

Yeah, so he loses six men. Six men on his way through. Yeah. And at this point, I'm pretty sure he's only down to one ship left of the ships that he had. So, you know, we're already quite low on men. And that's kind of the point at which they land kind of on their final stop, which is the island of Trinachia and the cattle of the Sun.

Tristan Hughes

And that's interesting. Also, as a throwback to our first episode, you mentioned the first things that he does after leaving Troy is sack a few cities, take, you know, take women as war booty, quite frankly, as captives and the like. So you have to imagine at the beginning, you know, there are several boats full of men, but also captives as well.

Emily Hauser

Yeah, yeah.

Tristan Hughes

All of them, apart from one ship, have been lost by this stage in the journey.

Emily Hauser

Absolutely. That's exactly right. And also, you know, these are. If we think about the men the men have come from Ithaca. These are men whose mothers, whose sisters, whose wives sent them off to war and have been waiting for 20 years for them to come home. And then Odysseus basically kind of does a trade with Scylla and is like, well, I need to get through here to get to Ithaca. And, you know, these are the men I'm going to lose. So you've got to think about what the people of Ithaca are going to think when Odysseus returns. And this is why it's so dangerous for him to return to Ithaca, why he takes so long to kind of return and make sure that everyone's on his side when he does kind of all of that disguise, it's because he has lost all of these people.

Tristan Hughes

Fair enough. So for those on that one ship who have survived Scylla, is it Scylla or Scylla?

Emily Hauser

Either, Whichever you prefer. It's.

Tristan Hughes

Yeah, it's funny how it's spelled Scylla. Where do they end up next?

Emily Hauser

Yeah, so the next and kind of final stop which Circe has told them about is the island of the sun God's cattle called Thrynachia. And basically Circe has told Odysseus that the kind of one and only thing that they need to make sure not to do is not to eat the cattle of the sun.

Tristan Hughes

God and the sun God, Apollo.

Emily Hauser

That is Right. So basically the kind of. There were old gods of the kind of the. What we call the Titans, the kind of the early order of gods. And Helios is one of those. Apollo, then later, as a kind of new God, becomes kind of the sun God, but Helios is the old sun God. Yeah. So these are his. His kind of special cattle and they're just meant to leave them alone. Now, what's really interesting, and we didn't talk about this earlier, but in one episode of the Odyssey, as he's relating his travels earlier, Odysseus talks about an island that he went to, the island of Aeolus, the king of the winds. And he essentially the person who governs the north wind, west wind, south wind, east. He is the one who can make

Tristan Hughes

sure you get home a big deal for sailor.

Emily Hauser

Big deal for someone like Odysseus. And of course, in that episode, he very kindly kind of makes sure that Odysseus has exactly the wind that he needs, that he leaves that out. And the others, he pops them in a bag, ties up the bag and tells Odysseus not to undo the bag. And Odysseus, guarding that bag on his ship, falls asleep. And of course, what do his crew do? Do they think it's full of treasure? They open the bag and Odysseus gets blown all the way back to the island of the winds. So this is a very similar situation where we've got this moment where, okay, the hero has been told he can't do this. If he does this, it's going to be ruin. And what do the crew do? Of course they do it anyway.

Tristan Hughes

So does this reflect badly on Odysseus that he can't control his men, or is this very much a thing that Odysseus did all that he could, but he couldn't control his men?

Emily Hauser

I think at this point it is more of the latter. I think it's more that, you know, they are kind of consigning themselves to their fate, you know, that he does kind of try to warn them. This has already been said and kind of outlined to them as something that will be really fatal if they do it and they just kind of go ahead and do it. So I think at this point we are seeing a leader who is really kind of battling to get his crew home and just, he just can't resist kind of the cruel workings of fate, essentially.

Tristan Hughes

So he sees them cooking up the cattle.

Emily Hauser

Yeah. And it's this horrible scene where as they cook, they sort of make this. These sort of mooing sounds as they're being cooked. It's really, really kind of disturbing.

Tristan Hughes

And does Helios come with a vengeance right there and then whilst they're still on shore? I mean, how does that divine punishment, that divine vengeance that, let's be honest, we know is coming, how is it delivered?

Emily Hauser

Yeah, well, it's delivered, as it often is, in a storm.

Tristan Hughes

It's a storm.

Emily Hauser

Yeah. So, you know, blown off the island again, you know, can't get back home. Everyone wrecked, apart from Odysseus. And yeah, as he's in that storm, he gets blown back into Scylla and Charybdis. And at this point, he goes back to Charybdis. He's all by himself. He's hanging over the whirlpool, holding onto a fig tree that is kind of extending over the whirlpool and manages to get himself just clamp out of that, hold onto a bit of driftwood. And that is the point at which he washes up on Calypso's island.

Tristan Hughes

And how is he described as he holds onto that bit of that?

Emily Hauser

So when he's holding on, he's described as holding on like a bat.

Tristan Hughes

Like a bat. I had no idea about this until you mentioned, just before we started recording, but that is a funny simile.

Emily Hauser

Oh, I love it. Because I just feel like it's that kind of sense of just kind of clinging with your claws to the branch and sort of maybe also that sense of maybe being sort of slightly sort of topsy turvy, upside down and just sort of. But also, you know, that sort of sense of the creature of the night. So I think there's a lot of sort of darkness to this, this episode in Odysseus's life where he doesn't know whether he's going to live or die. And in fact, if we're thinking about bats, when the suitors way, way, way, at the end of the Odyssey as being killed, they go to the underworld squeaking like bats. So we've got bats as kind of here as sort of maybe. Odysseus is quite close to getting killed and it's just. He just gets out of it. He gets onto Calypso's island. And of course, that is actually where we start the Odyssey. We start the Odyssey right in the middle of the action. And the kind of term we use for this is in medias res, in the middle of the action. We start on Calypso's island. So that story, that kind of narration that Odysseus has given us of his travels, it ends with a point that

Tristan Hughes

we started, the Odyssey, and just as you said there. So actually, what we've been talking about with the Cyclops and Circe in the last episode, with the sirens, Scylla and Charybdis and the cattle in this episode, all of that in the story is coming from Odysseus mouth that he is retelling to a king and queen and a princess that he's met along the way. Is it now when we get to Calypso's island that it goes out of that?

