A

This is the Baymont Podcast with Marty Solomon. I'm his co host, Brent Billings. Today I'm with Elle Grover Fricks, to get the big picture about our holy book.

B

I'm so excited.

A

Elle, you have promised me immediately before we started here that this is going to be your weirdest episode ever.

B

Here's the thing. Normally if it's just me presenting on something, I feel a healthy amount of pressure to like, be well rounded, to give like a straightforward take. And maybe it's got a weird little appendage on it, but like, everybody can grab hold of this thing. Yeah, not this time. This time there's two other episodes on the text that you can go listen to, which I'm pretty sure came out before my episode.

A

Yes.

B

And so you're already equipped, dear listener, with what's reasonable. And so I'm here to call us, to just entertain the possibility, just entertain the provocation that it might just be something a little bit bigger or a little bit different or wilder than we usually conceive. That's all.

A

Okay, that sounds great.

B

Well, good, because you have to listen to it. Nobody else does, I guess, our audio engineer. But we're going to start, start off by talking about this concept called spiral dynamics. Have you heard of spiral dynamics, Brent?

A

I have.

B

Fantastic. If folks haven't, it's a way of organizing philosophies, worldviews, communities, value systems, social zeitgeists. The people who came up with it, their names are Cal and Beck. Beck used this to work with Nelson Mandela and work on Palestinian denion and Israeli peace. Did a bunch of interesting good work with this concept. I do not endorse all of the ways that this concept is used in the world. Brought into like business world a lot. I don't know about any of that. I only know about it in my particular context. So that's the disclaimer.

A

Just a note. Just because I have heard of it doesn't mean I could have explained any of it like you just did. So just, just to be clear.

B

Perfect. Okay. Well, it was part of my grad work, so I'm ready to rock and rumble here.

A

Beautiful.

B

So the spiral dynamics is organized. I'm making a spiral with my finger, but it moves through these different stages which don't have to be chronological, and you can bounce back and forth between them. So don't get too worked up about the chronology. But they're organized by colors. So in this idea, in this postulation, in this theory, civilization starts with their values, their cultural understanding, their religion. In beige the color is beige. And that's all about like, the world is dangerous, trying to survive. If we have religion, it's about like, please let it rain, that kind of thing. We're hunting, we're gathering, we're hoping for our next meal. That's beige. You go up into purple. Purple is like the world of magic. So you've got like all sorts of mystical, supernatural stuff. You've got like deities roaming the earth, encountering humans. We think a lot about like mythological literature. If it's that particular stage or era or color, whatever, then there is a red. Red is all about domination, dominion, control, conquering. It's about might makes right. Self is the most important thing. With all of these colors, you're flip flopping between individualism and communalism, by the way. So people in power deserve to be so. The downtrodden deserve to be so. That's all. A red ethos pop up into blue. Blue is about like, no, it's not about the individual, it's about the community. And the self therefore deserves to be sacrificed for the sake of the community. Blue is about like, there is a higher power, there is a higher authority. Everything is structured. There is capital T, truth. And even if it means sacrificing yourself, you need to follow these capital T truths, this way of being, and you need to trust the highest authority. If you go on to orange, orange is our enlightenment zone. It's flipping back into the individual and it's about like productivity and rationale and logic and intellectualism and material reality. So in this era, religion is about like, often religion gives us ethical guidelines, right? It can make us more efficient and makes us better. But what's important is what we're producing, what we're creating. We keep going from orange, you get to green. Green is about widening the aperture. So we're going back to communalism. We're saying, hey, productivity can actually be an addiction. And can we look at like the larger world? Can we pay attention to the needs of not just our community, but all communities. I always think of like the posters that I grew up with in school. It's like the earth and outer space. And then there's all these hands that are all these different colors, like wrapping around, you know what kind of art I'm talking about? Yeah, that's very green. Everybody holding hands out in outer space. And everybody's from a different like culture and race. Yay. Hey, I'm at a rain. That was not intentional. It's not in my outline. Spirit is here. Yeah, giving me dumb rhymes okay, we got yellow. We're getting to word the top here. But yellow flips back to individual. And it's post modernity. It's about personal freedom. Whatever suits you, whatever your personal truth is. That's all the language of yellow. We're seeking out knowledge for ourselves. And there can be this like suspicion of community, right? Is community trying to control me? Maybe I'm only safe with other people who are skeptics, like I am, right? That's all the language of the yellow zone in spiral dynamics. And then at the very top we've got turquoise. Turquoise is about the inter being of all things. There's no individual, there's only communal. This is like the Buddhist monk who sets themselves on fire in order to protest something. Because they're like, I am the jungle that you're burning down, right? But they're in the steps of the White House or whatever. That's super turquoise. Like I'm a part of you and you're a part of me and we're a part of all time and the earth and blah blah, blah, blah, blah. So that's the general stages in this concept of spiral dynamics. And I think it is helpful to notice like, oh, which color did I grow up in and what is the community that I'm in now? And what was that transition like? Because sometimes, like the story of people having these great apocalypses in the traditional meaning of the word, the like big revelations is when they're moving from one color to another. So like, if I think about the zeitgeist right now, I have no idea what will be happening when this episode comes out. But there's a lot of people moving out of red. Especially as I understand, according to the reports, like Gen Z men moving from red into blue, being like, maybe being the alpha top dog doesn't feel good, right? Maybe I actually want a structure. Maybe I do want a leader, somebody who's in control for me to trust and I have a slot that they fit into. And so Catholicism and orthodox groups, Christianity are fastest growing religions at the moment. Christian religions, Christian denominations, I don't know. But then also if you have like deconstructor friends, or maybe you are this person who describes like, oh man, I used to be part of a cult and I have a lot of thoughts about that from my psych background and sociological background. There's a specific meaning of cult and I think it gets overused. But what they usually mean is they were part of a blue community that had like, this is the leader, this is the teacher, this is the person we trust and we do what this person says and there are truths and you should be sacrificed in order to, like, fit into those truths. And then people who leave that community are moving into orange and being like, wait, maybe I do matter. Like, this part of me was getting squashed down. Or like, I saw that there was corruption in leadership and people didn't want to listen to me because they said, you just need to trust the authority. And so they move into orange and are like, my brain matters what I see, matter what I think matters. Another big switch, right? Going from orange to green. People realizing like, oh, I am enough. God says I'm good. God says I'm enough. I don't have to be all about earning my own salvation, my own productivity. Right. Green to yellow is also a frequent deconstructor theme about. I used to be all about, like, my community and we all believe the same things and we are. We're all going the same direction. But then there is this, like, neglect that I couldn't get out of my brain about what is this? Nobody could answer me. And so I set off on my own because I want to try to figure stuff out. Those feel like big moments because they're big worldview shifts, big philosophy value system shifts. And so really big moments in both society and people's lives. But why am I talking about all of this, Brent? What does this have to do with the Bible, with the text we're supposed to be talking about? Pillars.

