A

One thing I've learned about eating well is that it's usually not a motivation problem, it's a convenience problem. When I'm hungry and busy, I'm going to eat whatever's easiest. That's why I like to keep factor meals in the fridge. Factor makes it easy to stick with my nutrition goals because the decision is already made. The meals are fully prepared, designed by dietitians, crafted by chefs, and they're ready in about two minutes. No grocery shopping, no meal prep, no cleanup. My favorite is still the filet mignon. It's high in protein, tastes great and and it feels like a real meal instead of, you know, quote unquote. Healthy Food Factor also has options, whether your goal is more protein, calorie management or overall nutrition. Everything arrives fresh, never frozen, and there are more than 100 rotating meals so you don't get burned out eating the same thing every week. I use factor and I think it's one of the easiest ways to stay on track nutritionally, so I think you should check it out. Head to factor meals.com manliness50off and use code MANLINESS50OFF to get 50% off your order and free daily greens per box with new subscriptions only one while supplies last until September 27, 2026. See website for more details. Check it out today. Brett McKay here, and welcome to another edition of the AOM podcast, which since 2008 has featured conversations with the world's best authors, thinkers and leaders that glean their edifying life improving insights without the fluff and filler. The AOM Podcast is just one part of the McKay mission to help individuals practice timeless virtues through thought, word and deed. Also, be sure to explore our articles in artofmanlies.com read the deeper dives we do in our substack newsletter@dyingbreed.net and turn our content into real world action by joining the Strenuous Life program@strenuouslife.com now on to the show. Most people assume that if a goal is hard to achieve, getting there has to feel hard too. We tend to believe that extraordinary results require extraordinary suffering, but my guest says the secret of success isn't gritting your teeth, it's making the path enjoyable. His name is Jia Zheng, and in his new book Easy Discipline, he argues that consistency comes from designing your work in your life so that doing the right thing becomes something you actually want to do. Today on the show, Jia explains the difference between hard and easy discipline, why eating bitterness isn't the best way to go after your ambitions and how to make your work feel more like play without lowering your standards. Along the way, we discussed Soviet hockey, Japanese tea ceremonies, rejection therapy, one action goals, and the power of pursuing aims that are an expression of who you are. After the show's over, check out our show notes at AOWIM is easy. All right, Jajiang, welcome to the show.

B

So glad to be here. Brad.

A

So you got a new book out called Easy Discipline. We're going to talk about what easy discipline means, but I want to start off with how you started your book off because you started with the myth of Sisyphus, which is one of my favorite myths. So for those who aren't familiar with it, what is the myth of Sisyphus?

B

So Sisyphus in Greek mythology is this king and he's really smart. And he's so smart that he tricked Zeus, the Greek God, and he tricked him three times. He even cheated death. So Zeus was rage mad. So he cursed Sisyphus to push a rock up a hill forever. And just right before the rock would hit the mountain, the rock would roll back down to the bottom and Sisyphus would have to go back down to the bottom and push it again. And he does this over and over again for eternity. So I'm sure you've seen this picture of this guy pushing up a rock forever. That symbolizes the futility of our effort. So sometimes our work, our daily life feels like we're Sisyphus. We just keeps going, but we can never reach to the top.

A

And we often think, man, Sisyphus, he just must be really depressed about this. But you flip this interpretation on its head and you think, well, let's think about this another way.

B

Yeah. Because first of all, this is not real. This is like Greek mythology. Right? But I was thinking what was this curse on? Is this curse on Sisyphus? Like is he brain dead? Is he just body controlled like a zombie? Then if that's the case, he's already dead. You know, this is just a horror show, not necessarily some sort of tragedy. But if this were to teach us something, that also means if Sisyphus has agency, if he's one who can he choose to push the rock? If he could, that must mean that he actually going back to the bottom with rock on purpose. He was the one who chooses to push the rock up forever, even though he never hits the top. So if he had agency, then what's the reason for him to do this? You know, after the first try, the second try, maybe the one mutants try, because this is forever, right? He Must have given up, just do something else, you know, have some hot pot or something. But he continued to do it. That only means probably one thing. He loves pushing rocks. So instead of being forced to push rocks, if he loved to push rocks, then this is not a curse. This is a huge blessing. Zeus just built Sisyphus an exercise machine that's better than Peloton or crossfit combined. So that's where I got this idea from. If Sisyphus loves to push rocks, of course he wouldn't stop. And this is not a tragedy. This. This is a great endeavor. If it happened in modern times, people would make statues for Sisyphus and people would invite him for TED talks and talking about how disciplined he is and what kind of work ethic he has. And the thing is, in modern times, though, if you see the people who are at real mountaintops, right, the people who are at the best of industry, the people who are breaking through, the people who are redefining industries, those are the people who are like Sisyphus, the better version of Sisyphus. They choose to push the rocks because they enjoy the work. And in reality, they not only make it to the top, they make one top to another, and they just keep going. So that's how I flip the story of Sisyphus from a tragedy to like a hero story.

A

Yeah. I think Albert Camus, the existential writer, he talks about this too, and he does the same sort of thing. I mean, he looks at the myth of Sisyphus and you think, well, he's probably just depressed. And he's like, no, let's imagine Sisyphus happy. You know, he's happy just pushing this rock up. And this ties into your idea of easy discipline because. Yeah, I think oftentimes when we think about being disciplined, we look at people who do great things, who exercise every day, who build big companies, who write books, and we think, oh, my gosh, they're just using all this willpower. They're just white knuckling through this. But you're thinking your approach is, no. Most people who do things consistently, you know, hard things consistently, they probably actually really enjoy what they're doing, and that's why they do it. So, yeah, that's easy discipline. And I guess you contrast easy discipline with hard discipline. Can you describe how you describe hard discipline in your book?

