Bruce Feldman

Foreign.

Ralph Russo

Hello and welcome to the Audible, presented by Trader Joe's. I'm Ralph Russo from the Athletic, joined today by both of my colleagues. Yes, we are all on the show today, but we're not all on all of the show today. Bruce Feldman is here, he's on the road. Stuart Mandel is here. He, he's in his home office. Guys, it's so good to have all of us here. We on the show today. We are going to get to some Big 12 talk. It is Big 12 media days this week. Media days are starting. Oh my God. That means the off season is basically over and I'm not really ready for that. So we're going to talk about the Big 12 five years after Texas and Oklahoma left and where the state of it is now. And some interesting things going into media days. We are going to talk to our colleague David, David Ubin, who wrote this really interesting story about a former Texas football player who is a 30 year old junior college coach. Yes, David Ubun will explain later in the show. But first, before we get into the football of it all, we were going to talk about some football, some other football. The World cup has been awesome. I'm not a soccer fan, but I really enjoyed it. Personally, I just enjoy sporting events at odd times of the day. I love the Olympics and all kinds of stuff, but it wouldn't be, it just wouldn't be a major sporting event without controversy, without scandal. So we are recording this before the game, but the big question heading into the game is whether Flo Baligun will or will not play. The latest news is he will play. But you know, he got a red card in the last game, then the red card was rescinded. Then the suspension of the suspension. It feels all, I don't know, it feels all very familiar stuff.

Stuart Mandel

Oh, the college football parallels to this story have been tremendous. The conspiracy theories, the circling that, you know, now, now America becomes the bad guys. But like, no, no, no. Like we don't care. We'll be there. We'll be the Texas Tech of this sport. Right? We don't care. Now I say that as somebody who just like you said, Ralph, like, I mean, marginal soccer fan. I love soccer. It's a great sport. It's just not on my mind all the time. Uh, I watch the men's and women's World Cups and I get pretty into them, to be honest. So when the news came out Sunday morning that he's gonna play, I was elated. Like, I'm sure most people in the US Were I get that the rest of the world was the opposite of that. And I. It's just been. This is about. We're recording this about 24 hours after the initial news broke. I listened to Men in Blazers. I listened to the Athletic FC podcast. I've consumed the tweets, bring all the hate. Love it. But I'm not. I don't cover soccer. If I covered soccer professionally, I would look at it from much more of the perspective that we do when the Michigan science stealing thing happened or the Texas Tech, like, what does this effect on the sport at large? I don't care what the effect on the sport at large is. He gets to play. I hope by the time you listen to this, he scored three goals and they win. So, yeah. I mean, is this what it's like to be a college football fan of a team that's, you know, come under fire and you're like, hey, as long as we get the trophy, you know, if you tell me the president United states bribed them $50 million, okay, at least he got to play.

Bruce Feldman

I think a lot of this is all very nuanced because, look, the three of us, none of us are real soccer fans, right? We're not watching on Saturday morning. We're, you know, I think we're all very loosely connected to the rules, right? I think the only things I know of the rules are a little bit when I'm watching. You know, my kid played club soccer for a couple years. The night before we're taping this, there was something that did feel a little like in the realm of the targeting interpretation, which was in what was a phenomenal game to watch with Mexico and England and the energy in that coming out of that building. But there was one. There was a.

Ralph Russo

Also very college football. By the way, the atmosphere of that game last night was very college football.

Bruce Feldman

I know. I got asked on. On the. On the Jocks Roundtable show, is there any college football game you would be able to compare that atmosphere to? And I thought about it for a second. I was like, you know, it's actually a game that was in their backyard. It was when Cam Newton went to play Alabama, and they're playing Take the Money and Run, and it's just like it felt like a circus on top of the game. But what I was getting at in the Mexico. In the Mexico England game, where there's a red card because the player had his studs up basically as cleats up when it's risk of injury. And it's one of those things where you'd look at and go, okay, that guy really didn't intend to do that. But, like, you get with targeting, it's like, okay, that's how the intent of the rule is for safety. Even if it's like, how did he really know it wasn't really trying to hurt him or whatnot? You get stuff like that. When I saw the Baligan replay, I was like that. You know, that seemed super questionable to begin with. And then I think we all landed on, well, it shouldn't have happened. And I think the. Probably the thing to go forward with is because we've gotten so comfortable and so used to replay. And in this case, like, var, where you can see, you know, there was a game a week or two ago where, you know, it was like, literally, the guy was offsides by, like, his toe. You know, you could see it in that. And I think it's just a different world we live in now because of technology and because what we can see. And I feel like, you know, add to the fact of FIFA for generations has felt like it was like this corrupt organization to begin with, that was already kind of dubious. It all creates this perfect storm for this.

Ralph Russo

So a couple of things. I think we are unhealthily obsessed with officiating in this country. Maybe in all of sports, all sports fandom has become unhealthily. I think it takes away from our enjoyment of the game.

Bruce Feldman

Do you think it's worth. In our society more than in other parts of the world?

Ralph Russo

No. And that's why that was a misstatement by me, because I don't know for. And my guess is they're probably pretty obsessed with it too, right? Like, because if you see the intensity and passion of soccer fans and the fact that half a soccer game is soccer players arguing with officials on the field, like, they're probably a little unhealthily obsessed with officiating too. But I do think, like on this, to a certain. To a semi serious note, I do think we are getting an unhealthy obsession and it's taking away from my enjoyment of the sport. So of sports in general.

