The 10 Best Movies of 2026 … So Far

A

I'm Sean Fennesee.

B

I'm Amanda Davins and this is the

A

Big Picture 8 conversation show about the best movies of the year so far. Today on the show we are joined by eight ringer friends who share their favorite movies of 2026. Unless Rob Mahoney has stolen their pick, in which case they'll roll with their number two choices. Later in this episode, I'll be joined by John early, who is the writer director of Maddie's Secret, one of the films picked for this episode. John is a hilarious comedian, actor and writer, and it turns out, a damn good director, too. His feature debut manages to blend Douglas Sirk, David Wayne and Lifetime movies into an elegant, heartbreaking quasi camp stew. John is a great guest, super smart guy. Most definitely stick around for this conversation. But first, let's go to our favorite movies of the year so far. And first up, who else? Cris Ryan. This episode is brought to you by the Autograph Journey credit card from Wells Fargo. The Autograph Journey credit card from Wells Fargo is built for travel. You can earn rewards wherever you book your favorite hotel site your go to airline and more. You get five times points with hotels, four times with airlines, three times on restaurants and other travel, and one point on other purchases. Whether it's a big vacation or a quick getaway from booking your stay to that first meal, when you arrive, you're turning your trips into rewards with the Autograph Journey credit card from Wells Fargo. Learn more at Wells Fargo.com autographjourney Terms apply.

C

This episode is brought to you by Starbucks.

A

That is fire. Whoa, that's good. This might be the drink of the summer. Okay, I like this one too. I'm not good with it.

B

Okay, try it for yourself. Starbucks refreshers concentrates are coming home. Find them in the coffee aisle and make it yours.

A

Okay, CR is.

D

Here I am.

A

What's up, man?

D

Not much.

A

You okay?

D

Are we doing the best movies of 2026 so far? Now to get it in under the Odyssey wire because you feel like that's where the movie year turns.

B

No, he has a very complex scheduling regimen that's, you know, he consults the holy tablets, you know, and the positions of the planets, the Quran. Yeah, and then he puts it together before we do the movie auction. It just happens that they schedul the Odyssey for the beginning of. I guess it wouldn't be Q2. What are we calling when it's Q3?

A

Q3, sure.

B

But what if it's just the halves? What is that in business parlance?

A

They don't in the second half of the year.

B

Okay, well, they need a catchier jargon.

D

So this is our hydration break.

A

In a way it is. And we do do this every year at roughly the July 1st mark. And it's interesting because July seems like it's going to be pretty action packed. But the movies have been. Have been popping as you know. CR. Yeah, so. But you chose, you chose a film that came early, very early. What'd you pick?

D

28 years later? The Bone Temple. Nia DaCosta's follow up to Danny Boyle's reimagining or reboot of the 28 Days later franchise. And I wanted to bounce a little theory off of you that I've been working on was 28 years later the little kernel of an idea of where we are now with like obsession in backrooms of that like wild, breathtaking creativity. I know it wasn't like a massive huge success and it was did well enough to get a second movie out there, but I kind of feel like the way that those movies made me feel of like feeling like this director is really taking me into their own personal world and that this is an idiosyncratic, enigmatic way of telling these stories, even if there are things that we've seen before. Certainly that's the case for these two movies for two 28 years later movies. But I wonder if that like we'll go back and we'll look at that as a little, a little signal that something new was coming down the line. I have no idea. I can speak to this film's specific qualities if you want, which is Nita Costa had a really, really tough assignment which was to follow up this franchise's originator's return to the franchise. And he did an amazing job. Your number one movie of 20, 25, 20 years later. And she just very wisely chose to do something different. It's a much more static film. It's not as kinetic. I mean there's certainly like really incred, incredible action sequences in it. But it's much more of a two hander really between Ralph Fiennes character and Jack o' Connell's character as like these two poles of how you would deal with such a tragic apocalypse and what happens to the human soul when it's put in this situation. But it's also about grieving and it's also about loss, which the first one's about too. And I just thought it was just such an electrifying way to start the movie year.

A

I thought it would be a good

D

Good movie to highlight.

A

I didn't really see, like, I didn't draw any of the conclusions. The connections that you're doing around horror movies, things maybe like a little bit of a longer period of time. But this movie is, I thought, was shockingly great. And I loved the transition, the stylistic transition from what Boyle was doing to what Nia dacosta was doing. Huge look for Duran Duran, some quality needle drops. Obviously we were very fines forward on this show.

E

Yes.

A

Love his work.

D

I think he is definitely an Oscar nom worthy performance in this film.

B

It would be nice if they kind of learned the lessons of Gladys and, you know, continued that.

A

Yeah, was a little bit of a financial letdown. And so because of that, maybe it will be more of a struggle. But there was news that Boyle is coming back and is making the fourth film.

D

Yeah, I mean, I think that if you're. If you're saying like, Cillian Murphy is going to be in a. In another zombie movie, it's really hard to just be like, nah, we're good. Yeah.

A

And Jack o' Connell in this movie is terrifying and funny and hard to watch.

B

And then without spoiling it, an incredible set piece of sorts at the end. Very different than the causeway and the set pieces of 28 years later. But memorable.

A

Very memorable.

D

Yeah.

A

Yeah, it's a great pick. It's interesting to think about four or five of the films being talked about on today's episode being horror movies and the fact that it really has had centrality in the conversation this year and. But this is like, how do you

B

guys feel about that as, you know, keepers of the flame, pretty happy.

D

I mean, I think that there's probably some people out there that are like, no, it's a genre for freaks. And we've always just been denigrated and kept to the back of the video store or whatever next to the porn.

A

But I think it's where you love to be.

D

I think it's a really exciting time to see all these different filmmakers working with some of the conventions of horror. And I don't really look at it as like elevated or not elevated or prestige or not prestige. I think it's all pretty interesting to me.

A

I completely agree. Movies in general, very democratic medium. Horror movies, one of the most democratic genres that we have. I do like. I mean, Nita dacosta comes by it honestly. I mean, she made a Candyman movie like seven years ago. It's not like she's not interested in the genre and what it does. It's interesting to see A movie like Obsession Happen where that's a hard genre horror movie with violent, gross stuff like beheadings and very upsetting spells and curses and things like. It is pure horror. And for that to crossovers quite fascinating. But this one is a bit more elegant, even though it has a lot of gnarly stuff in it.

E

Yeah.

D

I really hope that they get to make the third one just because I think it'll maybe give a little of shine to the second one. I think it'll. If there is a third one with Killian coming out, I think people might be like, oh, I missed the bone temple because it came out in January, or I was waiting for it to get to Netflix and I hope that there is a little bit of a revival. I think this movie is definitely do one or it will have one in the years to come. So I'll keep singing its praises.

A

Great pick, Sierra.

F

Thanks, guys.

A

Thanks so much. Okay, Joanna Robinson is here.

C

Hello.

G

Hi.

A

So you've chosen a film.

G

I have.

A

Was this an easy choice or a hard choice?

G

It was. I was really excited because usually, as is the narrative on this pod, Rob Mahoney takes my pick.

A

This keeps coming up.

B

This is literally every second.

G

It is a theme. He was saying right next to me when the message came in from Jack and I was just like, like. And then I was like, oh, check your phone. Jack sent us a message, but I

B

already replied, so good job. Did you get the sense that you were taking something from him?

G

I don't.

B

Just once I would like someone to take something from Rob Mahoneyhan.

A

We will be drafting later today, so maybe we can.

G

I don't know that this would have been his number one pick, but, like, he picked right after me. He's like, you're a number one pick. So, yeah, it's tough.

A

I'm interested to talk to you about this movie. We saw this movie together.

G

We did.

A

And what is it?

G

It's Project Hail Mary.

A

Okay. So this movie, one of the biggest movies of the year.

G

Yeah.

A

The first strike in the movies are back narrative. We are kind of living through here.

H

Right.

A

And what usually happens to movies like this, I think is when they come early, they start to get, like, diminished. Yeah, a little bit. Like the flaws start to get elevated a little bit. We've had more time with them. I wouldn't say it has happened in a dramatic way to this movie, but it doesn't feel as shiny and new as some of the other movies that are being picked even on this episode. So I want to hear your Strong defense for the film. What you love about it, Joanna, what

B

an old, stale pick you picked from

A

just a few months ago.

B

Do you feel.

G

I mean, do you feel that way that, like, the shine is off Project Hail Mary?

B

I mean, everyone has very short attention spans, but especially people who track box office and what the new shiny thing is in movies. And especially if you have to talk about movies all of the time on a podcast. And I think also maybe a little bit in terms of awards sense. Cause we are all Oscar nerds on this podcast and we all saw Project Hail Mary and we're like, huh, so is that our big. Is. Is that our sinners for this year? Is that our big block early in the year? Blockbuster that turns into Oscar nomination, you know, King. And we are in the time of the year where it just happened to

G

sinners, which happened to sinners, which happens

B

to sinners as well. So it's just, you know, I enjoyed it. I'm not gonna ask you. I'm not gonna put you. You're saying offend your fans just for the sake of podcasting host, like, sure. Attention is elsewhere.

I

Yeah.

G

No, and that's fair. I think I loved the movie. I love the book that it's based on, but it still feels like a big win for sort of original sci fi, even though it's an adaptation. It's not a. Not a franchise movie, despite what murmurings you might have been hearing about a sequel. I think it's like an incredible standalone. I think it's a movie star story for Ryan Gosling, which is really important. It's a studio story for Amazon mgm.

J

So.

G

So in the big pic sense, it is like this interesting business story of the year. And then.

B

But then they canceled an artificial movie because they have a deal with OpenAI.

G

Oh, yeah. And you know, and they put out he. Man, like, I'm not saying everything's great for Amazon mgm, but this was like a big win that they kind of needed.

A

Heman will be heard from in this episode, I'll have you know. And not by Sean, not from me.

G

No. Van Lathan, right?

K

Yeah.

G

Yeah. What a chaotic choice. And I really loved the movie. And like, you know, I'm here to praise Project Hail Mary, not Bury Disclosure Day. But I think that sort of like a lot of people got that, like, Spielberg feeling from it. It was Lord and Miller's first film that they directed since 2014. This was almost a sort of like, maybe you should have let us have a Star Wars Story moment.

L

Absolutely.

G

So there's like a lot of narrative around it. And then I just. I really loved the movie. I loved seeing it with you and Malorie. I took my nephew, and that was, like, huge. Like, I got to take my nephew to the IMAX theater, and he just, like, loved it.

A

How old is he?

G

He's 15. And he just, like, loved it. And he loves that book. And so the book readers loved it. The people who had never heard the story loved it. I love a puppet. So, like, that's an Oscar story that's gonna keep going and going.

A

So, like, apparently his name escapes me, the puppeteer, who also.

G

James Ortiz.

A

Thank you. It sounds like there's gonna be a campaign for him in supporting actor, which is fascinating, and I would love for there to. You know, we've heard about this for years and years, and Andy Serkis has been put. And it never really cracked through. I do feel like the Academy making a bunch of these changes, getting the stunt category in, like, all the stuff that we've kind of been whinging about for 10 years, they're getting their heads around, and the body's so big now. That would be just a great story to get a puppeteer who's doing that kind of voice work. Cause, you know, it's only two performances in that movie. That's really it. Aside from Sandra Houler.

G

Yeah.

J

Who's fantastic.

A

Yeah. And she's wonderful, too, but, yeah, that's a great part of it. Love to hear that about your nephew. And I do think it's completely fair to compare it to Disclosure day. I mean, Project Hail Mary doesn't exist without ET So that's totally a component of the story. And one side is a very hopeful, optimistic, excited version of this story. And one is a little bit less, so one is really a little bit more of, like, I think a beaten down vision of what the world wants us to think is behind the shadow.

G

But they're both trying to end on this Hope Core note, and for me personally, at least, Hope Core was more successful inside of Project Hail Mary.

J

And.

G

And I think it's something that will have that. I mean, I actually don't really care if it wins Oscars. I care about the Oscars in general, but, like, I care about that supporting actor narrative. But, like, I do think it might have a resurgence because they were so smart about the way that they marketed this from San Diego Comic Con last year all the way through the debut. They made a ton of money. I think they really rolled it out very expertly. So I think they know they need to Be like quiet for a minute.

H

Yes.

G

And then come back and feel like a sort of. Remember how much you loved project. Hail Mary.

B

Just get the puppet out. Get Rocky out there. Get him performing Rocky on the first bit. Yeah, like, I just. It's candy and a great story that would be fun to see.

A

Gosling, in addition to being a performer, is a producer of the movie and so he stands to be a best picture nominee, assuming the film goes all that way. So I think you're right. I think it's gonna go quiet until about September, October. They'll probably have a re release of some kind. It is a movie theater movie. That's the thing too, is like you got. It's a real. One of the reasons why it worked so well is people going back multiple times to check it out on the big screen. What else. Anything else you want to say about it that really connect with you? I know you've done multiple podcasts about the film at this point.

G

I have. I've talked to them about it a lot. Do you see it as a movie that you want to show your kids? Is this like a kind of like enduring plasma?

F

I to.

A

I toyed with it this time around. I think it's maybe a year or two early for Alice. It's somewhat complex at times and it takes a little while to get to Rocky.

I

Yes.

B

I was thinking about the kind of the first 30 minutes, but the Rocky of it all, I think my son would respond to. I think both would actually.

G

The note that I remember us having when we came out of it was just sort of like if it had just been a little shorter, a little tighter, it would have been an all time sort of classic.

A

I still feel that way.

G

I kind of felt like the more time I saw it, I think two other times in the theater and every subsequent time I saw it, I expected to feel the runtime more. And I didn't actually at the end of the day. But also I saw it with like full excited audiences. And that's just a huge part of that whole experience as well.

A

Totally. And that I think has been. That's been the trickle down effect of going to the movies for the last. For the four months since it first hit. Right.

I

Guess what?

G

Movie theaters are great.

A

Yeah.

G

Seeing movies with people is great. And like the last couple times I've. I mean, certainly last year. Cause I. My pick last year was Black Bag. Like, I think I've been talking about films that I watched at Home Alone and it just like feels so different to talk about a big it's just so that we had a big blockbuster movie at the beginning of the year, that we've got a. We're staring down the barrel of a bunch this summer, and there's even more waiting for us in the fall, and that's just very exciting to me, so.

A

I totally agree, Joe. You're the best. What are you gonna come back and talk on the show about? What are you targeting this fall?

G

I don't know. What are you gonna have me on for?

A

Last year, you called your shot with Hamnet.

G

Yeah. And that went really well for all.

A

Well, you did great.

B

I started crying.

A

Anything appealing?

G

What are you My shot to now?

L

I don't know.

B

What are you anticipating?

G

Oh, gosh, I don't know. I mean, my mind is so stuck in sort of the Odyssey's right around the corner and Spider Man's right around, you know, in that sort of house of our way. So I have yet to migrate to Lord of the Fall.

A

Oscar, are you hype on Spider Man?

G

Where's your head at? Medium hype? I think Sadie Sink is incredible, and everything that I've heard from people who've seen it is that she's fantastic and they're hiding her so much in the trailer. But I'm really excited for this as a potential sort of new chapter of this world that has felt like it's running on fumes for so long. So this is potentially an expansion. How do you feel about the mutants entering the mcu?

B

I'm glad you clarified. Which mutant is she?

G

Probably Jean Grey. Sure.

B

And that's who? Jennifer Janssen. Oh, and then Sophie Turner.

G

Yes.

A

And Famka Jones.

G

Okay. Yeah.

B

Different red, blue person.

G

Think about the redheads. Yeah.

B

Okay. Good luck.

G

Sure.

B

I'm gonna see it.

G

Yeah, of course.

B

And then I'm gonna go on vacation.

G

Where are you in Spider Man? In general?

B

Pro. I get it. I mean, I really liked the last one when they pointed at each other and then when Andrew Garfield saves Zendaya. But you were thinking of Emma Stone, and I thought that was very beautiful. Listen, when it's a teen, it's a good character, you know? Like, it makes sense to me. Am I. Do I know anything else? Not really.

G

Not really. Where are you in Clayface?

A

I'm extraordinarily excited. I'm in the midst of attempting to book the first ever Tim Symonds, Alex Ross Perry conversation for that episode so that we can talk about gore effects and also the pain of being an actor, which is what Clayface is about. How are you feeling about it.

G

I'm really excited for it.

A

I'm bizarrely very excited for is actually it's sort of similar to andor where it was sort of like you could have been doing this with superhero movies all along. Like, we've been waiting so long for you to just be like, scale it down, tell a different kind of story.

G

Do something weird.

A

Yeah, yeah. Anyway. All right, Joanna, thank you for being here. Prestige TV podcast, House of R. Correct.

G

Correct.

A

What else is cooking right now?

G

Occasionally. Big picture.

A

Big picture Rewatchables.

G

Yeah.

A

See you soon.

G

See you soon.

