Damien Jay

Before we get into today's episode, a massive thank you to Apple Podcasts for including High performance in their 2026 creators we love campaign. If you've just found the show, welcome. Nice to have you with us. Head to Apple Podcasts to see mine and Damien's favorite episodes from the last six years of High Performance.

Nick Fry

Ross and I met our Japanese boss on the verge of tears, and I

Damien Jay

don't think that anyone really understands the Brawn story until this conversation.

Sponsor/Ad Voice

Honda's confirmed they're pulling out a Formula One.

Damien Jay

So Melbourne 2009, almost no testing, turning up with an engine that you didn't even have just a few weeks before. Cobble together enough stuff to get the cars out on the track. You finished first and second.

Nick Fry

There were endless areas where the thing could have gone off the rails. Here comes Jensen Button, the 2009 world champion.

Damien Jay

The very Formula One thing you bought for a pound, then sold was recently valued at $6 billion.

Nick Fry

Yep.

Damien Jay

Is there any part of you that now looks and thinks, I wish I'd kept hold of that team? Let's go then, to the moment that you had to lead in a way you'd never led before. I know this was a particularly interesting point for you when we looked at nick's story.

Interviewer/Host (possibly Nick or another host)

Yeah. 28-11-2008 at the Renaissance Hotel just outside of Heathrow.

Nick Fry

Yep.

Interviewer/Host (possibly Nick or another host)

Will you take us into that room?

Nick Fry

It was clearly going to be not the easiest situation. I mean, Ross and I had prepared for, you know, a significant budget cuts. You know, Honda dealers were refusing to take cars. They were going to close down the plant in. In Swindon in the UK for a short period of time, which turned into a long period of time, which turned down. Eventually it was closed down, so. So we knew the situation was going to be very difficult and we had prepared for, you know, maybe a 50%. 40. 50%. And we mapped that out. I have to say, we weren't expecting them to say what they did say. And, you know, the Renaissance Hotel, which is still there, is not the most luxurious hotel, let's say, at Heathrow airport. And we arrived and, you know, met our Japanese boss who took us into a very small room, uncomfortably small room, almost. There were the three of us, and Ross is a fairly big lad and we were sitting there uncomfortably close to her. Our boss, who literally was, you know, on the verge of. Of tears and explains that, you know, they couldn't go on doing Formula one because, you know, the things I've just mentioned and, you know, it wasn't the right thing for them to do. They had bigger, you know, things to worry about and they were going to have to stop. And, you know, for Honda, which has got this just unbelievable history in Formula one, you know, it clearly was, you know, from the hearts, I mean, he, he was clearly desp upset. And then we were asked to move into the room next door and it was a bit like sort of a assassination squad. There was sort of Ross and myself and, you know, a big table with probably 20 Honda people from various parts of the world who, you know, said, look, we repeated the story and there were their HR experts and this, that and the other. And it was literally, you know, and in my, this is not my first rodeo, as I say in America. I worked for Ford for a very long period of time. I ran Aston Martin and we had difficult times there, so I'm not a beginner. And they somehow seem to think that we should go back to the factory and tell 700 people to go home and turn the lights off. And I think under those situations you've either got two options really, haven't you? One is you say, yes, thank you very much, and off we go and we'll just tell these people they've not got jobs in the middle of the financial crisis or you do the opposite, which is, you can't do that. I was fairly robust in my response. And I think the thing that frequently in sort of top level relationships, you end up in the situation where you work with someone else and you've got different skill sets and Ross and I come from very different backgrounds. He's a brilliant, brilliant engineer and not so strong on the commercial side. It's not his interest, but he knows enough about it and vice versa. And that was my job to step forward and say, we need to have some time here to try and find an alternative.

Damien Jay

So you took the lead in these negotiations.

Nick Fry

Very important. Much so. I mean, clearly, you know, you work as a sort of a. You don't work in isolation ever. I don't think, you know, clearly, and I think the beauty of the relationship Ross and I have got, I don't think we've ever, ever had a, you know, a bad word between us because, you know, we've got respects, hopefully for, for each other, certainly I've got huge respect for Ross and.

Damien Jay

But you can communicate with the situation, really, can you? Because you're sitting in front of.

Nick Fry

You can't. But I think that, you know, you know enough about the other person to, to know how they're react. So, you know, in many Ways I became the lightning rods, which is fine. And that's the way frequently, you know, Ross and I worked anyway, that I know I would be the, the bad guy and he would be the, the nice guy and heat. And we, yeah, I think we work the same way. Even with, you know, drivers and others, you know, we, we frequently. I was the one who, you know, was doing the nasty pay negotiation. He would be stroking and saying, you know, you didn't really mean it like that, et cetera, et cetera. So anyway, cut a long story short, we, we need some time. You know, we'll tell them that we have, you know, we've had these discussions, we tell the staff, but on the other hand, you know, we are going to do our best to sort this out. We went back to the factory, you know, a bit shell shocked, I have to say, and told the staff that, you know, this was, this was happening. And, you know, we asked the staff, you know, are we going to fight or are we going to kind of give in? And, you know, we got a fairly rousing, you know, response that we were going. But I mean, again, a little bit of context. I mean, Ross had been there not such a long period of time, but I'd been there quite a long time and things hadn't been easy. I mean, we took the team over from a tobacco company. We didn't have the physical assets that you need to be successful in Formula one, big wind tunnel, all those sorts of things. So we had to build those things. We didn't do well on the track. But the thing that people didn't see behind the scenes was whilst we were not doing very well in front of the TV audience, behind the scenes, we were investing huge amounts of money in a wind tunnel and computational fluid dynamics and machine shops. And it's all that stuff which has provided the foundations for the subsequent success of the team, in that we were investing in that sort of thing. And teams like McLaren, who hadn't have had to do 10 years later and now are reaping the rewards of that. So despite the fact it was very, very painful from time to time in those 2007, 2008, were really difficult, but actually we were building for future success. So it all turned out well in the end.

Interviewer/Host (possibly Nick or another host)

But given how long the, that you'd spent there, and when you hear the shock of this news, you were going in thinking it was 50% reductions and then you find out they're pulling out, did it cross your mind that there's 719 people here whose livelihoods Whose families, whose communities depend on them. And if that did enter your mind, how did that not overwhelm you? The sense of responsibility?

Nick Fry

I think, in those situations. And it was right through that period from, you know, the sort of end of 2008, right through to the first race. I mean, we had endless ups and downs. You know, buying or a management buyout is kind of pretty much unheard of in Japan. So persuading a, you know, a Japanese company that they should give something that they had invested hundreds of millions in to the people who were running an underperforming team, you know, I can tell you it wasn't a very easy task. And every day was. Was an up and a down. But I think in life in general, in sport, even more so because it's so quickly reacting. If you look at all the problems that might face you in totality, then it will become insurmountable. You Look, I've got 25 problems. How on earth am I going to do that? Well, that's overwhelming for anyone. You know, the thing I always do is you just got to break it down and say, okay, I will address one of those, you know, let's have a go at that one today. And then you, hopefully you knock that one down, then you can go on to the second one. And the more you knock down, the easier it gets. But I don't think you can ever allow yourself to look at that big picture because it would be too frightening. But coming back to your points, I do think that we felt that there were 700 people there, and if we didn't step up, and I don't want to make out that this is the primary reason we did it, the primary reason we did it was because we were a team. We worked together for a long period of time. Many of the people who were there, people like Ron Meadows, his team manager, had been there from the start in 2000. It's still there today. Great people, and we pulled together. And I don't think it sounds kind of strange from the outside, maybe I don't think we went through this sort of thought process of, should we do it, shouldn't we do it? What were the pros, what were the cons? And if we'd have done that, probably we wouldn't have done it. I mean, Ross and I had good contracts with Honda. They'd have had to pay us personally large amounts of money to pay us off. So that would have been the easy route in many ways. I don't think, certainly from my point of view, it ever occurs. It was, you know, we have to fix this. And it comes back to that sort of forward thinking mentality of, you know, we are going to sort this out one way or the other. And you know, it's. And everyone got behind us, God bless them. And you know, the level of teamwork, you know, I know the people in the team have gone on to massive success, but I think if you talk to any of them, they will happily say that was the most important one and that was the one that gave most satisfaction because we only got there as a tight knit group and it's one which will never be repeated. I don't think we'll be right back

Damien Jay

after a quick word from our partners.