A

Well, before we get into that, I'll just say, as you were explaining it all, I think I have heard this framework in some context. I don't know that I necessarily. Maybe it wasn't even presented as a spiral dynamics thing. Maybe it was just like a independent sounding idea that was used for some other purpose. I don't know, but it sounded familiar as you're going through all the colors and stages and whatever. So for somebody who wants to look at all of the stages and think about where, where they grew up and where they are now and where, you know, whatever. Is there like a good, like, kind of simple website or resource that you would recommend for people to be able to look at that and think through it?

B

Oh, boy. Not necessarily. My familiarity with it showed up when I was in grad school again. And one of my big projects I did in grad school was talking about some practices and early Judaism and early Christianity and talking about which part, which stage they fit into. So I was arguing in like super academic land, which I wouldn't really suggest for other People, Unless that sounds like a good time. So I have like the original books, Beck and Cowan, but if you just like do a Google image search of Spiral dynamics again, you'll get like a bajillion different images from all sorts of different places. But you can like follow what I'm saying looking at those and sometimes they get a little bit like twisted from the original source material. So if you're like, wait, that doesn't make sense. It's okay. But if you want to look at a visual, there's a bunch of visuals, just a few image search Spiral dynamics.

A

I'll see if I can find one that I like and put it in the show notes. But yes, people can do their own Google search if they want to find a different graphic or whatever.

B

Yeah, run it by me first, Brent, because I do. I know some of them and some of them are bad.

A

Okay, I will put in the show notes a graphic that I like and that Elle approves.

B

Yes. Stamp. Stamp of approval.

A

Okay, so yes. What about the text? Why are we here?

B

Back to the text. Why are we here? Why am I talking about this? Well, I'm going to make the claim this morning or whenever you're listening to this, that I believe that the Bible is a purple book about purple things calling us to live purple lives. And I know immediately we might start thinking about like magic, wandering deities. What are you talking about? And we'll get into the nitty gritty in just a sec. But the barest picture. What does it mean to be a Christian? These are the things that you probably believe. I used to talk to Josh about this all the time, by the way. We believe as Christians that are most like basic foundational level, that there is a divine being who is omniscient, omnipresent and sovereign. That divine being made every star whirling up through the space time and also every cell in our bodies, every neuron in our brains shooting electricity around our flesh selves. And it's not just like a lot of gods, right? Because that almost makes more logical sense. I don't know. To me anyway, like, yeah, the star God. And then like whatever. No, it's just one God. And that God chooses to be good. The God who designed all of time also chooses to know me, El Grover Fricks and all my thoughts and chooses to love me and not just like floating out there beneficent in space, but also listen to all my prayers and not just when I like sacrifice something really good and cool and gets God's attention and he's like, oh, what's that down there on earth all the time? That's insane. That's not like a rational post enlightenment idea. That's only the beginning and it's already absolutely radical upside down. We believe what this God sent his son? Don't even get me started on the Trinity. Three in one. Yeah. It's so simple. Explain it. This doesn't feel simple to me. The sun is the exact radiance of the being of God. But somehow God's like not shape shifting. It is God. He is the one, he is the three all at the same time. But anyway, there's this man named Yeshu who lives, he does a bajillion supernatural things while he's on earth along with his teachings. He gets killed by the state and then he comes back to life. That's again baseline Christianity. We believe in the resurrected Christ. After he came back to life, he floats into heaven at some point. I've got a lot of questions about the ascension. And then after that he sends his breath down like fire to quote clothe us in Dunamis in power and authority. Romans 8 says that the spirit who dwells in us is the spirit of the power of the resurrection. So we have the power of the resurrection inside of us. This is nuts. Just checking back in. Ephesians says that we have specific callings and specific gifts to do specific jobs to put the world back together. There's also an afterlife swirled in there. The this is just again the most fairest minimal approach to like what is Christianity? Most minimalist approach. Before we get into things that somebody could be like, well that seems kind of cultural. What we believe just on the surface is not an enlightenment fitting thing. The things that we believe are absolutely nuts. And if we don't remember that, we probably need to get out more. We need to talk to nonbelievers more to be like, oh yeah, yeah, my God came back from the dead. Sure he did. Uh huh, yeah, that's normal.