B

Yeah, the hard discipline is really. Our society worships this idea that you have to tolerate pain to succeed, because great endeavors, a great achievement. It feels like the achievements are hard. That means you must also feel hard who can tolerate more pain to have the great success? But the thing is, that's the wrong way to think about it. Because if you only love the result, which is success, money, whatever, recognition, but you don't like the process, you just think, okay, if I can hold this long enough, somehow I can get to the other side of this, the rainbow, and hit the gold pot. And most people think this way. What end up happening is they never make it. And even if they make it, you know, they give up. Because this is against human nature. Just like, you know, in physics, if something like pushing a rock up in physics, if the gravity is against you, you're going to forever feel like you're in pain. You're going to forever feel like you're looking for the next out. You're looking for the next reason to quit. And then when you quit, you're like, okay, let me take a break. Let me have some fun. I'll come back to this. The problem is often we never come back to this. So that's why, you know, if you see New Year's resolutions, right, about 50% of people make a New Year's resolution every year. You know, we're going to lose weight, make more money, find love, whatever that is, get a promotion, start a company. But the thing is, only 9% of people who make the resolution keep it. That's because they only set the resolution for results, and they think the results is what they want, and they don't like the action. To get there, you need consistent exercise in the dieting, you need to network, you need to do all kinds of things you don't enjoy. But people rely on hard discipline and they fail.

A

Yeah. So you're Chinese, and there's this saying in China that you talk about this idea where you're focused on the results, but you don't actually want to do the thing to get you those results. It's hard. High eyes, low hands, disease. What is that? Flesh that out for us.

B

This is the disease people describe me when I was little. So it literally means your eyes are set on high goals. You want to achieve all kind of things, whether you have this ambition in life or you just kind of, you know, want to have a New Year's resolution. Or maybe you're just motivated for today. But the low hands, meaning you can't do it. You. You can execute on your ambition. You know, I had this roommate when I was in college, and every day, like almost every day, he would talk to me about his dreams. I'm like, cool. So he want to go to Las Vegas and start a gym in Las Vegas. And he's so passionate about it. He's just talking about this every day. But his everyday action has nothing to do with that. He just goes home and watch TV every day. And I'm like, that's a classic high eyes, no hands disease. You say you have high dreams, you tell everyone about it, but you don't do anything about it. That's hard discipline.

A

Yeah. Because they don't actually like to do the thing that will get them to that goal.

B

That's true. They just want the end result, but they don't do it.

A

When you talk about in the book how in Western culture, we really moralize and valorize people who use willpower and grit their teeth and they do things even when it's uncomfortable and unpleasant. But this idea isn't unique to Western culture. You talk about in China, where you're from, there's this idea of eating bitterness, which is interesting. I love that phrase, eating bitterness. What does eating bitterness mean?

B

Yeah, if just anywhere you are, you grab a person who speaks Chinese, you know, who's familiar with Chinese culture, if you ask them, they will say, yeah, that's really the fundamental culture in China. When you're a student, the teachers will constantly tell you to eat bitterness, meaning you have these ambitious goals and sometimes very honorable goals. Right. But the idea is to get there, you need to have a real discipline. You need to do the hard work without complaining. Right. Eating bitterness. And then if you eat enough bitterness, you get to your goal, whether that's individual goal or a collective goal. Now, the thing is, I hate eating bitterness. I suck at eating bitterness. I didn't want bitterness. I'm always like, oh, yeah, I'm gonna eat enough. You know, let me work hard. And it's not sustainable. I don't want to eat bitterness for the rest of my life or even for the rest of the project. You know, even I can finish one project, the next one, I'm like, give me something sweet. That's really why I wrote this book about how do you find the sweetness in your work rather than bitterness.

C

Yeah.

A

And I love in the chapter, you just kind of describe the difference between easy and hard discipline. You have this great story from the Soviet hockey team, and for a while, they were the dominant team in hockey. And I think a lot of people thought these Soviets were so good because they were, like, not human. They were robots. And there was some truth to that. But if you look at the story more, there was actually a period where they Took the easy discipline approach to success. Tell us about these different philosophies in the same Soviet team.