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Nick Fry

Buyer's remorse.

Damien Jay

Buy a new car.

Nick Fry

I'll be moving in.

Damien Jay

Let's get started.

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Nick Fry

You what?

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Nick Fry

So there's no.

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Nick Fry

I guess I'll let myself out.

Damien Jay

Congratulations. I mean it.

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Nick Fry

There's a couple of things I just

Damien Jay

want to pick up on there. The first one is this negotiation with Honda, because I hadn't really, I suppose, thought about the fact that a management buyouts are not a thing, really, in Japan, but also that you were kind of saying, I know you spent millions. I know we haven't delivered on those millions that have been spent as the leaders of the team, but now we want you to give us that team that you've spent millions on and if it's successful, we'll be the ones that benefit. I see now how that might have looked totally incongruous in some ways to.

Nick Fry

It was a bit of a hard sell.

Damien Jay

So what's the secret of getting that hard sell over?

Nick Fry

The secret was purely. I mean, frequently in this world, after you put aside all the sort of more glamorous things, it does come down to money and the finances. And I know that's kind of boring in a sporting world, but the reality is sport is big money and, you know, to be successful, you've got to find ways of accessing that to buy the players you need or the stadium you need or what have you. And this was equally money. And we had done a sort of back of fab packet calculation which said, you know, to shut this down is going to cost a lot of money. And the reality is, Formula One teams aren't really much good for doing anything other than Formula one. You have a wind tunnel, which actually is so sophisticated that it's not necessary for other types of racing, really, and it's not necessary for the car industry. So what's a Formula one wind tunnel worth? Well, if you're not doing Formula One, the answer is not much. And the same with all the other facilities. And remember, also, it was at a time where general facilities like machine shops were going for nothing. I mean, you could go out there during the financial crisis and buy all those clever machines for not much money because there were lots of companies going bust. So basically the storyline was, if you close down this team, it's going to cost you X. If you give it to us, we've got all the liability and it will be less expensive for you. And that's kind of a strange story to tell. And quite naturally, Honda said, well, thank you very much, but we need to send in our accountants and finance people to check all this as they would, and they sent in consultants and all these sort of people to look at the situation. And the consultants confirmed to Honda that actually to close down the team and pay all the redundancy, et cetera, leave alone the PR side of it. I mean, the British government weren't overly keen on having another 700 families without jobs in the middle of the financial crisis. And the PR story for, you know, GB PLC wasn't great either, because Formula One is something we're really good at.

Damien Jay

Yeah.

Nick Fry

And, you know, and it's a real kind of figurehead thing. So from their point of view, you know, they weren't overly keen on another headline to say this team had gone bust. And the consultants went in and went back to Hondura and said, actually, these guys may have underestimated it. It's going to cost you even more.

Damien Jay

So roughly, what sort of numbers are we talking?

Nick Fry

Well, you know, it was, it was probably going to cost, you know, 150 million or more, all told, you know, when you. And that, that is, you know, excluding, you know, if you get into industrial tribunals with people and all those things, then it gets even more expensive. So.

Damien Jay

And the alternative price to back you was more in the region was less than that, like 20, 30 million.

Nick Fry

No, no, no, we, they were quite generous. I mean, they, they. We basically said, look, we do need some sort of alimony here because we haven't got any sponsors, we haven't got an engine. So it probably cost them about half, I would guess what it would have done. So for them it was a good deal and they did the right thing. And I think Honda is just a great company and they're one of the companies in the world, even to this day, that's, you know, has got a lot of heart about it. And I think, you know, personally, you know, that comes from the original Mr. Honda. And I think Ford is in a similar position because the Ford family is still there. And I think these companies are a little bit different from, you know, faceless conglomerates. So, you know, for them it was financially a good deal. You know, for us, you know, we took on the liability, which, you know, frankly, and we didn't have an engine and we didn't have a conversation at

Interviewer/Host (possibly Nick or another host)

home to have those.

Nick Fry

Yeah. I have to say, Kate, my wife, and Ross's wife Jean, weren't overly impressed. I think it's probably.

Interviewer/Host (possibly Nick or another host)

Tell us about that conversation.

Nick Fry

You kind of end up having slightly weird conversations. Jean said to Ross, you know, and I can happily say this, just ring fence the house so we've got somewhere to live. But apart from that, you know, go for it. And I remember Kate and I had this bizarre conversation about tuna fish and it Was, it was, it was, you know, if we, you know, lose everything and we have to survive for the rest of our lives on tuna fish, you know, out of a tin, are we going to be all right? And we thought, well, yeah, we can hack this, you know, we'll give it a go. So, you know, but it was, it was kind of, you know, a quite a big deal. Yeah, but, but again, it comes back to this, you know, it's a challenge. Let's get on with it. It's belief and I think belief is just a huge thing in sports and in individuals. I mean, if you believe you can do it and, you know, we didn't know the outcome. Did we expect to win the World championship? Never even crossed our minds. I mean, we didn't have an engine, leave alone anything else. So there were, there were a few issues. But, you know, we got the backing of our better halves and we got the backing of the team.

Damien Jay

Even more important than the Honda negotiations was convincing Mrs. Fry and Mrs. Braun

Nick Fry

to let you risk everything, you know, everything about that, you know, it's the power behind the throne.

Interviewer/Host (possibly Nick or another host)

But you spoke there about it was a challenge, which is an understatement, and it's in itself. But it echoes conversations we've had on this podcast with other guests that have spoken about that sense of crisis actually galvanizing a team and delivering exceptional results, which you did. I'm interested in what did you learn from a crisis that you were able to maintain even when that, like the roof wasn't falling in, in terms of back at the factory and with the team?