Stuart Mandel

To answer your question about whether I'll tell you exactly, because I went to a soccer match when we were in Switzerland last year. It was a junior game, like these kids, I think were. I don't know if they're high school age or college age. France versus France versus Argentina. First of all, it was billed as, like, international friendship Day. Like, the. The players came onto the field, each with a kid next to them, and Everybody shakes. We're going to be friends, right? Then the game starts, and it's completely violent, and there's. People are taking each other out. And people got so mad at the officials as the game went on that I started to worry for their safety. Like, people were that mad. Right? But I think another big difference is listening to one of those podcasts, the host said something like this, you know, Americans are justifying this because the call was wrong in the first place. That's not what football is about. Right. Like, there was very much an attitude of these are the rules. Rule 10, point something, point something. These are the rule. They're all like, even if I disagreed with the call originally, once it was made, like, these are the rules, and you don't stray from the rules. And here in the U.S. no, what we do is we get lawyers, right? Don't like that eligibility decision. Don't like your election results. Don't like, we'll sue. Right. And that's pretty much like, we don't think. It doesn't matter what the rules are. We will find a way to get them suspended or lifted or overturned.

Ralph Russo

So I'm. I. I was kind of going there, so I'm glad you went there, Stu, because I feel like that is a little bit of the yin and yang of this. It's. Is it. The. The initial call was bad, so anything that undo, undoes that is ultimately just. Or you have to have a just process to get to undoing the bad.

Stuart Mandel

I don't care about the process, but I could get why Belgium would care about the process in this case.

Bruce Feldman

Well, Stu, correct yourself. In this case. In this case, you don't care about the process. Normally you do care about the process, correct? Correct.

Stuart Mandel

Well, in college football, I do, you know, because it's. I care about the sanctity of college football.

Bruce Feldman

In this case, you're not an honest broker, right?

Stuart Mandel

No, I'm totally in the bag for one of the teams in this.

Ralph Russo

And the other thing, too, it goes back to what you were saying, Bruce. Like, I wasn't like. Like, I. I believe it was a bad call because a lot of people on my Twitter timeline told me it was a bad call. But my d. My mind did go reflexively to targeting, where it's not intent, and. But sometimes you have that area of, like, what's a guy supposed to do? He's just going for the ball. And that was sort of what. What happened with Baligun. What's a guy supposed to do? He's just going like, it's Two guys just going for the ball. So. But I don't really, like. I don't know. Like, you listened to more of the podcast and the. And consumed a little more of the media, Stu. Like, did they think it was a bad call? Is it universally accepted that it was a bad call?

Stuart Mandel

I think it's almost universally accepted it was a bad call in the country or not. The difference is the feeling of, well, once, like, one guy said, get it, I get it. If it was a bad call, overturn the call. But if the call stands and the rule specifically states he has to sit up, then you have to stick by that rule, by the way. And again, I didn't know this. They did the same exact thing for Ronaldo. He was supposed to miss the first game of the World Cup.

Bruce Feldman

No, I think it might have been two games. I think it was two games.

Ralph Russo

Yeah.

Bruce Feldman

Two games, too.

Stuart Mandel

So it's not unprecedented. Look, it just seems FIFA is the most corrupt organization. Not to go on a whole tangent here.

Bruce Feldman

Right.

Stuart Mandel

And for far worse things than overturning a red card. So it's hard to be like, how dare FIFA do this when they openly accept bribes and human rights violations and all that good stuff.

Ralph Russo

Yeah. I don't love going down that road, because I do kind of. You get kind of back yourself into, if everybody's corrupt, then I can be corrupt, too. Like. But again, because I don't know if that's a good thing to be. Well, because I don't have a lot

Stuart Mandel

of investment in this.

Ralph Russo

Yeah.

Stuart Mandel

And honestly joke around about it.

Ralph Russo

Honestly, I don't necessarily. Like, Like, I. I hope that by the time you listen to this, the United States has won. I would also say, Bruce, like, I'm not gonna lose a whole lot of sleep tonight if they don't. Like, I am more invested in, like, the Mets beating the Braves. Like, it's just I. That just mind the nature of my fandom. So, anyway, I don't know, Bruce. Again, like I said, you have a little more soccer background than me, so you seem to have a little more understanding of the game. But, I mean, I know you've enjoyed this World Cup. Are you disappointed by this all? Is this making it less enjoyable for you?

Bruce Feldman

I've loved this World cup in the last couple of weeks more than I thought I would. It's been. We're in this time of year where I think Stu and I are on the same side of this, unlike you, Ralph, where we're not. You know, we don't watch much baseball anymore. I'll Watch it occasionally, but it's not like I'm rooting for a team or anything. So right now we're in the kind of the doldrums of the summer, right? And to have three games on, or what has been three games on during the day has been awesome. The one thing that, like, you know, when it gets to be political and it starts to feel that way, it starts to get kind of this gross quality because it just, no matter what side of things you tend to be on, it just gets to be exhausting. And I don't know if it was bound to happen in some way, shape or form. It's just the way it happened this way. I think, you know, just as a fan of sports, I think it's been pretty awesome for us as a society or as sports fans to see the stars of the sport have excelled in such a way where, you know, if you're anybody who's kind of pays a little bit of attention to the sport. You wanted to see Erling Haaland just go off last year, his last time, his country wasn't even make the World cup. And you wanted to see, you know, Messi's almost our age and he's been phenomenal. And I think, you know, we saw Harry Kane, we obviously saw, you know, Bellingham look great the other night. It's just been so good. You just don't want it to feel like it's going to get a little bit sour. Ralph. And I think, you know, as you know, I'm fascinated to see what's going to happen tonight. But, you know, I don't, I don't know. One of the things I, I was reading on this morning a little bit about this was there was a lot of people, I think they asked the, the coach of Norway after their, after their win over Brazil, and he kind of spoke out against the decision that was made to reverse it and why it was bad for the sport. I don't necessarily think, you know, somehow, if the US goes on to make it to the final or even somehow wins the World Cup, I don't think anyone here is going to feel like it's tainted. I mean, globally, maybe a different story, but I feel like so much of our society is about us, and I feel like what happens to the sport and what happens to soccer after that could be a profound impact. But that remains to be seen.