F

Bye.

A

Charles Holmes is here. It's been a minute. I'm sorry about that. What have you been up to? What's going on?

F

I've been in the trenches. The LA trenches. It's getting wild out there. We can barely go outside without having a breathing apparatus.

A

Yeah, yeah, that's been tough. That's been a struggle out here. You just spent nine minutes extolling the virtues of your skincare regimen to Amanda

B

and fitness routine, which is germane to the film. We're about to listen.

A

Absolutely.

F

My brother is still in New York and he does not work out. And he helped his 27 year old friend move from Brooklyn to Harlem and he's. I can't move my body. I'm like, dog, I'm 33 right now. I'm like, I can feel if I do not move my body, it's just gonna.

B

We're training for life. And so when the bounce, the bounce house hit yesterday and I had to just throw children in like kettle balls one by one, I was ready.

F

You were ready.

A

No, I did my work. No, you didn't.

B

Your daughter came over and said, please.

A

That's not true. I literally did get a turn. Are you doing back stretches every day? I stretch, but I am not on a fitness regimen right now. Actually, for the first time these last two years, I have stopped fully and need to figure something else out because I'm headed towards the back nine. You're not at the back nine yet. You're still hale and hearty. You could be performing in the film that you chose at this stage of your life.

F

No, but for the film I chose, this was a late stage pick. But the Furious.

A

Yes. So why did you choose this movie?

F

So it's funny, before I chose this, when I was talking to Jack, I was originally gonna pick Nirvana, the band. And to me, even though one is a comedy and one is a martial arts film, both of them share a quality that, like, I. That makes me fall in love with movies all over again is like, this is something that only these creators could do. Where it is like, I think the Furious was budgeted at something like 20 million. And I was reading interviews and the director was like, we are not Tom Cruise. Like, leave jumping out of the helicopter to Tom Cruise. We are not fast and furious. We cannot film cars as great as they do. What do we have? And it's martial arts. It is the judo.

A

It's the Wushu.

F

And to me, this is just. I thought I was gonna go in thinking, like, this is such a Chad boy experience. And I'm like, I'm watching beautiful men at the height of their. Of their sportsman. Like, just lives doing ballet.

A

Yes, true.

F

It kind of reminds me, everybody's saying, like, the comp is the R. Like, this almost reminds me of Crouching Tiger, almost. Where just the choreography is the story.

A

Yeah. The martial artistry is more the thing with this movie. There is a lot of. It is a fusion of those two kinds of films, though, you know, because there's no gun fighting in this movie.

F

This is not John Wick. This is not gun fu.

A

Yeah. It is hand to hand. But the choreography in the fight sequences is astonishing. I mean, it is really, really.

F

But.

A

And the thing about that is sometimes you can talk about this, and I think it can be alienating where if you're not a martial arts movie expert or you don't know the history of that stuff, that sometimes it can be, like, a little boring, or maybe you're thinking of feudal Japan or something. But this is a contemporarily set story. And it's also kind of funny in a way that Nirvana is funny too. I mean, the way that it's choreographed is you're meant to be jumping out of your seat and chortling to yourself and plotting.

F

There is a scene, and it's been in the trailers where they are in a cage. And there's no way in real life a fight would work like this. But our main character is quite literally, like, building a skyscraper of beating guys. And he's, like, stepping one over another, and instead of having a gun, he's just killing people with a hammer. It's just the lizard part of your brain is like, monkey beats other monkey with hammer.

M

Cool.

F

It's like, this is crazy.

B

It's physical comedy, which there is. There's, you know, there's a line from, you know, like, Three Stooges and then musical comedy and then people fighting each other, which is, what can you use your body to do? That is outrageous. And unexpected and like, not really true to life.

F

Not true to. But.

B

But exhilarating.

F

It was exhilarating. And even like it should not make sense that there is at the end. The greatest fight I've seen in decades happens at the end. It's a five way fight, like so great. You almost stand out of your seat when they split the frame in five.

A

I said the same thing on the show. That part is just so awesome.

F

But to get there, you're just like. There's this big hulking mass of a guy who basically wakes up and he's not a zombie, but it's like he just runs to the fight and you're like, what is happening? And then you just have five guys who all have grudges. But the movie has also done this phenomenal thing where it's like, this is not taken. Where the whole thing is. We are going all the way to rescue the daughter. Halfway through their movie. They rescue the daughter, they rescue the captured kids. And you're like, wait, what's the rest of this movie? And they're like, oh, no, they solved the problem. I don't actually give a fuck about these kids anymore. I just want to see people beating each other.

A

Yeah. It's a set piece machine. It's also like, it does tip into Dada. Surrealist. It's not even really important what's happening. What matters is the. The poetry of violence that is on screen. And that character that Charles is describing is like a bullet headed gigantic man who is like axed to death and then comes back to life in alarming fashion and then biochemically knows which path to follow to find the fight that is happening.

F

I was laughing the entire police station

A

at the end of the movie. Yeah. This is a lot of fun. I'm not super familiar with Ji Miao, the one, the silent star of the film, who's the father of the little girl.

F

So neither was I. I'm gonna butcher their names, so I'm not gonna even. But like the other two stars, one of them is one of the greatest martial arts artists. He's been in the race.

A

Yeah. Joe Taslim.

F

Yeah.

L

Yes.

F

When you see him in a movie, you're like, this guy is the devil. And to defeat him, these characters are just going to have to.

A

Oh, oh, you're referring to. He was the guy with the yaya ruiya.

F

Yeah.

A

Whenever you see him in a martial

F

arts movie, you're like, oh my gosh. Yeah.

A

This movie puts the death of Robin Hood to shame when it comes to bow And Arrow Battle. I will say that for sure.

F

This movie, I was enchanted. And it's also funny where a lot of times. Cause I was like. When I left the movie, I can tell it had an oppression on me where it's like. Usually I'm like, all right, I'm driving home. I'm gonna listen to a podcast. I'm gonna listen to an album. And I drove home in silence. Cause I just wanted to think. I was just like, what did I just watch? Like, I don't want. I kind of want to just bask in this memory of being like, oh, we can still do cool shit in movies. We can still do stuff where I'm like. I'm still kind of scratching my head. I'm like, I can watch all these videos of how they did this stuff. And still there is. There is the magic of cinema, of being, hey, some guys can just dance. And the dialogue is them fighting and beating the shit out of each other. And what more did you want?

A

At the age of 33, did you see it with a full crowd?

F

So I. Yeah.

B

Where I wanted to do a movie theater check in for you.

F

So, unfortunately, I watched it at one of my least favorite movie theaters. Regal Passio. Okay.

A

Tough.

B

Passio.

F

Passio. How do you say it?

B

I'm drink Paseo. I'm there a lot, you know, I don't know. And they have a large Kim Crawford port when you need it.

F

That is not my favorite because I will say I also saw. What's the Catholic movie where they're all voting?

B

Conclave.

F

Conclave.

B

I got there with you.

A

Where are they all from?

B

Ice there. It's beautiful.

F

I saw. The reason I could never really go to that movie theater again is I saw a conclave when Trump was elected the second time. And I went into the movie not knowing what was gonna happen. And I left and I checked my phone and I was like, oh, the world. Cuz, like, I walked out and it was just pure silence. No one was talking. Everybody.

A

You have a negative association with that.

F

I have a negative association. And when I.

B

And they have the new. They have, like, the school desk chairs now. Yeah, I don't really under. I feel contained.

F

But what I was saying, I like it.

A

I like all movie theaters.

J

Sure.

F

This was a Thursday at 4pm and while it was not packed, I did, like. I was doing a little bit of, like, a sociological, like, study, because it was grown men who were like, in their 40s there, but all of them had brought their partners. Like, there was just. It was like a Date night. But it was also 4pm and these men were, like, in the 40s and 50s. And I was like, this is a.

B

This is on a Thursday.

F

On a Thursday.

A

It never for one second crossed my mind to bring Eileen to go see the Furious. Not for a single second. I can't imagine a thing she'd enjoy less.

F

I will say the partners, the women left the movie theater not seeming that enthused. And all the men were just like,

A

bro, Cinema people standing and cheering in the middle of my movie theater. It was amazing.

F

I yelped during the five. They split it in $5. I was almost about to just stand up and just keep standing.

A

Yeah.

F

So sorry that we had Boycorner.

B

Listen, that's good. It's good when people make the highest version of their art instead of trying to do stuff in the middle that pleases nobody.

F

That's the thing. I was trying to do the drama. Rob Mahoney picked it.

B

Me too, but, you know, Mahoney gets me every time.

F

Here's the thing. The drama and the Furious. I will just say, ending on this would be a great double feature.

M

Love it.

F

Like, to me, these are both speaking to the same things. Just the fight of the human spirit and then the fight of hammers drilling into foreheads.

A

Charles Holmes, that's beautiful. Well done. Thank you.

F

Hell, yeah. Thank y'.

E

All.

A

Mallory Rubin is here.

L

Hello.

A

Hey, Mal.

J

Hi, guys. Great to be here with you.

A

When were you last with us?

J

Well, I mean, I know the answer, unfortunately.

B

Cause I have Star wars draft.

I

Yeah.

J

I've known many sleepless nights since it was the Star wars draft.

I

And when I fall asleep at night,

J

I see the Skywalker family tree. It's the last thing I see before I doze off and the first thing that pops into my brain when I wake up in the morning.

B

Yeah, but in your version, the little tiny things are part of the tree, right?

J

The droids are on the family tree.

K

That's.

B

No, no, not. I know what the droids are. What are the other ones? What was the real hailing area that you. Yeah, there we go.

J

Yeah. Well, I received a lot of feedback from people on the Internet saying that I was right and you were wrong.

B

Can I also say that I received a lot of feedback from people who thought that you were me? And that is a tail is oldest at the same time. Yeah, that's true.

K

That is.

J

A tail is oldest time for us. Yeah.

A

Not all women, which is amazing, because we.

J

Exactly. I was gonna say we do both have brown hair, but we could not Possibly have more different. Like, our interests and tastes are so different.

A

Yeah.

I

So.

A

And yet two of the most important gals in the world to me, you know?

H

Beautiful.

J

I mean, thank you for saying that.

M

What an honor.

B

Okay.

J

What an honor. I miss you guys.

B

We miss you.

J

I love so much.

B

Do you want to lead with your complaints about the procedural aspects of this episode? Yes, go ahead. Floor is yours.

J

I have some complaints about the procedural aspects of the draft which will, I think have already aired when this airs, but we'll be recording after, so I'll save some of my ammo. No, I'm kidding. I can't wait. Or am I kidding? We'll find out.

A

You're always very normal in drafts. I've noticed that about you.

J

Yeah. I have three thoughts today.

A

You roll with the punches.

J

I'm excited for the draft. I actually do think that I have been better served in general by a more mellow approach to the draft, which is what I will be bringing today.

A

Oh, I'm sure I fully expect to encounter that.

B

What did you pick for this?

J

I saw the text and.

B

How did you pick it?

J

Sean hit up the group chat and this is an annual tradition. I was in Sweden. When you hit up the group chat,

B

were you actually in Sweden or were you on one of your 14 layovers?

J

That's a good question. I think I was in Sweden when the group chat came. And all of the many layovers and the many hours of travel when I was also not responding to texts came later and before. By the time I was able to catch up on the group chat, the exchange, the two movies that I would have really loved to pick, Project hail Mary in 28 years later, had been selected by two of my dearest friends and colleagues and now sworn enemies, Joanna and Chris. And then I thought, okay, we got a couple weeks. Sean is such a thoughtful planner. Always ahead, before we record Amanda with a little feedback.

A

Feedback from Amanda, Surprising.

J

Nodding of the head, Shaking of. Not a nodding, actually a shaking of the head. I thought, you know what?

A

Thoughtful Planner should be the title of my memoir.

G

That would be good.

J

Did you consider that for your newsletter alpha plan?

A

No, I'm saving that back pocketing that one for down the road in my 70s. You know, it's going to be.

J

Will you still be potting and author photo crafting newsletters when you're 70? Do you?

A

So, okay. Yeah. Wow.

J

I'll be on a beach. What about you?

B

Same. I'll be on my own island.

J

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

A

Well, I just. I love the spirit of creativity. I love creating. I love sharing my thoughts.

J

I like the spirit of creativity and I will be engaging with that by reading other people's books while I sit on a beach. So amen. I thought maybe by the time we pod, I will have seen Sheep Detectives and movies that I hear is wonderful and feel sure I'll love. Didn't get a chance. Then I was like, you know what? We're recording this a week, a couple of days after Toy Story 5 comes out. Amazing.

G

Yeah.

J

Conflicts last week.

B

Couldn't make the screenings and I was out of town.

J

This is just a nightmare.

A

You told me all the way up until the last minute last night.

J

I texted you 10 minutes before a Toy Story showing this weekend in the city I was in, which was not Los Angeles, and I was like, I might go. I was there for a dear friend's birthday celebration, so that would have been irresponsible. And I did not ultimately go.

B

I am glad that you picked. I have picked Disclosure, Experience a Friendship rather than the movie quote unquote about friendship.

J

I did actually end up sitting in the hotel room for those exact same hours doing other work, for what it's worth. But then later I communed with other people and it was honestly wonderful. It was wonderful.

B

Listen, then you got the lesson of Toy Story 5 without having to update your eye.

J

I've gotten to see it yet. Can't wait. So I have chosen Disclosure Day, a movie that I thought would be worth including in the podcast and discussing. But I, and I do think it's interesting to talk about. But I can't say, like to quote Chase Serrano with my chest is actually my pick for best movie of the year so far. But I do think it is a movie that has given us something that is one of the best things that movie fans can have, which is debate and discussion with each other and probably more crucially of all, an excuse to dive back into a creator's canon. So one of the things that I just loved about the run up to Disclosure Day was not that I need the excuse to do this, not that any of us do, but the excuse, the opportunity to revisit some of my favorite movies of all time, right? I was like, time to boot up Close Encounters, which I did. Time to boot up bt, which I did. Time to boot up War of the Worlds, not a movie I particularly enjoy, but I still did it. I was like, dare I rewatch Crystal Skull? And then I was like, you did this a couple years ago. Chill, Chill. But that's a great. I don't Actually think that that ultimately helped my reception of disclosure day, candidly. But it was a wonderful thing to just like engage in the discourse, your favorite thing, online discourse. Amanda.

B

I love to hear from other people,

J

fellow cinephiles, about where this movie fits and stands, not only in Spielberg' filmography overall, but like specifically the UFO films. And the opportunity to really think about how much of that area of interest, which has spanned decades of his creative life, is like, the aliens come to us here on Earth. It was just an interesting moment to reflect on his relationship to that type of storytelling. I thought the movie was very propulsive and entertaining and I also had a lot of notes on it. But it's been really fun to like to listen to you guys talk about it, to pot about it with Joe, to see it with my husband and talk about it with him, and just to like. When I was out of town this weekend with friends, it was a big topic of conversation with people. And so that's just been kind of like a neat experience as a movie fan. And so that is my pick, because I could not pick those other movies.

A

I appreciate you picking it here. We had such an interesting experience. We saw the movie together.

J

We did, yes.

A

The three of us and Joanna. And there was an unusual series of scrums of people exchanging notes after the screening that we went to, which is pretty rare, I would say at these screenings you sometimes get maybe one day polite two minute conversation, but people were like, no, let's do a 15 minute, 20 minute breakdown of how we really felt about this.

J

The podcasts were happening in real time.

A

They were, yeah. And you could tell right away, this is gonna be really divisive, this movie. Cause there were some people who walked out. I remember looking at one very prominent journalist while heading to the bathroom and he was just like, nope, crap.

B

And I was like, am I crazy?

F

No.

A

And so it has been funny that it has gone into the blender. I think as often with these things, like heavily marketed movies from huge famous filmmakers, if they don't land certain parts of the story, people get very, very reactive. And there's been a lot of really negative reaction to the movie that's probably gonna subside over time. A lot of Spielberg movies also tend to get reclaimed pretty quickly. You mentioned not loving War of the Worlds, which is a movie that I really loved at the time. Though I do think it also similarly has a lot of script flaws. Also a David Kep script. I think a lot of times what happens with Spielberg movies, and we talked about this in the 21st century conversation is his personal kind of philosophy and perspective. Plus, the filmmaking chops tends to outlive the this story annoyed me components of a lot of his movies, especially the second half of his film career movies. Crystal Skull is one of the precious few that I'm like, no. Like, I just can't get on board

J

with this wild film.

A

Yeah. Very weird movie, but fun to rewatch.

J

Yeah.

A

I don't know. I've only seen it one time, though. You've seen it a second time?

J

I've seen it twice as well. Yeah.

B

And, I mean, it confirmed my experience. And in terms of. I think the filmmaking aspects of it are electrifying. And I learned more about the old alien, you know, and continued to think what I thought about that.

A

Alien, Jim. Alien.