Emily Hauser

Exactly. We switch out. And he says, right, you know, I'm going to finish my story here. And that's the point where we then kind of move from Odysseus narration of his adv into, okay, well, what happens next? We are now sitting on the island of the Phaeacians. We are, you know, as close as we think we can get to getting back to Ithaca. They have very good ships. We know this. We've been told this. And all he needs from them is a ship. And if they give that, then Ithaca might once again be within sight, I think.

Tristan Hughes

Let's briefly recap Calypso, because she's such an amazing figure that we should. Because does it also feel that that part of the story, when he's lost all of his crew, when he's been hanging like a bat, when he's washed up, no ship, nothing left on the island eclip. Is it fair to say that this is the lowest point for Odysseus?

Emily Hauser

I mean, there have been many low points.

Tristan Hughes

I know that's why I say the

Emily Hauser

lowest maybe, but I think you're right that it's the lowest because he's lost his crew. And, you know, that's why I would say, you know, we talked about the island of the Winds, where that must have felt so difficult, like the fact that they were actually within sight of Ithaca. Oh, they could see it. And that's when the men opened the Bag of the winds. So, you know, there have been moments of real kind of tragedy, but I think here, because he's lost all of his men and he's kind of really failed in giving them that homecoming, and he's no closer to getting home himself, I think. Yeah, there is probably a real desperation there. And it's why, kind of as the Odyssey opens, when we first see him on Calypso's island, we see him sitting on the shore and weeping, and this really kind of emotive view of a man who's just kind of longing to get home.

Tristan Hughes

And so enter Calypso. Who is Calypso? And what does she do with Odysseus when he ends up stranded on her island?

Emily Hauser

Well, so she's a nymph. She is, you know, a goddess, immortal goddess. She lives alone on this island called Ogija. And she essentially kind of brings him in. She give kind of food and drink, as you would, to kind of a guest, but they also sleep together and they end up kind of spending seven years together of his voyage, of his return. So a long, long time that Odysseus is there now, Odysseus version. And I feel like, you know, it's important we label it Odysseus's version because we get a lot of this from Odysseus, is that she has been keeping him captive and that he hasn't been able to leave because he didn't have the tools that he needed to make a raft. He didn't have a sail. And it is only when after that seven year, Hermes then comes down from Zeus, which is where we start the Odyssey. It's only then that Odysseus is allowed

Tristan Hughes

to get free because this is of course, this is post the event that's made him realize that he needs to get home. And we covered in the last episode how the first time he visits Circe, it's almost like he forgets and he doesn't have that purpose yet because he hasn't had the prophecy from the underworld. Is there actually? Yes, fair enough, it is Odysseus's version. But could there be more truth or least belief behind the story that he did want to get off the island, he simply just couldn't for seven whole years?

Emily Hauser

Yeah, I mean, there is definitely kind of a sense of that, kind of that desperation in that if you're in the middle of the Mediterranean Sea on an island and you don't have the means to build a boat, it is really, really hard to get off. At the same time, we also see Calypso in the Odyssey professing kind of the fact that she would love for Odysseus to stay and that she would make him immortal if he would stay with her. So she obviously also has a vested interest in this. So yes, I think we can kind of see Odysseus as someone, you know, really was kind of wanting to get off. On the other hand, you know, kind of, you know, he hasn't seven years of, of sex with Calypso. You know, I Mean, he hasn't struggled that hard.

Tristan Hughes

It's not been too bad, has it? So in regards to years wise, I mean, how many years have we now covered from Odysseus leaving Ithaca to go for the trojan wars? That's 10 years.

Emily Hauser

Yeah, we got 10 years there. Yeah.

Tristan Hughes

And then up to him now reaching that island of the Phaeacians. The Phaeacians or however you say it after he leaves Calypso's island. How many more years have we covered since then?

Emily Hauser

So we basically have got seven years with Calypso, we've got one year with Circe that he's done on the way. And then kind of the rest of it is probably puzzled together from all of those different stop offs that he does on his way. And by the time we're kind of in the 20th year, that's the point at which he then kind of finally gets back to Ithaca.

Tristan Hughes

And is this the next part of the story? So yeah, he's done his retelling to this king who's given them and the queen who as you said, actually seems to be making more of the decisions. And now he has a fresh ship, the transport to finally get back home. The return.

Emily Hauser

Yeah, the return is about to happen. And that's why, you know, the Phaeacians are so important to him, because they are the moment where he suddenly gets this ship that is going to take him back to Ithaca. And not just that, but these are kind of magic ships because they can move by themselves and they go, the poet says, as swift as a foot. So the kind of idea is you just kind of think where you want to go and they'll, they'll just take you there. So real kind of proper magic ships. And he falls asleep. Of course he kind of falls asleep. You're in this kind of moment where you're transitioning between the fantasy world and then the world of Ithaca. And when he wakes up, they've put him on the shore of Ithaca and they've put all of his treasure in a cave and a mist has kind of been cast over the land. And at first he's not really sure where he's got to and he thinks, oh my gosh, I maybe I've gone to a different island. You know, I'm not back in my island ith. And it's kind of a moment of real worry for him.

Tristan Hughes

But of course it's not the end of the story and the gods will still play a big role in what will happen next. First off, I want to ask about Poseidon, God of the sea, because he's not best pleased with Odysseus since killing his. Is it his son Polyphemus?

Emily Hauser

That's right, yeah.

Tristan Hughes

Yeah. So he's been obviously God of the sea, making sure he can't get home.

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Tristan Hughes

When he finds out that Odysseus has been helped, has actually got home, is he still angry with Odysseus?

