Bruce Feldman

Foreign.

Stuart Mandel

Welcome to the Audible, presented by Trader Joe's. I'm Stuart Mandel, joined as always by Bruce Feldman. No Ralph Russo for this episode. He is on assignment. Really? Sometimes we use Bruce on assignment as like code for getting a colonoscopy or something or just sitting at the beach. But no, he's on assignment covering ACC media days and we are going to get to some ACC talk a little bit later in the show. And of course, second episode of the week means mailbag questions and we will get to those as well. See who gets that $16 Trader Joe's gift card. Also, Brian Kelly appeared on one of our colleagues podcasts. First real extensive interview in a while. So we want to get to that. Michigan remains in the news. We talked about it the other day. We're starting to get little bits and pieces and leaks from this investigation into the athletic department that they apparently aren't planning to publicize. So I guess it will just leak out instead. Bruce, you did some reporting on this Tuesday after a Wall Street Journal story came out. What's the latest?

Bruce Feldman

Yeah, sue. So our reporting followed up on a Wall Street Journal story that came out earlier in the day on Tuesday and it cited a handwritten Note from Michigan AD Ward Manual dated August 29, 2024. That was two days before Schronmore's first game. Quote, I told him I didn't remember if we had but that she that was Paige Shriver, his executive assistant, who he had the inappropriate relationship with, that she couldn't accompany him on trips. Manuel wrote a Michigan source briefed the investigations, confirmed that note's existence. So where we followed up with that, two program sources that we talked to and have talked to for a while about this basically have said that Troy and Moore's relationship with Shiver at the start of training camp in 2024, these sources came forth and basically filed HR complaints and about concerns about the relationship of the two of them working out together early in the morning in the Michigan weight room while some of the other football players were while some of the football players were around, it was something that a lot of people noticed and thought it's just a really bad it was kind of suspicious to folks there. So the idea that Ward Manuel would have had some sense of plausible deniability of not knowing that there was something way out of line going on between Sharon Moore and his executive assistant. I mean, that's dating back basically two seasons. It kind of gets into the how did he possibly not know what was going on and was there any oversight in a in a athletic program, especially in a football program that has been ripe with scandal. And we've talked a lot about the scandal less nature of Michigan athletics for a while, but this is just, you know, kind of the latest turn in what's. In what's at least part of this investigation still.

Stuart Mandel

Yeah, well, that letter was from before the 2024 season, but. Or that note, I should say. But, you know, this report also found that. I mean, they. They traced back to the very beginning of The Sharon Moore PA sh began in January of 2022. So this went on for almost four years. We'd always heard that it was an open secret. Now you're seeing just how much of an open secret it was. And so of course, the question becomes, how did Warren Manuel not take any action until you reach the absolute worst scenario? My guess is he would say something like, these were just rumors, you had said the other day that they did this sham investigation and had no hard proof. How can I fire guy off of rumors? Well, how can he.

Bruce Feldman

How could he fire him if she, Paige had initially denied it and Sherwin Moore initially denied it? I mean, the question then is how deep did you really look?

Stuart Mandel

How deep did you really look? But also there are actions short of, you know, you know, you can. You can put somebody on leave while you investigate something. You can suspend somebody. Like there's action short of firing. So the question is, did he truly not know or did he. Manual, did he exercise a lot of caution here? Or as is often the case when these kind of stories come out, he didn't want to fire his football coach, who he just hired, who was his choice, head coach of a major Big Ten school, that's a huge, huge impact decision. If you were to fire your coach in less than two seasons for something that at that time the public didn't know about. I assume a lot of this stuff gets addressed in the report, but we also. They have not hid the fact that they're gonna. They are not going to publicize this report. Apparently it was. There's no written report. It was given verbally to the board. As often happens when you don't want something to get out, to be foiaed, which is unfortunate. But if the Wall Street Journal already has these details, I gotta think more and more will come out. Word Manual continues to. And I also think this is an unusual thing, Bruce. You don't usually see somebody who's on the hot seat, if you will, going out of his way to give public interviews to say, no, that's not true. That's not happening. I'm not getting fired. As opposed to just like playing it down the middle. It seems like there's some sort of showdown going on now, some sort of staring contest of is he. He clearly wants his buyout. Is he gonna ride this out until the last moment possible to try to get Michigan to pay him to go away? Maybe Michigan wants him to settle for something less. I don't know. What are your, what are your thoughts?

Bruce Feldman

From what I heard, and I think I, you know, referenced this a little bit the other day, but the board in Michigan is done with him or does not want him anymore while some of the big money people, juice are still in his corner. I was told that a lot of the big, big donors are split on him, but some of the heavyweights, and I don't know if Stephen Ross, you know, one of their biggest heavyweights is still in his corner, but I know that for a long time he has been, as one person pointed out to me, this is a, you know, he's been a very successful fundraiser. He's really not around the Michigan football office very much. A lot of ads, you know, we talked about this a lot last year. Scott Woodward, the old AD at ls, was in the football office a ton from what I was told by people inside the program. Ward Manual hasn't been like that. But still, that doesn't mean he shouldn't know what was going on. So there's a bunch of lawsuits going on in addition to this. That, that further complicates it. And I think there's probably some leaky folks who are, you know, on the board because I think they're, they're uncomfortable with the direction this could be headed.

Stuart Mandel

Well, speaking of awkward, Bruce, Brian Kelly has resurfaced at his old stomping ground, Notre Dame. He made an appearance on the independent podcast, which is co hosted by our current colleague, longtime colleague Pete Sampson, who covers Notre Dame, and our former longtime colleague, Matt Fortuna. They did a really good interview with him often, you know, like a lot of these coaches who are out of it now, like, he can be a little. He seems much more relaxed and upbeat and humorous. But if you were wondering whether him going on a podcast, talking about how much he supports Notre Dame and Marcus Freeman would make Notre Dame fans get over their disdain for him, that was definitely not the case. I think the comment that got the most attention was, I think I was mischaracterized only in the sense that I didn't leave Notre Dame because they couldn't win. A national championship. Those words never came out of my mouth. What I said is, if I'm going to leave, I'm going to go to a place that can win a national championship. And that was perceived as being, oh, he doesn't think he can win one here. Kyle me among the many, many people who took some comments of his that spring, his first spring at lsu when all the reporters come through town as look at all these things we have here at LSU that we didn't have at our last place.