B

No, it's like. It's Alien 17, right? Jimmy in vivo 17.

K

Yeah.

B

Is that right?

A

Yeah, I think that's the name of him on tv.

J

You've really absorbed all of the canon from.

B

Where are you at?

I

I know.

J

And Hugo, I'm pro alien in general. I enjoyed your discussion with each other about whether your entire creative and professional and personal lives would halt in full if aliens were revealed to us. I believe aliens are out there. It feels impossible that they're not.

B

Okay.

J

I enjoy the genre.

B

You think they're here on Earth currently?

J

Good question.

B

And what would you do. What would you do if Disclosure Day happened?

J

So that was obviously. I know this is a podcast where we're supposed to pick movies that we really liked, talk about what we like. You know, the conclusion of the film was, like, where it really lost me, honestly, the idea that, like, first of all, I think the local news, broadcast news element, but also the idea of the public response.

B

I understand no disrespect to Courtney Grace. Who should. I hope they're starting that supporting actress campaign. Let's go.

J

And, you know, that was another. I'm glad you said that, because that was another. Reason I thought this was a worthy selection for inclusion in this podcast is because so many of the performances were really wonderful. Like, the Emily Blunt performance in this movie is amazing. Just amazing. I hope it stands the test of time, and I think it is undeniably one of the best and most compelling performances of the year so far. So that's really fun. I liked watching Colin Firth bite down on the mouth guard. For me, that was compelling. Not sure if you had any thoughts on that.

B

Do you prefer Colin with the brown eyes or the blue eyes?

J

I like him. You know, I'll quote Mark d' Arcy and say just like just the way he is.

B

You know that that was actually. Do you know that that was a literal reading at my wedding, that speech.

J

I would expect nothing less from you and Zack. Two of the purest.

B

That was one of my choices. Yeah.

J

Great stuff. I mean, Bridget Jones is a sacred text. It's a sacred text, obviously.

B

25 years this year.

J

I believe the film is that possibly film.

B

The film. I think it's 2001. Yeah. Books earlier. Yeah.

J

We are fucking old. We're old. I would like to think that aliens. That it would be pleasant. Like, I like E.T. i loved. Loved Project Hail Mary. My actual favorite movie of the year so far, Rocky the Goat. But you know, Joe and I talked about this in the pod. It's like we covered, you know, not. Not so long ago. 3 Body problem. The Netflix adaptation of a really hallowed. That's about fantasy trilogy. Spoiler. It is. And the thesis on which those books exist is a much darker read on the inevitability of a certain type of conflict if extraterrestrial life not only existed, but if we were capable. If species and races from different areas of the universe were capable of interacting with each other. So I. Part of what I love about the genre in general is the fact that there are so many different ways of engaging with what an interaction encounter like this must might look like. I thought that especially because so much of the Disclosure day run up was really like secretive and guarded, that there would be maybe a different degree of the thesis of what this might mean other than the aliens are here and maybe it's okay. And the problem is actually the people, which I think has been present in the text before. But, you know, propulsive action. It's an entertaining two and a half hours in the theater. I saw it with the Gen Pop the second time around. The theater was loving every second of it. People were whooping. They stood and clapped at the end.

A

Did you see the Fabelmans?

J

I did. Oh, yeah, absolutely. At home. Not in the theater, but I watched it at home.

L

Yeah.

A

The one thing that I have been. Cause I've seen obviously all the discourse about Disclosure day as well. Naturally. In fact, it's come directly in my direction a few times. But the movie was certainly marketed as a movie about aliens. And what if aliens came to Earth? That's not really what the movie's about. Right. Like the movie is very obviously about, like, what happens to you when you're a little kid and why do you become the way that you are and how it haunts you and then maybe solves you or figures you or helps you find a clearer path to your life. That's a very heady concept. That's not a very one. It's not marketable at all too. It's the kind of thing that you say to somebody who hates a movie and they're like, fuck off. Which I understand.

B

I mean, it's a little bit about aliens, though. Yeah, it is.

A

It is sort of.

B

And they roll one out on a modified wheelchair at the end.

A

It is certainly about aliens. It's about like our culture's interest in the idea of aliens. You know, we don't spend a lot of time with those aliens in this film. We don't really. It's not like E.T. e.T. Is about an alien.

B

15 minutes of footage of them just being like. And here's another thing about aliens.

A

And they upload it to Jackie Gleason and Nixon in the footage. You know, they're looking at Stu.

J

Yeah.

A

Dick Nixon. You're a big fan, Dick Nixon?

J

I wouldn't say that. I wouldn't say that. No. No, I'm not. Are you a Nixon guy? Big Nixon guy?

A

No, no. Not a fan of his policies or the way that he ran his administration. Seemed like kind of a mean spirited guy.

J

Brave, take.

A

A little hateful at times. Really resentful. I thought maybe a bigot.

G

Yeah.

A

Seemed like based on some of the secret recordings. One thing I don't understand, recording yourself.

B

I've never understood this. I mean, this is also a note I have for basically every single like spy or CIA plot when they're like, well, here's the file that shows all of this. Why are. If you're a nefarious government entity, don't keep files.

A

Yeah, Just.

B

Just don't.

A

Yeah, just burn them. Yeah, that's what we do.

B

Every episode down there we go.

J

This is always one of the things, like, what if they recorded and committed to the record that someone can find. But also, what did they name their shadowy organ? You know, putting the villainous intention right

G

there in the name.

J

This is another recurring note.

B

Vordex. What does it stand for? I'll give you $100 right now if you can do it. I don't have $100 on me, but

A

I can bet waived is the first word.

B

Yeah, I. Just to be clear, I'm not gonna

J

give you $100, but do you carry around $100 bills?

I

No.

B

And he doesn't anymore. No. And he stopped carrying cash.

A

Let's see how much money I have right now. This is how we're gonna wrap this segment.

J

I do, I do feel like cut this for social.

B

We could introduce like a throwing table. That would be good element to that. Could be interesting.

A

Let's count it right now.

J

You don't need real money. You could use like Imperial Credits, like a Star Wars I for a while

B

until Juliet learned his name.

J

That's a lot of cash.

B

This is. I thought you said you were done with this.

A

40, 60, 80, 100, 120, 140, 160, 180.

B

Oh, there we go. There we go. See?

J

What is that for? Are you like tipping the valet with a crisp punch?

B

This is Long Island.

A

I'm a man of many interests.

J

Do you carry that around because you're like future proofing? You believe the apocalypse will come and

A

you never know when you're gonna get in a jam.

J

Venmo won't work. You'll need cold hard cash.

A

You never know when you're gonna get in a jam.

J

What else will you do?

B

How often are you going to the atm?

A

Not often.

B

Okay.

A

Because I'm not often in a jam.

B

Okay.

A

I'm trying to live a jam free life.

I

Okay.

A

But every once in a while, you

J

have not been lured into a Hansel and Gretel fairytale esque cottage in the woods as an impressionable 10 year old and looked into the eyes of a CGI deer, fox, cardinal, raccoon. Hasn't happened to you. Wouldn't happen to you.

A

And yet I feel such a kinship with those characters who were lord in that way. Part of the reason why I liked this movie.

J

You do often feel kinship with the chosen ones. So yeah.

A

Mal, any closing thoughts here? This was a deranged segment of this season.

J

You know, I'm looking forward to catching up on more movies. Let me say that, yeah, it feels like there's a lot of good cinema this year that I haven't seen. Do you think that if I had seen Sheep Detectives or Toy Story 5, I would have picked one of those? I do, yeah.

A

They're both very much in your zone.

J

Yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing those movies. Let's just almost like pretend I have seen it and picked one of those. But I enjoyed discussing Disclosure Day with you and I look forward to the continuing discourse on this podcast. You know, I mentioned this to you, but one of my favorite experiences recently was looking back in the big pic archives. Cause Joanna and I have been doing a Christopher Nolan rewatch heading into the Odyssey. We're doing Tenet, obviously a movie that you Two are engaging with in the present timeline as well. But as I told Sean, I looked back into the archives and you guys podcasted about it five times in the year 2020.

F

Yeah.

B

There was not a lot going on and we were stuck in our houses and. Or in where we watched it in San Diego.

J

It was wonderful.

A

Yes.

J

Wonderful to remember those times. How many times do you think you'll podcast about Disclosure Day before it's all said and done?

B

Well, this is three.

J

Something to think about, so it will

A

be done for a while.

B

Yeah.

J

Okay.

A

We will be podcasting about Tenet once more.

J

I know.

A

In the great city of Toronto in July. And we will be seeing the movie on a big screen for the first time, I believe.

J

Oh.

A

With a group of people.

B

Well, since the.

J

Since the Drive thru.

B

The Drive Thru was a large screen,

A

it was a big screen, but it wasn't a movie theater experience, I guess is the way to put it. Anyhow, Mallory Rubin, thank you. You're the best. Van Lathan is here. What's up?

L

What's up, friends?

A

How are you?

L

I'm fantastic. How are you guys doing?

A

Very good. Thank you for being here always. So I know what you chose.

F

Yeah.

A

It's a film that Amanda hasn't seen.

B

That's true.

A

It's a film that just. That means something to us.

L

Yeah.

D

Especially.

A

What movie did you pick?

L

Masters of the Universe.

A

Is this truly, deeply, madly your favorite movie of 2026?

L

No.

K

Okay.

B

Okay. How did you happen to wind up on this podcast talking about Masters of the Universe then?

L

Rob chose the drama.

B

Yeah. Is that you also would have picked the drama?

L

I would have picked the drama.

B

Me too.

H

Yeah.

B

Yeah.

L

So I'll say this, and this is no shot to Masters of the Universe.

A

Literally five people have said I wanted to pick the drama. That's so funny.

L

So just watching the drama at the Grove with a full audience was phenomenal. This is gonna sound so stupid to so many people, but when Endgame came out, everybody in the theater was oohing and ahhing and all of that stuff. The drama had nobody flying around, no capes, no powers. And people were just like that. People were just like that.

A

They're buzzing.

L

Yeah, buzzing. This amazing communal experience. A lot of people had a lot of political things to say about the movie and some of the subject matter that it dealt with. I at no point bristled at anything. I fell into the story. It was awesome. It was by far my favorite movie of the year. But if I couldn't have it, this next one is right there. It was great for me to sit down, not only relive my childhood, but kudos to the filmmakers of Masters of the Universe for attempting. Attempting to inject some contemporary storytelling into this thing that I watched when I was a kid. They tried to take care of it. They did not do a perfect job. A lot of people saw the movie, didn't like it. I actually really enjoyed it. And at the end, it gets to the point to where Adam becomes He man. And I was captivated by that.

B

We've been talking a lot about toys today. You know, just in our own lives, our kids lives. He man. Toys were important to you?

L

He Man.

B

He. Well, because there's only one he man.

A

There's only one.

L

He's one he man.

B

But then the other masters of the universe were also.

A

Are they all masters? They don't really explain it.

L

I don't think they're the masters of the universe. I think that he of the universe.

A

Well, this is complicated. You know, this was a toy line that was refashioned out of the spare parts of a lot of different kinds of stories.

B

Yes. I listened to Griffin Newman explain this.

A

Barbarian stories, sword and sandal stuff, a lot of high fantasy plus high tech that eventually became an animated series that I assume you watched with as much religion and fervor as I did. And there's not a lot of lore explication on the Animated series.

L

That stuff came with later iterations of it. I think when we were looking at it, it was. Even when she Ra came along, it was like, oh, Skeletor used to be a member of the Horde, and he's not in the Horde anymore. He left. She Ra was kidnapped and all. I'm like, oh, there's more. There's more story. It's like a bigger thing, a bigger world. A bigger world.

A

But it's also multiple comic books telling different strands of the story that don't agree with each other. Like, it's kind of a mess. It's primarily a toy company's idea of a story. Instead of a creative single person like Jack Kirby and Stan Lee being like, this is.

B

They did it backwards, this character. Yes, they started with the toys.

A

Exactly.

L

But also, they did it backwards, but they were also doing it and undoing it. Because the toys came with a comic line. Like, he's talking about, like a mini comic. Right. But that mini comic was sometimes a little bit too straightforward and violent for what worked for the cartoon. So sometimes they would be like, okay, well, this is on the mini comic with the toys. But the cartoon, they Were using to sell the toys. Well, we can't do that on there. Like Skeletor at first was this really mean evil guy. And then midway through the first season they go, this is better if he's a little bit funny.

A

He's kind of funny. He's kind of like a Paul Lynde, like fabulous, you know, Goof.

L

Yeah.

B

And so you're 8, 10.

L

Younger for me, but yeah.

A

You're 4. I'm like 4, 5.

B

So you're not aware of any of this?

A

You're just taking what you're being given brain like that. Muscle man looks cool, right?

L

It's like on TV and it's in Toys R Us. Rest in peace to Mom.

D

Same for me.

B

Where do you think I got my Tamagotchi?

F

Okay.

L

I don't know what's going on. So it's there and it's there and then that's it. All the other stuff, like I wasn't

A

aware of it, but like, the movie, like, kinda does. It does scratch that boyhood feeling I felt. I mean, I think the movie is very flawed and like kind of a mess at times, but it weirdly takes chances with a property as stupid as he man, right? And makes does a couple of fun things. And when he lifts the sword, he says, I have the power.

B

You were moved.

A

It got me, man. I know it got you. We saw you right after the screening.

L

Yeah, it does. And like, obviously there's such a large part of that that has to do with childhood, but honestly, it's also something that's so earnest you can, like, mess it up. Like watching him access this ancient power. And his whole thing changed now that he's the champion. He has powers to go back out and stamp out all of these people that are trying to take over his kingdom. But it's not enough. It's not enough because he led a contemporary life where Mike doesn't make right, so he's gotta do it a different way. They tried to do that in the movie. They got there enough for me. But once again, you guys hear from me all the time on here. I get if you didn't like it. It's not fucking.

B

You gotta stop reading the Reddit page.

L

No, I love Em.

B

Don't.

L

No, fuck that.

B

Just you. I won't live in your truth, which is that this meant something to you and I haven't seen it. And we're here together sharing our feelings and they don't matter.

L

I'm a cap for the Reddit page. I'm a cape for The Reddit page. You guys have the best Reddit page. Because at least on your Reddit page there is some discussion about movies. Like if you go to the higher learning Reddit page, it's like, Van is getting fat.

B

No, you're not.

L

I'm losing weight. But at least on you guys Reddit page, there's some discussion of the movies. Now, no Reddit page is without its toxicity. I get it. But what I'm saying is I don't want people. I want people to understand wherever, even while I'm on the Midnight Boys, I want people to know that I go to these movies to enjoy them and celebrate the stuff. Sometimes the movies are so bad that you can't do that, but that's rare for me. And also, the higher you aim, the further you have to fall.

I

True.

L

So there are some films I go to that are supposed to be really important movies. And I'm like. Like, that's a high degree of difficulty. Like, I just don't get it. Right. But if we kicking shit and flying, you should be able to make that be good. With this movie, he man works. Adam doesn't work as well as he man does. True Skeletor, unfortunately, guys really works.

H

Yeah.

L

Jared Leto's finest performance, like, unfortunately, Skeletor.

B

What was that movie he was in with Denzel?

A

It was the Little Things. He played a serial killer who he was unable to capture. It was a very bad film. He was nominated for a Golden Globe for his performance.

L

Yeah. So that's why when the people still thought he was kind of like a serious actor, that every performance had to be taken note award worthy. Yeah. But in this, if Skeletor works, the movie will probably work. But I get why people didn't fuck with it. If the drama is not my favorite movie of the year, this is my favorite movie of the year. And there's a lot of things going on. I have been like evangelizing the movie, like retweeting stuff. Go see he man. Nobody went.

A

But I mean, yeah, it bricked incredibly hard.

L

Oh, it's a brick. Yeah, it's a brick. Number one. The reason why this movie bricked to me is this is old. This is a movie that, like, this

A

is for people in their 40s. That's what it is.

L

Right. And it probably should have been made in like 2015 or 2010.

A

2012, I think. 2012. If they were gonna do it early in the superhero. We're dredging up this old IP stuff. Right.

L

So they should.

A

When we were in our 30s, when

L

we were in our 30s, we could have been excited about 20s. Yeah, maybe. But, like, now these kids don't give a fuck anymore. Stay with us.

A

Watching the movie, I was like, yo, I'm 40 fucking 3. I'm 43.

L

I'm looking at this shit. I'm like, yo, this shit was.

A

This is 40 years ago. I fell in love with this character.

L

My mom goes to see the movie and my mom calls me. She's like, I know you saw he Man.

K

Remember?

L

I know you love he Man. You see he Man. They did all the stuff he did. He had the sword, he did the whole thing.

A

Remember that?

B

He man.

L

I loved it, but my mom loved it because it reminded her of me watching it, you know? So that plus the fact that it made me appreciate Barbie a little bit more. Obviously, Barby has generational kind of hold over culture, but Barbie is a well made.

