The New Sunscreen Ingredient, Niacinamide Overload, and Keratin Treatments - Episode 428

A

Hi, I'm Perry, and you're listening to the Beauty Brains. Welcome to the Beauty Brains, a show where real cosmetic chemists answer your beauty product questions and give you an insider's look at the cosmetic industry. This is episode 428. I'm your host, Perry Romanowski, and with me today is Valerie George. Hello, Valerie.

B

Hi, Perry.

A

Valerie, we have a big show today and we want to get right to it because I gotta hop on a plane very shortly this afternoon. But before I hop on that plane, we're gonna answer your questions, including, are benzoyl peroxide products dangerous? Is a yu beauty serum really a holy grail? What is the new sunscreen Active approved by the FDA? Do you need more than 5% niacinamide? And how do keratin treatments work? And keratin treatments for the hair, that is. But first, a little chit chat. As I said, Valerie, I'm getting ready to hop on a plane to Austria. Whoa.

B

What's in Austria?

A

Well, I'm speaking at a conference out there. You know, a cosmetic science conference. It's a two day conference. I'm going to be giving a talk about AI and cosmetic formulating and how the two can mix, match, and sometimes conflict. Wow.

B

You're the right guy to do it. I know you're a big proponent of AI in the right places. Also a proponent of not AI in the right places.

A

Exactly. I realize that AI is going to be bad for society, but it also can be good for society. And I don't think the correct solution is to stick our heads in the sand and be negative because it's not going away. So we got to learn to adapt to this. Use it when it's good, don't use it when you shouldn't. And figuring that out is what the talk is all about.

B

Wow. Very cool. Wish I could be there.

A

Yeah. Have you been to Austria?

B

Oh, many times, yes. I lived in Germany until I was almost 10 years old, and so we've popped over a few times. It's very beautiful.

A

Yeah. Yeah. I'm staying in Vienna. So that's the big city and lots of old architecture there.

B

Okay. Yeah, I've actually never been there, or Wien, as they say. But I've been to many remote villages and stuff like that. My Oma, she actually, her ancestors were from a village, a very tiny village in Austria before they relocated to Germany. But this was like 400 years ago.

A

Now, Austria, they pretty much speak German.

B

Yes, but it's a little bit of a different dialect. You'll be okay. It's not like Swiss German. German, which at times can be incomprehensible.

A

Oh, well, I mean, I don't speak regular German either, so.

B

Oh, okay, great.

A

Yeah, everybody speaks English, so that's. That's what I know.

B

Yeah, that's good. Yeah. No, Austria is great. Love the food, obviously. Love the language, love the topography. You're in for a treat.

A

Yeah, well, I will report back. I also hope my kittens are still here. Well, I don't know if I hope they're still here. I want them to get adopted, but, you know, the kittens got their surgeries and so they're ready to be adopted. And I tell you, they're almost as big as their mother. So now I have a. I have a house full of six cats and they're very energetic, I must say.

B

Oh, yeah, I've seen a couple popping on screen. I see one getting in the plant. Oh, so cute. I wish I could take them.

A

They are. Well, they're called Chicago Rescue Shelter, and they're trying to adopt them out now, so they already got their pictures. It's up on a website, but you can check it out on. Let's see, you can follow on Porch Kitty TikTok, so you can see the kittens there. You know, somebody's wrote a comment on, on my tick tock there. They said, oh, I've heard you talk about the heat miser on the. The podcast. And now I get to see him. That's. That's fun.

B

Yeah, it's cool. Cause they don't necessarily look like you describe them sometimes. Not that you describe them inaccurately, but it's good to put a kitty face to a kitty name.

A

Of course. Of course.

B

Well, I've had Butch and Frank for three years. That's my big news this week. And we spoiled them and got them many treats and good meals and lots of cuddles. And I can't believe it's been three years already that we've had these big monsters in our lives.

A

Yeah, geez. Big dogs are. They take up space.

B

They certainly do. Especially, I mean, Frank, he's very good. But Butch, if he is on something and he doesn't want to move, I mean, he's 95 pounds. He's not budging an inch.

A

That's a big guy.

B

Yeah. And if he lays on you, it's like, get off of me. But then you can't. And then I think I tore my rotator cuff. It's a long story. But anyway, yeah, they're big.

A

Have you always had big dogs?

B

No, my previous dogs that I had for over 15 years, 13 years and over 15 years respectively. The two of them, brother and sister, they were like medium sized dogs. They were big for la. People in LA would always be like, oh, you have big dogs. And I'm like, well, I don't really think they're big. They're not, you know, teacups or anything, of course. But yeah, I'd say like medium to large.

