A

Before we get into today's episode, a massive thank you to Apple Podcasts for including High performance in their 2026 creators we love campaign. If you've just found the show, welcome. Nice to have you with us. Head to Apple Podcasts to see mine and Damien's favorite episodes from the last six years of High Performance.

B

What's going on? I'm Arch Manning, Vori athlete and college quarterback. Whether I'm running, training, traveling, or just unwinding at home, I love doing it in my core shorts from Vuori. With a breathable box of brief liner, they're quick to dry, super versatile, and stand up to even my most intense training sessions. Plus, they come in three inseams and a ton of colors. Ready to try a pair? Go to vuori.com arch and get 20% off at checkout. I think you're going to love them as much as I do. That's V-U-R-I.com arch and get 20% off your first order. Exclusions apply. Visit the website for full terms and conditions. Not only will you receive 20% off your first purchase, but enjoy free shipping on any US orders over $75 and free returns. Have a great day.

C

You've never been one to settle. Stand down or stand still. You're a lifelong learner, energized by excellence. There's a fire inside you you can't ignore. You've got competition to outrun, momentum to build on, and your own high standards to meet. Stop now. Not a chance. At Capella University, we help you catch what you're chasing because you've always had the drive. Now go earn the degree. Capella University. What can't you do? Visit Capella Edu to learn more.

A

Best thing that's ever happened to you financially.

D

Go easy.

E

Sold by car on Carvana. Amazing offer, really.

A

I hit 200 on a scratcher.

E

Did the scratcher come to your house and hand you a check?

C

No.

E

How many scratchers did you hit to get that? I hit a button on Carvana.com once.

D

Okay, that's fair.

E

It's like the lottery, except you always win.

A

Not like the lottery at all, actually.

E

Exactly. Inexplicably good offers worth bragging about. Sell your car today on Carvana. Pick up. These may apply.

A

Welcome along to another episode of High Performance. Today we're explaining to you why saying no is the most powerful thing you can do, because you would be amazed. And we'll talk about them in a moment. We'll hear some clips from some legendary conversations on High Performance but you'd be amazed by how often even high achieving, successful people who you think have got it all together spend too much of their time saying yes to things that they should say no to. How are you, Damien?

D

I. I'm good, Jake. Are you?

A

Yeah, really good. Thanks. So the reason for having this conversation today is, is twofold, really. Actually, no, I'm going to say it's threefold. First of all, so many members of our community reach out to us, send us messages, DM us saying I just say no, saying I just don't say no. Often enough I say yes too much. The second reason for doing this is because I know it's a. The second reason for doing this is because I know it's something that you have struggled with again and again and again over the years. And the third reason is because, as you know, I too struggled with it until I saw a very simple single line on social media a few months ago that said no is a one word sentence. Right. And that was so good for me because I hate saying no. Like so many people, being a people pleaser is, is kind of great. I actually think generally, Damien, it's great to be a people pleaser. Like how can it be a negative to want to make other people happy? But obviously there's a tipping point and I always felt I had to over explain myself when I was giving someone a no answer. So that idea that no is a one word sentence I think is pretty powerful for people.

D

I think it's brilliant. I think there's a word for what we're describing today called sociotropy, which is that right? Yep. I looked it up because I knew that we were going to talk about this very topic. And you're right, it's something I've struggled with for, for a long time. So trying to understand it before trying to understand how to do something different was really important to me. So sociotropy is the concern with making other people happy and maintaining social order. So it's people pleasing in its very definition. And in one study, though, this is the interesting thing that really stopped me in my tracks, Jake, was that when participants were asked to identify their friend's best and worst characteristics, while most people associated with people pleasers with having an agreeable personality and generally regarded it as being a positive thing, some people felt you could overplay that too much. And surprisingly, being a people pleaser was also seen as a negative trait. So the simplest method to know if you're suffering from sociotropy, listening to this today, is to know if Your desire to please other people has gone too far where it starts to interrupt your own life or cause you difficulty. This episode is exactly the one for you.

A

Okay, well, let's be honest then. Have you done anything this week where you said yes and you should have said no?