A

It is totally a credit to Barbie the movie and how hard it is to do what Greta did with that movie.

M

Yes.

L

And like a master filmmaker taking that property and making it this treatise on, like, who you are, what you are, what it means to be that. And that was dope. He man did not do that.

A

But he. I said this on our episode, but I mean, the way that Barbie is very much about femininity and being a woman in contemporary times, this movie is trying to be the same thing for being a man. It's trying to explore masculinity, toxic masculinity. Sort of like the role of politess in culture and what is safe and what is not safe to say. And it's a cool idea. And it never really works.

L

Right. I will say I could. There are parts in the movie, like, there's one stretch in the film where Skeletor comes into he man's world. And it is kooky, kind of scary, hilarious, and incredibly effective. And you could see in places where you can see the seams of the movie a little bit. You can see a couple of the rewrites.

A

What could have been, what it could

L

have been if the film would have let itself be that. Because that part, legitimately is the thing that made you go, oh, my God,

A

I had the same feeling.

L

We're having fun. This movie is actually fun. And then it ends on a high and you're good. But I had a lot of fun in He Man. We're doing this now. The fun is still around the corner, which is interesting. So why are we doing it now? Just.

A

You're the second person to ask.

B

Because this is in the scriptures of the big picture. It is written that at the end of June, really right around the July 4th holiday, the middle of the year, we do the first half. It's mathematical.

L

Oh, I see.

A

Yeah. It's not because we're trying to get something in before the Odyssey or Spider man or anything like that. It's just this is the midway point. We do it at the midway point. We'll do it again at the end of the year.

L

And by the way, not just. I should say, not just the drama was taken. Like, some other movies that I saw were taken as well.

B

Go ahead, speak on it.

L

Obsession.

B

Yep, I took that.

L

So I don't like movies like that. I normally do not.

B

Same.

L

That was fucking brilliant, man.

B

I agree. And that's why I picked it. And that's what I'm gonna. What I want to talk about is just, like, how it has broken containment.

G

Yes.

L

Yeah.

B

And opened a genre to people who are very hardcore, not a part of that genre.

L

So the lady from the movie in is from Superman and Lois.

H

She is.

L

And so I see her and I'm like. I watched her. I watched religiously. Superman and Lois is actually a really underrated Superman story. It's like, actually does a lot of cool things. Superman and Lois moved back to Smallville and they're raising kids. It's really interesting the way they go about it. But see her in. She's blowing up. She's amazing in the movie. And by the way, I didn't know that the movie had a supernatural pull to it before I saw it. I didn't know that there was actually a whole wishing thing. Kind of reminds you of. What was the Stephen King joint where the guy is thinner, where he also.

A

A monkey's pawtail. Yeah.

L

Right. So like, the man who wishes or

A

who is cursed with thinness.

L

Cursed with thinness. And at first it's like, oh, my God, I'm losing weight. And then after a while, I'm losing. But, like, I thought that movie was phenomenal. Tonally perfect moves at an incredible speed. And, like, for. I don't know as much about the director as everyone else, but, like, on some Jordan Peele type, like, level, when I'm babbling. But when I first saw get out, everyone talked about the script, and the script was phenomenal. I was like. As a director, though, did you see how amazing he could craft tension? And Obsession does the same thing.

A

I feel very similarly about. Well, we'll talk about it when we talk about Obsession, but we're gonna jump off of that point. Cause we're gonna talk about obsession next. Van. Thank you, thank you, thank you for repping for He Man.

L

Yeah, we got the power and we got a sequel. We're not over yet, He Man. She Ra Orko Eternia. We all coming back, bitch. They got every time you order. Every time you order something from Amazon Prime. You making the next he man movie. We not stopping.

A

Thank you, man. Okay, the Meanpod author Adam Naiman is here. The author of a forthcoming new book. Adam, before we hear about your favorite film of 2026 so far, you want to plug the news.

H

Yeah, It's a book about cinematic history and relationships of fathers and daughters. The title, which I've read, is not going to be great for SEO because it is a misspelling.

B

It's fine. It's dead.

H

SEO is dead. You know, dotour theory. I figure a book about fathers and daughters in film should be titled with a dad joke. Who knows if the book will, you know, end up with that title? Who knows all the movies that will be in it because they will keep making movies for the next year or so, but certainly, you know, movies like after sun or Trap or Tony Erdman or even One Battle after another, you know, these are relevant, contemporary films on this, on this title. And I'm really trying to deal satirically and a little critically with that idea of the girl dad, mostly because I hate how easy it is to perform that. And I try as a father of daughters. I hate the as a father of daughters thing because I recognize where it comes from. So this will be. This will be a fun book starring, you know, a long history of movie, movie, movie, girl dad, Some of whom are sociopaths, a lot of whom are sociopaths, in fact.

A

It's true. Congratulations to you on the news. And I'm excited about the sequel, Boy Mom. That you'll be working on. How's that going?

B

I would say there are three movies in the canon. Let's see, we've got Dune. Dune Part two. Anyone?

H

Psycho.

A

Psycho, sure.

B

Oh, yeah.

A

Big.

B

He has a mom. He has a mom. Sure.

A

He certainly does have a mommy.

B

I don't really remember her.

A

He has two mommies. When you consider Elizabeth Perkins.

B

Yeah, exactly. Well, you know, it's exciting for all of us.

A

Okay, Adam, let's talk about your favorite film of the year this far, a film we have not yet discussed on the show, but the guest of this episode will actually be talking about their film as well. So what did you choose?

H

Yes, it's a three hour Latvian film shot from the point of View of a pigeon with rabies. No, it's Maddie's Secret by John Ehrlich, which I think is the film. It's the film I wanted to talk about the most and not because it was left over. You know, I'm low on the pecking order. So the email and they're like, well, these seven films are being discussed already. And that's my number one. Yeah, it's okay. You know, I think I'm. I'm seventh chair. You know, there's the third chair debate with the great American playwright Tracy Letts, a great playwright, and the great American non playwright Chris Ryan. You know, I'm just. I'm resigned to like 7 7th chair. But this would have been my first pick, which is John Early's Maddie's Secret.

A

What is it? Why did you choose it? Why. Why did this movie move you?

H

Because it's very funny and, you know, noted. Noted for note. Noted for my own, you know, you know, sense of humor. No, it's a beautiful film and it's a movie that's created some interesting discourse recently. I say this respectfully around the idea whether it's a parody, right? Because I think parody and satire and. And pastiche are often interchangeable, which is, you know, a function of discourse. And camp is a. Camp is a hard thing to talk about. You know, can camp be intentional? Is there such a thing as intentional camp? Does camp kind of have to be hapless or helpless? And John is such a smart filmmaker. I mean, I don't know if people. I'm sure people on the pod are familiar with John Early's work. He's in that Taylor Swift video. You know, I think that's the thing he was seen for the most, but, you know, a stalwart sketch comedian with his comedy life partner, Kate Berlanthe. Really good actor. He's on Search Party and as it turns out, a pretty brilliant filmmaker. This is the only movie I've ever seen to cross breed Todd Haynes and David Wayne together. I think it was for Ringer. I said something last fall at tiff, like Wet Hot May, December, which I think is like the most succinct way of describing what he's doing here. But it's a. But it's a movie that spiritually resides kind of in like the after school specials, or not even after school specials, like lifetime movies or TV movies of the 80s. There's a very particular film which I still haven't seen, called Kate's Secret, which is a kind of, you know, Diary of a Bulimic housewife or an anorexic housewife film. And the real balancing act of this movie, which, while it's funny, I find quite serious, Maddie's Secret, is how do you conjure up that kind of movie, that kind of, like, social problem movie, or that sort of, you know, psychological problem movie? Talk about how it tends to sensationalize and flatten these issues. Show that you kind of love that sort of movie. And that for John early at least, it's quite formative and sort of just make it, like, make it pretty straight ahead while kind of making fun of it at the same time. That's very tricky. And on top of that, John plays the lead part in a drag performance, which he says is inspired by actors like Divine who, you know, acted for John Waters. I think that, you know, John Waters is part of this movie's DNA, certainly because John early has said it so many times. A movie like Showgirls as part of this movie's DNA. So I'm just automatically inclined to be like, oh, this movie is inspired by Showgirls and Paul Verhoeven. You know, it's obviously good, but it's one thing to be inspired by those people or put filmmakers like that in their letterboxd for, you know, lots of Verhoeven showing up in People's Letterboxd 4 these days. But, like, to understand what they do is harder. And I think that this movie, on top of being funny and silly and having a, like, who's who of alt comedy people in it, Connor o' Malley is in this movie for, like, about five minutes, and every fucking syllable is gold. I mean, he's so funny.

A

He retains Funniest man on Earth title through this film.

H

Funniest man on Earth. I believe at one point he's. He's playing the, like, not the CEO, but, like, he's in charge at this food influencer comedy. And I remember at Tiff, the scene where he just looks at me and goes, let's make some content. I'm like, this is screen grab gold,

A

you know, when this is what I do every day.

H

So, yeah, yeah, let's make some content, you know, but the idea of this would be foodie. She's working in the trenches, kind of as a dishwasher at this social media food influencer company. And overnight she kind of becomes. Maddie becomes this great chef because she's really talented and he has an ear for dialogue in this movie where they're not jokes, but everything is funny. Like, at one point, Maddie says to her Husband. Like, I was just trying to make my husband dinner and now I'm in post production, you know, because her stuff's being uploaded to and, you know, I don't know what you guys thought of it. I think you both liked it. But the trick that he pulls here of making something that is sincere and in quotes in the same time, starting with his performance and extending to almost every element of the way the movie looks, how music is used, how references are deployed. I adore it. I mean, I'm sure there's a lot of year left, but this will end up on the year end list for me. I just. I think it's wonderful.

A

I liked it too. I think it's going to be a little bit of a what's it for your common moviegoer because it is such a blend of so many different things that John obviously has a lot of adoration for. But I think it plays pretty well as a pure social media food company satire. I think that that stuff, which is played very broadly but very funny, is effective, but it is really much more of an emotional crisis character piece, you know, and maybe in a way that you won't see coming about halfway through the movie.

B

Yes. Which is played, if not for laughs, but at least in a knowing way, which to Adam's point is. Is both parody but also very emotionally affecting. I thought this was a movie that understands the world of women very well and also understands watching it and. And knowing that everything is absurd and you would rather not be a part of all of it and you get slurped into it at the exact same time and you can't escape. So, you know, incredibly well observed. I am also a huge John early fan. Very funny. But I loved it and I do think it is very specific. You know, it has the content jokes and the CEO jokes and the. And it is also about eating disorders and there's a wonderful girl interrupted send up in the middle of it. So, you know, it has references that you might not understand on a very specific level, but I think it plays pretty smoothly. You know, it's not impenetrable.

A

No, I agree. And I think all those different sources that you're talking about, Adam, he treats all of them fairly and with respect. He treats Kate Seeker, which I have seen starring Meredith Baxter, with a lot of respect. He's actually not. The only thing he's parodying is the culture around some of those things, but the actual films. He's paying as much homage to Douglas Sirk as he is to the Lifetime movie. And not Saying this is something stupid you should make fun of, which is a really difficult balancing act, I think. And he pulls well.

H

And like, you know, I bow to nobody in my love for David Wayne, for instance, who I think has a similar satirical project sometime in a movie like they Came Together, where the. Which is one of the funniest movies I've ever seen, where the link between, you know, contempt and affection and knowledge and engagement is very thin. But the difference is. And this isn't a knock on David Wayne. Like, his movies are not what you would call visually beautiful. You know, a movie like Role Models or Wanderlust kind of looks like a glossy mainstream comedy and Wet Hot looks cheap because it was Maddie's Secret is beautiful. Like color coded cinematography. You mentioned Douglas Sirk. I mean, that's not just a throwaway. I mean, Douglas Sirk, Todd Haynes, you know, Almodovar, even Verhoeven, these are like incredibly technically proficient filmmakers. And the fact that it's that good looking and expressive visually on a basically homemade movie budget or what I understand. And the fact that there was so little oversight on the movie is I imagine how they got away with the. As Amanda was saying, such a specific tone. This is not a movie where you get notes. There's no notes on Matty's Secret. You're either in on making this movie or you're not. And I will say Kate Berlant, who's worked with him a lot, and she's in other stuff too. I loved her for about two seconds in the moment this year. I got so excited when Kate Berlant showed up in that film. In this movie, I just find the act of her walking into rooms and sitting down and just being on screen helplessly funny. I think like every. I think like every time she breathes in this movie, it's funny and it's not a lead performance, but she's kind of on screen the second most, I think. And she's demented and great.

B

She's the best friend. She also. And which leads to the best friend dancing sequences, which are just absolutely essential. They're just sublime.

A

I also really loved Claudia o', Doherty, who I hadn't seen in something in a really long time, but she plays sort of the rival influence. But she was on that Netflix series Love and was so, so funny on that show and playing basically the exact opposite character. She was the warmest, sunniest, funniest person on that show. And she is quite demonic and an interesting representation of a certain kind of person who is rising to power in the media right now. Well, Adam, this is a great recommendation, man.

H

Yeah, yeah. And I'm not the only one. It's been very well, been very well reviewed and I'm interested to see how it does.

A

Thanks for joining us and thanks for caring for your millions and millions of daughters. We appreciate you.

I

Adam.

H

Yeah, they asked, they're like, my older one is like, am I going to be in the book? And I'm like, do I have permission? She's like, yeah, sort of. She thinks that this is going to be an excuse Leah, to watch other movies she's not allowed to watch. Because part of what I want to write about is this idea that screen time isn't something that I want to keep separate. Like when you watch movies for a living. You guys both know about this, you know, Sean, how much of your life have you sent just, you know, sitting and staring in front of a screen in a basement. I want to pass that on or else what was the point? So she's excited now because she's excited now. She's like, you know, we're going to get to watch stuff together. And yet they're not father daughter film. She asked if this meant we could watch Texas Chainsaw Massacre.

A

Oh, and I. How old is she?

H

I said though, nine and a half. But she lives and she absorbs.

A

Getting close, right?

H

Isn't. What do we think is 11 is the kind of like fuck it. 11 is just the fuck it zone.

A

Because she's gonna find a way to see it without your consent. By 11. I mean that's what I was doing when I was 10. 11 was just seeing things and not asking my parents if I could.

H

In fact, with access to things like a Plex and various streaming things, it is only scrupulous honesty that has kept her from doing this already. I live in both fear and hope of the moment where she's like, guess what I watched. Because that's what I was doing when I was 10 with the VHS shelf. But you know, that hasn't happened yet. I can't wait.

A

I have a prediction.

H

What a horrible thing it's going to be.

A

This book is going to make Adam lovable. It's really, it's going to make him one of the most beloved figures in the film watching community.

H

As long as the small percentage of the big picture listeners who just for some reason seem to hate my guts, you know, don't, don't, you know, don't, don't like it, then I'll be happy.

A

Welcome to the club. Never makes

B

to their home Adam, don't worry.

H

You should never, never, never make all the people happy all, all the time. You know, I love, I love big picture listeners very much. Except for the ones who just seem, you know, hopeless.

A

Yeah, spoken like a true Verhoeven. I thank you, Adam Neyman.

H

Thank you guys. See you later.

A

Yossi Salik is here. Hi.

L

Hi.

A

How are you doing?

I

Oh, luteal as hell.

B

Ready to party. How are you guys?

A

Just dandy. Nixon. Five cheers to you.

I

Yes, I heard about that.

B

Yeah. Did you watch any of it?

I

Nope.

A

Okay, well, we don't have to speak about that here. We can speak about other things. Cinema.

I

Maybe that was the good luck charm, is that I didn't watch it.

A

Yeah, I don't think that's how that works. But I appreciate your care and attention to the New York Knicks. I'm very pleased with the film that you've chosen.

I

Thank you.

A

And I'm looking forward to discussing it with you because it was slandered as traumacore by our co host here.

I

Artist objective.

B

First of all, I never used the T word ever, as you know.

A

Did you not?

B

No, I didn't say it. I said that I. Whatever. This is Yossi's time and then we can discuss it.

A

Is Yassi, what film did you choose?

I

Are we able to pull back the curtain on how the sausage is made here?

A

You would be the fourth consecutive guest today.

I

This is really some errands were in a four hour long podcast recording when this question was asked.

B

Okay.

I

And I'm not saying that I don't deeply love and respect backrooms. Cause I actually really do. But my first choice was a drama.

G

But that's so.

B

Well, it was everybody's first choice. And once again Rob Moni fucks everyone over.

I

Absolute villain. Honestly. What a dichotomy in that person of the nicest, kindest rm. Yeah, man. Who's actually so sinister and devious.

B

Goes for the jugular. Always.

A

Honestly a great rep for him.

