Brett McKay

So one project Kate and I are working on this summer is turn a corner of our backyard into a little conversation area with a fire pit. The kids are teenagers now. We want a place where they can hang out with their friends and where we can sit outside at the end of the day and unwind. And we've been looking at Wayfair for the fire pit and the benches we're put in this area and I'm surprised by the selection that you have there. At Wayfair you can spend a fortune outdoor furniture if you're not careful. But Wayfair had a lot of options that look good without blowing the budget. I also like that you're not buying blind. They've got millions of reviews from customers with pictures so you can see what the furniture actually looks like in other people's backyards before you order. And if you order, and if putting everything together sounds like a pain, they can even handle delivery and assembly. If a friend told me they wanted to make their backyard a place people actually wanted to spend time but didn't know where to start, I'd tell them to check out Wayfair. It's easy to compare different styles, prices and reviews all in one place. Ready to upgrade your home for way less? Head to Wayfair.com right now and shop all things home and get your space ready for less. That's wayfair.com that's spelled W A Y F A I R Wayfair Every style

Margie Lachman

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Brett McKay

Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the AOM podcast, which since 2008 has featured conversations with the world's best authors, thinkers and leaders that glean their edifying life improving insights without the fluff and filler. The AOM podcast is just one part of the McKay mission to help individuals practice timeless virtues through thought, words, word and deed. Also, be sure to explore our articles in artofmanliness.com, read the deeper dives we do in our substack newsletter@dyingbreed.net and turn our content into real world action by joining the Strenuous Life program@strenuous life.com now on to the show. Many of us grow up believing that midlife is when things start going downhill. Your body's breaking down, your best work is behind you, and you may fall into a full blown existential crisis. But a lot of what we think we know about midlife turns out to be based more on pop culture than actual research. My guest says the reality is much more encouraging. Her name is Margie Lochman, and she's a professor of psychology, the director of the Lifespan Lab at Brandeis University, and the author of A New Vision for Midlife Today. In the show, Margie discusses what age range constitutes midlife, how it's not just a matter of chronological age and whether people really become less happy and experience a midlife crisis during these years. She explains the surprising ways your mind continues to improve even as some abilities slow down, and why this stage of life often represents a peak combination of creativity and judgment. We also talk about the real challenges that come with midlife and how adopting the right mindset and habits can mitigate those downsides while helping you make the most of what Margie argues can truly be a sweet spot in life, a time when you still have much of your physical and mental vitality, and it's coupled with seasoned experience and wisdom. After the show's over, check out our show notes at AWIM is Married primetime. All right, Margie Lockman, welcome to the show.

Margie Lachman

Thank you so much. I'm really glad to be here.

Brett McKay

So you are a professor of psychology who researches adult development with a focus on midlife, you know, 40s to 60s. Well, actually, we're going to talk about what is midlife, exactly? How adults experience the world and themselves throughout their life. This is a surprisingly new field of psychology. Why did psychologists who studied human development, why do they often ignore adulthood and particularly midlife?

Margie Lachman

Yes, that's really interesting. As a developmental psychologist, we were mainly focused on infancy and early childhood and adolescence. And then the gerontologists were focused on later life and the problems of old age. What we realized, and this was in the 1990s, that there was a big hole in the middle. We really knew very little, especially about midlife. And I think a lot of that stemmed from some of the early famous psychologists like Freud and Piaget. So Freud basically thought that development stopped around adolescence. Your personality basically was sort of fixed in childhood, and Piaget thought that your cognitive, cognitive functioning was fixed by the time you were adolescent or in early adulthood at the latest. And personality psychologists really thought that personality was set like plaster for many, many years. So in the mid-90s, we started to realize that maybe we were missing something. By not examining the whole area of adulthood, people thought things were very stable, that nothing was going to change until the declines set in in later life.

Brett McKay

Okay. And so you and other researchers started looking at adulthood and what's going on there and how people change and the challenges they face in adulthood and how those challenges might change how they Adapt to life or experience life. And the approach you take is this idea of lifespan research. What is lifespan research?

Margie Lachman

So lifespan research is focused on how people change over time. Other approaches might just compare people of different ages. So you might compare a 30 year old with a 40 year old or a 50 year old. The lifespan approach follows people over time. And so we started this longitudinal study called Midlife in the United States over 30 years ago. And we've been following the same people over time. And the advantage of that is you can really see how people move into midlife and then transition out of midlife into later life. So we've been able to see the processes of change rather than just looking at people of different ages at the same point in time. And the main advantage is that you can really focus on prevention so we can identify issues early on. The earlier you identify some of the important factors that relate to your psychological and physical well being, the earlier you can intervene and identify some of the problems that can be addressed.

Brett McKay

And when you're doing lifespan research and you're following these people from maybe their late mid-30s to their 70s, what things are you looking at in their life? You're looking at their health, their relationships, what sorts of factors are you paying attention to?