D

No, I haven't, actually. No, it's been a good week for that, like. And this is one of the things that I'm gonna. We'll talk about a little while later on in the episode. But what I've learned to do is to create a buffer zone because again, there's research on this that says that, like, my instinct in a situation is just go, yep, okay, fine, and then I'll work out a way to do it. But just creating a couple of simple sentences like, can I think about that or can I just get back to you? Can I just check my diary has sort of stopped me rushing headlong into just saying yes, even when it might come at a cost to me. What about you? Have you. Because I like the one sentence line no 1.

A

Yeah, it's good to know, but I'm still rubbish at saying no. Well, I should say yes.

F

I should say no.

A

Well, I'll tell you where I do it a lot, but I don't regret it is with the kids. So, for example, I've been working a lot this week. I've been in the London. So we're recording this on a Friday. Yesterday I was in London and Ipswich. The day before I was in Norwich. The day before I was in Switzerland. The day before I was in London. The day before I was in Norwich. So five days, five different cities, every single day. And what I have said yes to every time is coming home and still taking the kids to school or still picking them up from school or still going to watch them play in their school sports or do their music. Now that is definitely a bit of people pleasing there because I, I want my kids to know that dad was always there. Right. But I actually, I'm. I'm not kind of including that in this conversation. Right.

F

Yeah.

A

Because I think we have to be really clear about this. There are certain things where you're a people pleaser or where you're a yes person when you should be a no person. But they align really closely with your core values and with your purpose and your why.

G

Right.

A

So I think in those situations, it's actually better for my health, but to say yes rather than no. But also this week, so a good example was a little while ago, I agreed to help out my mate on Something last night and I knew that I had to be on the 5am train out of Norwich. So I was up at half four, up at four, out the house at half four, on the train at five into London. I did a whole morning of work and then I went across to a whisper group and did a big presentation to the team there. And then I went and did a two hour event in the evening. Someone that I really like that it was like a. I wasn't paid paid for it, it was just like going to help someone out. And again I like. It's really hard this because I don't regret the fact that I made the effort to do that. But certainly today I've not been a great husband because Harriet got up and sort of sorted everything out while I was kind of recovering in bed. So I'm still struggling with this thing. I tell you what I have learned, which I think might be valuable for people listening to this is when I have decided to give people searing honesty for my reasons for no help. Yes, no can be a one word sentence. I still haven't reached that point in my life because I still think it's kind of rude just to go, no. Imagine if someone says to me on WhatsApp, hey, can you. Or even on like a DM on Instagram, can you come to a charity event I'm putting on next month for some friends of mine. No, I mean it doesn't sound great, but what I do say to people is I say, look, I'm really at the moment just trying to juggle a lot of things, you know, from the podcast to whisper group to my kids, to my personal relationships. There are friends I haven't seen for a long time. You know, my parents are getting older and they need a little bit more attention and I do need to spend some time on my own mental health and physical health. Otherwise I know it impacts me and I just, I going to be totally honest with you. By the time all of those things are stacked up, I know I could say yes to you now, but I will let you down or I won't give you the best of me. So I'm just going to have to say no. And I'm really sorry, but if things change, I'll come back to you. When I've sent that message to three or four people, every time they've gone, I feel exactly the same. I'm having all of those challenges myself and I don't blame you. Look after yourself and if ever anything changes, let me know. So I actually think that Sometimes, you know when you dread a conversation that's never as bad when it actually happens? Yeah, yeah. I feel like saying no is like a micro version of that. Every single day we dread saying no because of the reaction, but actually it isn't as bad as we think it will be anyway, you know?

D

Yeah, I like that. I certainly think that, like, being honest with people and just telling them exactly where we are at that moment in time. Like, I remember a great line, somebody said that, like, when people tell you they don't have time, it's a sign of where you fit on their priority list, not yours, you know, and it's like, sometimes you have to say, I know it's a priority for you, but it isn't for me at this moment. I've got other things, like in your case, the kids, your own mental health or the working commitments. I think that's really honest.

A

I think that a lot of people will be listening to this now, though, thinking, well, why do we do this? Why do we feel the need to People, please? Because I don't think actually that it's about trying to be nice or trying to make other people happy. I think there's much more, a biological or a psychological version of this. And do you remember when we had Gabor Mate on high performance?

D

Oh, yeah.