A

I like the medium dog. Although as far as pets go, cats are just easier to manage.

B

Yeah, I have always had cats, but Mr. Cosmetic Chemist has a little allergy and so that makes it really tough. But he doesn't get so allergic to Doug, which is really nice. But I also have Doug on this. I don't know if it really works, but a food that helps them allegedly helps them produce less of that allergen in their saliva that gets on their fur. I don't know if it works, but that's what we buy him.

A

Sure. You know, the marketing is strong. The science maybe not as strong. Sounds like the beauty industry, really. Speaking of the beauty industry, you know, we got some listener comments. It's your voice we wanna hear.

B

Welcome to listener Feedback right here. Wait. Perry cut his nose off with a chainsaw. We need this story. Valerie. I really like Sarah V. Skin Renewing Eye Cream. Give it a try. Erica.

A

Yeah, that was from Erica. She's a patron. And then another patron, she said, wait, wait. Perry cut his nose off with a chainsaw? I've been following Beauty Brain since at least 2018 and I don't think I've ever heard that story. Surely I remember if you told it on the show, Misty.

B

Well, I feel like you've maybe mentioned it once, but you never really told. And you've told me the story, but I don't recall if that ever made it into a final cut of the episode. So what exactly happened? And you didn't cut your nose off, you hacked your nose?

A

Well, in the original telling of the story, I always say I cut my nose off because it's much more entertaining. But what really happened was. All right, I'll do this short because we want to answer some questions, but what really happened was I was 18 years old and I was working as like a landscaper kid for a summer job at a. A steel mill. My dad was working at a place called Allied Tube and Conduit, and he got me this job in between college and high school or in between years in college. So I was by myself and this guy asked me to cut the Limbs from a tree that was growing through a train link fence. It was blocking the train tracks. And so I was, you know, and I like to be really close and clean. And so I was using this chainsaw and cutting the limb, and the chainsaw hit the chain link fence that it was growing through, and then it kicked back up and smashed me right in the face, right at the nose. And then. So that split my nose open.

B

My nose has a significant scarring on it.

A

So this wasn't a minor cut, big scarring. So, yeah, so that split my nose open. It was bleeding. And then I had read earlier in that day, I just happened to be reading on the bulletin board, said, if you get injured at work, you have to go see your boss. Now, I thought they probably met eventually, but in my brain, I'm like, oh, better go see my boss. So. And I was bleeding a lot, and I was kind of embarrassing. I didn't want anyone to see me. So I'm hiding my face, and I had to walk, like, a half a mile to get to my boss's office. And I got there, and he was in a meeting, and so I decided to wait for him to get out of his meeting. So I'm sitting on his couch, and then this point, the blood starts to gush a little bit more, and I'm trying to catch it in my hard helmet that I was wearing. And then I decided, yeah, you know, maybe I should interrupt him. So I sheepishly knock on his door and I poke my head, and I'm like, oh, you got a minute? And I just have this bloodied face, and this guy just almost had a heart attack. He's like, oh, my God. So they called up the nurse, and then he drove me over to the nurse's thing, and then the nurse taped my nose back onto my face with some tape. And they took me to the hospital and they stitched me right up. A few things, a dermabrasion. And, you know, you can barely tell that I sliced my nose. But I do have a significant scar on my face, but I wear glasses.

B

Thank goodness nothing more happened. I mean, that could have been.

A

Yeah, no, it could have been a lot worse. Although I have to say, imagine if I got my eye, and how much more entertaining would I be if I had a glass eye? I mean, I could pop that out,

B

do a little juggling situation.

A

So that's the no story. I'm surprised that it hasn't made the show before.

B

We have more feedback from Garrett.

A

Yeah, Garrett said he was responding to one of the shows that we did, he said one thing I disagree with is the idea that brands listing active percentages is a negative because a consumer will see a small number and think that's not enough. Consumers are more educated than ever and becoming more and more educated every day. All they have to do is Google or ask an AI model is 0.5% of coenzyme Q10 enough for topical skin care benefits? And they instantly know the answers. These days I almost never buy an active forward product if the brand is not telling me the concentrations. And we, we had mentioned that a couple of shows ago about percentages and a brand and you know, we, neither of us were very impressed by that. But Garrett seems to say there's some benefit to consumers. What do you think?