Margie Lachman

Definitely all of the above. We really take what I would call a biopsychosocial approach. So we look at their biological functioning, their psychological functioning, and their social functioning, their cognitive functioning. What we like to do is to really focus on modifiable factors. So what are the things that you can change that might help people to move through the aging process in a smoother way, in a healthier way? So we look at things like your lifestyle, your health habits, your mindset, that's a big one. Your attitudes, your personality, your cognitive functioning. And these are things that we can modify. We can identify ways to either prevent or to slow the declines that might naturally occur with aging.

Brett McKay

All right, so your research in lifespan domain focuses on midlife. We throw that word around like, I'm, I'm in, I'm in my midlife years. Now, how do you think most laypeople define midlife? And then how do researchers like you define it?

Margie Lachman

It's truly a moving target. The older you are, the later you think it starts. And what's interesting is that Those in their 30s and 40s don't really want to call themselves middle aged, so they kind of push it up a little bit. Those in their 60s and 70s want to be considered middle aged, so they don't want to be considered old so they tend to think midlife lasts into the 60s and 70s. But I would say that the heart of midlife is really the 40s and the 50s. Another aspect, though, is really how old you feel, what we call subjective age. There's so much variation at a particular chronological age that it's not as useful as thinking about how old people feel. And the way you feel can be influenced by so many different things. Not only your physical health, but even your social relationships where you are in terms of your life course. So at age 40, some people are very healthy, other people are not. Some are married, some are not. Some have newborns or young children, and other people have children who are leaving the nest. So there's so many differences in terms of how a person's constellation of events and lifestyle is at a particular age that I really like to think about midlife in terms of the roles that you have. If you're in the middle of generations, for example, so you have people who are younger and older who are depending on you, and you're focused on helping those who are in your family or in the workplace or in community who are younger and older. To me, that's really a way to define midlife. Being in the middle generation and having your responsibilities that are focused not only on yourself, but also on those who are younger and older. And that can really happen at any chronological age. You know, anywhere from 30s to 60s, you can be in that sort of middle range.

Brett McKay

All right, but. So, for the most part, rough ballpark. 40s to 50s is generally midlife for most people.

Margie Lachman

Yes. That is, I think, very reasonable way to define it. If we want to focus on chronological age, I usually say 40 to 60 plus or minus 10, which would make it 30 to 70, if I really want to broaden the definition. Mainly because we know that when we ask people if they feel they're in midlife, people in their 30s will say yes. People in their 70s will say yes.

Brett McKay

Okay, so it's. It's a. It's a moving target. And what's interesting, too, about the idea of midlife, particularly in American pop culture, we have this idea about midlife. It's pretty negative, like, oh, you're over the hill. You got to have a midlife crisis. It's obligatory. But your research debunks a lot of these negative stereotypes we have about midlife. Let's start with this idea of the midlife crisis. Where did this idea that once you hit your 40s, you're going to have an existential crisis, you're going to go buy a car and divorce your spouse and marry someone younger. Where did that come from?

Margie Lachman

That is something that we can trace to an article written by a psychoanalyst named Elliot Jacks in 1965. That's one of the earliest mentions that we have been able to identify. And he was someone who wrote about famous artists, but also people who were his patients. And what he found was people in their mid-30s to early-40s were concerned that they were on their way downhill, that everything was decline afterwards, and that they weren't as productive as they were, and they were feeling like they were afraid of death. So that's where we think it started. It got popularized in a number of ways, though. One of the most well known ways that we see it popularized was with Gail Sheehy's book Passages where she called the transition at different ages, especially age 40, as a predictable crisis. So the assumption that everybody would be going through this, and it resonated with a lot of people because there are people who do have difficulties as they make a transition into the next decade.

Brett McKay

Again, another book came out around that time, Daniel Levinson's book, the Seasons of a Man's Life. And he talked about the midlife transition as well.

Margie Lachman

Absolutely. In fact, Daniel Levinson and Dan Gould is another one. They all were talking about these different transitions, mainly going from 20s to 30s to 40s. And Gail Sheehy really drew heavily on Dan Levinson's work. But he also did speak about these transitions, but he said it was really a natural part of adult development that as you were going into the next decade and there's periods of stability and change throughout adulthood. But he didn't necessarily say that it was a crisis. I think it was really not until Gail Sheehy popularized it that that became more of a common term. And certainly it's also popularized by Hollywood and novelists who love to portray the midlife crisis with these stereotypical views of getting a red sports car as, you know.

Brett McKay

Yeah. And see, I remember growing up in the, you know, late 80s and 90s, there's a lot of movies that came out, you know, made by baby boomers because they were hitting their midlife then. That was about the midlife crisis. I remember City Slickers with Billy Crystal. I think there's some other ones too. Same sort of thing about these people, baby boomers hitting midlife and they're having this crisis and they try to go on this adventure and try to figure things out. And it kind of popularized that idea even more.

Margie Lachman

Yeah, it can be really Funny. And people do have issues in midlife. It is a difficult time, there's a lot of stress. And so it kind of capitalizes on that. And I think people can relate to it.

Brett McKay

And then another thing that happened that entrenched this idea of the midlife crisis even more is that in the 2000s, there was this research that came out that showed that people experienced a U shaped curve of happiness. So they'd start out happy in young adulthood, they would get progressively less happy as they approached midlife, and then had their happiness go up as they left midlife. Tell us more about that research.

