‘The Odyssey’ Is Massive and Magnificent

Sean Fennesee

I'm Sean Fennesee.

Amanda Dobbins

I'm Amanda Dobbins.

Sean Fennesee

And this is the Big Picture, A conversation show about a face, a fleet, a war, a man. Today we are diving deep into Christopher Nolan's the Odyssey, the movie mega event that will no doubt be the biggest film of 20, but will it be the best? We will discuss the scale of this Titanic feat, The adaptation of Homer's epic poem, the performances from one of the most loaded casts in recent movie history. Why now for this story and the fate of Nolan's 13th feature film at the box office, the Academy Awards and beyond. But first, we'll talk about some movie news right after this. This episode of the Big Picture is presented by Amazon Prime. One of the best things about streaming is that you never just pick a title. You pick a feeling. And prime makes that easy. With great entertainment and fast shipping that brings the moment to life, prime helps you experience the feeling you're craving. Shows you can't wait for and deliveries you don't wait for. One click away from streaming to fast shipping. It's on Prime. Okay.

Amanda Dobbins

You like that improv?

Sean Fennesee

That was really good.

Amanda Dobbins

Give me some prom.

Sean Fennesee

That was really good.

Amanda Dobbins

Give me props.

Sean Fennesee

It's called teamwork. It's teamwork. We made the dream work. Let's talk about some news. You know, there's a lot of news. I think most people who are coming to this episode don't care about the news. They tell us about the Odyssey, but some of these things matter to us. The Behemoth trailer was released. This is Tony Gilroy's new film, much discussed. Discussed on our recent movie auction. And you say what?

Amanda Dobbins

Well, very little dialogue in this movie, which, for a Tony Gilroy movie, I was. I don't. You know, obviously this is a movie about a musician or several musicians and a cellist. It appears Gilroy has commissioned a lot of original music from many different composers. So I understand why they wanted to get the score in there. But I do come to Tony Gilroy for dialogue. And so I couldn't tell whether this was just featuring something different about the film or hiding the ball. I realized also that half of this cast is sort of a black licorice cast for me.

Sean Fennesee

Oh, no.

Amanda Dobbins

I know. Which I didn't really think through. But once they have Will Arnett at the door, you know, doing wisecracks, I don't know. We'll see.

Sean Fennesee

Will Arnett got more dialogue than Pedro Pascal in this teaser trailer. You know, I listen. It's Tony Gilroy.

Amanda Dobbins

I go where Tony Gilroy goes. Except he does not go to Venice, but I do. That's fine.

Sean Fennesee

That's really interesting about half of the cast being black licorice. I'm excited about this movie. I did think as I was watching it. I wonder how much more I would like this if it was Oscar Isaac instead of Pedro Pascal because he was originally meant to be cast. But you know what? We'll talk about this movie again in one moment. I play Rocky. This trailer also premiered. This is a biopic of Sylvester Stallone in the moments when he was writing and attempting to be cast in the film Rocky. And our friend Tracy Letts is in this movie. We've been hearing about this movie for. I've been hearing about it from him from well over a year. And you say what?

Amanda Dobbins

I look forward to seeing it. We saw some of this at Cinemacon and the casting of Sylvester Stallone matters. Great. The movie hangs on that and it was pretty plausible to me.

Sean Fennesee

The actor. Yes. Anthony Ippolito, who I guess most memorably played Al Pacino in the Paramount plus series the Offer. And so now he's pivoting from Al Pacino to Sylvester Stallone. I would say different archetypes of Italian American actors, but I guess they're related. 70s icons. You know, Rocky never my franchise. We've talked about that before on the pod. But the film looks familiar and a bit like a ham sandwich to me. And sometimes a ham sandwich is delicious and sometimes I'm like, ham, couldn't this be chicken? What about turkey?

Amanda Dobbins

There were a couple old fashioned movies that we were previewed at Cinemacon that are dated for the Thanksgiving to Christmas corridor.

Sean Fennesee

Yes.

Amanda Dobbins

And they seem to feature, you know, white men of a certain age set in the 70s and 80s and I underdogs. And I think they're gonna play very well. I get it. Because they understand what they have and they understand when to play it, which is the holidays. And you will. I watch. I play Rocky with my father. Probably same for. I'm referencing the Mr.

Sean Fennesee

Irrelevant.

Amanda Dobbins

Mr. Irrelevant. Starring David Koren Swedes, aka Superman.

Sean Fennesee

Yes. And he plays.

Amanda Dobbins

Aka the star of Supergirl. Sorry.

Sean Fennesee

He plays John Tuggle, who was the last man drafted in. I can't remember what year. Maybe 1980. And they're very similar sounding stories.

Amanda Dobbins

So I think ham sandwich is fine. But you know, as you said, once a year you're good with a ham sandwich. Maybe twice a year, Thanksgiving and Christmas.

Sean Fennesee

Yeah, I think that's right. It's usually the morning after a holiday and that's when most people will See these movies. Okay, The Uprising trailer. This is Paul Greengrass's new feature film starring Andrew Garfield. Gonna be an Andrew Garfield fall at the movies.

Amanda Dobbins

It always is for me.

Sean Fennesee

Is it? Yeah.

Amanda Dobbins

I'm very open and very pro.

Sean Fennesee

So this movie is. I guess it's an action film. It's about the Peasants revolt in England in 1381, which I know you were a part of and helped engineer. So having seen, like, what's it like to see yourself on screen?

Amanda Dobbins

You know, Andrew Garfield, a fellow Leo with an equally beautiful man of hair. So we appreciate that representation. You know, how many middle age, like, middle ages fight sequences do I need to see in my lifetime? I'm not sure, but for those people who are excited about it, this looks pretty good. Paul Greengrass, accomplished, very accomplished director.

Sean Fennesee

I had him on the show for News of the World during COVID which is a film that feels like it doesn't exist anymore, but pretty good movie. But we have not spent a ton of time dissecting his filmography. I'm not sure if this film will be a reason to do so. It comes out September 11th. I suspect it will be a part of the fall film festival conversation. And maybe we should have that conversation quickly. Before we do that, a couple of very fast movie news things. One, the Batman part two is delayed again to 2028. So someone on X the Everything app pointed out that Christopher Nolan has made like, six movies between the time of Matt Reeves making one Batman movie and another Batman movie. Yeah, not ideal.

Amanda Dobbins

People work differently. I don't relate. I'm way more type A. I'm way more Christopher Nolan than this. But, you know, some people have a elastic relationship to time, including many Christopher Nolan protagonists, so.

Sean Fennesee

That's true. It's A good point. J.J. abrams film the Great beyond also moves back a year. So there was some shuffling going on for Warner Brothers that now is opening October of 20 instead of in November. Apparently, Jack of Spades, the Joel Cohen film, which still does not have a distributor, will not be at the film festivals and is probably not coming out until 2027. I have it in the auction. That's not ideal.

Amanda Dobbins

Yeah, it's an ideal fear. What's going on with Thanksgiving with films? Yeah, nobody wants it again. I just. I mean, I play Rocky wants it, but that's kind of it.

Sean Fennesee

I. Hexed is coming out the Disney original animated film. Do I fear it? Yeah, I think it's a. I think originals are a tough sell. I think Fokker in Law is going to be the winner.

Amanda Dobbins

Okay.

Sean Fennesee

I think that's the big. I mean, Cliff Booth, depending on if people decide to go see that film in IMAX theaters. But I think Focker in Law, Fokker in Law feels very similar to me to the Devil wears Prada 2, where it's like you forget the impact of these films on multiple generations of moviegoers. Not movie snobs, just moviegoers.

Amanda Dobbins

Yeah. But it just. It does also seem like it's rich for counter programming. And again, I don't understand why Dune and Avengers are on the same day still. I don't understand why everyone keeps clearing things, doing something. Something weird is happening.

Sean Fennesee

My personal obsession is the absence of a big film on December 4. This is the one where I'm like, the only movie that's scheduled for December 4th right now is violent night two, which is the what if Santa Were an Action hero movie starring David Harbour. Actually kind of liked the original, but seems like maybe a bigger movie should be on that date.

Amanda Dobbins

I don't understand.

Sean Fennesee

Also got some news that Clockwerk, the new Warner Brothers imprint that is helping to re release Ken Russell's the Devils, has its second original film coming at some point after Sean Baker's Tiamo. That's going to be Mary Bronstein's film.

Amanda Dobbins

Nasty.

Sean Fennesee

A reunion with Rose Byrne, and apparently Jenna Ortega is going to be in it.

Amanda Dobbins

Wonderful.

Sean Fennesee

Yeah. Good stuff.

Amanda Dobbins

Great.

Sean Fennesee

This is exactly what Clockwerk should be doing. You know, in the newsletter this week, I wrote about Touchstone Pictures, which was once an imprint of the Walt Disney Company, and they released movies for grownups that were not animated usually. And that I do think that the studios, as we're in this time of mass conglomeration, should keep developing these little sub branches. Obviously, Universal has focus. Nice to see Clockwerk making more movies. Okay. Speaking of fall film festivals.

Amanda Dobbins

Yeah.

Sean Fennesee

Got a raft of announcements this morning. This is a very busy time of the year for us. Basically, the first week of September through November is pretty intense in terms of the number of movies that we're trying to go see, tell people about on the show. Thinking about the awards races over the ensuing three months after that. You're going to Venice this year?

Amanda Dobbins

I am.

Sean Fennesee

God willing.

Amanda Dobbins

No, it's all. I got my accreditation. I almost forgot.

Sean Fennesee

But what if you get struck by lightning?

Amanda Dobbins

Well, in that case, I won't be there unless the lightning carries me to Venice, which is, I understand, one of its properties.

Sean Fennesee

If you're a Shazam, I think that is one of its properties. The opening film announced Danny Boyle's Inc.

Amanda Dobbins

Cool. Pretty Good. I'm excited.

Sean Fennesee

Yeah, I think that's.

Amanda Dobbins

So I had arranged my travel plans to be able to be there for opening day, which is sometimes a gamble because the opening night film is not always.

Sean Fennesee

What were some recent ones that you went to?

Amanda Dobbins

The strongest? La Grazia.

Sean Fennesee

Oh, wasn't a big fan of that one.

Amanda Dobbins

Yeah. And then Challengers was supposed to open, but then it was waylaid by the strikes, and so there was another. You know, I think the Cannes Opening Night Film Festival was not totally memorable.

Sean Fennesee

That's usually a French film made in the French.

Amanda Dobbins

There's sometimes programming waiting for people to show up. So I was maybe gonna adjust my schedule, but I will be there in time to see Ink, which is great.

Sean Fennesee

Yeah. It's a biopic of a young Rupert Murdoch, I think. Is it when he's operating in Australia or is it when he moves to London?

Amanda Dobbins

I think it's when he purchases the Sun.

Sean Fennesee

Ah, interesting.

Amanda Dobbins

I believe so. Or one of the tabloids. So I think it involves his move to the UK and to Fleet Street.

Sean Fennesee

So Jack o' Connell plays Murdoch.

Amanda Dobbins

No, no, no. Jack o' Connell plays a young journalist, Guy Pearce.

Sean Fennesee

Yes, that's right. Which is even better, honestly.

Amanda Dobbins

And then my girl, Claire Foy.

Sean Fennesee

Huge for you.

Amanda Dobbins

I'm. Listen. Really, really excited. Claire Foy. You want to get into Groany, let me know, okay?

Sean Fennesee

We need photo evidence of that if it happens. This is good news for you because you've been taking some arrows on the Venice lineup over the last couple of weeks.

Amanda Dobbins

Listen, so the artificial was not submitted to any film festivals, though there were oblique suggestions that maybe it will be the secret at the New York Film Festival a la Mardi Supreme. I. I think it's cowardly not to go to Venice, but that's just me.

Sean Fennesee

I mean, in addition to artificial, the Social Reckoning also is not cool because

Amanda Dobbins

it looks like a disaster, which I've been saying since last year. Like, come on. I me seeing the Social Network, the Social Reckoning, jet lagged, alone in Venice is like, great comedic value, great podcast gold. But otherwise that's fine if they need to reshoot it and make it better. Okay by me.

Sean Fennesee

Is there any world where the Social Reckoning gets pushed off its October 9th date after news of those reshoots? It is July 16th.

Amanda Dobbins

Sure. Yes. I mean, everything seems very fluid. And again, I just. I don't understand what's going on with the fall schedule.

Sean Fennesee

It seems a little rickety at the moment. There was also news that behemoth aforementioned will not be at the Venice Film festival, which is bully for me.

Amanda Dobbins

Yeah. Because then you get it at.

Sean Fennesee

Seems like Telluride is the Telluride movie, which is pretty exciting guesses for Venice. I wrote down a couple of movies that I just. In my gut, I'm like, I think these movies are gonna go. And what I wrote down is Cry to Heaven, Tom Ford's next film, which

Amanda Dobbins

seems he's been out and about. He was at Wimbledon sitting next to Anna a lot, but just that, I mean, you know, Tom.

Sean Fennesee

Anna who?

Amanda Dobbins

Tom Ford is a man about town. But being more visible just signals to me that the film is coming.

Sean Fennesee

He's about to make a run. We talked about Here Comes the Flood, the upcoming Denzel Washington, Robert Pat and thriller from Netflix recently. That seems like a movie that could be there. Very starry.

Amanda Dobbins

I think so.

Sean Fennesee

Cliff Booth.

Amanda Dobbins

It can always happen. Fincher has taken his films there. He likes it.

Sean Fennesee

Yes. The Killer played there most recently, and you saw it there. Wild Horse 9 feels like a possibility, maybe even a likely entrant. That's Martin McDonagh's new movie starring John Malkovich and Sam Rockwell. I wrote down Florian Zeller's Bunker, which Sony Pictures Classics picked up. This is the filmmaker behind the Father and the Son. Sure. This movie is not called the Holy Spirit. It's called Bunker. Wasn't a big fan of the Father and the Son.

Amanda Dobbins

The Father was better than the Son. And I think if the father had not taken away Chadwick Boseman's Oscar, then we would feel better about it. But that was just.

Sean Fennesee

I was on the record before that even happened of not really liking the Father. Thought it was a bit of a manipulative film. Nevertheless, Andrew Hayes, A Long Winter also feels like a possibility. That also feels like maybe a Telluride movie. All of us strangers. Did it play both. Did it play Venice and Telluride? I can't recall.

Amanda Dobbins

I didn't see it in Venice.