Ralph Russo

Okay, one. Now, that was our one soccer segment of the year, folks. I hope you give us a little leeway there. It's our one soccer segment of the year. A little bit of college football news There wasn't a ton of college football news the last few days, which is kind of good as we try to relax and enjoy our three day weekends. One little bit of news. Taron Dickens, Western Carolina transfer. Landed at UNC for about a minute. Didn't think things didn't really work out there for him. Re entered the transfer portal, landed at Northern Illinois, which is an interesting mix there. Bruise little guy, he's only about six feet tall. Threw for about a zillion yards in like nine starts last year for Western Carolina. Like this could be a pretty interesting fit for Northern Illinois as it enters its first year of the Mountain West. You missed that game by the way last week, Bruce. Stu had a real hard time getting all the Mountain west schools, but yeah, Taryn Dickens, give us a little scouting report. Dude.

Bruce Feldman

Yeah, he's not six feet tall. He's probably closer to five nine, but

Ralph Russo

okay, he was listed at six feet.

Bruce Feldman

Yeah, Miami kid, very dynamic. Did not turn it over last year. Just tore it up, you know, at the FCS level. I don't think he was going to be able to play admissions wise at North Carolina, but he's done the coursework that he should be ready to go for niu. What's interesting is Tony Peterson, he was the offensive coordinator at Illinois State. They almost won the national title at FCS last year with a Tommy Rittenhouse was like a 510 quarterback, so he's had success with short, shorter quarterbacks. This guy might have been one of those guys. We should have considered drafting in our quarterback draft a while ago. Now he's getting there late, but he

Ralph Russo

didn't have a team at the time.

Bruce Feldman

I know, I know. He's a fun player. My guess is they're going to be renting him for a season and if he does as does well and looks kind of like the guy he did it at Western Carolina, then he may get to a bigger school a year from now or maybe whatever it is six months from now. But he'll be a fun one to keep an eye on with Northern Illinois.

Ralph Russo

Okay, let's take a little break and then we're gonna come back and talk Big 12 because Big 12 media days start this week.

Bruce Feldman

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Ralph Russo

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Bruce Feldman

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Ralph Russo

and we're back. So let's talk Big 12. Bruce is in Dallas, where the Big 12 will be holding its media days. And he will get to hang around with our buddy David Ubben, who we will talk to a little later in the show about a story I think you get Vanini too, right? Gosh, you'll probably see Ari Wasserman. Big week for you guys.

Bruce Feldman

I've already seen Ari Wasserman. I've already seen him. I've already been to the estate. I helped him. I don't know if it's called babysitting when they're your child, but. So, yeah, it's been interesting seeing Ari in his habitat.

Ralph Russo

I can already tell Bruce Stu's a little jealous she got to hang around with Ari. Well, your former colleague at the Athletic.

Stuart Mandel

We're going to Vegas later this week for our off site for our athletic off site. And I think it might be the first time I've been there anytime recently without Ari. I don't know. I'm going to be lost. Well, I'm gonna probably actually win money. Cause he won't be there to, to cause me to lose all kinds of money. But, yeah, I'm gonna miss him.

Ralph Russo

Oh, I didn't realize you were a gambler, Stu. Like, you will play the tables. I am not. Like, I, I offered up my spot to Ari. I, I was like, I, I, I don't particularly love going to Vegas, so I, I. Now, of course, our bosses vetoed that, but I had told Ari, like, hey, you should come to the off site.

Stuart Mandel

I mean, I'm not a fan of going to Vegas when it's gonna be 116 degrees or is, but I do like blackjack. I will definitely play some blackjack while I'm there.

Ralph Russo

All right, so, but more importantly, Big 12 media days, the first of all the media days for the conferences this week. So we, we kind of start feeling like you kind of start really feeling football in your bones. And, you know, Stu, you brought it up in our group chat. Like, you. It's been five years now. Now it's only three years since Texas and OU moved out of the Big 12, but it's been five years since the bombshell went off at SEC media days that Texas and OU were going to leave the Big 12 for the SEC. And I don't know, I guess I have some thoughts about what we were promised of the Big 12 and what we got, but in some ways, it's just remarkable that it's still here, Stu.

Stuart Mandel

Yeah. And some Big 12 fans have never let me forget that. I wrote a story within a week maybe of the Texas Oklahoma defection, basically saying it was, I mean, it, it, the, the conference didn't die, obviously, but there was a lot of thought that it would. And at the moment, right, all of those schools, tcu, Baylor, whoever was left, they were all trying to get invited to another conference. And so I showed the TV ratings data for these schools and, like, why none of those schools are going to be coveted by another conference. They just, they don't do ratings. Right. While they did cobble it together, they did stick around. They did, they did. Brought in new schools, obviously ended up winning a, you know, last man standing with the PAC 12. And so that's the good news. You have a conference, you have access to the playoff. The bad news is nobody watches their games. And, you know, part of that is that the Big Ten and the SEC expanded, got bigger, and just dominate Saturdays. You know, every ABC window now is an SEC game, and Big Ten has three network games. Back to Back to back, really. The only one that turned into must see TV for a while there was Colorado. And even that's obviously fading. But I think it's unfortunate that nobody watches the games because it's a very entertaining conference and a better. I think. I know. I'll see if you guys agree. I think it's a better conference than the acc. I know they get grouped together. I do think it's a better conference than the acc. But the ACC had a team almost win the national championship last year, and so you get credit for that. Whereas the Big 12 champ got shut out in their one playoff game.