Margie Lachman

This is a very interesting period of time when there was many studies that consistently found this U shape, which basically means if you compare people from 18 to 70 and you give them a questionnaire that asks them to rate their life satisfaction on a 10 point scale with 0 being the worst possible life and 10 being the best possible life, what they found was those who were in their 40s and 50s were lower than those who were younger and older. Now, there's a number of things that I think are problematic with that work. So let me say what I think the problems are. So first, when we looked at the data, the differences between those who were younger or older than those in midlife were very small. So on this 10 point scale, we're talking about a few tenths of a point. So maybe 7.4 for those who are in midlife and 7.8 for those who were in early adulthood or later adulthood. So those are really small differences. Although with the large samples that they had, and these were samples not only in the US it was really all over the world, these were statistically significant differences. So it became really common knowledge that the low point, in fact they said the nadir of life satisfaction is age 47. They pinpointed it to that particular age. So first of all, it really was a very small difference. The other point I want to make is that now they have retracted. The people who propose this U shape have retracted it. And it's unfortunate why they've retracted it. The reason they've retracted it is because it turns out that the younger people, those under 40, are the ones who have the lowest life satisfaction. So it's really seems that it's just a difference in terms of where you rank yourself relative to the other ages at one point in time. And that, in my view, is not the best way to be looking at this question about whether midlife is good or not. First of all, there are huge individual differences at any age. So on Average. It doesn't really tell you much about why some people are doing better than others. And the other thing is that when we follow people in our longitudinal study, we don't see people going down in midlife per se. We see pretty much what I would call consistent, stable life satisfaction. Most people maintain their levels of satisfaction throughout life. Those who are happy tend to be happy most of the time with some blips when there are problems. Certainly if you follow people on a daily basis, you can see their ups and downs. But we don't see this downward trend in midlife on average, as they do in the U shaped studies.

Brett McKay

All right, so being miserable in your midlife, not universal, but I think your research did show there's a. There's a small percentage of people who do experience what you might call a midlife crisis. I think it was like 20 to 25%.

Margie Lachman

Correct. We asked this in the very beginning of our study. We asked people, and this is from earlier generations, not current generations, and they did say they had a midlife crisis, but as you say, it was only about 20 to 25%. And I think it's important to qualify that what they meant by a midlife crisis was not necessarily what Elliot Jacks originally had talked about, which was, you know, people thinking everything's going downhill. The kind of things that they talked about were more related to events that happened to them in midlife, such as getting divorced or losing a job or getting an illness. And those things can really happen at any age. If they happen to you in midlife, then you may call it a midlife crisis. There were some people who did talk about fears about getting older, but that was less likely than those people who are focused on these external events.

Brett McKay

All right, so this idea of the midlife crisis, not really a thing. Some people experience it, not very many, but it's not because you're. You hit your 40s and you're automatically going to have an existential CR crisis. You just happen to have stuff that happens in midlife that can cause a lot of stress. Most people generally go through midlife satisfied with life. Nevertheless, this idea of the midlife crisis still exists. And one of the arguments you make in the book is that believing this idea or buying into this idea of the midlife crisis can hurt you. How can it hurt people if they buy into this idea that I hit my 40s? It's all downhill from here.

Margie Lachman

I'm glad that you brought this up, because I will say that as I'm reading articles so often these days about the millennial midlife crisis. I am getting concerned. I do think what's going on is that many people in their mid-30s and early-40s are experiencing a lot of stress because of the financial crisis that we're all going through and things related to housing. And this is causing a lot of stress. And I think people are labeling it as a midlife crisis because they happen to be in midlife. And it's a very difficult time because there are many people depending on them and they're having financial stresses. And so it is really important to address this because I think a lot of people are expecting to have a midlife crisis or thinking that what they're having is a midlife crisis. Now, why is it so dangerous? I think any negative aging stereotype is dangerous. There's been research that shows that if you have a negative view of aging, it actually affects your health for years. And in fact, it could even affect your longevity and how long you live. So having these negative views of the aging process have been shown to be detrimental to your health. But I also think that if you are expecting a midlife crisis and you're not doing well, you're feeling stressed, you're unhappy, you may be missing things that you can do something about. So you may be depressed. Well, we have a lot of ways to treat depression. For example, or maybe you're experiencing hormonal changes and you think it's a midlife crisis. There are things we can do to address hormonal changes. So I think we can miss things that are treatable and important if we just label any maladjustment or difficulties in midlife as a midlife crisis and ch it up to that. And so if you think you're just supposed to feel terrible when you get to midlife, you might not seek the help that could actually be beneficial to you.

Brett McKay

Yeah, believing in midlife crisis makes it kind of a self fulfilling prophecy.

Margie Lachman

Yes, absolutely.

Brett McKay

But I mean, the thing about midlife is it is a transition point because you've had about 20 years of adulthood under your belt and you're probably looking back at your life and thinking, you know, how, how am I doing? I've had 20 years of adulthood. How am I doing in my career, my relationships? Am I as far as I thought I'd be? And some people might look back at this time, be like, boy, I'm really behind on things. I'm not where I want to be. And that can cause some depression or some existential angst. But your research has found that there's a Thing you can do to mitigate some of, you know, sort of internalizing this idea that, okay, I've reached midlife. I'm not doing great. I'm having a midlife crisis. And it's this idea of the Life review. How can a midlife life review help during this transition period between young adulthood into midlife?