B

Yeah. So the background of the Soviet team was, you know, the Cold War, right? So after World War II, the Soviet Union was like, you know, we're going to be good at hockey because hockey started in Canada, and Russia was just like Canada in a completely different political system. You know, they were vast. They're like, we're so cold, and we need to be good at hockey, like the Canadians. So they asked this guy, his name is Tarasov, Anatoly Tarasov. He's like, can you build a Russian team, like a national team for us? And he was not a hockey coach to start. He was like a watchmaker. But this guy was really smart, but also he's very artistic. So he was like, okay, I can build this team. So he didn't have a game tape, right? He just knew the rules. And so he was like, how do I design a team that is fun? So he used tactics from, you know, chess, from ballet, from watchmaking. He built this team of this intricate passing. And the players, instead of like the Canadians, just racing up and down, they're fast, they're strong. The Russians were skating diagonally to have this beautiful passing game. It's almost like a tiki taka. Soccer, you know, and that's like 50 years later. So he built this scheme, but more importantly, he built a team that people loved each other. You know, it's funny that because of during the Cold War and we have this stereotype that these Russians, they were just like machines. They would bite people, right? They're just biologically engineered people who just make to play hockey. That's why they were so good, right? They, in fact, won, like, they had, like, 70% gold medal rate for the Olympics and also world championships for, like, 40 years. That was insane. That was insane. So he built this team, and the players love the game. And, you know, in fact, he had a requirement that, you know, if you don't love the game, don't play. You got to smile. So the players loved the game. The player loved each other. The players loved him. They saw him as this fatherly figure, and they all worked really hard, but no one complained. People loved it. And that's the classic example of easy discipline. He made the game so much fun and so much camaraderie and so much love for each other that people naturally worked hard to achieve the result. Now, that was only half the story, because he was the Soviet team. He was, for the first almost 20 years right. He built this dynasty that just kept winning. And then he got fired because, of course, right, he didn't get along with the Soviet top brass, so he got fired. And the guy who succeeded him was the protege of the chief KGB boss in Soviet Russia. And he used Tarasov's scheme because that was proven to be successful. But his motivation tactics was completely the opposite. He borrowed, like, KGB tactics or military training tactics or even animal training tactics. He locked these players up and trained them as hard. He used fear tactic, and he was this totally ruthless boss. And if you think. You know, in the US we think Bobby Knight, right, was the guy who was like, this big bully, but he got the results. So Tikonov was this coach. He was this Bobby Knight times 10. People hated him, but people feared him. So they also worked hard and they also succeeded. And that's really the irony of the story. It's different if I write a story of, like, a romance, that only love can win, right? Only easy discipline can win. No, hard discipline can win, too. But the problem is people hated him. And. And people quit. You know, they quit their hockey early. And the players all, looking back in those days, they were like, those are the my. I mean, they got a bunch of gold medals, but they were saying, my youth was wasted. No one really liked him and sometimes didn't even respect him as a. A person because he was so ruthless and he didn't have any invention. You know, he won, but he didn't define the sports the. The way, you know, the way Tarasov did. So I use the contrast of Tarasov and Tikonov to see this. Easy discipline versus hard discipline.

A

Yeah. I think it's a great story, a great encapsulation. I. I think the. The takeaway. I. I think I loved how you said, like, hard discipline does work. It can work, but it's not sustainable in the long run.

B

No. Especially not on a personal level. And if you just cycle in all kind of peoples and just run them to the ground and you get the next talent, you can do it. People do it. But the thing is, would you want to live in that world? And also would you want to be that kind of a boss, to be a big bully for the long term?

A

Well, so what you do in this book is you lay out some principles on how to embrace easy discipline. It's an acronym. I love it. It's easy. E, A, S, Y. The first principle is enjoyment. And this is. This is all about enjoying what you do. What we've been talking about, if you're Going to push rocks up a mountain for eternity. Well, you might as well enjoy it if that's your thing. And with each of these principles, you've developed tools people can use to put them into practice for the enjoyment. One, the tool to kind of, you know, flip on the switch of enjoyment is something you call the game changer. What is that and what does that look like in practice?

B

So the game changer is you're given a task, maybe you're at work and you don't enjoy your work. I mean, in fact, a lot of people don't. We would love to say everyone love their work, they will find their calling. But. But most people actually just do it for the paycheck or they do it, try to get to the next level, right? They don't necessarily enjoy the work, and that's why sometimes it's hard for them to succeed. If you don't enjoy your work, you get stuck. You just do your thing and then you move on to the next text. So I call this game changer, meaning if you don't enjoy your work, try to play a different role, Try to change the game. Don't play a game that everyone else is playing. You know, you changed it to, to a different game. I'll give you an example. So I used to hate making sales calls because deep down I don't feel like I'm a pushy salesperson, you know, and sometimes I have a hard time to make that, that ask, you know, to make that push. So I was never good at sales until one day I started switching roles. I started playing a different game. I'm like, okay, instead of trying to play the game of see how much I can sell, what if I change my role? What if I play a different game? Let me play a game of being a consultant. Let me be an advisor or even counselor. So when I try to talk to people now, even the prospect or whatever, I try to understand what his or her issues are, you know, what their biggest challenges are and just keep asking questions. And I would be like, okay, if after this call, if I can understand their issue more than they do, and if I can even articulate the problem they're facing, I can help them. So that's the role change I do. You know, that's a game, different game I play. And then the result was amazing, you know, because now I'm become a way better salesperson. If I ask the right questions, if I try to learn the other person rather than just try to make a sale, if I don't focus on that result I hate. I actually get better at that result because I play a different game that I love. So that's really game changer. You know, you can do this in writing, you know, in sales, in management, in leadership. If you don't like what you're doing, change your goal, change your game to something you love so you can get behind.

A

Yeah, I've seen that with fitness. So a lot of people, they want to exercise regularly so they maybe they start something that they see on Instagram or YouTube and they hate it and so they just stop. And I'm like, well, you need to just find something you like doing and you just haven't found it yet. So try some different stuff. And once you find that exercise is just going to be something you enjoy doing, you're never going to miss a workout because you just love doing this thing.