Sean Fennesee

And then maybe Primetime, the A24 film starring Pattinson, Telluride Guesses, does feel like Behemoth is Happening. It feels like Bucking Faster, the new Werner Herzog movie starring Rooney and Kate Mara as twin sisters who do everything exactly alike, which I'm very intrigued by, was, I guess not rejected from Cannes but rejected from competition.

Amanda Dobbins

Okay.

Sean Fennesee

And so apparently Herzog said, I'm not playing in Directors Fortnite. I'm fucking Werner Herzog. Especially given what we saw at canon competition. Bit of a curious choice.

Amanda Dobbins

I agree.

Sean Fennesee

Maybe Jesse Eisenberg's the debut.

Amanda Dobbins

That would make a lot of sense.

Sean Fennesee

Maybe the Uprising, maybe. Maybe looks a little intense and big. But, you know, Ford versus Ferrari played there occasionally. Sort of. These, like, heavily mounted studio movies will play there. And then some of the other films that I mentioned that are also eligible.

Amanda Dobbins

Yeah, they'll do the jump. They'll do the first few days at Venice and then you can see Bunker

Sean Fennesee

or Long Winter or PrimeTime coming over. Tiff has also been making a wave of announcements. We've just returned from Toronto. Sean Hader's first movie since Coda won Best Picture. Being Human, which is an Apple movie, was announced as the opening gala film. Then a second wave of announcements came today. Alpha Gang with Cate Blanchett. That's the Zellner Brothers new movie. Your Mother. Your Mother, your Mother, with Mahershala Ali, Basim Tarak's movie, which was going to be the team that was going to make Blade. Then Marvel said no to Blade, and then so they made this movie instead. And then a movie, Love of youf Life with Margaret Qualley and Patrick Schwarzenegger, directed by Rachel Morrison, which is an Amazon MGM release. Did you know this movie was happening?

Amanda Dobbins

I did not.

Sean Fennesee

It's coming out in October.

Amanda Dobbins

Okay.

Sean Fennesee

That's also premiering there. Guesses for tiff. What do you think of my guesses?

Amanda Dobbins

This is really good. And number one makes sense and lines up with what I've heard where it will not be. And it's Ben Affleck's Animals. It's good. A crowd pleaser. Yeah, Plays big. That would be the right match.

Sean Fennesee

Star power there. That's a Netflix film. If the Social Reckoning is going to play anywhere, I think it's going to be a TIFF at this point.

Amanda Dobbins

Yeah, but is it going to be done?

Sean Fennesee

I really don't know. This is two months from now. I play Rocky. Feels like a major TIFF movie. Real classic. Crowd pleaser. Sense and Sensibility, the new adaptation.

Amanda Dobbins

Sure.

Sean Fennesee

I thought it could happen at Telluride. I could see that, you know, Focus has played movies there in the past, and this feels ripe for that audience. But I don't know, this feels something, maybe. I think they will tell us a lot about their confidence in the film

Amanda Dobbins

based on where it plays with telly Rider. Tiff. Yeah. I mean, I think it looks very nice. I just, you know, it doesn't apply to me.

Sean Fennesee

It doesn't apply to you. Okay.

Amanda Dobbins

Or I don't apply to it.

Sean Fennesee

Okay. But you'll see it.

Amanda Dobbins

Yeah, of course. And I'm sure I'll even enjoy it, but I just. I think it's important to put, you know, your own warning labels on stuff. And that's. That's my warning label, you know.

Sean Fennesee

Interesting. Okay.

Amanda Dobbins

It's woven into me, the 1995 last

Sean Fennesee

bit of news before we get into the Odyssey.

Amanda Dobbins

Is the Angley Sense and sensibility available on 4K. What's the physical media status of that film?

Sean Fennesee

I certainly own it. On Blu Ray. I don't know if there's a 4K. There might be.

Amanda Dobbins

And not in the criteria.

Sean Fennesee

You know what? Let's look it up right now.

Amanda Dobbins

Okay.

Sean Fennesee

4K. It's not in the Criterion Collection.

Amanda Dobbins

It's disrespectful.

Sean Fennesee

There are other films. There is a 4K available.

Amanda Dobbins

Oh, but you don't own it.

Sean Fennesee

Haven't upgraded.

Amanda Dobbins

That's called sexism.

Sean Fennesee

Well, you know, it's a rolling process of upgrading.

Amanda Dobbins

Okay.

Sean Fennesee

You know, and you can't just do it all at once. It's too expensive. So you have to make strategic choices.

Amanda Dobbins

You don't have to explain that to me.

Sean Fennesee

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Let's see. When did I buy this film on Blu Ray? Probably. Tell me. I don't know. Doesn't matter. New York Film Festival, quickly. Paper Tiger, James Gray's new film coming out. Perfect Sense Fall is opening. Is the opening film at New York Film Festival. Yes. So this is a good thing. Seems like the right place to relaunch that movie.

Amanda Dobbins

Yeah. It's Giving the Irishman premiered at the New York Film Festival. I wanna say, right before the pandemic,

Sean Fennesee

I think that's right.

Amanda Dobbins

And was sort of like a big New York homecoming for everyone. It makes a lot of sense.

Sean Fennesee

I agree. The other films you mentioned, the artificial idea, which I think holds a lot of water. I wrote down the Basics of Philosophy, which is the name of the new Paul Schrader movie. What an incredible title that is. The Basics of Philosophy. God. Still got it. Yeah. Mike Lee, it was announced, has a new film called Tender Loving Care that Bleaker street is putting out in December that I could see there. I feel like New York is missing one mega title. One really noisy movie. I guess maybe artificial could slot in there. But is there anything that springs to mind? Violent Night Two. What do you think is going to get in there?

Amanda Dobbins

I mean, is anything else ready? And does anything else want to do a festival circuit? Because, I mean, that's the other interesting part of this is we're guessing with all of the movies left on the table, but increasingly American films and films that hope to make any sort of money at the box office don't do Festivals, because it doesn't. They don't feel that it makes sense to put the movie out before general audiences can see it. I mean, it's, you know, one of many consequences of Joker 2. Also the evil of the rest of our world.

Sean Fennesee

But that's a really good point. Let's put it all at Joker 2's feet. I think that's the right move. You know, I didn't mention werewolf. I think that's a good example of what you're describing. That's a movie that doesn't need to open at a festival. It doesn't need pre release hype. I saw Evil Dead Burn yesterday and I saw the werewolf trailer on a big screen beforehand and I got more excited. Okay, it looked really, really good on a big screen. Dune Part 3 also almost certainly not going to a film festival. The film we're about to discuss in mere moments did not play at a film festival. And I think there's some questions to be asked about what is the proper utility and future of these enterprises of film festivals. Their relationship to the awards game. It's a chicken or the egg thing where like is Cannes more powerful now or are the Oscars more international because Cannes is more powerful or is Cannes more powerful because the Oscars are more international? You know, and the way that that body has kind of shifted a little bit. You know what I'm saying?

Amanda Dobbins

Yeah, I mean, I think you're right. I think that it's also another consequence just of how movies are shaking out now. And you either have your giant blockbuster, billion dollar or billion dollar aspirational films where that have no relationship to critics or festivals or you know, movie culture, they're going mass and so there's no reason for them to play at a festival. And you, or you have really, really small indie movies that need the festival as the boost. And so I think the festivals are still a funnel for the, the actually successful small movies that work and are maybe one of the only ways that you keep making those movies. I agree, but it's true. You know, many of our favorite Middle of the Road, for instance, Michael Clayton debuted at the Venice Film Festival, however many years ago. And you don't much like, you just don't see movies for grownups and middle road movies. That festival.

Sean Fennesee

Part of the reason why there's so much noise about Behemoth where I'm like, this feels like a quasar. Like I don't, you know, we don't ever hear about movies like this. And of course, like you're citing Tony Gilroy. It took Tony Gilroy 20 more years to come back to do a movie like this. He had made other movies in between, but one of them was a fizzy rom com and one of them was a Jason Bourne movie. And then he made television. So.

Amanda Dobbins

So I don't know whether the, the festivals can subside at the. With the goals that they've set as just being like a life support for small American film. But on the flip side, they do serve as curation for international film. And as the Oscars and like and, you know, as Neon grows and is getting more aggressive in distributing international film in the U.S. maybe that works.

Sean Fennesee

That's an interesting, really interesting point that we probably should circle back to when we get to the end of the year, which is sort of like neon on 824, making this bid to be mid majors. And as they're making that bid, do they need festivals as much as they used to create awareness for their movies? When they're casting Zendaya in their movies, suddenly it's a different mentality. I mean, they'll obviously always have these kind of broad base of different types of films at different budgets, but once those, then you're like, then it's just like Sony Pictures Classics and a couple of other smaller American distributors. And then we're much more reliant on the international fare. But we'll talk about it more as the year goes on. Let's have a strong pivot. It's time. Christopher Nolan's 13th movie, the Odyssey. I'm gonna give the listeners at home a brief recap of the film the Odyssey, which is based on Homer's the Odyssey. Here we go.

Amanda Dobbins

Should we just say right now? Spoilers, spoilers, spoilers, spoilers. If you don't want The Odyssey, a 3,000-year-old poem, and or Christopher Nolan's Odyssey spoiled for you, turn this off right now.

Sean Fennesee

That's right. The Odyssey follows Odysseus, the legendary Greek king of Ithaca, on his long and perilous journey home following the Trojan War, chronicling his encounters with mythical beings and such as the Cyclops sirens and the nymph Calypso, while attempting to reunite with his wife Penelope. So before we discuss our feelings about the film, I thought it'd be useful to talk about Nolan's history with this story. So Many years ago, 2004, Nolan was attached to direct the film Troy. This is fairly early on in his movie career. He'd only made two movies with Hollywood at this point. He had not yet made a Batman film and that movie is the last movie that I can think of that tries to do what this movie tries to do. There have been other swords and sandals epics. There have been other big stage stories. Zack Snyder's 300 springs to mind as an example of a movie like this. But that film, which Nolan felt at the time he was maybe not quite ready to take on, eventually became a Wolfgang Peterson project. And Wolfgang Peterson, interestingly, moved off of the Batman vs Superman movie that he was developing. And Christopher Nolan moved in to direct Batman Begins, which is a film. I think that's a decision. This is a turning point in Hollywood history that I think radically alters where we are right now. Now, Troy was a pretty big hit

Amanda Dobbins

and a TNT classic.

Sean Fennesee

It certainly is. I think it's a pretty well liked movie. It's not bad, okay?

Amanda Dobbins

I mean, Eric Bana is the star,

Sean Fennesee

so he is the star. But it has a lot of nice, meaty roles for folks like Brian Cox and Sean Bean and Brendan Gleeson and a lot of actors who I like seeing in movies like that. And Brad Pitt, memorably Brad Pitt. Orlando Bloom, Diane Kruger. And so this is a big twist of fate. And it also indicates that Nolan, we know Nolan always wanted to make a movie like this. And so I find the timing of this movie very interesting because he's coming off of perhaps the most unbelievable success of his career in Oppenheimer, not because of what the movie is per se, but because of how successful it was insofar as it made $1 billion and it won virtually every Academy Award that

Amanda Dobbins

it was up for and cemented his status as the leader. I mean, he is the president of the DGA currently, but he is also just the statesman of this generation of filmmakers.

Sean Fennesee

And I think he's pretty clearly recognized now as the director of this century, that he is the person who has defined what moviegoing is with his scale and execution. The other thing about this is that this movie has never been made before. And it's so interesting to me that we've been talking all year about how it's like out with the old and in with the new, and there's nothing older than the Odyssey, but there's no movie the Odyssey. There are parts of the Odyssey that have been told in movies, or there have been a lot of influences. And if you look at Harryhausen movies, you can see some of the monsters and figures. Even 2024's the Return is sort of like the back half of the Odyssey, but the Odyssey in full, there's no movie. And Nolan Describes it as an odd gap in movie history. So what an amazing opportunity to leverage this 25 year history of him thinking about doing a big swords and sandals movie. And he steps up to the plate to do this film. It's a $250 million production. I ask you now, what did you think of the Odyssey?

Amanda Dobbins

Well, you set me up beautifully with that Christopher Nolan context, because I do think that this is a perfect Christopher Nolan movie and the perfect Christopher Nolan movie. Now, does that mean that it is perfect? No. And does it mean that it's the best Christopher Nolan movie? I don't know.

Sean Fennesee

I'm not sure yet.

Amanda Dobbins

I'm not sure yet either. We're going to talk about that on Monday. I think it's, you know, pays well to sit with these things Also, you know, that's what we do on this podcast is reassess over and over. But I felt sort of stupid sitting there watching it when I realized that Christopher Nolan has just been making the Odyssey for 20 years. And the first shot of Inception is Leonardo DiCaprio on a beach, washed up on a beach, looking longingly at the dream of his children. And then a godlike figure comes in and intervenes with him. I mean, this is quite textually a reference to the Odyssey, but in everything that he's doing, you know, thematically, a man, a hero, a burdened genius trying to get back to his family with sort of opaque wife characters throughout the land. The blueprint is there and has been there the whole time. I do also think that this movie is an amazing superhero movie, and I mean that as a compliment. I had the experience of watching this movie and seeing things that I had only read about done spectacularly and made real. And I sort of understand what it means then to people who have always read comic books to see Superman, or in Nolan's case, Batman, finally see their dreams realized. And dreams realized so well. So it really does work as a summation of Nolan's career. And, you know, I feel like we've had a lot of projects in the last few years where directors have been waiting forever and ever to make this movie or, you know, it's their dream project. And it doesn't always live up to the expectations or to their own dreams. And on an execution level, I think he nails this out of the park. Ambition, scale, star power, you know, everything below the line. He has, like a crew of close collaborators at this point. It looks beautiful. I thought it was thrilling.