Margie Lachman

That is a really great point to make, because I think there are many people who are getting to age 35, 40, 45, and not having accomplished all of the goals that they thought they would have by this time. There's just a general trend of people taking longer to reach the traditional adult milestones. For example, people are marrying later or not at all. People are having children later or not at all. People are taking longer to finish their education. People are taking longer to enter the workforce. So all of these things that people may have thought if they look at earlier generations, that they would have accomplished by age 35, 40, and if they haven't, that makes them feel that they are behind and that there are problems with not having met their goals. But what I like people to think about is there's still a lot of time left. There are things that you can still do. It's not all or nothing, and there's plenty of time left to accomplish these things. Now, the Life review is something that I think is very beneficial. A lot of times people are so busy in midlife, they're on automatic pilot, and they don't take time to sit down and reflect and think about where they are or why they are where they are or what they really want to do. So this is what the goal of the Life Review is, and you can really do it at any time. Originally, this life review is developed for people in much later life to reflect on their life. I thought it would be very beneficial in midlife because not only are you looking back to see where you've been, but also where you want to go. And so I think that's very beneficial for people to reflect and think about what their situation is and what they can do to move forward.

Brett McKay

Yeah, I think also doing the Life review, you know, you might feel like, oh, I haven't really done much so far. But if you, you know, ask some thoughtful questions and be like, well, is that really true? And you look back, well, actually, I've done quite a bit. There's a lot of things I have done. I've laid a good ground, you know, a foundation here. I can build off of that for the next, you know, 20 years. I did something like that when I turned 40 on my 40th birthday. I got a hotel room near my house and just want to be by myself. And I took my journals that I had from since I was a kid all the way through young adulthood, and I just read through them all, all night. Because, like, in that you get to see how you developed. And I also, in these journals, I kind of established my goals I had for myself at different periods of my life. And I was able to kind of see, oh, how? How did I do? And then how have my goals changed and am I at where I want to be? I thought it was a really useful, productive practice. It only cost me 70 bucks for the night in the hotel. That was it.

Margie Lachman

Amazing. That is exactly what I would hope people can do. So I'm really excited to hear that you found it valuable. Yeah.

Brett McKay

You got a list of questions people can think through when they do their midlife review. Ten or five years ago, what did I think I'd be doing at this point in my life? Which of those expectations have come true? Which haven't? What's going well right now? What's not going well? Am I happy with what I'm doing? Why or why not? What am I doing or not doing that I want to change what is truly essential in my life right now? What is less important? What are my highest priorities? Where do I want to be in 10 or 5 years? What do I want to be doing in 10 or 5 years? What changes do I need to make to get there? What specific actions can I take to reach those goals? So, yeah, those would be some good things to think through as you do a midlife review. We're going to take a quick break for your word from our sponsors. I've reached the point where I don't really think about skincare anymore. I just do it. I've been using Caldera Lab for over a year now, and that's probably the biggest compliment I can give it. This takes about 30 seconds in the morning and 30 seconds at night. The product that I use, my favorite product is the Great. It's a lightweight serum designed specifically for men's skin. Men's skin is thicker, oilier, and ages differently than women's. So it makes sense to use something that's actually formulated for us. The reason I keep coming back to the Great is that it's simple and it works. It absorbs quickly, doesn't leave your skin feeling greasy, and over time, I notice my skin just looks healthier. Smoother texture, fewer fine lines, and I don't look as worn down at the end of a long week. In fact, in a four week consumer perception study of men ages 40 to 60, 97% agreed the overall appearance of their skin was visibly improved. If you're looking for one simple product that actually makes a difference, that's the great visit calderalab.com manliness and use code manliness for 20% off your first order. That's Caldera Lab at C-A-L-E D R A L A B.com manliness and use code Manliness for 20% off your first Order. Make sure to check out the great support for today's episode comes from Square, the business platform that helps sellers become neighborhood favorites. I've actually used Square myself over the years when I've done live events and sold books and merchandise in person. What I always liked was how easy it made everything. I could take payments right from my phone, keep things moving and focusing on talking with people instead of fumbling around with transactions. And once you start noticing it, you see Square everywhere. One of my favorite local donut shops here in Tulsa uses it. The checkout is quick, receipts show up instantly and everything just works. That's probably why so many small businesses rely on it. Square brings payments, point of sale, inventory, staffing, online sales, and more together in one system so business owners don't have to juggle a bunch of different tools. Whether you're just getting started or growing into something bigger, Square gives you a setup that can grow with your business. Right now, listeners can get up to $200 off Square hardware. When you go to square.com go manliness. That's Square S Q U-A-R-E.com go manliness. Get started with Square and build a setup that works the way you do. So when I was a young man first out on my own, I made some pretty boneheaded money mistakes. I'd forget how much I had in my checking account. I'd buy a burger at Chili's, fill my gas tank, and then get hit with an overdraft fee. It was an expensive way to learn about how to manage money. That's why I think something like Chime would have been useful for my younger self. Chime is changing the way people bank with more rewarding fee free banking, no monthly fees, no overdraft fees like a lot of traditional banks. And they even have thousands of fee free ATMs. With direct deposit, Chime members can unlock rewards like 5% cash back in a category of their choice with a Chime card, savings that earn 3.7 y percent APY and even SpotMe, which lets eligible members overdraft up to $200 fee free. If you're going to switch banks, you might as well upgrade to America's number one choice for banking. Join the millions who are already banking fee free today. Head to chime.commanliness that's chime.commanliness it only takes a few minutes to sign up chime.commanliness Chime is a fintech, not a bank.