Bruce Feldman

Yeah, look, Brian Kelly has a political background from back when in his younger days. He's very bright, very intelligent and a lot of that has served him and in what has been a wildly successful coaching career for three decades plus. But when it comes to the political stuff and that kind of there feels like there's a little spin. That definitely felt like it. There felt like there was a lot of it. You know, as he was kind of circling the drain in Baton Rouge, a little bit about it was just a bad fit. I mean we've talked a lot about him there. I thought what was interesting was him repositioning himself or trying to with Notre Dame. And to his credit, he is the all time winningest coach in Notre Dame history. As I think, as Pete Sampson also noted, he's also the all time losing his coach. But still, I mean, he was a really successful coach. He left it better, much better than when he took it over. The thing that I had a friend of mine who's pretty connected to Notre Dame and you know, floated to me was, you know, if Marcus ever left to the nf, left for the NFL, which wouldn't be shocking, does Brian Kelly, would he think, hey, I might be able to get this job back? I mean it's crazy to think that, but it's also crazy.

Stuart Mandel

Comments section on, on Pete's story about it. No chance.

Bruce Feldman

The comments section though, Stu, you know this. They do not, they do not hire coaches. You know, they may help fire them, but they don't hire them. Right. So nobody thought Rich Rod. You want to see, go see what happened when Rich Rod left West Virginia, Bobby Petrino got back, you know, to Louisville. I'm not saying it's going to happen, but whenever we think there's no chance, I mean those two are stranger than Brian Kelly potentially getting back.

Stuart Mandel

It was 100%, maybe 99% anti Brian Kelly. And it's interesting because there's always bitter feelings when the coach leaves the school. I don't care where you are. Right. Nobody likes it when a Coach leaves the school you love for another job, you know, insinuating that basically the other job is better than your school. Right. Usually, as time goes on, though, that passes at least a little bit, especially if that coach was very successful. I re. I think the reason that's not happening here is, first of all, it wasn't that long ago, but, you know, the examples you gave, right? Rich Rod was brought in because the program was struggling. Hey, this guy figured it out. Maybe he can figure it out again. Petrino. I don't remember exactly what the state of it was before he got there, but definitely not what it was his first time.

Bruce Feldman

So some desperation kicks in.

Stuart Mandel

Yeah, desperation kicks in. What's hurt Brian Kelly's legacy to this point is that Marcus Freeman made them better. You know, he came in and showed, hey, you know, all those excuses Brian Kelly used to make or convincing us that we were close to being Alabama when we weren't. Marcus Freeman comes in and within a couple of years takes us to the national championship game. If Marcus Freeman were to leave on a high note, I don't think anybody would claim her to bring Brian Kelly back. I think it would be more if the next guy goes three and nine, you know, But I don't. You know, Brian Kelly. We talked about this. Like, I think there are other places he could surface at next year. You can tell he's on a bit of a goodwill tour right now to try to maybe repair his image a little bit. Notre Dame is not one of the ones on that list.

Bruce Feldman

If I asked you this right now, and I'll throw out some possibilities, these jobs are not open. They could be open. Obviously. Bill o' Brien had a woeful second season at Boston College. He has another awful season. Brian Kelly's a Boston guy. I don't know if that's. Brian Kelly's 65. I don't know if you replace a guy who feels older with a guy who feels much older, but that would be one I'm going to throw at Cincinnati. Scott Satterfield just had a pretty good season.

Stuart Mandel

Another place where Brian Kelly burned a lot of bridges.

Bruce Feldman

Yeah, if they went backwards. But also another case where Brian Kelly won really big. He got them in, you know, top five season. So Cincinnati. Another option. Michigan State, I feel like, is off the table just because they just hired Pat Fitzgerald. That was another one that seemed plausible. I don't know if there's any. I mean, to me, it's, you know, Boston College again. That job isn't open, and Cincinnati's not open. But those are jobs with kind of ties to him. Any other one that I didn't mention that you're like, maybe that would be it. Because again, I think Notre Dame would be a absolute long shot. But I'm just curious as to how he's positioning himself for this.

Stuart Mandel

Look, the guy was a very successful coach for more than three decades. Right. Going all the way back to Grand Valley. Somebody will hire him. I mean, I frankly think he has a better case to get a second chance, if you will, than Pat Fitzgerald did. I think part of the problem, though, is he. You're also going to have to deal with the red faces and the throwing people under the bus. And, you know, he doesn't. Your story that you guys did at the time he was fired, where it seemed like he was kind of checked out at lsu. Like he's going to have explanations for those things? Yeah, yeah.

Bruce Feldman

He was a terrible fit. And I think the biggest things you have to sort out if you're an AD are how much is he going to connect with players, how willing is he gonna be? Connect with players? How willing is he gonna be to take the face Times when every assistant coach brings a kid in, he'll be like, make an appointment. You can't do make an appointment in this day and age. Maybe you can get away with it 10 years ago at Notre Dame, you can't do it in this day and age. So I don't know. Again, just to button up. I mean, he did a remarkable job at Notre Dame. You can't take that away from him. It was a really ugly ending. And you' Marcus has grown into the job and knocked it out of the park and in a lot of ways can do things that Brian Kelly can't because he's got this presence and this charisma and honestly, a likability that. That pops out. And I think he's picked up some. You know, to his credit, he's taken some of the Jim Trestle stuff and figured out what works for him. You know, that all is good.

Stuart Mandel

Getting back to him, I have to guess it'll be somewhere in the acc. I feel like that's the part of the country. And first of all, he basically was an ACC coach for a long time there. They're playing all those ACC teams and beating them. Just. That seems like more of a fit to me than, like, if you said he's gonna be the next coach at Baylor.

Bruce Feldman

Right. If Belichick walked away after another disaster season.