Emily Hauser

He is very angry, yes. So Poseidon has a long grudge against Odysseus because of the blinding of his son, the cyclops Polyphemus. And of course, the cyclops cursed Odysseus. So Poseidon takes this very seriously. The fact that the Phaeacians have done this is seen as a massive insult to him. Now, Odysseus at this point is, in fact, although he doesn't know it, safely back on Ithaca. And at this point, Poseidon, I think, as God of the sea, realizes that's kind of the end of his jurisdiction. But what he does do is he takes out his anger against the Phaeacians who helped to deceive. And so when their ship gets back into the harbour of the Phaeacians, it's extraordinary moment where he sort of slams his hand against the side of the ship and it gets turned to stone.

Tristan Hughes

Gosh. And everyone on board gets turned to stone.

Emily Hauser

Yeah. And it's a really kind of horrible moment of basically kind of him, like, interdicting this seafaring nation and just sort of. But what's also fun to go back to kind of what you were saying about where real places might be. There are many rocks kind of in the islands around that kind of. That area, particularly Corfu, that kind of maybe look like ships and that people have thought, well, maybe that is the kind of rock that people thought was a ship turned into stone from the sites.

Tristan Hughes

Okay. So the key episodes have been from where we start. So Underworld, Circe, Sirens, Scylla and Crybdis, Calypso.

Emily Hauser

Phaeacians.

Tristan Hughes

Phaeacians. Ithaca.

Emily Hauser

That's right. So we are finally now, thanks to the magic ships, we are finally on Ithaca. And we're kind of just about past the kind of halfway point of the narrative. So, you know, as said, we've got still kind of a good 12 or so books to get us into that point where Odysseus feels like he can kind of be certain enough that he can kind of start to stage the comeback, as it were. But at this point, he's really got to start gathering his allies around him

Tristan Hughes

and which divine allies does he have? Not just in the mortal realm?

Emily Hauser

Yeah, well, the first one is a really important divine ally because you've got to get the gods on your side if you're in the ancient world. And the first one is Athena.

Tristan Hughes

It's Athena, yeah.

Emily Hauser

And so Athena, she. She's sort of been the patron of Odysseus the whole way through. We saw her coming into Olympus right at the beginning and making sure that he got freed from Calypso's island. And it is her now, in this second half of the narrative, who comes to Odysseus personally and basically reveals herself to him, reveals the island, she lifts the mist off in a kind of beautiful moment of revelation. And Odysseus suddenly sees that he is back on his homeland of Ithaca again.

Tristan Hughes

And from then on, she knows that Odysseus still has got a lot to do because he's returning on his own. They're conversing together as well. That's another key part of the story. So what do they decide is the next step for Odysseus?

Emily Hauser

Well, they basically decide that he needs to approach this in stages. So it's really important that he doesn't kind of just storm into the palace, say, you know, I'm here, I'm home,

Tristan Hughes

I'm king, I'm back.

Emily Hauser

Exactly. Because, you know, would people believe him? It's been a long time. He's obviously changed. And there's also kind of the fact of all of the people that he's lost on the way. There's the fact that he doesn't even know who is loyal to him anymore. After 20 years, do they all believe he's dead? Is Penelope even loyal anymore? So he's got to kind of approach this in stages and gather his allies around him. So what Athena does is a really important moment of kind of the narrative is that she transforms him so that he looks like a beggar, like an old, homeless kind of poor man. And that's really important for him because that kind of changes his status. It makes him kind of at the lowest level of the social hierarchy. And that's what will slowly allow him to then climb his way back up to becoming king again.

Tristan Hughes

So he's been transformed into a beggar, and then he starts walking towards the palace itself. I mean, who does he meet along the way?

Emily Hauser

Yeah, so on his way, he meets a really key figure. Eumaeus.

Tristan Hughes

Eumaeus, yes.

Emily Hauser

And Eumaeus is the swineherd. So he's looking after the palace's pigs. He is an Enslaved person. So, like, very kind of faithful to Odysseus, faithful to the palace. And Odysseus knows that, but he's obviously got to kind of test his loyalty. So coming in as an old beggar, he basically asks for his hospitality. And Eumaeus, who's, you know, one of the good guys, makes sure that he shows him good hospitality and gives him a nice little meal of some piglets.

Tristan Hughes

And how. Yes, how does that interaction play out? What does Odysseus ask him to get a sense of the lie of the land as it is?

Emily Hauser

Yeah, well, so he wants to first of all find out what's happening up at the palace. So he wants to know kind of what's the situation with the suitors? What's the situation with Telemachus, with Odysseus son, with Penelope. And he also kind of sets up this false identity, as it were, of his past, which is one of what we call these Cretan tales.

Tristan Hughes

Cretan tales.

Emily Hauser

Cretan tales, yeah. So each of these, there are three different times where he pretends to be somebody from Crete. The first time he's done it is to Athena, because he wasn't quite sure who she was at first. So he said one of these little lies where he pretends that he's got this background with Crete, the second time to Eumaeus, and then he does another one later on to Penelope.

Tristan Hughes

Now, meanwhile, Athena is helping with Odysseus. But in the last chapter, we also covered how there's also this adventure of Odysseus son, Telemachus. He's gone to find out more about what's happened to his dad, visited other kind of key figures of the Trojan War who have made it home, like Nestor and Menelaus, king of Sparta and so on. But for Athena, is Telemachus on Ithaca at that time, or does he need to get back to Ithaca?

Emily Hauser

Yeah, he needs to get back. And there's a serious kind of jeopardy here because Telemachus is obviously quite seriously hated by the suitors who want Penelope's hand and quite clearly want him out of the way because he's a potential heir once he kind of becomes a man. So what's happened is he is now, he started off with Pilos, he then went to Sparta, and on his way back, back, they are very much planning to ambush him. And so he is in serious kind of danger at this point in terms of the ambush. But at the point where Odysseus has landed on Ithaca, he is still kind of about to make his Way back. So again, we've got these two, these father and son stories happening in parallel.

Tristan Hughes

Is there a moment where they both reunite?