Sean Fennesee

I agree. Yeah, it's a pretty astounding work of art. And it Works in both ways. I think one of the things that distinguishes him from almost any other filmmaker and really, no matter how I feel about him personally over the years in each individual movie, is his movies operate very interestingly as both these kind of smooth brained rollercoaster rides and also these really deep, passionate, sincere thematic adventures. And there's no deeper, more sincere thematic adventure than the Odyssey. And so it's fitting. I couldn't find much evidence of him saying, I want to make the Odyssey over the years. You know, a lot of those directors that you're talking about would say, well, it's been my life's journey to get to this point, to make this kind of film. And he's just kind of always been making this kind of film, as you very smartly point out. But what he is able to build into the movie does feel like something that could only happen for a filmmaker with 30 years of filmmaking under their belt. And if you read about the production of the film, you can see that the only person who seems to have the utmost confidence that it's all going to go according to plan is Christopher Nolan. The actors certainly are like, what is this? And it's really, it's a fun movie to read about, not nearly as much as it is to watch, but it's such an awe inspiring production. And we're in a time when most people who would try to make a movie like this would do so many things with visual effects and computer generated imagery. And he goes so far out of his way to avoid that wherever he can and still without sacrificing the grandeur that is necessary to tell this story. And so there are a dozen moments in the movie where I was like, this is breathtaking. You know, this is just amazing that he makes me feel this way.

Amanda Dobbins

It's so exciting and you know, you can see touches or inspiration from like other filmmakers. It really does feel omnivorous in this wonderful way. In a synthesis of everything that we've seen in the movies, both Nolan's and others. And it just is also, it plays, it is. So it is a blockbuster, like you are going, you know, it's based on an epic poem. And I think there's been so much hand wringing about the accessibility of this from a. From a text perspective or. We all remember being bored out of our minds in high school reading this. Do they even teach it anymore, people in the booth?

Sean Fennesee

They do, yeah.

Amanda Dobbins

Okay, but that's good to hear. I'm glad for your generation.

Sean Fennesee

I read it in full in high school. In fact, Going back to it, I remember reading. I can feel the memory come back, too, though.

Amanda Dobbins

I'm excited to talk about the different translations of it. And I guess all of that's true, but they're just also. There are monsters. There are sex scenes. There is a lot of horror in this in a really accomplished way. The score bangs. It is very funny every time another great character actor shows up and you're like, oh, it's this person. It really. Spectacle is not a bad word, even though it's sometimes used in a dismissive way. This is the. This is hefty spectacle. This is spectacle with weight.

Sean Fennesee

One thing I felt watching the movie for the first time was that because of what you're describing, this feeling, that many people who will sit down to watch the movie will know the beats. And so I do think that there is a moment in the second act where it feels like he is kind of moving through the story fairly quickly. And we're hitting moments, memorable moments. We're hitting Scylla and Charybdis. We're hitting Tiresias prophecy, We're hitting the sirens.

Amanda Dobbins

Sure.

Sean Fennesee

And it's coming at this kind of breakneck pace in a way where it felt a little bit like he was checking boxes to me. Now, it's hard to make a movie of this scope, a story of this scope in under three hours, and he accomplishes that. But the movie pays off that episodic nature so profoundly in the final 40 minutes or so of the movie. And I have been very critical of Nolan's ability to end movies at times. And you were very critical of Oppenheimer's ending. Yes, this is the exact opposite to me. I think this is the most satisfying ending of a movie that he's made.

Amanda Dobbins

I completely agree. You know, I would like to talk about the final three lines of the movie, you know, and in a way, they're more perfect because Christopher Nolan stays Christopher Nolan and completely lands the plane. I found the ending so moving and so revelatory, and, you know, then he does something else, and I was like, well, that's great. You know, it's good to know that we're still with the same guy who can't quite help himself from, you know, jabbing it in your eye a little bit more. What he wants to say, which may be a movie of this scale and size, both in terms of its box office ambitions and its text requires. I felt the shortcuts, too. You know, I felt the. Oh, okay. We did Calypso, like, very, very quickly. But it was interesting to Then go back and read the text. And I did the Emily Wilson translation, which I can't say enough good things about. And that was another revelation just of reading a familiar story in a different way through a different person's eyes and interpretation. But I was surprised by how brief they are in the poem itself and that there is something about what the poem sees as the most important of the stories. You know, the pacing of the poem that actually is pretty accurately reflected in parts of the film, which you didn't need to do. You know, I firmly believe that the more liberties an adaptation takes, the better the adaptation is.

Sean Fennesee

I think there's an important point to be made about that too, because we'll talk about some of the differences from the texts that we've looked at and whether or not we've lost something by changing certain things in the movie, which I think is essential to do to make it work as a movie. But, you know, this is also a story that was told in the oral tradition. And the way that the story became formed through the oral tradition is that parts of the story that were not really working with crowds around fires or in towns would be excised. And so this is not the whole scale, truthful representation of a man named Odysseus who went on a journey. It's a story that was sort of crowdsourced and eventually was kind of chiseled down and put down on paper. But it's not this irrefutable, locked piece of material. It is actually meant to be interpreted and to be re understood over time. And I really, really appreciate what he did with it. And the thing that he did with it, to me, has less to do with what he changed or didn't change in the script, but how he tells the story. And all of Christopher Nolan's films are about time and the loss of time and trying to desperately accomplish something before time runs out. I just sat down to look at following again last night. And even following his very first movie, which is only 69 minutes, is about that feeling. But this movie is in this neat little package with Tenet and Oppenheimer and Dunkirk to some extent. But these three films all have the same editor, Jennifer Lane, and the two of them together have, I would say, evolved his filmmaking style. Where this film has such an intense flash cutting style and the camera very rarely holds on an image for more than 15 seconds at a time. And that sounds like it would be a chaotic Michael Bay commercial nightmare, but in fact, he uses it so skillfully to show us images and then show us that same image an hour later, and then show us that image an hour later as we get more and more context, more and more clarity of the story, more and more depth from the characters, that it does feel like, I think, a pretty meaningful evolution in filmmaking style. And I think one of the reasons why some previous films in the 2010s late 2000s with him was I could feel him, like, grasping for this style, but maybe not totally having control over it. And I don't know if it is the work with Jen Lame that has gotten him to this place, but. And this story is so big, and he has these recurring motifs and images throughout that it felt like the summation of that movement that he was going towards, too. The same thing with, you know, how in Oppenheimer, we kind of blow through the first 30 years of his life in 18 minutes. And it's by using that style, using sound, score, and the way that the images are cut. And this movie does it on an even grander scale. Like, one minute we're in the palace in Ithaca, and then the next second, we're in a different timeline, on a beach on another land with a man roaming by himself. And yet we know that, like, these two characters are twinned. The Telemachus and Odysseus is twinned. And I joke about this kind of thing, but it is total cinema. Like, it is the thing that you're asking for where you're like, bring all the tools of the trade together to make you feel something and understand it at the same time.

Amanda Dobbins

I mean, it is also, again, why this is kind of the perfect Nolan project, even if he wasn't dreaming and talking about his aspirations to make it his. His entire career. But, you know, this is a poem that, to your point, has multiple authors or at least multiple instances of authorship, and is told and created over time. So that relies on different perspectives. It's also a story told in people telling other stories. And so there's memory, there's perspective. There is a lot to communicate that this particular style and the cross cutting can do in terms of, you know, memory as image and things, you know, how memory recurs and how you group things together in your head. And also that this story, you know, does need to go from Ithaca to, you know, to Cersei, to people at the same place trying to make their way to each other. But there are, you know, multiple timelines. To put it in the Crassus, yeah,

Sean Fennesee

it's a twin narrative in the movie. It has multiple perspectives, but it's primarily through the eyes of Odysseus at various stages of his life and career as effectively a general in Agamemnon's army. And so we see moments from the Trojan War and the Trojan Horse, and then there is these series of incidents in which he is trying to return home from the war. And so we see all of those through his eyes, and most of which come during a retelling while he is on an island for seven years with Calypso, which is a shift from the original text, but helpfully allows us to kind of experience those moments in Odysseus story. And then there's also the Telemachus component of the story where Penelope and Telemachus are waiting 20 years for their father and husband to arrive back at Ithaca. And Telemachus, after a certain while, realizing that the suitors that have come for Penelope to rule Ithaca alongside her are eventually going to get pretty impatient and take action. And so he goes out and goes to find his father. And in going to find his father, that opens up these new portals for other people to tell him stories about his father.

Amanda Dobbins

Right.

Sean Fennesee

This is a very ornate, complicated way of telling this story.

Amanda Dobbins

Yeah.

Sean Fennesee

And as I started to kind of go through my mind of, like, what incident happened in what order of the movie, I was kind of marveling at the screenplay. I think it's a pretty phenomenal adaptation because even though we know, like, okay, there's a scene with the Cyclops, like, that scene probably isn't as hard to write as well. What comes immediately after that and what comes immediately after that? I would be curious to know if this is, like, if the film is structured exactly as it was written or if he found things in the edit. In the edit that allowed for this to work more effectively. But nevertheless, like, I was really blown away by it. I think you're making a great point that this is. It's a film that only he could make, and it's a film that he's clearly been working towards in a lot of ways. This is for the end of the conversation. But where to go from here for him is like, I have no idea. I don't know that you can do something bigger and more vast than this movie. You know, it is not. It is quite a stark film. It's not very funny. There's a couple of laugh lines.

Amanda Dobbins

Yeah, but the laugh lines almost stick out.

Sean Fennesee

They do.

Amanda Dobbins

As if they weren't on the page or, you know, it wasn't planned. But then you need to lean into it and, you know, they are. They are. I chuckled.

Sean Fennesee

You're Relying on the star Personas of people too, to kind of make moments with their dialogue readings or something like that.

Amanda Dobbins

Yeah, no, this is not a world of, of humor. The stakes are quite serious. This is, and again, to me it's, it's like a great match with Nolan. A very serious and self serious filmmaker has picked, has just finally gone full epic. And if there are jokes in the original Homer poem, you know, they don't, comedy doesn't translate over that many years. So I, I, I think it matches well.

Sean Fennesee

Well, similarly, it's not a very silly movie because there could be a version of the Odyssey that prominently features the gods. Like the gods could be visually represented and only one God is really visually represented in this movie, Athena. But you could visually represent the gods and you could have Zeus on the mountaintop throwing lightning bolts and you could have Poseidon rise from beneath the sea.

Amanda Dobbins

Right.

Sean Fennesee

And he dispenses with all that, which is smart. It's very smart. And it makes it feel more like a kind of cosmic doom surrounds Odysseus as opposed to an actual, you know, creature of some kind is determining their fate. And it also kind of calls into question the sanity of the characters because these are articles of faith. Right. Most of what they're discussing are not these corporeal representations of power. They're just ideas that the citizens have of these communities.

Amanda Dobbins

Which then also sets up something that I think the movie does incredibly well, which is, opens up what the characters are arguing about in a very temporal, contemporary Greek sense to modern times. And it's about ways of living and what are your beliefs and what are your philosophies and what do you value? You not value. And if you have Zeus there yelling about Zeus's law, or Xenia or you didn't make, you didn't wash the feet the right way. The more you literalize it, the further it, you know, seems to a modern audience. But when you just make it about how do you treat a stranger and how do you create a world that you want to live in? It's incredibly resonant.

Sean Fennesee

I totally agree. It makes the movie more. The movie's primary theme ultimately, I think, is the erosion or destruction of civilizations and how frequently aggression and war lead to these erosions and they kind of deepen them even further. The movie is very, very modern in multiple ways. It is very clearly speaking to a contemporary time with this idea. It's also using colloquial language like dad and stuff. Those are two words that appear in the movie. And I think that's probably smart to both ground a contemporary audience and also to make those same connections that you're describing so it feels like it's legible. But by not having the gods in the movie, but also having the traditions of the gods, the ideas of the gods, the sort of morality of the gods, it means it's up to the people to make the choices to do the things that are right. And so the movie is very consumed by the moral stature of this Greek society. And if it's being broken, why is it being broken? And who can save it? I think who can save it is something that amuses you a little bit.

Amanda Dobbins

Sure. Well, who's responsible for it all? And I found that the conclusions of that part of the movie to be very profound. And then the. Yeah, there's a. You know, the burden of genius runs through every single Christopher Nolan movie. And it. And it goes through this as well. I mean, that is also textually accurate. Like Odysseus is described as the most. The clever and most greatest of warriors. The poem itself is. Does not communicate as much internal psychology as. Or no. Or not that I picked up in the translation as, you know, and as we have become accustomed to as, you know, therapized children of the modern world. But again, I just think it's. I think it's very clever that he actually picked this text where it allows him a springboard to, you know, use very, very big set pieces, inspectable to interrogate the things that he is clearly quite interested in and has been.

Sean Fennesee

I want to talk a bit about the actors. And, like, we'll have to figure out the best way to have this conversation because we can talk about each sequence, most of which are pretty breathtaking. Plus this raft of movie stars that are strewn throughout the movie. Some in big parts, some in very small parts. But the decision to cast Matt Damon's pretty crucial. Yeah, to me, it did two things aside from just casting a tremendously dependable movie star. One, it means that every single character in this movie is speaking with an American accent because Matt Damon is not doing an accent. And that means that everyone needs to sound like Matt Damon. And if you watch movies from the 50s or 60s or 70s where you've got one character doing a German accent, one character doing a British accent, frequently in movies like this, everyone does British. Brad Pitt tries to do British in Troy. That's incoherent because it's in Greece. But this choice, I think, also modernizes the movie. If this were Tom Hardy or Cillian Murphy, two actors who I could very much also see playing Odysseus in totally different registers. I think the movie's different, and I think that if the movie is British, it's weirdly not as effective because of what Nolan's intentions are. Do you agree with that?

Amanda Dobbins

I do agree with that. I think also when you're. When you're casting each of those actors, I mean, you named Cillian Murphy and Tom Hardy, but they are bringing different relationships to the audience and different assumptions of how you're interpreting Odysseus than Damon does.

Sean Fennesee

Yes.

Amanda Dobbins

And you're rooting for Matt Damon.

Sean Fennesee

That's it.

Amanda Dobbins

You're always rooting for Matt Damon, even when you're not supposed to be rooting for Matt Damon. See, the talented Mr. Ripley and the Informant, exclamation point. And the movie uses that so well. But it's essential because otherwise, this is a character who otherwise makes a lot of decisions where you're like, sir, really?

Sean Fennesee

It complicates the text to make him so likable. Yeah, Matt Damon is very likable, and he's very easy to root for as a movie star. And he has played bad guys. He played a bad guy in a Christopher Nolan movie. He's very good in Interstellar. But Odysseus not only makes poor choices, but he's arrogant, and he makes those poor choices out of a sense of accomplishment. And he's a trickster and he's a bit venal and daemon. Doesn't really play him that way. He plays him slightly more innocent and then ultimately faithful.

Amanda Dobbins

Yeah.