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Brett McKay

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Margie Lachman

Definitely not. You don't get dumber. You actually get smarter in midlife. Now, that said, things are slowing down. I mean, this is part of the natural aging process, but they shouldn't be slowing down so much that you really notice it on a daily basis. It might take a little bit longer to think of something or to do something than it was when you were in your 20s. But the slowing is a natural part of the aging process, and probably the one that's most noticeable. But you're not dumber. There are two kinds of intelligence that we talk about. One is fluid intelligence, which is on the way down. It's slowly, gradually declining. But it really shouldn't affect things that you do in your everyday life, Especially because the things we do, we're familiar with, and we have learned how to do them, and we can improve on them. So it's only when we take people into the lab and give them novel stimuli and give them a speed test, make them do something really quickly, that we see significant declines in midlife. But those really don't translate into daily life. So, yes, there are some things that are going down. On the other hand, and this is really what's most valuable is crystallized intelligence is going up. And that's basically your knowledge and your experience and all that you've acquired for your 30, 40, 50 years. You have so much knowledge and so much that you can apply to new situations, and that can really compensate for any changes that you might experience in the fluid intelligence.

Brett McKay

All right. So, yeah, our fluid intelligence, midlife, it's slowing down a little bit. So we're not as quick on our feet as we might have been in our 20s. But that crystallized intelligence is going up, sort of stuff we know in our head. And I think there's been studies done that showed that individuals with a lot of crystallized intelligence, Older people, can often outperform the younger people who have maybe higher fluid intelligence. But because they don't have that crystallized intelligence, they kind of flounder a bit before they get the answer. And the wise old people, like, well, here's the answers. I already know It.

Margie Lachman

Yes. In fact, probably the simplest example is on a vocabulary test when you're in high school taking your SATs, you've got to study these vocabulary words and try to do well on the test. And if you compare performance of a young adult on a vocabulary test with that of a middle aged or older adult, the middle aged and older adult will outperform the young adult just because they have lived longer and they've read more and they know more. It's just a natural process of gaining more knowledge and experience.

Brett McKay

I think another thing that happens in midlife and why it might feel like your fluid intelligence isn't as good as I think in midlife you just have a lot more to think about and use your fluid intelligence for. Because I'm thinking about in my 40s, I'm like juggling work and then I'm juggling kids schedule and I'm juggling paying bills and I'm juggling other responsibilities. And so my fluid intelligence or my prefrontal cortex has got a bunch of stuff in the hopper that's got to sort through. And when I was in my twenties, I hardly had anything going on. I didn't have kids, I didn't have a house, I didn't have much responsibility. And so it was easy to be quicker because I had less to think about.

Margie Lachman

Exactly. I like to think of this in terms of executive functioning. So executive functioning is what we use to juggle schedules and to plan and to organize things. And so multitasking in midlife is huge. And so executive function is still pretty good in midlife. Again, it's on this downward trajectory. But the good news is that all of the experience of juggling and doing all these things in midlife actually is good for you in terms of maintaining your executive function. So the more activities you do, the more things that you do to draw on your executive functioning in midlife, the better able you are to maintain your executive functioning into your later years.

Brett McKay

All right, so having kids can help you and help midlife because you have to balance all that stuff.

Margie Lachman

Absolutely.

Brett McKay

Yeah. Okay. So that's, that's good to know. So you're not going to get dumber in midlife. In fact, you have this crystallized intelligence that can beat that quickness you might have had more of when you're in your 20s. So yeah, that's good to know. I'm glad to know that. One thing I've also noticed people complain about in midlife is that their memory gets worse. Like, ah, where did I put the keys? Why didn't I remember to do this thing? Does our memory get worse in midlife?

Margie Lachman

Yes, to a certain extent it does. Again, it's part of this natural aging process. Most people don't notice major memory changes in midlife. Again, the slowing could affect it. Sometimes it takes a little longer to remember something. You might feel something's on the tip of your tongue, but you can't quite get at it. That starts to happen in midlife, but there are things that are affecting it. Changes in the brain are happening. So things like shrinking of the regions of the brain, cardiovascular disease can affect memory. So yes, there are memory changes in midlife, but for the most part they're not problematic or pathological in the sense that we think about dementia, which that really doesn't happen in midlife. And there are things we can do. So in other words, you can use external memory aids so you don't have to remember phone numbers. You can have them in your contact list and you can have your calendar to remember dates. So even if you are experiencing some memory problems, you can rely on these memory aids to help you.