Bruce Feldman

How much of this? You know, Stu, I remember it was, you know, some of the time you're talking about where it was last man standing with the Pac 12. And it felt like there were two outside the box commissioner hires that got made by the conferences. One, basically from Ralph's backyard, turned out to be a terrific hire. The other one, George Kleavkov, turned out to be a disastrous hire. And I don't think that's hyperbole to say it just because of the way that played out. You know, looking at the, at the Big 12. And I get it, we look at everything through the football Lens. I mean, Big 12 was actually fantastic when it comes to like college basket, men's college basketball. Right. So. And there's other parts of this beyond that. I do think that it has been able to kind of incubate. Obviously Texas Tech has benefited because they have a, you know, billionaire booster who's, you know, gladly throwing his money around to elevate it. But I always thought that what was going to have to happen for the Big 12. And we talked, Stu and I talked about this. When Brett, your mark was on this podcast a few years ago was that he, he openly admitted he needed somebody to step up. And clearly Texas Tech has done that. We feel like though, that BYU maybe has done that too, to some degree. And so maybe to go forward a little, how it's different. You know, like a couple of years ago, Utah fell off the map after pretty sustained success. And it felt like it was a little bit of a one off. And obviously Oklahoma State, which had been consistent, also just kind of been imploded at the end of Mike Gundy's run or towards the end of it. I mean, do you guys feel like right now it is trending in, in that direction where it is, it's not just Texas Tech or are we in a, you know, at an inflection point here where, you know, case data had been consistently good, but now you have Colin Klein. Does that mean he can elevate it or is it going to take a step back? Is Eric Morris the answer to. To get Oklahoma State going now that, you know, like, it's an interesting time in the confere, I feel like, because you also have no more Kyle Whittingham. You have Morgan Scally getting elevated. I mean, so does this pro, does this conference feel like it is. It is ready to take a big step forward, or is it Texas Tech and everybody else and they're all pointing their slings and arrows in Lubbock?

David Ubben

Yeah,

Ralph Russo

listen, it kind of comes down to. To a certain degree. Well, it always comes down to money, right? Texas Tech has a whole lot more money to spend and is spending a whole lot more money than these other schools. So that. That has created a separation. It's funny because that was supposed to be the thing that created the parody, right. That created the intrigue in the conference to a certain degree. I think the other thing we kind of look at is, you know, when you say the ACC, the Big 12 is better than the ACC, one of the things that sort of binds the Big 12 and I think makes it less unstable than the ACC is all those schools are kind of the same, but they are all in on football.

David Ubben

Right.

Ralph Russo

And I think you question some of that with some of the ACC schools, like how in is Boston College, how in is Syracuse, how in is Georgia Tech? And that's not the case with the Big 12 schools, but they just can't be as in as, you know, a Big Ten school because they don't have as much money. And Texas Tech managed to goose itself and get away. So it's interesting, like it was billed as maybe the deepest conference in the country, maybe conference with the most parody, but within a few years, like, I look at the bottom of that league and think, yeah, that's not, that's not that deep. There are definitely some, some teams at the bottom there that people are going to get fat, are going to fatten up on. Now that might change from year to year a little bit. And we didn't expect Oklahoma State to be in that mix too. But it's just interesting to me that within a couple of years we moved away from Big 12 parody. That's what they're selling. Our games are super exciting every week to. Yeah, maybe it's actually not that anymore.

Stuart Mandel

Well, yeah, that's an interesting way to look at it. By the way, as you were saying that about the acc, I'm Thinking, well, a lot of those schools care more about basketball. And then I realized, but the Big 12 is a much better basketball conference right now.

Ralph Russo

Yeah.

Stuart Mandel

And may always be. I don't know. But like, I think it's safe to say that almost all of those schools, Kansas notwithstanding, prioritize football. There's always going to be bad teams in a given year. Right. Last year, Colorado was terrible. Oklahoma State was terrible. Probably in a way that none of the teams the year before were. But anyway. But I think the difference is it's a deeper list of schools that can win the conference. Arizona State being the example two years ago. And it's not. There's not that much permanent debt. Not permanent, but like long term dead weight.

Bruce Feldman

Right.

Stuart Mandel

Like Oklahoma.

Ralph Russo

Yeah, I know what you're saying he

Stuart Mandel

talked about endlessly this offseason is like, here's a team that could rebound very quickly.

Ralph Russo

The Big 12. Yeah. Provides a lot of upward mobility.

David Ubben

Right.

Ralph Russo

Like you can go up. And now it looks like Texas Tech is going to create some immunity to that. Right. With its money. It's going to be the team that is always toward the top. And BYU seems to be settling itself as being the team always toward the top, whereas the rest of the conference. It's like I always kid around with Big 12 coaches. It's like it's, it's kicks and injuries. It's kicks, kicks and injuries.

David Ubben

Right.

Ralph Russo

You make a couple of kicks, you get, you stay healthy and all of a sudden that's the difference between five and seven and nine and three. Right. Because there are so many one score games. So I do think that's the case. I think Iowa State might be down this year, but Iowa State wasn't down.

Stuart Mandel

Right.

Ralph Russo

For a few years. So maybe that's the difference. Like these teams can go up and down as opposed to sort of our. Where they're like stuck at the bottom.

Bruce Feldman

Look what Baylor was. Look what Baylor has been in the last like six years under.

Ralph Russo

It is totally up and down.

Bruce Feldman

Chaotic program in the country.

Ralph Russo

Yeah. Yeah.

Stuart Mandel

By the way, I think we all think Houston could win the Big 12 this year. You know, TCU played in the national championship a few years ago. Utah's always very good. I have a lot of faith in Rich Rod to get West Virginia going. It's a long list of teams that if you said in the next two to three years this team's going to win the Big 12, I'd say, yeah, it makes sense. Stupid.

Ralph Russo

So I would push back on that. Can I just put back one second, Bruce? Again like, but can you, can you do that now? Like has Texas Tech made that, made that impossible?

Stuart Mandel

I have been carried away by one year of Texas Tech. Like if you told me it's going

Ralph Russo

to be two,

Stuart Mandel

you're guaranteeing Texas Tech's going to win the Big 12 this year.