A

I like your little survey of the biblical text and like stepping back and thinking about like how, how really wild it is some of the things that we believe, like you try to look at them from this other side of like this intellectual scientific way. It's like no, that's just like you can't explain any of that. But that's, that's the foundation of our belief. And so where does that fit into this framework? In a different spot, in the purple spot.

B

Right. Like God gave us our intellects and everything. I'm not anti intellect, but especially like the reformed theology corner I come from, we think of ourselves as, like, the most rational. It's like, what about. What about this does not require faith. It requires faith. That's the whole thing. And we try to boil it down and pretend that it doesn't require faith, that it's all just very straightforward. But let's get into what's actually in the Bible here. And again, this is where people can start to be like, well, maybe that's a reflection of the people who read it at the time that they read it. Okay, fine. I don't want to be the arbiter, though. Like, maybe you have the skill set. Maybe you feel confident enough to be like, thumbs up, thumbs down, thumbs up, thumbs down. I choose in my particular relationship with God not to do that maybe 90% of the time, because I want to encounter these things with faith and to say, hey, can I let this be something that can fundamentally shake me to my core and shake up my worldview that, like, the material world is all that exists, the end. Because that's the world we swim in. So here's just a brief little list. And that's not to say that people who don't believe in these things don't have faith, by the way. That's not what I'm trying to say. Here's our brief little list of wild things that are in the Bible from the front to the back. We got blessings. We got curses. Page three, page one, actually. We've got blessings and curses. We've got dreams from God whole the way through. We do have roaming spirits, right? We have angels blocking talking donkeys on the road, right? We've got Satan, the devil, demons. They show up 116 times in the text. Paul even says, our battle is not with flesh and blood, with spiritual forces, right? Pick your translation, whatever, fine. We've got temples and mountaintops and sacred groves which God really seems to care about not being there, which would be weird if none of it mattered. We've got holy places and unholy places, clean things and unclean things. We've got sacred holidays. We've got sacred rites of passage. We've got baptism. We've got circumcision. We've got the betrothal thing at Sinai. We've got seasonal customs, right? Center of the Genesis, creation chiasm is signs and seasons from celestial bodies. One of our first commandments in the legal literature is to keep the new moon. Keep the new moon. We have people having mystical experiences from, again, the very first story to the last story in the whole book. Visions, hearing from God, seeing God, commanding angels. That's in Jacob's story. Knock my socks off. Like, what is happening? We've got an angel in a bush that's on fire, but it's not really on fire. And it might be God, but it might be an angel. Tough to say. We've got countless stories of God unleashing psychic damage on armies. We've got pillars of fire, we've got pillars of cloud, right? None of this fits our happy little post enlightenment worldview. And also our egos about how rational and reasonable we are. And some of that is a reaction from the world, right, of like, I can't believe that you guys think these things. And so we write good books like Reason for God or whatever. I'm not trying to take potshots at that part of Christian culture. But we end up making these little edits along the way to try to support like, no, I'm not one of those people. Maybe like the supernatural darkness in this text, maybe it was a volcano or maybe there was like an eclipse and we look up the stats about that. Maybe like, did Jesus really heal that person or were they just like brought into wellness because he, like paid attention to them? Maybe that's super life giving practice for some people. It is not for me. I could not care less about whether God used a volcano or not to bring a supernatural darkness. Because yes, if we are willing to say the God of all creation gives me breath and knows my thoughts and will judge the living and the dead. But don't worry, I'm not one of those Christians who believes in supernatural darkness or that God talks to them or that their dreams mean something. Right? We like put this really big chasm. Like, I'm not like those people. But yet 90% of the things that we're like, yeah, core tenants of the faith are absolutely out of the rocking chair, which is not also to try to dunk on specifically cessationists or anybody. It's like, you guys, let's just set down our. Let's stop trying to be taken more seriously by the world when the world isn't going to accept the number one thing that we think, which is that there is a God and that he came back from the dead right after he let himself be killed so we can set down those postures once again. You might say, why are we talking about this, Elle? Yes, this is all wild. So where am I going with all this? I've been ranting, I've been raving, I've been blowing off steam. Probably not a great idea, but why am I bringing this up? Well, we can and we do interact with this book, our text, through all of these different spiral layers. So I think it's okay and good to interact with the text through the blue lens. Right. Bible can teach us what capital T truth is. And the truth of this world is constantly changing. Everything's upside down all the time. We thought this person was this and then it's this. We thought this situation was this and then it's this. Bible doesn't do that. If that's life giving, that's how you want to interact with the Bible. Amazing. Good. From an orange perspective, right? About like me and my thing that I'm doing in the world. This is 100% true. One of the reasons that I'm committed to doing my spiritual disciplines in the morning, by the way, is because it's good for me and helpful for everything I need to do throughout the day. Whether that's being a parent or doing creative work or being a good spouse. Whatever it is does not matter. I will do a bajillion times better if I have engaged in my spiritual practices in the text first. So if that's how we want to connect with the Bible, Awesome. Green lens. This book reminds me that it's not all about me. It's not about me living for myself, punching in my time clock. It's not just about me becoming the most self actualized I can possibly be and building my little empire. The book reminds me that the whole time I'm supposed to be thinking about putting the world back together. Being loved by God, loving God, loving his people, helping mending the brokenness in the world and my community. Amen. Good. That's great. Yellow. I can even show up to the Bible saying, hey, I have freedom, I have free will. I'm going to decide what to put my trust in. His belief is a choice. Am I going to choose to lean in to this thing? When tragedy comes my way, when success comes my way, what are those things that I'm going to put my trust and my belief in, I can be intentional about that. And if we want to do that using the Bible, amen. Amazing. Let's make the Bible our compass. Not what random like hurt people on TikTok are saying, love that. Finally. Turquoise, right? We're part of the body of Christ. And if coming back to the text makes us remember that and feel that we are just the thumbprint of God, the vessel of the most high, who we are doesn't even really matter because we're part of something so much bigger. We aren't really anything. We're just how God is moving, and maybe he'll choose to move through us. We can use the book to tap into that turquoise zone that doesn't care so much about artifice and all the other details. That's beautiful, but I want to be the one voice on the podcast in this little pillar pericope that we're building who says, hey, can we tap into this book in a purple way? Because it is a purple book calling us in Romans 8. To Live Purple, right? To live by the spirit. So however you want to interpret that at least means not living in the material. When everything around us is like, how do you start your day in the news? That's material, right? In all these other things, I'll circle back to that. If you're not a nerd, plug your ears for the next 30 seconds. I don't want to hear it from you non nerds. Okay, nerds, assemble.