A

You spoke to him about the fact that you're a people pleaser and he kind of. He took you right back to your childhood and said. He was like, why did you find it so hard to make your parents happy? Do you remember?

F

Yeah, yeah.

A

And I think you were a little bit. Because obviously you, you know, your mum's still with us, your dad sadly isn't. But you hold your parents in really high regard, as a lot of us do. And I kind of. I remember thinking, whoa, how's Damian going to react to Gabor basically blaming his mum and dad for the fact that he feels the need to be a people pleaser?

E

Yeah.

D

No, no. Well, again, I'll tell you another conversation we had that Gabor one made me reflect deeply. Alain de Botton, when we sat down with him and he spoke about some research from a guy called Donald Winnicott, a psychotherapist that talks about, we all have two selves, the true self and the false self, and if we don't create that space for the true self of who we really are, the person that goes, no, I don't want to do that. No, it's not an interest of mine, it's not something I want to do. If, if that gets Shut down early enough, he talks about. The consequence of it is the false self becomes one of two things. You either become like a rebel where you just rip everything up and you sort of disrupt everything and often sabotage yourself, or you become this chronic people pleaser. And I think when I. I did that conversation with Gabor where he was challenging me and I was explaining I was the second of four kids and, you know, you know, my brother was a little bit older than me and my younger brother came along very soon after me, that even from a young age that I was almost like trying to get attention of my parents and people around. And then I realized that I didn't have the space to have that true self. So I became that chronic people pleaser of just trying to say yes just in the hope that people will give you time, they'll give you a bit of attention and focus. So it made me a lot more comfortable with it. I think when you. I think sometimes that willingness to just do a bit of saving self reflection and not try and come up with some nice narrative, but almost like challenge yourself to go, actually, this was me and this is my situation, but I don't want to continue doing that is what we're trying to offer for anyone listening today as well.

A

I think. I think this is really interesting, actually,

D

because

A

I'm just trying to find it now. You're. You're absolutely bang on with a quote that I saw a while ago about being a people pleaser. Here it is. Yeah, I love this. Where am I abandoning myself to keep the peace?

G

Ooh.

A

What do you think?

F

Yeah, but.

D

Well, again, like, I think that time, you know, like you staying on late to sort of chat with somebody when, you know, I need to be in bed here because I'm shattered, or, you know, this idea of sometimes just sat in a room and not speaking up when you know that an idea doesn't resonate with you. Like, there's so many times in life where they're often like micro interactions, really small things, but when you start to abandon it just. It's like you're dismantling who you are, your true self. Brick Bright break. And. And then often what I've noticed is the pattern. If we go back to that Donald Winnicott thing of the true self or the false self, I've noticed that sometimes when I sort of be. I go too far with the people please, and I then swing the other way back and then become the manic rebel, you know what I mean? Then you start going, oh, this I'm not interested in this. Like, I'm just going to tell them to off rather than actually just have a conversation that says, I'm just tired at the moment.

A

I know. I've seen you do that only a few times, not very many. I must be honest. It's not a common. It's not a common thing for you to start telling people to f off.

D

No, no, no. But. But again, if you start to recognize some of this stuff, you start to realize that make an intervention a lot earlier rather than wait to go to one of those two polar opposites and because both of them cost you.

A

I think so. I think you're totally right. And there's a. As you. I mean, I don't know if people can see this, whether there's video on this. I think there probably is, but I'm in my. I'm in my office recording because I had a disaster in the room where I was meant to be recording, where I normally record. But you like this poster on my wall, didn't you?

D

Yeah, go on, read it, read it.

A

That is from one of my favorite artists. His name, you can find him on Instagram. Real Hackney Dave is his name. The artwork that he produces I absolutely love. And this one says, just a gentle reminder to stop about and maybe start doing that thing that will probably make you a much happier person. Through his artwork, he says these things that are great and actually that plays so nicely into what we're talking about, you know, stop about and do the thing that makes you a much happier person. You can't see this, but above the door in my study is another quote. Who said this? Damien? This above all, to thine own self be true.

D

That's a Shakespeare quote into it.