Ralph Russo

I think it's going to be them or byu. I just think that they, they pulled away to the construction of their roster. Let me, I cut off Bruce. I didn't want to cut off.

Stuart Mandel

I'm not going there yet. I think they have, they have put enough money in to assure they will be in the mix. But like what if you know they're already down one quarterback? What if the next quarterback gets hurt three games into the season? I don't think they will have a defensive line. The last year defensive line was maybe the best in the whole country. Like the idea that that's, and that's why they won the Big 12.

Bruce Feldman

Like, but they spent a lot of money to go get Trey White from San Diego.

Stuart Mandel

Yeah, it doesn't. But teams that the teams spend the most money don't all remember the Florida State defense. How much money did we say Florida? You've reported it at the time, right. This is the 2024 season, Florida State's X million dollar defensive line and they stunk.

Bruce Feldman

I think what was different though with that Stu was they didn't backload in recruiting. Like by the way Texas Tech, it's, it's not just the transfers, it's the five star guys they were never getting before. Now they're bottom and they're getting them now. Whereas FSU kind of got caught in this really weird time of it was like the class that really didn't exist. They made some bad investments too. But I wanted to ask you because when we were talking about this just to swing back for a second to ACC versus the Big 12 and I think I know my answer and I think it's going to be where yours is in the big 12 of this group. Now there's some new coaches in there and first time head coaches certainly that you can't tell on. But you go back Lance Leipold for sure at some point you had Sonny Dykes in your top 20. You know we would go through some of these, some of these coaches. Kalani is now certainly established or Joey McGuire is the wild card in this because we're almost giving all the credit to Cody Campbell and not to the head coach. But I feel like with the Big 12, you know we had Chris Kleiman for All for certainly a long time that those. It was like, yeah, there's really good coaches in the Big 12, whereas the ACC, you got to give Dabo his due. And I think now Mario Cristobal is going to get it. But it's not like anyone's, you know, pointing back going, you know, I think people are on the fence on Dave Doran constantly. They're on the fence on. On Narduzzi. You know, it's just. It didn't feel like they would get the same respect that most of the Big 12 coaches did. I don't know if that's more of an optics thing or that's a real thing. I mean, you kind of see where I'm coming from, Stu. Right?

Stuart Mandel

Yeah. The Big 12, you know, coaches rankings that we do every year. There have been years where I was, I had a ton of Big 12.

Bruce Feldman

Matt Campbell, Matt Campbell was in there.

Stuart Mandel

Matt Campbell, Chris Kleiman, Mike Gundy up until the last two years. So what the Big 12 has had is a bunch of Whittingham, a bunch of coaches who overachieve relative to their roster. And that's always been a sign to me of good coaching is like if you're winning 10 games at a school that gets number 42 recruiting classes. Ralph's got us got a look on his face of skepticism is.

Ralph Russo

But is that directly because of the Big 12 didn't have. Well though for a while it did.

Bruce Feldman

It had Oklahoma and Texas. Oklahoma and Texas.

Ralph Russo

Well, so maybe that's it. So maybe so I'll go back. So I'll readjust my point.

Stuart Mandel

Yeah. Think about how many times Matt Campbell or Chris Kleiman or somebody beat one of Texas or Oklahoma, which is the

Ralph Russo

reason why those schools leaving the Big 12 was such a big deal. And in the moment people were, you know, we're trying to get. It's aside from the TV ratings, obviously that's a problem too and how much value they bring to a media package. But the other problem was those schools set the standard. So when you beat those schools credibility. Right. When you beat Oklahoma in Texas, you had credibility. And I think that's what your mark was pointing out on why we need somebody to separate. Because now you need a team that can also be. You need a team that is the standard bearer at the top that when you beat that team, you get credibility. So I wonder if some of the reasons why we had all those discussions about the ACC and all those discussions about coaches and other coaches is good and we're giving all these coaches credit for the Big 12 was because they were able to beat some of these top tier teams whereas Clemson was just rolling right. And Florida State was just rolling. And very rarely did those ACC teams rise up and threaten the big dog. The other thing I would just. Very small thing, Stu. I think the difference now with the Big 12 and what has evolved over three years is you said you it feels like once in every four or five years almost any of these teams could rise up and win the conference. I would just correct it to. I think almost everybody in the conference has the ability to rise up and contend in the conference. So slight, slight change there.

Stuart Mandel

I would say most of them have a chance to win the conference. But you seem to be convinced that Texas Tech is the new Ohio State of the Big 12. And I'm like, can we at least see if they do it a second year before we.

Ralph Russo

I think they are trending in that direction. I literally think they are trending in the direction of.

Stuart Mandel

And you could be right. I'm. But like BYU also has Mr. Crumble Cookie. Like they're not.

Ralph Russo

So maybe it's. Maybe they're the Michigan. Maybe they turn out to be Michigan or Oregon.

Stuart Mandel

You know, I just think there's more that goes into it than just spending the most money. I really, I mean Indiana being a prime example of that. Coaching matters, injury, luck matters. Anybody can spend. And Brian Kelly bragged about how much money they spent on their roster last year and they stunk like it's. Everybody's spending money these days. Maybe not as much as Texas Tech, but everybody's out there trying to get the best possible portal and recruiting class with whatever they have.

Bruce Feldman

Hey Ralph, can I put you on the spot? I would like to put you on the spot since you kind of want

Ralph Russo

to make one last point and then we'll get on it.

Bruce Feldman

It's not a point. I'm just going to say what do you think has a better chance of happening? Texas Tech winning international title with CODY. With

Ralph Russo

Joey McGuire.

Bruce Feldman

I was going to call Joe Cody Campbell that Coach. With Joey McGuire as a head coach or Joey McGuire getting fired.