Sean Fennesee

And I'll say it's a pivot from the text that is fascinating because it does strike me that this is how Nolan sees all of his protagonists. He does not see them as men with ill intention. Oppenheimer is one of the most controversial people of the 20th century. He's responsible for creating something that led to this destruction of cities and lives, thousands and thousands of lives. But he has sincere empathy for Oppenheimer in the film, and he ends that movie portraying his regret instead of something else.

Amanda Dobbins

Yeah.

Sean Fennesee

And this movie similarly, even though Odysseus is just kind of an archetypal character, he's like a wily trickster, but in

Amanda Dobbins

almost every instance, it takes away the responsibility of Odysseus from his actions and. Or tries to smooth them and make them more relatable, which I think is wise, again, from trying to translate this to a modern audience. You read the original poem, and it's just a. It's a picture of a completely different society. That treats men, women, people who are not aristocrats, by which I mean, you know, enslaved people, like, very differently. Like, the morals, the way. It's just. It is a foreign world and, you know, that's. That's the way they lived and necessary, I guess, to the. To the times or to the organization. But so. But the Odysseus in the poem is not someone who you could identify with because you would never be in a situation where you just need to, like, stick around on a witch's island for a year and have a torrid love affair because your men need to rest after being turned into pigs. You know, you're just. It's so. I think it's savvy to your point. It is very much in keeping with, certainly, Oppenheimer and with Nolan movies in general, where they are protagonists, pun intended, who take on great challenges and really do feel like both the triumphs and the ills of the world are their creation. And that involves both pride and guilt. And I turn to you as we walked out of our first screening of the Odyssey of Christopher Nolan's the Odyssey. We've seen it twice. And I asked you, like, a little bit tongue in cheek, but also sincerely, and I went home and asked Zack this as well. Like, do you as a man, just walk around being like, this is all great, but it's also all my fault? Like, there is something that all of his characters do that assumes some responsibility, but not all of it. And there's a hubris, there's an ambition. I think those are twins. You can't really have one without the other. At least in a realistic world that I find a little amusing. But also, I think I find it alien.

Sean Fennesee

I don't relate because I don't see myself as a great man. It's really that simple. I think if you look at Batman's burden, Batman sets out to find identity for himself. And in doing so, he feels that fighting crime and making the world more safe is a reason to be alive. And in doing so, he draws out all these freaks who want to defeat him. And then those freaks tend to make Gotham crazy. So the inextricable relationship between Batman and the Joker is the same thing that you're describing here. The same thing is true of Oppenheimer. The same thing is true of. Of Leonardo DiCaprio's character in Inception, who's desperate to go back to a more innocent time with his family, but also has this extraordinary power. And that power can mean something really special for the world if he uses it correctly. The same is true in Interstellar, a man who abandons his family to go on a journey, and by the time he returns home, he's, if not forgotten, a figure of some controversy. He does it in every movie and it's easy to psychologize. This is a guy who goes on journeys to go make movies. Now it's a family affair. His wife is a producer. It sounds like his kids go with him, but there's something going on, maybe his parents, maybe there's something in his life that makes him return to this structure over and over and over again. There's always a watchful older figure. Michael Caine played this role in all these films. There's always somebody who sort of like, maybe he had an uncle who was very insightful, who gave him some guidance. In this film, John Leguizamo plays that character. He's this sort of like watchful, protective, seer type figure who stays guard at the palace. Like these frameworks recur over and over again because he no doubt relates to them. I'm just a guy with a podcast, you know, that's not something that I really see.

Amanda Dobbins

One thing that I don't mean to judge him for it. And I mean, I guess I do judge him for it all the time. That's the history of podcasting. But the great man trope is recurring and I do think it's amusing to me. I think it's fascinating. I think it's also what, you know, western stories and movies are based on, both textually and in terms of people being like, yeah, I can make this three hour epic and not use effects and film in the craziest locations in the world. You need that ambition. So I do respect it. I thought it was interesting in this movie. And a choice I liked in this movie is that some of that same ambition is applied to Penelope, the. His wife, his long suffering wife. Her character. And, you know, it was funny even in those moments. She has kind of two standoffs with her son Telemachus. Penelope is played by Anne Hathaway, just soaring heat. And Telemachus is played by Tom Holland, using an American accent. And she's, you know, she is a frustrated person. She is a woman in a man's world and she's, you know, being pushed around by all of these people and she expresses some desire to, to be in charge of things herself. She also kind of tells off her son a couple times in ways where I was like, this is a little intense. I don't, you know, but it was interesting then to realize that I Don't have the great woman complex either, you know, and I was interested to see him assigning it to both characters. I think that's a new and positive development in what has been a pretty historically complicated character to unwind for modern audiences.

Sean Fennesee

Yeah, I think that is them. To modernize that strain of the story.

Amanda Dobbins

To make it as much as you can.

Sean Fennesee

Yeah, I think to just make it more sympathetic and to make us understand a little bit more how Penelope should be operating maybe in our modern times as someone with a little bit more agency or a little bit more desire. This sort of like this feeling like she should have the right to, if not claim her husband, which is what she really wants. She wants her husband to come in, but if that's not going to happen, how can she secure her own fate in a life that she wants to lead? I think if it's not Anne Hathaway, I don't know if that character works as well.

Amanda Dobbins

Sure.

Sean Fennesee

Because she really is. She's a very skilled actor. One of my very favorite actors in the universe. But she is really good at going big. And like this reading of Penelope is very like sucking on your teeth and like daggers for eyes, like staring down Tom Holland and then just kind of burning him alive with her words. And she does this a couple times. She gets a couple of moments with Odysseus where she's sort of more open and sensitive and they show their love to each other. But she's a very fierce character and you need a very fierce actor to do it. And in the wrong hands, I think it could have gone pretty terribly. I would say the writing is a little bit weaker in the Penelope scenes. And I find this in most Nolan movies. I find he kind of struggles to write women like this. And I was grateful that she was in the part. That's what I'll say. Yeah.

Amanda Dobbins

I mean, I do think that it's. I was giving points for improvement, you know, and also because I did see the intent of trying to do something different with this character. A character who in the text just like, you know, sits at home. The traditional, you know, Oscar nominated performance of the wife.

Sean Fennesee

Yeah, Kitty Oppenheimer.

Amanda Dobbins

Yeah, totally. So I liked it. And I agree that, you know, just watching Anne Hathaway cook and eat Tom Holland alive. Not literally, but pretty much.

Sean Fennesee

Yeah. I mean, other creatures eat things alive, for sure. We're speaking in big thematic, historical structures around adaptation and ideas. But as I said, this is a big dumb action movie as well. Totally. And after you get through the first roughly 20 minutes, or so, which features a lot of exposition and kind of scene and community setting around where Penelope is at this moment in time after Odysseus has been gone for all these years and what her relationship is to her son. You know, we get launched into the action.

Amanda Dobbins

Yeah.

Sean Fennesee

And very quickly we are shown Odysseus on the beaches trying to remember his life and starting to tell his own story. And is the Cyclops really the first true adventure that we get after he leaves the shores of battle after 10 years and decides to set out with his men? And when he sets out with his men, he does so on his own terms. He doesn't follow Agamemnon. He goes on his own path. And Himesh Patel, who's wonderful in this movie as his second in command, is skeptical right from the jump. Which I think shows us how we should regard Odysseus in the movie as someone who's a little brazen and has his own ideas. And not all those ideas work. But very quickly they start realizing that they need to hit land so that they can restock their food and water.

Amanda Dobbins

Yeah.

Sean Fennesee

And every time they show up on the shore somewhere something terrible happens. You know, I don't think he has one good landing spot across this entire journey.

Amanda Dobbins

Well, Calypso. Debatable.

Sean Fennesee

Good point.

Amanda Dobbins

Yeah. I want to talk more about. We'll talk more about Calypso.

Sean Fennesee

Yeah, we will. Yeah. She's very special. The Cyclops is. I thought this worked phenomenally well. Yeah. I've gotten some feedback from people who didn't like this as much because it's a combination of a puppet and a human performance from the actor Bill Irwin. And the Cyclops is something that is probably the single most memorable monster from all of Homer's stories and one that has been rendered on screen many times. This is the most human esque version I think that I've seen in a movie. And the sequence has changed quite a bit from what's in the poem, specifically like what this character, what Odysseus does to trick the monster. But I thought it was very involving and I wasn't taken out of it at all by the puppetry or the effects work or anything like that. And, you know, shooting inside of that cave with the flock of sheep I thought was fantastic.

Amanda Dobbins

I loved it. I mean, you know, it is very classical horror tropes of don't go into that cave and is made in just that way. But no, you know, we should say the film opens with a title card that says in a time of apparent magic, which I Thought of in a Time of Great Mischief and the Secret Agent. But also I did think was tone setting in a way that I'm not going to be seeing. It is fantastical.

Sean Fennesee

It is.

Amanda Dobbins

And so I guess I was sitting there thinking, like, oh, wow, that's a real person. They're doing this practically. Or that's a puppet. And this is. I was thinking excitedly, this is not cgi. So I guess that works for people. But I will always just be pumped when I realize that something is not CGI and they tried something.

Sean Fennesee

Yeah, I agree. I think choosing Bill Irwin, who, in addition to being an actor who people recognize from movies like Rachel Getting Married, is also a mime. And so his ability to kind of affect. Is it Polyphemus.

Amanda Dobbins

What is that?

Sean Fennesee

The name of the cyclops? The cyclops is a weird. Because, you know, he's the son of Poseidon and he's this sort of half man, half creature, half God.

Amanda Dobbins

Right. He makes cheese.

Sean Fennesee

He makes cheese and he can speak. You know, the change from the poem is interesting. You know, there's a famous thing where he tells the cyclops Odysseus that his name is Nobody.

Amanda Dobbins

No man.

Sean Fennesee

Yeah, no man. So that when he pokes his eye out and he's writhing in pain on the ground, he says, nobody hurt me. No man hurt me. And no one comes to save him. And that's how they escape. And the movie dispenses with that and it creates just. Actually, I think what you said is right, is more of like a horror escape sequence where you're sort of like racing away from the monster. That I thought was effective, but that was one of the very few things from the book you remembered that. I remembered when I was watching the movie, I was waiting for him, waiting for Matt Damon to pull some trickery. And it's much more of just an escape from a big creature.

Amanda Dobbins

And then Odysseus, you know, turns back to poke him once again and to further shoots his arrow, anger the cyclops, so that the cyclops then chases them and, you know, and they lose some men, which also featured my favorite bit of puppetry or seat or acting, which was just the grimace on the cyclops's face before. And that was genuinely really funny. Really, really, really good stuff. And again, they're filming in some beautiful beach and he's throwing things and it all looks pretty real. I was very pro.

Sean Fennesee

Yeah, I mean, I think it's probably worth noting that the film, I think, is in seven countries on at least two continents, maybe three continents. It's in Morocco, Greece, Italy, Iceland. The Falls Lake water tank on the Universal Studios lot, which I've been to, and Scotland. And that it's not easy to film in places like this and not everyone can do it, but if you can do it, you should do really, really helps this film on a consistent basis.

Amanda Dobbins

Transcendent.

Sean Fennesee

There are several moments when they're out at sea when the camera pulls way back to show the epic scale of the ships that have been constructed.

Amanda Dobbins

I mean, one of the shots looks like a Turner painting. There's another one when Odysseus is just alone on the beach. And it's just like the grand scale of it. The palace in Ithaca, which I believe is in an island off Sicily, the Goat island is like magnificent. It is, you know, and these are. These are real places. Commit to the shot. Tempo.

Sean Fennesee

Hold your finish.

Amanda Dobbins

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Sean Fennesee

goes on his journey to learn more about his father, he goes to Menelaus, Agamemnon's brother, who is settled back in his throne years ago.

Amanda Dobbins

Love you doing Homer.

Sean Fennesee

Thank you. This is my interpretation. Step aside, Emily W. And he sits and has a meal with Menelaus and Helen. And Menelaus tells him the story of the Trojan horse. First of all, Bernthal, I loved it. I wasn't sure if I was gonna love it. I was a little concerned when I saw the earliest material of this, of the hey, dad and stuff, and the colloquial stuff that you find throughout the movie. But his demon energy, I think, is very well suited. His aggro bro energy is what you might think a figure like him would be like if he were transported to modern times. And so him telling this story and then the way that this.

Amanda Dobbins

The younger cucked brother.

Sean Fennesee

Yes, very much so. Somebody who's not totally fulfilled despite being married to Helen. The Trojan War shit is unreal. Now, we saw this early on, before the movie came out, but the realization of it, again, done entirely practically. And I think a lot of times when you watch representations of this story on screen, even in animation, everything seems easy and what this movie shows you is that everything at this time in history was hard. And that surviving inside of the horse would have been nearly impossible. That the piss and the shit that you would have been surrounded by. The way that they would check the horse when they're drawing it into the city with the blades, people would become injured and die. People would die inside of the horse. Getting the horse up into the city across these hundreds of logs that are set up from the shores would be hard. Like, there is physical toll in everything that happens in the world that the movie goes out of its way to show. It doesn't just say, like, it doesn't yada, yada, anything. It might have a fast cutting style that moves you through it quickly. But they built all this stuff.

Amanda Dobbins

Yeah. And now it's on display outside the Universal CityWalk.

Sean Fennesee

Yes.

Amanda Dobbins

This is electric. This is when I just kind of. My spirit left my body. Because, you know, the Trojan horse is a reference point. Like not a pop culture, like a cultural idea that has been repeated so many times in so many different ways and has become a part of our language. So you do forget that it's a real thing that could be made and constructed and elongated. The sequence comes at like exactly one hour into the movie, which I think is so smart. Like, I checked my watch, but I just really appreciated the clockwork of that. And it's. It is. It's thrilling. It is upsetting to your point, you know, and it uses his other movies, like the Dunkirk. Dunkirk. In the horse instead of the ship, there is this. There are these nice callbacks throughout that I found very exciting.

Sean Fennesee

And

Amanda Dobbins

you just kind of can't believe what you're watching. And then it does turn into just like full blown battle sequence, right? With Bernthal and Daemon, like screaming and lots of arrows and.

Sean Fennesee

Well, it's very briefly like an espionage film when they break out, you know, and they set their plan to sort of open the castle gates and let their soldiers storm in. And, you know, I didn't. I really liked the second time around. I really liked that part. And showing how they sort of. The geography of the movie is very coherent, where you constantly know where characters are going and what it is that they're attempting to. Which can be confusing in movies like this sometimes, especially ones that are cut this way. But then when it does tear into battle and you watch Agamemnon walk through those gates and hundreds of men streaming behind him.