A

Indeed it is. Which I think again, is great for people pleasing because Shakespeare isn't going, hey, make sure you're liked. Hey, make sure everyone is happy all the time. It basically says, before you try and be loyal to everyone else, don't betray yourself. So I think like, this is, you know, we're going back here well over 400 years, right? And even then, Shakespeare was giving us a quote for people pleasing to thine own self be true. Because I think what we don't realize is the cost of this stuff. And we should go to some. Some clips from our show. In a moment, people go, oh, well, you know, sometimes I just say yes too often or I don't say no often enough. We're abandoning ourselves to be accepted by others. So therefore we think, well, oh, this is fine because I'm gaining Love because everyone likes me.

B

Yeah.

A

Okay. You're gaining love at the expense of losing yourself.

D

Well, I mean, apply this politically, Jay, Think about recently. We've had Keir Starmer step down as Prime Minister and we had him on the podcast, and we both came away and thought he was a really decent, authentic man. You know, we enjoyed his company. We went for a drink with him afterwards and. And now we've got Andy Burnham potentially taking over from him. And look at the debate. People just want to know I. Are you somebody that acts with integrity? Are you somebody who does what you say you'll do? It's such an important factor that we look at it for our political leaders and, and often we don't hold the mirror up to ourselves and ask, am I. Am I doing what I'll say I'll do? Am I behaving with integrity and authenticity? So it's a question that we all need to wrestle with. And hopefully some of these clips we'll look at will sort of give us pause for thought and give us a chance to have that reflection.

A

Okay, well, let's do it then. Let's go to. Let's go to a clip from Barry Hearn. How does that sound? Do you like the sound of going straight to a bit of Barry Hearn?

H

Yeah.

D

Well, can I just say, I. I remember reading in his book his top 10 rules for life, and I. I love them because he was. He talked about. He was at an event in New York and he'd been asked to go and do a Q A session, and he jotted them down on the back of a. Of a piece of paper when he was in the taxi going there. Just so he gave himself a structure to think about. And he said that one bit of reflection allowed him to almost identify what were the values that were most important for him. So when I heard them, I thought they sound like the ideal blueprint for the interview that we could do with him. So, yeah, let's listen to this one, because he is.

A

This is the perfect clip, actually, for talking about putting yourself above pleasing other people. So this clip you're going to hear is Barry talking about the fact he was offered £30 million, right, to sell his business, and he walked away from that deal because, yes, would have meant giving away his independence, working with people he didn't like. And you're going to hear him explain what happened. And after he did this, he didn't feel disappointed or sad or worried. He felt cleansed. Here is Barry Hearn. This is episode 168 on high performance.

D

I told him the truth.

G

I said, I don't like either of you and I don't really want to work with people like you. In fact, I don't even want people like you in my world. And they went, oh, the jaw dropped and they left and I felt cleansed. I feel like I've been baptized again. You know, waters had rushed over me and. And there was a stride come out and the chest came out. And I thought, you know, isn't it lovely when you do acquire that discipline of mind where you can actually tell people exactly what you're thinking and those that appreciate it will love you for it, and those that don't, you don't really want to be in their company anyway.

A

I mean, that is a powerful line. I felt cleansed, Damien. I felt cleansed, like I'd been baptized again. What does he say? You know, the waters have rushed over me. And he is a great orator, he's a great storyteller. But it's a great reminder there that we all have morals, we all have standards, we all have beliefs. Until someone puts £30 million in front of us. And this is when it gets tested. This is when you know whether you really are someone who puts yourself above other people. And he's shown it in that moment, you know.

D

Yeah, there's that great George Byrne quote in there, that, I've got principles, and if you don't like them, I've got some others, you know, I think we're only as loyal as the options that we have. So we can all say, oh, I'd never do that. And then somebody dangles your £30 million in front of you and you can do the mental gymnastics to justify it. What I think was really interesting from our chat with Barry, with. There is. And just before that clip that we listened to he talks about, he went and spoke to his wife, and it was his wife that was a. Had that little bit of detachment, who said to him, why are you doing this? This isn't you. You don't like these people. And that gave him almost like the steel in his spine to go back and challenge these Americans and actually pull out of the deal. And again, I think somebody that's there just to remind us of, this is who you like, this is who you say you are, this is what you've told me you are. When you're at your best. Just having somebody in our corner that can remind us of that is a great example of where we can often walk away from a huge life changing some of money like he did.