Ralph Russo

I think there's a better chance that they change. And I don't think Joey's a bad coach. I just think that the expectations have been so elevated there that if he can't deliver on these crazy high expectations, there is now a vehicle or there is now, there are now resources there to say, you know, Joe, great guy, Mr. Texas, but we need a national championship coach in here and we don't. So I think that the chances are much higher that Texas Tech ends up bringing in a different coach because it gets frustrated with not not winning a national championship, because winning a national championship is really hard. So yes, I think there's more of a chance that Joey McGuire ends up being tripped up by those expectations instead of meeting those expectations. All right, great discussion on the Big 12. We are going to head to a break. Coming up on the other side, Bruce and I talk to our we say goodbye to Stu. Bruce and I talk to our colleague David Ubin about a wild college football story from the 1990s.

Stuart Mandel

Yeah, real quick. Since I didn't get to be on the interview because it was like the middle of the night my time. One of the most fascinating stories I've ever read on the athletic. Kudos to David. Please stick around for that discussion.

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Bruce Feldman

all right, Ralph, we're pleased to be joined by our guest. David Ubun. Does a lot of great work, I gotta tell you. So as Ralph and Stu pointed out, I've been in Texas for what feels like a month and I'm at the star of the other day and this great. I thought it was a really fun 90s retrospective nostalgia package that our bosses came together with. But, you know, I really didn't know what was in it beyond some of the stuff I, you know, the stuff I worked on and some of the kind of boilerplate kind of stuff. And I'm looking at this and I see, I think it was Wednesday morning. The days are blurring together. But I was like, what is this story? Oven did? And then I start reading it and I get the most holy bleep moment because so Ralph and Stu and I are old. And if you're old, you might have heard about this story, what we're gonna get into. But about 15 years ago, or maybe a little more, when I was still at ESPN, we tried to get this story for like a 30 for 30. And that was the plan. And so, David, I mean, the story of ron Weaver, Ron McKelvey is a mind blowing story. I reached out to him, was able to get a number. He did not want to talk for the story. And without him, we really felt like we couldn't do the story. So to my surprise and delight, the athletic got that story and you were able to get him. So first, just tell us how you came across it. Were you aware of the player who wasn't who they thought he was, who was way older? How did that all come about for you?

David Ubben

So, no, I like lived in Texas for eight something years. You have covered Texas a good bit. I am slightly less old than you guys. So 1995, I was eight. Kind of starting to get into.

Bruce Feldman

You're a lot younger than us, starting

David Ubben

to get into college football, but certainly not aware of this. And then just nationally it was different. So I had not heard of this. I only first heard about this story in like November or December. And I was like, how does every college football fan not know about this? I kind of pulled our staff and nobody really recognized the name. Sam Khan, our techspert, didn't recognize the name. When I kind of told him the details, he's like, I kind of remember that a little bit. It has been lost to time. And that was one of the questions that I had for this story. And I think it's for two reasons. One, it's 1995, right before the Internet, where everything lives forever. And two, the fact that Texas was not penalized for playing a player who was 30 years old because they didn't know. And so when you look back at the records books, I think it'd be different if you had the 1995, the very last Southwest Conference title vacated, and Texas is, you know, officially 0 and 10 or 00, then people be like, well, what happened there? And it might be a little bit more renowned, but it's kind of been lost to time. All right, let's. So.

Ralph Russo

So please read the story on the Athletic. It's an incredible story. I got a little behind the scenes through a group text of the progress, and there were points when it seemed like Ubin had 12,000 words that he was gonna end up submitting, which we allow some room here to grow at the Athletic, but that's a little much. So I want to get a little bit into the process here of when, when, like, when did you reach out to him?

David Ubben

And like.

Ralph Russo

Because once you get him, then, you know you have the story.

David Ubben

Yeah.

Ralph Russo

Quickly within the process, do you know, like, okay, I got him, let's see. And by the way, he's like, happy to talk.

David Ubben

Yeah. So I, I don't really know why I did it this way, but I felt like, like Bruce did and that we, we had to have him to have the story. I guess in theory maybe you could do it without him, but it felt integral that we have him. So he was actually my very first call on this story. Got a phone number listed for him, using some journalism superpowers, called him and he was like, hey, I'm driving right now, but call me tomorrow. So I called him the next day. We talked for, I don't know, two hours or so, and then we had a couple, two or three follow up calls, you know, in the months that followed. This was probably in February, and then, you know, kind of put it on the back burner a little bit during spring practice. But then as we kind of formulated this kind of 90s blitz that we had started making, being a little bit more aggressive, making calls, and we got pretty much everybody that we wanted to, to talk for this. The only exceptions would be John Makavich and Ron's sort of infamous sister, Bonita Money, who was kind of running interference for him at the time and like, has her own sort of interesting backstory that maybe we'll read on the Athletic at some point,

Bruce Feldman

I gotta tell you. So I Vividly remember years ago. It's funny, David, in your story, you mentioned one of the, like, deans of the sid, Sports information director world. And for people who don't know, those are basically the PR contacts that we in the media kind of often go through is John Bianco, who has been at Texas for forever. And so it's funny you mentioned in the story at the. When this happened, he was 29 years old. John is.

David Ubben

Yeah, quick aside on that, actually, it's interesting that he. He was the case because I'm sure you guys remember the. The late Bill Little. He had had some health issues at this bowl game. And so that's why in the story, John is 29, acting SID. There's not a lot of under 30 SIDS at major programs. That's just not something that there is, just because you kind of have to work your way up. And so it's interesting that, like, John was, like, not even technically in the job, but was doing the job and is kind of like playing babysitter, caretaker. Doesn't really know what he's doing. You know, he's had 30 years of. You know, he's got 30 less years of experience then than he does now and sort of has this insane scandal dumped on his lap.