A

I'm here. I'm ready.

B

Are you a nerd? Brent won't play D and D with us, you guys.

A

Well, I'm not that kind of nerd, but.

B

Okay, well, this is for that kind of nerd. Okay, this is not for audio, nerds. Here we are, nerds. If we're going to take these epistles seriously, if we're going to take the teachings of our faith seriously, we have a patron God who has given us certain gifts, and we are called to walk a certain way with those gifts and to use them towards certain ends. We're called to listen to his voice either via just this tome or through further revelation, depending on what flavor you are. All of that feels like super boring, regular Sunday school things. Spiritual gifts. Yeah. Body of Christ. Got it, got it, got it. Cool, cool, cool. Turn off the Sunday school brain for a second. Stick that brain in the corner. Open up your fiction brain. What does all of that sound like? A patron deity who graces us gifts, who calls us to walk in a certain way. That's different than the rest of the world. We're invited to use them towards certain ends. Maybe we think they're supernatural, maybe we don't, but they're from God, and we get to listen to his voice. Voice either in a sacred tome or also in the world around us. That is crazy. We are. If you're not a nerd, turn it off. We are warlocks. We're clerics. We are paladins. We have these, like. We have these gifts. That's who we Are we have this identity through our patron deity. The thing that we believe is crazy in the book that we believe is phenomenally awesome. The rails and is calling us to like, believe in something so much bigger than just the mundane. Well, I'm logical and so yes, it makes sense to me that there's an afterlife. Like, that's great. God did give us logic. But like, look at what the book is telling us about who God is and who we are with fresh eyes. In my opinion. Now we're really in Hot Takes Land. In my opinion. The reason that for most of us, many of us will say that we engage with fantasy, literature or fiction of some kind in whatever medium, movies, audio, D and D, whatever it might be, is because it's calling to something within us, something that we know is true. These different archetypes about like the ancient mystic wizard who's in the cave and like gives sacred knowledge. That's like, yeah, cool, Obi Wan. That feels good to us. Because there's something in the, in my opinion which is true, that some of us are called to be these sages who have this wisdom from God that we dispense to the people who are able to find us hiding out in our cave. Right. That all of these things ring genuine in our souls because it's a reflection of a greater reality which is real. And if that is the case and you're able to get on this train with me, how is it possible that we wake up in the morning and look at our Bible app and then look at the news app or look at social media and pick anything else other than this tome, our sacred text that's gifted to us, the bridegroom to the bride, letters and poetry and stories of other people with the same calling that we have to bless all nations is been memorialized for us, miraculously kept through the ages for us to engage with and to hear from God. And we're like, yeah, but like, what if I get to hear about like a new fitness thing or like a new way of organizing or like a new news thing or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, sports thing, I don't care, whatever it is, whatever on your algorithm. That's all designed to capture our attention. And so this isn't supposed to be like shame and condemnation, but if we can remember the absolute out of this world, sacredness, differentness, holiness, power of this book, which describes itself as living and breathing two edged sword, then maybe it would be easier to wake up and do our spiritual disciplines in the morning to make room for God to carve out that space for the spirit to work with us and make us look more like him.