B

Well, I'd actually like your opinion because asking Google or an AI model is similar to using just AI, period. And I think that there's a lot of things that the AI model will not know about the formulation. And concentration isn't everything. Sometimes they're sitting synergies to create more bioavailability of a material and other fine nuances like, you know, can you increase the penetration coefficiency or you know, or lower the. It's kind of complicated to explain but basically the log p of a material to get it to penetrate. And even if things have too large of a molecular weight, you can still get them to penetrate using 10 tactics that maybe aren't so straightforward. And an AI model would never know by reading the box.

A

Yeah, I would not have a lot of faith in the stuff you get from AI models because they're trained on stuff that's published on the Internet. And while the Internet is filled with correct information, it's also filled with incorrect information. And a lot of the stuff that they're learning about active ingredients and what's effective and is published by companies that have a stake in making sure that their active ingredient actually is doing a positive thing. So most of the stuff that AI is trained on about active ingredients is marketing information. It's not scientific information. Now it might scan through, you know, PubMed databases but you know, again I have, there are very few really good active ingredient studies when it comes to skincare and topicals because the stuff that's published is all biased in favor of there being effect. Nobody's publishing stuff that's saying hey, here's an active ingredient that doesn't work because nobody would publish that even though the studies, if you do them, that sometimes happens.

B

I would actually say even the PubMed scrolling is not Accurate data. Because sometimes I've gotten information that I know is not what the scientific literature is leading to. And I'll say, hmm, that's an interesting study statement. Can you provide a reference? And either can't provide a reference or it provides a completely made up author, publication title, publication itself, dates, conferences. And you're like, that's not a real conference. And so I don't even trust the scientific data. It's trolling.

A

You have to use these AI very specifically. You have to train them on specific. If you take a specific paper and say, only look at this paper, maybe that's better, but you have to use it with caution. But I would say. And this idea that consumers are becoming more and more educated every day, I know consumers feel that way and marketers tell them that they are, and market research people say they are, but honestly, I think a lot of people are miseducated and misinformed. They have more information, but the information is not necessarily correct. And it's just easy to do because you're learning something from TikTok, Instagram or online or AI and you don't have any idea if that's true. I would say there's at least a 30 to 50% chance that the stuff you learn about ingredients is not true or incorrect in a way.

B

Interesting. Your AI take is interesting, Perry. I would have thought you would have been like, it's great. I mean, not that you know, it's right all the time, but.

A

Right. No, like I said, I am happy to use AI to make pictures and make little songs and stuff and even to help me quickly read through a paper, but even if you have it summarize a paper for you, you better double check because it makes stuff up and you do not know. So I don't know. Use AI with caution.

B

I'm not a huge AI user, but did I ever tell you about the time I had AI make a picture of you?

A

No, you did not.

B

I have to find it. I don't even know how to get back to it. But basically I described you and it came up with an image and I was like, nah. A little dweebier? Nah. His glasses need to be a little more this or that. Can you show him juggling? You know, he loves cats. And so essentially he created this photo of you and I showed it to a few people and I'm like, who do you think that looks like? And they're like, yeah, that kind of looks like Perry. So it's not perfect, you know, but it did a good job. And one time it made a photo to dweeby. And I was like, okay, no, like, how do you. With like a. And I said, make them cooler than that. And it had you, like in a jean jacket and stuff. But here you are.

A

Oh, wow.

B

And you're juggling shampoo bottles.

A

It's very close, but nice. I'll put that in the show notes if you send it to me. All right, Valerie, are we ready to head out to some questions?

B

Let's do it.

A

First question comes to us from Alyssa. She says, hi, beauty brains. I had a quick question that I was hoping I could get your opinion on for the podcast. I was wondering, what are your thoughts about the whole CeraVe benzoyl peroxide into benzene class action lawsuit situation? I know this happens when heat is applied, but from my understanding, the level of heat to make this happen is much higher than normal human behaviors for ie would not happen if you leave the product in the shower. Why is this controversy happening now? Hasn't the ingredient been FDA approved for a while now? And why is only CeraVe getting hit with when plenty of other brands use benzoyl peroxide? Thank you so much. Love the podcast and the porch kitties. So you're familiar with this Cerave lawsuit?

B

Yeah, and they're not the only ones getting hit. Just to clear off the table, a lot of other brands are being met with plaintiffs attorneys, letters saying, you know, hey, we've taken your product, we've tested it, and it has benzene present in it. Or they're part of this. The Valisure report where it found all these brands had benzene in the products. They're saying, hey, you know, this report was published and, you know, basically we're going to sue you. So they're not the only brand being hit.