Emily Hauser

They do. So once Telemachus manages to get through that ambush, he survives. He's okay. He first goes to Eumaeus hut. And who should be visiting there but the old beggar? So Odysseus at this point is in Eumaeus Hut. Telemachus. Telemachus comes in and we got this amazing moment where the father, for the first time in 20 years, gazes on his son again. And he does reveal himself to Telemachus at this point makes sure that he's got Telemachus on side. He's now sort of slowly building up his allies.

Tristan Hughes

And from there, you know, from that lowly swineherd's hut, is that where they start to plan what they're going to do?

Emily Hauser

This is where the coup begins. Yeah, the coup.

Tristan Hughes

And it's funny that you say a coup, because this is how it's portrayed. I don't think really in the late Bronze Age, a kingdom or one of these states would have been happy for a king to be away for 20 years, but in this, he is still the rightful king. And it's a coup to try and retake control of his palace from the main enemy. Who are. Who we should introduce now? The suitors?

Emily Hauser

Absolutely. And certainly in Odysseus's mind, it's his rightful kingdom. Right. We could argue about whether actually having been absent for 20 years, it is anymore, but. But in his mind, it certainly is. So, yeah, what we've done got is this kind of major thorn in Odysseus side, which are these. These hundred or so men who are kind of sitting in his palace, eating all of his food, you know, kind of making their way through all of his livestock, impoverishing the palace, drinking his wine, behaving really, really badly and loutishly, and also kind of trying to force Penelope, his wife, to basically admit that Odysseus has died and that she's going to take a new husband and that that husband will be the king of Ithaca. So for Odysseus, this is a. And he's got to make sure that he gets there in time before Penelope basically gives up the ghost and says, okay, I'm going to choose one of you.

Tristan Hughes

And that is the climax that is fast approaching. And we'll. We'll get to that final part of the story right after this. Acast powers the world's best podcasts.

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Tristan Hughes

Emily we're getting towards the end now. The final big climax, the final big showdown. And I feel before we get to that, we have kind of mentioned the suitors as the key enemy for Odysseus onto his homecoming. But do we hear much about who they actually are? Do they get get a lot of character development in the in the Odyssey?

Emily Hauser

Yeah, well, we do get some of them who kind of really stick out. And some of them are given sort of characterization. So, yes, there are a lot of them, but one of them above all, I think, probably is the leader. And that's Antinous.

Tristan Hughes

Antinous, yeah.

Emily Hauser

And that's quite fun because his name means nos, which is the nous bit at the end. That means thought or mind, and anti means against. So he's a sort of plotter against. He's someone who can think in response and against your every move. And that's obviously exactly what someone like a Odysseus is going to be extremely threatened by because he's a bit cunning and crafty. So Antinous and all of the other men, they are a real threat to Odysseus. And that is basically what he. As he's gathering these various different allies and factions, he's working out who is faithful to him and who is faithful to the suitors.

Tristan Hughes

Interesting. And is Antinous. Can you see that? He's kind of. He's scheming at the same time. You mentioned that attempt to ambush Telemachus as well. So it's not very much. He's just lousing about in the palace all the time. He's also very much thinking about how to make the next move.

Emily Hauser

Absolutely. And the intimidation of Telemachus at the beginning and then the outright kind of attempt to kill him is very much a part of this kind of escalation that the suitors are engaging in. Of course, that will end in the fact that Penelope does ultimately decide that she's going to have a marriage contest. So the suitors at that point think they've really, you know, their tactics of work, they've been kind of scaling up and they're about to marry Penelope in their minds.

Tristan Hughes

And how had Penelope been keeping off the suitors up to that point?

Emily Hauser

Yeah, well, this is the famous trick that Penelope engages in. And we've been talking a lot about kind of the cunning of Odysseus. But I think it's important that we also recognize and acknowledge the immense cunning of Penelope, who is in many ways kind of a foil for Odysseus in terms of kind of just how smart she is and how she's able to kind of outwit the suitors. So we learn multiple times through the poem that Penelope has come up with this amazing ruse in order to kind of fend off the suitors, because, you know, we're looking at a lot of years that she's had to kind of keep them at bay. And for. For multiple years One of the things that she said she would do was that when she had finished weaving this funeral shroud for Laertes, that's Odysseus's father, then at that point she would marry a suitor. So she's given them an end point. However, what they don't know, of course, is that every night she is unweaving whatever she has woven during the day. And in so doing for about four years, she manages to fend off the suitors. Now, it sounds, I think, for a modern audience, audience, like, well, why would they have believed that she would take four years to just kind of weave a funeral shroud? But in fact, these could have been very kind of intricate, complex garments. They could have had figurative scenes on them. So, in fact, if Penelope was taking a lot of time, I think that's probably not something that would have surprised them. Of course, ultimately, they do find out.

Tristan Hughes

They find out.

Emily Hauser

Do they do find out. Well, it's one of the enslaved women, in fact, who. Who kind of passes the message on.

Tristan Hughes

And these enslaved women in the palace, are they very much portrayed as being in the team of the suitors? I mean, what do we know? Because, you know, whether it's sexual assault or are they being very much complicit with the suitors?

Emily Hauser

Yeah, I mean, with the enslaved women, I think it's really difficult because in the way that they are being conceived of at the time in this poetry, they are definitely being seen of as kind of the property of Odysseus. And so for him, that's the real issue is that when the suitors have kind of committed sexual assault against these women, they've also kind of assaulted his property. And for him, that's a real issue. So in Odysseus's mind, they are absolutely team suitors because at that point they've kind of gone over to that side in terms of what they were doing and what they thought. I think that's a lot harder to say whether they're given any agency in that. I very much doubt. There is one woman who's called Melantho, who is very much painted as kind of a woman who has gone over to the side of the suitors. But of course, again, in part that's because Odysseus is very much thinking. Thinking that way.

Tristan Hughes

Good to cover the suitors in a bit more depth, as we have now, to kind of understand what Odysseus is arriving into. So. So can you paint that scene for us now? So he's got Telemachus by his Side. Eumaeus as well.

Emily Hauser

Yeah.

Tristan Hughes

Are there any other allies with him as he enters the palace? What do we know about this particular part?