Stuart Mandel

Yeah, yeah. The only thought would be, well, now we're doing another like you would think after the back to back of Mack Brown and Belichick they're going to go get like a 36 year old up and comer. But yeah, that one came to mind if NC State opened for some reason. I'm not saying there's any reason to think that right now. Ralph I thought was a little premature on throwing Fran Brown out, but if that did happen, something like that.

Bruce Feldman

So getting back to the podcast on the Independent, to me the most compelling part of the interview actually came towards the end. Our friend Matt Fortuna asked what I thought was a terrific follow up question. Honest. It was one that I think most of us, myself included, would have probably missed to button it up. And it goes back to kind of what it felt like. A throwaway question at the end where Fortuna asks brings up the Travis Kelsey Taylor Swift wedding from a couple of weeks ago and if Brian Kelly was there now for people who might have forgotten he was his coach at Cincinnati. So Kelly answers and the way he talked about it made it sound like it was his decision not to go. He said something like, ah, didn't feel that, that he didn't feel like it was the right thing for him, right place for him to be at. So that's definitely sounded like it was him kind of making it, spinning it like, oh yeah, I was invited, but I didn't want to go or didn't think I should go. So Fortuna asks him, were you invited? So Brian Kelly pauses and goes, no. And then Fortuna fires back, it was like Dean Blandino got invited and the college coach, his college coach was not. And then Kelly kind of laughed it off. But it was kind of one of those things where you're like, it's good for them to like kind of point it out because I, I think that's the kind of like, I don't know how he worded it before misrepresentation or mischaracterization. You know, that would have gotten mischaracterized in terms like, oh yeah, he said he was invited and he decided not to go when somehow it would have come out like, you know, weeks later. He actually wasn't invited. And then you kind of get the, you kind of get the blowback from that and it becomes more of a

Stuart Mandel

story than it's not, you know what that is? That's the difference between being aggregated by our sites in our world. You know, maybe aggregating that he didn't get invited to Entertainment, I don't know, Entertainment Weekly is that still a thing. E tmz. All these people being like, somebody turned down an invite, this football coach and turned down an invite to the wedding of the century. I'll be honest, until he asked that on the podcast, I myself had forgotten that Brian Kelly is Travis Kelsey's college coach. I don't, I don't know why. I don't know why. I think because Travis Kelsey was not a huge superstar at Cincinnati, you know,

Bruce Feldman

but he's also more of the Butch Jones guy. Like I've heard, you know, I was at Tennessee when Travis Kelsey was in the room, in the team room and came back to see Butch Jones.

Stuart Mandel

Yeah.

Bruce Feldman

You would think in my head that,

Stuart Mandel

yeah, if you would think if Travis Kelsey had some sort of, you know, not every. And just to be clear, like, I would actually say most college players do not go on to have like a long lasting relationship with their college coach, but some do. And if I, if that were the case here, I would think I would have at some point seen footage of Travis Kelce in LSU's locker room or Notre Dame's locker room. Like, I just don't associate those two. But yeah, good on Matt. I think to follow up with that, we're going to take a quick break. When we come back, ACC media days.

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Bruce Feldman

Okay. And we're back. Stu, earlier in the day I watched a lot of ACC network and watching interviews from ACC media days. I gotta be honest, I love this time of year. I mean I was at Big 12 media days last week where you're talking to coaches and talking to players and it starts to feel like the season is right around the corner. It absolutely did when I was listening to a lot of the discussions of that. We're going to get into a little deeper, dive into the ACC now. But off the top, Miami is, I think most people feel like the strongest favorite of any of the power four conference, conference teams to win their conference. And it feels like they've separated from the rest of the league to a large degree. Even though they didn't even win the conference title last year or haven't won it since they've been in the league, a little of it. The team that did actually win it, which is kind of a trivia question at this point, is Duke. And Miami not only took their quarterback, Darian Mentor, they also took their next best player, Cooper Bar Kate, his go to receiver and now they play for Miami. So is that your perception too, do you think? Is Miami the biggest front runner right now in the power four among all these leagues and is ultimately that a good thing or a bad thing for, for, for the acc?

Stuart Mandel

It does seem that way, even though like you said, amusingly, they haven't actually won the conference in the 20 something years they've been in it and here they are considered the overwhelming favorite. But I don't, I mean they made the, it's not just that they made the national championship game last year like they are spending, I would imagine there's probably a pretty big Gap in how much they're spending on their roster versus the next team in the acc. And also, like you just alluded to, right, like, yeah, they lost some, some really good players, no question, from last year's team, especially on the lines of scrimmage. But, but the way they went in the portal, they go and get Darren Mensah, frankly, who at the time, nobody would have thought he would be in the portal. They get Darren Mensah, they get Cooper Barkade on defense. They get, you know, they're obviously losing two fantastic pass rushers. They go and get Damon Wilson from Missouri, number three in the SEC in sacks last season. And then even on the offensive line, you know, you're, you're where your most important positions are. Obviously, the tackles, like, they're ready to ride with Jackson Cantwell, the most, you

Bruce Feldman

know, highest ranked offensive line prospect to come out of college in high school in a while. I mean, both parents were Olympic shot putters and he's a giant and a really big explosive athlete. I think that's the, the follow up to this. It's not just the portal. It's the getting Malachi Toney as a freshman to go there. It's the way he, it's the way they've evaluated with high school players, players.

Stuart Mandel

That's crystal balls. He's still a great high school recruiter. Their starting lineup this year is not projected to be full of transfers. Maybe, I mean, men's probably four or five total. The other guys are guys that have come up through that program. Certainly a lot of the replacements on the offensive line came up through the program. And then you have a lot of guys. I mean, Mark Lecture's back. I think Mark Lecher was the heart and soul of that. When they started to get hot after those two losses in the middle of season, it's because they started feeding him the ball. All those running backs that you saw in the national title or. And during the playoff run are back. So Bryce Fitzgerald, freshman, breakout guy last year in the, in the secondary. So there's no reason why they shouldn't be just as good, if not better. Doesn't mean they're going to. That doesn't necessarily guarantee you go back to the national championship game. And so then you look at the rest of the acc. All right, can I talk myself into Team X? I can't, you know, never say never, but there's no other team that I look at and go, well, if they, if the right things come together here, they could be better than Miami.