I

And also I had a secret second choice. But you were so unkind about people who loved the movie on the Big Picture podcast that I was like, oh, we shouldn't talk about that now I'm

A

trying to think of Super Mario Galaxy movie.

I

It's the Sheep Detectives which I loved with my whole heart. And that's okay if you.

A

I don't think we were unkind. I think we were just not enthusiasts.

B

To hold myself accountable, I did say that people are losing the plot a little about that movie. I think that was the direct quote because it was made into a Meme and I'm sorry.

I

It's okay. I love Sheep and Detectives and feel good movies.

A

You could have chosen it.

B

What is your relationship to sheep?

I

That sounds like, not well.

J

Right?

B

This is kind of why I'm, you know, feeling.

I

Imagining a no effects album cover. Real heads will know. Listen. I love when an animal talks. And there's. I love when I'm reminded of the beauty of humanity. But I'm also segue. I also love when I am reminded of the absolute hellscape that we live in in modern times, which I feel backrooms did a great job of capturing, even though it's set in the past.

A

You are the first person I know who saw the film. You went to the premiere and you rubbed it in my face. You said, I'm going.

I

I'm not rubbed in your face. You said, I'm so sad I wasn't

A

invited, but it would have been nice to see it with you because I had a great deal of enthusiasm for the movie and you loved it that night. I think even you were like, omg, I love this movie.

I

I feel really. Well, of course I was invited. Thank you so much. A24. But I really love to see films with no chatter. Like, with nothing guiding my perception before I go in. And I did kind of, to be honest, go in being like, I don't care about this. Like, I'm going. Cause I was invited and my friend was invited, and we're like, we'll make a fun night of it.

B

Did you go to R and D Kitchen?

I

We went to. What is the Houston's West Cole R and D Kitchen? No, no, no, the other one.

B

Oh, Hillstone.

I

Hillstone. R and D doesn't take reservations. And I'm not a waiter.

B

Okay. Either way, I'm not a waiter.

I

And I also do not like to wait.

A

Let's just put some context around this. The Arrow Theater in Santa Monica, Los Angeles, is where the premier table is. Across the street is RD Kitchen, which

B

is an outpost of the Hillstone restaurant group. The R D kitchen is mostly focused on sandwiches and drinks.

I

It's more chic, for sure, and it's closer to the Arrow. But I need to have walkable. I need to have a reservation. We walked from.

B

From Hillstone.

I

I like to get my steps in.

A

Good.

I

But anyways, all that to say, it's

A

all been very valuable.

I

I went in with no preconceived notions. And to be honest, kind of like a Maybe a. I don't. And you guys know, or maybe the listeners don't. I'M not a huge horror movie person, but I walked out being like, this was fantastic.

A

So what specifically connected with you about.

I

Um, I love. I felt like it was like a raw shock test. I love when a film is kind of that, you know, where it presents you with almost like the thinnest of plot and concept, but through that you're able to like have your thoughts provoked kind of endlessly. My kink is having my thoughts provoked. Do you know what I mean?

A

I do, yes.

B

And I like.

I

I love psychology. I'm a psychology nerd. Yes. Might one say some of the psychological metaphor was lightly heavy handed?

E

Sure.

I

But okay, here's the thing. Kane Parsons 20 right. Backrooms we all know because we've talked about on this show, but comes from a 4chan meme. I think I'm so interested in how we're increasingly post language in the world and especially with young people. Memes are borderline post language. The way Gen Alpha uses words like niche and aesthetic, it's post language, you know. And I felt this film was in many ways like the first piece of art I've seen that captures that post language kind of landscape.

A

Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, I think when you are raised in a screen centric environment, what dominates is images. That's the thing that you are consuming and kind of defining yourself through as opposed to experiences or conversation. And so I think that's a reasonable leap to make generationally that that's how younger people than us are thinking about how to make art.

I

It's just hurtling towards that.

A

That's a very positive, I think, thoughtful but very positive read on it. And I think that they're, you know, the criticisms that we had for the movie, which I would really like to see again, were that every time it tried to be more of a traditional film, it kind of got a little bit lost in was, I thought, making kind of obvious and kind of dull choices. But when it was following that path

B

and Yassi was talking about, to Yassi's point, the more it relied on like actual words and the more it was trying to explain what was happening instead of creating the vibe and the emotions through the visuals, the production design and the performances, like, you know, I thought Chiwetel Ejiofor and Renata Rhinesva were good and did a lot with, you know, not that much material. And I agree with you that the less you know about something, the better. And this did as kind of a standalone experience work in enjoyable ways. My problem was when I went back and watched the YouTube stuff and the more lore and the more it become weighted down. I didn't do that on purpose. Yeah, the less I understood it because I am old and I. I still use language, but I don't even think

I

it's like I feel sometimes the way. And it's film to film, but I feel the way sometimes about films that I do about music and songs, which is like, I don't really care what the filmmaker's intention was that it was about. I care what I thought it was about. Like, I don't care what Stephen Malchus wrote Summer Babe about. That's about me and my high school boyfriend. Do you know what I mean? I do. And I thought backrooms really provided that for me and I was able to like kind of have this like journey of the psyche around it. And also it just like it captured a thing for me that I think about a lot in, like I said, post language, extremely online world, which is that like everything is sort of this like existential crisis all the time. And everything does feel like a liminal space. I feel like I'm constantly in a liminal space. I've been trying to brick my phone. You guys brick your phones? No, up on the bricking.

B

But I know what it is.

I

Yeah, you don't need to. You're not mentally ill. Like myself, who needs a physical device.

A

I'm probably pretty mentally ill. Yeah.

I

Put myself in a straight jacket to not go onto social media.

A

It's kind of a defining characteristic of anybody who comes on the shows.

I

You're kind of mentally ill, but I've been doing it. And after two or three days I was like, okay. So it's interesting because that's the real world. This world I live in is fake. And that's really how I was feeling. I was like my day to day lived life is not a real space. It's a liminal space. And that's the real world. And I was like, oh no, what happened? How did I flip like this? But I think a lot of people feel that way.

A

Well, it's funny to frame it this way too as a first time viewer of this kind of story, because a lot of what you hear, I've heard this from a lot of you of friends who are parents of older kids than our kids. Is that the conversations that are happening after the movie amongst teenagers are based in a lot of what you looked at afterwards where there's sort of like that lore which is so exciting and intoxicating when you're a preteen or a teenager. That contributed. It amplified the moviegoing experience. But as a bunch of old people, we look at this as this fresh, raw, new thing. We're not as entrenched in that lore. And we can understand it in the same way that, you know, I think the Lynchian comparisons are totally apt. You know, I think it's unreasonable to compare a 20 year old's movie to Eraserhead. But David lynch was 20 when he started working on Eraserhead. You know, so it's also.

I

Many people are like, what was that man on about? And then started to like have conjecture about what he was on about. And it probably has little to do with what he was on about. And that's why it's awesome.

A

Yes.

B

And I do think we've criticized it for that. The quote unquote movie ness of it doesn't work in a traditional script or arc sense. But I think what you just said identifies that it does actually work in a movie on its own. Because as a standalone product, a bunch of old people who don't understand backrooms or lore were pretty impacted by it. And then the young people seem to just be like, be really into whatever's hidden in there and. And so that it can operate both ways is an achievement they could have dialed back.

I

I agree with you though. I was listening again to your guys episode about it and I do think they could have dialed it back a little. Because what you said about breaking the form is really interesting to me and I think. I don't know cause I'm doing conjecture. But I think if Kane Parsons had his way, it probably wouldn't have included.

A

There's been some suggestions that that's true.

I

Like the parts that were a bit ham fisted. Like I think there's a scene where Chew tell Ejiofor's character says like out loud what the. How the backrooms are his mind or whatever or something. And then like.

G

But I.

I

But I just like I'm such a nerd. I'm like, I love that his shadow was a monster. You know, like. And I know that that's like quite obvious, but maybe it's not if you're 20, you know, like I've had 13 years of Jungian therapy. Like for me it was titillating. But I think it's an interesting thing to put in. And I love that 20 year olds love this. That makes me hopeful and happier. Or 15 year olds.

A

Could not agree more. I think the lack of self consciousness in so much of the filmmaking is part of what. Where it's like it's very. It comes from a very raw and primal place that is informed by a lot of other stuff that came before it. Obviously, Kane is consuming a lot of stuff and kind of iterating on that, which is what a lot of great young filmmakers do, where they take their favorite stuff, they kind of smash it all together and make their thing.

B

Yeah. I mean, that's just the history of film. And also all art at some point.

E

Yeah.

I

And memes are art. Like, I would die on that. Like, memes are absolutely art. Memes are a reflection of a societal illness or happiness, whatever. I ain't reading all that.

A

But no, they're joy making them too, for sure.

J

They're both.

I

They're capturing. And I think I heard you ask this question of maybe Amanda about, like, what do you. How do you feel that these are all horror movies? And I was saying to a friend, I was like, I kind of feel like it's a bit of a, like, red flag moment for society that horror movies are so popular because we're all living in horror all the time. So of course, capturing it is what's gonna be the most reflective of what we're experiencing right now.

A

I know I. A slightly, like, inverted perspective on that though, which is that I think that. So people are so inured to a lot of, like, bad news in the real world that they almost have to go. To have a sensory experience on a big screen and quiet. To be confronted with something that makes them uncomfortable. As opposed to scrolling, scrolling, scrolling. Oh, Iran. I don't mean terrible shooting. Oh.

I

You know, outside horror. I'm talking about, like, the horror of being alive. The horror of trying to. The existential horror of trying to navigate a world in which we're so isolated from each other. We lack community.

A

We're okay over here.

I

Okay, Nixon. A big uprush of community around that. We saw some people.

A

People came together.

I

People who weren't there is all I'm saying, who are not from there.

A

What do you mean? The bandwagons?

I

No, I think LA and New Yorker were in it together.

A

Were there a lot of LA people jumping on the New York bandwagon? That's not very forgivable, I don't think. I don't think you can jump on that.

I

I didn't. I paid too close of attention.

A

Okay. You're LA forever.

I

I'm from here.

B

Yeah.

I

I think you should probably be honest about who you are.

A

But you also don't watch basketball.

B

I used to watch the Lakers quite

I

heavily for like six full years. That was My Metta World piece, that's my guy. So I know a bit about basketball. You have to choose at some points what you do with your wild and freshest free time. And I have to make 600 page Google Docs.

H

Okay.

A

We should talk about Metta. World peace, soft air. I have some stories. Any closing thoughts on backrooms? It's a great choice.

J

Good pick.

I

I really liked it. I think I like. I mean, again, like, did I think the Sheep Detectives was maybe a more perfectly executed film, but that's not really what I'm looking for when I go to the movies. I loved that. But what I'm looking for when I go to the movies is to walk out and think about it for weeks. And the sound design was out of this world. Like, I don't usually notice that kind of stuff, but I walked out being like, the sound design. And then when they hit you with the boards of Canada at the end, I was like, I'm a second. Good job, Kane Parsons.

A

Thanks, Yassie.

I

Thank you.

A

Okay, Rob Mahoney, the villain of this episode, has arrived.

E

I don't know where this came from.

A

Little did you know, your name has been uttered many, many a time thus far.

G

Okay.

A

Because you swooped in and, as is your custom, not just from Amanda, but from, I would say, at least three other people.

B

Yeah. You have been cited every time. We've gotten a lot of feedback on the process by which the movies are selected.

L

Yeah.

E

What are the notes?

B

Everyone is mad at Sean because they didn't get to pick before you.

E

I was like the third person to respond.

B

That is true.

E

So I don't really see how this is my fault.

A

I don't think it is either. And I think our system is profound.

B

I also would just like to say that on this particular episode, I was letting the guest guest shoes first.

A

You did.

E

Very gracious.

B

You are welcome. But this would have been my pick as well. So I rubber stamp your selection. What is it?

E

My pick is the drama. The movie. I would say I have by far thought about the most and had the most conversations about of anything that I've seen this year. It's just one of those moments where for weeks after its release, everyone I knew, even if they had seen the movie or not, wanted to have the intellectual exercise about it. So. So who am I to turn my nose up at something that prevalent, that profound, and just honestly, that hilarious to watch?

A

Let's have the exercise very briefly.

H

Okay.

A

What did this movie make you think and feel?

E

We are broken as a country. A very American movie, but also not

A

made by an American notably.

E

I mean, quite perceptive.

A

Made by a man who maybe does not have the fondest view of American culture.

B

He does have the line, isn't this an American thing? At some point? Points said by its non American star, Robert Pattinson.

E

It's very fairly gestured. But also just like the question of what are we willing to forgive, specifically in our partners or prospective partners. I think everyone's line varies. Thinking, thought crime is a particularly fertile area for this one. And I have to say I'm probably more forgiving of thought crime than most. But I have never been in this exact situation before.

A

Yet, yeah, the movie, the scene from one angle is obviously a really good absurd satire from another angle. Kind of an interesting, realistic portrayal of the way that terrible people communicate with one another or don't. And the way that people who feel like they can't be themselves because of some of the ideas that they've had close down. And then other people who feel very comfortable with their awfulness kind of enact it on a daily basis. I don't know that I'm not sure if this movie got me thinking that much. I think it kind of. It landed pretty cleanly for me and I quite like the movie. And I do know why there's a robust debate about it, but I'm not sure if I was kind of pulling anything apart in my head. How did you think about it?

B

I felt the same way. And I think the movie does the deft thing. And it is because of the choice it makes to make the Zendaya character have this confession. She did not go through with the school shooting, but she says. School shooting. She says, I planned a school shooting, which as an American is, you know, the third, fourth, eighth, like the worst rail. And it's a smart choice because you instinctively, as an American viewer and probably as any human being, but I can only speak as American viewer, like tense up and are horrified and don't know what to do and don't know how to react to it. And so then how everyone else reacts to it is plausible. And you thus spend the rest of the film arguing with what everyone else is doing as well as what she's doing and arguing with. And through that and through watching the movie, kind of getting to a place where maybe you know what. Or I don't know what you would do, because again, there is this fantastical quality to it. The other thing I like about this movie is that it. It is, in addition to that thought exercise, it's just a Great movie about the total terror and impossibility of commitment and the unknowability of the other person. And it's a. It's a wonderful movie about how terrible weddings are. Just like, just the pits. Incredibly well observed about the wedding industry.

E

But the wedding photographer dialogue alone is just straight out of the most heinous documentary ever made. Just truly horrifying stuff.

B

The choreographer and then.

A

Who's a heroin addict.

B

No, that's the dj.

A

That's the dj. Excuse me.

B

Sure. You know, but like, never forget, but those are twinned. Right. That these people are set up to do this thing that is being portrayed in just like an absolutely nightmarish light. And they're also facing their worst fears about the other person. And the realization that you, like, you kind of can't. You can't know and you can't totally know what to do.

K

No.

B

Which is why I think the ending lands as perfectly as it does. Like, this, to me, is a romantic comedy. Straight up.

E

I agree with you. And it's like, it's kind of beautiful in the end. There is something in the construction they have made for their meet cute. And then their reunion at the end at the diner. Just something kind of undeniable about that display of. I don't know if forgiveness is the right word, but the grace of, like, let's start over in a way.

B

Sure. But you could also read it as two terrible people making peace with their. Their fucked up fate.

A

They deserve each other.

C

Yeah.

B

It's like, well, we screwed this up. And it's nice that it can be read both ways.

E

I think that's the difference for me between this and. You know, we were just talking about Blue Valentine for unrelated reasons. Blue Valentine's a movie where, like, I do not want these people to reconcile. They're so clearly toxic for each other. I kind of wanted these two to reconcile. Like, I kind of wanted them to find their way back even if they are messed up, even if they are at odds, even if everyone around them is so convinced that what they have is broken or flawed or Zendaya character in particular is.

A

I kind of just wanted to see it work.

B

And that's.

E

I mean, that's a magic act within this movie.

F

Yeah.

A

There's a. I think the primary tension of the movie is Pattinson's character trying to reconcile what he thinks he's supposed to be feeling versus what he actually feels and trying to make sense of in polite society. Is this okay? Is it okay for me to be married to someone who has thought about this? Versus do I actually just still love this person on their own terms? But what has this doubt that has been cast inside of me, pushed me to do, which is kind of emotionally lash out in an unfaithful way. And that's really. I don't know if brave is not the right word, but it's an unfamiliar kind of revelation about human behavior that I think was fairly common in movies in the 70s, 80s and 90s and that we just do not see that much of. And this does. It doesn't feel like a 70s movie at all, but it does feel kind of fearless and making you uncomfortable and making you not really definitely not love the hero that Robert Pattinson is playing. I mean he's a real dipshit in the movie. And you know, she's a flawed person who has thought about some terrible things, but the reasons that she's thought about them are not over explained. But you can have empathy for them if you step back from your outrage, which is something that Alana Heim's character's not able to do, obviously. And she's also one of the great villains who did the movie. Like that character that she plays is

E

hysterical, I think somehow transcended even just her normal famous personality. Like the memes that propagated from her sideline at the Knicks game.