Emily Hauser

So there's another ally, a goatherd called, I believe, Philoitius, who joins the crew on the way. And then you. You've got the good goatherd and the bad goatherd. Bad goatherd is Melanthius, who we already measured up. So we've got, you know, this sort of growing posse around Odysseus as he's going up to the palace. And then once he reaches the palace, there he's kind of disguised as a beggar. He comes in, he is very badly treated by the suitors, who are not pleased to see an old beggar kicking around the palace. In fact, they already have an old beggar at the palace who also doesn't want to have a rival. And so they get into a. A bit of. Of a scuffle.

Tristan Hughes

And so he arrives in the palace as an old beggar for what purpose? Because otherwise you're thinking, well, why? Yeah, if you're in the eyes of the suitors, why has this old beggar just decided, been welcomed into this palace?

Emily Hauser

Yeah, well, again, what he's doing is he's sort of closing the circle of where he's trying to get to, which is ultimately getting into the palace and getting to Penelope. So he's just inching closer and closer to his goal. It is obviously quite kind of tactically quite dangerous because he is being seen as kind of the very bottom rung of society. He is thrown at him. As I say, he ends up kind of having this. This scuffle with. With the other beggar, whose name is Eros. So it's all not very dignified for Odysseus. But what kind of ends up happening is that then, you know, they step in and say, well, this isn't okay. And he ends up being. Being drawn into that circle, that inner circle of the Ithacan palace. And that is the point where then Penelope orders that he has a bath by Euryclea, the old nursemaid.

Tristan Hughes

And is this where he is recognized?

Emily Hauser

This is where he's recognized. And this is a moment which is so fascinating because he is running out of control in terms of his ability to control the recognition, because all of the other ones, he was the one who said, you know, I'm Odysseus revealing himself. But at this point where he has a foot bath and Eurycla, the old enslaved nurse, washes his feet and she sees a scar on his leg that she recognizes from the young Odysseus that he had in a boar hunting accident when he was a boy. And she suddenly realizes this is her old master.

Tristan Hughes

So does Euryclea, is she team Odysseus or team suitors? Does she give him up?

Emily Hauser

She's absolutely team Odysseus. I mean, she basically both breastfed Odysseus and she breastfed Telemachus. So she's been the wet nurse for both of them, the men in the family. So she is, she is born and bred absolutely in that family. She is an enslaved person within the family. But we're, we're given to understand that she is very much kind of a well treated, enslaved woman within, within Odysseus household. And she absolutely, she overjoyed that Odysseus has come home. However, she kind of wants to shout it out. She's really, really excited about this. And Odysseus is very keen that she doesn't give the game away. And so he really is quite kind of stern with her. And you know, old woman, you know, you cannot give this up. You cannot tell anybody. So Euryclea is not even allowed to tell Penelope at this point that Odysseus is home.

Tristan Hughes

But she has joined the team Odysseus alongside the swine. Eumaeus absolutely has Philotius Telemachus, so that the allies are growing. So does Odysseus have a name that he says, does he call himself anything as he's the beggar or does anyone even ask him his name?

Emily Hauser

So he has multiple different stories. And this is what we heard with the Cretan tales. So these are all of his little Cretan stories. In some of them he is Cretan. In others he's blown off course and lands on Crete. So he has a different shifting identity each time, which is very Odyssey in that his disguise is kind of never really pinned down. It's not like he's going through this with one name. You know, he's different to everybody. He talks. And of course, the next person he talks to is in fact Penelope.

Tristan Hughes

Penelope. So this is like, this is quite emotional. This is a poignant part of the story where he in disguise is talking to his wife.

Emily Hauser

It really is. And it's the first time that he's really kind of had a chat with her for 20 years. And they're sitting down talking together. Now, whether she recognizes him or not, that's left open. And I think it's part of the beauty of the poetry that it is left Open. It's up to you, essentially, to decide whether you think Penelope recognized him or not. She makes several sort of coy remarks. One that I particularly like is, oh, beggar, your hands look so similar to those of my husband. So, you know, whether she's sort of indicating that perhaps she does know that it's him. She mentions to him this dream that she's had that she had some geese, 20 geese that she really, really loved, and then an eagle came in and killed them all. And she asks him to interpret it, and he interprets that Odysseus is coming home soon and he is going to slaughter the suitors.

Tristan Hughes

Oh, and slaughter is.

Emily Hauser

Oh, yeah, it's been. It's been signposted.

Tristan Hughes

It's made clear that it's not gonna. They're not gonna be thrown out. They're gonna be killed right here.

Emily Hauser

Absolutely. And he's told Penelope that that's happening,

Tristan Hughes

and she's quite excited for that.

Emily Hauser

Well, you know, she's. She basically says she wishes that it were true, but she's not sure if she can believe anymore that Odysseus is going to come home. And now this is the point where we're sort of hanging in uncertainty as the audience. We're not knowing. Well, does Penelope actually even realize that she's sitting right opposite her husband? And at this kind of incredible point of narrative tension, she decides to set a contest for her hand in marriage.

Tristan Hughes

And. Right. So. But almost. So it sounds like spurred on by this hope that Odysseus will return, it's the creation of this contest. Why?

Emily Hauser

Well, is it the hope that he will return? Or is it the fact that actually she's been faced up with Odysseus giving her this prediction that Odysseus will come home? She just absolutely just says, well, actually, no, I don't believe it. It can't happen. Maybe she's completely given up. We don't know. But it is rather brilliant that it happens at the time that Odysseus is in the palace and he is right there ready to go. And she sets up this contest because.

Tristan Hughes

What is this contest?

Emily Hauser

Well, we've had a lot of debate about this in scholarship about what exactly is happening, but what she does is she sets up a row of axes. And in that row of axes there are at some point, some holes. Now, probably this is somewhere around either the socket or it's somewhere kind of in the. The center of the axe. We don't need to be too specific about it, but there are some holes at the same Time. Odysseus has a bow, a really kind of old heroic style bow that only he used to be able to string. You had to be really, really strong to be able to string these, these old bows. And so she's saying that whoever will be able to string his bow and will be able to shoot an arrow through those axes, through those holes will be her husband.