Amanda Dobbins

You had some notes about Agamemnon's armor, but I think in that setup, when the gates Are wide.

Sean Fennesee

I think it looks great. I appreciate. Is it Ellen Mirojnik that was the costume designer? I honor her efforts. I've been told it's not historically accurate. I don't really care about that. I think it's very funny that he cast Benny Safdie as Agamemnon, who. If you've met Benny Safdie, you would not say he strikes the same pose that that character does. But I think that's very intentional because of Agamemnon's fate, you know, and the kind of. Who is ultimately behind a helmet like that during war. And what does a man like that represent?

Amanda Dobbins

Actually, the only moment that you see the man behind the helmet is a very crucial moment when he's laid bare. I did want to talk about arrows for a second.

Sean Fennesee

Sure. I mean, arrow corner.

Amanda Dobbins

Yeah, arrow corner. Well, I just. How are we so instantly killing everybody with an arrow until we're not. You know, there is an inconsistency on that. You know, sometimes you shoot a guy and they just. They, like, fall right down. And then at other points, Odysseus has, like, three arrows sticking out of him. And he's.

Sean Fennesee

He's a great warrior, obviously.

Amanda Dobbins

So it's really just about your own personal metal as to whether the arrow can get you. Are they dipped in any sort of poison?

Sean Fennesee

Not seemingly. Not in this film.

Amanda Dobbins

Okay.

Sean Fennesee

I think we know that Odysseus is a great archer.

Amanda Dobbins

We do know that. And he has precision. And so it's just about. Is it just about where you get hit?

Sean Fennesee

I think so.

Amanda Dobbins

But, like, if you got hit right now, if you got hit in the eye with an arrow.

Sean Fennesee

Jack, get the bow and arrow.

Amanda Dobbins

Are you instantly dead or are you just really, really mad?

Sean Fennesee

Yeah, if I caught an arrow in the eye, in all likelihood, it's going to my brain. So I think that would be problematic.

Amanda Dobbins

But do you think that's instant death? I think that's what I'm asking. Why isn't there kind of more like zombies?

Sean Fennesee

Why is this important to you?

Amanda Dobbins

I found myself wondering. Because there was a lot of bow and arrows. Because they're picking people off before they can get to the gates of trial

Sean Fennesee

to open that neck, head and heart. You're going down for the count. Anywhere else, I think it's survivable.

Amanda Dobbins

Okay. They use what they had.

Sean Fennesee

This is the convenience of action movie storytelling.

Amanda Dobbins

Totally. I just.

Sean Fennesee

I'm just like, guy gets hit with arrow and he's out.

Amanda Dobbins

I was that engaged with the battle that I was wondering about the mechanics of bow and arrows. Also, the mechanics of bow and arrows are essential to the plot of Homer's Odyssey and Christopher Nolan's Odyssey.

Sean Fennesee

We will get there. The Trojan horse story. We return to that moment a few times. The beheading of Athena's statue. And when we're watching it the first time, we have this incredible feeling of excitement and grandeur. The good guys are about to win. They're storming the castle and they're gonna take over. And then you realize as you go through the rest of the film and we return visually to those moments over and over again, that this is one of the worst things that's ever happened to Odysseus, that him being a part of this incredible epic triumph in war has destroyed civilization, has destroyed his psyche, has destroyed his perception of what it is to be human. You know, as you said, like, that's not really in the poem.

Amanda Dobbins

None of it is.

Sean Fennesee

That reading of the character is really interesting. It's really quite insightful and a way to change what's the Odyssey can be to us. Because we're living in a time of unjust wars right now. We're living in a time of people being killed for very bad reasons. And I love that he uses what in any other Hollywood product would have just been the moment of greatest triumph for our hero, where we just.

Amanda Dobbins

Achilles is the great hero in Nolan fashion. You see it twice. And so, you know, we can talk about, like, the second. The second viewing of the sacking of Troy from a slightly different perspective when we get to it. But the fact that you have already lived through it from Menelaus point of view and you experience the victory and then the victory is eroded for two hours is, I think, really special.

Sean Fennesee

It's incredibly smart. You know, we eventually return back to Odysseus, Odysseus beacons visiting many islands. And I like this part of the movie, but I do feel like this is the part of the movie, even the second time around, I was like, okay, we're going through the stages of each moment in the Odyssey. So we are going to see the Lestrygonians, the giant soldiers who in this film are wearing this massive armor. They're not quite cannibals as portrayed in the poem, but they are these terrifying figures who are overwhelming Odysseus men as they're seeking, I guess, a herd of, I don't know, goats to eat. Is that what they. What they're following? Sheep. Sheep.

Amanda Dobbins

They don't even make it to the sheep on this one. The sheep are. This one. They Just. They see the one wailing child. No, no, no. This is the child.

Sean Fennesee

That's right.

Amanda Dobbins

Who screams quite loudly. Who can relate? Me. And then all of the adult soldiers who are featured pretty prominently on the posters, and it just looked like really giant.

Sean Fennesee

They do intense horses. I assume those are all just giant men.

Amanda Dobbins

I didn't know whether there was maybe some stilts and some, like, trench work going on. They've. They battle in a forest. So there are lots of different ways that you can. Height differences, but, I mean, it's. They just go nuts.

Sean Fennesee

It's the most classically swords and sandals moment in the movie, I would say, where it's just like big, scary guys battling little guys and chasing them down the mountain. And many men are killed. An entire ship is destroyed by these figures who are just marauding the ship. It's very exciting. It has the most typically propulsive score from Ludwig Goransson. It feels more like Tenet than it does the rest of this film, which is using the music throughout, I thought was fantastic. I really feel like he's an Heir to the 1940s and 50s Film composers who knew how to swell you. You know, he's using much more modern styles. But in this movie, Goranson uses, like, the aulos, I think, is what it's called, which is like a dual reeded woodwind instrument. And so he cuts these two different sonic styles. One that's just like pure war drums, and one that is this more like the lyre and that instrument to sort of like Transport you back 3,000 years, to make you feel like you're listening to something old. And so the movie keeps doing that, too, where each sequence, you know, Circe follows the Lysagonians.

Amanda Dobbins

And that's more goats, I think. Pigs. Yeah. I don't know.

Sean Fennesee

There are many creatures on that.

Amanda Dobbins

Well, there are lions, tigers and bears. Oh, my.

Sean Fennesee

Leopards and panthers.

Amanda Dobbins

Sure.

Sean Fennesee

Those are of course, actually real people who have been transformed by Circe. And the Circe sequence is yet another island and they're kind of crashing ashore and they're looking for food. They're lost. They're looking for food. What year are we in now in their journey? Year six, seven. It's been a long time that they've been at sea. And this is Nolan's first true horror movie, this sequence. Samantha Morton plays Cersei and she leads Odysseus Men. And this is also a moment where Odysseus has essentially been mutinied.

Amanda Dobbins

Right. They're getting fed up.

Sean Fennesee

They're sick of his shit. And all the bad choices he's been making. And, you know, for the sickos like me, I was like, yes, yes. When the men start eating the stew,

Amanda Dobbins

it was so gnarly in the way, like very, very gross. And again, sort of practic, you know, they're using. It's sort of meat, squid like stuff that turns tentacles.

Sean Fennesee

And as Cersei starts shaping the men's faces into pigs, it reminded me a lot of the transformation scene in An American Werewolf in London, which is also done practically and it felt like a Rick Baker makeup sequence. And I'm sure that there were effects that were used on that in post. But doing something like that and showing you just enough to make you uncomfortable and to feel disgusted but not so much that it breaks the illusion of what's happening is a real feat. Now, Cersei is also somewhat different in this adaptation, right?

Amanda Dobbins

Yeah, well abbreviated and so Cersei also, there was a. A bestselling, a wildly popular recontextualization, a novel in the last 10 years called Circe that is told from her point of view. And, you know, that expands and gets into, I think, you know, non canon territory, which is fine. But I do, as previously noted, think that this film allides the year long, passionate love affair that she and Odysseus have after the pigs are turned and the pigs are turned back to men.

Sean Fennesee

Why do you think that is? Why do you think it elides it? Because this movie doesn't want to show Matt Damon fucking Samantha Morton.

Amanda Dobbins

No. You think that's it? I think it's because he's only. He has to be true to Penelope.

Sean Fennesee

That's my point. We don't see Odysseus getting down with all these ladies. There are multiple moments across the story where like Odysseus arrives on shore and women are ogling him because he's such a. A beautiful, epic warrior. And he's like, no, no, ladies, I

Amanda Dobbins

only have eyes for home. Yeah. And for Penelope, which if Penelope is Anne Hathaway, I get it. You know, I guess also story time. I mean, you just mentioned at this point in the story, they've been at sea for like six or seven years. We've not seen six or seven years worth of content. You know, we don't see any of the mundane of these people need to sleep and eat and do all the things that is indicated in the Cersei portion. But yeah, she doesn't really get redeemed, but she's not evil either. He's sympathetic.

Sean Fennesee

There's a component of Sympathy. I agree with you. And I think this kind of extends to every character in the movie. Maybe not Scylla, but most of the characters in the movie are seen as complicated and flawed, but not evil. I guess Robert Pattinson's character is the one character who is truly Snidely Whiplash. Old school movie villain. And, you know, as we're going through these journeys, eventually Odysseus travels to Hades, but before he does that, we see more from Telemachus and the more time he spends with Menelaus and him trying to figure out as he's traveling with Mentor, what he should do and where he should go. And it's happening opposite Pattinson's character, Antinous, who is, I guess, a local nobleman who is attempting to become Penelope's husband.

Amanda Dobbins

Yeah, he's one of the most aggressive suitors, though. There are dozens of them. And they're drinking all the wine and eating all the food and bullying other people.

Sean Fennesee

Let's say Zack unexpectedly kicks the bucket. God forbid that doesn't happen. I would be devastated, but let's just say it happens. That's what you would do.

Amanda Dobbins

Well, do I know is the thing. Because that's the other question. Like, they don't know what has happened to Odysseus, and all they can rely on are strangers tales, and Zach's been

Sean Fennesee

gone for 20 years. Are you hosting 12 suitors?

Amanda Dobbins

I mean, no, if I can possibly help it, because Penelope also seems pretty pissed off they're using all of her supplies. She's. I mean, the. The management system in this home is. Is more archaic and relies on slave labor.

Sean Fennesee

But maybe don't trust me at Goth as well in my.

Amanda Dobbins

Considering then I gotta feed all these people. I gotta be in charge of this stuff. No, absolutely not. You know, one husband.

Sean Fennesee

What if Pattinson was one of the guys?

Amanda Dobbins

Well, yeah, Pattinson in his skirt was just conspicuously shorter than all the other skirts.

Sean Fennesee

You noticed that?

Amanda Dobbins

I did.

Sean Fennesee

Interesting.

Amanda Dobbins

I tried to point them out to you. You can see those nice knees.

Sean Fennesee

Is that something you're looking for in a man?

Amanda Dobbins

Well, I didn't know until I saw it, but I think that not everyone has nice kn. And not all the knees are on display, but he's just. He's gallivanting.

Sean Fennesee

Not really a knee guy.

Amanda Dobbins

Again, I didn't.

Sean Fennesee

I think my knees are fine.

Amanda Dobbins

Okay. I have no knowledge of what they look like, and I don't need to know.

Sean Fennesee

I'll give you a look later. Um, I. I do think that this. This part of the story. I think Is okay. I, I, it's not suitor stuff. Yeah, it's not my favorite. Um, I think it's, I think it's very broad. It's very broad. It exists for a very obvious reason, which is that Zeus's law and the sort of the golden rule, which is so crucial to understanding how ultimately these characters feel at the end of the story is kind of returned to over and over again. That Penelope sort of has to host these suitors because it is the nature of the community at this time. And this idea that if a beggar comes to your door, you have to welcome that person in. You can't turn them away because of Zeus's law. And we see Telemachus refer to it. You know, we see characters throughout the story say that there was a kind of politess that is essential to hold civilization together.

Amanda Dobbins

Xenia. Which is really the only. Xenia. Sorry if I'm not saying it correctly, but that's the only thing they taught us when we read this in school. And I didn't care then. And I agree with you that I don't totally relate to it in the very literal terms of the movie. You know, it also exists because they need to present a challenge and a conflict to Penelope. Otherwise she would just either wait patiently for Odysseus and or be like, hello, Robert Pattinson and your nice niece.

Sean Fennesee

She's just a damsel otherwise.

Amanda Dobbins

And I think that they, you know, otherwise the conflict when Odysseus. There's no conflict once Odysseus gets home. And it's not, it's just a happy homecoming and like he made it, show's over.

Sean Fennesee

I wouldn't excise it. I don't think it's more just that it's played very broadly. But it's a chamber piece. It's not an action set piece. And so the broad stuff in this chamber piece is maybe a little bit less effective. I do think that he makes this great choice to kind of constantly be shooting Anne Hathaway from behind these kind of veiled circumstances. The threading that she's working on, or that sort of sliding door that she sits behind.

Amanda Dobbins

The modesty screen.

Sean Fennesee

Yes, the modesty screen. Interesting.

Amanda Dobbins

I don't know if that's what they called it, but, you know, I thought it was a very clear architectural representation of the societal divides that are forced upon. And she's only allowed to be in certain rooms and in certain places.

Sean Fennesee

Very much.

Amanda Dobbins

It was clever. And also the, and also marriage, you know, the Trojan gates.

Sean Fennesee

That's right. But also that women are meant to be desired but not engaged with. You know, so it's effective. It's just whenever the movie pivots back to those scenes, I'm like, okay, well when are we, you know, when are we going to Hades? When are we going to meet? When are we gonna see Sinon, who we have not mentioned yet, Elliot Page's character? When are we gonna see his rise from the dead? When are we gonna see Agamemnon come and tell his tale? When are we gonna see Tiresias give his prophecy? I love this scene. This is again, this is the third scene in a row that you could comfortably call a horror sequence. And obviously this stuff is all in the text, but he shoots this fantastically. The sort of the blood sacrifice across the shield and then sipping from the blood and the dirt and makeup that is applied to the actors faces in this scene.

Amanda Dobbins

I think this is in Iceland, so it's just kind of a barren cold and black. Yeah, and very beautiful. But communicating the underworld.