A

I'm going to let you pick a person from our back catalog in a moment, but can I play one more clip of someone walking away from something?

D

Go on.

A

This is like. This is so different to walking away from 30 million quid by selling your business. And a very different person as well to Barry Hearn. I'm gonna roll forward a few episodes to episode 210 when Katherine Ryan the comedian joined us. And we were talking about the fact that she kind of had to come to terms with there being a lot of men doing the job in television that she would like to do. And instead of her pushing herself forwards, she actually stepped back. And this is a very different example of saying no. And in many ways, this is a selfless no. So I want you to have a listen to this from. From Katherine Ryan.

H

There came a point in my career where I had to stop appearing on that show because I knew that there was just one seat for a woman at that time. And they always put us in the same seat, which was weird. They wouldn't even move us around one seat. We know where that seat was. One woman on every episode. And I knew that if I was sitting in that chair, that I was preventing one of my female peers from having a go. And being on that show was life changing. You would receive so many, so much more exposure, and then people would come to see you on tour and it would really draw people in. It was a game changer of a show. And a lot of people use the word boycott. Katherine Ryan boycotts Mock the Week. I never boycotted it. I just was realistic about the fact that if I want a different woman to be in this chair, it can't be me.

A

What is your definition of high performance?

H

Oh, I think it's competence and relentlessness. And I didn't know a lot about those things until I noticed a lot of people are lacking those qualities. They want to kick back. They can't complete tasks that you ask them to. I think being high performance is wanting to do a lot of things yourself and being able to execute those things.

B

Well,

A

that is a very important, important little clip there, I think, Damien, because there's the same underlying principle, total clarity about her values, which makes the decision easy. So let's just change this slightly for a moment from. From talking about saying no or walking away to actually, how do we do it? Well, we have principles that define us as human beings. We have people we won't work with. In the case of Barry Hearn, we have putting women at the forefront of comedy. Of comedy. Like Katherine Ryan, we have protecting our own mental health, like you have. We have protecting our family, like I've tried to do. I think as soon as we understand ourselves better, then we can make these clear decisions better. And you know what? I think what's really helped me is that with a no often comes guilt. But when you have your principles, your values, when you have your why really clear in your mind about who you are, what you stand for and what you do and don't do, it actually removes that guilt completely because you're like, well, I don't say no to those things because for the good of the world, for the good of myself and the good of others, my direction is this. And I think it was really helpful for Barry and for Catherine, but in totally different ways.

D

Yeah, absolutely. I think there's an idea that psychologists often talk about. They talk about the exit and the entrance. So when we walk away from something and we often feel that we focus on what we're leaving behind. Whereas instead, to make ourselves happier going forward, we need to focus on what we're moving towards, what we're gonna enter instead. So, like Catherine's doing there, she's not walking away from a hit television show. She's walking towards a world where more women are seen and respected and understood. And I think that then allows her to recognize that she's making the world a better place with that one small gesture of making her no. So there's something quite powerful about it. I agree. I mean, again, just for context, do you remember that day when she turned up Catherine? She had nobody with her. She just showed up on her own. And I always think just watching how people treat the whole of the crew, everybody that was there, is a good indication of what type of person they are, what their values are. And she couldn't have been kinder, warmer, or more inclusive to every one of us that was there that day. So I'm not surprised with that story she told us about, you know, trying to lift others up rather than trying to just put them down.

A

For sure. Right, where should we go next?

D

The clip I'd like to go to is we referenced it at the top of the episode, the conversation we had with the brilliant Gabor mate. So Gabor is one of the leading thinkers in terms of the world of psychology, and he spoke about how the inability to say no is a conditioned response. Let's have a listen to the conversation he had with me where he challenged me. Because if for nothing else, it's a good reminder of Understanding that this isn't a personality trait. It is something that we often learn in childhood, and if we learn it well, we can look to unlearn it. Let's have a listen to him.

F

The type brigade was that I wasn't myself, that I didn't have the courage to be myself. I spent too much time trying to please others rather than, you know. So that's what I found as well, is that people didn't know how to say no to other people's demands, were suppressing themselves for the sake of being accepted by others. So therefore, this question. In important areas of your life, either in personal existence or in your work activities, where do you have trouble saying no? If I ask you guys, does anything come up? Do you have trouble saying no? Yeah.