J

Well, sure, yeah.

E

Along these character lines is frankly amazing for someone of her like social footprint.

A

Yeah, that's great.

C

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B

so good, so good, so good.

C

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18

A

I don't know any what other thoughts do we have about the drama?

E

I think brave is kind of the right word for me with a lot of this movie. Like the idea that you can turn someone making like the school shooter confession tape into like I need to update

M

my firmware or whatever gag.

F

Just.

E

Just the gall with which it makes you and makes you want to laugh at every time Zendaya does finger guns or makes a comment along these lines and rewards kind of the repeat viewing and visiting of this movie. I don't know what to call that if not brave. I don't know a lot of movies that are operating with that kind of gall.

B

I mean gall is I think, the right word.

G

It's a little edge.

B

Lordy too, but just enough that I was intrigued by it. And I think the performances and the set dressing, I mean literally I guess, but everything else around it really does back it up so that when the script is needling you, it's just far enough.

E

Yeah. How are we feeling about their apartment? Their flat?

B

Incredible production design? I mean really, really good stuff. Bears no relationship to the city of Boston that I know of. And also I did do some math on Their salaries and how that's connecting to what's going on there. But, I mean, listen, like, maybe there's

A

an insinuation that he's of some privilege.

B

Well, sure, he's a museum curator, of course, but I've never seen backsplash that stylish in a movie ever. I think it's like Zellig style. It's beautiful.

A

I know what that is, but it sounds good. Is that our closing note from the drama?

B

You know, I really liked it.

F

It's a wonderful one.

B

But was the song ultimately. Because when you and I podcasted about it, you said that the cut you saw had a different song.

A

So when I saw the film, which was quite early, the song that played at the end of the movie was Frank Sinatra's They Can't Take that Away from Me, which is an amazing song, which is one of the. And it's an ode to a person who has a lot of eccentricities. And the lyrics of the song, like, for example, let me see if I can clock some of this. There are many crazy things that will keep me loving you and with your permission, may I list a few? The way you wear your hat the way you sip your tea the memory of all that no, no, they can't take that away from me it is a song of acceptance that plays beautifully over that final scene. But I don't think that that's the song that played at the end of the movie when it opened in movie theaters. What was the song that played at the end?

E

I'm not even sure what it was.

B

I am Googling it now because it's the same one that she puts on to make him dance. Right?

A

Is it Forget about by Sybil Baer?

B

This is what the Internet is telling me.

A

I think it's forget about and not this Sinatra song, which maybe not stunning, that the Sinatra state would not want to be associated with this film in some way. Entirely possible, maybe just too expensive or whatever. But I went out of the movie in this little puckish state of glee when I heard that song, which is such a perfect little end note. And I think. Forget about. Is it more of a. More sincere maybe?

B

Yeah, maybe so. Again, that can be played ironically at the end.

A

That's true.

E

I mean, you don't think the Sinatra song is sincere enough in terms of what it's gesturing at?

A

I just think Sinatra's vocal tone has a really, like, insinuating elbow in your chest quality to it that fits very nicely with this. But. All right, well, Rob Mahoney, great stuff. Thanks for having me. Thanks for stealing this from Amanda.

E

My pleasure, genuinely.

A

Okay. Joining us now, producer Jackson Sanders throwing on his punditry hat to talk about the best movie of 2026.

K

My Ms. Mousey hat.

A

That's right. So who is Ms. Mousey and what is your choice?

K

I'm choosing Blue Heron, a really beautiful film by Sophie Romvari. You know, usually to pull back the curtain, I am left with the last of the scraps, right. And I look at my letterbox list, my best of 2026, and I'm like, okay, my ninth favorite movie is available. And this time it just so worked out that I actually got my favorite movie of the year.

A

Wow, that's beautiful.

K

I rewatched it last night and I'm really glad that I did because I don't want to undersell, like, this is a really special movie. Like a really genuinely amazing accomplishment. Like, honestly, Borderline feels like a miracle to me. You know, Romvari, first time feature filmmaker, obviously has been making shorts before. This is. Is a real step above, I would say. And also, she takes a really, really big risk not to spoil anything, and I think it asks a lot of the audience, but I think the filmmaking and the storytelling is so good that she has built so much goodwill for you to go on the adventure with her, to like, I trust you, I trust this filmmaker. And, yeah, I mean, it's just, it's an amazing movie. It's a great accomplishment.

L

So.

A

So I did talk to Sophie on the show and we talked about it a little bit, but it's been opening kind of around the country and around the world sort of slowly over the last couple of months. Can you put a little bit of context around the story and kind of how to understand? Because it's a bit of an unusual structure.

K

Sure. I mean, it basically follows this small family in Vancouver Island, I believe, and there is a mother and a father, and there are four children. But one of these children, his name is Jeremy, is from just the mother's side and he is a troublemaker. He is a very troubled person. He's a very difficult person. I know one of the reasons I connect to this film, I think you said this with Sophie, is like, everybody kind of has a Jeremy in their life. And the first half of the movie is really just. Just examining their dynamics. How this young boy plays a role into potentially fracturing, like these parents, marriage, how it affects his other young siblings, the dynamic between the parents and their children, not just between themselves. And it's just a really, really thorough Examination of how do you navigate a relationship with a person who poses a question that you just simply don't have an answer to.

F

Right.

K

Like a person who is incurable, unknowable. And I think that Ronvari makes a really smart choice that is effective to me, which is like, Jeremy needs to be a mystery to the audience as much as he is to the actual family. Right. Like, you cannot really get into his head because that's what it's like having a person in your life like this. So I don't know. Was that enough context for that?

A

No, I think so. I mean, obviously the film in the second half takes kind of a structural turn after, I think, very kind of gently and sometimes obliquely framing the crisis of this family. It's not always so overt.

B

Yes and no. I mean, it is experimental or non traditional storytelling as well. But to Jack's point, the first half of the film is about a kid who's having a hard time, as we would say in Montessori parlance. That's right. And the film very deftly positions the younger sister as the stand in for the audience and the observer. And so you're focused enough on this younger character and you're supposed to. You do understand as you're watching it, that you're watching it through her eyes. You're trying to figure it out in that mystery that Jack talked about it from her eyes, that when it pivots to her perspective in an older way, it is. It's a change. It's not quote, unquote, traditional film star, but you're completely equipped to understand what's going on. And you have been positioned in her perspective so deftly that I find it is both unexpected and also plays really naturally from an emotional point of view.

K

I think there was a really clever moment that I remember rewatching the film last night. Because, you know, as much as this is a movie about childhood trauma and navigating these relationships, it's also just formally about memory. Like, how do we remember things? And there's this scene where. Where Sasha is learning to peel potatoes for the first time with her mother. And she is basically explaining to her, to my estimation, how do other people outside of their family perceive Jeremy? Right. Like, how do people think of him, their family, and talk about him? And like, as a young person, that's a very difficult idea to conceptualize and understand. And it's this very long shot that's just on sticks and of Sasha's mother peeling the potatoes and her hands are just covered in Potatoes. And the dialogue between them is. It's a long conversation of them going back and forth and explaining. And it just stays on her hands with the potatoes, which I thought was so clever because it's like that is how you remember things, right? Like you attach certain experiences to other ideas and stories. And she probably remembers that moment because of that experience she shared with her mother. So. So there's plenty of clever filmmaking tricks that she uses in the film that just stack on top of each other that I found really successful.

A

Yeah, One of the ones that really clicked for me that I cited when I talked to Sophie was the sound design of the movie is so amazing. The idea of just hearing the box of cereal sliding across the kitchen table in the morning and it creates a real sense of unease. And the whole the Jeremy character creates a sense of unease in this household. But there's also just the kind of common workaday. This is the noisiness of a family full of children. And just managing a family full of children is a lot of work, even if you're not dealing with some emotional struggles. And there's another scene that I haven't seen the movie in a few months now, but one that jumped out to me too is this long conversation between the mother and father after the mother has had a conversation with one of the therapists. And she has been suggesting a certain clarification or classification for what Jeremy is struggling with. And the mother's just like, this is not it. They're wrong about my son. Which is such a familiar thing. I remember having plenty of experiences like that growing up where my parents were just like trying to reject a professional's perspective on their life and their family. And there's something so kind of maddening about that when only you understand something, but that's also shielding yourself from something maybe you even don't understand about your own offspring or your own relatives or something. Very sensitive movie. Great choice. Very excited to see what Sophie does next. Anything else you want to add about Blue Heron?

K

I mean, just on a personal note, it was like I walked out of the theater and genuinely felt inspired. Like, remembered why I went to film school. And like to say that, you know, there are amazing movies that come out. To say that this feels more attainable is absolutely silly and foolish. And I don't actually believe that, but that's like the closest way I can articulate it. Where I see like a first time feature filmmaker collaborating with people they've worked with in the past on shorts. And it's in a genre I really respect. And it, like, feels within touching display. The movie that also reminded me of was after sun. And I always remember after. Not to bring up that debate, but I remember seeing it. I was like, oh, I'm so curious to see what Charlotte Wells does next. You know, like a super, super personal story. How did they broaden out? What's their next project? We still haven't seen anything. I still would be super curious to see what she does next, but I feel the same exact way with Ron Barre, where whatever is next season tickets. I'm very excited and curious to see what she does.

E

Great pick.

A

Thanks, Jack.

K

Thanks, guys.

A

Okay, Amanda, it's your turn.

B

Yes.

A

How are you feeling? You feel like all your picks have been taken away from you?

B

I feel good. I. I jumped in. I did try to let people take first pick, and Rob Mahoney did his thing, but Obsession was on the table long enough that I was like, no, no, no. I would. I would like to. To talk about this and to talk about the phenomenon as well as the movie, since it just kind of keeps

A

trucking well over $300 million, which is

B

just amazing and, and fantastic. And we talked with Van about how this is not a movie that I normally see, this is a horror movie. And you even at some point were saying this is like a very gnarly traditional horror movie, which I historically am not into.

A

Mm.

B

And usually don't go see. But because this was such a phenomenon, I went and so and loved it. And I thought that it worked in ways that had nothing to do with it being like a very gnarly horror movie, even though it was. I guess, though, for me personally, as someone who thinks I'm afraid and I don't like gross outs and I don't like creepy things and I don't want to do whatever like that horror thing is, it was a good education in, oh, I'm wrong. And like, maybe I can handle it. And maybe that's not what's turning me off the genre, or maybe that that's not, you know, that I just kind of have like a misunderstanding of what's waiting for me. And that has sort of been an education over the last few years especially. I know that elevated horror is like a. A bad word or a bad phrase in the community, but the Jordan Peeles and the Ari Asters of the world and it becoming a little more art house and a little less slasher, I guess, has made me realize that the genre can be broader and that there is more to it than just really awesome kills and I do feel like the, the conversation among like the true horror heads is often at some point just about like the technical aspects of the kills, which is its own art form.

A

But he has a brand of that conversation for sure.

B

Right. And so, and so I think, and I think that those of us who are outside the genre often think that that's just really all that it is and that all that can be taken seriously. And so for me it's been learning. Oh that there can, you know, there can be more to it. And that there can be as there is art in creating the tension and the sense of unease and the psychological thriller aspect of it. And that also that there are ways to do jump scares and gross stuff that don't interest me and ways that compel me. And I honestly, like the thing about obsession that was so revelatory is that I thought it was very funny. And every time it got me, one of the horror tropes got me. I started laughing as a reaction and not because it was like nervous laughter. I just thought it was very clever and funny. And I was like, oh, you did it and you engineered this whole sort of thing.

A

This is exactly what I do in many horror movies that I like.

B

Yes, but you do understand when you are like when everyone's talking about Saw seven and blah, blah, blah, and even the slasher movies, even the movies that scream parodies, communicate just something different in terms of what the goals are or what a quote unquote horror fan is going into a movie to see. That's why again, Scream is sort of like intermediating it and explaining it to people who don't get it and adding comedy. I guess part of it is just that I also really like comedy in horror movies.

A

Yeah, I think a little bit of what you're responding to, I could be wrong about this, but my impression of it is because of how old we are. The 80s and the 90s are really the domain of Friday the 13th. Nightmare on Elm Street. That that brand of teen sleepaway camp slasher movie defined the genre for about 10 to 15 years. And so if you're a young person coming of age and you're looking at Friday the 13th a new beginning, and you're like, I don't want to see that. That's just a guy in a hockey mask stabbing nubile 19 year old girls. And I can see why that would be unappealing as a young person when you're getting involved in the genre. The genre is very wide and encompasses a lot of different styles. Most of which are not very popular to the mainstream movie going audience on a regular basis. But this kind of tension filled, nightmarish romantic movie. Yes, it's like Fatal Attraction as well, which is a different kind of horror film and doesn't feature a one wish willow and you know, a more supernatural element. But it has that same fear of the opposite sex and, you know, the relationships and sex and all these things.

B

When we did the 87 draft, I tried to do Fatal Attraction in horror and I made the case that the scene with the roller coaster and the baby is like venturing into it. Certainly like lifetime horror. Yeah. But I understand that it's more thriller. I don't know though, the jump scare and obsession. When spoiler alert for obsession, the friend is in the car and they're about to confess their love to each other and then the Indy Navarretti character shows up and so I was genuinely startled. And then the smashing the head so many times into the steering wheel that it's not gross anymore. It's just extra.

A

It's. It's a really good shout because I think for that sequence for people who don't watch a lot of horror movies is incredibly effective. If you've seen a lot of horror movies. The minute they got in the car, I was like, she's dead. I just knew because I've just seen a million movies like that. So there's a grammar to those movies. And I say that not to criticize at all. I think that's one of the great things.

B

But you weren't startled when she showed up.

A

I mean, the way there's something.

B

I just like the editing shot.

L

Yeah.

A

And the way that the sound is edited. It gets you to jump. But there was never a moment where I thought Sam was gonna make it through that scene.

B

Right, right, right. But also the extension of the death.

A

Yeah.

B

Is intentional and you know, says something about like the attitude of the movie and the way that it's crafted that I thought was funny and I agree with you, was like I felt a little more in on the joke with this movie than I do with many horror movies. I felt more like included.

I

I. I guess.

L

Yeah.

A

I think Curry Barker's training, making TikToks and YouTube videos and trying to pursue engagement on social media taught him a lot about what our primal instincts are as viewers and what are the things that we respond to. And he's just got a real knack for it. I'm really glad you picked it. I'm really glad you went out and saw it. I didn't like assign it to you. You just went and checked it out on your own because you wanted to know what it was all about. But I'm not surprised that you liked has some. We've compared it like it's financial success to stuff like the Sixth Sense, but it does have that like a new person has arrived.

B

Totally.

A

They're a really strong voice, they have a real handle on how to get audiences excited. And Indy Navarati is just giving this Titanic performance, this career announcing performance in the movie that I suspect we'll be talking about for the rest of the year. So great pick. I love, love it, love the movies. If you hadn't picked this, I probably would have found a way to pick it as well. I picked Nirvana, the Band, the show, the Movie, which has pretty much been my movie of the year all year. And it's a movie that I've seen in theaters three times and I saw it last year at a fan event and I was strongly encouraged to check it out as a fan of I was a fan of the web series, but I wouldn't say I was a super fan. I'd seen it, but I was not encyclopedic I when with it, but I'm a super fan of Matt Johnson's. I think he's just one of the most interesting creative dynamic, weird people working in the movies today. And everything that he does has just turned the dial one degree past where you normally expect. This movie, which is ostensibly about two guys in an aspiring band trying to get booked at a show at the Rivoli, which is a modestly sized club.

B

I just remembered jokes from it and started laughing.

A

That's a very great many good jokes. We just had the opportunity to recommend it to Van Lethen. I can't wait to hear what he thinks about it. It's an absurdist comedy that is filmed in a very grounded way, tit borrows liberally from Back to the Future. It is a movie of regret and a movie of teamwork, a movie of pop stardom, a movie of extraordinary memes. Also very much a movie about looking back at yourself and who you used to to be and who you are now. And I found some of that stuff quite poignant, especially the second and third time I watched it, the 2008 versions of Jay and Matt and interacting with their former selves and all the wonderful. If you haven't seen this movie, you got to check it out. I think it's streaming now, but I think it is like a lot of the best picks on this episode. Simultaneously very silly and very deep. The Furious Disclosure Day, Masters of the Universe, Backrooms, the Drama Obsession. These are pretty goofy movies in a lot of their scripting and their premises, but they're really making sincere efforts to communicate something at the bottom of people's guts about how they feel about the world or how they feel the world is treating them. And even though Nirvana. Nirvana is probably the silliest of them all.

B

I guess so.

A

No, maybe not sillier. The Masters of the Universe.

B

Yeah, maybe not sillier. And also, you know, Nirvana is very, very specific and it's jokes. As is Maddie Secret. In its own way. It's true. Maddie Secret.