Sean Fennesee

Yes. I loved this part. I think the performances from all three of the actors in this scene are fantastic. I think it's a challenge in the story that you can't really get around the prophecy and it's not a flaw of the movie, but it is just an essential part of the movie where the movie tells you what's going to happen in the movie next and what they tell you is exactly what happens. So I don't know if you felt this way, but I certainly felt this way where Tiresias gives his prophecy and he says, you will encounter the Sirens and you should not listen to their song, because it will.

Amanda Dobbins

I disagree, I think for a number of reasons, because I think that including the prophecy then sets up Odysseus attempts to subvert it, which are fruitless, but, you know, an interesting wrinkle. And the prophecy comes right after the most direct accounting and the most emotional accounting of the ways that Odysseus has just failed people and betrayed people. You have, you know, Sinan speaking, like with great regret and hurt about, you know, I was used and you lied to me. And you see what have otherwise been sort of, you know, mythological exploits and decisions related on like a very person to person, human cost. And then, you see, then Agamemnon is. Puts forth kind of the. The uselessness of all of this in a different way. Helen has already introduced that Lupita Nyong' o plays Helen and she contextualizes the Trojan War sequence in terms of, you know, a war done in my name, but not for me. At all, for trade routes and for a power grab. And so.

Sean Fennesee

And she also plays Clytemnestra, her sister,

Amanda Dobbins

who in this flashback sequence takes revenge for Agamemnon killing her child, sacrificing her child, murdering her child, which you are shown in a very, very bleak and upsetting way. It is a retelling that has a lot of empathy for Clytemnestra. And so you've just been presented this person who has, like, betrayed people and made mistakes and, like, all for what. And you know, Odysseus down bad in that moment, is what I would say. And kind of your affinity for him is down bad. And so it then gives the audience and you and Odysseus the motivation of, well, at least he's gonna try to fight for the last few men. At least he's gonna try. He's, you know, it's folly to try to overturn what the gods have faded, but also he wants to. And that's like a mark in his favor, I guess. So I think it, to me, the characterization. And then I just also, like, I thought the Sirens was one of the best three minutes of a movie I've seen in some time.

Sean Fennesee

I completely agree.

Amanda Dobbins

I can't believe how good it was. So I didn't really. And it does go by quickly, so some context. I mean, you're right that it's just expositional.

Sean Fennesee

I think what it does is it just. It makes the. It's not a flaw of the story. Like, it is the story. It is the story that the prophecy is delivered and then these three things happen. I think it's more like, even though we know Odysseus is going to make these choices to try to subvert the prophecy, we also know as readers of the story or just knowers of the story or having seen the movie a second time, you're like, the incident is too clearly enunciated.

Amanda Dobbins

It's a little too, tell them what you're gonna tell them, tell them and then tell them what you told them. It's not a bad thing, which is good journalism.

Sean Fennesee

Yeah, it's very direct. I agree with you completely about the siren sequence, which is very hard to capture because it's another. It's like the Cyclops. It's something people know very well. It's gone into the language as meaning other things. It's become very metaphorical for us. The Sirens are barely seen. He makes a very wise choice to kind of shoot them at a distance on the island. And it is a moment of pure agony for Daemon. And Daemon kind of turning himself over so intensely in his performance when he chooses to hear the song, that it's like. It's a standout moment in the movie.

Amanda Dobbins

I mean, the performance is amazing because also when he chooses to hear the song, which, from the Emily Wilson translation at least, is different than in the poem, I think Cersei tells him to listen to it. And instead it's Daemon, you know, with a little mischief in his eye. And so. And, you know, it's Matt Damon doing Daemon, but also, once again, getting you really back on his side. Cause why wouldn't you want to hear it? And then, you know, transforming into that total agony. And I also felt that the. Just the writing, the screenwriting and the description of what that song was and what he heard is. Holy Nolan. And some of the best explication of what's going on in his work and some of the best writing that he's done about longing and guilt and what you've lost.

Sean Fennesee

Yeah. No, he says that the thing that you desire the most is the thing that you had and can no longer have. And the way he's cut together, him retelling the experience of what he heard and understood while showing Daemon in that absolute agony is just. Again, like. It's in the total cinema thing where you've kind of figured out how to most beautifully represent one of the most famous sequences in all of stories.

Amanda Dobbins

It's sublime. And it just. And it really all comes together and it really is only. It's three minutes, but you just. I think that was the second time that I sort of, you know, my soul left my body.

Sean Fennesee

Yeah. I love that sequence as well.

Amanda Dobbins

Two times in a movie already and we're not to the third act.

Sean Fennesee

Yes. We speedrun Scylla and Charybdis as they do. As they do in the story. It's just a few pages. Yeah, yeah.

Amanda Dobbins

But also just, you know, as they do in the film. You don't want to take your time.

Sean Fennesee

No, you got to get past that whirlpool. And I think it's pretty. This is the most fantastical sequence in the entire movie because it's a monster and a massive whirlpool that has a mind of its own. And I think it looks good. You know, I think his attempts to save everyone, or foolhardy. I think Himesh Patel, at this point in the film has become almost like the audience surrogate, where we're with him and his frustration with Odysseus's pride and arrogance. In all of these gestures, we move Quickly to Helios cattle and the final fate of the fleet. We don't even really see the final fate of the fleet, but we see them eat that cattle, which they were told not to do.

Amanda Dobbins

I just wanted to say that on this one, the Scylla of it all, you really don't see all of Scylla

Sean Fennesee

very much, which is just the tentacles.

Amanda Dobbins

Just the tentacles. Which is a very smart, you know, Spielberg 101 decision. But I loved it.

Sean Fennesee

I agree.

Amanda Dobbins

Nice cliffs.

Sean Fennesee

Now, throughout the movie, we've been seeing Calypso.

Amanda Dobbins

Yeah.

Sean Fennesee

Odysseus and Calypso are on an island together. She's feeding him lotus flower.

Amanda Dobbins

Yeah.

Sean Fennesee

He clearly can't remember everything about his life.

Amanda Dobbins

Right. And he keeps saying, why can't I remember? Do you remember?

Sean Fennesee

And so the movie is told through these phases of his memory. And after his fleet finally perishes and he washes ashore on this island, we see that it's all been kind of leading to this moment where the timelines are starting to settle in together. And this is about where we're entering the third act here of the movie. And we've gotten through all the kind of classical Odyssey incidents and Charlize Theron.

Amanda Dobbins

Yeah.

Sean Fennesee

Inspired casting. Sure.

Amanda Dobbins

You know, what if you had to be trapped 100%. Well, yeah. No, I mean, you had to be

Sean Fennesee

trapped by a demigod on an island and have sex with her every day for seven years, and they.

Amanda Dobbins

Well, they don't show any of that.

Sean Fennesee

Yeah, well, it's implied.

Amanda Dobbins

It sure is implied. The way that they dress her, the way that they shoot her. There's, you know, one shot from behind that is quite spectacular and going on my inspiration board, you know, along with Emily Blunt's arms from Edge of Tomorrow. But, yes, she's. She's wonderful. And I think casting her is great and covers as much of the problems with, you know, the character, the writing, the characterization as you possibly can. Listen, it's a tough, tough character. It's.

Sean Fennesee

I like what she does specifically in the performance, because she plays it. And I'm sure this is in the screenplay as well. She plays it with a lot of regret and confusion. She doesn't play it as this kind of, like, spider lady, you know, who's kind of, like, taken him away from his real life and love and using him for his beautiful body and the desire that she has for him. That's there. You understand that. But she's kind of mournful about what she's done, and she's kind of gotten to the end of this period of time with this man who she's become of a part, who she's been obsessed with and who she's tricked into staying with her. And Charlize is a good enough actor that you're like, oh, I see that you've done the wrong thing. You've kept this man from his ultimate fate, and that that actually is against the gods as well. And I think you're right that it's a very simplistic character, and it's a character that really flatters a male protagonist and a male author totally, which, again,

Amanda Dobbins

is in the original text. You know, I think it's. It relatively speaking, updates and modernizes and makes her more sympathetic. And I agree with you in the performance, you know, she says over and over again, we were happy. We like, we were really happy, which is at least trying to forge some sort of emotional connection or characterize, you know, give her some interiority. But, you know, it's. It's just like a woman who traps a guy and it's all her fault, you know, not exactly second wave.

Sean Fennesee

It's not. That being said, I would submit. I would submit well.

Amanda Dobbins

And so that's the one thing where I didn't know if the adaptation went far enough. I thought it could have been a little bit more provocative because it doesn't at any point suggest that the Odysseus character was, if not submitting, then, like, maybe did want to stay. There's. There's no ambiguity. It's attributed to the lotus flower, and he was either drugged and didn't remember or wants to go home. And there's another point in the movie where someone asks him, why don't you want to go home? Is it at the Sirens? But there is a little bit a hint of a complication of, is there something holding you back? Is it true that you're this totally pure person who wants to go home? I'll.

Sean Fennesee

I'll tell you what. We've made this list of things that we think this movie is really about. And one of the things that I think it's about is dad goes on a work trip. That's really what this movie is, is that Odysseus goes on a work trip. And I go on a lot of work trips. And here's my feelings on my work trips. First day, I'm a little disoriented, as everyone is. Second day, I'm like, I'm free. I have no responsibilities. I don't have to take care of my child. I don't have to make sure, everything's okay in my house. I don't have to go to work, I'm free. Third day, I'm like, I got a lot of work here. I'm doing stuff. I came here for a reason and I have all these responsibilities. Fourth day, I'm like, when am I gonna see my family? Where is my family? And I think that that is odysseus story over 20 years.

Amanda Dobbins

Sure.

Sean Fennesee

It's just transport that four day feeling I have to 20 years. And so we see in various times there are periods where he's like, I'm a fucking war hero and I'm hot and I deserve to hear the siren song. And then bang, Calypso. I deserve it.

Amanda Dobbins

But I don't think that the presentation of Calypso and the, the, the way that resolves ends with any acknowledgement that he's like, I deserve this. You know, I, and, or even I had the tiniest bit of longing or I participated in any way in extending this like a little bit longer than

Sean Fennesee

I see them get it on.

Amanda Dobbins

No, no, I mean, sure, that would be great. You know, in that instance, unlike the Penelope scene, a child wouldn't be in the room with them, which, you know, I, I know that's how it goes in ancient Greece. Or do I know. But he, he is absolved of all responsibility in, in that decision. And it's not. There's no day two. Like, hey, I, this is awesome. I can do whatever I want with Calypso. And you know, you're right, that doesn't happen. I think it could have been a bit, it could have gone a bit further.

Sean Fennesee

Do you think a man of his stature deserves to have that experience between

Amanda Dobbins

him and Penelope and. Or Christopher Nolan and his.

Sean Fennesee

Again, a very modern reading.

Amanda Dobbins

Penelope.

Sean Fennesee

Yeah.

Amanda Dobbins

Emma Thomas, who was there every step of the way you start to wonder whether.

Sean Fennesee

No, I mean, suggesting polyamory. What are you.

Amanda Dobbins

No, no, no. I'm suggesting that maybe he doesn't, you know, that's not allowed in the script because he's got someone right there on guardrails.

Sean Fennesee

Yeah, yeah, yeah, good point, good point. The final 45 minutes of the movie is all about Odysseus return. He rebuilds a raft from the remains of his ship. He leaves Calypso, he sets out to go back to Ithaca.

Amanda Dobbins

Yeah.

Sean Fennesee

At this time, he passes out for

Amanda Dobbins

a while and Athena just kind of shuttles him along.

Sean Fennesee

We'll get to Athena momentarily. This all leads to Penelope's sense that the moment has come where the suitors are going to become more Agitated, Antinous has made strong movements towards filling Odysseus shoes. Telemachus thinks he's making moves, but he's just kind of a buffoon. And I'll just say plainly, I don't think Tom Holland is great in this movie. I think he's getting some good reviews. I think he struggles a little bit. I kept waiting for him to say, Mr. Stark, Mr. Stark. Like I couldn't get Peter Parker out of my head when I was watching him.

Amanda Dobbins

The accent with him is noticeable.

Sean Fennesee

It's noticeable. You know, he's a good screen presence and he's actually quite a good action hero. And he's a wonderful spider man. Stuck out a little bit to me in the movie, if I'm giving some negative notes on it. But when he becomes together with Matt Damon, when at first Matt Damon introduces himself in the temple as a beggar and then saves his life by eliminating all of Antinous terrible henchmen. And then we see the plan to sort of take back the palace.

Amanda Dobbins

You call him the dog.

Sean Fennesee

Yes. What's the hargis? Is that the dog's name?

Amanda Dobbins

I didn't learn the dog's name. But the dog has been waiting for Odysseus.

Sean Fennesee

Yes. On a pile of dung.

Amanda Dobbins

Yes.

Sean Fennesee

Unfortunately put there by Antinous. Eventually this beggar enters the halls. And Penelope decides after a long evening and a conversation with the beggar, that the moment is now that if Odysseus is in fact still alive, he will emerge at this time and emerge in this challenge that she sets up. And if not, she'll accept the fate from one of the suitors. And what she sets up is a challenge only Odysseus can win. And this part of the movie fucking rocks. This is the absolute. This is classical John Wick.

Amanda Dobbins

Oh, but you just skipped their conversation. And the flashback, which to me is the pinnacle, where he tells the story

Sean Fennesee

of the war and what he experienced.

Amanda Dobbins

And so. And he's recognized by his nanny, but tells her not to. And it's unclear, he.

Sean Fennesee

And a wonderful moment of. It's before the callback of the Trojan War, where early in the film we see Odysseus hunting and he's gored in his ankle by a boar. And his wound is cleaned by this nanny, right? And it's when his feet are being cleaned by this woman some 30 years later that she realizes who he is. And there's that great little movie moment of recognition between them.

Amanda Dobbins

He's gored, by the way, because he always gives a warning shot with his bow. He Plucks his bow. Which is just like an incredible sonic setup for another great movie moment. A stuff but so he.

Sean Fennesee

There's like 20 of these in the movie where like somebody does something in the first hour and then they do it in the third hour and you're like, yes, God, I love that.