B

Yeah, absolutely. So I changed my game in this peculiar realm as well. You know, I, ever since I was a teenager, my uncle told me, you got to become stronger. You got to, you know, you're a man, you know, this is the art of manliness, right? So he had this very, you know, kind of a little bit old fashioned way of seeing manliness. It's like you gotta be able to be very strong. So, you know, when, if someday a woman's with you, she needs to feel she's protected. So you need to go exercise, run, lift weight, you know. So I, I love my uncle and I did what he said and. But the thing is, I hate this idea of going to a gym and lifting weight because that's like, you know, what do I do? Do I do this and do I do that? And I started running like five miles a day. And then it was never sustainable. It was great for a week and after that it's over. So until I started playing a different game. Like I. What really changed for me is P90X. You know, I mean, I'm sure you've heard this in the late, in the late 2000s, early 2010s, Tony Horton, he invented this, this kind of home gym stuff where you don't have to think. He built a program with huge variety. And you should pop, you know, back then was a dvd. You know, you pop the DVD in your tv, you just do what he does and you just follow him. He's really funny. And that's a complete game changer for me because now I don't have to think, I just follow what he does. It was fun. Now every day, I still, like almost two decades now, I still do it and not P90X, but I do different programs. You know, I follow this woman. Her name is Caroline Girvin. I love what she does. And so she does YouTube. I just follow her. And also I bought a peloton. Now every day I work out. I cannot not work out. I don't feel good if I don't work out. Because the things I'm doing is so much more fun than the ways I was doing before.

A

All right, so the first principle is enjoyment. And one tool for that is to figure out how you can reach the same goal, but do it with an approach you actually like doing. You're changing the game. Another tool you have for this enjoyment principle is the momentum loop. What's the momentum loop?

B

Momentum loop is if everything that you do is repetitive, if every day your work is similar, right? What you want is you want to build momentum into your work. I mean, I learned this, you know, play settler of catan. You know, now just called catan, right? So in catan, everyone has a similar actions, right? You take turn buying stuff, and the stuff will bring you more resource. You can buy more stuff, and in the end, see who has the most stuff wins. You know, basically, it's like kind of like Monopoly. But the thing is, the people who win are always the people who are very aggressive to build momentum at the beginning. So if in every turn you do your hardest to trade and build the most up, and then those actions will have better results and the more results will get in would actually catch momentum on its own. So eventually you become a flywheel, right? You just keep going and the momentum will carry you forward. So every day, if you do the same task I tell people, build momentum into your work. The thing that you do, try to learn from what you did yesterday and then apply that exact thing to what you're doing today. And then you learn the stuff you do today and apply that tomorrow. So in a way, when you're doing things, you start catching momentum, mental momentum. And the thing that you do 20 days down the road would actually be way better than what you're doing right now. You become expert, quit. You become better, result quicker. So that's what I call momentum loop.

A

And you talk about how you used momentum loops on this crazy experiment you did. And it's kind of what put you on the map. It made you famous because it went viral. It was this idea of 100 days of rejection therapy where you reduced your fear of rejection by deliberately seeking it out. So instead of avoiding situations where someone might say no, you intentionally Went around making these unusual and uncomfortable requests. So, you know, for example, you asked a stranger to borrow $100. You asked a homeowner if you could play soccer in their backyard. You asked a Southwest airlines employee if you can make an announcement over the intercom. Tell us more about your rejection therapy experiment and how you used momentum loops in it.

B

So I did this about a decade ago. My long term dream was to be an entrepreneur. So I built my company. I was trying to look for funding. I got rejected was investment. And I found out how much I hated rejection. And, you know, the number one thought that came to my mind was, I want to quit. So I was like, you know, I can't feel like this. I got to be tougher. I got to be more fearless toward rejection. So I did this thing called 100 days of rejection therapy. The idea was, instead of running away from rejection, you look for rejection and you do this for 100 days. And, you know, I film myself doing this and I make a, you know, YouTube vlog at the time. And I was sharing this with world because if do this by myself, I'll quit easily. But if I share this with other people, people hold me accountable in. My vlog went viral with millions of views. In fact, if you go to TikTok nowadays, or even YouTube and TikTok, you see a lot of people doing rejection therapy. And many of them started because they saw me doing this a decade ago. Sometimes crazy. It's crazy. You start a movement that just keeps going and someone else is doing it. That's really funny. But I did this for 100 days. So the trick is people are telling me, no, man, ja. What you're doing is hard. I can't do it. It's a rejection. This sucks. How can you do it for 100 days? It must be really courageous. I was like, no, I was just having fun. I was having a great time. You know, wasn't courageous. Looking for rejection was fun if I saw it that way. So I made sure I had fun. But more importantly, I tried to apply what I learned to today to tomorrow. So I started coming up with a whole list of ideas. You know, I would try to observe how my interaction went. And then I wrote down. Not just wrote down, I actually wrote to other people. I share my learnings. I start tabulating an amazing list of negotiation tactics. You know, how my posture should be when I talk to people, what my energy should be, Should I smile? And how do I put the other person at ease if that person says no, how do I turn the no into a yes. And how do I position my request? My question in a way that I get more yeses. So I start tabulating these learnings and I became so good. So good. And rejection. Like, at the end, I feel I can ask anyone anything, anywhere, and then there's a better chance I get yes than a no. And so much so that I develop a career out of this. You know, companies start seeing, man, this guy knows what he's talking about. Our people are afraid of rejection, you know, our salespeople or our employees. So let's invite him to give a talk. So I started speaking at different companies and I became one of the top speakers for over 10 years now because I started just catching momentum. I started writing down everything I learned and I started applying to real world experiences.

A

And you were having fun while you were doing it.

B

100%. I think rejection therapy became this popular, become this fun is because, you know, people see the joy in this and this is a huge paradox. How do you find joy in the most painful thing people are afraid of? But if you flip it, if you add knowledge and add enjoyment and add momentum to it, you can totally have fun. You can totally make this a piece of art.

A

My favorite one. And I always laugh when I read it. You were at a fast food restaurant and you went up to the front and you asked them for a burger refill. Like, like you'd ask for a drink refill, that which are free. And you're like, hey, can I get a burger refill?