Bruce Feldman

The team I am talking myself into if there would be a second playoff team out of the ACC is NC State. And I know you're uncomfortable with Dave Doran. Like I, because I know he does

Stuart Mandel

podcasting you to say yeah so I,

Bruce Feldman

I definitely like C.J. bailey. He's also a Miami kid. He's really big. He had a really good season last year. I think it was like 25 touchdowns, nine ints. Young quarterback, can run, has talent around him. Duke Scott is potential to be the breakout. One of the breakout stars in the league. JoJo Traitor, former Miami guy who's known CJ Bailey for a long time now is back, transferred up to NC State who will be another playmaker. They have a lot of athletes around. I mean I think and to Doran's credit they have a good system in place for developing athletes. You know, they got as good a strength program as anybody does in the acc and I just feel like you've seen that over. That's why they have. That's why he's still there, I think. And then when you look at the schedule, they don't play Miami in the regular season. They get Louisville at home. I know you and I are both kind of optimistic about Cal. They get Cal at home. I think that helps. So I could see them as a 10 win team, maybe getting to maybe going 10 and 2. Being the team that faces Miami. If you lose 10 and 3, I don't know if that gets you in the playoff. It depends on all the other circumstances. But I think they're a team to keep an eye on. Again, that would be. I think they would be my sort of sleeper team out of, out of the ACC to watch.

Stuart Mandel

I'll. I'm open to anything. It's not like I've done a deep dive on NC State's personnel. But as I look back at them last season they went 8 and 5 and when they played the best teams, they lost 36 to 7 to Notre Dame, 41 to 7 to Miami, 53, 34 to Pitt.

Bruce Feldman

The last one is the most, the last one is the most glaring one of those because the other two are really, really good teams.

Stuart Mandel

But. And that's frankly the. They also lost 45, 33 to Duke, the ACC champion, and then a close loss to Virginia Tech. And that's frankly the story of his entire tenure. He can get them to eight, nine wins. That's not really unusual. They don't win. They just don't beat the really good teams. They never do. And so for you to sit here and say, I Think they can make the playoff. That's going to require doing things that he hasn't done in his entire 13, 14 year tenure.

Bruce Feldman

this point I'm not sure it's going to require that because I don't think they play the really good teams. This like the way the schedule sets up. I think they got, they got to go to Vandy, but it's Vandy without Pavia right now. They, I don't think they play a lot of really, really good teams. They play a lot of decent teams and the, and the pretty good teams they play have to go to Raleigh. So that's my point. In the regular season I think they have a chance to go 10 and 2 a decent because the quarterback is really good because there is some good talent around him. I want.

Stuart Mandel

If you're saying that 10 and 2 is going to win the ACC then

Bruce Feldman

I think it's going to win. I think it's going to get you, I think it can get you to the ACC championship game.

Stuart Mandel

Well, I just don't think 10 and 2 with that schedule in the ACC is going to get you in a large bid. But starting this year, and probably a lot of people have either didn't know this or forgotten this in the new contract that starts this year, all of the power four champions are guaranteed a birth. So you know, last year Duke wasn't ranked. Duke won it but wasn't ranked high enough. Don't have to worry about that this year. So if NC State wins the accuracy, NC State's going to the playoff. But if NC State goes 10 and 2 and loses in the championship game and their best win of the season is Virginia. I don't know, Louisville at Virginia. Yeah, I mean we know how the committee views ACC. Like you're going to get a 9 and 3 sec or Big 10 team before you're going to get that 10 and 2 ACC at large team in.

Bruce Feldman

Yeah. And since you brought it up, the ACC did modify its tiebreaker. I think the third thing, and again The ACC was 17 teams. It's kind of a funky number. And so like it's just weird. They have conference games that actually aren't considered conference games but then they're using source sports analytics like team success rate I think is the, the third barometer which I think in that case would have probably kept Duke out of the conference championship game and gotten Miami into it just based on, you know, the worst and the playoff potential of that. Then again, I think what's different is, as you said, if you win the Conference championship you're in. But a five loss team being in is kind of a smear on the ACC as a whole anyway.

Stuart Mandel

Yeah, just to fill people in on that, that the tiebreaker thing. So if you remember last year, it was just a total mess of six and two teams. And like a lot of the conferences do you know, strength, opponents, winning percentage, it came down to that. And Dukes had the highest opponent winning percentage. So they got in at the expense of Miami for one. The ACC said no team will be overly rewarded or penalized based on the number of conference games it plays. And then when head to head matchups cannot separate tied teams, the ACC will use the team success rankings provided by Sports Source Analytics. You were pushing for this last year during the whole selection committee stuff like, hey, acc, get your act together. You need to try to get your highest ranked team in there. And so that's basically what's going to happen. Whoever's ranked highest, it makes sense, right? Yeah, yeah. I think the only thing that could. We'll have to see how this is implemented. But that is not a publicly available ranking. That is something that's proprietary and public and provided to the cfp. So are fans gonna have any idea going into that last weekend who those teams would be if it comes down to that tiebreaker? I feel like this is, this happens in like the Mountain West. There's always some crazy computer tiebreake, but I think if you're in their shoes and you're trying to get more than one team in or you're trying to make sure you get your best team in that. Yeah, that's, that's definitely the way to do the tiebreaker. Maybe all of these bloated leagues need to do that because they have these wildly different schedules and it's coming down to like percentage points of opponent winning percentage. I know in the SEC and I wish I knew who this was off top of my head, but there was a scenario where somebody was gonna get lipped out because like they did play the good teams, but then they also played like worst teams. I never thought that was a good way to do it.