A

Yeah, I see this story. L' Oreal owns survey faces class action lawsuits. So the FDA tested 95 products for benzene contamination and concluded that a limited number of products should be recalled at the retail level. More than 90% of tested products had undetectable or extremely low levels of benzene. In other words, affected retailers have been instructed to remove products from stores. However, there are no specific instructions for consumers. So there is a. There is a lawsuit. And I don't know. I don't think it's a cause for concern myself.

B

No. And the discrepancy comes in the testing methodologies. So typically you want to run this test using like, GCMS or something like that. And so, yeah, you have to put chemicals into headspace essentially to check for them. And with any cosmetic product, this generally requires some type of temperature application. And every lab, you know, they have the same equipment, but maybe they have their own methodology that they use to take these measurements. And it depends on the type of product. What, you know, is it super viscous, not viscous, how complex is the mixture, et cetera? And so essentially they create their own in house methodologies. And in the case of benzoyl peroxide with high intense heat for an extended period of time, it can decompose into residual benzene. And the GC Ms. Will pick that up. And that doesn't mean benzene's actually in the product per se. And this is the industry's counter argument to these other testing methodologies. And so I would say, like, the testing method is really important. And I think the fda, if they're not finding it, you know, you think they would want to find it. It's a different story, but it's likely down to different methodologies. And I know this to be true because even for something as simple as heavy metals, you get different results depending what laboratory you send it to. Now, are they statistically significantly different? You know, it depends. But I have had like super high nickel readings, for example, in one laboratory, and then you send it out to two other labs and they're not getting that same readings. So I think yeah, it's highly dependent on the testing and there's nothing necessarily to worry about because the FDA has already said that testing data from these labs that are generating these lawsuits aren't valid.

A

Right. And the product, as you said, has been on the market forever. So that does get to the question of, so why now? I think one of the reasons why now is because this is a way that people can make money in the beauty industry. Coming up with lawsuits and getting big companies to settle, you know, and scaring consumers is a great way to, to do that. They did it with, you know, hair falling out, like remember when shampoo causing hair fall? And they. There's all kinds. There was someone trying to do it with aluminum in deodorants causing Alzheimer's talc. They were trying to do that. And this is just a way to make money. Now is it, Are these products really dangerous to consumers? There's no evidence that that is the case. None of those was the case. However, for a company standpoint, it sometimes just makes more sense for them just to settle this lawsuit. It would cost them less money, it will take them less time and distraction and that. So that's what sometimes happens. And so then the lawyers and the early class action joiners can cash in for some big money and you know, then, then go away for the next one. I guess there's nothing about this benzoyl peroxide and benzene thing that anybody should really be concerned with. The levels that you have are very low and it's doubtful that it actually happens in the products that's on your shelf.

B

Exactly.

A

And as far as why CeraVe is the one, I think there's other ones that are. But CeraVe's own by L', Oreal, a big company with big money. That's why they go after him.

B

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I know for a fact other companies are getting letters. It's a big topic in, you know, regulatory circles and that kind of stuff. So it's just, I think the only one getting publicized also because it is a big brand. So when these class action lawsuits hit these legal dockets and they become public news segments, pick them up, but they're not necessarily picking up other ones.

A

The bottom line is you should not worry about using benzoyl peroxide products. Nobody's putting benzene in there and they're only detecting it because of the analytical methods they're using to break down the molecules to measure some level of whatever ingredient it is. All right, we got one from Patreon. From Samantha.

B

Hi guys. Patron here. Love the show. I wanted to ask about the U beauty resurfacing compound. Holy grail multitasking serum. I used this in the past and found it to be a great product for my skin. It seemed to do mostly what it claimed, combining the benefits of up to eight skin care steps into one streamlined formula. The resurfacing compound strategically delivers powerhouse ingredients to visibly improve uneven textures, pores, discoloration, the look of fine lines and wrinkles, and more for glass like skin. I'm not striving for my skin to look like glass. I don't even know what that means or why I would be striving for it.

A

Haha.

B

And I'm not sure what the deal is with people squirting or dripping product including an entire dropper full of oil directly on their face. It seems a bit excessive. I assume that's not the correct way to apply products. But back to my point or question, why did this product seem to help my then 48 year old skin? I'm currently 55. Was it just an illusion or is there something beneficial in the ingredients? The price point is stupid high, which is why I can't use it now. But I'm occasionally tempted to bite the bullet and start using again. But I stay strong. Is there anything comparable at a lower cost that you're aware of? I do have erythema total. Angie. Actic rosacea. Save a ton of money on blush. I would call it moderate. I'm working with the dermatologist and treating topically in hopes to keep it from worsening too quickly. Quickly waiting for the cure. Here's the website and ingredient list. Maybe it's the multi patent pending siren capsule technology. Just kidding. Thanks for your time and wisdom. Samantha.