B

Yeah. Again, the thing is, the reason I was able to do this is because I'm gonna have, you know, I was like, I gotta have fun, right? If I don't crack myself up, I'm not doing this right. So I thought, what's funny? Let me just ask for a burger refill. And did he say yes?

A

Oh, he said no.

B

He, he, he, he said no. But the thing is, after he said no, I stay engaged. I kept smiling, I kept making jokes. They kept, like saying, trying to negotiate. And I didn't feel bad anymore. Like the first day, I felt bad after making that request because I was so scared. But second day, I was way calmer because I started building momentum. I started learning from the first day. I started learning that I can stay engaged after the initial rejection. I don't have to feel too bad.

A

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What I like is that Quo keeps all your calls, texts and voicemails in one place so anyone on your team can jump into the conversation with the full history. It's easy to set up, works on just about any device, lets you keep your existing number, and grows with you as your business grows. It also has a built in AI agent that can answer after hours calls, respond to common questions, and even book appointments. So even when you're offline, your business is still working. Money is on the line. Always say hello with quo. Try quo for free plus get 20% off your first six months when you go to quo.commanliness that's quo.com, that's spelled q u o.commanliness quo.commanliness. check it out today. And now back to the show. Okay, so the first principle in the easy acronym is enjoyment. And then the second principle is A for artistry. And you say there are two mindsets we can take to whatever it is we're doing. It's the mechanic mindset and the artist mindset. What's the difference between the two?

B

Yeah, so the mechanic, I see this in the entrepreneurial lens. So the mechanic in entrepreneurship is the one who's like, I just want success, I want to succeed and how do I engineer my way to that goal? So in the startup world, there's this thing called a lean startup. So basically you learn, you're a evolutionist, you have this idea, you just iterate, you just learn new things and see how it works. And so you build the most basic thing called mvp, the most ugliest, cheapest thing. Then you try to get user feedback. You know, you put this in people's hand and see how they use it. And then you improve it. You learn, eventually you build a amazing product. So after a thousand iterations, this thing's amazing. So I call this the mechanic mindset. Because the thing is usually doesn't work. There's actually, you know, 15 years since this startup came out. There's actually pretty strong study to say this actually doesn't work because sometimes if you just want to succeed, you started with the worst thing, like the mvp. A lot of times people wouldn't give you the chance to improve it. Sometimes people are not drawn to it because it's so ugly, because this is not good. And I call this the mechanic mindset. The other mindset is the artist mindset, which was, okay, what product can I make that I love? What is the thing that I can do that, that, that moves me? Instead of trying to say what can I do to actually succeed? What, what moves me? What's the expression like? If I can make a product that's expression of who I am, then I can have a better way to succeed and I'll also go longer. I mean, the classic example, I mean, I actually hate to use Steve Jobs as example because so many people are, you know, I mean, so overused. Right? But the funny thing is if you study Steve Jobs, he is famous for making, you know, iPhones or computers, he want to make the inside of those, those product beautiful and he would stare at the screws inside the iPhone. He would stare at the circuit boards inside the Mac. And he was like, we got to make this beautiful. We got this. Makes this so, you know, so symmetrical. And the engineers will be like, are you crazy? You know, no one's going to see this. People are going to see the outside of the product, not inside. But. But he's like, no, if you're an artist that, you know, you want to make sure the inside is as beautiful as the outside. And then when. When they finish the product, they spend a lot more time to actually make the inside even more beautiful. And he would ask the people to sign their. To sign the product. And it's like, you know, artists always sign their work. And if you look at Steve Jobs, right, he see himself as an entrepreneur. You know, people think he's. He's a technologist, he's a great designer. But the word he described himself the most is artist. That's what I say. The artist mindset. The artist mindset is you want to make things beautiful. You want to make things that make you happy. You want to make things that move people. If you see actually the products that we love, whether it's, you know, computers or cars, the people who. The most successful ones are the. They make products that people love. They didn't make the most ugly product. They iterate their way to success. They actually made stuff that. That resonates with people. And that's what I call the artist mindset. You lean deep into your emotions and build something that's beautiful, that make you proud, and then you succeed.

A

And one of the tools you. You have for this principle is the idea of this Japanese tea ceremony. Ichigo ichi. Did I say that right?

B

Ichigo ichie.

A

Yeah, Ichigo ichie. How can this Japanese tea ceremony help us approach things more like an artist?

B

So one day I went to Japan, and they have this traditional tea ceremony. If you've ever been to Japan, that's something I highly recommend. Not because it's so fancy, but because it's so central. So basically, you sit there, you know, with the host, and then the host will serve you tea, and she'll make moves and talk to you. And the thing is, you are so present in those moments when you are at the tea ceremony, you're not thinking about trying to achieve some sort of result. I wasn't there trying to impress the host and make some sales. No, I'm just there to be present and enjoy that moment, enjoy that conversation with the host. So ichigo ichie literally means one Life one meeting. In that moment, I'm meeting that host for the only time in our lives. Even if I meet her later, and in fact, even if I meet her every day, that moment is something that cannot be replicated. I'd be fully present. I need to be fully enjoying it. I need to give my best. By having that mindset, I start taking that mindset into everything I do, into every meeting I have, into every conversation that I have. I started be like, how can I make art? How can I have the most fun? How can I make this, this conversation most impactful and meaningful? Just I'm enjoying this the most. So when I have that mindset, I started talking differently, I started acting differently, I started not having fear. Before. When I have sales meetings or conversations at the back of my mind, I always had a goal. The goal was whether to make a sale or maybe make the other person like me. What ended up happening was I'm so goal oriented that I'm not very present. In fact, I'm very fearful because what if I'm not getting to my goal? What if I'm not liking this conversation? I started contorting myself in a way, trying to make the other person like me and. And the other person doesn't like me that much as a result. But by having this artist mindset, I lean into these conversations. And all I wanted was to have fun. And I can say the weirdest thing, I can make the weirdest joke. I have no fear because I, you know, I'm making art. In those conversations, I end up having way better conversations. I end up having like, way better sales calls and consultation calls and coaching calls. Because I lean in, I lean deep. So that's what Ichigo Ichef taught me.