Nick Fry

I think that, I mean, personally, I think that working without a safety net, you know, does mean you get to a different level. You know, if it is that critical, you know, if you're on a tightrope and there isn't a net below you, then you're going to concentrate that. And I think the margins in sports and high level business are so small. The difference between, you know, success and failure is 1 or 2%. Maybe, you know, it is that, that tiny thing. So I do think that it's. Yeah, it does sharpen the mind a lot. Yeah. But I think the other thing, you know, people ask or talk about the success we had in 2009 and in their minds, because it's a physical thing and it's very easy to see. It wasn't so easy to see, but people could understand that it was a double diffuser, it was a technical innovation. Now, clearly that had a lot to do with it, but don't Forget that. Two other teams actually had the same thing. Toyota and Williams both had a double diffuser. They just didn't do it as well as we'd done it. But, you know, if you sat here with Ross, as well as what I'm going to say, the reason we were successful is we were the best team. And what does the best team mean? It means that you do your job to the best of your ability. And when you've done that, you assist the person at the next desk or in the next department or whatever, to do their job brilliantly because they might be struggling. It's. It's all up. It sounds hackney, but it's the team. The team, the team it is. And we were the best team. And, you know, the five of us, Ross, myself and the. The other three directors, you know, all did our own jobs to a high standard, and we all helped each other because all of us were smart people, and that went through the organization and people just. And I think that the thing you learn, which, you know intuitively, but, you know, individual performance is important, clearly, but the thing that is most important is working as a team. And, you know, and I think people roll their eyes about that, but, you know, there is no magic to any of this. It's just doing it with an intensity which is beyond what most people are used to. You know, you say something like, people are your most important assets. Well, every company in the world says that. But do they really mean it? Do they really go through with it? Do they really treat those people as the most important asset? And the answer is, no, they don't. And you can go through every different aspect of running a business, but when you're doing it at the highest possible level, whether it be in soccer, I imagine, or in Formula one, you're just doing it every single second with an intensity which is just way beyond what most businesses is doing. Most businesses do.

Damien Jay

And do you think that what helped? Because I can see why you and Ross and the other directors are delivering here like, your necks are on the line, your reputation's on the line. You've gone through this huge process. You can't just walk and join another team at that point. But actually, some of your engineers and your designers and some of your team could, but they chose to stay. And they chose to not just stay, but to stay and fully, deeply commit. Do you think your culture was improved by the fact that you all almost lost your jobs overnight?

Nick Fry

I think that. I don't think the culture appeared at that particular time. I think it was a Culture, which hopefully we have been working on. The culture where people could speak out, no matter what the level they were at, and people could ask questions and people could feel comfortable and people could take, you know, feel comfortable taking risk. You know, I think that.

Damien Jay

So you created vulnerability in that team.

Nick Fry

Yeah, we did, but vulnerability, I would say, in the sense that hopefully people did not feel vulnerable in the. If they took a risk that, you know, their job was at risk, they felt that they could take the risk sensibly and if it went wrong, you know, we'd all fix it. And, yes. So freedom to be tried. So there's a freedom to try things out. Then, you know, if you're going to be successful. You know, a Formula One car's got 4,000 bits, give or take, which you have to design, and those bits are going to have to be at the. The edge. You know, you've got to get into the gray areas and when you do that, things will go wrong. If you say to a racing driver, don't crash, well, that's dead easy. They break a few meters earlier and they accelerate a few meters later. And are they going to crash? Never. Are they going to win anything? Never. So you've got to get people into an area where they feel, not that they can be a kamikaze pilot and do dumb things. That's not the intention. But the intention is that they can get out of their comfort zone. And when it goes wrong, because sometimes it will, that, you know, as long as, you know, you catch it fairly early and you're honest about things, then, you know, people feel comfortable and you are going to win. So I don't think this culture appeared overnight. It's the way I've always tried to operate and it's respecting people, it's, you know, working with people, it's letting people have their voice. That doesn't mean, you know, if you come up with an idea and, you know, I don't agree or we can't do it, you know, I will push back, but I will give you the reason why we can't do it. The way you get a culture is actually by living it day by day and actually, you know, responding in the appropriate way and treating people appropriately, etc. Etc. And when you've got that, you know, it was amplified, undoubtedly by the difficulty of our situation, but I think, you know, we were a good team and, you know, that didn't come through in the results until later. But those kind of idiots on the grids who were considered to be buffoons in you know, maybe 2005 or 6 or what have you just happened to be exactly the same people who won more Formula one World Championships than any other team in history. Yeah, you get that.

Interviewer/Host (possibly Nick or another host)

You've made reference to the double diffuser being significant. Would you tell us how that came about?

Nick Fry

Yeah, it was, again, sort of, I would say, sort of linked to the culture that we, you know, we. We tried to develop because it came from a. A very junior, probably one of the more junior, in fact, in a Japanese Honda Aerodynamicis. And, you know, we were discussing the concept of the 09 car and, you know, I remember one of the meetings was, you know, this person was probably the most junior person in the room. And what Ross is really good at, you know, which people don't see so much from the outside, is, you know, will he make a decision? Yes, he will, you know, because someone's got to make a decision ultimately. But, you know, Ross is not the person who's designing the car. He's not the person who is, you know, saying, it must be this way. He's the person who's in a room with 20 brilliant people trying to get each of them to contribute. Now, frequently, if you do that effectively, most of the time, the answer comes out, you know, you don't need to sort of be the dictator and say, we're going to go this way because, you know, you come to a good solution. But yes, ultimately someone's got to make a decision if it's not clear, you know, that's what you're doing, therefore being the boss. But yeah, in that particular sort of, you know, those discussions, you know, this, you know, 25 year old or whatever he was, you know, Japanese designer, put his hand up and explained, you know, in fairly sort of halting English, this idea. And I think at the time, the instant reaction was, you can't do that. And then kind of, I think the penny dropped that. Hang on, he might be onto something here and, you know, the reason the others. And it was three months or four months later, you know, when we were taken to court by the other teams, it was clear when we got to the sort of the courtroom, as it were, they had no idea how it works. I mean, it was hilarious to Ross and I in that Ferrari resorted to, you know, the Ferrari lawyer resorted to try and, you know, tell everyone what a dreadful person Ross Braun was. And, you know, he cheated in the past and this, that and the other, which was hilarious for someone, you know, who, you know, obviously, you know, worked. Worked for Ferrari for Years, et cetera, et cetera. You know, to be honest, it wasn't a great approach because everyone knows that isn't true. But the brilliant thing about the double diffuser is that it was really complicated to understand how it works. And it was very clear that even months later that the court case was a fishing expedition, because some of them had no idea. But I digress. You know, it was from a junior engineer. You know, I think the culture was. Everyone was listened to and, you know, he spotted something and I think it was again, the benefit maybe of diversity in that he was possibly reading the rules as they were written, not as they were meant, because he was working obviously in his presumably second language. So he read what was there and what, what was there allowed you to exploit an area where you could end up with a diffuser which is, you know, massively powerful in terms of the aerodynamics of the car. It's a bit underneath the back of the car, like an aircraft wing in reverse, you know, and you could have a much bigger one than anyone else. But as I said earlier, you know, Williams and, and Toyota had the same idea and so they didn't win anything.

Damien Jay

I just think there's two really interesting things there. Number one, the fact that you had someone who interpreted the rules exactly as they were written because it was a second language. But then it's very easy for a culture to go, no, no, no, you're just a junior aerodynamicist. That's not the way that we operate here. But the culture that you described had been created in the team. Actually, I think we've looked at this wrong. We've looked at this as someone worked it out.

Interviewer/Host (possibly Nick or another host)

No one.

Damien Jay

I've never heard anyone say, well, the culture was the thing that allowed that idea to actually end up on the race car.