A

Patent pending. I love that little trick. Did we ever talk about what companies do with patent pending?

B

I'll tell you what a place I worked at one time did. It was not our patent, it was a raw material company's patent and we set it patented technology.

A

Well what we did a few times when we wanted to make a patent claim, you'd file a patent and whether you were going to get approved or not because it doesn't. It costs a company, you know, 10 grand to file a patent. But for a big multi billion dollar company that that doesn't matter. But what it does allow you to is for the two years that it takes them to review it, you could put patent pending on there and if you adjust it a little bit more, you can have that patent pending. So to some consumers patent pending means oh it's patented. But no, it just means patent pending. It could and most likely will, the patent will be rejected. So yeah, yeah. So I always laugh when I see patent pending. But okay, how about this product here? The U beauty product. And she said it's expensive but is she really right? That is expensive. Why? It's only $228.

B

Well 1.7 ounces. If you just want one ounce it's 148. So it's not as expensive as some of the stuff we looked at last episode.

A

Right. But it's definitely for like for us normies, that's expensive, right?

B

Yeah. Now I've gotten asked about this product a lot just from other avenues and essentially there's not really anything in the claims that you know, on paper makes it look different than other products. They said it can replace a toner, which is a hydrating product, a vitamin C serum, a vitamin E serum. If this product has vitamins C and E, of course it could replace that. Aha. Exfoliant, antioxidant complex, retinol essence, hyaluronic acid. I mean, yeah, it's a little silly of a marketing stretch I think because a lot of products combine These materials and it doesn't necessarily mean it can replace eight products, but that's okay. But really the claims are related to brighter even looking texture. Glowy glass like skin. So glass like skin looks smooth, it doesn't have bumps. And then visibly improved fine lines, wrinkles and pores. Is pretty self explanatory. They don't have clinical testing per se, but they've done consumer perception testing.

A

Sure.

B

Consumers. Oh yeah, I saw reduction in pore size, skin texture improved. And you know they have some really nice photos after 30 days of use. And then they have this siren capsule technology which is, you know, we don't really know what that is. They don't really explain it well.

A

Yeah, so I mean I'm looking at this to, to me this doesn't look unique compared to other stuff you might get. So I mean that she used the product and she remembers it fondly. That means that's for your skin. It's probably good. But really what's doing stuff, you know, it uses the sodium ascorbyl phosphate.

B

Well, sodium ascorbyl phosphate is mixed in literature. You know, there's not a lot of information about it. Magnesium ascorbyl phosphate has a lot more data.

A

Sure, sure. But basically it's a stabilized vitamin C. So there's that the dimethylsulfone, which is a skin conditioning ingredient. You know, it's going to depend on the ph of whether it's worth it. It has glycolic acid, it has hyaluronic acid. I mean they just threw everything at the kitchen sink in here, right? Yeah.

B

Now I don't know if there's anything at a level, let me just say that will really transform skin. I mean this looks like a very nice product. It's won a lot of awards with different beauty publications which, you know, how they get to those awards is a little bit mixed their process. But in terms of, you know, anything really truly transforming that I don't know but I think that it probably does do the things that it's claiming because the claims aren't super hard. Right.

A

Anybody can make a product with where consumers going to use it and think that their pore size has been reduced. You know, that's, that's not hard to do. Anybody can. Yeah, of course. Increase in skin hydration. Yeah. Moisturizers do that reduction in visible wrinkles. Yeah. These things are not hard to accomplish with products that are much less expensive. So they're not making any amazing claims if you ask me.

B

Now I will say the thing that might be Hard to replace. I mean, they have a lot of different actives in here, and that's kind of uncommon. I mean, is the vitamin C and the retinoid they have in there the most effective forms of it? No. So if you were looking for one product, I would say that's a really hard product to replace, especially at a lower price point. But you could probably get a couple inexpensive products like, let's say, from the Ordinary, and do different combinations to get the results. So, for example, the Ordinary, they have a 10% lactic acid serum with hyaluronic acid that'll make skin smoother, reduce the appearance of fine lines and wrinkles, and also make skin look brighter. And I think it's probably cheaper than like 15 bucks or something like that. There's also, I hate to say it, Drunk Elephant, if you like their products, not much cheaper. I'm actually surprised at how expensive their products have become. I think they have a hydrating serum that's in the light blue cap, which is pretty nice, but you would need that exfoliant point. So then you could either, you know, try the Ordinary product, or Drunk Elephant has a frambose glycolic night serum, which would do some of the exfoliation, but I think that's still pretty expensive. So to get the benefits of this with what you're saying it's doing for your skin, you would need to combine a couple things, and I'd probably go the route of the ordinary.