D

I mean, that's a real issue for me.

F

Okay, so would it be. I'm not asking details, but work or personal life or both? Both. Okay. All right. So then the next question follows, which is, what is the impact of your. What is the impact on you of your difficulty saying no?

D

It's often sort of leading myself to physical and mental exhaustion.

F

Exactly. Now, are you both parents?

D

Yep.

F

Okay. What's the word that the kids start saying automatically at age one and a half?

A

No.

D

No.

B

Yeah.

F

Time to put your shoes on. No.

A

Yeah, you're right.

F

No. Why is that? Because nature is smart, and nature knows that we have to develop a barrier behind which we can develop our own will and our own preferences. So that. No. That the child says automatically at that age is their little fence behind which they can develop their own sense of self and their own will if we don't crush it. A lot of people think now they have a monster on their hands. They have to crush it. So now we. Now we have people that don't know how to say no. So the impact is exhaustion, fatigue. It could be frequent colds, could even be serious illness. So it's an important little thing that you're not saying there.

A

We'll be right back after a quick word from our partners. I think that's very helpful for people that clip, don't you, Damian? Because I think sometimes, and I've heard. I've said this about myself. I know you have as well. I'm a people pleaser. We need to reframe this. As I've learned to be a people pleaser.

D

Yes. Yeah, just that one buffer. You know, there's some really interesting research on it. Again, like, I say that this conversation that we had with Gabor, like, when I went away from that. That day. It did make me reflect on it for a lot, a lot longer and go and explore ways in which we can do it. And I found some really interesting research where people evaluated the effects on over 100 people responding to the words I don't versus I can't. So they did it in relation to sort of getting people to make happier, healthier eating choices. So some people that did it were told that when they were offered sort of a dessert, some people had to say, I don't eat dessert rather than I can't eat dessert. And then what they found is that just that one simple tweak in the language that they used. There was later on when people were given a healthier snack, over 60% of the people who said, I don't preferred the healthier snack than the dessert. So the point they're making is that a bit like what you were saying about offering some context rather than just saying no. So just listening to the language we do of saying, I don't do that, it's something that speaks to your values and people understand there's a barrier, there's a line there that I'm not willing to cross, talking about I can't do it. It's almost like I could, but I'm making a choice and it feels like I'm denying myself. So I've learned just as people, I don't work later than 10 o' clock at night. I don't respond to messages after 10 o' clock at night. It's not that I can't do it, I just don't do it. And I think what you see is that people understand where those boundaries and barriers are and most people have found are not willing to disrespect them.

A

The final thing I'd like to say about this before we go and talk about a few other things is I also don't want people to listen to this and be harsher on themselves. I want them to be kinder to themselves. I think this stuff's really hard. I actually think that the kind of people who are people pleasers are the kind of people that I like. They're the kind of people that I like to be around. I really like their energy. I like their desire to make other people happy. I don't think that on the whole, being a people pleaser should be seen as a toxic trait. I think it should be seen as something that can be toxic to you if you allow people pleasing to dominate your thinking and take over your life and stop you from doing the things that you really want to do. But I think on the whole, having other people at the center of your world is not something that we should denigrate or criticize. I just think we need to talk about the fact that there often is balance in this.

D

Yes, definitely. Well, like all these things, I think. I think some of this stuff requires us to understand that are you pleasing the right people in your life, you know, is the first thing to understand. I know I've spoken before about when I've spoken to athletes that are getting abuse off social media and how they cope with it. First thing I do is say write down a list of the people that matter most in your life. And most people, when they do that, come up with parents, partners, children, best friends, whatever it is. And then I say, would they speak to you in the way that you're upset about on social media? And the answer is, of course they wouldn't, because they understand you. They know how to speak to you properly. They know what you're trying to achieve and are only encouraging for it. So they've earned the right for you to please them as well. Anyone outside of that list, well, they've not quite earned the credibility where you should be sacrificing your own happiness or inconvenience in your own day. And that's not selfish. That's being selfless in many ways.