A

Also very silly.

B

Right. But with real depth.

F

Yeah.

A

So it's been a good. I feel like.

B

I mean, these are all interesting movies. None of them actively bad. Except for maybe Masters of the Universe.

A

Yeah. I'll have to defend it. I won't wholly defend it. And they're from all different places, right?

B

Yeah.

A

Some big studio movies, some big IP movies, some from hallowed filmmakers, some from first time filmmakers, some very independent minded, some out of nowhere successes. I gotta say, I'm feeling great about the year in movies so far.

B

It's wonderful. I spent this weekend just fielding text messages from friends and civilians with random opinions on some of the movies on this list. Some movies not on this list.

D

Some.

B

You know, just.

A

What's the most brutal cut that we've had here?

B

Well, I realized about halfway through that devil wears product 2 is not on this list, but I think that's correct. I had a nice time. How's it going at Coach and your beloved Toy Story 5? Not here.

F

No.

A

Let's do a little check in on where I think I'm at with my top five right now.

B

Okay.

A

Right now I've got Blue Heron and Nirvana at the top of the pile. And then I've got 28 years later, the Bone Temple Miroir. Number three, the Christian Petzold film is at number four. And Sam Raimi's center, which I think is maybe the biggest omission from this episode for me.

H

Sure.

B

Yes.

A

Is at number five.

B

That's a good one.

A

A movie I Love Toy Story 5 would be up there.

B

These are just movies that Disclosure Day have been released.

A

Maddie's Secret. Yep. These are all movies.

B

Yeah. So not movies we saw at Cannes?

H

Yeah.

A

This is only just. Yes. That's usually how I do it. I like Mother Mary quite a bit. I like Project Hail Mary quite a bit. Tuner was a film I loved from this year. But yeah, stuff Like Fjord and Josephine from Sundance, which. That'll be an interesting episode for us. I look forward to that discussion. Not sure if you're gonna enjoy that one. Paper Tiger, you know?

B

Yeah.

A

Club kid all of a sudden. Club kid. Once Upon a time in Harlem. A lot of good stuff coming for the second. We haven't even seen the Odyssey. We haven't seen Spider Man. We haven't seen the live action Moana. I know you're really, I gotta say,

B

saving space for that non live action Moana. I have not seen it, but I will with my son before. Before Moana. I'm gonna do it. Whatever. It's. I was not of the age where I needed to see Moana, but can I tell you what I told you? But I'll tell everyone else. This weekend, we did Ponyo and Totoro with both kids. And Sai, the baby now says cat bus whenever you say Totoro, which is

A

one of the most iconic scenes in movie history.

B

He just loves the cat bus. And Knox was wrapped, and I was also wrapped. Loved it. So I'm like, we're getting there.

A

I'm very happy to hear that.

B

You can, you know, Moana will have its time in the sun.

A

Consider the coconut.

B

I've heard. Yeah.

A

The island gives us what we need.

B

That's beautiful.

A

No one leaves.

B

Okay.

A

That's poetry. That's Lin Manuel Miranda's poetry. That's all waiting for you. You're very lucky to be able to see that film for the first time. Okay, let's go to my conversation now with John Early. Very happy to be here with John Early. Hi, John.

M

Thanks for having me.

A

I didn't know that you were such a cinephile and such a aspirant movie director. I've been a fan of your work as an actor in comedy for a while. Thank you.

E

But I had.

A

I had one clue. And so when I saw the movie, it clicked. And I haven't heard you talk about this yet, but when Idiots on the east side opened a few years ago, I hosted a screening of A New Leaf, Elaine May's movie. I was there and I saw you and Kate there.

J

Yes.

A

And I didn't say anything. I didn't want to be weird, but I was like, oh, that's so nice that they're here. And I love that movie. And I love Elaine May. I've never seen it. Okay.

M

You are responsible for my first few.

A

That's nice. But I thought even of Elaine May. And I want to ask you about all the myriad influences that you had on this film. And you've been very eloquent about them in the press run for Maddie's Secret. But something clicked with me where I was like, John's the kind of person who would check out a new leaf on a Tuesday at 7:00pm I mean,

M

it's the only activity I ever have in mind is just to check, you know, revivalhubla.com or a new York screenslate and just see what's playing.

L

I don't know.

M

That's what I like to do.

A

Did you always want to make films? Was that always something that was a goal of yours?

M

Yes, yes. And I just want to be. I wanna correct the record. My cinephilia is so narrow, it's so limited. And I've put all of those, My favorite movies are all in Maddie's Secret. So, like, there's nothing left. If I make a new movie, I'm gonna have to develop an entirely new personality.

A

Well, but it's deep. And maybe not wide, but it's very deep.

M

Yes, it is deep. It is deep.

A

And I feel like you've been talking about it how you were literally looking at the movies that connected with you in a very primal way and to trying tried to transfigure that into your own work. Like, what. What's the first movie that you saw that made you shiver?

F

Quake.

M

Just in my life. Yeah, I've talked about this a lot. So I really apologize to anyone who's. This is, you know, anyone who's heard me talk about this before. But Clockwatchers, the Jill Sprecher movie, it just did actually have a very profound effect on me. Like a real time effect, not like a retroactive, like, oh, that did change my life. I actually felt a kind of existential shift as I was watching it as like an 11 year old. It's a very bleak movie. And I felt like there was no turning back after. Like, I knew, like I learned a little too much of. About the future of my life and of the world. And I was like, oh, no. But I was just. It really rocked me.

A

I don't know what led to you seeing that movie at 11.

M

Well, I loved going to Blockbuster. You know, the classic routine was like, my mom would drop me off a Blockbuster as she shopped for groceries and it was. And I would, I would always go to the special interest section, obviously, because that's where the game will be from. But that's also where the little Sundance recommend section was. And kind of a neat little like

A

row of movies that are all inside of your movie. Right, totally. Sort of like 90s indie Sundance plus queer cinema all in the one, the smallest section, one little shelf.

M

Yeah. And you know, and I would have to pretend like I wasn't looking at that shelf. I would kind of like do little drive by glances darting and pick, you know, because you couldn't stay for too long or everyone would know. But Clockwatchers was there and, and I was very drawn to Lisa Kudrow and still am. I mean I, I was totally bewitched by her as, as a kid and she's on the COVID of that movie and it seemed, and Parker Posey was too, and I, you know, and, and I didn't. And Alana Eubock, who was in the Brady Bunch movie, which is also a

A

huge influence for Maddie Seymour.

K

Great movie.

M

Yeah. Such a good movie. And I didn't know Toni Collette shockingly well, not shockingly for an 11 year old in like 1998, you know, but, but anyway, but I just rented it expecting some sort of kind of Romeo Michel variation on Romeo Michel. And it just, I don't know, I found it, it totally, it was so haunting. I don't know. I, I, and then I fell in love with Toni Collette and the rest is herstory.

A

Do you remember seeing that movie and movies like that at that time, thinking about how a movie was made or like, what were you beyond the experience of the performers who you really liked and were clicking with at that time? Did you have a brain for who directed this? How did they do it? What does a camera look like and how does it operate?

M

Well, it's funny because it's. Before the Internet was what it is now, where like, like there wasn't even an option of just like immediately Googling

A

something, you know, I remember having that same feeling like, where do I go to figure out what happened here?

M

Yeah, like get the microfiche out. Like there was kind of nothing to be done. So that the desire to like know about that is something that's kind of sad to me about this moment is that like movies don't even have time to just exist as their own kind of magical object. They're immediately ripped apart before they even, they're ripped apart before they come out. I mean, I had to email the crew. I felt like such a crank. But I was like, when they announced that we got into Toronto International Film Festival, opening night Discovery Program, the light goes off, by the way. I'm like directing camera. He turns the light off. He's like, I'm not allowed to, to mug that Hard.

A

But anyway, no bits here. Yeah. This is a serious film conversation. Hold it together.

E

But when.

M

When we went to Tiff, they, like, people started putting out these pictures, and it's so sweet because they're just. They're proud of the movie they worked on there. And. But I. I immediately felt this thing like we're just like, hemorrhaging the mystery of this. The. You know, And. And to me, this movie particularly has a lot of. It has like a. We were trying to make a magical kind of quality. It's like, to me, Maddie is like a magic trick. She's like an illusion that we all worked so hard on. And so I felt sad about seeing me with, like, a cold brew in the sides and be like, you know, like in the. Like. I just.

A

You mean, like, on set stuff that was.

M

Yeah, on set, yeah. But anyway. But I just think things get, like, unpacked so quickly that your references. You get kind of surveilled before the movies even come out about all your references. And it does feel like surveill. That's very bizarre.

A

It's maybe like a too meta attributory. But there is something really interesting about that, though, because the film is so almost overloaded with this collision of ideas, of stuff that we've seen before. And, like, some of it is stuff that will be recognizable to your mainstream audience. Some of it is very cinephilia. Some of it is very, like, if you're between the ages of 32 and 50 and you got a chance to watch television movies in the 1990s. And, like. So I'm curious, as somebody who, like, was coming up with the ideas for the film and then actively making it, like, do you want it to still have that scavenger hunt feeling, even though you do want to maintain the spell? Cause as soon as you start picking apart the influences, the spell also gets a little broken, I think.

M

Yes, I agree. I mean, I. The references were really helpful to me, you know, in just building it. And I am, unfortunately, I am a kind of. Like many gay men before me, I'm a very devotional person and artist. And so I could talk about the references forever. That's what sucks, is that I can't stop. And this is the way the media ecosystem of promoting a film right now. It's just like. It's actually secretly, perversely, a thrill for me to talk about the references, and

A

it's a thrill for me to hear people like you talk about it. So invariably, what you get is this conversation that's like, Well, I love Todd Haynes, and I also love this Lifetime movie, and I love this. And I think we all really enjoy that, and we feel like maybe we can unlock even more of your artistry. But then the slippery slope is. I think Maddie's Secret is very singular.

M

Thank you.

A

I've never seen a movie like it.

M

Thank you.

A

Even though it's like a lot of other movies, which is an unusual thing to do. So at the risk of a vague question, how do you do that, then? How do you metastasize all. All of this stuff that you love and then try to make something unique?

M

Well, I can't really tell you. I mean, I. Because it's copyrighted. I'm kidding. We're really excited. No, it's just mysterious. I don't. The truth is, I think looking back on what I did, on what just happened over the past two years,

E

I

G

actually.

M

This isn't even a retro. This isn't. This isn't me. This is something I actually knew quite consciously. I think that the kind of Supermarket Sweep style of grabbing at all these references was a way to hide. I mean, I thought I was protecting myself. Like, I was writing something before this movie that I found almost too adult and intimate and, like. And I didn't feel smart enough. I might. I might never be smart enough to write it, but I was. It was like, kind of freaking me out. And I was like, I don't know if I'm ready to do this. And I was like, I just want to do something fun first. Let me do something, like, outrageous and fun and, like, cheap and in my mind at that time, kind of experimental. In other words, I was like, let me make something that, like, no one's ever going to. To see, so, like, I can make, like, maybe make something so, like, with my friends, so low budget that, like, it probably will just never have a life. And I felt kind of protected by that. I wanted to make something kind of in private and. And I started just really making it brazenly, like, very pastiche. It just was like. It was like, it's referencing this and this and there's dance and, you know, like. And this friend's in it.

A

This friend, you know?

J

Know.

M

And.

E

And.

M

And I think I thought that. I very naively thought that if I. If I constructed this crazy patchwork quilt, this, like, Frankenstein of references, that I could somehow avoid, you know, doing the. More, like, the. The kind of personal project that I was working on. And then it ended up actually being hugely personal. Like, it just felt sud. As I was writing it. I was like, this is so interesting. This is like I'm tapping in. I'm like, I'm like, completely just doing this, like, movie by numbers. I'm like, following the rules of this genre. I'm, you know, this shouldn't be personal. And yet

E

that's.

M

It's just such a funny thing about being an artist is like, you, you. And about being a human being is you just reveal. You cannot help but reveal, especially when you try not to. You end up leaking out all over the place. And I really was trying to just make something fun. And then I was like, oh, well,

A

like, so my experience watching it was 45 minutes in. I was like, oh, I got it. Like, I got, I get the idea. I get the fusion. I'm seeing the references, at least some of the references. And then by the end of it, I was like, I feel it. I feel that this was. And this is a very sincere movie. Yeah. And not at all, you know, I know you've talked about David Wayne, and there's certainly some, like, some of his progenitors in sort of, like, I guess, satire or parody or something like that. But I feel like the movie never really commits to that. I feel like you can feel the inspiration, but it's a pretty deep movie about a person in crisis and not winking at you at all. And I'm curious, like, like, you have to write through to get to that place where you're deciding that that is the kind of movie that you're making. And also how much are you communicating that about, like, raising money? Because it's probably hard to get a movie that is this kind of odd duck of influences financed and trying to make sure that, like, convincing people, like, I'm going to make sure that this is all balanced and it's all going to play well.

M

I think I had to convince people of its kind of sincerity because I think because of the subject matter, people, the financiers, I think, would have been terrified had I been like, no, we're, we're just having a ball, or, you

A

know,

M

it's a free for all. Like, I, I, I knew that there needed to be this, like, spine of commitment and. But that was just what I wanted artistically. But I knew I had to kind of really reassure people that that was the case. And it was like, shockingly, I mean, because in a very low budget level. So. But, but it's, it was still, given the subject matter and given the kind of central conceit of me playing Maddie, it was amazing. The how quickly people jumped on board. And I think that's because I, I really, for all of its. Oddness, strangeness, I did try to write something traditionally entertaining. Like that was, that was a goal of mine. I wanted to make something that was like, that pulled you through. It was propulsive, it was like, like a dream or like a fairy tale, you know. And so it was. And I, and I really, really wanted to make something very blunt and direct and something that was like, like the emotions and the filmmaking were very blunt and direct and clear and not vibey or cool, you know.

A

Why was that important to you?

M

Well, I think a lot of. I have a lot of rage about this, I guess, but I think a lot of art across the board, music, film, tv. Those are the only three forms of art, as you know.

I

Yes.

A

Only ones we acknowledge on the show.

M

Yeah, they are. You know, I feel like there's just been a, you know, look, you see it most clearly in songs. Songs very rarely these days actually follow a kind of, of chorus. I mean, I mean verse, pre chorus, chorus, like bridge chorus, you know, like

A

there's like a, I always say, like the schmear. Like you can see it in films that have like digital effects.

M

Yes.

A

And there's sort of like, there's like a haze around a certain kind of pop music. Yes, I know what you mean.

M

Yes. There's an ambient quality to so much of. Yeah. And then when you hear like an ABBA song and you're like, oh, right, right. And I don't know, I, I forgot what the question was.

A

You were trying to do something direct, which I appreciate.

M

Yes. And I just, I also think there's like such pressure in the culture for a while now because of social media and like take culture, like hot takes. There's just been, there's been. There's such a pressure to be smart. Smart and to, to know exactly what you're doing and for every. And then, and then also with all this like reference letterbox, criterion, like, it's like, it's like there's such pressure for everything to be so researched and studied and for you to have a perfectly, you know, to articulate your vision perfectly. And like I just really was like, I think there's possibly something very. It was exciting to me to not be concerned about those things. And also. So look, these are all. This is like a high minded way of talking about it. To me. It was like the character, like Maddie is very sincere. She's a dork in some ways. She's not a cool girl. She's a try hard. She sees herself, as does Emily, as a tryhard Susie homemaker. An example of my incredibly nuanced writing. But I don't know, I just, I'm so. I think we live in a very blunt moment. You know, everyone. There's like a kind of way that people talk here and my least favorite thing.

A

Yeah, yeah.

M

And. And I don't know, everyone seems so fucking depressed and I wanted to make something that was like kind of cutting through the ambience and.

A

Yeah, I talked to Olivia Wilde yesterday about her new movie and I was asking her about directing herself and how unusual that must be. Yes, it's very odd. Can you talk about your experience, especially given the performance that you were giving? Yeah.

M

Oh, it was very odd. I mean, I've done it a lot in a way, you know, I've made my own work for a very long time and so I'm quite accustomed to just kind of like, is this so annoying, this bracelet?

A

No, it looks great.

M

Your fans aren't mad.

A

I mean, they're always mad. Not at you though, so don't worry.

M

But I'm very accustomed to like, kind of just like getting what I need from out for myself, you know, and, and like, and giving a lot of options. I'm very accustomed, like editing myself. And I don't get too, you know, caught up in how horrible I look

A

because the movie is kind of about this. This is why I ask. And this transition that Matti is making to a kind of forward facing role in our wonderful content society of which you are currently participating. And so I was wondering if maybe some of your life as somebody who makes stuff and is maybe directing yourself in a very overt way and has to look at yourself all the time and then having a character who is deciding to do that choice and on the one hand seems very like made for it, right? Like built for it. And on the other hand, it creates like a sort of crisis in her and sends her down a very dark path in her life.