Bruce Feldman

Yeah, what I was getting into was he dropped me off at my car. I was doing something working on a story at UT a long time ago, and I'm at my car in this parking lot, and I don't know how we got on the subject of Ron Weaver. And he started going through this story. And we were outside for, like, 45 minutes. And the thing I remembered most about it was. And again, I wasn't thinking it through the prison because when he told me this story, he wasn't. I don't wanna say he's like 90 now, but he wasn't. You know, he was probably early 40s or maybe. Yeah, around there. But he was saying, I called Coach Makovic and I was like, coach, I got. We gotta talk. And he goes, jon, trust me. I've been through everything. It can wait. We can talk. Any. Anything can wait until the morning. He was like, this. This can't. This cannot. You're not gonna believe it. And he was very dismissive of him. And as I recall, of, you know, had kind of a little bit of an arrogant, kind of a pompous quality to him. And in the course of this, it was just like, I've seen everything. No, you. No, coach, you actually haven't. And when you get into this, like, There's a really interesting. And as you reference, there's a lot of part about like the memories can be hazy because it's 30 years ago of these local reporters. And seeing it through their perspective is like they got this. I don't know what kind of scoop this is. It's a big scoop because it's at Texas. Now. He wasn't Quentin Jammer, he was a backup player. But still just the aspect of this, if like I wanted to ask you guys both is there because, you know, as you'll say, you know, again, what Ralph says, you gotta read the story. But just the fact that he knew to say, hey, I can get, you know, can I get this guy's Social Security number or whatever who is going to prison? Like there's something really fascinating about somebody who thinks like that, who would be like, okay, I'm going to be able to pull this off. Like the caper aspect of it is mind blowing to me.

David Ubben

It's, it's the audacity for me because I think the reason why this story resonates is every person has thought at one time or another, if I only knew now or knew then what I know now, everybody's thought that not everybody is audacious enough to commit a federal crime, to go down that road and actually live out that exercise. But I will say one of the follow up calls that I had with Ron, no, he asked me, he's like, do you think I'm like, am I like the villain in this story? And I was like, I don't think anybody's gonna read this necessarily think that you're a bad guy. Ron, certainly you, you deceived people and you misled people, but other than like taking a scholarship that some other kid might have had, it's a largely victimless crime. And I think the fact that your motivations were so pure in that I didn't hear a single whisper from anybody that I talked to and I Talked to like 20 something people that this was motivated by anything other than just like, I just want to play football. And like you know, there he, he lied to the reporter about like working on a book and Texas was terrified about that and there were some gambling fears and you don't know how this is going to play out. But I think the fact that Texas got off, you know, pretty scot free because they didn't know and like his motivations were as pure as I guess they can get for committing a federal crime. Right.

Ralph Russo

So what I wanted to also, yeah, there's just so many Aspects here that I find myself kind of wanting to get into.

David Ubben

I.

Ralph Russo

The funny thing is, when you brought the story to the group chat, I didn't remember it. In fact, when you brought it up, I thought, that sounds like something that happened in the 70s, right. When it was really wild west and you couldn't. What came to mind is my old friend Rick Cleveland, who's a great sports writer in Mississippi, one of the all time greats. When I used to talk to him about old stories about the swac, and he would talk about how you'd show up five games into the season and would just be another player, like just a guy. Like, where'd they get that guy from? Because you just couldn't keep track of any and most. Because you just couldn't keep track of anything. And that's. So when. But. But when I read the story, it clicked. I was like, oh, no. I do remember this because I remember the AP covering it. I was working for the AP in New York on the desk at the time, Agate desk. But I do remember, like, little. And the thing is, it never was even in real time, like a big story. I was wondering if you looked back, if you did some research and found, like, material reporting from it. Because to me, it was reported on, but I don't think it ever really broke through the way it probably would have today. So what was your reporting in terms of, like, son of going back to see how it was covered?

Stuart Mandel

Yeah.

David Ubben

I mean, the Statesman had some reporting on it. There is a. A Washington Post story. Like, Ron has talked a couple times over the years. The Sports Illustrated kind of did the definitive piece at the time. Don Yeager. I don't know him. You guys are old, so you might know who he is or right now.

Bruce Feldman

Yeah. By the way, this is not the. The most infamous story Don Yeager has been attached to. Related to SI for sure. So I'll just leave it at that.

David Ubben

Okay. I don't know what you're referencing, so I'll keep it moving.

Bruce Feldman

Anyway, that's a Mike Price reference.

David Ubben

Oh, the Mike Price story. I didn't realize that was Don Yeager. All right, anyway, so he kind of did the definitive story at the time, but obviously there's still a lot of unanswered questions. And I think the biggest thing that I wanted to answer is, like, how did you, like, do all this? And, like, where did this even start? And now, you know, he can kind of do that. And so, yeah, I mean, reading some reporting around the time, I think there's, you Mentioned like the timeline is very hazy. Like the Statesman had like a graphic in the paper, I don't know, probably the day of the bowl game, kind of laying out what the timeline was for, who found out when and when people met. But then when you talk to people, it was like, I don't think that's actually accurate. And that's nothing to disparage their work. I think they were just going with what Texas told them, you know, or what sources at Texas told them. But people, you know, again, and there might be some hazy memories, but it is interesting. Like the Makovic reaction. I talked to three or four staffers from that staff and you know, his reaction was when he got told he wasn't, you know, sort of a freak out. You know, all they, all the coaches I talked to were like, yeah, he's pretty sort of an even keel guy. And he just said, talk to academics, talk to compliance. We'll talk in the morning. I gotta go to a dinner. And that was pretty much it.

Ralph Russo

Yeah. So what was. So I know again, there was a lot of reporting and definitely go and read the story again, just the headline. Just so people can very easily find it. The 30 year old who fooled Texas and played for the Longhorns under a fake name. It's the most simple, like non. What's the word I'm looking for? It's a pretty simple headline that sort of sums it up, not being provocative in that headline. That's just what happened. So give me one little piece of information that sort of made it didn't make it to the story. Give me something that was left on the cutting room floor. I think you and Vanini on the bunch formation talked a little bit about that because you had so much in the notebook. Give me one piece that didn't make that got left on the cutting room floor.