A

My algorithm recently has been giving me a lot of, like, home improvement and like, like woodworking craftsmanship tips and all this stuff. Yeah, and I love watching this kind of stuff. I know, but who was the original fine craftsman but Bezalel, who was filled with the spirit of God to do that work?

B

You tell him, Brent.

A

And so it all comes back together somehow.

B

It sure does. But the story of that part of social media is like. Like, Eden can be built by your own hands. Just pick up these tools, just buy this new drill, and you can make a better Eden. You don't even need community. You just need a discount code.

A

It's not even that kind of stuff. I don't think that it's trying to sell me something necessarily, but I think the lie of the social media thing is like, everybody's attention spans are so short that they feel like I have to cram it all in. And so the lie is like, oh, it's. It's all so simple and it all happens so fast. It's like, no, this takes years of work and practice and skill building, and it doesn't actually happen in 10 seconds. But I feel like I could make it happen if I just watch one more of these videos.

B

Right, but there's still this underlying drive, though, that, like, why. Why does that genre of content exist other than to, like, keep us hooked on the platform so that we see more ads? It's still trying to tell us, hey, if you keep up with enough news, you'll know what's going on and you'll be prepared and you'll be able to create your own little Eden where you know everything that's right and you know everybody who's wrong. And you can like to claim that confidently. Home improvement stuff is saying, like, wouldn't your life just be a little bit better if you just did this one project? That's when happiness and shalom would really sprout in your household. Look, look, look. Just put Biltons. That's all you need. Think about how much better your marriage would be with Biltons.

A

I think that's actually true, though.

B

No, Brin.

A

Oh, sorry, sorry.

B

You could be in a cave. You could be persecuted by the Roman Empire, and your marriage with Maggie would be the. Could be with the power of the spirit. Better than the most rich, wealthy, most built in person who's ever lived. Right. The emperors of this world could have nothing on your marriage, even when you have nothing and they have everything. If you have the power of the spirit, right. That's the thing that's actually life giving. Which again, says in his book that there's this river of life and when we are in it, river of life comes out of us. Right. And that's what this book is about. And that's what spiritual disciplines are about. The power of this thing has the ability to be so much more important than any of the other stuff that we're grappling with, any of the other things that come across our plate. So that even in the midst of the most difficult, painful, suffering, persecution, loss, through all of that, we can still Isaiah 49, be like as sheep in the barest of places, yet never be hungry nor thirsty in the heights, not experiencing the heat of the sun, not being struck, because we have the resilience of this power, of this joy that can be found in our God and through his Word.

A

Okay, so I don't actually know, and I really hate to think about when I started reading the Unseen Realm because it's been a while. I've been very slowly working my way through this book. A lot of Bama listeners are very enthusiastic about Heiser and his work and awesome. I think you don't have to read very much of it to understand why those two things would overlap. And I find it fascinating. I feel like as I'm reading it, that my younger self would have been way more interested in it than I am now. I don't feel the. I'm just. I'm going to verbally process and you can tell me, like, where this fits into our framework that we're doing today.

B

Sure.

A

But I struggle reading it because I feel like there's a certain set of assumptions that you have to make and a certain set of things that you just. You can't actually know. You have to take it on faith. And I don't know what it boils down to is, I don't know, are we actually interpreting this the right way? Because if you take out one or two of those assumptions, the whole thing kind of falls apart. But then on the other side, it's like, well, if we actually believe that all scripture is God breathed and useful for all these different things, and we actually mean all Scripture, then it's like, why are these details in there? And so shouldn't we be trying to understand the things that are being revealed to us in this way? If we do actually believe that this is a holy, sacred text delivered to us from God, shouldn't we take it more seriously? So I don't know. I think the book is incredibly thorough. You can't deny the depth of his work. I feel like the book itself is already incredibly thorough. And just like every other footnote, he's like, yeah, there's more on this. Just go to the companion website. I didn't want to go into this rabbit trail. So go to the companion website. There's just so much there. Incredibly thorough. I feel like I should maybe be a little more excited about it than I am. But I have this like, ah. But I can't actually know that. So I don't know if I should invest in this idea. So I don't know what is my problem? What's my mental block here?

