Podcast Summary

The Daily: 'The Interview'

Episode: George Saunders Is No Saint (Despite What You May Have Heard)
Date: January 10, 2026
Host: David Marchese
Guest: George Saunders

Overview

This episode features celebrated American author George Saunders, discussing his career, teaching, philosophy, and public image—especially around themes of kindness and empathy. Saunders reflects on his latest novel Vigil, his identity as a “teacher of kindness,” and the complexities of moral judgment in art and life. The conversation is thoughtful, candid, and gently humorous, offering insight into Saunders’s worldview, writing process, political development, and teaching style.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Saunders and the Burden of “Kindness”

• Introduction of public persona: Saunders has been widely hailed as a teacher of kindness, partially a result of his viral 2013 convocation speech (“Congratulations, by the way”).
• Complexity of public labels:
  • [20:57] David Marchese: "You're often positioned in terms of kindness... as a kind of secular saint."
  • [21:07] Saunders: "Sometimes I have to roll the eyes... I'm resisting that narrative because it jars with what I know about myself as an actual person. To say it's important to be kind does not mean I got it, you know."
• Struggle with kindness: Saunders is up-front about his own fallibility and moments of unkindness, emphasizing that his reputation as a kindness guru is both inaccurate and a side-effect of one speech.

2. On the Purpose and Limits of Literature

• Complicated effects of reading/writing:
  • Literature can expand empathy and patience, but Saunders rejects the idea it automatically makes people better.
  • [08:34] Saunders: “There's a mistake when we think someone who's done something beautiful in art must be a wonderful person...the benefits I talk a lot about because I feel it every day...they’re not necessarily going to fix everything.”
• Against utility as justification:
  • [39:32] Saunders: "As soon as you say this justifies art, you've made it have to earn its dinner... In the end, art answers to nobody."
• Sacramental value (temporary transformation):
  • [38:24] Saunders: “For that 40 seconds after you've been nailed by a story, you're kind of a little bit different... There's a way back, you know.”

3. Writing 'Vigil'—Responsibility, Judgment & Characters

• New novel’s themes: Vigil explores moral responsibility, determinism, and judgment, especially embodied through a dying oil tycoon and the ghosts who argue over his life.
• Formulating, not solving, problems:
  • [04:02] Saunders: Quotes Chekhov: "A work of art doesn't have to solve a problem, it just has to formulate it correctly."
• On rendering judgment:
  • [06:22] Saunders: “Sometimes, like you, I’d like for a hammer to drop on them...but I think...when I've been in sync with truth, I felt better...that might be the only judgment that takes place in this sphere.”
  • He resists simple moral verdicts, preferring to explore complexity.

4. Saunders’s Journey: From Ayn Rand to Empathy

• Political and moral evolution:
  • Early Randian worldview offered Saunders a sense of specialness, especially during a period of insecurity.
  • [11:44] Saunders: “I was sort of an Ayn Rand Republican...at that point, I got caught up on ‘you're special’...that was enough.”
  • Key moment of change: witnessing exploited workers in Singapore, which connected to his family’s struggles and sparked a shift to progressive views.
• Connection to Catholicism:
  • [14:23] Saunders: Describes his admiration for stories of radical forgiveness, relating this empathy to both fiction-writing and his evolving worldview.

5. Empathy and Its Limits

• Can empathy reach everyone?
  • [15:48] Saunders: “I don't think there's a person like that I couldn't generate the empathy for, but it might be facile empathy...you're you pretending to be in their shoes.”
  • Acknowledges limitations—especially with truly psychopathic or harmful figures.

6. Capitalism, Success, and Moral Fictions

• View on capitalism:
  • Personal success has made him more aware of systemic inequities.
  • [17:20] Saunders: "If you have some success, it actually makes a better vantage point to see the unfairness of the whole thing...it’s very human to mistake good fortune for virtue."
• “Shareholder value” bias:
  • [18:21] Saunders: "It's not as important as people think...We use that to excuse a lot of bullshit we wouldn't put up with normally."

7. The Nature and Challenge of Kindness

• Kindness vs. Niceness:
  • [22:40] Saunders: “Niceness is not the same thing… kindness has something to do with awareness...your ability to be in a moment without a whole lot of monkey mind going on.”
• Daily struggle with kindness:
  • Offers a real-life example (caring for an elderly dog) of how kindness is a constant challenge, not just an abstract ideal.

8. Teaching, Academia & the Value of Literature

• Approach to teaching:
  • It’s about gently helping students shed affectation, reach sincerity, and find their own voice.
  • [36:02] Saunders: “Sometimes…there’ll be a student who has a shining moment of real sincerity... And just to lightly put your hand and go on that and say...this is really beautiful.”
• Decline of fiction’s cultural centrality:
  • Fiction now feels “artisanal” rather than central; Saunders and his students are motivated primarily by personal passion, not external validation.
  • [41:56] Marchese: “The writing of fiction is like an artisanal pursuit or something like that.”
  • [42:11] Saunders: “I recognize that as being a little bit of my kind of everyday cloud mind...the real answer is, it's the one thing I've been good at in my life...and I think my students have the same thing.”