Bruce Feldman

My last thing for you, Stu, and I'll close this segment with this. I think I already know the answer, but I'm going to say it anyway. Florida State, Mike Norvell, very much on the hot seat. Our colleague Ralph did a story coming out of conference conference media days today about that. And Mike Norvell was like, yeah, I don't fear failure or whatnot, but the biggest factor here, it's the Third year in a row he's got a new quarterback. Ashton Daniel, somebody you've covered. He was in your backyard in Stanford, almost literally. And then last year he was at Auburn. And when. And when Mike Norvell gets is talking about why he's kind of bought in on this. He does reference Ashton Daniels late in the year. Last year he didn't play a ton at Auburn, but he did have two games, one against Vandy, who was good last year. They lose in kind of a wild back and forth, like 45, 42, you know, goes for like 500 yards of offense. And then I think the next game they lose to Alabama. He doesn't, you know, I think he completes under 50% of his passes, but he definitely, you know, moved the ball and I think he ran for over 100 yards and you see, you could see some potential in there. He obviously is a pretty good runner based off of some of the numbers of what he did in those games. He's obviously a really smart guy, at least off the field for sure. Because he graduated from Stanford. He has had turnover issues. Mike Norvell's believing. Do you think there's a chance that the third act for Ashton Daniels will be as kind of the savior for his coach there? He does have Deuce Robinson, he does have Makai Dan. He's one of the fastest guys in college football and a more experienced offensive line to work around. Can I. Am I talking myself into Florida State maybe getting eight wins or you think it's crazy based off of your perception of the new quarterback?

Stuart Mandel

If Ashton Daniels can bottle that one fantastic game he had against Vanderbilt where he went 31 of 44 for 353 yards, two touchdowns and no pitch picks and do that all the time, then yes, they have a chance. But that is to this point in his career, an extreme outlier. If Mike Norvell can again like bring out the absolute best in him and he plays like he did against Vanderbilt, more often than not, you got a chance. They have Deuce Robinson, who I have seen popping up on some preseason All American teams. You know, you at least have that weapon.

Bruce Feldman

But as you Danzi Dansey is a super dynamic player. Like he doesn't get talked about enough too. So it's not like they just have one big, big tall receiver. They have, they have some firepower, but

Stuart Mandel

as we talked about the other day, they did not have the support this year to go out and put together a great roster. And there's just everybody's so checked out. I'm curious to see that first game. They're actually playing the. This year. They're playing the Monday night. Well, they have New Mexico State on week zero. Can't imagine that we well attended. But that SMU Monday night, Labor Day night game, like the UNCTCU game last year, playing a top, probably preseason top 25 SMU team. What does that crowd look like? Are people willing to give them a chance, say, hey, we could win this game and get going? Or are they already just, I'm not spending my money until Mike Norvell is out of there?

Bruce Feldman

No, I think they're willing to give a chance. It's a good team who was in the playoff, you know, two years ago and should be very good again. I think it's, you know, again. What does it mean if they go out and beat SMU and, you know, and technically they're not their opener, but their second game or their first big game of the year. I mean, they went out and looked impressive against Alabama last year at this time. I don't think it assures them of anything, but I think people will show up because it's still. Florida State is still like the biggest deal around there. It may not be. They may not be die hards and all bought in the way they are in a lot of other places at this point. But it's not, you know, it's. I think it's the other game, the one you mentioned, the, the week zero game that they will be checked out on real quick.

Stuart Mandel

Did you see that SMU quarterback Kevin Jennings is getting a building named after him? Yeah, I, I, you don't see that every day.

Bruce Feldman

No, I felt like Marcus Marioto was like the youngest person to have like a major structure in a building named after him. And it was like he was not that far removed from his days in Eugene, but, like, it's good for smu. I mean, I love that, you know, they have kind of a sordid history, obviously, with the death penalty. And then the program got built back up and Rhett Lashley's done a really good job and it feels like they got a really good thing going, you know, and Kevin Jennings being a big part of it, you know, they got him to the playoff, so good for them to lean into like, you know, this version of SMU football.

Stuart Mandel

It's the Kevin Jennings Recovery center and it's donors Ann and Malcolm Holland. So instead of naming it after themselves, they just, they wanted to honor Kevin Jennings. And even though he's not the most heralded quarterback nationally, it tells you like At SMU after decades of struggling like this era has been really special to them. And he's been the face of it.

Bruce Feldman

I wonder if donors will do something like this and say, hey, we want to retain you for the next couple years. The JKS media lounge lounge or something. Will I come to Berkeley because we're going to do something in your honor like that.

Stuart Mandel

When we come back, it's mailbag time.

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Bruce Feldman

And we're back. As always, send your questions to theaudiblepodmail.com Stu, you noticed this and I did, too. It's cool that we got some new names. Sending in questions. I know that warms your heart. And we're going to start off with Andrew Haquez. I think it's Haquez. Sounds like the. Sorry. All right, we're going to start off with Adam Haquez. Hi, Bruce. Doing Ralph. What programs would have benefited the most from NIL if it had been available in previous eras? Oklahoma State with Tebow and Pickens comes to mind. Similar to Texas Tech or Maryland with Kevin Plank when they were still in the ACC and where a smaller investment makes a big difference. Who else do you think would have been in that realm? Stu?

Stuart Mandel

Well, he nailed the T. Boo and Pickens, right? I mean, T. Boo and Pickens, basically, because in that day. Right, right. If you had a lot of money to burn, all you could really do is spend it on buildings. And that stadium, which is now T. Boon Pickin Stadium and their football building, like I feel like all of that was built in the late around, like let's say 2008, 2009 through T. Boon Pickens. So if that's today, does T. Boon Pickens say, you know, performance centers and stuff are nice, but, like, I'm just gonna go buy me a Cody Campbell type roster and if he does, where does that put Oklahoma State in the long run? You know, they ended up getting left behind in realignment, but Mike Gundy had a lot of success and maybe he could have had even more success. I mean, they came real close to playing in the BCS championship game in 2011, if he's fielding a better roster. Because really, throughout the Gundy era, it was a bunch of three stars and he would, he would find some diamonds in the rough. I never really understood the Kevin Plank, Maryland thing. I know he armor. He was a player there.

Bruce Feldman

He was a player there.

Stuart Mandel

Yeah. But like, did he really. What impact, if any, did he have on Maryland football?