B

I have three things. Three responses. One is, I'm pretty sure I haven't totally finished Unseen Realm either. I ran into it because I was doing my regular thing and a grad student in my ministry came up to me and was like, you were like, like quoting Heizer, right? I'm like, who's that? So I had no idea what she was talking about, ordered it, and if I had the time to become a YouTuber boy, I would be like, here's a whole series we're going to do chapter by chapter, baby. Because I have thoughts, but that's not what this is. The second thing that comes to mind as you're talking is even though I'm making this argument for the purple lens, because I think it's under treated and I think it's pretty essential, I wouldn't want listeners to come away with being like, all of the other lenses are bad, like my church is bad because it's green or whatever, please don't do that. That's not my goal. And so if where you are engaging with the text is really life giving to you and you're in blue and you're like, God is the king and I take my orders from the Lord and I'm going to walk by these precepts and I'm going to die along the way and it's going to be beautiful. And you cannot make me switch out these tenants that are soaked in the glory and richness of tradition from my bleeding hands. Like, that's gorgeous. I'm not trying to get people to stop that. And so if you're out there like Brent and you're like, I don't know, it doesn't feel compelling. Whatever, I don't really have a take either way. That's okay. Obviously, like, who cares what I think about your spiritual walk? Just period. But Also, it's okay if the way you are engaging with the text is life giving. If it's not, if you're feeling bored by, like, the same kind of content from the same kind of angle, and it's showing you all these different things. And, yeah, you can, like, put them down on the whiteboard, but it's not, like, lighting up your soul. We want longevity, right? Faithfulness throughout life. So try a different lens if that's you. If you're like, oh, yeah, you're opening your devotions and you're halfway through reading in the year plan, but it hasn't felt fruitful to you in months, switch it up. I feel like Marty's going to Kool Aid, man through my curtains at switching up spiritual disciplines partway through the year. But that could just be my story about Marty. Could be totally, totally not true. Who knows? But the last thing that I would drill into. Drill into is too aggressive. The last thing that I would want to zoom in on a little bit is something that you said about faith. Like, I can't know for sure whether that's true. And a lot of the stuff that we do at Bayma, like, tickles that part of our brain, which, again, I think is good to be like, boy. There's this text that I've never understood before, and it seems, like, so weird. Why is Jesus teaching that? And then we go on a little exploration of intertextuality. We're like, oh, man, he's actually talking about this. And the Pharisees were thinking about this, but Jesus was talking about this. And it all comes together. Yeah. Oh, that's so good. And it fills that, like, knowing part. But we're called to yada. But then we're also dressed to Betach. We're called to Betach. I messed that up. We're called to yada. We're called to know. We're called to experientially know, by the way. Not just, like, no facts, but to know God. But we're also called the Betach, to trust. And it is my conviction that if we are living just based in, like, things, we can know for sure that we are missing out on part of the thing that God is calling us to. Especially because, like, what can we know? What can we know for sure? I feel like I can say with my full chest, like, God is God. Jesus was God and is God and was raised from the dead, right? Can I know that? Is it true that I know that? Or have I chosen to trust to put my faith beyond what I can say for sure, because I'm not Miriam the Mikdal. I was not there at the tomb. I did not see the risen Jesus. I'm not Thomas. I didn't poke his hands. So I'm choosing to put my trust and belief in something. And, yeah, if you haven't had a lot of, like, life experiences of supernatural stuff, it can feel weird to be like, there's supernatural stuff in the Bible. I don't know about that. A lot of people do have supernatural experiences. Even people who are Christians but don't have a category for it. People who aren't Christians be like, I work in a hospital and I saw. Blah, blah, blah. Like, the more you ask people, you'll find crazier and crazier stories when you stop and ask those specific questions and if people feel safe to share them. So I think Reid once said in a sermon that he feels like a lot of times in Christianity, watch me, by the way, like, butcher his intention or something. So I'm sorry, Reid, he doesn't listen to my episodes. It'll be fine.

A

That's not true.