A

Yeah, I mean, I think the bottom line for me is I think you can get the benefits of this using maybe a couple of products which together would cost less money than this product. On the other hand, if you like it and you got the money, I'm

B

sure it's kind of expensive.

A

Yeah, a little bit.

B

And also, I don't like that it's already like orangey colored.

A

Oh, yeah.

B

It's not the vitamin C decomposing because they're not using active ascorbic acid. I just. I don't like the color. It looks old.

A

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I never like to see Allobarbadensis juice, like, at the second ingredients, because that's obviously a little marketing fluff. All right, Valerie, we have an audio question from Joanna. Joanna called in on our line and left a message. Here it is.

B

Hi, Beauty Brains. This is Joanna from New York. I'm a huge fan of your podcast and appreciate how much you make beauty accessible and help us to learn new things. I found Instagram that Charlotte Parlor, the creator, founder. I'm not quite sure of Do Skin is posting about a new UV filter being approved in America this week. She said was approved by the government. So I'm wondering if you can explain what that means for consumers and give us a little bit of information about if that's a good thing. Hoping it is. And thanks so much. Bye bye.

A

This new sunscreen is causing all of the buzz on Instagram and actually if you follow our. Well on Chemist's Corner I did a little chat, my thoughts on this. But basically this is good, but it's not anything earth shaking for the US market.

B

Yeah. So what happened is the FDA approved a new SPF drug active called Bemitrizinol and I think online Instagram, everyone's celebrating this as a revolutionary breakthrough.

A

Sure.

B

This new technology and at the end of the day, it's an over 20 year old technology that's already been used in Europe, Asia, Australia, et cetera and in the US and by the way, Canada follows the same SPF regulations as the US it's just been being allowed here. It's considered a drug active. And so, you know, they need a lot of data to be put into the approval process for the fda. And I think, you know, are they a little slow? Could they have moved a little faster on this technology? Absolutely. But you know, people always say the US Isn't safe. And I think, you know, this is a measure of safety.

A

Well, it's funny, they say US is unregulated, it's not safe. And yet the US is restricting ingredients that Europe lets people use or Asia lets people use because we're being more safety cautious. So, you know, it's like the regulators here can't win. I mean it is regulated. So you know, my thoughts on this was that same as you, it's like this has been around for a while, so it's not really new. It is nice. It's a nice new thing that formulators that will have in their toolbox. But I will say this, there's only one supplier of this ingredient.

B

Yeah.

A

And so that means not every formulator in the industry will be able to get their hands on it. They're going to make this ingredient more pricey. And so the big companies who make these things are going to get first dibs at it. So they'll get to use it. And, and it's also going to take one year, two years before any new products come out on the market. So this is going to take a long time for consumers to see any of it. I mean, it's good news for cosmetic chemists. So we have a new ingredient to play with. Could create some new formulas and they might feel better. But for consumers, you aren't going to see anything new for a while.

B

Well, here's my take on is a very nice ingredient because it's highly photo stable. Avovenzone is our current, you know, in

A

the air UVA blocker.

B

Yeah, Chemical filter UVA blocker. And this material covers that range, which is really nice. And Ava Benzone is not really photo stable. You have to like stabilize it with other materials. But at the end of the day, you're right, Perry. It's going to take a little bit while for this to come to market. For most brands retailing SPF in the United States because they have to do the formulating the scale up, you know, the, you know, it's not just a product to market. You have to do several production validations before you're even allowed to sell product. Like there's a lot of testing involved. But companies that are huge and already have a global present will just take their eu, Asia or Australian formulas and register them in the US with all the right testing so they'll be faster to market. But at the end of the day, I don't think it solves the problem that consumers aren't wearing sunscreen or don't apply enough sunscreen. And I don't think this technology is gonna force healthy habit compliance with people. I think they're still not gonna wear sunscreen, they're still not gonna apply enough. This isn't gonna be a converting material for people. And so the people that are gonna use it are the sunscreen buffs. The people that do want sunscreen and they wanna wear different options. So I just, I don't think it's going to move the needle anywhere other than giving people more options of a technology that's already 20 years old.

A

So, you know, it's good news. But isn't that amazing news?

B

Yeah. So bottom line, don't expect your sunscreens to change overnight. It'll be a while.