A

I love that. So treat every moment as a Japanese tea ceremony. Be present, make it one of a kind. I love that. So another principle is systems. And this one's interesting because on the surface, it looks like you're taking a hard discipline approach to life. So what do you mean by creating systems? And how does this encourage easy discipline?

B

Yeah, like with easy, there are four different characters. You say the enjoyment is the happy. Go. Lucky guy. Right. Just. Just go with the flow. And. And artistry is a person who goes deep, who's like, you know what can I make this most amazing thing? And system is a completely different character. It's like this accountant, this factory worker, just clocks in and clocks out. But what I'm saying is, first of all, you should already love your work. You should already love the work. But how can you get the most of your work? How can you actually get even more effort based on something you love? And that's what I call systems. So there are a lot of systems. Like the thing I learned the most was from one of the most creative guys you will see. So Jim Collins, he wrote this like amazing book, Good to Great and Built to Last, two of the most transformative books in business history. But if you ask him what is the secret? And you would think like, maybe he had a AI 20 years before we all did. Maybe he was just really smart. And then of course he was. Or maybe he's like doing psychedelics, being so creative. No, he's got a system. He's like, my secret is he had a spreadsheet and he had a clock. So he would, every day he wants to, he has this like a 1000 hour rule, meaning in 365 days in a year, he want to have over a thousand hours of creative work and use the clock to clock himself in and out. Every day he's doing creative work and he would put that on a spreadsheet and he's like, you know, he's having so much fun when he does that clock in and clock out and write it down. People think that's crazy. But he's got a systems and that system enabled him to keep track, to do his creative work and to be highly disciplined. I mean, he's been doing this for decades. So every time he look back through for, for 365 days, his creative time has never dropped below 1000. And that's what enabled him to be so prolific in writing books and being so creative. And if you look at the people who succeed in the long term, they all had a system of some sort. So Stephen King, you know, right, he, he writes a thousand words a day. He just does it. And there are people who do the most creative work in the morning, you know, and they will be like, this is the time I do it. So they do a time blocking. So whatever system you want to have, a system that helps you to make sure that, that you do this work and you don't have to think when should that work? You just automatically do it. So that's why I think being system smart is really important. You know, people think about book smart and street smart. I talk about system smart. Can you have the right system for you to do the work? So you have to think about it.

A

How have you used this principle in your own life?

B

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Every day. Every day. So I built this thing called One action goal, meaning to achieve an outcome I want, I just focus on that action. You know, I don't just focus on the goal. I focus on the leading indicators that mean the actions that would take me to the goal. So I'll give you a personal example. I have a lot of business example, but I'll give you a personal example. I wanted to be a better father. At the time, I had a little kids, the kids that were two to, you know, three to four and five. And just to be honest, I didn't like kids that much, you know, And I mean, I love them. I love all of them. I would die for them for sure. But I didn't enjoy spending time with kids. And as a result, I wasn't good. You know, every time I'd be like, this is my duty, you know, I want to be a good father, so let me play with them. That was classic hard discipline. My goal was to be a better father, but I didn't enjoy the action. So I was eating bitterness. And how could I be a good father if I'm eating bitterness, you know, being there with my kids? So I said, okay, what can I do to actually make this easy? How can I turn this into easy discipline? So I built a system. Instead of focusing on the result of being a better father, I built a system to make me spending better time. So I had this system called magic time. So I would set these goals, whether that's some sort of helping us to do some house chores or whatever, or to go to bed on time. I'll set these goals for the kids. If they achieve those daily goals, I'll give them a poker chip when they get 10. Poker chips would go on a father son date, you know, over the weekend. On those days, I would be artists. We would just do all the crazy things. We'd have the most fun. For example, we'd go to store and have the kids push me around and we'd take a nap at the dog food pile in a shelf. We would take a nap on the dog food and would build like a fortress using toilet papers. And anyway, so we would have the most fun. And the kids loved it and I loved it. So one, they started being much more responsible. They started trying to fulfill their goals. I set for them because they want that poker chip. And the result of all their effort is spending time with me. So we both value these times. We're very open about this. You know, we, we try to have a great relationship. And now they, they tell me I'm a great father. So I'm very proud of that. So that's the one example of this one action goal, you know, going on father son days was kids that enable me to achieve, achieve my ultimate goal, which is be a better father.

A

All right, so find a one action goal. So how would a one action goal differ from the way people typically set goals?

B

Yeah, most people set goals to our outcome goals. If you've seen years resolution, you're seeing people, I want to lose 20 pounds, I want to find love this year. I want to start my own company. I want to get promoted. I want to make, I don't know, $500,000. Like I want to make a million dollars this year. People write these words down and those, those are meaningless because they're just there. In fact, by the time February rolls in, you're already giving up. I mean, these goals that started out as inspiration became laughing stock. I mean, it became some sort of distraction because you lose confidence every time you look at it. You're so far away from the goal. So I don't believe in outcome goals. I mean, I believe them, but I don't focus on them. I set New Year's resolutions as this year my goal is to have 50 father son days. I want to exercise 500 hours and I want to write for 1000 hours, you know, so these are the one action goals that I set goal to be something I do. And if I achieve those goals, and by the way, I track them every day on the spreadsheet just like Jim Collins did. And I have my own flavor, I build my own color scheme into it. I build my range to see if I'm on track or if I'm off track. So I built all these tools to actually encourage myself keep going. And that in itself became fun. And but by focusing on this one action goals, I get way better result. You know, I became way more disciplined and achieved those outcomes.