Tristan Hughes

And so the, I guess the, the ambiguity there is whether she's doing that to find if someone could be as good as Odysseus, or is it the hope that Odysseus will be among them as the Allah prophet, AKA the prophecy, and will be able to show it through the wielding of the bow itself?

Emily Hauser

Exactly. So is she replacing him or is she giving him a chance to prove himself?

Tristan Hughes

Interesting. Okay, and do we get to that contest straight away or is there more mingling of old beggar Odysseus with the suitors? So we get even more of a bad vibe of the suitors?

Emily Hauser

Yeah, so there's plenty of kind of bad vibe of the suitors to make sure that we know that they've really earned it.

Tristan Hughes

They deserve what's coming.

Emily Hauser

Yeah, no, absolutely. But yeah. So we then sort of move up as the kind of, you know, narrative is kind of the narrative tension is ramping up. We move into that contest. We've been positioned. The suitors definitely the bad guys. We've got Odysseus in place in the palace. We've got Penelope setting up the contest of the bow. She's been told Odysseus might come home. And now everyone's waiting and watch what's going to happen next.

Tristan Hughes

We'll continue this chat in a moment right after this small break.

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Emily Hauser

Yeah, well, there are several different theories about what might have been going on here. One that's really interesting is that we do see some kind of visual evidence from the period of sort of axe heads, similar to kind of what is being described here with holes, with kind of archery contests at them. There is visual suggestion that that might be happening. So potentially there might be a kind of a kernel of truth there. At the same time, we do see multiple different wall paintings of archery happening on walls, people going out on hunts and these kinds of things. So, you know, it's definitely something that is definitely not beyond doubt.

Tristan Hughes

And this is all happening in kind of the main area of the palace, we think in the kind of the main meeting area where the suitors are all gathered.

Emily Hauser

Probably sort of the courtyard that's at the heart of the palace. Yeah.

Tristan Hughes

And so how does the contest go? Who steps up first?

Emily Hauser

Yeah, well, it's really interesting because, of course, the suitors are delighted by this because they think, you know, as we said, for them, they think they're winning. Okay, maybe their ambush on Telemachus didn't work, but, you know, we've got. We've got an in. We've got a chance, and they definitely think they can do it. So we've got, of course, Antinous, the leader of the suitors, who has his go.

Tristan Hughes

He goes first, does he?

Emily Hauser

I'm pretty sure he goes first. Yeah. But he. He definitely is keen to make sure that he can prove that he would be able to be a replacement for Odysseus. But he cannot string the bow, so he can't even do that kind of first step to be able to string the bow, let alone be able to shoot it through the axis. And then we get one after the other. We get all of the suitors kind of trying and failing, and each of them just can't do it. Finally, and this is interesting, Telemachus wants to have a go. So Penelope and Odysseus's son just on the edge of the manhood. And it's really interesting because here we're seeing a replacement for Odysseus in a different way. We're seeing a son who could potentially replace the father. And he steps up and he almost strings the bow.

Tristan Hughes

Oh, interesting.

Emily Hauser

Yeah. And it's a nod from Odysseus that stops him from doing it.

Tristan Hughes

And is it also this idea of Telemachus? Of course, he's not doing it to marry his mum, it's to protect his mum.

Emily Hauser

Exactly. And to prove himself as sort of the natural successor to Odysseus, the next king. Yeah, exactly, exactly. So I think it's, you know, definitely a. A sign that Telemachus is on the edge of that point where he would be able to stand side by side with Odysseus and claim the kingship. Of course, the fact that he doesn't do it then sets the scene for Odysseus disguised as the beggar to step in and say, well, can I have a go?

Tristan Hughes

But sorry, quickly on, tell me. Because that also makes sense, because earlier in the story, he's conversing with Athena, she's saying, are you going to be quite like, I see good things in you for the future? Like, there is potential here. So once again, there's that, that motive, that portrayal continues, that there is that Odysseus, like, he is going to reach the heights of his father, but not quite now. It's still Odysseus's time to shine.

Emily Hauser

It is indeed. And we've had moments also when he met with Helen, Helen of Sparta, Helen of Troy, where she said, you look so like Odysseus, you know, so he's definitely being seen as following in Odysseus's footsteps. However, in order to kind of get on Dad's side, there is something that he's got to do. And that. That's pretty horrific, which is the slaughter of the suitors. And he takes part in that. And it's almost his initiation into manhood, into the kingship of Ithaca, is if you're prepared to do this, then you know, this is what you've got to do.

Tristan Hughes

All right, so Telemachus just doesn't string the bow. And who steps up next?

Emily Hauser

An old beggar.

Tristan Hughes

An old beggar.

Emily Hauser

And everyone's surprised. The suitors are sneering. Nobody thinks that an old, beautiful beggar would have a chance of stringing the bow, let alone being Penelope's husband. However, he persuades them to let him have a go. Telemachus steps forward, says, no, let him have it. And he reaches for the bow and he strings it like a bard stringing a Lyre. He sounds the string of the bow and it sings out like a bird. An extraordinary beautiful moment where Odysseus the bard has now become Odysseus the archer. He picks up the bow and as he does so, the disguise sheds from him. He becomes Odysseus once more and he shoots the arrow through the axes and the slaughter of the suitors begins.

Tristan Hughes

Is Antinous the first to get the bullet or should I say the arrow?

Emily Hauser

He is certainly one of the first. I can't remember if he's the very first, but he is certainly the person that Odysseus has his sights set on. And at this point we then go straight into the action of, of needing to get rid of the suitors.

Tristan Hughes

And as morbid as it is, describe the slaughter. What do we hear from the. Because I can presume for this part of the Odyssey, it's not just and then he killed them all. I'm sure there's a bit more than that.