Brett McKay

Yeah, and also the other thing too, with memory, why it might feel like you don't remember as much. Again, it goes back to that idea. In midlife, you probably just have a lot more stuff to remember. And so, yeah, you have to rely on those memory aids, externalize your memory completely.

Margie Lachman

And in fact, sometimes when we think we're having a memory problem, it's really more of a learning problem. So you go to a party and you meet someone and they tell you you their name, and a few minutes later you don't remember their name. It's not really that your memory is a problem. It's you are paying attention to too many other things. You're at a party, focusing on all these different things, and you probably never got the name into long term memory in the first place. So it's really not a memory problem. But we tend to think, oh my God, my memory is going downhill. And that's not necessarily going to be the case.

Brett McKay

What about going back to the initial idea of the midlife crisis where the guy was talking to artists and writers and things like that, and they just felt like, oh, my best creative days are behind me, I'm going into midlife, all my good ideas are gone. I can't be creative anymore. Do we get less creative and innovative as we get older?

Margie Lachman

Not necessarily. We did a study of inventors, so people who had received patents from the US we started this study because we were really interested in Looking at midlife functioning outside of the lab, most of our cognitive studies are done where we bring people into our lab and give them cognitive tests. We wanted to see how cognitive functions were operating in real world settings. This was one example. The patents, we thought that midlife might be the cognitive sweet spot because of what I talked about a few moments ago. The crystallized intelligence is on the way up and the fluid intelligence, yes, it's on the way down, but it still has a long way to go before it hits bottom. So we kind of saw this point in midlife where we thought it might actually be the best of both worlds. And we looked to see when patents were most common, at what age these patents were most common. And indeed it was in early midlife. They were the most common in the early 40s. It was also the case that many people patented for the first time after age 50, so patenting continued into 50s and beyond. So it's not that all of a sudden your creativity dwindles.

Brett McKay

Yeah. Another thing I've seen is that I think we often have this idea of entrepreneurship. It's like the young entrepreneur, like the Mark Zuckerberg or the Steve Jobs when He was in 20s and he founded Apple. But when the researchers look at it, most successful startups are started by people who are in their 40s or 50s.

Margie Lachman

Yes. So that I think has to do with their decision making and their experience because they've learned from past mistakes and draw on those kinds of experiences. And there are different kinds of intelligences that are working. And so some of the more forward thinking kinds of novel breakthroughs might occur earlier on. In fact, we found something to support that in our patent study. Whereas those in later life, they are also doing innovative things, but they're more drawing on changes to things that they've already worked on, going in new directions with things that have already been established. But those people who are in their 40s and 50s are really at the peak of decision making and have a lot of experience. I also want to add that one of the things we looked at was multi age, mixed generational teams, because many patents are not done by individuals, they're done by teams. And, and we found some preliminary evidence that those patents that were made by people of mixed ages, so having younger and middle aged and older adults actually were the ones who were the most successful.

Brett McKay

All right, that's interesting. All right, so this is good news. You're actually midlife, you're at your peak of creativity in certain ways. Peak of good decision making. So the things you start will probably be more successful. I love to hear this. Let's shift over to our physical health. How does our physical health change in midlife?

Margie Lachman

In many ways, things are going on now. The first thing people notice are the obvious outward changes. So people get reading glasses because of presbyopia and they get gray hair and thinning hair and they feel like they're slowing down. Or when they get an injury, it takes longer to recover. So those are the things you can actually see. But on the inside, there's a lot of things that are also going on. Things like bone loss, muscle loss, change in lung function, immune functioning, all these things are declining slowly. A lot of these things we can do something about, and I think that's what's most important, is that the earlier we start to take note of these kinds of changes and do things to try to modify or prevent decline, the better off we're going to be.

Brett McKay

All right, so you're not doomed to get fatter, weaker and creakier in midlife?

Margie Lachman

Definitely not. But the things that we do know about in midlife, so if you are going for regular checkups and look at your biomarkers like cholesterol or glucose or blood pressure or bmi, what's I think really important to say is that those indicators in midlife are more important for your later life than what happens in later life. Because it's a long process. If you have high blood pressure for 30 years, that's going to do a lot more damage than if you get it later on in life. So it's really important to focus on these things in midlife. It's really making a long term investment in your health. And so if you're able to address some of these health issues in midlife, it's going to pay big benefits later on in life.

Brett McKay

All right, so exercise, eat right, get those checkups because that's going to make your midlife experience more pleasant, get more out of it. But it's also setting you up for a better elderhood.

Margie Lachman

Exactly.

Brett McKay

All right, let's talk about this. What about friendships and relationships? How do those change in midlife?