Nick Fry

Yeah, I think that's why. And people go glassy eyed sometimes when you talk about culture and those sort of ethereal things. But I think the reason it takes so long for teams to be successful is not just the acquisition of assets. People, assets, great players, great stadiums, great wind tunnels, et cetera, et cetera. That is clearly part of it, but it's building up that, that team and that approach and this is how we go about things. And, you know, once you've got it, if you, you play your cards right, you can keep it for a long period of time, but you can equally blow it very quickly by starting to do different things. But I, yeah, if you look at lots and lots of most great teams, you know, it's a, it's a long process. You know, look at the psg, you know, speaking of, something's happened recently, you know, go back 10 years. You know, they were dreadful and they were supported by, you know, thugs and, you know, they weren't the team they are today. But it's taken a long time. Look at, you know, Ross and Michael at Ferrari, I think it was at least five years before they could get it successful. And, you know, clearly some teams, you know, and Ferrari being probably case in point, still haven't quite got there. And why do they make the mistakes they make? Well, look at it on the surface. It's because someone dropped a wheel nut or what have you. That's kind of, that's just an outcome. The reason someone dropped a wheel nut or that they've made the wrong strategy call or whatever it happens to be is much deeper than that in the organization and that is much more difficult to fix, especially if, if it's established in the wrong way. It's a bit like, you know, learning a musical instrument. You've got to learn, you know, if you continue to make the same mistake, that mistake gets embedded in, you know, your brain and you continue to make the mistake. And if you, you know, don't putt the right way, I assume it's exactly the same thing, that you'll continue to make the same mistakes. So this is really quite difficult. And I, you know, I think it is why some succeed and some don't. And it ain't. Ain't just the, the obvious things still to come.

Damien Jay

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Interviewer/Host (possibly Nick or another host)

So can we talk then? Your natural modesty has prevented you from sort of dwelling too much on your role as a leader here. But I'm interested in that dynamic between you and Ross that you've alluded to that helped shape that culture. Would you tell us how it worked?

Nick Fry

Yeah, I mean, I think there's firstly, you've got to pick the right people. I mean, if I go back to sort of prior to Ross, Honda wanted to put in place their own technical director who was someone who was brilliant in the world of motorbikes but was was new to Formula One. And Formula One is not a place for beginners. You know, this is, you know, you're at the pinnacle a bit like saying someone from the Ishmael League, you know, can suddenly play in the Premiership. Well, it doesn't quite work like that. You know, I managed to persuade Honda. I didn't really persuade, I just went and did it. And then they became persuaded. You know, I asked Charlie Whiting, who was the chief technical guy at the fia, you know, I was fairly gloomy day. I said, well, look, you know, this is just dreadful. You know, I need to hire someone experience, you know, who, who should it be? And, you know, he just generously offered, you know, well, you've got to get, you know, Ross, Adrian Newey or Pat Simmons, you know, that he said, go get one of those and you'll be fine. Now, easier said than done, of course. But, you know, the secret to this in my mind is you've got to match all the bits of the jigsaw puzzle. And Adrian Newey may be appropriate in the world of Red Bull. Very different type of organization. Might work in Aston Martin, who knows? But I didn't really think it was going to work in the world of Honda. And I guess what I'm good at is because I had 25 years with Ford Motor Company, you know, I've got a fair understanding of what big companies want and you've got to carry the owners and the shareholders and you've got to operate in a certain way. And, you know, apart from the fact he's a great guy and he's a great engineer and what have you, you know, why would you choose, you know, Ross Brawn versus Adrian Newey, both unbelievable success. If you had a free choice, which I didn't ultimately anyway. But, you know, you choose the one you think is going to fit into the organization, you know, and work with you. And Ross is, you know, someone who is, you know, he's a team player, he's logical, he's brilliant, he's funny, he's friendly and what have you. And I had the inkling I would kind of get on with him. So we weren't starting from a position of, you know, you know, chalk and cheese here. You know, I, I wanted him as part of the organization because I felt, you know, I could, I could work with him. But I think the secret to it is, is, is communication. A lot of it, you know, spending a lot of time together. I think a lot of it is, you know, Ross is a technical guy. He's a very clever man, but he's not overly interested in the commercial side. You know, I know work for, in the car industry for a long Period of time. So I know how a car works and, you know, if you gave me the bits, I could probably put it together for you, but I couldn't design it. So, you know, you have this sort of, and it's sort of a Venn diagram where you're working on your bits. But we're both open minded and I guess old and mature enough to say, you know, we can comment on each other's work, as it were, and, you know, we're confident enough that, you know, when one of us made a suggestion, why don't you have a look at this, that or the other, then they're listened to. And I think that is the nature of the relationship is that, you know, you do your bit but you're not adverse to someone else pitching in because everyone can have a good idea and capturing all of that. And, you know, I think we've got other sort of, you know, core values which is, you know, very much. You know, it's difficult in Formula One because you've got sort of 400 journalists doorsteping you in the paddock the whole time, you know, and people like Jake coming up and sticking a microphone under your nose, which you did often. So, you know, it is quite difficult. But, you know, you've also got to have the attitude of, you know, what happens inside the team stays inside the team as far as you can. You do not want, you know, necessarily things in public because it then becomes, you know, everyone's got a point of view. So there's certain sort of core values of, you know, keeping your mouth shut. You know, if you want to use the press to, you know, get over a point or put leverage, that's a different thing. And you try and use that strategically as best you can, but, you know, keeping certain things inside and acting as a team and operating in a certain way, I think, you know, those fundamental values are common.

Damien Jay

I want to talk about the season itself, but before that, before the car ran, before you got the one two in Melbourne, before the whole world woke up to what you were going to do that season, what was the lowest and most difficult moment after the acquisition of the team, before you actually went

Nick Fry

to the first race, the worst thing was having to get rid of 400 odd great people. I mean, we had no choice. And because we had no choice, it was, it was, it wasn't easy, but at least you could look people in the face and say, look, you know, we haven't got any money we can afford, you know, whereas at the moment we've got five electricians we can afford two. Really. Sorry, but that. That's kind of how it is. And I, you know, I think no matter. And I, you know, I've had to do it several times during my career. When you have to sort out companies, redundancies, sadly, are usually involved and it never gets any easier because they're real people, they've got families, they've got mortgages, they've got all the other stuff. And I think that process, which happened in the few weeks leading up to the Melbourne Grand Prix, was. Is probably the most difficult thing about it, because, you know, unless you're some sort of, you know, psycho killer, you know, doing bad things and having to do things, but when you've got no option, you've got no option. And we had to. The great news is, you know, most of them, you know, returned in later years or got jobs elsewhere. And, you know, there's more people working there. There's probably more than double the people working at Brackley now than there was in those days. So a lot of them got their jobs back, but it didn't make it any easier.

Damien Jay

And did you have to renegotiate with Jensen Button and Rubens Barrichello, who would have obviously been probably the highest wage earners in that team?

Nick Fry

Yeah, to some extent. You know, clearly, you know, there were deals done with Honda as well, because they had contracts, so, you know, they had to be. They had to be honored. But clearly, I mean, partly, I don't want to make out, you know, that we. We perform miracles. I mean, yes, people wanted to stay with the team and ultimately they were vindicated. They went on to success that year and greater success later. But, you know, probably the other thing that in reality worked in our favor, it was so damn late in the season, they probably didn't have any jobs to go to because. So, you know, probably there's a couple of things that worked in our favor, but the great teamwork was clearly part of it.