A

Very good. So there you go. Those are our thoughts on people pleasing, along with a few clips from our back catalog. I think what we're really saying is it's great to choose connection. It's not great to choose connection at the cost of yourself. And I think learning to disappoint people without abandoning yourself is really important because I think the goal in life, as Damian's just mentioned from some of these athletes, and certainly I've felt this myself, is not to be liked by everyone, because it's impossible to be liked by everyone. I think the goal in life is to be someone who you like, someone that you respect, and someone who doesn't lose themselves. Damian, I just want to roll back a few episodes when we had Liam Lawson on the show, because that conversation with Liam Lawson, the Racing Bulls F1 driver, continues to generate the most remarkable comments from the audience. And I think we share.

D

Lee?

A

Yeah, and as you know, like, why

D

do you think that is? I mean, I'm interested.

A

Like, well, it's. It's because there aren't very many platforms like high performance, and I think that a lot of people make up their mind. So do you know, you know, I've Spoken to you, haven't I, about the word sonder.

D

Yeah, go on, but tell us again.

A

So sonder is this understanding that everyone's 3D, so everyone has got their issues, their concerns, their fears, they've got a backstory, they've got hopes and dreams, they've got people that love them, they've got stuff that we will never see and never understand, yet we see them as 2D individuals. So people don't see Liam Lawson as a human being, they see him as a Formula one driver. And so a few years ago, he was in an interview and someone said, who. Who are you friends with in F1? And he went, I'm not here to make friends, I'm here to win. And it was kind of clipped out of context. There was no sort of humor to it. And I think it made him look arrogant, which I don't think he is.

D

And.

A

And then he had a few, like, run ins on the track and, you know, F1, since drive to Survive has become more partisan, you know, people really support certain drivers.

D

Yeah.

A

And he seems to be on the receiving end of a lot of criticism. And actually, I think that was a concern for him and I think it was a concern for the team. Do you remember before we started, we were asking about what Life's like in F1, and I said, is there anything that you hate? And he went, public criticism. Then he goes, we're not recording yet, are we? Do you remember? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, he looked really like. Oh, like it gets him all the time. I'm really pleased for him. I'm really pleased for Red Bull. I mean, a good quote that I saw. Sorry, a good comment that I saw from a member of the audience. They said, I came for the Red Bull story, which is the story of Liam being fired by Red Bull. I came for the Red Bull story. I stayed for the human being. Liam Lawson reminded everyone that F1 isn't only speed, it's sacrifice. And you know that clip where he talks about the letter from his brother?

D

I mean, let's just say for a moment when he did that, like, what. What it felt like in the studio, didn't it? I know, like we often say to each other, just let silence do the heavy lifting. But that silence, just for that period when he told us, was really quite palpable, wasn't it?

A

And if you haven't heard it, I'd suggest you find it or you listen to the episode. But basically, Liam's brother wrote a message to their parents saying, if I. If I was a Driver like Liam, would you also spend more time with me? And it was. I mean, his family have sold their house and still don't own a house because they paid for his racing. It's a reminder of the sacrifice to get there. And actually another comment from a member of the audience said this conversation completely changed how I saw Liam behind the headlines, the pressure and the noise, as a young bloke carrying the family sacrifice and still refusing to give up. And then another one. One of the most honest F1 interviews I've watched. The bit about happiness hit hard. Chasing your dream shouldn't mean losing yourself along the way. And I. I've thought a lot about this concept of Liam saying that the one thing that everyone has cost him is happiness. And I just. I still don't know how I feel about it. I'm like. I don't know, like, good, hard stuff shouldn't come for free, but it almost feels like happiness should never be the price. But maybe I'm wrong.

D

Yeah, no, I agree. I mean, I've thought about it a lot because it sort of does make you stop and, like, reflect at a deeper level. And I think, you know, he's 23 years of age, so I get that at that age there's millions of things he could be doing, millions of distractions that he could be sort of enjoying. So I can see how it might. It might look like it's trading happiness and the weight of the family and the sacrifices they've made. I do get that. But I hope that as he gets a little bit older, you know, we know our brains don't mature till we're 25. I think he'll start recognizing that it's the journey and it's not the destination that he should be proud of. And I remember when we spoke to him after the recorder went, mate, you've already won. Like, you're here, you're in the. Like from where you've come from to where you are today. You've already won. You've won at life. So. So give yourself credit for that rather than keep looking at where's, like, where next to go. It's the example you often use, you know, about the Edmund Hillary story, getting to his upper Everest and looking to see where was tire so he could scale that. I think that's. That's natural for guys like Liam. But I hope a bit of maturity for him allows him to be able to give himself far more credit than what he seems to have done.