B

He said beautifully that he feels like often in Christianity, we're living inside of the house and if these other things are true, whatever those might be. And here you can insert supernatural stuff or Michael Heiser stuff or just like, I don't know, maybe you do struggle to believe in the resurrection. I'm not you. I don't know what you're struggling with. But he feels like that there's all these things outside the house going by the windows, and that if he were to venture into faith, venture into trust, belief, beyond the things that he, like, feels like he knows, certain with certainty that it would be like going into a whole new world that he's never. Or that he hasn't walked in in a while. And again, that was a picture from a very specific sermon that he was giving about a specific thing. It's not that Reid would argue with me about everything in this episode. You can let Reid speak for himself. But the picture to me is really helpful because we all have something that's, like, beyond the pale. Even if you're like the wildest of charismatics, you probably still have something that feels like, oh, can that be true? And so maybe we can just like, stick our heads out the window a little bit bit, you know, hey, what would it look like from out here? Maybe you are absolutely think that charismatics are. They've departed from the word of the Lord and that they are addicted to experience or whatever. Just stick Your head out that window for a second with some story from the text, something that feels challenging to you. Maybe it's a talking donkey. Maybe it's Ephesians 6. Maybe it's, you know, people having dreams that God is speaking to them. And stick your head out of the window, ask God about it. Let yourself wrestle. Oh, spoilers for further pillars. Let yourself wrestle with that just for a little bit and see what happens. See if your worldview shifts even just a little bit. And maybe it won't. And maybe you'll be like, no, I'm right and everybody else is wrong. Bully for you. That's great. But if we keep growing in our faith, some risk taking, some things that we aren't totally sure about will come to pass. And I think that in that space, in that. Yes, in that chutzpah, that's where God likes to meet us and likes to do some thing. Something's unexpected.

A

Is the spiral aspect of spiral dynamics just that there's not a clean break between all these different lenses? That it's kind of a slow transition or like a journey between the lenses?

B

Probably it's been a while. It's been a while since grad school, which is weird. Time is weird.

A

Yeah. And so maybe you have your foot in a couple of different lenses. You're like, wow, I do believe this. But then also I think about this in this other way and I kind of feel like that's where I'm at. I don't know how many levels you're allowed to be in in the same

B

time, but I would like to have discussion about that one on one with you, about what makes you feel that. Because that isn't usually a thing. Like, I have a little bit of turquoise, but I'm also red. Like, those things don't go together.

A

Yeah, Well, I just mean, like, I've had some more purplish spiritual type experiences, dream type things and whatever. But then I also am like, my. I can't actually know that. So I don't know if I should. Whatever.

B

We gotta talk about belief.

A

Okay. Yeah. All right.

B

Belief. Get back to belief.

A

I don't have any problem believing the core tenets, you know, that God exists. I don't have any problem with that. I don't have any problem believing in the resurrection. I don't have, like, all those things are like, like, so solid.

B

Yeah.

A

So it's like, why are those so solid? But then I'm so skeptical of these other aspects that are in the text.

B

They sure are. I mean, some of it I think is preaching. Like a ton of the wild stuff that happens is in the narrative portions of Tanakh and then the book of Acts. So if all we ever hear preached is like the Gospels and the epistles and we skip Acts, we skip Revelation or whatever. Revelation is different horse of a different color. Revelation joke. There's lots of horses of different colors, but yeah, that's boy. And then the world that we live in is like, no material is all that's here. Unless you get into certain communities that are like, not that you have to really seek them out to find people who are like, no, man. Write down your dreams. And often they're not Christian, which doesn't help anything thing.

A

Okay, well, yeah, I guess spoilers, as you said, for an upcoming pillar, but probably have a lot of wrestling to do.

B

Yay. As should we all. If you've landed, we've done it wrong, but hopefully we can come to the text. Practicing a new lens and maybe it's not purple and you're like, no thanks, Elle, but aware of these different colors, you can say, oh, I've really been approaching it from blue. What if I approached it from yellow or whatever. Hopefully there's. There's a different way to encounter the text that's life giving to you. And just maybe a bunch of nerds out there punching the air that they have a divine conduit to their patron deity, which I think is biblically accurate.

A

Okay, well, we will leave it at that. The tome at the center of the spiral, as you've titled this episode. I just have to say that in the episode because I love it so much. But folks can find find whatever we come up with for a spiral dynamics graphic in their show notes, in their podcast app or@baymont discipleship.com you can use the contact page if you want to let us know what color you feel like you're living in. And yeah, I'll just say that everything we do is made possible by listeners like you who support our work. Thank you for supporting us as we go through this slower pace of session 10. We just really appreciate you giving us the space as we remember Josh and prepare for the things that God has ahead of us. So thank you for joining us in the Bama podcast. Thank you for wrestling with us. We'll talk to you again soon.

B

Bye. Here's my thing for lots of people have what you're talking about, that God gives them the gift of a supernatural experience that they can't really wrap into the rest of their worldviews. Sometimes it's Like, I was in the hospital and I didn't know whether my baby was gonna breathe after they were just born. And in that moment I heard God speak to me and say, it's gonna be okay. And people create a little box in their corner to be like, I can understand they're okay with God breaking through into the material world in supernatural ways. In the moments where it seems like everything's already nuts. Like, nobody would be like, nuh. If someone's like, I was in a car crash and I was whirling through the air, about to land in the river and I felt a hand on my shoulder say, it's going to be okay. Nobody would be like, repent. Total revelation is complete in the scripture, right. We create these pockets of like, oh, God can speak to you if things are like really dire or for you if you need to understand who your wife is. Sure. So the real thing is, if we do believe that, can we take that and fold that into the back of our worldview and then think, maybe that wasn't just for a one time thing. Maybe the life that God calls us to is full of richness, of encountering him not just in the hospital or in the car crash. You can put that in the post credits.