Damien Jay

So Melbourne 2009, you finished first and second. Yeah, but I don't think that tells the story of almost no testing, turning up with an engine that you didn't even have just a few weeks before, you having to kind of cobble together enough stuff to get the cars out on the track. I mean, for people that didn't live through it and weren't in the pit lane at that time and in the paddock at that time, I remember walking along and seeing so much gear, so much equipment, so many sponsors names in all of the garages, and then suddenly there's this one pretty empty, totally white garage with half as many people in it working as everywhere else and half as much going on right down the end. What are your memories of that weekend?

Nick Fry

Well, the first thing is, I mean, just to dial you back a bit. I mean, not having an engine is a bit of a problem. You know, we. We did go to Honda and say, look, you know, bugger off, by all means, but, you know, can we buy the engine from you? And they said no. They said, look, you know, we don't want to be kind of half pregnant. We're either in or we're out, and we're out. So, you know, you've got to take what you can, but you haven't got an engine, which was a slight issue. The good thing about that is, you know, I think, you know, maybe more Ross than me, who knows? But, you know, I think people quite liked us and they could see what we were going through and, you know, they wanted us to survive. And, you know, God bless them, you know, both Ferrari and Mercedes said, look, you know, we will sell you an engine. They're not going to give us an engine. They sold us the engine. And Luca de Montezemolo and Ross and I met at Brown's Hotel around the corner from here. And Luca said, look, you know, you're good guys, you know, if you. If you want to buy our engine, you can. Mercedes. Norbert Haug, you know, said exactly the same. That had a problem that, you know, McLaren had to agree because they were the works team, God bless him. Martin Whitmarsh, who was the managing director at the time, you know, was very pro. Ron Dennis, less so. I think Ron was quite, yeah, was right in that it was giving the engine to the enemy. And in the end, you know, we not only got the engine, we got the driver and we got the, you know, the. The backing of Mercedes. So it really backfired in the biggest possible way. But without Martin's, you know, say so, we wouldn't have got that.

Damien Jay

I thought about that and Mercedes gave you the engine that won you the world title. And then, yeah, then you went and stole Lewis Hamilton.

Nick Fry

When we sold Lewis Hamilton, we stole the engine. We stole. We got the engine, we. We got Mercedes as team owners and we persuaded Lewis. So Ron, I mean, wasn't overly impressed with me at that stage, but it's kind of amusing in that, clearly this is a highly competitive world, notably in Formula One, and whilst teams may bleat that you stole their driver and what have you, you know, Darn well, in a heartbeat they would do the same to you. So sympathy here is limited. But, you know, we had the hurdle of the engine, which was quite difficult. We had the battle over the double diffuser, which.

Damien Jay

Which, by the way, the same teams that were giving you engines were trying to get you.

Nick Fry

We're trying to stuff us Bernie, you know, without going into all the gory detail, because we'd be here all day, you know, FOM at that time, owed us some money, which Bernie didn't want to give us. So he was difficult.

Damien Jay

Was he trying to say you were a different team to Honda so we

Nick Fry

didn't have to pay. He was. Didn't want to pay us the money that was owed to Honda, which. That was a big battle, you know. Did you win that battle? Yeah, we won all the battles. We. I mean, it comes back to what I said at the start. Once you start hitting the ball out of the park, the next one is easier. But anyway, there were a few battles and, you know, we don't have any sponsors, bit of a problem. But we've been working on Virgin and Richard Branson and people have been trying to get Richard into Formula one for donkey's years and never been successful. But Richard, you know, being a great entrepreneur, you know, realized he was probably onto quite a good thing and he'd be for us. It was a lot of money for him. It was the best deal. He's probably, you know, one of the best deal he's ever done. So, you know, that was signed as I was on the plane to Melbourne and, you know, Ross and I had this sort of thing going in that, you know, clearly people wanted to spend money we didn't have. So again, you know, I was sort of nasty Nick, as I spent half my career doing, saying, no, we can't afford that. So literally, I would go through, you know, the people who wanted to go to a race and just draw lines and, you know, so you only need one of those. And with Honda, we had about four PR people, you know, we ended up with one Nicola Armstrong, who had to do the whole job. Brilliant, by the way, who was brilliant, outstanding individual. And I just, you know, you remember those tiny little things, you know, I remember calling Nicola in into my office and saying, you know, by the way, you know, we've had to cut back a little bit and, you know, sadly, all your colleagues are gonna have to go, so, you know, you're gonna have to do it all if you're happy to do so. And by the way, first thing you Know, get on a plane to Melbourne and I think we've got Virgin sponsorship, so you better organize. You know, Richard Branson and I remember Nicola's, you know, eyes were wider and wider as to. And then they, these people, just everyone rose to the challenge, every single person. And Nicola wasn't the most senior person in PR department at that time, and they just did the most brilliant job. And I think it really is an example if you give people that challenge and say, this is your opportunity, go for it and give them the freedom and give them the support and what have you. So anyway, we got to Melbourne, Australia, we did the launch. Prior to that, the other teams had been testing for weeks on end. In those days, there wasn't any restriction on the amount of testing you could do. So I think most of them done about four weeks and we turned up for the last two days, and

Interviewer/Host (possibly Nick or another host)

we

Nick Fry

weren't just the fastest, we were a country mile. As you guys know, in Formula one, you fight for a second or half a second or a tenth of a second, and we were a second and a half quicker than anyone else. I mean, we were a country mile ahead of them. And all the others thought we were cheating and running the car light and what have you. In fact, we had the whole damn car laden down with, you know, as much test equipment as we could to try and conceal our hand as to how quick we were. So we went to Australia. But none of this making light of it was smooth sailing. I mean, we had. The drivers were told, you know, you can't crash because we haven't got any more bits. That's, you know, that's kind of, you know, what you've got is, you know,

Damien Jay

and, And I remember they did as well. Do you remember Rubens had a real big whack at the start of that Australian race? And we were all watching thinking, how's that car not falling apart? Yeah, and that again, there's real fortune. That was slightly different part of the car and it breaks and there's no one to finish and.

Nick Fry

And, you know, there was that sort of thing. But also, you know, the guy who was doing the refueling was allowed in those. Those days. The guy was doing the refueling, had never done it before in his life. I mean, we. The. The bloke who, the, The. The. The Bear, as we called him, the big bloke that used to do it for us had gone off to be a plumber or something, you know, and so we had some bloke, you know, who, poor bloke, had never, ever Refueled a car in his life. And I think, I can't remember, I think it was one of the pit stops. We were a lot longer, but we were so far ahead it didn't make any difference. But there were end where the thing could have gone off the rails and we managed to, you know, Monaco just to sort of move forward a little bit. You know, we had those sort of fancy wheel covers which had a cutout for cooling and what have you. They were put on the wrong way around. So they weren't, you know, cooling the wheels. They were doing the opposite. And, you know, you had to race, you know what, you qualified. So they were, they were on the wrong way around for qualification, which didn't matter because you're only doing a couple of laps. And we realized it and went to the fi and said, look, we put wheel covers on the wrong way around. Can we change them the right way around for the race? And they said, no, that's what you qualified, so that's what you're racing. So I mean, I mean, I could go through lists of things that could have gone wrong, but, you know, again, it was just. The team just did an outstanding job. And in the lead up to Melbourne, the teams had been running to build the cars. They were on three shifts. So it was literally back to back, eight hour shifts, you know, 24 hours to get the thing there. You know, the winning in Melbourne was, you know, the best thing about it. And, you know, clearly people respect the views of the fans and the media and what have you, but the thing that kind of is almost sort of, you know, brings tears to your eyes even today is, you know, when we won, the two cars came down the pit lane and every team was, you know, all the mechanics, all the engineers were, you know, clapping them down from

Damien Jay

all the other teams. It was like a God of honor.