Margie Lachman

One of the things that happens in midlife is we get so busy with our day to day responsibilities that we sometimes lose track of our relationships that are outside our immediate family. And social relationships are so important for midlife, but even into later life. So if people can maintain friendships in midlife that carry over into later life when it's actually even harder to make new friends, it's really important. And what we find is that it's important to get and give social support to others, and this can be in your family as well as with friends. But we find that one way to maintain friendships is to incorporate it into other activities. So doing things with your family and a lot of friends typically will be from your kids, friends, families. So if you can do things that not only are social with other families and friends, that's a really good way to do it. Or if you want to exercise with other people like your friends, that's also a good way to do it. We call it temptation bundling. Because really what it's doing is you're doing two things that are important. You're seeing your friends, you're talking to your friends, and you're also exercising at the same time. So it kind of does something for the busy people in midlife to try to combine them at the same time.

Brett McKay

Something my wife and I have noticed with our friendships as we've gotten in midlife is it seems like it was a lot easier to make friends when we were younger and our kids were younger. Like, something about that stage of life makes it easier to make friends. Because, you know, young kids, they don't have a lot going on and you can just kind of throw them together and they get along. But when your kids get older, their personalities are more formed and they get along more or less with other kids. And, you know, everyone's got extracurriculars going on at different times. People are busy. So it just, it seems like it just gets harder and harder to sync up. And it seems like if you want friendships in midlife, you have to be even more intentional about it.

Margie Lachman

Yes, I think that makes a lot of sense. And in some ways, it's really upon us to really make a concerted effort to maintain the friendships that we, we had established, especially for the people that you really care about and that you really enjoy. You may not necessarily want to keep up with all the people that you had made friends with earlier on, but to the extent that you are interested in people that you had good relationships with, it does take more effort to maintain those relationships.

Brett McKay

Another thing that could cause stress that's related to relationships in midlife is that when you're in middle age, there's a good chance you have parents who are in their 70s and 80s and they've got health problems and issues that you've got to tend to. But then at the same time, you have kids who might be in their teen years or, you know, just about to enter young adulthood, and there can be stress with that. So when you're in midlife, you're trying to balance both of these sets of relationships.

Margie Lachman

Yes, this is what we call the sandwich generation. Right. The middle aged adult who has kids who are still depending on them and they require a lot of attention. And then their parents are starting to have health problems or aging in ways that require assistance. And there's a large percentage of those who are in middle age who are faced with this kind of squeezing between generations. And it can be very stressful because you're also needing to focus on your own health and well being and your own work. That said, I think that this may be the time in midlife where you just have to address this need and realize it's not going to last forever. Your kids are going to grow up and your parents are not going to live forever. So it is a crunch time in a way. And I think one of the reasons that midlife is ideal in a way to be able to handle this kind of squeeze between generations is because of this notion of generativity. This was a concept developed by a famous psychoanalyst named Erik Erickson, and he called generativity the main task for those who are in midlife. So it's really concern for the next generation. And midlife people are really good at it. It may take its form as parenting, but it can also take its form and as mentoring younger people at work. And so at that time in midlife, not only are you being generative to other people who are younger than you, but you're also now taking care of people who are older who are depending on you. And that does create a crunch.

Brett McKay

Yeah, but I think the idea is just to embrace that idea. Like I'm, I'm the adult now. Like I'm the person in charge and I have all these talents and these skills and this experience and. And I'm in a position to do a lot of good during this time.

Margie Lachman

But what we find is that social support can go both ways. You can give social support and receive social support. And the ideal situation is a balance, giving and receiving. In midlife, it turns out that the balance is tipped towards giving. You're giving more to other people. As you get into later life, it may flip and you may be able to reap the benefits of all your giving and be able to receive more social support.

Brett McKay

Okay, so besides just thinking about, okay, this is just going to be a short period of time, maybe change your mindset about this period where I can be generative about this. Any other tactics you found that are useful to help people manage this sandwich generation crunch.

Margie Lachman

One thing to keep in mind is that research shows that giving social support is good for your health. It's not only that it's benefiting the people you're giving the support to, it actually benefits your own health. So if you think of it as I'm being active and I'm juggling a lot of different things, but I'm doing something that's purposeful and meaningful, I think that can really go a long way towards helping people feel that this is really something that is good for me as well as for the people that I'm helping.

Brett McKay

Yeah, I also think too just making sure you carve out time for yourself. If you're starting to feel really overwhelmed, just take a step back and maybe find some other people that can help, you know, fill in while you take, you know, a weekend off just to take care of yourself.

Margie Lachman

Great point.

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Brett McKay

So, I mean, one of the, the big points in your book is that midlife you call, you know, the title of your book is prime time. Midlife can be the prime time of your life. And I think what we talked about in this conversation is that a lot of these myths that we have about midlife, not necessarily true. Yes, there's some downsides, but there's a lot of benefits to being in your 40s and 50s. And you know, going back to this idea of mindset you talked about, the people who successfully navigate midlife, they take what you call a gain frame mindset as opposed to a loss frame mindset. What's the difference between those two mindsets?

Margie Lachman

The gain view is thinking that you can improve and make changes and go in new directions. And that's really in contrast to the loss view which many people hold, which is that things go downhill with age and there's really nothing I can do about it. So being game frame means asking, what can I still build instead of what am I losing? And so this mindset goes a long way. If you think there's nothing you can do, then you really won't do anything. So in this case, really having a gain frame means that you're going to invest the time and energy on your psychological, cognitive, physical and social well being and that will bring big benefits.