Amanda Dobbins

But that one is like the whole movie turns and like brings in your John Wick in that way. But before we get to that, he and Penelope. Odysseus is the stranger and Penelope have a conversation through the screen where he tells his version of the Trojan horse story. And he's telling it as a stranger, but with Odysseus. Revisionist, hard earned understanding of what happened and what it did to the world. And it's the thesis of the movie in terms of its thoughts about war, how we treat other people, what is our duty to, you know, to another man and the world at large in an incredibly beautiful way. And it is interspersed with like a second total run of the sacking of Troy. And they're lighting things on fire and the. And beheading Athena's statue and their savagery is foreground. Yeah, and it is. There's so much Oppenheimer in this while also it being just like a dramatic swords and sandal again lighting multiple things on fire, which is exciting but also appalling.

Sean Fennesee

Can we see women and children in a way that we didn't in the first rendition of the story?

Amanda Dobbins

And there's a similar. There's a shot that really mirrors that one shot from the pep rally or whatever in Oppenheimer of the young woman with her face disintegrating in this film. I thought it was really genius that it's. Instead of a slave girl, it's Athena's face transported right on. And then there is that same exact moment framed in the same way of just like this is the cost. This is what you are doing and what you're responsible for. Really, really transcendent stuff. And to me, kind of the fullest representation and achievement of what Nolan's trying to do with, you know, certainly revisionist American history and broader social commentary about like really, really powerful.

Sean Fennesee

Yeah, I completely agree. It's genuine thematic storytelling. And it does also, I think, make Athena coherent in the film because throughout the film, Zendaya crops up at moments of great doubt for Odysseus. Moments when he's made a choice that feels like the wrong choice. And she comes in and she's sort of. She's the skeptical God, you know, she's somebody who's like Is this really what you're going to do in this? Are you not a man who believes in this, this and this? And then when we see her in this state of vulnerability at the end of the story, you kind of see the way that he has turned himself over to the faithfulness of the gods and that, that is, that's the, that's the true code of life. That like the decency that is woven into. And the gods are fractious and they're difficult and they're mercurial, but they do have this kind of like divining, straightforward idea of how to be alive in this time in Greece. And that he subscribes to it, it is his faith, it is the structure of his life, it's his code. And the movie communicates that. And in doing so effectively, Penelope realizes who's back and what's happened. And it sets up this just truly dramatic realization of his return. It's not a simple. She could have just slid the doors open. But you know, there's a moment where. What is the sequence where we learn that you can't just re. Enter the halls. Like you have to take it back to.

Amanda Dobbins

Well, that's. Oh, isn't it from Agamemnon. Yes, exactly.

Sean Fennesee

Thank you.

Amanda Dobbins

Yeah, like, you know, beware, don't walk in the front door.

Sean Fennesee

Exactly.

Amanda Dobbins

Yes.

Sean Fennesee

It's Agamemnon. That's what happened to me that he's following. And that allows for this family, even though, you know, they've effectively been reunited, but they can't reunite in a clean way without there being some sort of attempt to thwart their power. And so they set up this elaborate challenge and yeah, I think this part of the movie is incredible.

Amanda Dobbins

And then the bow pluck and then just everyone going to town. Daemon Holland gets in the mix.

Sean Fennesee

Yeah, he gets to fight Logan Marshall Green upstairs who is throwing swords through the roof.

Amanda Dobbins

You know, listen, ingenuity, truly

Sean Fennesee

very old fashioned battle style fight movie stuff. There's like a little John Woo in this part of the movie. There's definitely a lot of John Wick. The cutaways to Pattinson being like, get the swords, get the shields. Like it's so hokey, but so good. Like it's so satisfying. Cause you just want him to die so bad. And he's everything he can to tell people to do his bidding and he's such an unlikable weasel of a character. But yeah, that moment pays off tremendously well.

Amanda Dobbins

It's just going. The music is harder and harder and you kind of think that the drums can't get any more intense. And then they somehow do sort of like tantric drums. It's really, really amazing.

Sean Fennesee

My heart was just racing for the last 20 minutes of this movie through that entire sequence. The way that it's edited together, the way that it's sold. And it's like, I know what's gonna happen. That's the great thing. This has happened with a few Nolan movies for me, where I'm like, I know what's gonna happen. And I'm still really, really caught up. And that is a testament to adaptation that you would still be so caught up in how this story plays out. Of course, Odysseus is triumphant. He kills everybody. And those who he doesn't kill eventually bend the knee to him. They realize their king has returned. And so tell me how you feel about the final moments of the movie.

Amanda Dobbins

Quick wrap up. I mean, he and Penelope have like the unmasked, you know, walls, modesty wall, open reunion. And he presents his Athena pen so she knows it's really him. And he's held onto it this whole time. And, you know, it's very beautiful. And I think they're good. They're very good in it. And he sets up what is a pretty quick denouement and explains what's gonna happen, which is that they give Ithaca to Telemachus. And there's a recurring bit in the film of how Odysseus is not properly honoring the dead in the ritual way that Greeks treat a dead body. And he keeps saying, when I'm done, I'll sail west and honor all my men.

Sean Fennesee

After he has given Sinon back his shame to. To Antinous. Yeah.

Amanda Dobbins

And he. So he reveals his plan to Penelope, which is also a callback before he leaves for Troy. She says, let's just, you know, sail west, chase the sun. Beautiful, beautiful sunsets. And so in the end, they are on the boat together chasing, you know, going west, chasing the sun. And then for some reason, they feel the need to gild the lily with the last three lines of the film, which are something about how, you know, men will forget to write or speak or whatever, and just like, you know, previews the Dark Ages. And then Penelope reassures Odysseus that civilization will rise again. And then cut to black.

Sean Fennesee

I thought it was a hopeful note. I could not help but think about Christopher Nolan and Emma Thomas leaving the country after a presidential election. That was the vibe that, that, that sailing on the ship was giving me a little bit of like, I can't fucking deal with Whatever's going on over here, I thought.

Amanda Dobbins

I thought everything up until the Dark ages history lesson and civilization will rise again. If you just cut those two lines of dialogue and just feature them sailing west. I think it is, you know, hopeful, but also that they are still leaving home. Like, not everything is rough. There is something.

Sean Fennesee

They were going to Boca, you know, they're retiring, heading west, they're coming to la.

Amanda Dobbins

But there's something about civilization will rise again that is also just like the classic Oppenheimer. So a lot of this was my fault, but also not all of it, right? You know, and it's like, it's gonna be okay.

Sean Fennesee

A little bit of the Bruce Wayne and Alfred, like, cheersing each other from across the tables at the end of the Batman movie.

Amanda Dobbins

And obviously just, you know, it's terrible dialogue and also. So obviously. And great meme stuff.

Sean Fennesee

I enjoyed it. It didn't bother me.

Amanda Dobbins

I guess I enjoyed it in that, like, I'm always looking for some Christopher Nolan moment. And I was like, there's my guy. You did it.

Sean Fennesee

I thought it was. Look, this is not a subtle film. Not at all. I mean, it would defeat the purpose for it to be subtle. And I think it's very obvious that one of the reasons he wanted to make it is it feels like he felt like the world is falling apart around him and that human decency is at an all time low and that we treat each other like shit publicly all the time. And you can look back to 3,000 years and think about it in the same register. So I think it's very effective.

Amanda Dobbins

I think it communicates that much more artfully for the, you know, other three hours of the movie, except for that one minute. But nice ship.

Sean Fennesee

Nice ship. Yeah, yeah, good take. You know, we've already mentioned most of the actors and below the line folks, you know, we haven't spoken about how we saw the film. We saw it in IMAX 70 millimeter at the same theater, the Universal CityWalk, which is Nolan's home court. The film, the theater that he likes to go to, to screen his films, to see other people's movies. It's one of the great screens in the United States.

Amanda Dobbins

He's a tall man. I wonder how he fits in those chairs.

Sean Fennesee

It's a little bit narrow in the seating. I had a little bit of a tough time when I saw it. Yeah, it's European. I thought he used this scale tremendously. Well, this is the first film that was entirely shot on IMAX 70 cameras. And they had to build all kinds of technology to accommodate this. Because those cameras are so big and so loud, they had to build these sound blimps around them so that the actors could do their dialogue. But then they also had to build a mirroring system. So with the blimps, they would obscure the other actors in sequences so that you would have to give your performance looking into a mirror which looked into another mirror which then showed you the actor you were speaking to. Fairly complex. You don't feel any of that in the movie. I mean, it is a very well acted movie. It's a big. The acting is big. But when there needs to be moments of intimacy, they are there for sure. Like when Calypso and Daemon are in a tent on the beach. It feels.

Amanda Dobbins

It's very true, though. You don't see that many shots of the two of them in the same frame speaking to each other. That's true, but you don't miss it.

Sean Fennesee

Yes, that's a decision that he's clearly made too. He's not showing. He's just not doing typical coverage. He's not doing that thing where you're like, oh, here's a clear establishing shot of two people and they've just entered the kitchen. He's totally dispensed with that as a filmmaker at this point. We mentioned Ludwig Goransson, we mentioned Jennifer Lame, mentioned Ellen Mirojnik, the incredible location scouting of this movie and the decision to travel around the world to do it. Ruth De Jong is the production designer. This is the Oppenheimer team. This is the people and the Tenet team, the people who all worked on that movie. These are among the best heads of department in all of movies right now. And there's a reason why these last two films especially are so extraordinary, so captivating, because you need people on his level, I think, to help him realize his vision like it really is when you're working at this scale. This isn't just like some little guy with a good idea in his room. Thousands of people worked in this movie. Is there anything else about the script that you want to note? Because one thing I'll cite before we get into our Oscars conversation is Christopher Nolan has never won an Academy Award for a screenplay. His first nomination was for a screenplay. But he's not one for his writing. And his writing has taken some dings over the years for me especially.

Amanda Dobbins

So, I mean, for me in the last five minutes.

Sean Fennesee

Yeah.

Amanda Dobbins

But also, I think it features some of the best writing.

Sean Fennesee

I agree.

Amanda Dobbins

Just on a purely dialogue level. And I think, as we said, as a Work of adaptation and being both faithful to one of the most recognizable stories in history, but also infusing not just his own ideas and like, you know, Peter, theories about what it means to be a great man or whatever, but just some very resonant commentary about the world that we live in. And being able to tie those two things to me, it's a significant leap in terms of which, you know, who am I to tell Christopher Nolan, like, good job. You made a leap. This isn't a development talk, but it's

Sean Fennesee

something he's been working towards, though. It's a realization of something that really interests him.

Amanda Dobbins

Obviously, I think it's an incredible.

Sean Fennesee

Yeah, I agree with you. Is there anything else about the film you want to see? Travis Scott. This film opens with Travis Scott. Travis Scott.

Amanda Dobbins

I mean, it's really funny.

Sean Fennesee

It's just.

Amanda Dobbins

That is really funny. We started giggling.

Sean Fennesee

The film is really loud frequently. It's especially loud in the opening moments of the movie. It does not have the problem that many of his films have where you can't understand the dialogue. I was a little worried about this in the first 10 minutes of the film because there's a lot of shuttling around the castle in Ithaca, but I found it to be quite legible. It certainly doesn't have the tenet issue of, like, you can't understand half of what these people are saying in the movie.

Amanda Dobbins

Yeah, well, I think that's purposeful in tenet because it doesn't matter. You know, just let it flow over you and this. I think he wants you to know what he's saying.

Sean Fennesee

We'll talk about the movie more and the text of the movie on Monday with cr, who's also seen the movie. Spoiler alert. He liked it. Box office. Yeah, it's tracking for a $200 million opening worldwide. I feel like it's going to go above that.

Amanda Dobbins

Okay.

Sean Fennesee

It will make it his highest grossing non Batman movie opening weekend ever.

Amanda Dobbins

Okay.

Sean Fennesee

Oppenheimer opened at 174 million. I'd just like to say that's fucking

Amanda Dobbins

insane because that was the same weekend as Barbie.

Sean Fennesee

Yeah. Which obviously was helped by Barbie. They helped each other in a lot of ways.

Amanda Dobbins

Still, at some point, most people couldn't fit both into one weekend.

Sean Fennesee

So, yes, this movie, at least in Los Angeles, screening at all hours of the day, including at 11pm and 3am There are screenings running in theaters across the city.

Amanda Dobbins

Who in the booth wants to go at 3am and report back?

Sean Fennesee

Absolutely not. No, I do.

Amanda Dobbins

Oh, all right. I got a thumbs up from Lucas. Okay, we'll discuss later. I'll obviously be buying your ticket.

Sean Fennesee

I mean, there are no tickets for the IMAX 70. That's the thing. Everything is sold out. All the screenings are sold out. So, you know, I think there's a conversation to be had about the eventization and also the sort of like the FOMO that is being created around the movie that I think has some real downsides. Do you think this movie is a movie that people see three and four times in theaters?

Amanda Dobbins

I hope that people who are interested see it twice at least. Because you and I both, I think found a lot more the second time.

Sean Fennesee

Very rewarding on the second watch.

Amanda Dobbins

Yeah, I so sure. You know, I. I don't know how the Nolan heads are going to feel about this. Do you think that they are just going to be in lockstep? My guy, he did it again. Or do you think that there is something.

Sean Fennesee

Well, I think the culture war stuff is nonsense. Like, I think that's not a. I think that's just Internet bullshit. Nobody cares about that. So anybody who's like a hyper conservative, like this isn't my Helen of Troy stuff. I think that doesn't matter. I think general, like cinephilia, Nolan super fans, I think they'll probably love it. Yeah, it's an ancient tale, but it's told in a modern way with extraordinary filmmaking style and so with huge stars, you know, like it's a very. And it's just a very satisfying watch. Like it's a big old meal of a movie.

Amanda Dobbins

I totally agree. I do wonder whether the kind of. Not the lookie lose, but the people who go to see movies because it's a pop culture event are gonna be locked in in the same way.

Sean Fennesee

I think so. It's a good question.

Amanda Dobbins

I think so. And I'm. And I'm. This is a little bit anecdotal and you know, speaking with the civilians in my life who are aware of things and they're certainly aware of the press tour and which is very charming but. And his. I think you do have to do with this cast and with this amount of money on the line. But you know, if you can watch Matt Damon and Tom Holland in the New York Times cooking kitchen, making gluten free pizza, then are you racing out in this? Do you feel like you've already participated in some cultural part of it?

Sean Fennesee

Oh, that's interesting. I hadn't thought about that.

Amanda Dobbins

This is an old Matt Bellamy point of discussion which I think is insightful, which is at what point does The.

Sean Fennesee

I think this movie is such a spectacle that it transcends that.