Bruce Feldman

I think he was pretty prominent there around the program. The Under Armour brand was a lot hotter back then, way back then. And I think that added to it. They were sponsoring a lot of things around athletics. He was very involved. I don't think he was. You know, it was kind of. He was there. Phil Knight, on a much smaller scale. So I think I get why, I get why, you know, Adam referenced that name, because I do think there was like, he was a. He was a big deal. A lot of times the big money people, unless you went to the school and you're somebody who's on their message boards, you probably don't know who. Who the, you know, the big money people are at individual places.

Stuart Mandel

So the other one that comes to mind, you tell me, is USC during the Pete Carroll days, because you had all of these celebrities hovering around the program, and I don't even, you know, Reggie Bush, like, in the end of the day, that was. That stuff that got them in trouble was pretty small time. I'm thinking more like, does Will Ferrell or Snoop Dogg or, you know, or frankly not just celebrities like entertainment moguls in Hollywood step up?

Bruce Feldman

Are they giving? Are they giving. Are they giving money or are they being more prominent? I. I don't know what you're. It's one thing for them to be prominent and be around the program. It's another thing. You know, some of those people, they're not like, they're probably not as wealthy as Wayne Hughes, who was one of their biggest money people.

Stuart Mandel

That's what I'm saying. I don't even know if it would have been the movie stars necessarily. But you're in la. Like, you know, the USC fan base is pretty affluent.

Bruce Feldman

It is, yeah. I mean, you referenced Reggie. There was a long conversation I had. There was like two of them after, like, I think we talked a couple of days in a row about the onset of nil and everything else and including his own situation. And one of the things that came up was like, hey, if one of these big money people, and they aren't. They didn't have to be Tuck Pickens kind of big, they could have been somebody with like $100 million instead of a billionaire. And they said, you know what? I want to have Reggie Bush come to my kid's birthday party. I'm going to give him $500,000 to come. That's the kind of way thing, like if you, if you're USC or you're some school and decided to say, hey, we're going to coordinate with our biggest boosters. We're going to have kind of this fat cat get gathering and align them all up and say, hey, you're going to. This is how you can help us. You know, instead of giving us 5 million straight, you do, like some of these parties where our players just show up and they do meet and greets and that's how they get compensated. That could make a big difference. It also could help them on the back end where, you know, there's different kind of relationships where you're like, oh, maybe down the road I can go work for this. I'll get a job working for this company after I'm done playing.

Stuart Mandel

We're also seeing now that Miami has a lot of money. And I'm not even talking about John Ruiz, he turned out to be kind of a fraud. But the, you know, they're, they're spending $6 million on quarterbacks. They, they have money. And so if you go back 30 years, I mean, they were already dominant, but could they maybe kept it going longer or could they have.

Bruce Feldman

Well, back then, they didn't have the big money boosters at that point. Remember, they. Nevin Shapiro's name, he was a willing BO who didn't go to Miami, who didn't really have a ton of skin in the game, but he was involved because he was willing to throw some

Stuart Mandel

money around, but he was involved in, you know, a shady way if it was above board. Some of the stuff you're seeing now have happened a decade earlier and they get their act together faster.

Bruce Feldman

Yeah. My point on that, though, is Just like Manny Navarro, our colleague, did a really good story, like a few years ago back about how Miami, I want to say, like the Jackson Hospital and the. The medical field really flourished. And that became a big game changer for Miami from a financial standpoint. And I think it's a little complicated or it's very complicated in that, but I think that was like different kinds of money compared to, you know, back in the day, like, Williamson was a local big car dealership, was like one of their biggest boosters. But Miami didn't have the boosters the way that a lot of the. The blue blood programs that are really successful had them at that point. I think it's just changed. Just like around here with us, some of the big money people at usc, it's like new money compared to some of the other ones. You've either passed away or it's just kind of. It's just changed hands a lot. And I think that's the different era of things.

Stuart Mandel

All right, Alex Sarabura from Ottawa. Hey, guys. It seems to me that almost all legendary coaches, Nick Saban aside, stick around well past their glory days and after the game has left them behind. Bobby Bowden, Joe Paterno, Mack Brown, et cetera come to mind. Is David just the most recent example of this, or do you think there's something different about what has happened at Clemson? For example, Dabo's relative youth or his initial refusal to adapt to the nil landscape. Related question. Do you see a way back to the pinnacle for Dabo, whether at Clemson or elsewhere?

Bruce Feldman

I think it comes back to one of Saban's biggest keys to success was that he constantly was adapting and he was changing. And yes, he had great resources, but he also, I think, was very savvy in how he approached. I remember going. I think it was almost on the same trip. I referenced the Travis Kelsey showing up at Tennessee or whatnot, or being around Tennessee was that I had been at Alabama and I went to Knoxville and Butch Jones had asked me something, and it's funny because later on he actually worked in Alabama for Nick Saban, but he drew. I think it was the Omega, the Greek letter. And he kind of drew a line in the middle of it. It was talking about, like, how. How Nick Saban utilizes staff change and change to keep things fresh and to keep things spinning forward. And he was masterful at that. And I think now, obviously Dabo had a lot of staff change. He lost a lot of really good coordinators over time, most recently Brent Venables. But I Think it's the key of, like, changing, adapting, and then overcoming when you. When you lose really good people. Like, it hurt Bobby Bowden when that collection of guys, and some of them didn't thrive when they went on, on their own, like Chuck Amato and Tennessee State. There were, like, core guys who moved on. And it's hard to keep that. That cohesiveness. And I think that. I think the hardest thing is when you have to replace good people or really good coaches and keeping that staff chemistry and keeping it aligned, especially when everything else is going to change. I mean, we spent so much time talking about how Dabo didn't lean into the transfer portal when everybody else basically did. And obviously that's a big factor, but I think it's only one of the factors. It's probably the biggest factor, but I think there's other things about it. When you add on this staff member and it doesn't quite work right. I just think that's the chemistry and the piece of it. Where it comes to staffing moves that's so hard to get right. And Saban got it right most of the time. I feel like Dabo has struggled with that. And I don't know if you. To me, it's like kind of capturing lightning in a bottle. Right. Like, he was the guy that nobody thought was going to get the job, and certainly nobody expected to keep it. And then when he did, he won better than they ever did and he had the gold stand. College football. And I remember. I don't know, I forgot who had interviewed me for this, but it was like the day of the 2020 national title game of LSU and Clemson. And I remember I did the interview before I went to the game, just sitting on my bed, and they asked, if Clemson wins this game, that would be the third national title. Would that make Dabble Sweeney the best college football coach in the country right now? Obviously, they didn't win it. They ended up getting kind of blown out. But. But that was the kind of pivot point a little bit. Because if after that it just. It's been a slow decline, like, they won 10 games. They won 10 games now, like, last year was a big dud. I'm not saying they can't get back to being a top 10 team, but it feels like it's getting a little further away or a lot further away. Right?