Nick Fry

It was God of honor.

Damien Jay

It was. It was mad.

Nick Fry

Unbelievable. And I remember after that everyone hated us because obviously we won. But that was.

Damien Jay

I remember seeing you at Ross not. Do you remember that after that result, you and Ross were in tears?

Nick Fry

Yeah, we were, yeah. And part of it was it was emotional release. And clearly a lot of it was to do with, you know, the fact that we just made redundant a large number of people. I mean, this, this was not an easy gig to do. But, you know, just what did you

Damien Jay

say to each other in that moment?

Nick Fry

I don't think we said anything apart from a big hug, as I remember, I think into each other's arms.

Interviewer/Host (possibly Nick or another host)

I'm intrigued about how you go then, from being the hunter to being the hunted. You know, you spoke very much around this challenge state of we're constantly chasing the next target, and now you've got a target on your back. What did that do?

Nick Fry

I mean, I think. And people underestimate that. I think being a hunter is a lot easier than the hunters. And, you know, the team has done a fantastic job subsequently. You know, okay, it's had its ups and downs, but basically, it's always been there or thereabouts at the top. And, you know, they didn't screw up what we'd left them. You know, they continued to build on it. And that, you know, may sound disparaging, and it's meant as the opposite, which is to do that is being hunted is really difficult because you've got a target on your back. Everyone's out to get you. And in Formula one in those days, not only were the other teams out to get you, but, you know, Bernie was out to make life difficult for you as well, for various reasons. So you felt everyone was against.

Damien Jay

And that was your story of that season. Do you remember? Because one of my abiding memories is that you were really open. It was obviously a British driver. It was the first time on the BBC, if you remember. So we spent a lot of time together interviewing you, interviewing Ross a bit less, interviewing Jensen a lot. And it was open, it was easy, and it was light, and it was like, look at this great story. And then things started to change, and I remember going into your motorhome in Monza, and Jensen, we both know him, what a great guy. He was silent. He wouldn't talk. He looked haunted. He looked nervy and anxious. He sat down, gave really curt, short answers. And I remember thinking, man, like, he is seriously feeling the pressure at this point.

Nick Fry

Yeah, I mean, I think people have a tendency to underestimate, you know, that desire to be Formula one world Champion or, you know, Champions League winner or whatever. You know, that is something that those people have aspired to since they were 4 years old, you know, and, you know, as we all know in sports, the closer you get to the goal, the more difficult it gets. And, you know, I don't think it's possible to really explain adequately in words just the level of pressure there is when you're that close to that lifetime achievement. And, you know, we were still up against it. I mean, I had to raise, I mean, the cost of going to a race. In those days, for us, the minimum we could do it for was about a million Quid. So just to stay even on the bank balance, pardon me, every race I had to raise a million pounds. And, you know, so we weren't well off. I mean, Red Bull at that time were rumored to be spending about 3 million or 2 or 3 million a race in terms of performance upgrades between, you know, the start of the season and about 2/3 of the way through. I think we spent about 600 grand in total, you know, on improving the car.

Damien Jay

It just wasn't the money because we

Nick Fry

haven't got the money. And what we were trying to do, because we had no idea, you know, Mercedes would come along and buy the team, we were trying to eke out what we got for as long as possible. So, you know, we had to buy time so we could not afford to splurge on anything. So the drivers were under, you know, a lot of pressure. Firstly, they couldn't crash. They had to produce the results and, you know, the others were catching up, which we knew they were would because, you know, they realized that, you know, how the double diffuser works. You know, thing in our favor was that it wasn't an easy thing. You couldn't just bolt it onto your car. You had to go back and do so. We had three or four months of, you know, where we were in an advantageous position, but we knew especially Red Bull were going to catch us up. And if you look at the stats, the Red Bull in qualifying was quicker than us fairly quickly. You know, we were just very good in a race situation and we were brilliant on strategy and the drivers did a great job, et cetera, et cetera. But, you know, the pressure was, you know, just massive and, you know, it is entirely. If Jensen was sitting here, he knows that I said you already. He bottles, but he didn't bottle in a kind of a way that shouldn't be expected. The pressure was immense and you know, he had to perform and you know, and he's, he's a brilliant driver and he's consistent, but ultimately he wasn't driving the fastest car. We had the kick up because we turn the tap on a little bit in terms of, of money and improvement. So we gave them, you know, a bit of the end and you know, we won in Italy and Rubens won one of the races and you know, but it was tough and I think, you know, that the pressure at the end, if he hadn't did what he did in Brazil, I think that would have been it. I, I don't think we'd have. He'd have won the World Championship.

Damien Jay

What, you think you would have. What you mean quit?

Nick Fry

No, not quit. I, I think that, you know, if we'd have gone to the last race, I think that would have been, you know, probably the, the straw that broke the camel's back and Vettel was, was super quick, etc. Etc. So. But Jensen had done well previously in Brazil. I mean, it was a track that quite, you know, suited him and, you

Damien Jay

know, and how did you help him when he was under such pressure?

Nick Fry

And I think it's really difficult to help an athlete apart from doing the things you would normally do to any individual. I think the thing that with Jensen always worked well. I mean, his late lamented father was brilliance. And John really understood the role as a dad versus the role, you know, as a boss. And, you know, behind the scenes, you know, not just in 2009, but for the difficult years that preceded that. You know, John and I would talk on the phone quite frequently and Jensen would be, you know, not so happy about something or the other and, you know, we'd have a sort of chat on the phone and it's like, you take that angle and I'll take this angle and we'll persuade him to do it. So, you know, having that level of support, John was just brilliant, brilliant as a dad with arm around his shoulder and, you know, you do the best you can, you know, and Ross and I did the best we could on the boss side to coax him along. But the reality is, I think, you know, we got that far from blowing it. And it wasn't one thing, it was, you know, the fact we didn't have the money to spend on the car. The car wasn't dominance, you know, Jensen was under huge pressure. The other drivers were especially Sebastian was, you know, doing extremely well and extremely talented. So it did come to a bit of a hiatus, but we got there.

Interviewer/Host (possibly Nick or another host)

And is there a difference? Because I'm conscious, as you've described this story, that the pressure on you seems almost constant and unrelenting. But then you reach this crucible where the pressure seems to become more acute. Was there a difference on you as well? And if so, how did you deal with it?

Nick Fry

Yeah, I think, I think, you know, I don't think any of us can sort of, you know, run away from the fact that it does get to you. You know, you get more ratty and you probably do some of the wrong things and that you make decisions because you're under pressure, you know, to do so and you're not sleeping. You do get, you know, Very tired. But I think it is a matter of just trying not to do things differently. You know, it's a football match, you go into it and you try and win that football match. The fact, you know, it's the FA cup final versus, you know, an early game season, you know, if you start doing things differently then you know you're going to get be all over the place. So I think, you know, you've got to try and this works. We know it works. Let's not do a knee jerk reaction and start doing something different because God knows where that takes you if you start trying to make it up as you go along. So I think actually just trying to keep the same process going is, is really important.

Damien Jay

I think I'm right in saying that you slept through your 1, 2 Monaco.