Brett McKay

Yeah. And you gave throughout the book lots of case studies of individuals who took this gain frame mindset. People who maybe they hit their 40s and they weren't where they wanted to be in their career. And instead of thinking, well, it's over for me, I had my shot and I didn't get it. I'm going to go back to school, get an education and something else, and I'm going to try something new because I've got plenty of time left.

Margie Lachman

I think when you get to age 40 or 50, some people think it's the end. There's not much time left, but you have half your life left. So I like to say think of your life as half full, not half empty. That approach, I think, goes a long way towards being able to conceive of making big changes. There's many things that you can do. And yes, there were some examples. For example, the guy that got his PhD at age 72, when he was in his 30s, he had started towards his PhD, but he had to put it on hold, what I call goal shelving. So he couldn't do it because of his family situation. He did other things, but it never left his mind. He always really wanted to get that degree. So he went back to school in his 60s when it was possible, and he got his PhD at age 72. So there are many inspiring stories of people who accomplish things that they couldn't do earlier on.

Brett McKay

Yeah, I love that idea, that tactic of goal shelving. Can you tell us more about that?

Margie Lachman

Yes. So sometimes you can't do things right here and now. So you're very busy. You maybe. I think the idea of getting a degree is one thing, but maybe even changing professions or changing jobs. It may not be possible when you're in the thick of things, having financial obligations and things like that. And so you might decide, I'm not going to be able to do it now, but I'm going to work towards it. Say you want to get a new profession. I have a story in the book of somebody who was a social worker but really wanted to be an interior designer. Now, she didn't have the skills to be an interior designer, but she couldn't give up her social work job. And so she kind of goal shelved the goal, the new goal of being an interior designer. But she didn't let it go completely. In her spare time, she was taking courses and reading and trying things out so that she could see how that profession might turn out later on. And once she was equipped with the right skills, she was able to change from being a social worker to being interior designers. So even if you put something on hold, it doesn't mean that you have to completely abandon it. You can be doing things to learn and acquire the kind of skills to optimize your skills so that ultimately you'll be able to make that change.

Brett McKay

Right. Because you got plenty of time to do it.

Margie Lachman

No one knows how long they're going to live. That's something we do need to acknowledge, but for the most part, statistically speaking, there should be plenty of time.

Brett McKay

Yeah. And you also highlighted people who hit their 40s and they didn't have the relationships, they weren't married. You know, they're like, oh, I'm bummed out, I lost my shot. But like the people who were able to find love, they took the gain frame mindset towards midlife and said, hey, you know, I didn't get married in my 20s or 30s. Maybe kids are off the table at this point, but I want that I can still have it. I can still make it happen for myself.

Margie Lachman

Yes. There's a story in the book about a woman who was very successful professionally and she was, she was happy. She wasn't able to find the right relationship for many, many years and she realized she wasn't going to have children. However, she put herself out there, she went to social events, she was always there doing things. She had opportunities and eventually she did find someone and she got married in her 50s and she wound up having children. They were her new husband's children from a former marriage. So that's a lovely example of how things can turn out.

Brett McKay

Well, if there's one thing you hope people take away from your book after finishing it, what would it be?

Margie Lachman

I would say don't dread midlife. Embrace it. It really is prime time. I do want to say, just because midlife is prime time for those who are beyond midlife, it doesn't mean it goes downhill from there. You can do things in midlife to try to maintain prime time as long as possible. Now we have this negative view of midlife as a time of day, crisis and decline. And what I really hope to do with the book is to replace that narrative to see midlife as a time for growth. And I think there are so many options and things that you can do. It can be a difficult time, a busy time, a stressful time. People are on autopilot because they have so much going on. And so I don't want people to miss the joys of midlife. I want them to really realize that there are so many things in midlife that are important for you, for those who are younger and older, and also for your long term health and well being. And so this is a time where you can use your skills that you've developed over the years and there's still plenty of time. So I like to think of midlife as an opportunity rather than a period of crisis or loss. And in that sense, that mindset of thinking of midlife that way really can help people change for the better.

Brett McKay

I love it. Well Margie, this has been a great conversation. Where can people go to learn more about the book and your work?

Margie Lachman

Well, I have a website, Margielockman.com, which would be a great place. I put a lot of information about my research on that website, so I would suggest that as a starting place.

Podcast Host/Interviewer

Fantastic.

Brett McKay

Well, Margie Lachman, thanks for having it's been a pleasure.

Margie Lachman

Thank you so much, Brett.

Brett McKay

My guest today is Margie Lachman. She's the author of the book Primetime. It's available on Amazon.com and bookstores everywhere. You can find more information about our work at our website Margielockman.com also check out our shownotes at AOM is Primetime where you can find links to resources. We delve deeper into this topic. Well, that wraps up another edition of the AWIM podcast. If you haven't done so already, I'd appreciate it if you take one minute to give us a review on the podcast player that you use to listen to the show. And if you've done that already, thank you. Please consider sharing the show with a friend or family member you think with something out of it. As always, thank you for the continued support. Until Next Time's Brett McKay reminding Time Listen Podcast. But put what you've heard into.

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