Stuart Mandel

Yeah. I mean, I think you hit the nail on the head about the staff turnover. I don't think he's going to get it back. I think, like you said, it was Kind of. I don't know if lightning in a bottle, but like, just this Moment in Time, 2015-2020, where everything aligned for Clemson. And I think a lot of the, you know, I visited there a couple times in the off seasons then, and was like, everything that he was doing that made them unique has kind of worked against them since. And the main one being, I just remember asking him, like, how are you able to retain every. Everybody? Like, they didn't have the defections that other programs did. They didn't. They had lots of guys that could have easily turned pro after three years who still came back. Travis ETN comes to mind. And so it was like, oh, we've got this family, right? How many times did you talk about family? Got this close little family. But, like, because of that, because he's so loyal that when the town. You know, that's great when you have one of the most talented rosters in the country as the years went by and maybe they weren't quite as loaded and maybe they had some needs they could have addressed. I mean, basically, maybe he's just too nice. He wasn't cutthroat enough to just run guys off and replace them with somebody else. He was going to be loyal to the guys who he recruited, who came there. And that's good enough for him to win nine, 10 games a year, which I think he could get back to this year, but not to contend for national championships. And so it's like there is a parallel there to the Mack Brown, Joe Paterno, Bobby Bowden stuff. Only for them, it was, you know, decades later into their life.

Bruce Feldman

All right, Stu, this question is for Andrew Robinson. It's a familiar name is coming up, and he's going to ask about. I know y' all may not be able to say it, but most of the Texas Tech disdain is due to Cody Campbell. He has inserted himself into every part of college football, and beyond that, he can. It seems he's more interested in boosting his name than elevating Texas Tech. The fact that everyone knows his name is proof. There are so many rich boosters around the country, but for some reason, we all have to know this guy's name and face. If his priority was actually making Texas sex sports elite, he would take a step back while still contributing his financial resources. Is there a way to get this guy to step out of the limelight but still give his money to Texas Attack?

Stuart Mandel

I mean, first of all, I think we in the media have to acknowledge our role in that. And because of exactly what Andrew said most of these people who are donating the money for NIL stay behind the scenes. They don't want to be interviewed. They don't want their names out there. So it's hard to get to those people. It's hard to get real information. Cody Campbell, on the other hand, once he kind of came on our radars, if you call him, you text him, he's going to call you back. He's extremely accessible and very candid about something that others play very close to the vest. He flat out said on the Record a year ago, oh, we spent $55 million on our athletes this year. Like, those are the kind of numbers that most of the. Of the sport don't want anybody to know. So. And they're advertising. And I get. Part of that is like, they need to. They feel like they need to show that they are. Are playing at the highest level that they are. They can do everything and more that a Big Ten or SEC's team can do, and they're kind of advertising that. But as a result, you know, that was a fun little story for a year there or so, but now the tables have turned and now he's becoming the face of something villainous, if you will. I think where it turned, though, was when he became, you know, when he started showing up on your TVs on Saturdays in political commercials, telling you why you should lobby Congress. Right. It's like. Like, I don't think. I think a lot of people just felt it was hypocritical that he's out there pushing to save college sports while doing things at Texas Tech that are part of the problem, are part of the perceived problem, and why Congress needs to act, or thinks they need to act in the first place. So. And then Brandon Sorsky happened, and that just took it to a new level. But, yeah, I think. And by the way, it's not just in the. I mean, in the industry, there are the. I would say a lot of the most important people in college sports loathe that guy because they just feel like he's. He's getting in everybody's way. He's pushing for changes that they never asked for. Nobody's asking for consolidated media rights. That's a Cody Campbell thing with the help of Smash Capital. So he does seem Bruce. Like he's kind of worn out his welcome.

Bruce Feldman

Yeah, look, I mean, he's also. He was a former player not that long ago. He's a billionaire multiple times over, and he is like, there's a lot of money people who do not throw this much money around at their. Not even just their football program because obviously we've talk about this before. He does it at their softball program. He's done it in a lot of ways that have wildly benefited Texas Tech athletics and the university. I mean, and so I get why, you know, last year we're at Big 12 media days and a lot of the coaches in the league were very ticked off and honestly envious and jealous of that kind of support that that program was getting from a booster who was coming to the table. I do think you hit on something though, because most of our, maybe not our audience, but a lot of college fans, I'm not sure they know that much in the margins. I mean a bulk of them do. But like I think it's like when you're. When it kind of hit me was just, you know, I'm in studio and I'm seeing a lot of these political ads. I'm like, man, these are showing up a lot. And I think that gets to be when people make the connection, oh, that's the guy who's Texas Tech sky. And it's just like I feel like they get, they get tired of it. Whether they know if you know it's altruistic and is it for the good of the sport long term, I just think it's something where it's like I think people are suspicious of that kind of thing. And that's probably.

Stuart Mandel

There are Cody Campbell's other schools. I guarantee you whatever Texas Tech is spending in nil, Texas is spending that much and more. But I couldn't name you a single who's funding it at Texas. And it's probably a large number of people, not just one. But you know, they're operating in anonymity versus Cody Campbell. Last question is from tho Bishop T H O and he acknowledges in parentheses. That's a weird name tho Bishop from Panama City, Florida. Hello gentlemen. Love the pod, particularly the occasional combative tone with love between the group. Thank. Glad you acknowledged that it's with love.