Nick Fry

Yeah, I did. I, I'd been. Because that's when, you know you're working hard. I'm working hard. I, I've been in me and Monaco is difficult anyway. But we've been working really hard on a, we had a gambling sponsor which, you know, I've been working on very heavily and they were going to take the whole car. I mean, I won't say which company it was, but we were well down the line with a car that was 100 gambling.

Damien Jay

Which would have eased all the financial issues.

Nick Fry

Yeah, it would have eased all the financial issues. But at the same time Mercedes started, you know, talking to us, you know, just a little bit later about, you know, them investing in the team and you know, when I told them what we were up to, they were like, no way, you know, so, so.

Damien Jay

But from a moral perspective.

Nick Fry

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It didn't fit the brand's profile quite understandably. So. But anyway, I had been schmoozing. I think it's probably the right world, various sponsors and what have you. So, so literally, I mean, in Monaco, you know, once the cars had gone around the first corner, I was, you know, in, in the garage or in the, in the pit area in the middle where it's immensely noisy and, and fell asleep literally over my computer. What, you know, with the data and all the other stuff with the engineers on the, the sort of the, the pit wall in Monaco, slightly different. You're not on the pit wall, you have a lot of them are inside. But anyway, it was all going on and next thing I knew, Nicola aforementioned Armstrong came up and said, you know, Ross wants you to go onto the podium. And you're like, oh. So I was like, oh yeah, did we win? It was, you know, it was kind of like. And then, of course, you know, those who might remember it, Jensen, because we had no idea what the hell we were doing, instead of driving round to, you know, in front of the royal family at the end of the pit lane, he stopped at the beginning of the pit lane. And no one quite knew where the car or the driver was. And, you know, there was the memorable moment where Jensen sprinted down the main straits, iconic and sort of jumped into. Jumped into my arms, as it were. So it was quite a memorable occasion.

Damien Jay

And obviously the highest of all the highs would have come in Brazil when you won the world title. I remember we were in the garage, all the press were in there. Jensen appeared. It was this sense of relief. And I don't think that anyone really understands the Brawn story until this conversation, because it's been romanticised as we bought a team for a pound and we were successful. But what you've just told us is actually the truth that, like, you weren't buying a Formula London team, you were buying a lot of stress and a lot of debt and a lot of emotional baggage and a lot of challenge. What have we also got wrong about winning? Because I think we think that that's just pure joy. What did it really feel like?

Nick Fry

I think the reality is initially is just immense relief. It's not. I mean, there's all the jumping up and down and spraying champagne and what have you, but I think there is definitely an element of, thank God that's over. And we eventually got there and I would say it wasn't until the night after the Abu Dhabi Grand Prix, which was the last race. And so I can't remember what result we got, but it was kind of okay, but nothing very. But the pressure was off. And the night after the Abu Dhabi Grand Prix, I remember we went from the nightclub to the airplane, you know, on the. You know, the next morning, directly from the club to the plane. And that was when, you know, the real fun. But I think, you know, I'm pretty sure it's the same for most sports people. You know, when you win, it's exciting and what have you, but it does take a lot of time to process it and to calm down and to actually sort of reflect on what you've achieved. So, you know, I think it's such an exhausting process and, again, difficult to put adequately into words. But, you know, you really empathize with other people in sports because, you know, when you've achieved something really impressive, which you work for for a long period of time, when you eventually get there. It's definitely a sort of, you know, thank God that's over. We managed to do it and then you enjoy it.

Interviewer/Host (possibly Nick or another host)

We recently spoke to Nico Roseberg, who spoke about the idea that it took more than it gave success. When you think of that balance in terms of what you got from it versus what it cost you, how do you reflect on that?

Nick Fry

No, I would say, and it's not just in this particular instance, but I've sort of been fortunate enough managed to be involved with winning World Rally Championship with the late Richard Burns and Petter Solberg. You know, we made something of Aston Martin for a period of time. I mean, I've been blessed with lots of, you know, things which are humbling, but they've been worth every single, you know, moment of the investments. And, you know, I think if, you know, clearly you have to have a level of talents, you know, in whatever you do, whether it's what you do or whatever, there is an element of. Of talent. But the thing that, you know, I truly believe it's the coming together of not just having the talent, but putting in the efforts. And it's hard work, you know, and when you're lucky enough to do the series that we did with Keanu, you know, it's really easy to see why Keanu Reeves has had a succession of, you know, from 20 years old to now. I think he's just gone 60, never being without work. You know, why is it because he works damn hard, he turns up on time, you know, he's properly briefed, he, you know, is just someone who can be relied on to produce the goods. And I think that, you know, it's worth every penny of that time, efforts, the things you give up, you know, to achieve what the. What you have achieved. And, you know, I think. I think if you'd have asked me at, you know, 16 years old from a state school in South London, you know, did I think I was going to achieve something? Yes, I did, because, you know, my parents, you know, did make me believe. But, you know, I think it's been worth every single thing. And I would say to anyone, you know, if you're going to do it, just go for it. Don't mess around, you know, just, you know, if it's going to take, you know, 80% of your efforts to put in a reasonable performance, you may as well put in 100% and just have a chance of having a great performance. And you've got to put yourself in the position where the third elements, you know, apart from A bit of talents, you know, hard work is a bit of luck. But I write luck with a small L. And what I mean by that is, you know, if you can get yourself in the, the top group, you know, the, the top three, if everything comes together on the day, you will win. Now, that's not luck, you know that, that, that is, you know, you've put in a hell of a lot of time and effort to get yourself in the frame where you might have a chance and then it might come together if you, if you're fortunate. But I disagree with Nico. I think it's worth every moment of that sacrifice. But don't do it half heartedly. If you're going to do it, then do it properly.

Damien Jay

I love this headline that I've seen everywhere in the last few years that you bought a Formula one team for a pound. The very Formula one team you bought for a pound, won the World Championship with, then sold, was recently valued at $6 billion. Is there any part of you that now looks and thinks, I wish I'd kept hold of that team?

Nick Fry

The answer is not one. And I think one thing I've learned, because I've gone on to run other companies and work with private equity investors and what have you, and I think that the thing you've got to focus on the whole time is what you got and not what you might have got, because what you might have got is nothing at all. And you don't know what the future holds. The reality is that the Braun deal, in my view, was almost the perfect deal. I mean, for Ross and myself, we bought it for nothing and we sold it for a lot more than nothing. So that was nice for us. The employees got just a fantastic new owner and they got on to win the World Championship multiple times. Relations between all of us are, you know, really good, you know, and then, you know, with Toto, you know, I know I can text him. I saw Susie a couple of weeks ago. You know, there's friendly relations on that side. I know any of the Mercedes senior people. So, yeah, and they would sort of respond to emails or help or whatever. And I think for everyone, yeah, maybe apart from Honda, it worked out as just a great deal. And frankly, that's what you want, is for as best as possible everyone to feel that they got a fair deal out of it. And who knows what might have happened if we'd have kept it, which wasn't really ever on the cards. But you've got to look at what happened to McLaren and Williams, who clearly were having A few problems at that time and frankly, Williams had Never recovered and McLaren only in the last few years have they recovered. So, you know, we might be billionaires or we might be bus. So, you know, it's not even a thought that crosses my mind. And I think also Ross especially and myself to a lesser extent have been doing Formula one for quite a long time. And the reality is it's arduous and I think that I won't say we both had enough because we both went on and I'm still involved in the business and Ross obviously went on to great things with FoM, but it's never concerned me or something. I don't lay in bed thinking about. You're very thankful for what you got and what you didn't get is completely irrelevant.