Emily Hauser

No, there is more of it. I mean, you know, these are epics that were born in kind of glorifying warfare and preserving the memory of heroes who did some really bloody deeds. And I mean, if anyone's read any of the Iliad, you know, you'll know that there's plenty of, plenty of kind of, you know, brains and blood and guts. So absolutely we're given quite a lot of detail. So what Odysseus does is remember he's already got Euroclea on his side. Euroclair is an important player in this because she, as well as being the kind of enslaved nurse, she's also the housekeeper. She's got the keys to the storerooms, so she's able to lock the doors. So what she does is she's taken out all of the weapons from the hall and she then locks the door. So the women are out, the men are in and they cannot escape. And what ensues is essentially a bloodbath where the suitors, completely unarmed, are just completely annihilated by.

Tristan Hughes

Imagine they're quite, they're quite drunk. They're quite drunk as well.

Emily Hauser

They're drunk. You know, they've been also kind of lazing around in Ithaca for 20 years. They're not sort of battle hardened war veterans like Odysseus is. He's also got Telemachus on his side, he's got Eumaeus, he's got Philoitius. And so they all just kind of have at it.

Tristan Hughes

And by the end it's just. Is it blood and guts everywhere?

Emily Hauser

The dead the hall is running with blood. And in fact it's one of the kind of really awful scenes is that that needs to be cleared up and who is going to clear it up but the enslaved women. And these are the women who have been sleeping with or raped by the suitors. And they then have to clean up the bodies, they have to scrub the blood from the halls, they have to get the smell out. And after that Odysseus decides time for Telemachus to step up to be a man and he has to punish them.

Tristan Hughes

What's the punishment?

Emily Hauser

He takes 12 of the enslaved women who were the ones who were deemed to have been traitors with the suitors and they are strung up by their neck on nooses across the courtyard and killed.

Tristan Hughes

Wow, that's the part of the story that you don't. Well, someone who's been told the odd will probably not quite remember as much as the suitors that grim afternoon. And that's Telemachus.

Emily Hauser

Telemachus.

Tristan Hughes

And Odysseus says you've got to do that.

Emily Hauser

Exactly. There is to me an element here of hazing, of you know, if you're going to be the king, you've got to be ready to do these kinds of things. This is Odysseus vision of kingship. This is what getting home means. I think we really tend to forget that. We tend to think it's a kind of romantic arrival home. And you know, the reunion with, with Penelope before that happens there is an absolute bloodbath and there is the hanging of 12 enslaved women.

Tristan Hughes

Is anyone spared?

Emily Hauser

So there are some people who are spared. You've got for instance Eumaeus and Philosophy who were on the right side. So they're, they're all fine. There are some of the suitors who try and beg for mercy and not even them get away. So it's, it is a really kind of thorough cleansing almost a kind of how can we return to what is it looked like before Odysseus left for the Trojan War? How can we get them all out of our house? I think the scrubbing of the sort of floors of the palace is very symbolic at that point.

Tristan Hughes

Getting rid of the memory of them.

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Emily Hauser

Everything out.

Tristan Hughes

And is it Penelope then sees her beloved Odysseus? After so many years he's still got a lot of explaining to do. Let's be fair. In the middle of this blood soaked room, does she come running down towards him?

Emily Hauser

Well, she doesn't. So it's, you know, Penelope we've talked about, about. She's Sort of just as clever as her husband, just as canny. And so she wants to take her time to work out who this potentially murderous new suitor is. Euryclea comes running up and says, odysseus is home. You know, you. You should be so overjoyed. And she says, well, you know, I've got to make sure. And she comes down and she gives Odysseus a test of her own. So we've had already kind of the contest of the bow, but now she's got her own little test to make sure that this really, really is Odysseus.

Tristan Hughes

And what's that test?

Emily Hauser

Well, the test is around their marital bed. So the story is that Odysseus, before he went to Troy, made a bed for the husband and wife in an olive tree that grew through the palace of Ithaca, and that he hollowed out part of the trunk and made a bed for them. And what Penelope does is that she says to Odysseus, well, you know, we've made up a bed for you and moved the bed out of my room for you. And he is outraged and he says, who moved my bed? Now, obviously this is a symbol of the fact that Penelope might have been unfaithful because if that bed that he made for them for their marital union could have been moved, maybe she's been unfaithful. And she realizes at the point where he gets outraged that the bed could have been moved and he tells the story of the olive tree, she realizes it's him.

Tristan Hughes

I don't really feel he's got a leg to stand on on that. But is that. I do agree, is that left ambiguous? Is that not revealed whether she was faithful or not?

Emily Hauser

It's left ambiguous, yeah. So what they do, and there's a sort of moment then of reunion where they get together in that bed that he made for them and they tell their stories of everything that happened. And interestingly, Odysseus tells her about Calypso and Circe, but he doesn't tell her about Nausicar. So he misses some things out.

Tristan Hughes

She's the princess of the. I'm not going to say the word again of the Phaeacians.

Emily Hauser

Yes, she is. And she's. She's the one, interestingly, who was potentially the nearest miss in terms of him not only being unfaithful, but potentially settling down because they have this kind of sort of weird initiated courtship almost. And he doesn't tell her about Nausicaa. So there's some interesting sort of storytelling going On, I mean, Odysseus cannot stop telling his stories, can he?

Tristan Hughes

There you go. And you think that's the end of the Odyssey. But it's not quite the. Because these suitors, I haven't got much time, so can't do too much. But, but these suitors, of course, they're still the most prominent figures in the land and around. It's not just them. They have their own families, they have their own supporters.

Emily Hauser

They do.

Tristan Hughes

And so slaughtering all these people, it's going to have repercussions. And isn't that the case with Odysseus?

Emily Hauser

It is. So you might expect the Odyssey to end on this kind of happy note, you know, reunion, marriage, bed, re reunited, all of that. But it actually ends on a really kind of troubled, problematic note where essentially what we seeing is almost a civil war about to break out in Ithaca because as you say, you know, he has just murdered 108 of the, you know, young men from the island and the surrounding islands. And they have their families, they have their supporters. All of them come rushing in and saying, well, what the, what the hell are you doing? Just killing all of our men folk. Let alone of course the fact that all of the Ithacans that he took on the ship with him to Troy have not come back.