David Ubben

There was a handful. The Bonita money background stuff was interesting because I wanted to talk. He didn't really remember a lot about hunkering down with her in Los Angeles. He kind of went to her apartment and she flew home from the game. And also like she had some knowledge but she didn't really understand college football.

Ralph Russo

So she didn't realize that like you can't actually do this. Yeah, I don't, I don't know.

David Ubben

I mean, again, I didn't get. She agreed to talk to me twice and then just kind of ghosted me. And I was really hoping, but she's like, as far as I understand, like a pretty high up like weed magnate in, in California. So you Know, I don't know exactly what that looks like now. She got an interesting story of her own. But anyway, I think it's a true time capsule moment, Ralph, in that Mark Wangren, who. I didn't know him. I think I just can't. I think I got into the field, like, right. As. Right as he was leaving, but I didn't know him before we had spoke. But he talked about, you know, a true time capsule moment that they watched the OJ Verdict together, him and Ron.

Ralph Russo

Mark.

Bruce Feldman

David.

Stuart Mandel

Mark.

Bruce Feldman

Just for people I haven't read, Mark Wangren was like, the Texas beat writer in the mid.

David Ubben

Yeah, he was one of the Texas beat writers. Austin American Statesman. I don't know what the staff budget was in 1995. I'm sure it was hell. I mean, the Statesman has always had, like, two or three people that, like, their main job is covering the Longhorns. So I don't. He, like, he was one of them, but he was kind of on the front lines. But he had spent some time with Ron. This is a different time of reporting. But he was just going to the athletic dorm and, like, talking to people. And he was sitting in the community room when the O.J. verdict came down. And he's like, you know, I think of myself as pretty progressive, but I'm sitting here thinking, like, what just happened? And him and Ron. Ron talked about, like, policing in California and, like, the LA riots. And he was like. I thought of myself as pretty progressive. He's like. But I learned a lot talking to Ron. He's like. So when all this happened, my thought immediately went there, but there wasn't a lot of, like, memories of his time at Texas. Cause he just was kind of practicing and barely playing. And, like, besides that, and like, going over to. I think it was Steve Bernstein's house, or maybe it's Randy Rogers house. I forget which coach it was for Thanksgiving. There wasn't a lot of, like, you know, he was just like, people liked him. He kind of kept to himself. But he did help educate a reporter in the wake of the OJ Verdict. So there you go.

Bruce Feldman

All right, David, awesome job with the story, as you said. I think one of the key pieces of this story and how it played out was it happened basically. I don't wanna say, like, the end of the innocence before the Internet really took off. But the Internet really got traction in the mid-90s. And this story kind. It was right on the cusp of that. And obviously, it's just great job getting to sit down and talk to him and bringing it to life. And for most of our audience, at least the reading audience, maybe not on this podcast where we tend to be older, probably had never heard of it, never had any concept that this kind of thing had happened. Before we let you go, I do want to ask you one thing because I'm going to see you later today. You're traveling to come here to Texas for the Big 12 media days. What is the one thing beyond Texas Tech that you are most intrigued to dig into with the Big 12 this week here?

David Ubben

Beyond Texas Tech is tough, I think in general. I think people are sleeping on byu and I think just sort of, you think about the dichotomy of where they were at last year. They show up to media day and they just basically probably lost their quarterback. In Jake Rhett's laugh, everybody had kind of written them off. And it looks a lot different. You know, they're bringing back, they find Bear Bachmeyer who I think, you know, puts them in position to be a team that's to be reckoned with. And he grew up a lot last season. You keep LJ Smith, most importantly, you keep Kalani Sutaki. And now you're looking around and saying like, we got as good of a shot as anybody. And so I think that to me jumps out. But something interesting, I think the new coaches too. You know, Drew Meste Maker at Oklahoma State. A lot of Oklahoma State, excuse me. Eric Morris is really important though. Yes, he is. But like you, there's a lot of, you know, Oklahoma State playoff buzz. Like you could jump on that bandwagon if you'd like or not like to go from an 18 game losing streak to like this team could contend for the Big 12 was interesting and I think, I'm pretty sure you know him, Bruce. I have not met Eric, so I'm excited to get a chance to sort of meet him and spend some time with him. And you know Colin Klein at, at, at Kansas State as well. You know, I know Colin pretty well, but covered him as a player back in the day. I've covered him as a coach and I think that's, he's in an interesting spot where a pretty peaceful transfer of power and he's kind of got like his two dads that he can kind of lean on and, and sort of ease into this job. And I don't, I don't think you see that maybe ever where you have a new young hotshot coach coming to his hometown and he has the two guys who preceded him like that are going to be there for him and help him like I don't. That might be unprecedented in the history of college football. So you know Johnny Majors, Phil Fulmer, it is not so.

Ralph Russo

David Ubin is our colleague at the Athletic. You can listen to him over at the Bunch Formation with Chris Vanini, a podcast I was a guest on last week. Definitely read the story of Ron McKelvey, Ron Weaver, the 30 year old who fooled Texas into playing college football. It is a banger. David, great job on writing the story, great job on reporting the story and thanks so much for joining us here and see you in a few days in Vegas.

David Ubben

Yeah, thanks guys. Looking forward to it.

Ralph Russo

That is the show for today. It's great to have everybody on the show. That was a lot of fun. We return on Wednesday. I think we might have everybody on on Wednesday though. Again, it might be some for some segments, some for another. We will definitely have a mailbag on Wednesday and send your mailbag questions to theaudiblepodmail.com Please, please send your questions. We want some new people chiming in because as much as we love our loyal listeners and our loyal emailers, we love to get some new voices and we'll see you later in the week.

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