A

Yeah, I love that. So I've done that with my own stuff, especially with fitness. I always bring go back to fitness goals because I think it's a very visceral example of putting these ideas into practice. But for me, I don't really set goals like I need to be able to lift this amount of weight, you know, or hit this PR by this date. I did that early on when I started lifting, but after a while I kind of shifted to just, I just need to make sure I train on the days I'm supposed to train. That's the one action. And as a result, I don't get too distracted by the goal. Like that big goal of hitting certain numbers. But because I'm consistently doing the thing, those results just naturally happen.

B

Absolutely. That's a classic example of one action goal. Focus on what you do, not what you're trying to get.

A

Okay. Another part of the system's principle is you have this tool called repetition with variation. What does that look like?

B

So if you have a repetitive work, if everything you do is like, you know, your work's similar to what you did yesterday. So sometimes when you do that, you feel like again, you feel like Sisyphus, like the worst version of Sisyphus, right? You push the rock. Every day you're repeating yourself. But what end up happening is your progress would stall, and sometimes your progress both in term of result, but also you're learning because your mind is so used to it, you go into autopilot and there's no longer fun, and then you're no longer be able to handle variations. What if things change, right? What if your environment change? What if your company change? What if things change? And sometimes people are. When they are so into this one thing, this system that they keep doing, they cannot handle change. What I tell people is you actually should build change into your daily routine, daily work. And you repeat, but has variation. That's what I call repetition with variation. So the thing is, what if every day you do the same work, but you actually manufacture a different environment? What if you play a different role every day when you do this? So now not only you're doing the work, you have variation in the work, you're having more fun in the work, but also you train your mind to be more adaptable to different environments. You develop mental strength. And, you know, an example I used was the. The team who won the, you know, NBA championship two years ago was the Boston Celtics. And the Boston Celtics is an interesting story because they have been knocking on the door for years trying to win the championships. And they're. They're always at the precipice, right? They're always in the final four of every NBA season. But they could never get to the top until this new coach came in. His name is Joe Mazzulla. And. And what he does is he's this master of repetitions with variation. He will try to change his training, his practices in a different environment every day. So one day he would ask people to play without dribbling. So everyone would just pass the ball. You can only play without dribbling. So you run and you get open, you try to pass the ball to each other. And the next Day, he will try to play Mozart in the background. So no talking in practice. Everyone just stays silent and they just silently packing each other. They're like making art. The next day he was like, let's play football style. So people tackle each other on the basketball floor. So when you have this variation, what end up happening is you are able to build this mental resilience and being very adaptable to what happens every day. And the result of this practice is actually much more favorable, you know, to the players because they learn, they adapt, and they have more fun. So that's what I call repetition for variation.

A

I like that one. All right, so the final principle is why that's for yourself. So, like, what's this principle all about? What are you trying to get at with this principle? To make discipline easy. Discipline, yeah.

B

So yourself is, to me, is actually the most important thing, you know, are your goals. Are what you are doing an expression or a reflection of who you actually are. You know, we're all different, right? We'll have different affinities, we'll have different, you know, characters. We'll have different, you know, personalities. So sometimes when we have goals and you know, that whether those goals are given to us by our parents or by our boss or by, you know, by whoever, or those. Maybe those goals we learn ourselves, we give to ourselves, you know, and we think that's what we should do. Sometimes we started performing an act. That's not who we are. So I was the same. I was that person, you know, when I was in China. So I came to the United States as a teenager. But When I was 14, I met Bill Gates in China. You know, he actually went to China to promote Windows. I was mesmerized by his story and his entrepreneurial journey. I thought, okay, I know what I want to do with my life. I want to be the Chinese version of Bill Gates. I want to IPO my company. I want to make billions of dollars. That's what I want, wanted. And again, no one gave me that goal. I gave myself that goal. And I chased that goal for, I don't know, 20, over 20 years. And everything I did was toward that goal. You know, the thing is, what end up happening was the things I was doing. I mean, I like that goal. I didn't like the actions, that goal requirements. You know, even though I became pretty good at those actions. Built like three different companies. You know, none of them were Microsoft. You know, some of them were successful. But the thing is, during the pandemic and a lot of people started having Some mental health issues. And so did I. So to. To make myself feel better, I started writing again. And I. When I wrote, I just felt better. I felt good. I felt. I didn't want to stop. When I stopped writing and going back to my work, I felt like saying goodbye to a lover. And then I found out, man, deep down, I'm a writer. Why should I chase after this dream based on these activities? That. That's not me. You know, I could do them. I could build product, I could hire and fire, I could raise fund. But I feel much better when I was writing and expressing ideas. That's who I am. So I changed my goal, I changed my career. I'm like, I'm. Stop trying to be Bill Gates. I may just be the best writer I can be. Let me build a career out of who I am. So now, you know, I'm equally, if not more ambitious than I was before. I work more hard, but I feel every day I do, as this author, as a speaker, I'm having so much of a better time. I achieved true happiness. Not just success, but happiness, you know, knowing my relationship with the world. So going back to yourself, the best way to success, to. To succeed in whatever you do. And you are the best weapon. Like your personalities, your affinities. What do you like to do? What makes your soul sing? What makes you happy? Those are not just hobbies. Those are things that can become potent tools on your way to achievement. And that's why I say yourself is. You know, I mean, I leave that as last. But also, I think that's probably the most important thing.