A

Yeah. I'll finish with this comment from an audience Member Holy gut punch.

F

Hell.

A

Definitely a few moments there where I felt my throat getting tired. It's so hard not to see it from the outsider point of view. You're 23. What do you mean the cost of your dream is happiness? The anecdote about the car from his brother was devastating and, like, they tried to laugh it off a little after, but you could see it really affected all three of them. Liam talking about people having to give up dance, his sisters having to give up dance as well. The sacrifice of his family obviously weighs on him. You can tell. And I think, we think, oh, once you've made it to F1, that sacrifice will be gone. You won't carry that anymore. You never don't carry the sacrifice that your family have made to help you live your dreams.

D

Yeah, that was a really powerful. I really love that. And again, I just want to, if he is listening to this, to Liam, just say thank you for trusting us that you wanted to come and open up and share your vulnerabilities with us. We don't take that for granted.

A

That conversation, for me, is the epitome of what high performance is about. Right, yeah. High performance should be big name guests, well known people, people who've already had a platform, people that we think we know. Right, That's. We know that if we have those people on this show who everyone already has an opinion about, then, you know, people will come to watch them like they did with Liam. But then the key for us is to give people something else. It's to educate the audience. It's to. I think it's to show our audience that people at the top of their game are still struggling with the same things that all of us are struggling with. And that high achievement doesn't mean high happiness, high flow, high joy. You know, everything comes at a price. And I reckon Liam Lawson slots straight in for me in the top five episodes that are the best example of why this show exists.

D

Yeah, definitely. And, you know, if you're listening to this and you enjoyed it, we've got some other crackers coming up soon, haven't we? We've got one guy that's stepping in to the MMA Octagon in a couple of weeks time.

A

First ever world title fight. And again, it wasn't a conversation about mma, was it?

D

No, far from it. Again, when. When you see Ian Machado, Gary's name come up on the. On the podcast list, tune into that one.

A

Absolutely. All right, Damien, thank you so much.

D

Thanks, mate. Really enjoyed that, as always. I enjoy these.

A

Yeah, I Do I love them as well? And make sure that next week you say no to things.

D

Yeah, definitely.

A

You need to say no to.

D

And you too, because I know that you've been working incredibly hard.

A

I've noticed, actually you're very good at saying no to my calls when I ring you. Yeah. Oh, not him again. Reject. All right, have a good one. Can I just say, before we disappear, almost everyone that enjoys this podcast, they don't subscribe. It doesn't cost you a penny to subscribe. It helps to grow our show. It helps us to have bigger reach, attract more incredible people. And all we ask is if you subscribe to this show, we will do our best to give you the very best podcast. Full of honesty, full of trust. Designed purely to improve your life, not to lure you in with, you know, dodgy clickbait headlines or bring you sort of strange so called experts where we don't really know if they are, you know. We want this to be a place of honesty and openness and trust. So we will continue to do that. And all we ask you to do, please, is just hit that subscribe button and come on this journey with us. Remain humble, curious and empathetic and we'll see you next time for another episode of High Performance.

G

What's going on?

B

I'm Arsh Manning, Biori athlete and college quarterback. Whether I'm running, training, traveling or just unwinding at home, I love doing it in my core shorts from Biore. With a breathable box of brief liner, they're quick to dry, super versatile, and stand up to even my most intense training sessions. Plus they come in three inseams and a ton of colors. Ready to try a pair? Go to vuori.com arch and get 20% off at checkout. I think you're going to love them as much as I do. That's vu r I.com arch and get 20% off your first order. Exclusions apply. Visit the website for full terms and conditions. Not only will you receive 20% off your first purchase, but enjoy free shipping on any US orders over $75 and free returns. Have a great day.

C

There's a fire inside you you can't ignore. Stand still. Not a chance. You're a lifelong learner who come this far. Now we are here to help you keep going further. Capella University what can't you do? Visit Capella. Edu to learn more.