K

Yeah,

M

I mean, I.

K

Did.

A

I get that, right? No, you totally reveal yourself entirely right now.

M

I have a very similar reluctance. You know, I have like, I feel like very unhip in many ways, you know, and I maybe value her, you know, or maybe I'm maybe desperately trying to hold on to something that you can't even grip onto anymore. It's like kind of privacy, integrity, you know, I don't know. I really relate to. To Maddie is very much an extension of me in that way. And. I mean, I don't know, I think I'm stronger than. I mean, I think Maddie is stronger than me, period. But maybe in this way, this particular way, I'm quite used. I'm very accustomed to just like putting myself on camera and watching myself and not getting to freaked out by the way I look. And you know, I certainly don't often don't love the way I look on camera. But also I'm a funny person. Like, I'm always like, let's get uglier. Come on. Like let's, you know.

A

Different standards. Yes. Yeah.

F

So,

M

yeah, I don't remember.

A

Would you like level set with people on set where you say, like, am I doing this right? You know, do you need like someone to kind of back stop you? You know, because when you're, when you're the director, you're the answer of all the questions, right?

M

Well, I had some very important people on set with me. I had the cinematographer, Max Lackner, who is, was such a huge part of all this, obviously. But you know, he really, really understood everything quite deeply. He's also a. Literally training to be a psychoanalyst. So there was always a kind of. I don't know, I felt he brought an extra layer of kind of like compassion and psychological nuance to all of our discussions.

E

And

M

he really was, I think, a protector of the. He just totally understood the kind of like bounciness of the movie, you know, the kind of buoyancy of like the tone. And so he was, he did a great job of like making sure that I was keeping it like up. And then my ex boyfriend, Gordon Landenberger, who we had been not in a relationship for years at this point, but he's the production designer. And me and Max and Gordon were all friends and we know worked very informally on this movie without, you know, getting paid. Before pre production started, we, we were living together for a couple weeks even before pre production. And you know, so like there were those. And Gordon and I know each other very intimately and like, and he knows, certainly understands certain kind of performance insecurities I have. And, and so he was, he was actually. He was incredible kind of emotional support, which is, which is absolutely something that a director has to do whether they, you know, tyrannically avoid doing it or not. But like, anyway, so it was, but all in all, it was incredibly lonely. It was psychological torture. I couldn't believe I was doing it to myself. I was shocked. And when I was editing the movie and I was watching footage of myself, I mean, I. I had a day in editing Where I was like, I had to leave and go home and. And I like, was like burst into tears. It was like I was watching myself direct myself in a very important dramatic scene where I like basically crumble to the floor and weep. And I was watching myself do like six or seven takes in a row where I'm like crying on the floor and then going like, cut. And then standing up and then being, being like waiting for someone to go. And it was like.

A

And.

M

And you could see me realize in real time that like, that's me, that's my job.

A

No one's coming for you.

M

No one's coming. Yeah, no one's gonna come rub my back or like. And everyone was so sweet. No one was being cold. They just didn't know what I needed, you know, that. That's a very intimate thing between a director and actor. And I, I felt very exposed and I felt like I was doing this totally crazy thing. I felt kind of insane that I'm like playing this girl in this treatment center and it's like getting this heavy and you know, and I just like, I don't know, but I. But watching myself watching that one person dynamic in the editing room was like very confronting for me. And it also made me feel very close to Maddie. And I was like, because, you know, Maddie is so self made, she is like, not to give anything away, but like, you know, she did not have a great childhood and she's like kind of built herself up. She's with such strength, you know, And I, I don't know, I just really was like. It was like very profound. It was like a moment deep into post where I was like, oh, this movie is like, again, it's like in some ways started from this like really kind of goofy, these goofy instincts and then became totally, totally, shockingly personal. And the process had this meta quality of absorbing the movie and the movie was absorbing real life. And it was just. I don't know.

A

I want to ask you a little bit about that and sort of like the specific tone that you're trying to strike and meet that feeling. So there's an amazing sequence late in the film where Kristen Johnson, who plays your mother, comes in for kind of like a psycho therapy conversation. And that scene, I feel like it kind of brings all of the things together simultaneously. It is like John Waters and Tennessee Williams and Lifetime, right? Like all at the same moment.

K

Yeah.

M

It's precious.

A

Absolutely.

M

It's Tennessee Williams. You already said Suddenly last Summer. Marie.

A

Right, Marnie, Right.

D

Here I go.

M

Here I go.

E

With My references?

A

No, no, no. But it's so. It's so interesting. I. I love that scene, but it is a scene that I think a lot of people, myself included, kind of struggle to describe where, like, it's not camp, but it's not hyper sincere and it is funny, but it is emotionally powerful. And there is this, like, nether zone of tone.

M

Yeah, totally.

A

And I don't really. I've maybe never known how to talk about it and that maybe. And you conjured it, right? You made a movie that has it.

D

Yeah.

A

So how do you. How did you do that?

M

Well, that's another thing where that seems. It's kind of. Is profundity a word?

A

It is. Yeah.

K

Okay.

A

Yeah. You're not describing yourself as profound.

M

Oh, no, no.

A

I can do it if you want. If you want me to say the word, I can say the word. No, this is just.

M

The cool thing about making anything is like, again, like the.

K

Just.

M

Just the power of the unconscious mind. It's really crazy. Like, but I was, you know, because again, I was just going for this kind of like, hysterical in the Freudian sense. Suddenly, last summer, big final, like, explosion of the trauma that, you know, and like, that's a trope that I actually like, typically, like, I hate it. I find it totally cheap and like. And it's a part in movie, TV movies, plays where I just get a. Where I go.

D

Right.

M

The puzzle piece. This is what explains the previous behavior, you know, and that. The kind of bluntness of that, I think, is what I find inherently funny about it too. I don't know. It's also kind of interesting to me that we clearly have been in a. For many, many years now in a moment where there's actually a much more like, kind of cool version of that. You know what I mean? But it's passing itself off is like smarter and more evolved therapies.

A

Trauma core.

E

Yeah. Yes.

M

Beautiful.

A

And.

M

And there was something kind of naughty and really fun to me about, like, exposing what that contemporary thing is. It's like. It's like you're not doing anything new, honey. Like, 10 Williams was doing this years ago, and guess what he was doing. It was so much more flair. And guess what a fucking sense of humor.

L

He.

M

There's no way Tennessee Williams doesn't think Suddenly Last Summer is funny. There's no.

A

Yeah way.

M

There's no way. It's. It's so absurd. The. The big revelation. Anyway, that being so. So I found myself making this thing with like. Which were the climax was this, like, trope That I, like, actively don't like to watch, which is another thing. We're like, what are you doing, John? Turn the car around. But, you know, I don't know. Then I just kind of gave over to it, and I found it all incredibly moving. And, like, I. And I found making the connections between Maddie's behavior and her past, like, very deep and. And. And straightforward.

K

It's.

M

It's an easy thing to track. I liked the easiness of it, but when I was editing it, I, like, I just was like, oh, my God. These two shots of me and Kristen Johnston sitting there, like, I was like, it's me divided in two. It's like you have Maddie, who is. Is like, the gooey center of me. The, like, the aching, longing, yearning, sincere child. And then you have Kristen, who is the kind of. I don't know, this counteracting force that's, like, always trying to kind of burst the bubble and laugh and be naughty and try to expose, I don't know, like, hollow piety or, you know, like, harsh truths. Yeah, yeah. And to have a good time, you know? And, like. And I was like, that's. I was like, it's me. It's just me.

G

It's. It's.

M

It's the two sides of me. And then. And then why that was interesting to me was.

K

Cause I was like.

M

And that's. The movie itself is like. The movie is always putting those two things next to each other and making them try to get along. It's like you two behave, you know, like, you two, like, you're gonna figure it out. Like, you guys, you have to, like, negotiate and figure something out. And that's what I think the movie really is. At the end of the day, it's like, it's a negotiation between these two sides of myself. And there are certain scenes where one side of me wins over the other. Certain moments. It changes from moment to moment, from scene to scene, I think. But then I actually. I think what was, like, really beautiful to me about this is. I do think. And this is not for me to decide. Okay. But I do think that

E

there are

M

moments where they're really synthesized and where it doesn't matter who's winning, you know, which side of me is winning.

A

Yeah, no, it's really interesting. I was thinking about how you were saying you were trying to write something before this that was more personal or more dark, and then where you brought yourself to. And I don't know if you're familiar with the rapper's first album, Conundrum. You know, the sort of like, you've been waiting 25 years to tell your story and you put it all on your first album, and then you get to the rapper's second album and you're like, this person has nothing left to say. And so, like, is there any part of you when you're making something where you're like, maybe don't put all of it in. Yeah, like, what can I. Because it seems like maybe you ended up putting a lot of it in.

M

Yes, because I was trying not to put all of it in. Like, I was like, oh. I was like, oh, I'll just do something fun. Like, let's just do something fun. And then, and then. Yeah, I don't know. It feels it to me. It like. But this is what. Making anything by the end of it, you're like, it contains the universe. Everything's in this.

A

Is this something? Um, I asked Olivia this yesterday too. Is this your job now? Like, is film director the thing that. Cause you know, I felt from afar it seemed like you were doing great as an actor, as a comedian.

M

Like, really?

A

Yeah. Seemed like you had a thriving career. That camera doesn't want you. That camera doesn't want you. Stay in the two shot. This is a conversation. Please stay in the two shot.

L

John.

A

I know you need your close up.

M

Mother, please. This is, um, I, I. Yes, I mean, yes, it's certainly not going to pay me anything.

A

Yeah, yeah, I was going to ask you about that too. Yeah, well, you never know. I mean, that's a tricky thing with this, right? Like, regardless of how this film does, people stumble into commercial success following their passions all the time. So you can't, can't count against that. Right?

M

Yeah. Well, you know, Wallace, Sean, someone who I've worked with, I just spent two years working on his play and he's a hero of mine for so many reasons. But I really, I realized with this, I mean, I realized having put some of my own money in this movie and then working on an off Broadway play for two years, I was like, oh, I'm now understanding the young Sheldon thing. Like, I'm understanding the way he's built his life. He has done these. He did seven seasons of Young Sheldon, got take gigs sometimes and Murphy Brown, the Cosby show, he did a million things like that. And it has allowed him to fund his avant garde theater that's often been totally maligned and ignored and misunderstood. And, you know, and so I. But to me, this is to answer your question, which I've somehow managed to avoid for three to four minutes now.

A

Now, some might say 35 minutes.

K

I.

M

Yes. Like, this is. This is really what I like to do. And I really like. You know, the beautiful thing is you end up. You not only give yourself something to do for two or three years, you give your friends something to do for two or three years, you know? And, like, my friends were like, it's not that this. This wasn't without its conflicts and its struggles, but, like, my friends seemed so happy that we all had a little job for a little while. You know, we got to work together. And, like, that was so nice. But I really did feel, working on this movie, I was like, this is a dignified life. I would like to keep doing this. I would really like to keep doing this. And I've always wanted to.

A

Do you think you'll circle back to the thing you were working on before?

M

Yes, I am. I'm already doing it. Cause I really did. I really feel capable. I've prov. Something to myself working on this, on Maddie's Secret, and I've. And I. You know, Maddie's Secret was an ex. I mean, it's in the title, Maddie's Secret. Like, it's an exercise in, like, bluntness, you know? And I. I worked through that, and I want to keep going. I would love to make, like, eight Maddie movies. Seriously. I would love for her to be, like, a record. Yeah, it's my dream, honestly. But I also. So I got something out of my system a little bit. The Mad Eason. But I. One joke on set because we were honestly having so much fun. I think this was Claudio Doherty's joke. She was like, you should do Emily's Secret. You should just spend the rest of your life taking each character in the movie and Dina's Secret, Beverly's Secret, and just do their secret.

A

I gotta tell you, I love Claudia, and I feel like I have not seen her enough. I fell in love with her. In love. And I think she is the funniest person in the universe. And letting her be, like, a bitch was just such a great idea. She's so wonderful.

M

Well, she's a very. Like, Claudia is. People are very intimidated by Claudia, actually. Like, you know, she's played a lot of, like, bright, chirpy girls, and she's. She's just like. She's the funniest. She's the coolest. She's the funniest. And I was excited to let her tap into to the more withering, you know, part of her.

A

You did good. Okay, so you're making Another movie.

E

What?

M

Less blunt.

A

What? Less blunt, I hope. But. So do you, like. Will you also be, like, taking a young Sheldon? Like, is that. Is that the plan?

M

There's no offer.

A

Okay.

M

I mean, I. One's. I mean, it literally has to come along. The other thing that I have, which is really nice, is I was gonna come up with a joke, and I couldn't think of anything, but I actually do have.

A

I was gonna come up with a joke. We acknowledge your effort.

M

Thank you.

D

Yeah,

M

no, I am. I have touring. I mean, I literally have standup. Like, touring is also. I love doing it, actually. It's, like, totally depleting. But I really, really love performing live, and I have that to make money.

A

I hope this isn't an invasive question, but is that something. Something that you're cool doing as you get older? Because, like, I certainly find traveling for work now to be much different than 10 years ago.

G

No.

E

No.

M

And I don't do. This is, like, the Maddy in me. I have this, like. And this is very much the movie. Like, I have this, the movie, both on a, like, story level, but also on a formal level. It's, like, overstuffed. It's like. It's doing so much. It's exhausting itself. Maddie's exhausting herself.

G

She.

M

She's doing the dance class. And similarly, it's like, in order to achieve the dance class, we had to learn choreography on our final weekend when we were all so exhausted. It's like, you know, I have a habit. And, like. And. And my live shows are, like, they're two hours. They're not an hour, they're two hours long. I'm doing song covers. You know, we're doing. I'm doing a. I have a character where I have to change comments. There's, like, you know, whatever. It's like, I. I like to, like, sweat on stage. And I'm. And so I. I. It's. With each passing year, I just get more and more like, whoa, I can't do this anymore. Like, I'm like. I feel my age in a crazy way.

A

Okay, well, we end every conversation here by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing they've seen. You are filming filmmaker.

F

Thank you.

M

I needed to hear that. What's the last great thing I've seen?

A

Don't say the wrong thing.

M

I know. I know they'll come for me,

K

I'm

M

sure, because it's such a clear feeling when you're like, oh, I loved this. I love this. And I know I had it recently.

A

Do you Feel like you're still a massive consumer of movies.

M

I've slowed down on consuming really anything. I haven't watched TV in so long, I was like, maddie, but I haven't. I also was like, so inundated in watching movies to get ready for this movie that I, like, feel like I can't really watch anything anymore.

A

I hear this all the time from directors too. There's a little like, you hit a wall. Something you make.

M

When you make a movie, you hit the wall. And I. And I'm like, for this next thing I'm writing, I would like for the wall to break down again and to.

A

Is there something that is an inspiration point for the new thing that you would share? You can be real Cheshire cat about this if you want.

M

Can I smoke in here?

E

It's fine.

H

Right?

D

Okay,

M

let me think, let me think. What can I say? I mean, let's just say, okay, this is really. I'll tell you off the mic, but my hint was this. There's an Amazon documentary or like, there's a documentary on Amazon. Not about Amazon. On Amazon.

A

Okay.

M

That has been very helpful for me.

K

Wow.

A

And that's all you'll give? Honestly? That's great. That's a first to someone who won't name a thing, but will reference a thing.

M

But you will come back by Amazon

A

on the next movie.

D

Yeah.

M

In 62 years.

A

Yes, yes.

M

I'll be, you know, fully paralyzed from various back surgeries.

L

Okay.

M

What have I seen that I love recently?

A

No, no, let's do what you just did. I like that you can claim ownership of the first time ever. Referencing, but unenunciated. Yeah, that was special. John early, thank you for being here. Congratulation. Congratulations on Metal Secret.

M

Thank you. I really appreciate it.

A

Thanks to John Early. Thanks to Chris, Joanna, Charles, Mallory, Van, Adam, Yossi and Rob. Thanks to our producer Jack Sanders for his work on today's episode and his selection, thanks to Lucas Kavanaugh for his production support. Later this week, Amanda the movie Auction returns.

B

Yes.

A

You're excited. You ready?

F

You prepared?

E

Yeah.

B

I mean, we've just spent an entire episode hearing people complain about how they didn't get what they wanted in the first half. So, you know, maybe I can channel that energy forward.

A

Let's make it a whole theme week. Yeah, we'll see you then.

C

Your next chapter in healthcare starts at Carrington College's School of Nursing in Portland. Join us for our open house on Tuesday, January 13th. From 4 to 7pm you'll tour our campus, see live demos, meet instructors and

B

learn about our Associate Degree in Nursing

C

program that prepares you to become a registered nurse. Take the first step toward your nursing career. Save your spot now at Carrington. Edu Events. For information on program outcomes, visit carrington.

G

Edu Sci Fi.