Bruce Feldman

My question is the combative tone is right now is in the ACC area. That's where the combative tone is.

Stuart Mandel

The pot stirrer of the pot podcast is probably sitting in a conference room with Jim Phillips right now. My question is about the various arch types you are seeing rise in the role of college GM in the NFL. You tend to see some variation of a super scout, salary cap manager, director of player personnel, or the outlier like Howie Roseman with a finance background. Now that the GM role has become a bigger part of college. What are the particular skills being sought for this position and are there any in house predictions for what model may prove to have an advantage in this era, era of great uncertainty?

Bruce Feldman

Sue? I think there's really a. It's similar in to the NFL where it is a very wide swath of backgrounds that end up doing the job like right now, right. Going into this year, the gold standard of, as it relates to the GM model is a guy who's not a GM at all. He's the head coach. And that's Kurt Signetti, right. He did a masterful job of remaking Indiana football. He's the gm, right. He's got a personnel guy, Mike Ferreira, who's very supportive of that. But it's Signetti and the evaluation and how it comes together. And I think that's a big piece. One of the guys who, I would say one of the people who is probably one of the best GMs was Urban Meyer's recruiting guy for a long time, who's elevated into the role. That's Mark Pantoni. He's got a ton of experience and a ton of insight into how things, things fit. They're not as invested as some programs are when it comes to the portal because I think they're on the front end of the recruiting evaluation. But it's a big thing. You get to a school like Oregon who's obviously done really well in the portal. Marshall Malco was, you know, I felt like he was the GM because he's definitely, he's like Dan Lanning's right hand guy. He's technically his title as chief of staff. Somebody else now has the GM title. But I think it's so varied in the schools as to who does it like Miami's gm, Dennis Smith, who does a really good job and what they're, what they're doing. He was a, he was a former Mario Cristobal assistant coach back in the FIU days. You know, I think he went to Miami, but like, and that's his job now is the evaluation and the talent acquisition business. James Blanchard, Texas Tech guy getting paid a lot of money, has shown he has a really keen eye for talent. If you look at just the guys they spent a lot of money on, and they seem like they spend a lot of money on the right guys. You know, that's why they got to be a playoff team. That's why their defensive line was so good. You know, the flip side of this, and this is why I think the job is so tricky is there's a worst guy in this and the most overpaid and probably the. You know who it's going to be. I see you chuckling. Look at Mike Lombardi. He's paid seven figures. He has a really impressive resume. Bill Belichick brought him with him. And he's probably doing more damage to Bill Belichick standing in Chapel Hill than anything because it's been, you know, poor evaluations. And it's not because he doesn't. I don't want to say it's not because he doesn't know what he's doing, because I think that's probably. He doesn't know what he's doing. But, like, I think how you evaluate with the NFL is way different than how you need to evaluate in building college rosters. And it really blew up in their face last year. And we did a big story on that, and I feel like we've talked to a lot of people about. And then they did the pivot. Okay, we're not going into. We're not going to go heavy on the Portal, going to go heavy in recruiting and development out of high school guys. And that that role is critical. And I think it's interesting how it gets kind of manifested where obviously Belichick took a guy he entrusted so much, and I think you have to have that trust factor, but you better pick the right person, whatever their background is. Kurt Signetti, who did he trust the most when he took that job? Himself. He took himself and he bet on himself, himself, and it paid off handsomely.

Stuart Mandel

I mean, I just think the main difference in model that we have to see how it plays out is should the GM be truly in charge of the program like Andrew Luck is, like Ron Rivera is Jim Nagy to some extent, like, where they are the boss, not the head coach? Or does it continue to be. You work at the behest of the head coach. You know, you're helping the head coach with the. With the personnel side of it or negotiating with agents, taking that stuff off his plate. And I don't. I don't know. I don't know which one will prevail, but I do. It's funny because, like, I first began pushing for something like this or writing about this 10, 15 years ago. Even then I was like, way before Portal and Nil head coaches have too much on their plates, and you should really have somebody who's in charge of the business side of it. So. So it took this much change for that to happen. But I think we're still in the very early stages of defining what exactly a GM is. I think it doesn't necessarily mean the same thing from one program to the next.

Bruce Feldman

Yeah. And it's again, who, like I said, Signetti is proving that if you have the right coach, you don't need that role. I think it depends on the guys. Like, Mario Cristobal probably loves the evaluation and the recruiting chase part. That's how Ed Ogeron was. There's very few of those guys who are that way. I'm not saying they're dinosaurs. You know, Tosh Lupoi at Cal is in that mode, too. But I think, you know, there's not. Like, if Michael Leach was still around, Michael Leach would need a gm, and he kind of had that. Actually. Dave Emrick, you know, there were guys who've had kind of titles that way. Dave Emerick, who's, you know, with Lincoln Ryland. USC has been behind the scenes for a while, but, like, there are those guys who play a big role in putting their staff together. There wasn't a transfer portal back then, but I think there was. And there was an nil. But I think back then it was, how do you hire a staff? And the staffs have gotten bigger. So you're right, it's complicated. But I think for a lot of guys, it's like, no. Signetti speaks to this more than anybody. I know better than whoever else I could hire that role. I want to do it. Most guys aren't that way now.

Stuart Mandel

All right, I think this is going to be the hardest Choice for the $16 Trader Joe's gift card we've had in a long time. Four questions, questions. And to me, they were all interesting and all kind of in the same ballpark. I'll go with Andrew Robinson because he gave us a reason to crap all over Cody Campbell.

Bruce Feldman

I will go with tho because I feel like it's an important question about how the GM space works in 2026.

Stuart Mandel

All right, for simplicity's sake, you talked me into tho. We did have a pretty good discussion just there. Sorry. Andrew Bruce has converted me to tho. Plus, he has that. Maybe one of the more unique names of anybody who's emailed the podcast. So In Panama City, Florida, please send your mailing address to theodablepodmail.com everybody else can email their questions theaudiblepod Gmail.com. remember, if you love the audible, please give us a five star rating on your favorite podcast platform and subscribe if you haven't done so already. We'll see you next time.

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