Amanda Dobbins

I completely agree. I do wonder how much of people who are interested in the movie are really going to go see it. People who are drawn to the like the star power and the. Oh, it's the thing of it all. I can't tell how it's going to convert.

Sean Fennesee

Can I. Can I ask you guys a question? Do you think word of mouth has never been more important to the box office, say post Covid? Because I'm thinking like Mandalorian Grogu comes out, it's horrible, drastically underperforms. Same thing with Supergirl and conversely, you know, backrooms, Mania, Obsession. It's obviously not a one to one, but it's hard for me to imagine people who see this not having it have great word of mouth. It's an unusual version of that because everyone's already aware of this movie. And I'm sure that word of mouth always matters to films. But it doesn't have the same challenges that a movie like Obsession or Backrooms had where anybody who's normie and not invested in those worlds of horror or you know, the YouTube creepypasta storytelling, it's definitely not gonna have a negative effect. I don't think people are gonna come out. I mean it's a massive critical sensation already. I think this is basically his best reviewed movie ever. And we can dovetail that with the Oscars a little bit too. Cause I find this to be such an interesting test case for that has effectively never happened before. Maybe one other time in movie history. But I. To me, I'm asking about the three to four things, Jack, because that's the way to make a movie. Make a billion or a billion point five dollars. And I don't. It's really long. Yeah, but that I want to see it again. But I won't be racing out to see it a third time. You know, I saw Oppenheimer in theaters three times because I felt like I was trying to understand Oppenheimer. You know, I felt like he was doing something in the first half of that movie that I'd not really seen before. And I really flipped for it. And the second time I saw it I liked it even more. And the third time I saw it I liked it even more than that. I guess that's certainly possible for this movie. But no one's gonna be like, I fucking hated the Odyssey, right?

Amanda Dobbins

I don't think so. Though people do always surprise me. That's true. And your reaction after the first screening was interesting. To me, I think your esteem went up after the second time.

Sean Fennesee

It definitely did. The things that I was. I mean, I wasn't crazy about Tom Holland. I did feel like it was a little episodic to a fault in Act 2. Like, that stuff still exists, but a lot of the sort of like, very intentional structural imagery that is foregrounded in the movie and then that recurs later in the movie. That was the stuff that. Something you were really recommending. I'm like, you can't deny how sophisticated and exciting this kind of filmmaking is.

Amanda Dobbins

And it rips. It just does. It rips.

Sean Fennesee

Yeah. When it's going hard, it goes really, really hard. The Academy Awards, I think this movie is locked in 12 categories. Is that crazy?

Amanda Dobbins

No, that makes perfect sense. Let's go through them. Let's. So. And I'm doing. I'm not looking at your doctor. Okay, so Best picture. Best director. So the. That's two. I think Best actress.

Sean Fennesee

I didn't put any acting categories.

Amanda Dobbins

You didn't. Oh, interesting.

Sean Fennesee

So if you want it, we can add acting categories as well.

Amanda Dobbins

Okay, we'll come back to that. So adapted screenplay. That's three. Cinematography. Four. Score. Five. Production design. Six. Costume design. Seven. Editing. Eight. Sorry, Jen. Lame for leaving you at number eight. Second Oscar. Incoming. Okay, so that's. That's eight. What are the other sound? Nine. What other categories? James Blake original song.

Sean Fennesee

I didn't add that, but I thought about it. James Blake and Travis Scott have an original song in the end credits. Yes. That's on the table.

Amanda Dobbins

Sure. I just. That's. That's so funny. Okay, so I. I like the use

Sean Fennesee

of James Blake's voice in the film too. Something I didn't pick up on the first time around.

Amanda Dobbins

It's to. It's totally great. It just is. When you turn to me during the credits the first time, you're like, is this James Blake? Okay, so you've got effects, obviously.

Sean Fennesee

10.

Amanda Dobbins

10. And then. So you have two more. Non acting. What are the other. Oh, casting.

Sean Fennesee

Casting.

Amanda Dobbins

11. And what are other categories that I had. Don't say anything. Anyone. I'm going through it. We've done music, we've done cinematography, we've done editing, we've done script.

Sean Fennesee

We've done so something near and dear to your heart.

Amanda Dobbins

Makeup.

Sean Fennesee

Makeup and hairstyling.

Amanda Dobbins

It's not near and dear to my heart. It's just a necessity of the work that I do. Yeah, well, imagine that's 12.

Sean Fennesee

That's 12 nominations. Not to mention, I do think that there is a Matt Damon, Tom Cruise, Death War, coming for Best Actor. Now, neither of them may win, but these are two of the most beloved movie stars of the last three decades, neither of whom have ever won an acting Academy Award.

Amanda Dobbins

Yeah. And Damon's on the campaign trail and I love it. And so.

Sean Fennesee

And I think his performance is genuinely special because this is a weird part. It's a reinterpretation of a classic character, and he is bringing a lot of his classic charms, but also he's got to play a man over long periods of time. His physical transformation is unbelievable for a man of his age. So he's very worthy. It's not just like, oh, he's the star of the biggest movie of the year that's going to be nominated for Best Picture. It's a great performance.

Amanda Dobbins

Is Anne Hathaway running in Best Actress or supporting? I presume supporting, I would assume as well. Although she already has a supporting actress. She doesn't have a Best Actress yet.

Sean Fennesee

That's very true. And she's also in many films this year.

Amanda Dobbins

Right.

Sean Fennesee

This is probably the one to honor her for.

Amanda Dobbins

I would think so as well. Okay, so that is, any other acting performances on the board?

Sean Fennesee

Well, I don't know. I mean, is there a case to be made? The movie's gonna be really big, right? If it's insanely big and it becomes a world historic movie that is gunning for 16 nominations, Holland is gonna run.

Amanda Dobbins

Yeah, Holland is running.

Sean Fennesee

That's a thing that's gonna happen. Regardless of whatever my opinion or your opinion is of his performance. I think people are gonna come away liking him for the most part in the movie. I don't know. Is there a case for Charlize? What about Samantha Morton? Samantha Morton, definitely. Sure.

Amanda Dobbins

Yeah. I mean, it's like eight minutes. I think Pattinson will run for other films, though. He's running.

Sean Fennesee

I agree.

Amanda Dobbins

Which is. That's a great time for all of us. You know, it's nine months from now, but whatever.

Sean Fennesee

I would love to see a campaign for Hemish Patel. You know, I think that there's, like a lot of performances in the movie that, you know. I don't know if Bernthal's getting an Oscar for this one, but I enjoy the energy that he brought to the movie. And so I guess what I'm saying is if you take these 12 nominations, maybe they're not all locked. Maybe I'm wrong, but I do think that they are. And then you add four acting nominations on top 16. That's the record.

Amanda Dobbins

Okay, great.

Sean Fennesee

Will it happen?

Amanda Dobbins

I think Nominations seems pretty likely. I mean, just. We are always befuddled at this point in the Oscar season, which is, you know, the entire year now, but mid summer, we're always kind of scratching our heads, being like, so where are all the. You know, where are all the pieces going to fall and what's going to happen? And why isn't this film at Telluride and this film at Venice? But I think this is just absolutely colossal. And they, you know, and is as good in. In all the different categories as Oppenheimer was. So nominations. Yes. Wins.

Sean Fennesee

No director has ever had Best Picture and Best Director in consecutive films. Francis Ford Coppola. The Godfather won Best Picture, and the Godfather 2 won Best Picture, but he did not win Best Director for the Godfather. Bob Fosse won that year. He won for The Godfather Part 2.

Amanda Dobbins

Okay. And you want to take that Oscar from Bob Posse.

Sean Fennesee

No, I love Cabaret. I think it's a wonderful movie. Do I think Francis Ford Coppola should have won? You know, there's a discussion. John Boorman directed Deliverance that year.

Amanda Dobbins

All right, so it was a discussion.

Sean Fennesee

Okay. Can Nolan do this? Will forget that. Will he do it?

Amanda Dobbins

Will he do it? So who else is going to be in direct work? Because Best Picture seems a lot easier to me. And you could see a split, even though we haven't had that many splits in recent years or the last couple years anyway, which is as far back as you can go, predictably, with the Oscars and the rate at which they are changing.

Sean Fennesee

Good point.

Amanda Dobbins

So. But, you know,

Sean Fennesee

Denis Villeneuve is going to be up there.

Amanda Dobbins

Exactly.

Sean Fennesee

Christian Monju is going to be up there after that. I don't know. Because Alejandro Gonzalez Inarritu is an Oscar favorite.

Amanda Dobbins

That's true.

Sean Fennesee

It's very plausible.

Amanda Dobbins

Any women making movies this year?

Sean Fennesee

No, they decided against it. Yeah.

Amanda Dobbins

Thanks so much for that.

Sean Fennesee

You guys had a meeting. It sounds like you said no movies for us. We're gonna work on our threading. I don't know. Are there any female contenders? I mean, Greta was making a movie, and then she wasn't, and it's coming out next year.

Amanda Dobbins

She is. But it's coming out for Easter. Well, I guess for Valentine's Day and then for Easter. I don't know.

Sean Fennesee

Exciting.

Amanda Dobbins

Yikes. I love her forever. She's my number one. Except for Sofia, who's also my number one. No, I can't think of any.

Sean Fennesee

Polyamory. I think it's going to win both right now. I mean, I haven't seen 60% of the movies I've been waiting for Oscars.

Amanda Dobbins

So remember this, okay? Do we need to tape it up on the wall so you don't f.1 yourself?

Sean Fennesee

You make sure I don't f1 myself. I tried. I'll be on top of it.

Amanda Dobbins

I have tried every single time.

Sean Fennesee

Jack, what'd you think of the movie? I thought it was following, as I told you, the opening 15 minutes, which. Which I thought was really a dreadful exposition slug. Just absolutely levitating. Truly, truly amazing. I think movie lovers are really gonna love it.

Amanda Dobbins

Yeah.

Sean Fennesee

It is the total package. As far as going to the movies. Do you think it's gonna make a billion dollars? Yeah, I agree. I do. I think it's interesting that Spider man comes two weeks later. They're not exactly the same audience, but they're pretty close. And both of those movies can't hold all the premium format screens at the same time. You know, this isn't like Project Hail Mary, which got like the run of show for a very long stretch, but I do. I think the number one thing that it has going for it. This is probably the best way to end this conversation, is it's a Christopher Nolan movie. He is in a class of his own in terms of marketing the movie against his name. He's a draw. He's a draw that is bigger than Marvel now, straight up. He matters more to movies than any ip. Is there any IP that is more powerful than Christopher Nolan's name? I mean, I guess if you want to say Spider man or Batman, maybe.

Amanda Dobbins

Yeah.

Sean Fennesee

I mean, this movie's gonna make more than the Batman or The Batman Part 2.

Amanda Dobbins

Right. Which is never coming out, so.

Sean Fennesee

Right. Minecraft versus Christopher Nolan. Yeah. I mean, that's a fairly new entrant. Right? We'll see with Minecraft 2. But. And there's all this new stuff coming up, obviously. And be mindful of that. Super Mario. Yeah, I think it's just the consistency. Like, let's circle back on the fifth Super Mario movie.

Amanda Dobbins

Nope, I don't think we need to. I think we're done.

Sean Fennesee

They're gonna make more.

Amanda Dobbins

I mean, I know they're gonna make more, but I think Yoshi in the mix. You know, Yoshi was in the mix. He didn't do anything.

Sean Fennesee

Yeah. We gotta get Wario in the mix.

Amanda Dobbins

Okay.

Sean Fennesee

What'd you think of our conversation about.

Amanda Dobbins

I was gonna say, have you figured out who my Wario is?

Sean Fennesee

No, but I'd like to ask the listeners of this show. Okay, well, I think some people will find you to be the Wario of other people. Are you comfortable with that?

Amanda Dobbins

Well, you have already given me the greatest compliment you've ever given me.

Sean Fennesee

That you're Anne Hathaway's warrior. Yeah.

Amanda Dobbins

Which I just like. Absolutely. It's like the nicest thing.

Sean Fennesee

But have you looked at a photograph of Wario?

Amanda Dobbins

I still don't care. You know, in the same sentence as Anne Hathaway. It's like a Daily Mail tabloid, but positive, you know, where they just try to get you. You just want to get someone in the sentence with whatever scandal you got me in the sentence with Anne Hathaway.

Sean Fennesee

I should correct photograph of Wario because he's not a real person, so he's never been photographed. Have you seen an illustration of Wario?

Amanda Dobbins

I Googled it.

Sean Fennesee

Okay.

Amanda Dobbins

You know, I'm turning 42. What can you do?

Sean Fennesee

Wow. Birthday weeks.

Amanda Dobbins

Yeah.

Sean Fennesee

Birthday week's upcoming. It's pretty exciting.

Amanda Dobbins

Yeah.

Sean Fennesee

We got the Odyssey for us. That's it. I think what we'll do on Monday is certainly want to hear Chris's thoughts at length of the movie. I'm trying to figure out if I'm going to see it again. I don't know. I'd like to, because I do feel like more will be revealed the more times you take a look. And then we're going to rank the Nolan movies. And I think we might have to just do two separate rankings. I think you and Chris can work together and be the normal Nolan people, and then I'll do whatever journey I'm on with trying to figure out how I feel about his movies.

Amanda Dobbins

Okay.

Sean Fennesee

That seems fair, right? So you guys don't have to be poisoned by the takes of mine that you don't agree with.

Amanda Dobbins

I don't think that that's in the spirit. This podcast or. Or the future content and material you

Sean Fennesee

want to broker with me about. Well, I. Brokering with Chris over Inception is tough.

Amanda Dobbins

Brokering with me over Inception is tough.

Sean Fennesee

Yeah.

Amanda Dobbins

But, you know, you. You just don't listen.

Sean Fennesee

But I like Interstellar more than you do.

Amanda Dobbins

Yeah. That's all your dad stuff.

Sean Fennesee

What? Dad stuff? What? I love being a dad.

Amanda Dobbins

Sure.

Sean Fennesee

I love being a son.

Amanda Dobbins

That's really beautiful.

Sean Fennesee

Thank you. Thanks for saying that. This is a movie about a dad. His son.

Amanda Dobbins

Yeah.

Sean Fennesee

Thanks to Jack Sanders for his production work on this episode. Thanks to Lucas Kavanaugh for work behind the scenes. We'll see you next week. Go see the Odyssey.