A

I mean, maybe this is post credits, maybe not. You can tell me after I say it. I've had the way you're saying that sounds familiar. Because I've had those moments where it's like, oh, this is clearly God speaking in some way. In one instance, actually two separate dreams. Not that I was necessarily like trying to Gideon it, but like the first dream happened and like I felt so strongly that it was God speaking to me and telling me something, but I was like, okay, but. But then what? Like, if not that, then what am I supposed to be doing?

B

Yeah.

A

And after I. It was like the dream and it's like, not this. And then a day or two later, an opportunity that I didn't know was gonna happen presented itself. And I was like, okay, but I'm not gonna take that opportunity. Cause God said no. And then that next night, then I got the other dream that's like, here's

B

where you're supposed to go, amazing, perfect.

A

Like that's the only time that's happened to me in a dream. In that sense, I don't have a whole lot of dreams anyway. But even when I do have dreams, I don't typically feel like it's God speaking to me, but that, like, I was so confident that God was speaking to me in moment that And I don't necessarily want to encapsulate it or limit it to that. I just think that's how God needed to speak to me in that moment.

B

Right. Well, even the most strapped down version of cessationism still makes room because whenever they're talking about the stuff that the spirit does, which is very limited in cessationist world, or pretty limited anyway, one of the big things is conviction that the Spirit is the way. Because of total depravity, we have to have a supernatural way for God to tell us that we are in sin and we're sinners. And so if we think about the revealed word versus continuing revelation or continuing supernatural things or whatever, that is a supernatural thing. If I'm walking along and I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm in sin or I'm a sinner or I need to repent of something, that's the Spirit speaking to me. That's a supernatural occurrence. Even in reformed cessationist world, that's a part of the normal working of the spirit. So why would it be. That's all I'm asking. Why would it be that the Spirit does speak to us, and not just at the moment of conversion, but throughout the Christian life of sanctification to tell us about our sins? But that's the only thing she'll tell us. It's like, by the way, you suck.

A

It would be very strange to have the spirit of the living God inside of us and like, yeah, but only this one thing.

B

Only the one thing. No dreams. That's just the random firing of your neurons. Yeah, yeah. I don't know that all dreams are spiritual, but it seems like most of them are, in my opinion. And if you don't dream, it's because God's cut you off. Just kidding. It's because according to science, that you're not sleeping long enough to get to the REM cycle.

A

Oh, that is certainly true of me. Yes. I don't know that if I had dreams more often that they would be any more of a spiritual communication than they are now. But I think for Maggie, like, she has so many dreams that are like. To me, I would say, like, oh, that is God revealing something to you.

B

Yeah.

A

But she also has a lot more dreams in general. Sure. But I don't think necessarily all of them are that. But sure, yeah, I don't know.

B

Well, you can always start by, if you're interested in that, you can always start by asking God about it and then starting to write down your dreams and take Them seriously. And if you don't know what they mean, ask an interpreter.

A

We can end the episode like that. Ask an interpreter. Ding, ding.

B

I'm not the executive producer, I'm just Al Grover Fricks.

A

Yeah, well, yeah, because I feel like the spiral out of control that is happening here, it's like, well, so if God is continuing to speak and do all this revelation stuff, and then, then it's like, well, then how do we shut down things?

B

Like, yeah, I mean, it's a whole. There's actually a big box. If you hang out with the charismatic community, there's a big box of rules that people who aren't charismatics don't know that there's this box of rules. And so they're like, things can get wild so fast. People can claim they're Jesus. And there's like a bunch of community built rules about, like, how do you deal with words, which is what those are called, words of knowledge. What if, like somebody says something to you and you're like, that's not true. And the rules are plentiful and much more rigid than you might expect. But like, it has to have a yes and amen somewhere in the text, right? If it's just like God's doing a new thing and the new thing that he says is that he's evil, that would be like, no, thank you. Or like, God isn't actually God, he's actually an angel. Right? That would also be a no, thank you. So those are in there. If somebody tells you something that you feel in your spirit isn't true, you're supposed to listen to that. Which again, if you weren't raised or spent a lot of time in these communities, it can feel oppressive to be like, somebody told me I was gonna marry this guy and it was wrong. Be like, yeah, yeah, it was. And they would all say that, that if you don't immediately have the spirit in you, say, yes, this is true, then it's not. And that's okay. And they talk about like, your faith isn't, shouldn't be fragile. Now there's also very ancient texts like the Didache, which is one of our oldest documents, even older than the Timothy. He's talking about how to do church and church polity. And it says that if you have a traveling prophet who comes to town and they tell your people to do something, especially to do with money, you should just stone them right off. So maybe if we brought that back, we would make some progress, us. But anyway, yeah, if you're not used to being part of those communities. It's like, it seems like this could get off the reels so fast. And sometimes that stuff does happen, and I'm not saying that it never does, but there are governing rules that help mitigate harm.

A

Yeah.