A

Yeah, they won't. All right, we've got a question from Mariko. Rico says niacinamide is in everything. Now if I use a sunscreen with niacinamide and most don't list the percentage and reapply the sunscreen throughout the day, could it cause problems? And if I use a sunscreen with niacinamide, should I skip the evening routine? Products that contain niacinamide, currently I use a serum with 5% niacinamide. Alright, niacinamide is A lot of places, pretty much. Because it's easy to formulate with, right?

B

Yeah, it just dissolves like sugar in water. You know, there are some formula constraints with it. You know, you shouldn't put it with acids or different vitamin Cs, for example, and it also shouldn't be at a low pH. This is because niacinamide contains trace amounts of nicotinic acid. And it's really important that you don't have too much nicotinic acid in the product because you don't want the skin to get irritated. Even at parts per million levels, skin's highly reactive to these minute traces of it. And so the challenge is when you have 5, 10, 15, 20% of niacinamide in a formula, you get intrinsically more exposure to the impurities that are present. And again, because skin is so sensitive to impurities that can be found in niacinamide, you want to be sure that you, you are not exposing yourself to too much from that respect. Now, usually in the personal care side, there are set thresholds of nicotinic acid. For example, some suppliers have limits of 100, some suppliers have limits of 50 parts per million. And when you think of the percentage in final formula, it certainly can add up to the consumer and especially if you're reapplying.

A

But let's be real. Like in most products on the market, companies are putting niacinamide in there at

B

a small amount, probably less than 1%.

A

Right. Just so they get the word niacinamide on there, because they know consumers like it. The newly educated consumers see the word niacinamide and they oh, that's good. But it's really in there just as a claims ingredient. It's not in there at a level where it's going to really do anything. And if it's in there at a low level, then it's not really have the danger of that nicotinic acid either. And so I don't think it's something you need to worry about. Especially nobody's putting it in sunscreen at a really high level, or at least most people aren't, because it's, like I said, it's just kind of a claims ingredient. So I wouldn't worry about it causing problems or interfering with your evening routine of niacinamide.

B

I would also think that in a sunscreen, sunscreens are kind of expensive anyway, and so you don't necessarily want to supercharge it with other active materials. Just like the production process is, you know, inherently expensive because of all the compliance Paperwork and stuff. So I would doubt. I agree. I doubt it's in a sunscreen at a meaningful level. Now, would you notice a difference if you did skip evening routine products that contained it? Probably not, to be honest, but I think if I had to choose a product like, oh, where am I going to get my niacinamide from? I probably would choose the serum with 5% niacinamide versus the sunscreen, provided the serum didn't have some of these other things that can increase nicotinic acid over time in the serum.

A

Yeah. Which, you know, I don't know how much benefit you're getting from the serum either, but that's a different question. How about. Speaking of questions, let's go on to Alex's.

B

I have a keratin treatment and I also do keratin treatments on my sister's hair. Glyoxylic acid based keratin treatments, to be specific. Which is also the kind of. Which is also the star ingredient in this straightener, Sezane, a salon favorite for a lot of practitioners. For reference, I'm not a cosmetologist and I just do these treatments at home. I'm wondering if it's true that keratin treatments, whether formaldehyde or glyx, form a coating on the hair shaft, so it's pointless to use Olaplex number three or K18 on top of the keratin treated hair. Also, if this hasn't already been answered, is it true that you shouldn't use sodium chloride containing shampoos on keratin treated hair? Alex?

A

Ah, keratin treatments. These things are still around, huh?

B

They are and they're very popular.

A

Ah, there you go. So they must do something. So as far as it putting a coating on the hair. Right. Yeah, that's how they work. Right. They create a protein coating on the hair, essentially.

B

Well, specifically with glyoxylic acid, it's similar in shape to formaldehyde and it can penetrate the hair partially, but its primary mechanism is cross linking with itself like a protein would on the outside of the hair fiber.

A

Yeah. The idea here is that if you put keratin on it, and I mean, in the old days you'd put formaldehyde on it and then the formaldehyde would chemically react with the proteins on your hair and the proteins that you're putting in it and so that you're essentially chemically bonding the keratin to your own hair fiber. And there's good evidence that that kind of bonding actually does work.

B

Oh, it does Cross linkers are really great for that, but it's also why they can be a problem because they'll also cross link your DNA, and that's not good.

A

But you know, your hair is not your DNA, so as long as it's not getting into your cells, it's. It's fine.