Interviewer/Host (possibly Nick or another host)

Is that mindset something that you've learned or was that always in place to focus on what you do have rather than and what you wish could have been?

Nick Fry

I think, you know, maybe it's partly my background. I was the first member of my family to go to university. You know, I went to a bog standard state school in South London. And you know, we lived in a kind of very modest, you know, house and you know, we weren't poor. You know, I don't want to make out that, you know, we didn't have food on the table, far from it. But it wasn't a particularly wealthy background. But you know, we were just kind of the same as anyone else. So from where, you know, we were to where we've got to is, you know, a huge step. And I think you've always got to look at that, you know, people who started with quite a lot and then made a little bit more, you know, those who didn't have much and then made a big step, you know, it's quite a sense of achievement. But you know, I've always been a sort of forward looking person and you know, to be honest, I think yes, maybe it is something you can learn, but I've always been that way, you know, I just don't look backwards. And I think it is a, a characteristic of, you know, top sports people because if you dwell on, you know, what might have happened or you know, the putt you missed or what have you, then it gets inside your head, you know, to, to get to the top level. You make a lot of mistakes along the way and you just kind of, you've got to get by that, you know, you miss the penalty and it's happened. So what happened to a lot of, you know, very good sports people and you get on with it and in fact it helps you build as an individual. And maybe that's just how I've always been. So it's not something I've particularly had to learn. But I think if you're not like that, you do need to learn it because, you know, if you do dwell on the issues, then it's going to have a negative effects. You just got a plough on. And I think, you know, it's a characteristic of leadership is that if you want to be a leader, then things are going to go wrong. If you want to be a follower, that's fine, it's your choice. But you're not going to be a leader unless you, you know, you're at the front. And if you're at the front, you know, there are things you're not going to be able to see and you know you're going to fall over every so often. If you don't want to fall over, don't be a leader. But I think you just got to keep plowing forward and you are a

Damien Jay

testament to what happens if you fully commit to something. I mean, I would just say to finish off, this is not a story that had ever happened before. I truly believe in the world of private finance that Formula One has now got involved in, this never happens again. You did something truly remarkable. I'm not surprised that Keanu Reeves wanted to create a series about it because it is a story worthy of Hollywood. And thank you so much for the last hour or so, taking us deep into what really went on rather than just the romantic headlines.

Nick Fry

No, it's my pleasure. And hopefully there'll be a movie next. You never know.

Damien Jay

You never know who would play you.

Nick Fry

Oh, Tom. Maybe I can see a bit of

Damien Jay

Tom Cruise about you.

Interviewer/Host (possibly Nick or another host)

Mel Gibson.

Nick Fry

Exactly. Thank you very much, Nick.

Damien Jay

So nice to see you again.

Nick Fry

Pleasure,

Damien Jay

Damien Jay. I really enjoyed that because obviously I got to spend that season quite deeply involved in what was going on with Braun. And I probably interviewed Nick at most races because often the drivers were full on and they wouldn't tell you everything. Ross Braun didn't really want to do much media and Nick made himself available because he knew, as the commercial guy, that the more they were on the telly, the better it was for potential sponsors and for telling the story. But I still thought, until this conversation that Honda had basically given them the money to survive the year, right? And it was like, well, we've got a fast car and we've got money to survive the year, so this will be Fun, actually, when he sits there and tells you about the stress and the pressure and the overwhelm and the exhaustion and the need to raise a million quid every. I mean, these races are often. Every week.

Interviewer/Host (possibly Nick or another host)

Yeah, yeah.

Damien Jay

A million quid every week. He had to find personally or that team doesn't go to a race. It was the most incredible story of actually what goes on behind the headlines and the fact we often romanticize these stories.

Interviewer/Host (possibly Nick or another host)

What I loved on that was that you went through a couple of perspective shifts there when he was telling you things like about the Honda deal and then when they're about the. The Mercedes engine.

Damien Jay

Yeah. And eventually nab. I mean, you know, let's just be really clear here. Ron Dennis was anti Mercedes, giving them the engine because he had that engine in his McLaren. Ron obviously didn't win that battle. If he'd have won that battle, there's a pretty strong argument that Lewis Hamilton might not have ended up going to that team because they had the Mercedes engine. So it became the Mercedes team. They are then the guys that went and got Lewis Hamilton. That was a. That negotiation that Nick did there for that engine has caused a seismic shift in the whole Formula one universe for

Interviewer/Host (possibly Nick or another host)

the last Sliding Doors moment.

Nick Fry

But.

Interviewer/Host (possibly Nick or another host)

But what I mean is, though, I was interested because there was a couple times when you went, oh, I never

Damien Jay

thought of that and I didn't see

Interviewer/Host (possibly Nick or another host)

it from that perspective. So what was it that that conversation with Nick has sort of shifted for you?

Damien Jay

I think it's a reminder that we all see the world through our own eyes and actually, as long as we have an opinion, we can't grow and we can't learn. The more that we're just interested in finding out what actually went on, then that's where the growth lies for all of us.

Interviewer/Host (possibly Nick or another host)

Yeah.

Damien Jay

What about you?

Interviewer/Host (possibly Nick or another host)

I love the story about the double diffuser. Not because of the double diffuser, of the technical aspects of it, but the culture that had been in place. That meant a young lad, and in turn speaking in his second language, could feel confident enough to put his hand up and have an opinion, knowing that he was going to be listened to and that he wasn't going to be made to feel silly even if the idea didn't work. That, to me was really powerful as an indication of like lifting up the rock and looking into a culture and really seeing that granular detail. It reminded me when he said, this isn't putting it on the wall. It reminded me when Steve Hanson, the New Zealand rugby coach, went, rules are to guide the fearful it's behavior that just allows people to understand. And that example from Nick, there was a guy that was just role modeling. Psychological safety, trust, diversity of opinion, all of that was encapsulated in that one story.

Damien Jay

I think it's interesting that you've picked up on that and absolutely correct, because I think actually we look at the hard things that won the title for brawn in 2009, but the soft side, the culture, the internal atmosphere in that team, that's the reason why people stepped up, delivered, did the jobs of five people, pushed the team through, went with less sleep, did it on less money. You're totally right. That Brawn GP title win in 2009 was a victory for Culture.

Interviewer/Host (possibly Nick or another host)

Yeah, definitely. And there was one other thing that that stood out for me was the idea of a challenge versus a threat state. The hunter versus the hunted. And the fact is that they could have seen themselves as being hunted in terms of the. What had gone on with Honda, the fact that they were up against it or the teams were trying to chip them off, but they had this idea that we were hunting, that they put themselves on the front foot of going after unprecedented success. And I think it's a subtle mindset shift, but it's a really powerful one that any of us can think about in our own lives.

Damien Jay

Appreciate it. Thank you very much, mate.

Interviewer/Host (possibly Nick or another host)

Thank you, mate.

Damien Jay

Look, can I just say that almost everyone watching us talk right now is not a subscriber to high performance. It would make a huge difference if you can hit subscribe or hit follow wherever you're listening to or watching this. You can check out so many other Formula one conversations in our archive, but whatever you do, come back next time for another different view of the world and our conversations on high performance. See you then.

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