C

Yeah.

A

So you got to figure out who you are so you can do who you are.

B

Yeah. Yeah, you do.

C

You.

A

Yeah, you do. You. Yeah. And I guess that requires just paying attention while you're in your work or in your life. Like, what is the thing that just makes me feel most alive, makes me feel the best, like you were describing. And then pay attention. Like, what are the things that I do that make me just feel awful? And then. Yeah, not do that. And then figure out a way to, you know, apply these other principles. Like maybe the game changer tool, maybe bring an artistry. It might mean you have to just change careers completely. I know for me, when I started my career, I thought I was going to be an attorney. And the reason I wanted to be attorney, because I thought, well, that sounds like a good career. It pays well and. And it's respectable, it's prestigious. And I enjoyed law school. But then I got my first internship at a Big law firm. And it's when I got my first case of heartburn. I was working at this law firm, and I was like, this is probably not good for me if I'm already having heartburn, and I don't even have a full caseload yet. So I didn't. I didn't become a lawyer. I'm doing this instead because this is the thing that I enjoy doing.

B

Yeah, Brett, you're the quintessential example of easy discipline. You found this thing that you didn't know before this, you know, writing this, podcasting, and then you build a whole career out of this thing you make. And this is who you are. This is actually, you know, like. Like, way better expression of who you are than being a lawyer. And I'm sure you'll be a good lawyer, but you're an amazing podcaster because you love this thing. You lean into it. You can make art with these conversations, and then you build systems, and this is who you are.

A

Are there any tools for this yourself principle that you like that can help people become the best version of that self?

B

Yeah, absolutely. So one of the best way to be who you are is to move, you know? So I call this the movers versus shakers. Shakers are the people who try to be like, you know, hard discipline their way to success. They shake themselves, right? It's like, man, what can you be more successful? What can you do better? So you start just shaking your own shoulders, right? It's like shaking some other people's shoulder, try to wake them up. You do it to yourself, be better, you know, work harder. And what end up happening is you start doing hard discipline. You started losing confidence. You start hating yourself. And a mover, which was, how do I move to a better environment so I can be better? Like, I can let myself out more. How can I find an environment where I can have a better chance of being myself? So I use this classic example. There's a story, ancient China. So there's this woman, she's widowed. She has her little boy. And so she moved to a village, and, you know, she want her son to be a scholar. In ancient China, being a scholar is held in high esteem. So in that village, there is like a funeral happening every day, and people are crying, and there's funerals. And the little boy, he will start mimicking those crying. He was mimicking those ceremonies and stuff. And then his mother is like, I can't raise him in this environment. Let me move. So they moved to a big city, and then the big city the little kid started mimicking markets like merchants and shouting and negotiating. And then his mom is like, nope, let's move. She moved him next to like a famous academy, like a school. It's like a school housing. So she moved him there. And then he started mimicking those scholars. And he started doing the writing and speaking and bowing. And then he became one of the most famous philosophers in Chinese history. And that story of moves called three moves of Meng's mother. So this guy, his name is Mencius, famous scholar, famous philosopher, but his mother is literally more famous than him. Because this move, instead of her shaking her son to become successful, to overcome the environment, what she did was to move to an environment where he would naturally succeed. Now, you don't have to do this yourself. You don't have to move. I mean, it's fine if you move, right? Move to. I mean, there's a reason people in technology tend to go to Silicon Valley. People in finance tend to go to New York. All right? So there's this natural centers where if you move to there, you are more naturally to achieve your goals. But you can actually shape your everyday environment so you can be a better self. So I do every day, you know, to be better rider. I don't ride at home. I don't like the environment. So what I do is I drive 45 minutes every day to this place, to this beautiful beach in here in Northern California called Half Moon Bay. I would drive there and park my car on the beach. And just over a cliff, I would just like I was riding my car. I don't bring my phone because I'm not there to fight, you know, the temptation of getting online doom scrolling, you know, I would do that all day if I could. But I leave my phone at home. I don't have Internet. So I go there, face the beach, face this great environment. And without Internet, I ride every day on my computer for hours. This is an example where I move to an environment where I can be the best self. Yeah, so that's the tactic I use.

A

I like that tactic. I've used that too in my own life. Well, Jeong, this has been a great conversation. Where can people go to learn more about the book and your work?

B

Yeah, so they can subscribe to my substack. But also my book comes out in July. So if you know someone in your life who you feel like they have high as low hands disease. They have big goals, but they're not that disciplined. Buy this book for them. I mean, they're going to thank you.

A

I love it. Well, Jia Zhong, thanks for having it's been a pleasure.

B

Thank you for having me, Brett.

A

My essay was Jia Zheng. He's the author of the book Easy Discipline. It's available on Amazon.com and bookstores everywhere. You can find more information about his work at his website xiajung.com also check out his show notes at Aom is Easy where you find links to resour. We delve deeper into this topic. Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM podcast. If you haven't done so already, I'd appreciate it if you take one minute to give us review on the podcast player that you used to listen to the show. And if you've done that already, thank you. Please consider sharing the show with a friend or family member who you think with something out of it. As always, thank you for the continued support. Until next time's Brett McKay reminding time. Listen, a one podcast would put what you've heard into action.

C

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