B

Yeah, but the challenge is it gets volatilized and then you're breathing it in and that type of stuff. But with like glyoxylic acid, they actually don't know the mechanism for how it works. It's postulated it forms a film on the outside of the hair. It's postulated some of it penetrates and cross links different open amine bonds within the hair, which can also change, like its strength properties. But the point is, we don't know. And under high heat, glyoxylic acid can convert to small amounts of formaldehyde. But I think that's very minute. And even the state of Washington has said glyoxylic acid is not considered a formaldehyde donor, even though it does do that, because the quantities are negligible. And anyway, point being, that's how they work. And is it pointless to use a additional treatment on top of the hair? I don't think it's pointless. I think it could be added of value. I think your hair fiber still needs lubrication at the end of the day because this is like a super thin molecular layer.

A

Right.

B

It doesn't replace conditioning requirements for hair, which is essentially what Olaplex number three and K18 do is condition the hair.

A

Yeah, they're conditioners. I don't think you're getting a huge amount of bond building or the kind of reacting with those products. But whether you had the keratin treatment on there or not, I, I think it's going to impact that.

B

Yeah. For the last question, sodium chloride containing shampoos, are they bad? So first of all, even if a shampoo doesn't say sodium chloride on the label, it certainly has sodium chloride in it. It's a sub ingredient in almost every surfactant on the market. Surfactants are used in combinations in products and it's very popular. It's actually hard to formulate a surface sodium chloride free shampoo, even with unintentionally added sodium chloride, because it exists in these surfactant materials.

A

It just is produced during the chemical reactions that create the detergents or surfactants that are used in shampoo products.

B

Exactly. And one time. So my mentor, the person who taught me hair color and I learned a lot about keratin from. He worked at this $4 billion brand in another part of the world, and they had over 100 R&D scientists, and they did, like, a lot of fundamental research on keratin itself. And so I asked him, like, hey, you know, do you still have connections with people that still work there? And he was like, oh, yeah, we actually do a meetup every month and, you know, or every quarter or whatever and, you know, hang out. And I said, can you ask about sodium chloride on hair? Because even sodium and chloride ions are found in your water that's coming out of the tap. So to me, it's a little crazy that people say, oh, don't put sodium chloride on keratin treatments or even it's bad for hair. And so he asked the person who was like, head of hair research at this huge company, like, hey, have you ever heard of this? Because I haven't. And I just imagine them standing in this circle with their wine, you know, at this serve that they go to every quarter touch and, you know, kind of laughing like that at, like, the trivialness of the question, because they really were like, yeah, that's not a thing. Like, there's no negative interactions with sodium and chloride in the hair.

A

Somehow this idea of sodium chloride in shampoos and hair products has. Has taken hold, and consumers get this idea that there's something bad about it, and they've been told somewhere that that's the case. And this sort of harkens back to Garrett's point about consumers being more educated and, like, they're more miseducated if you ask me about products. And this sodium chloride is a perfect example. It's. No, it's not going to have a negative impact on your keratin hair treated or your treated hair. It's just an ingredient that is just in there.

B

Exactly.

A

Speaking of in there, you gotta get

B

to your flight, Perry.

A

I do, and I hear the music there.

B

And Mr. Cosmetic Chemist is almost here and he's gonna be mad if I'm still recording, so.

A

Oh, my.

B

We gotta go. Thanks for listening, everyone. If you get a chance, head over to Apple Podcasts or Spotify and leave us a review that will help other people find the show and ensure we have a full docket of beauty questions to answer.

A

Speaking of questions, if you have one, you can just record on your smartphone and email it to thebeautybrainsmail.com or you can use the form in the show notes, or you can call us at 1-872-216-1856 and leave a message. Hey, you know what else? The Beauty Brains are on Patreon. If you appreciate the fact that we don't have sponsors and we don't do sponsored posts and such, that's only because we are supported by our patrons. If you like what we do and want to keep the show that way, head over to patreon.com thebeautybrains and subscribe. Subscribe at any level. You also get your questions higher priority to answer. We answer your comments and you get a transcript of every show.

B

Don't forget to follow us on our various social media accounts. On Instagram, we're at The Beauty Brains 2018 on X, we're at the Beauty Brains on Blue Sky Worth the Beauty Brains. We have a Facebook page, a tick tock which Perry's going to do some posts on and a YouTube channel.

A

Valerie, I actually did do a couple of posts on TikTok and on YouTube. So go, go check those out. We are getting into it.

B

Well, Perry's getting into it. I don't have TikTok, the icon of the app. You know, I had like a little TIA in my eye, you know, a handful of years ago and I can't look at things like that anyway, so just because of the app I could not have the app logo. I can't have it.

A

Well, it's probably better for you to not. Anyway.

B

Well, thanks again for listening everyone. And remember, be brainy about your beauty.

A

Thanks everyone. Kittens.