9. Art, Karma, and Buddhism

• On karma:
  • Saunders believes in karma as cause and effect, not as cosmic justice.
  • [45:06] Saunders: “In the Buddhist tradition, that word just means cause and effect...We can't always discern it.”
• Buddhist and meditative influence:
  • Meditation helps him observe his thoughts as separate from his self, fostering moments of clarity and, sometimes, kindness.
  • [25:33, 27:29] Saunders: "You could go through your whole life thinking that you are this cloud of thoughts... It's just the awareness that we have thoughts and we don't really... they sort of self generate and they dominate us."

10. Death, Salvation, and the Human Condition

• Death as central theme:
  • Vigil and other Saunders works utilize figures from the afterlife to probe questions of death, selfhood, and salvation.
  • [29:12] Saunders: "I've always been death obsessed... It's a way to think about the limits of those childhood delusions: that you're the main character, that you're separate, that you're permanent."
• Salvation:
  • Not conceived as afterlife; rather, moments where the self’s illusions dissolve and fear dissipates.
  • [31:29] Saunders: “Any moment...when you get clear of that trio of delusions, you're saved.”

11. Communication in the Digital Age

• Concern over devaluation of human contact:
  • Saunders is troubled by the rise in impersonal, sometimes cruel, digital communication, which he views as corrosive of empathy and connection.
  • [35:42] Saunders: “We’re devaluing human to human contact, which is really the only thing that there is.”

12. Looking Back: Identity, Ambition, and Contentment

• Self-reflection on late success:
  • Reflects on struggling years, late-blooming literary career, and discovering a source of value in life apart from ambition.
  • [48:33] Saunders: “I started late...for the first time, it was kind of like, all right, what if you don't have any writing career?...I still liked being alive and still felt a lot of happiness...”

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• On being mislabeled a saint:

  • “I'm resisting that narrative because it jars with what I know about myself as an actual person. To say it's important to be kind does not mean I got it, you know.” — George Saunders [21:07]

• On art’s purpose:

  • “A work of art doesn't have to solve a problem, it just has to formulate it correctly.” — George Saunders, quoting Chekhov [04:02]
  • “In the end, art answers to nobody. I totally agree with that.” — George Saunders [39:32]

• On empathy’s limits:

  • “You could come up with a version that was a little too soft and didn't truly account for what was making the person behave that way... The performance. Yes.” — George Saunders [16:04]

• On transformation through writing:

  • “Sometimes I think I just extrapolate that [writing’s effect] outwards to the rest of the world. Maybe too much.” — George Saunders [10:20]

• On karma:

  • “Karma for me is just the super, super long range cause and effect that operates. For sure, it does.” — George Saunders [45:06]

• On the digital age and civility:

  • “We're devaluing human to human contact, which is really the only thing that there is.” — George Saunders [35:42]

• On death and the illusion of self:

  • “Death is the moment when somebody comes and says, you know, those three things that you've always thought of, I have to tell you, they're not true. You're not permanent, you're not the most important thing, and you're not separate.” — George Saunders [29:58]

• Reflections on late-life awareness:

  • “What if you don't have any writing career? What if you don't have anything at which you're particularly great at?... I still liked being alive and still felt a lot of happiness... That was very sweet.” — George Saunders [50:59]

Important Segment Timestamps

• Confession/Book Festival Joke (and authenticity) — [02:02-03:39]
• Discussion of Vigil, responsibility, ghosts’ perspectives — [03:39-05:48]
• How writing changes the writer — [09:35-10:20]
• Journey from Ayn Rand Republican to empathy — [11:44-14:22]
• Judgment and empathy in fiction and life — [15:40-16:54]
• Success & capitalism, “shareholder value” — [17:20-19:22]
• Kindness: its confusion with niceness, struggles — [21:07-23:36]
• On literature’s effect; “sacramental value” — [37:00-38:24]
• Art’s justification vs. its freedom — [39:32-41:07]
• Teaching, voice, student sincerity — [36:02, 43:05]
• Karma: cause and effect, fate, agency — [45:06-46:40]
• Death, afterlife, childhood illusions, salvation — [29:12-32:43]
• Decline in fiction’s cultural centrality — [41:51-42:11]
• Digital communication’s corrosive effect — [35:42]
• Self-reflection on beginnings, current gratitude — [48:33-50:59]

Tone & Style

The episode is marked by Saunders’s characteristic warmth, humility, humor, and depth. Marchese guides the conversation with curiosity and empathy, prompting both self-examination and philosophical exploration from Saunders.

Saunders resists easy answers, embraces nuance, and consistently circles back to the ambiguities and contradictions inherent to art, morality, and selfhood. The exchange is rich, candid, and often gently self-deprecating, making it accessible and engaging for both longtime fans and newcomers.