Tristan Hughes

There's other, that, there's also that part. Where are these soldiers you took to Troy?

Emily Hauser

Yeah, so they're really, really gearing up for a kind of war that's about to break out on Ithaca. And at that point, as Odysseus is rallying, as Telemachus is rallying his aged father Laertes, at that point Athena, the goddess who we have seen kind of time and time again coming to almost pull the narrative of the Odyssey back into order, she comes down again and she stops the fighting. So we've got a sort of temporary God induced pause. Whether that would be enough to stop all of the kind of conclusions sort of unraveling from what Odysseus has done, I'm not sure whether that would be. But at least for some moment at the end of the Odyssey, things hang in the balance.

Tristan Hughes

Things hang in the balance. But Penelope and Odysseus are back together again. And obviously we talked earlier about Agamemnon and Clytemnestra and how that is not a marriage made in heaven. Quite frankly, it's the opposite. It's a nice contrast though, isn't it? One of actually kind of a marriage that works between a hero and this and a queen compared to the, compared to The Agamemnon and Clytemnestra and so on. But that is the end of the Odyssey. That's, that's the return, the homecoming, that slightly troubled note at the end.

Emily Hauser

Well, the troubled note and also the fact that Odysseus, halfway through the Odyssey was given a prophecy that he was going to go on another voyage again, which he tells Penelope when they have their little chat in the night. He says, you know, by the way, this isn't the end. I'm going to be off on another journey. So not only have we kind of had a very troubled closure, but also we've got the opening to a future journey.

Tristan Hughes

And do we know what that journey will be? Is it revealed in any other Greek sources what actually was supposed to happen after the end of the Odyssey?

Emily Hauser

We do, yeah.

Tristan Hughes

So.

Emily Hauser

Well, first of all, we know because Tiresias gives him the prophecy of what he's going to do. So he says he's going to wander with an oar on his back until he gets to a place where men do not, not know the sea. And they think that the oar on his back is a winnowing fan. So that's kind of the, the first prediction. He's going to go on this long land voyage. But the other thing that happens, which is really interesting, is how Odysseus dies. And this is on another journey that he goes on and he ends up accidentally meeting the son that he and Circe had together. And that son doesn't realize that this is his father, unwittingly wounds him with a poison tipped spear. And that is how Odysseus dies.

Tristan Hughes

I didn't know that at all. Interesting.

Emily Hauser

Telegonus is the name of the sun. And this was the subject of another epic that came after called the Telegony.

Tristan Hughes

So, so we think of the Iliad and the Odyssey, but the real, the real, you know, the hard nuts, the, the people who know it the best know. Well, actually it's the Iliad, the Odyssey and then the Telegony.

Emily Hauser

Well, absolutely. And all of the others, the Ethiopists, the Iliopezes, the Cypria, there are so many that we just don't have. We've got two of them. There was a whole collection of these epics.

Tristan Hughes

Gosh. So why of all of them today, of course, we've got coming very soon, maybe now released, we have Christopher Nolan's epic, the Odyssey. Why do you think of all the stories, the Odyssey, it resonates so much with us even today.

Emily Hauser

The Odyssey is a story you can Take on many different, different levels. You can take it on the kind of surface level of kind of swashbuckling adventure, the fantastical journey, sort of the piratical nature of what he does. On that level, it's just pure enjoyment. But I think on a deeper level, there are themes here that resonate with us as humans. Themes about what it means to be someone who acts within society, within their community. Whether that is someone who's trying to uphold them and get the men home, as Odysseus does, or someone who ends up ultimately destroying them. What it is to be within a family, what it is to be within a home. These are themes that I think resonate with us all. And Odysseus, what he ultimately is trying to do is he is trying to get back into human society, make his way in the world. And if that's not something that all of us understand, that journey, to try and understand who you are, how you make your way in the world. I think the Odyssey resonates with us all.

Tristan Hughes

It's also how to be respectful when you're in the house of someone else. How to treat your guests as well, I guess. Are those other big things.

Emily Hauser

Absolutely. Thinking about kind of the right codes of conduct with others, and that idea of Xenia, that idea of hospitality, guest friendship, those ties that knit us together as a community of humans and how fragile they are as well, how easily they break apart. I think it's also a warning. Right. That sort of very troubled ending of the Odyssey is. It's also a sense that we need to take care and we need to think these things through. And the Odyssey is a beautiful prism to think through those kinds of issues.

Tristan Hughes

Emily, this has been truly epic. 24 books of the Odyssey covered from start to finish. What a story. Couldn't have asked for a better guest to talk through it with as well. Last, but certainly not least, you have written a book recently which covers several really important figures in the story of the Odyssey and their links not just to the real world, but their importance in the mythology.

Emily Hauser

Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I'm really passionate about thinking about why these stories matter now and why we should keep turning back to them. And my book, Mythica, is about the real women who stand behind these myths and who might have made up the kind of the tapestry of the late Bronze Age world. Who might have kind of prefigured figures like Helen, like Penelope, like Nausicaa, Arete, who we've talked about, Calypso, Circe. What was the reality of the world behind and how did they sort of trickle down into the legends that ended up making Homer's Odyssey? So, you know, it's something that what's fascinating about it is that, yes, there was a history that was standing behind the Odyssey, but it's also something that we've been lost because we haven't been thinking and talking about the women and what we can do now because we're interested in those stories again, because, you know, we're looking back, we're turning back constantly to these tales. We can start to ask new questions. And for me, that's what's so exciting about the Odyssey. You can keep coming back and asking more.

Tristan Hughes

Fantastic. And of course, this isn't the last time that I'm going to see you because next we're going to watch Christopher Nolan's Odyssey and we're going to record one more episode. Our thoughts about it. Are you excited?

Emily Hauser

I am really looking forward to it. I am also looking forward to dissecting it together.

Tristan Hughes

Emily it just goes me to say thank you so much for coming on the podcast today.

Emily Hauser

Thank you so much for having me.

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